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Testing your ideas against reality can be challenging. Not everything will go as planned. It’s about keeping an open mind, having a clear hypothesis and running multiple tests to see if you have enough directional evidence to keep going.
This is the How I Tested That Podcast, where David J Bland connects with entrepreneurs and innovators who had the courage to test their ideas with real people, in the market, with sometimes surprising results.
Join us as we explore the ups and downs of experimentation… together.
Hello, and welcome to the How I Tested That podcast. I'm your host, David j Bland. I'm an author and adviser, and I'm fascinated with testing early stage ideas. I've helped companies all around the world, and in this podcast, I connect with entrepreneurs and innovators who had the courage to test their ideas with real people in the market with sometimes surprising results. Please join us as we explore the ups and downs of experimentation together.
David J Bland:In this episode, we interview Michael Leung. Michael is the CEO and founder of The Flow Group. He's built his company around a simple mission, which is making hearing solutions accessible, affordable, and life changing for people of all ages. We discuss how his own personal experiences have shaped his approach to product development and testing. Specifically, we dive into how he tested his new Open Ear bone conduction headphones with amplification before bringing them to market.
David J Bland:Michael and I chat about how to test hardware products and the need for affordable and effective hearing solutions. Enjoy. Welcome to the podcast, Michael.
Michael Leung:Well, thanks for having me.
David J Bland:I'm so excited to have you on. The topic is kind of near and dear to my heart with kind of assisted hearing. And also, you're in the physical space, which I think is super interesting as well. Because, you know, sometimes we think, oh, well, yeah, it's easier to test your ideas in software. But anything else other than that, oh, use the traditional methods.
David J Bland:And so I'm just really excited where the conversation's gonna go. And if you could just give a little background on yourself for our listeners before we jump in.
Michael Leung:Yeah. For sure. From Calgary, Alberta, Canada, 44 years old. I'm the CEO, founder of the Flow Group, and we promote a new healthy and affordable way of hearing to our open ear bone conduction headphone with a built in amplification that aids hearing for people of all ages from mild, moderate, to even severe hearing loss. And we're trying to go global next year.
Michael Leung:And so far, results are amazing. Some grants coming through, and lots of opportunities are happening right now, so it's exciting.
David J Bland:Yeah. I had the pleasure of visiting Calgary last year for Inventures, and I keynoted one of their sidetracks there. I was just super impressed with all the startup founders in that region and how even some of the local municipalities are trying to help fund things through and then Canadian government trying to fund things through grants and such. I think people are sleeping on Calgary a bit as far as in a entrepreneurial ecosystem.
Michael Leung:Oh, a 100%. Like, any senior home I go to, they always just wanna help, the local people. Right? Just to bring the local people into the market and get them exposure and hype them up, you know, especially as something that's gonna help a lot of people. And so
David J Bland:Yeah. And so maybe give us some background. So it's assisted hearing. It's a device. The problem you're trying to solve, I hope you could explain a little bit about your experience with that and kind of what pulled you into this startup.
Michael Leung:So what pulled me into startup was I have my own disability. So I have a retinitis pigmentosa, which I've lost my peripheral on one side, so I can only have tunnel vision, right? And over those timeframes, I was like walking, you know, leaping off stairs, walking the walls, shoulder checking people, people thought I was going crazy, and then found out that it's just my retinal detachment happened ten years ago and it led into this retinitis pygamosa, but they have no connections at all. So now I could completely lose all my vision one day. It could be tomorrow, it could be two years, twenty, thirty years, right?
Michael Leung:So that pushed me to really get things going, like I had thoughts of doing things like this, but this now really pushed me into, you know, third gear to really get something going. So I don't know of much time, so and over this all the time frame, my family, they own factories in Asia. So they connected me to the right sources and I was able to pitch an idea, we collaborated, we were able to form something that I thought was going to be a good idea. So I had to get samples and I had to trial a lot of different types of samples. A lot of them were pointless, but then you have to trial everything, right?
Michael Leung:So I canceled the ones that didn't work and then obviously I saw the market out there for seniors. I have a friend that's an executive directed senior home, she got me got my foot in the door and it just went off from there, right? So it became one senior home to thirty, forty senior homes and word-of-mouth, right? And when I started visiting seniors, I found out there was a lack of participation, they feel excluded, they feel isolated because a, they don't want to use the hearing aids, it's uncomfortable, it's expensive, they lose it, they have to replace it, they just don't like the whole obstructing the ear canal. So my product is sits on the outside, it sits in their cheekbone.
Michael Leung:So now using bone conduction, you can be aware of your surroundings at the same time using sound vibrations. So it's the healthiest way of hearing. On top of that you don't have to worry about earwax builds up, you don't have to worry about anything direct pressure to your ears, you don't have to worry about losing this thing. And if you lose it, you lose $300 as opposed to $8,000 So people are seeing the positive benefits of this and it took a lot of testing and I think I got the trust of the seniors and now I'm trying children with autism, I'm trying factory workers, blind athletes, you know, dementia, it's actually working for many different groups now. Soon I'm going be in the dementia care clinic, they're going put me in those in there and just work with dementia patients because they can't have anything in their ears.
Michael Leung:So they go they go crazy with anything in their ears, so now this sits outside, they actually don't even feel like it's so comfortable because people with dementia, they can only focus on one thing or two things. Right? So when you got something in their ear, they're already going crazy. They can't focus. Right?
Michael Leung:So so this is something that could be transcending the hearing industry. So people are pumping me through.
David J Bland:Wow. That's such an impactful story. I think, you know, coming out of personal challenges, even myself, I don't think a lot of listeners even know this, but two years ago, I suddenly lost hearing in my left ear. And it's been a lot of trial and error for me as well, you know, obviously stages of grief, you know, doing like having hearing all your life and losing it versus someone that maybe was born with a condition. Right?
David J Bland:And my brain is trying to figure out why isn't sound coming out of the side of your head anymore. You know, it's surprising to me the lack of products available on the market. And you talk about the traditional hearing aid experience. It's it's not a good experience. And it's also extremely expensive.
David J Bland:I find myself even just like, kinda just either using Trad GPT or Google or and just trying to find hey. Is there or Reddit, you know? Is there some kind of niche thing out there that's for me? And it's surprisingly difficult to find even though a lot of people suffer from similar ailments and things. I'm wondering from your side, what are some of those early tests you did?
David J Bland:You know? Because you mentioned, you know, you were kind of bumping into people and everything. And obviously, you're trying to cope with this in some way and position yourself in a way where you can get through your day to day. But what are some of the things that you tried? You mentioned this kind of hinted at this earlier in your statement, but can you share a little bit with us about things that you tried and and what worked and what didn't early on?
Michael Leung:For the hearing or for my sight?
David J Bland:Let's start with your sight and then move into the hearing.
Michael Leung:So this product actually caters for people that have blindness as well. It just happens it helps people to hearing and blindness. Right? We're working with people that are who are blind because when your sight is diminished, especially the ones that are severe or completely blind, they find this useful because now your hearing is enhanced. Right?
Michael Leung:So now you depend on your secondary hearing, and that becomes Spider Man. So now you welcome those background sounds. You welcome the footsteps, the doors opening and closing because now you can navigate better. You can tell who's around you. Right?
Michael Leung:So this product actually helps people that are blind. And because my first product, it's a one size fit all, one setting, so there will be feedback from the first model, so that's more catered to people that are blind, right? So my second model that's coming out in September, we actually were able to fine tune it because I got suggestions from people over time, and they're like, okay, do you have adjustable headbands with different sized heads, right? That was something we tested and we can't do because even shots of a java, they all have a similar look like this. Right?
Michael Leung:It looks like this where it hooks onto your ears. Right? Mouths down with secure fit. They don't have any size difference because when you change the band into a stretchable band or like something elasticy, it changes the mechanism of it because now you're pulling onto wires and, you know, stretching it. Right?
Michael Leung:So there's a reason why it looks like this. Right? And if you want different sizes, then you gotta make special kids sizes or extra large sizes. Right? And that costs money.
Michael Leung:Right? So of course, that's why I've I've held back on it, but we decided to amp up in advance all the other suggestions or concerns that could make it even better. So because the other one's a one size fit all one setting, the amplification on the new one has dual volume settings, so now you can change the volume on both sides. The buttons are more senior friendly because the first model there's, you know, some holding and clicking of buttons, this one is just one sliding button and then the rest is like one click. It's more senior friendly, more easy to use, right?
Michael Leung:There's a sound noise reduction chip that's planted in, so now it's built in, the moment you wear it, the background sounds actually minimized by a lot. So people that have hearing loss, they don't hear all the background mumbo jumbo anymore, which drives them crazy. They're like, we hear that with hearing aids, we hear that with your old product, do you have anything new? And this product worked flying colors. Right?
Michael Leung:So they're like, could you please have this manufactured soon? So now I'm pushing it for September. People are preordering it, and I'm going back to all my senior homes and doing this testing and try to get them on preorder. So the last thing we put in was there's three modes for three different environments. So you can have outdoor, indoor, and vocal.
Michael Leung:So you can have social interactions in a small setting or you can be outside. So it actually can it can actually adjust the environment you're into. Right? So next level stuff. Right?
Michael Leung:So, yeah, just a lot of testing and retesting and evolution. Right? Just keep revamping things. Right?
David J Bland:Yeah. So it sounds like a lot about getting feedback from people. I imagine some people send emails, maybe some are in conversations and such.
Michael Leung:In person. Yeah. In person. Yep.
David J Bland:How are you sorting through that feedback? Or how do you begin to even are you looking for patterns? Or just explain that process a bit. Because I imagine you get some conflicting feedback, and sometimes it's hard to really determine, okay. They're giving us feedback, but what do I do?
David J Bland:Is there a problem behind it I'm trying to solve and maybe in a different way?
Michael Leung:So I have really severe ADHD. So when I really focus on something I really like, I go you know, I think about night and day, I lose sleep over it. So then I start thinking what the next best thing could be. Right? So when people tell me this, it's always in my head that I have to, like, fix this.
Michael Leung:I have to change it up. So when I talk to my team, we're just I'm constantly pitching things to them, like, you gotta fix this, you gotta fix this. I want the perfect product, I want and they're just obviously like, hey, like, know, you gotta give us kind of some slack here, but I have to make it affordable. At the same time, I have to also make sure I don't overdo it too. Right?
Michael Leung:Because when it gets too complicated, things will be more expensive, and then, you know, it could cause issues for this technology. Right? So I do get a lot of people saying, you know, head sizes, because there are a lot of head sizes, but because you want to cater to the general population of the world, so you try to have like a general average size head, so you know you can't impress everybody, but down the road I will have different sizes, but at the moment most heads do fit so it is very important it fits because that's where it has to sit on the cheekbone securely, right? So when your head's bigger or smaller, now it's not holding as properly, it might be floating on your head, you gotta hold it with your hand, which wouldn't work very well, right? So the amplification, I have to make sure there's controls, there's volume settings because when there's no volume, when you put it on, it's one size fit all, one setting, it can be there could be issues, right, because some people have different frequencies and they need that different change in frequencies.
Michael Leung:And because there's a dual volume, they can change it on both sides. So maybe your ear is a little more, you know, more worse on one side, you can change it a little higher. Right? So a lot of different things we thought through, especially the seniors with the buttons, they found it hard to hold buttons and click buttons. Because when you have to hold a button for five seconds with your, like, strength, a lot of them are just they don't have that strength to do it.
Michael Leung:So that became a problem where they had to get assistance. And, of course, that can be frustrating. Right? Because you want them to use it on their own too. Right?
Michael Leung:So we tried everything, different scenarios, and now it's senior friendly. Everything that they asked for, it's pretty much there. And that's why people are loving it. Right? So
David J Bland:Yeah. It sounds like a lot of feedback. And you're always thinking about this, you know, how to take what they're giving you as far as feedback and incorporate it into your design. I think kind of a personal story from my side. Right?
David J Bland:Well, first, I was able to hear things panning back and forth, and now I can't. So when I try to do things like video games, right, because I love playing video games, I can't hear the people coming from the left side. And it gets very frustrating. And so I was like, well, I could pump all the sound into one side, but then I don't know if it's coming from left or right. And I did find, like, a Kickstarter where people are separating the speakers on one side, you know, and then they're panning up and down instead of left or right, which helps a little bit.
David J Bland:But I'm still trying to retrain my brain of all those years of you hear something on your left side, you turn left, you know? And now it's kinda like, well, if you hear something on your right side at the top, then you turn left. And that's easier said than done as far as, like, retraining. So for the hearing side of things, like, what kind of feedback are you getting? Are you observing people using it?
David J Bland:And, like, explain a little bit about that process a bit and how you're staying connected to folks.
Michael Leung:So basically, I do a lot of guest presentations at Senior Home. So I go Senior Home, Senior Home, I spend about an hour. Presentation's about twenty, thirty minutes just to talk about my life to how I discover this to the technology benefits, and you know special collaborations, and then I get into the volunteers testing them one by one. I have another product where so I have a TV, I have a TV, I notice seniors are actually blasting their TV very loud, so then I have another product where it's a Bluetooth transceiver where you can connect everything and now they can watch TV mute, so now they don't have to blast the TV and it goes directly to the headphone, right? So they can answer the phone, watch TV all simultaneously, and if they want to talk through the amplifier, they'll turn the amplifier on, they'll go walk around talk and come back, right?
Michael Leung:So I do the presentation by testing their hearing through the TV first, so I'm like, here's the TV out loud so they can hear it aloud, then I mute it, and they can hear everything through this headphone. Right? And then after, I'll test them through the amplification. I think watch TV with the amplifier just to see how the sound is comparable. So one is the cinematic sound through the transceiver because it's directly from the TV, and the other is more of an amplified sound, so they can tell the difference.
Michael Leung:Right? So through that, that's when I do the testing, and they'll take out their hearing aids, they'll they'll see how well they hear, and if they can't hear too well, because I have some seniors that are so severe their hearing aids are even worn out, right, so they actually combine the product because one, you can put over top. The hearing aids are in your ear so that you combine the two, so you got a double stacker. And some found it very beneficial to hear you're able to hear again, so and there's no right or wrong way, so that's why this is very trendy and it doesn't have that stereotype behind it, right? So people that are young that don't want to wear hearing aids because they feel like it's gonna be stereotyped.
Michael Leung:Now you can wear this headphone that has this built in amplification that is like James Bond of hearing aids. Right? So
David J Bland:Yeah. It's the fashion and the style that do play a role. I'm wondering, because you're in hardware, how do you even begin to test different designs and such? And you mentioned some manufacturing experience. Maybe that that's playing a role here too.
David J Bland:But for folks that are listening that are like, oh, I have a physical product, and I'm really having a hard time figuring out how to test different parts of our different designs. You know, what kind of things worked for you?
Michael Leung:With mine, because you see there's like ear hook. Right? So you have it has to sit on the ear. And I just noticed there's like because there are so many people with different ear shapes and stuff too. So if you have a ear that doesn't have a deep enough gap in the front to hold to mount it down, it'll slide.
Michael Leung:Right? So so some seniors will wear it, and if their head's too big, it'll just kind of like the transducer, the pad will sit inside their ear. It's supposed to sit in front, so push it back into the ear, which is not working at all. Right? So that would just blast the sounds into the eardrum, which is not cool, right?
Michael Leung:So in that case it's like the design of it is pretty much the way it looks because so many other bone conduction headphones out there, they all look the same, but mine's different because mine has amplification built in. No one else has it. So they can only listen to music, talk on the phone, that's all they can do. Mine has that plus you got this hearing device you can use to socially engage now. Right?
Michael Leung:So the design is just, yeah, like all the designs I had, all the samples I came with all look the same, it's just the comfortability. When people start wearing mine, this is the most comfortable one they wore, to the point where they will wear my demos off into their room and I'm missing I'm missing some like four or five of them, like, hey, where'd it go? And then they're in their room still wearing them. They didn't know it was on their head. And like, there's just a lot of a lot of things like I noticed just testing over time is even like the the demographics of seniors of like the women were the most engaged with this kind of prodding.
Michael Leung:It's kinda weird because you think when men would come out because this technology. Right? But they were so worried about the stereotype that they hid in their rooms and their wives would be the ones listening to this show. Right? So I would see, I have forty fifty people, it's like 45 women, three four men,
David J Bland:and I
Michael Leung:was like why is this? It constantly kept happening. And then after it's done she was can you come to room blah blah blah, my husband's waiting for you. I'm like okay, and another wife's like hey can you come up to the room, my husband's waiting for you, so I had to secretly go see the husbands because they don't want to wear their hearing aids, they actually own hearing aids and some of them refuse to wear them which is crazy, right? So now you can wear this comfortably and you don't have to wear your hearing aids, you don't have to worry about losing them, put them aside on a wedding or important day, you can wear this in the premises, right?
Michael Leung:So now it's more trendier and I feel like in the beginning it was almost like pulling teeth because when I first came they're like no, it's okay, they rejected it because they thought it was a young person's thing. As more and more people start wearing it, Bob started wearing it, know, Heidi started wearing it, and then they're like, I wonder what Bob's wearing now. And then they all it's like the trend, they all kind of start storming in. It's just I noticed that afterwards now there's actually more men coming out now. It's like physically, it's for everybody.
Michael Leung:Right? And when they get really into it, they're super into technology. So it's just more of an embarrassment of wearing hearing aids. That's why they they don't show up. Right?
Michael Leung:But, yeah, that's stuff you learn too. It's like, never thought that would be that big of a drastic difference in percentage that comes out. Right?
David J Bland:Yeah. I couldn't have predicted that either. I think I mean, that's the brilliance of going out and trying it and then having an open mind and not explaining it away. You know? It sounds like you were very attuned to, hey.
David J Bland:Something's going on here. And getting to the underlying cause, you know, of the embarrassment, I mean, I find so many founders create these perfect products, you know, in their head, and then they get really frustrated when people don't adopt them and buy them. And they don't spend enough time with those underlying issues of what would prevent adoption. So it's very, very interesting. So it sounds as if you have sort of like different demographics for your product.
David J Bland:You have sort of the older demographic, but then you also are marketing to other younger folks as well. So does that change your messaging at all? Or, like, how does that impact sort of your acquisition? Or have you thought about that of how you market to different segments?
Michael Leung:That's a good question actually. Haven't had anyone ask me that. But yeah, so at first I was kinda like catering to everybody. But then when you work with seniors, I was told focus on them only for now, and then everything else kind of branched off because when you start telling them hey I got labor workers, I got you know this and that and children, they start kind of thinking things are too too all over the place and they get kind of confused And if you want to help them you just say you know this is for seniors, this is for seniors because it just sounds like that you're just trying to put your head in too many cookie jars, right? So seniors kind of like they get kind of a they hold back a bit on that, right?
Michael Leung:So I learn to when I do senior presentations I just talk about seniors, I try not to bring up anyone else. I do say it for all ages but then I just leave it at that, right? Because I'm working with them directly, right? So I just tell them all my experience working with seniors and they trust me because I resonate with them. Because I have this eye disability, it puts me into like comfortable position with them because they don't feel like I'm a sales guy, that I'm trying to sell them stuff.
Michael Leung:And I never push my products on them. If they want to think it over, please think it over. I don't want you to jump in and buy something you don't want to buy, and by all means please bring your children in in these events because and when the children comes, they gravitate towards this because they're like, please, is there anything else out there? And can you help my parents? And they're the financial supplier, so they always have to say, have to ask my children first.
Michael Leung:Right? So for me, it's like my product is so useful, I'm not those like easy money guys, oh, I need to sell today. Right? I know people are gonna come back, I know this is gonna sell, so I'm not even worried. Right?
Michael Leung:And the fact that anyone can have a product out there, but if you don't go and actually put your work through and test people one by one in the hundreds and thousands, no one's gonna buy your thing because it's like that's why I'm not worried about someone copying me or someone actually changing it up because it's been known that I'm out there already doing this. I'm actually going door by door. I actually drive door to door. People call me. I fit them in.
Michael Leung:I drive to their doorstep, go walk in CEO fitting them, you know. You gotta put the hard work into it or else it's just a product that's not gonna sell. You got the best thing ever. It's never gonna go anywhere.
David J Bland:I agree. I agree. And people can copy the what, but they don't understand the why and the especially, they don't usually understand the customers as well as you because you're doing in the you're doing all the hard work to understand your customers. So it sounds as if you're being very thoughtful about it and the way you're positioning it. So you mentioned, you know, you have different form factors.
David J Bland:It sounds like you've tested other bone conducting units and everything and saw this sort of gap. I think that's very interesting as well because we always talk about I don't know. I get all these questions about, oh, well, we're in Red Ocean and Blue Ocean and Red Ocean's, you know, a race to the bottom and it was hard to stand out and everything. And we can never find an unmet need and and because there's so many products. And I find that to be less and less true.
David J Bland:You know, it seems as if personalization is really important to people. And no matter how many products exist in a category, there's usually you can even go back and look at the reviews and see, okay, they don't do certain things well. You know? For sure. And so it feels as if you the amplification, you know, that's how you came to that as well.
David J Bland:And so I'm wondering, sort of like moving forward, you have this coming out in September, which this episode should should air in September as well, so that's good timing.
Michael Leung:The way it says.
David J Bland:Do you have, like, big assumptions you're testing or things that you're worried about that keep you up at night that sort of moving forward? Because because you can definitely base off of what you've learned. But moving forward, like, are the things we often phrase these as desirable, viable, feasible. Like, desirable being the customer, viable being willingness to pay in costs, and feasible being your just, ability to execute. So are there any things around, like, the customer or even, like I don't know how heavily regulated this industry is in in Canada, willingness to pay.
David J Bland:Like, where are you drawn to out of those? Is there something that's, like, keeping you up at night at the moment that you want to test?
Michael Leung:That's a great question too because that's something no one really asked which I love to answer too. There are some concerns for me because new technology is always improving, it's always evolving, but that's why I always keep up to date with what I'm doing and I'm always talking to my team and like that I would never do anything to go backwards. Like with this product, it's gonna be better and better, like even with the charging. The last one took two hours, this is gonna take one hour. You know, the the last one was eight hours, I want this the last ten hours for usage.
Michael Leung:So it's gonna keep building, mean the next will be twelve hours, know, so people want more usage out of it and less charging time, and of course the first one was more complicated, now this one's more senior friendly. And like maybe the next one will be like voice control, just talk and it just turns on, right? So less touch, less operating with your hands, you know? I feel like because now there's AI, there's so many like different things, but people ask me, you wanna do AI? I was like, I don't think I wanna complicate things anymore with my product.
Michael Leung:It's it's good the way it is, and it can change in the design. It could be even more comfortable, more lightweight. With Shox, it's like so Shox, if you look between me and Shox, it looks like half the size of this actually because they don't have as much mechanism because mine has the amplification in it. Right? So there's always extra chips in it that looks a little more bold looking.
Michael Leung:Theirs, it looks more thin and, like, lightweight because it only does, you know, what they do. Right? But their technology is high up there, so that's why there a lot of people wear them. Right? But I can't say I wanna copy their design or, like, make it as small as them because, you know, maybe one day you can make the chips even smaller, I guess.
Michael Leung:Right? With the market, I'm never really worried about that this is gonna go out of style or this is gonna, like, fade away because it's a necessity. And I see the demand for it and how it lights up people's eyes. It's almost like life changing and like they're just like, I just wanna listen to my grandchild talk. Like, then they put it on how they can hear.
Michael Leung:They're like, at the dinner table, no one's everyone leaves us out of the conversation because they don't think we can hear. And I just go along and just nod my head, pretend I'm hearing it, and I don't understand. So then they're just like, please, and then, you know, helping people with dementia, like, because their spouse is, like, desperately, like, they don't wear their hearing aids, they can't hear anything, I'm shouting at them with my throat and I'm losing my voice, is there anything? And I just give them my product for three weeks, four weeks for free just to like try it. And like to me that it comes a long way when you help people instead of like, hey, you know, we'll charge you this for this for this, it's like here it's for free because I know they're gonna come back and refer me people and they're gonna buy the new device from me.
Michael Leung:So the more you help people, the more you go and show your face and do these like special things for people, I never worry that I'm gonna go fade away into you know the sunset or anything, I always feel like I'm gonna have the upper hand. So I'm not like worried about a lot of factors, I'm just more I guess maybe if someone else comes up with something better, you know, or something even less expensive or like, you know, I mean, it could happen. Right? But like I said, I'm not that worried either because they have to put their work in. So if they don't put their work in, they just have this project to throw out there and no one's gonna buy it either.
Michael Leung:So, you know, that's why I have this first step ahead of everybody, which is that's why I'm going on Dragon's Den. I have a legacy maker's coming on this summer. Right? So yeah.
David J Bland:That's awesome. Dragon's Den. That's big time. I'm wondering and I kinda glanced over this earlier, but when we talked about the street themes of desirable, viable, feasible, infeasibility, is this regulated? Because it's not is it a hearing aid or classified not as a hearing aid?
David J Bland:Or help me understand that a bit because I'm sure there's people dabbling in this industry and they're like, oh, I can never do this. Because like here in The States, we have FDA approvals and all this other stuff. So are you navigating all that, or is that not a worry?
Michael Leung:It's not too I'm not too worried. Like, the product is patented on my supplier side, and I trademark this all over, you know, North America as a it's more of a recreational product, but it actually has health benefits for it. Right? So I've been asked if I should make it a health, a medical approved product, but if I do, now I've to put it through all these testing, I have to pay for the testing, now this product's gonna be $2,300, it'll be a thousand dollars now, right? So people respect that it costs much less than hearing aids, where I'm actually thinking of you know promoting a Walmart, Best Buy where people can just pluck it off the shelf and wear it without going to get their ear tested.
Michael Leung:So it's just easy and convenient and I don't have to make it medical, and people are still like senior homes. I got innovation places, I got audiologists all willing to work with me. No one's kicking me out saying you know, you don't belong here, but hearing aid companies when I do presentations with them, they separate me with them because they give me little dirty stink eye sometimes because they're like, why are there so many people lining up for him? And then they'll they come and try to like, you know, knock on me and try to break me down a bit. They're like, is this?
Michael Leung:Does this thing even work? And I was like, oh, it works, you know? And they're just like kind of like a little worried. Right. But
David J Bland:Yeah. It reminds me a little bit of, like, audio industry. I went to a talk in Silicon Valley, one of the cofounders of Tesla, and he was talking about the early days where they would go to car shows and all the ICE internal combustion engine folks would come over and just, like, stare at them like, what are you trying to do? That's never gonna work. You know?
David J Bland:But then you fast forward to today and all these EVs and and everything are popularized. But I think that comes along with the early adopter sort of, like, when you're pushing things a bit, you are gonna get the stink eye on some of this. But it sounds as if the way you've classified it, it's interesting because if you think of like, look what Apple's doing, right, with their AirPods and things, you know, they're kind of blurring the line. I can say just from my experience working with medical companies and biotech companies, they're terrified of the consumerism of some of this stuff, you know, because people will go to Apple and say, well, why would I go get a hearing aid? Or I can just get these things with hearing assistance, you know, on them.
David J Bland:So I do think the line's getting blurred. I don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing. I do think, you know, as long as you're solving a problem for people, obviously, like, it's really important. But I feel like it seems like you're navigating that, you know, so far. So you have sort of these products that are born out of personal things you've experienced, and now you're realizing that there are these other segments that also share similar problems that you can solve.
David J Bland:Where do you see this going in the future beyond, like, even September and beyond? You know, where do you see potential of how you can solve problems for people? Like, is there anything that really gets you excited or maybe a segment you haven't, you know, even contemplated yet?
Michael Leung:I'm excited for this global recognition, this global branding because right now it's just in Calgary and I'm kinda just, you know, hitting up the neighboring cities. But I have Toronto, Vancouver where I'm eventually gonna start merging other provinces and then slowly and then of course, my TV show Legacy Makers that's actually gonna be streamed on all major platforms. So when that comes out, it's gonna be, you know, there's celebrities. There's some top name celebrities on it. They're featured on it, and then you got two twenty five entrepreneurs like me that they actually focus and talk about their life and their products and how it impacts the, you know, socially impactful.
Michael Leung:So this TV show, I feel like that would really bring me to the next level and people would actually find out about this globally. Through the podcasting, I'm doing many of these podcasts, like some in Australia, some in India, so it's just like and the moment they hear about it they're like wow, this thing is amazing, when can we get what? Like my dad needs what, my son needs one, it's just that excites me because it's almost like and the most excitement I get is when I actually test people and I see some of them are tearing, know, and it just makes me it makes my heart warm because it's like such a simple product and I never thought it would get to that extent. And now I felt it, I see it, I know now I know it could be like it could hit the low income families. This is what we're trying to get grants for.
Michael Leung:So low income families can't afford hearing aids, they cannot qualify. They have nothing to work with. So now you have this and you get for free for them through the government grants, now they're gonna be the quality of life's increased, they can hear, they can socialize, and imagine all these low income people able to hear now, you know, what great of a world this would be, you know. So, you know, that excites me. Yeah.
David J Bland:Thank you. I love that you shared your story with us. I feel like there's so many possibilities with what you have, and it feels like as long as you're staying really connected to your customers and understanding their problems, you know, you're making this product better and better. If folks wanna reach out to you and they've heard you on this episode, whether it's investors or other people maybe they're experiencing some of the challenges that your product solves, how would they reach out to you? What's the best way?
Michael Leung:Yeah. My website is www.theinnerflo.com. So t h e I n n e r f l o dot com, so without the w, f l o. And that has content, technology, benefits, online shopping, and online shopping is only for Canada, US right now, but I'm gonna start opening up other countries later because of the demand. And then you can all my email's on there, they can reach support, that's also me, I'm doing everything for now.
Michael Leung:And then of course, we're gonna revamp the website to, you know, put blogs on there, we're gonna put partnerships, other logos, and brands, and TV shows. Anything's gonna be on my website later. It's just and of course, my social media is the flow group. So that's Instagram, the flo group, so t h e f l o group. So, yeah, that's where they can find me.
David J Bland:Awesome. We'll put those links on the page as well. But if you're listening and you wanna reach out to Michael, please do so. I wanna thank you so much for hanging out. I mean, again, this is a topic kinda near and dear to my heart too.
David J Bland:And I loved how you talked about testing your way through different iterations of this product and really trying to make it better for people. I just really appreciate you being open and honest and sharing your journey with us today.
Michael Leung:Thank you. I had a great time. It was one of my favorites. Got really deep into this one.
David J Bland:Thanks. Thanks for joining.
Michael Leung:Great questions. Thank you.
David J Bland:Thank you for listening to another episode of How I Tested That, where we share stories about experimentation, tips, tricks. If you learned something new, please recommend us to a friend or colleague. And remember, keep testing your ideas.