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Getting a law degree (juris doctorate) is one of the more deranged things a person can do. So learn about all the deranged things in law and true crime from one.
Alright. Welcome to Juris Deranged. This is a new podcast, featuring your girl, Raven, and, I'm joined today by a couple of very special guests, mister and missus always right. And, I will let them give their own introductions. And, we're gonna talk today about some of the, common misconceptions about, the law, and, well, I'll go ahead and and turn it over to mister and missus always right.
Speaker 2:Hey. Thanks, Raven. We appreciate you having this on. I'm I'm typically a criminal myself. My wife is more than straight arrow, straight laced person, but I'm me.
Speaker 2:This is my wife.
Speaker 3:I'm missus always right, and he's not typically a criminal. He's always
Speaker 2:Thank you, baby. Thank you. Oh, yeah. And if if it's okay with you, Raven, you can find our podcast wherever you get your episodes at me and missus always right. And we hope you listen.
Speaker 2:We're we're, like, great people.
Speaker 3:I'm very excited about this.
Speaker 2:Yes. I am too. I am too. I definitely need a lawyer on my side. So
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That is no lie.
Speaker 1:Well, if you're always a criminal, then you're in good company because I feel like we'll make a great team with a criminal defense lawyer and a and a criminal. So so I'm excited about this, and thank you for coming on and for joining me. And this is actually the inaugural episode. So yeah.
Speaker 2:That's that's great. I just need to know, do you work for food stamps? Because I am poor.
Speaker 1:At this point, I might as well. I'm underwater on a lot of things. So There
Speaker 3:you go.
Speaker 2:If you wanna jump in and, give your disclaimer real quick.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. Absolutely. So, I'm, I'm a criminal defense lawyer, and I I need to tell you all, the audience, that we're going to be talking about some legal legal topics today that, are not intended to be legal advice. Nothing that I say, in the midst of this podcast is intended to be legal advice to you or anyone that you know. It is purely for entertainment and educational purposes.
Speaker 2:Nice. That's great. I have never been able to say anything like that in my life. My advice the only advice I ever give is do as I say, not as I do, and it's usually directed to her. So
Speaker 3:Yeah. That is true. That is true.
Speaker 1:I've given that as advice as well. So That's it.
Speaker 2:So starting out, if it's okay, do you you don't mind if I lead off with the first question, do you?
Speaker 1:Not at all.
Speaker 2:So I recently came across a couple of videos and a couple of cases in Salinas versus Texas. I believe it's, Burgess versus Tompkins and Chavez versus Martinez where your silence can actually be used against you. Now how does that compare to to your 5th amendment and you not answering questions?
Speaker 1:Sure. Yeah. So there's, there's a so you do you have a 5th Amendment right not to be compelled to speak. But if you choose not to speak, typically, it's not supposed to be held against you. And I think for a lot of criminal defense lawyers, especially, these cases were kind of offensive as far as 5th Amendment, case law goes.
Speaker 1:But the gist of it is is that you can the your silence can be used against you, if there's a presumption, one way or another. So if you're like, for exam I think the the biggest example that a lot of people can get is if you choose not to do field sobriety test, for example, that in in certain in certain states, not in every state, but in certain states, a lot of states, if you choose not to do field sobriety tests, that would be used against you as a presumption that you are intoxicated. So that's that's a, I guess, kind of what I would see as a form of silence that can be used against you.
Speaker 2:And and in your opinion, you you can't give advice. I understand that. But in your opinion, would you still would you still recommend we do not take the field sobriety, we do not blow, we do not walk the line, and I got bad ankles anyway. I'm kinda tubby. You know?
Speaker 2:I can't keep my balance. So so that's, you know
Speaker 1:Yeah. No. Absolutely. And my personal best
Speaker 2:interest not to take the sobriety test.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And so without giving legal advice, I think that what I will say is that field sobriety tests are subjective. And a lot of the times that there's an an angle there that law enforcement might have that is aimed towards whether they know it or not, towards finding you to be intoxicated. And so you may be nervous. You may, you know, have had a bunch of coffee.
Speaker 1:You may be clumsy like I am. And, and they're going to find that you've failed failed your field sobriety tests when they're very simple. I mean, there's there's certain clues that they're looking at that if you think about it, you know, anybody, it doesn't have to be whether you're intoxicated or not, could could fail and then you end up being presumed to be intoxicated and forced to take a test, and that can be used against you. So anything that you do with law enforcement can be can and will be used against you. They're not your friends.
Speaker 1:They're not there to get you out of trouble. I think a lot of kids actually have this idea that, you know, if they comply with police officers that that is going to benefit them in the long run. And that, you know, is typically not the case. I'm not saying go out and, you know, be contrarians to law enforcement. But, but typically speaking, you know, you do not have to talk to them, and you should not talk to them.
Speaker 2:Okay. Babe, you're up next. What you got?
Speaker 3:Okay. So if you're so let's say something happens and you're asked to go down to the police station, to speak with them. They want to question you. Do you have to go down there to speak to them? And is there any kind of time limit that you're obligated, I guess you could say, to talk with them before you just say, go, I'm done, and get up and leave?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So very quick answer. No. You do not need to go down to to the the station if they ask you to, and you should not. You should not talk to them.
Speaker 1:You know, I I can't say, you know, for some people, if they're, you know, trying to help solve a crime, something like that, they see that as beneficial to talking to law enforcement. The problem is that law enforcement has their own like I said, with the field sobriety test, they have their own angle and they may know things that you don't know that they know, and they may not know things that you think that they do know. And what I mean by that is law enforcement can lie to you. And so they can tell you that they have evidence, against you that isn't there. And so that can trip you up, and that's how you get a lot of false confessions in a lot of cases is that, people are go in for 7, 10, 12 hours, and they're continuing to talk, and they don't have to.
Speaker 1:And I think that a lot of people think that they do have to. You don't get your Miranda rights read to you unless you are arrested. And so I think what people think is that if they're not being read their Miranda rights, that means that they're not under suspicion, and that's not the case. That's not true.
Speaker 2:Touching on that with her. How do you feel about that? As a lawyer, do you feel like from the moment they start asking questions that they should be read their Miranda rights? Because this goes back to 66, right, when the Miranda rights came out. Yuri upset a lot of cops in that era because they felt that we'd never get a confession again.
Speaker 1:Oh, completely. Yeah. And I I do I think that Miranda should be expanded. But I think more than that and and, you know, we touched on this right before we talked in this podcast. I think that this should be taught in schools.
Speaker 1:I think that, you know, kids should be taught that, they have a right not to talk to law enforcement and or anyone with the state. And, so, you know, should they should you get a Miranda right as soon as you encounter law enforcement? I tend to think so, but I think it goes beyond that. I think it goes to, you know, public education and what we're teaching our kids.
Speaker 2:Oh, because this could go back to even, like, traffic stops. You know? Like, not that I have or haven't been guilty of, you know, excessive speed or stuff like that, but it it seems like every time I get pulled over, it's like, do you know why I stopped you? No. Why don't you tell me?
Speaker 2:Right? I am it it took me a while to realize that this is not friendly banter. And as a as a as a person who's been on the other side of law enforcement, I walk a fine line between wanting these guys to go home every day. I want them to go see their family. I I don't want nothing bad to happen to them.
Speaker 2:And Of course. I don't know if you heard or not, but we just had a law enforcement officer pass, a week ago here in Fort Worth that died in a working traffic. And Oh. On the other hand, I don't wanna cooperate with the point that they think we're best friends and we're gonna have a beer and, you know, I I, you know, I might find him slightly attractive. I don't know.
Speaker 2:I'm not going there. I just like I'm not answering
Speaker 3:questions. Sure. You have to answer questions.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So typically, no. You you don't need to answer the only questions that you need answer and this again, this depends on the state. You know, I am a a lawyer in New Mexico, and I'm getting licensed in Colorado as well. But, in both of those states, the only questions that you need to answer are who you are.
Speaker 1:You have to identify yourself. And if you're asked for your registration and insurance, you have to get those as well. Those are the only two things.
Speaker 2:But this is only while driving, walking down the street, minding my own No. And it cops me, do I have to present my ID?
Speaker 1:That's a trickier question and it kind of depends on the situation. You do need to identify yourself, to law enforcement, typically speaking, in in most cases. But it but it depends. It completely depends. I mean, if you if law enforcement is, you know, calling out to you across the street for no reason, and saying, hey, I wanna talk to you.
Speaker 1:There's case law that says that you don't have to answer to them.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:But if you're if you're being questioned, if you're if they come into contact with you and they're, you know, suspecting you of something, you do have to identify yourself.
Speaker 3:Okay. So so we'll be on traffic stops just briefly then. So let's say I get stopped on a traffic stop because, you know, I might be You're
Speaker 2:a drug smuggler. Don't you?
Speaker 3:I might be going over the the speed posted speed limit or whatever, and they want to do a search of my vehicle, and I refuse for them to search my vehicle. Do they have the right to detain me longer until they can get, let's say, a drug dog out there? Is
Speaker 1:So yeah. That depends on the state. It's it's Okay. Okay. In in New Mexico, we do have case law on point about that.
Speaker 1:They do have to have reasonable suspicion, that typically has to be, you know, some kind of scent or they saw something in the car that led them to believe that, you know, they needed to bring this this dog on. And it has to be a reasonable, you know, time period for the drug dog to come on and and do a scent a sniff. But, typically, the that's, you know, within their abilities to do. So which I don't agree with. But but that's typically speaking, at least in New Mexico.
Speaker 1:And it is very like I said, that one is state specific. There is federal case law on it as well, but it really depends on what circuit you're in, what state you're in. But, yeah. So so that's that's one that you would you would wanna check into. Texas for you.
Speaker 1:Right. And I'm I'm gonna Right. I'm gonna guess that I'm gonna be, you know, willing to be wrong on this, but I think I'm right. I'm gonna guess that Texas, allows for drug sniff their drug dogs to come in and and do a sniff without, you know, getting any kind of warrant.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Is there ever a situation where I should talk to law enforcement without a lawyer? Any situation at all.
Speaker 1:No. No. I know. I knew
Speaker 2:that was gonna be an easy one, but we were we were going back to Texas in the in the traffic stops. I had heard in this, like I said, this was layman's, that if a officer pulled me over for speeding by the time he's got a he's got a set amount of time, you know, to write that ticket and that extending the traffic stop beyond that speeding. Now if he can get a dog out in a reasonable 10, 15 minutes, if that's acceptable, but he can't hold me there for an hour waiting on the dog while riding me a speeding ticket.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's correct. Yeah. And I believe that's
Speaker 2:Texas. Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I yeah. I don't know Texas law completely, but we actually we have, an interesting case in in New Mexico about that, about expanding the investigation. So we had a a lawyer, actually, a very well known lawyer in New Mexico, who
Speaker 2:I see what you did there.
Speaker 1:But he he's kinda he's kinda similar in a lot of ways. His name is Ron Bell, and, and he was stopped for a DWI. And the officer trying to be cheeky asked him whether he had any guns or explosive or fireworks or something to that effect in in the vehicle. And what the court of appeal said was that the law enforcement did not have the, the ability to expand the investigation beyond the simple DWI that they were there for. So asking the questions of, do you have something besides, you know, something related to, intoxication in your car, would be expanding the investigation beyond what they're able to do.
Speaker 1:They didn't have the reasonable suspicion in order to ask that question. So so similar to what your question is, getting back to that, you there the, time for detention has to be reasonable, and there has to be reasonable suspicion and and a reason for them to be detaining you. They can't just detain you for nothing. So if they if they have something there that's not quite probable cause, and they think that they can get a search warrant for it, they can typically detain you for the period that they're applying for the search warrant. But if they're just there and they just wanna, you know, try and go down some kind of fishing expedition to get something on you, they can't do that.
Speaker 3:Okay. Alright. Well, I
Speaker 2:didn't want her I didn't want her to have Snatch it. Typically during our podcast, when I open a beer, you hear the pop, and I'm like, trademark.
Speaker 1:I'm okay with that. I'm yeah.
Speaker 2:I hid it under the table while you were talking. Your voice is beautiful. I swear to god. Oh. If I stub a toe on somebody's property, I'm calling you.
Speaker 2:We're gonna go see the fuck out of them. Okay?
Speaker 1:Hell, yeah.
Speaker 3:I just want you on
Speaker 2:the side. Okay?
Speaker 1:I I got your back. I promise. Gotcha. Gotcha. But you can definitely pop a pop a kid on my podcast.
Speaker 1:That's that's completely
Speaker 2:I get it.
Speaker 3:Yep. Sorry.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, if there's another one, that's okay too.
Speaker 2:We're talking DWIs. We're we're podcasting while intoxicated.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That's right. That's okay.
Speaker 1:It's a law against it. Talking in our petty guys.
Speaker 2:And this is typically this is typically our, you know, our podcast. I you know, you having us on is, like, totally, like, opposite of what you do. I mean, you're, like, you're, like, the consummate professional, and we're just we're so white trash. Right.
Speaker 3:It's not
Speaker 2:even a fun
Speaker 1:Oh, you you guys are giving me way too much credit. I mean, the things that I see in my field. So which is why I do what I do.
Speaker 2:I Right. It's Mhmm. Go ahead. No. You you turn.
Speaker 2:Your turn.
Speaker 3:No. So so when you're representing a client, do you normally ask them if they're guilty or not?
Speaker 1:So we don't ask it that way, and I think that the idea of someone being guilty is a state concept. Right? So what I mean by that is that the state has the idea that someone is guilty or not guilty. Right? Like, they they wrote the statute and, you know, they have to meet the elements for, whatever the crime is.
Speaker 1:And so when we think about guilty as people who are, you know, not in the state, just laypeople in general, we think of, you know, morally, are they good or are they bad? Right? But Okay. When we're like, as criminal defense lawyers, when we talk to people, typically, at least this is my lens. I you know, I think different lawyers probably have different ways of thinking about this.
Speaker 1:But we're not thinking guilt or innocence. We're thinking about what are the facts. You know, what what happened? Like, that's that's that's my question. What happened?
Speaker 1:And, you know, you get people who will tell you the truth. You get people who don't tell you the truth. I will tell you that we cannot help you if you don't tell us the truth. It's like your doctor. Right?
Speaker 1:Like, you you can't go into your doctor
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:And lie to them about, you know, the number of drinks you have. We all do it, but, you know, but you you Bullshit. Bullshit. Yes. But they can't help you.
Speaker 1:Know where. I thought that's what
Speaker 2:AA was for.
Speaker 1:True. There is there is that too. But, but no. But we can't help you unless you give us all of the information that you have. And so, you know, where we've gotten in trouble in cases is when we have someone who doesn't tell us everything that happened, and then we find out later down the line.
Speaker 1:And that's, you know, that's when cases go wrong. The we're only as good as the information that we're given. So
Speaker 3:Correct. My I agree. I agree.
Speaker 2:So talking about telling the truth that you're an attorney. Okay? Let's say I committed a crime and I hire Raven because I hear she's a badass. I don't know what I'm doing in Mexico, by the way. But if I was and I committed a crime
Speaker 3:from hiring
Speaker 2:her but let's just say I told you during this that, yes, I committed this crime, and I'm gonna go commit another one. Are you obligated to to tell law enforcement?
Speaker 1:No. You are not. Alright. But but I but I can't represent you. So the way and that's that's actually that's an that's an ethical rule.
Speaker 1:That's under the American Bar Association ethical rules. I actually just took the ethics test again, in getting my license here in Colorado. So I'm refreshed on that. So I can I can talk to you about it from a, you know, refresh standpoint? But, yeah, typically so if you tell me that you're going to continue committing crimes, I I can't do anything to assist you with the commission of those crimes, and I have to stop representing you.
Speaker 1:So, I can advise you and, you know, the the ethics rules tell you, you know, that you're supposed to tell talk to that person about, you know, their, legal responsibilities. And if they continue doing the crime that, you know, that you can't represent them and advise them against continuing to do the crime. But if they continue down that path, then, I I can't tell law enforcement that unless unless it's, going to be a a risk to someone's, bodily, you know, it like, there someone is going to be injured or, or killed.
Speaker 2:Okay. So speak into that, and I don't mean to interrupt you.
Speaker 3:No. Go ahead.
Speaker 2:Gorgeous. Go ahead. But she brought it up. So mob attorneys, how do they get away with that? They know these guys are committing crimes over and over and over again.
Speaker 2:So do mob attorneys just not have ethics?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So they don't.
Speaker 3:They're mob attorneys. I'm sorry. So so just to elaborate more on that, and I I just thought about it because of, you know, what we're talking about. But, can you be then subpoenaed, later on for court if they continue down the path that you've advised them not to go down? And
Speaker 1:That's a that is a good question. And I think the short answer is you can be subpoenaed, but you can, use your attorney client privilege and say that this is confidential communications and and not testify as to them.
Speaker 3:Okay. Okay. Alright. And speaking of attorney client privilege privilege.
Speaker 2:Privilege. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Here you go. Apparently, I've been maybe had some alcohol this morning too.
Speaker 1:This Saturday morning. It it would
Speaker 3:yes. Yes. It is the weekend. Nobody's gonna be
Speaker 2:I'm the only day drinker here. She's she's basically a nun. We'll wait for tomorrow. That's that's our lunchtime.
Speaker 3:That's what I say. I am water.
Speaker 2:Got
Speaker 3:it. So you you represent a a client, and, when does the attorney client privilege end or cease, when the client passes away? Or when you I I guess, when the, case is over. So what I'm I I guess what I'm getting at is can you go back and go, oh, I wanna publish a book now on this crime that, you know, happened years ago and and I was a part of?
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's a really good question, and, the short answer is that the attorney client privilege never ends. It it succeeds after the person even dies, after your client dies. The exception is if that person waives attorney client privilege and allows you to, talk about the case. So you can talk about the case.
Speaker 1:You can talk about the trial. You can talk about, you know, everything that was public, but you can't talk about communications between yourself and the and the client. Boom. That's what's confidential.
Speaker 3:Okay. Mhmm. Gotcha.
Speaker 2:If I'm on death row, which I don't know why I would be, but if I am You are in Texas.
Speaker 1:I You walk around down there when they put you on death row.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I I've avoided it, like, 17 times. Barely though. It's skin on my teeth. But if if I'm on death row, can I end attorney client privilege in my will?
Speaker 1:Oh, that's a good question. You so you have the ability to waive your attorney client privilege at any time. Like, you can tell your your attorney that they can, talk about your communications at any time. You don't need to put it in your will. You can put it, you know, you can tell them I want you to publish my, my story, and I give you permission to use all of my communications.
Speaker 1:It's it lies with the client. It actually doesn't lie with the attorney. So, so I can't be your
Speaker 2:yeah. I don't mean I didn't mean to interrupt. No. All good. But so as soon as they put the needle in my arm, I can waive attorney client privilege right there, and you would be free to tell tell my story.
Speaker 2:You know, would you tell that story though in your words
Speaker 1:or mine? Oh, good question. I think that, you know, you'd have to tell it in your own words. Right? That's all you could do though.
Speaker 1:The person's dead. So, but, but, yeah, I mean, I think there has been quite a few attorneys who have told their clients stories. I mean, I'm sure we've all read different attorneys books about the famous criminals in the past. And so typically I think that, you know, a lot of the well, ethically, the people should the attorneys should be talking to their clients about what they want out there in in their books and giving them the publishing rights and that and that kind of thing. And where they've gotten in trouble is when they don't do that.
Speaker 1:So one of the case I was super obsessed with Timothy McVay's story, just recently.
Speaker 2:For both of us. Yep.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And so what I what I learned, what I didn't know was that his attorney actually, gave all of the entire file over to a research center and so you can just go in and look at everything that was ever said, between Timothy McVeigh and his attorney. And Yeah. I I think he did that, because it was such an interesting case study. But from a lawyer's perspective, it's a little bit, you know, unethical.
Speaker 1:We'll just say
Speaker 2:that. Okay. Gotcha. So moving into your your time as an attorney, you know, there's there's things I I'm curious of about being an attorney. And I think one of the funniest ones is would you would you ever lie to a client and not lie?
Speaker 3:Let's just say because that's
Speaker 2:we know that's ethically wrong. But would you could you portray yourself as a better attorney than Joe Blow down the street? Is that I mean, I'm sure being a lawyer is competing, like, from 7:11 to QT. You want everybody to come to your shop,
Speaker 1:you know,
Speaker 2:to your to get gas at your gas station. So Yeah. Have you ever known of lawyers to to stretch the truth a little bit on how good they are?
Speaker 1:Oh, all the time. Yeah.
Speaker 2:All the time?
Speaker 1:Completely. Yeah. Not, not us. We're we're good lawyers. My firm
Speaker 3:is good. Of course. Of course.
Speaker 1:But no, I have I definitely I have heard other attorneys, overstate their credentials and, and talk, you know, negatively about, you know, the attorneys down the road. We actually have a case right now in New Mexico, that's actually going to probably change the way that, criminal defense is done there because there were some criminal defense lawyers who were, basically getting bribes from the the or law enforcement was getting bribes from the criminal defense lawyers to not show up to trial, so that their their clients could get off. And so they were saying they were guaranteeing that they could get their clients off, get them acquitted of of whatever because, they had certain police officers in their back pocket. And, and so, you know, they weren't they weren't lying, but they were also, committing crimes in doing that. So Right.
Speaker 1:Right. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right. Right. Does does your do you I'm I'm sure the lawyer world's a small world. You know? Are you, like, you ever come out of the case where, like, you and the prosecutor are, like, great friends?
Speaker 2:And then how do you handle that? You're, like, I'm gonna kick your ass at work today, but let's go have a beer afterwards. Or is it more, like, hey, go a little easy on me this time. I won't, you know, I'll be a little easier on you next time. You know, does that friendship ever come into play?
Speaker 1:Oh, daily. Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:I it's actually kind of funny, because civil law is the boring side of law. It's, you know, where there's lawsuits and and the nastier lawyers are on the civil side. The fun, nice, you know, friendly lawyers, the the ones you wanna be, you know, go have a beer with, they're your criminal lawyers, like, either prosecution or defense. And that's, you know, I'm not saying that there's not prosecutors that I loathe, because there are. But, but but I get along with a lot of prosecutors.
Speaker 1:Like, we we, you know, we have to. You you have to continue these relationships because you're gonna continue to have, cases with them in the future. And, sure, there's some antagonistic, you know, relationships to be sure, but it works much better, for both sides if both sides can be congenial. And we might not have beers together, but we're at least gonna be friendly.
Speaker 2:And I don't mean to interrupt. I know you got another question, Penny, but it brings up one more, and I'll shut up. Let my beautiful wife ask a question. So, like, before the case and let's say if you're if you are friends with the prosecutor, do you ever, like, rib them or, like, leave jokes on their, you know, prosecutor table or you're just, like, you know, hey, you know, the the whole snakes in the can thing. Right?
Speaker 2:And I just put it on their table. Like, I got you a present. You know, stuff like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Not quite to that degree, but there's there's definitely some ribbon going on between, defense and and prosecute. It makes it more fun. You know, you gotta have a little bit of lightness. So yeah.
Speaker 2:I couldn't be a lawyer in my mouth. I'd be in contempt every day.
Speaker 3:Oh my
Speaker 2:god. Every day, I'd be in contempt for something.
Speaker 1:You would be surprised what you hear in some of these, you know, especially, like, metro metro court or magistrate courts. Those courts are it is a shit show. I was trying to think of a better word for it, but that's that's it. It's just a shit show.
Speaker 2:Works for me. I I actually completely understand shit show.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:So so I I I guess with your coworkers, you know, fellow prosecutors and defense attorneys and everything like that, do you ever go before a judge who maybe doesn't like you or you don't like? And and how do you handle that? Because you see the same people a lot over and over and over being in the, circle that you you work in.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's How do you That's a really good question, and it's difficult. We have had certain judges that we've had to try and and get off of their their cases. It depends on the court that you're in. If you're in federal court, you're you're fucked.
Speaker 1:Like, that's kind of the I mean, in most most ways. And I I mostly practice federal, so they I say that with love. But but you you don't get a choice of which judge you get. So you it's in your best interest to get along with all of the judges. In state court, there's, you know, certain you can excuse me.
Speaker 1:In state court, you can get off of, certain judges. You can ask them to, to get to be excused from your case. So if you have a case, we you know, we've we've had recently, a case where a trial didn't quite go our way, and we didn't really, appreciate the way that one of the judges handled it. So the next case is we excuse that judge from that case. We might not do that forever, but, you know, in the immediate aftermath, that's, you know, a typical strategy.
Speaker 3:Okay. Okay.
Speaker 2:Is there ever a time that you feel as a defense attorney that the crime this person committed is so bad that you're just like, yeah. I am not representing you. Good luck. Have fun. Find another attorney.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. For sure. Yeah. We, yeah. And, you know, when I when I was first hired, I wasn't always a criminal defense lawyer, believe it or not.
Speaker 1:I was, I was a few things before that. I was an art teacher at one point too. But, but yeah. Yeah. I was.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I've I've had many lives. Yeah. But I
Speaker 2:judge you.
Speaker 1:What was that? I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:I think you sound you sound kinda judgey in art. I mean, I could do stick figures. I feel like you'd be judgy on my
Speaker 1:stick figures. Oh, not at all. No. Art is, you know, in the eye of the beholder. I'm a I'm a terrible artist.
Speaker 1:So art.
Speaker 2:That's awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But but no. I was I was in civil before, but when I, was first hired as a criminal defense lawyer, I was I was actually ready to quit. I became a bartender for a little while because I was just like, I'm done. I'm not I'm not gonna be, you know, in law anymore.
Speaker 1:And I gave it one more shot, and it was in criminal defense. And so when I was hired for the firm that I worked for still to this day, one of the questions was, you know, is there a type of case that you would not, consider representing someone on? And typically speaking, I don't do sex crimes. And I, you know, it's just it's not not for me. You know, I think that other people can represent people.
Speaker 1:They're they're really tough crimes to begin with. But, you know, but I used to be, an advocate for the rape crisis center. So it's just not something that I'm willing to, to do. So, so yeah. So there's there are.
Speaker 1:On, like, cases like murders, I mean, I hate to say it, but there's a lot, like, there's just a lot more leeway, with the types of, you know, murders that happen. A lot of times, like, I think when people think of people killing each other, they think it's it's malicious and it's bad and and all of these things. And I think that there's just a lot of times when things just go wrong, like, terribly wrong, and, you know, and someone ends up dead over it. So it's tragic and terrible. But it's not something that I, am personally affronted by, I guess, for the most part, depending on the situation.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. Okay. So, if you're representing a client and you know that they're going to lie, but they insist on going on the stand because they wanna plead their case or or, you know, however it wants to be for them. But you know that they're going to lie, and you've advised them not to do that. What what is your ethical responsibility in that?
Speaker 3:Do you tell the people before they get up there, the jurors or the judge or whatever, okay, no matter what he said, he's going to lie.
Speaker 2:It it's perjury. Right? You can't allow your client to commit perjury if I'm if I'm understanding the law correct.
Speaker 1:So this is one of the harder areas of the law because you have a right as a criminal defendant to take the stand. So, as a lawyer, like, you can't stop someone from taking the stand, But you also are not allowed to put a witness on who is going to commit perjury. So you have those two things in conflict with one another. So what you'd what what typically what you'll do and what you might see is that a, defense lawyer will just kinda, like, show them the way to this the witness stand and ask no questions whatsoever.
Speaker 3:So Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's it's called, you know, allowing them to give a narrative. So they'll just say, go ahead. Tell your story. And they don't ask questions because they can't you can't elicit perjury. So, like, if you know the answer is going to be a lie, you can't ask the question.
Speaker 1:So you just you let them go up there. You let them take the stand, and let them commit perjury after advising them not to. So
Speaker 3:Okay. Now doesn't doesn't once they get up there, you ask no questions. You're the defense attorney. Doesn't the prosecutor have a chance to ask them questions too? It it goes down to
Speaker 1:the back and forth? Absolutely. Yeah. They can get crushed and salmon.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. Okay.
Speaker 1:Yep. So it's it's a little advice.
Speaker 2:Right. Right. Speaking of your criminal cases in in the I'm I'm leaning more towards discovery on this. Have you ever had evidence, intentionally held back that could have exonerated your client? And then how do you deal with that if you find that out?
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's that is really tough. So that's Brady material. I think most people who are in true crime are very familiar with what, Brady means, and, it's taken very seriously. And so I I haven't come across that particular situation, but I have definitely had, times when, the state or even or the federal government even has withheld, what we think is exculpatory, evidence.
Speaker 1:And in those types of cases, you'd file motions, and you'd file motions to, dismiss the case based on Brady, or other types of sanctions. It doesn't just have to be dismissal. And if they're, you know, not completely exculpatory, it might not be dismissal, but it can be up to dismissal depending on on what it is. I haven't had that particular instance happen. I have had a case where there was very, shady information that came out that led to the investigation and prosecution of our client, in a in a murder case that, turned out to be basically, I I think the way I'm trying to think of a way because I I can't I'm not trying to give case specifics.
Speaker 1:But, the information from a physician turned out not to be true. So we'll Gotcha. We'll put it that way. Mhmm.
Speaker 3:Okay. Okay. Now at the end of a trial, if the outcome is not what the client wanted, have you, ever had a client with or or hold you totally responsible for it. You know, it's like you did this. You're the reason the outcome is like this even though you had nothing to do with it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I so the short answer is yes. We get blamed for literally everything. So, you know, it's you just become a punching bag, and I think that my my skin has definitely gotten thicker by doing this. But, you know, and sometimes it's funny.
Speaker 1:When I first started, though, I had a very, very thin skin, and was very sensitive to certain things. And so, there was a time where I it's called barbitched in in our lingo. It means when someone, files a disciplinary complaint against you, to the to the state bar. And I actually I I don't think oh, I'm gonna knock on wood for a second. I don't think I've actually been barbitched, but I was threatened to be barbitched, by another lawyer.
Speaker 1:And I broke down. I thought that, you know, my life was over, and I went to my boss. And, yeah, I thought everything was I I thought I was the most unethical lawyer ever, because this is what they're telling me, this other lawyer. And he just laughed at me, and he said, oh, okay. Now you're a criminal defense lawyer.
Speaker 1:You've been barbitched. It's like, all good. It's all good. Yeah.
Speaker 3:There you go.
Speaker 2:Believe it or not, I've been barbitched before too. I just ended up No. I don't know how business.
Speaker 3:I've been watching TV
Speaker 2:like you're a barbit.
Speaker 1:You barbit. Why?
Speaker 2:I feel like a bar bitch. I'm not I'm not a bar bitch.
Speaker 1:Shit. I
Speaker 2:like I like that
Speaker 3:too. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think I'm gonna
Speaker 2:be a damn a term on being
Speaker 1:I like it. Yeah. Use it at the bar tonight.
Speaker 2:I I do too. That let's go. We'll fly to Colorado and have a beer. Okay?
Speaker 1:I've I've got plenty of places for you out here.
Speaker 2:Is, is as far as the prosecution is concerned, is is winning cases all that matters to them? Do they do they the the prosecution, I guess, where I'm getting to is the prosecution don't give a shit about you. Right? All they care about is you're guilty, and will they go to any extreme to prove you're guilty?
Speaker 1:Depends on how unethical of a prosecutor you are. The good prosecutors are the ones who can see the whole picture. And I have had I mean, to their credit, I've had some really good prosecutors that I've, you know, come up against who see the full picture, who will give, you know, plea offers or, will otherwise try and resolve cases because they see, know, someone who's struggling who simply got caught up in, you know, a bad situation or something like that. The ones the the good prosecutors are the ones who will work with you. The bad prosecutors are the ones who will do anything and everything in their power to win.
Speaker 1:And so and there are those types. There are certainly those types. It's it's interesting. I mean, the ones that I've come across just tend to be really hard nosed, and they think that they're they're right. And I think, you know, my biggest thing in all of this, in the whole criminal justice system in general, is that you have to if in order to believe in the criminal justice system, to think that people, you know, being prosecuted is a good thing, you have to believe that you're always right.
Speaker 1:And, you know, there might be some of us who might be always right here in the room with us, but See.
Speaker 2:That's what that's what she is always right. I never even
Speaker 3:I knew that was wronged once, but I was mistaken.
Speaker 2:So because because there's a
Speaker 1:lot of lawyers
Speaker 2:for for marriage arguments. I think I might have to start calling 1. She's like, I counted the 3 and I said my piece. I'm like, I don't even get a say. I didn't present my case.
Speaker 1:They should have those. I mean, you know, there's family lawyers. They but, you know, and mediators and things like that, but somewhere somewhere in between.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:Yes. So so with that, so there are, I guess, certain lawyers out there that maybe are just in it for the money. They they don't care if they're right, they're wrong. They're gonna get paid anyway. I just want the money.
Speaker 3:That's, you know, I got my boat to pay off and, you know, $400,000 in student loans and, you know, so they're just in it for the money. Have you come across people like that?
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Like that.
Speaker 3:No. Oh, am I?
Speaker 1:Oh, yes. Oh, I'm just in it for the money. Can't you see I'm rolling in the dough here? I'm, you know, I'm on a a podcast. Making so much money.
Speaker 2:Like, a table set dress you're wearing, it's perfect. Alright. We can we can see you. I I see the clothes.
Speaker 1:That's right. Yeah. No. But there are there definitely are.
Speaker 3:Yeah. How how do you tell those once, you know, let's say I'm looking for a lawyer and, you know, I I speak with a couple. How how am I going to know? Is there something that maybe I can pick up on, that would help me go? Okay.
Speaker 3:He's just in it for the money, and he seems like he really wants to help me. Is there something I can pick up on?
Speaker 2:I think what she's asking is, should she get 3 or 4 estimates, man, before picking up on the car?
Speaker 3:You didn't like getting your porch fixed?
Speaker 2:Do you get estimates? Or,
Speaker 3:I mean, you just go with the first one that calls you back. I don't I don't know.
Speaker 1:It depends on how desperate you are. I mean Right.
Speaker 3:I am desperate.
Speaker 1:If you're in jail and you have one call, you know, you you probably wanna take the first one that you get. No. But no. But but in all seriousness, I I think that I think you gotta trust your gut. You know, I think a lot of the times, you know, you'll have the attorneys who will guarantee you results, and I would say far away from those ones because you shouldn't be doing that anyway.
Speaker 1:And then you have the ones who are going to give you kind of a bigger picture, and they might tell you things that you don't wanna hear. And those are probably the ones you wanna hire, or the ones that are going to tell you, you know, straight up to your face, you know, this is this is what we're looking at. You know, you don't want the ones who are, like, thinking straight to to a plea necessarily, but they might be the ones who are saying, okay, well, you know, this is what this is gonna look like. These are these are the costs, and the ones who are gonna tell you upfront of, you know, of what each thing, that you're gonna be going through is is going to cost and and what you're gonna be looking at, what your, what the expectations are. A lot of the times when we get consults, as an example or when I talk to someone on the phone, I'm gonna tell them straight up that I don't know anything about their case until I've looked at the discovery, until I've looked at the evidence.
Speaker 1:And so any information that I'm giving you is purely based on, you know, a criminal complaint, which doesn't tell me anything. And so, I can give you generalities, but and I can tell you what I think the legal process is going to look like. But I can't tell you anything until I've actually sat down and looked at what the evidence is.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Going back to to dealing with the officers, if you don't mind backtracking a little bit, I I want to know personally, in your opinion only, not legal advice. If if an officer comes and knocks on my door for any reason, do I open that door? Do I just like, yeah, I'm not interested, you know, go down the street. How how do I handle that? And to parter here, if I do invite that officer in and let's just say, you know, hypothetically speaking, I've got, like, £18 of weed on the table.
Speaker 2:Can he arrest me at that point?
Speaker 1:Sure. Yeah. These are good questions.
Speaker 2:On the table. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I'll take them in in in 3 parts. I'm gonna take the the knock first. I think that you can pretend not to be home unless you hear someone saying search warrant. If you hear search warrant, you gotta let them in. But, you know, if the if it's just someone knocking on your door, you you don't have to answer your door.
Speaker 1:You you just like anybody else. Right? It does depend again. It depends on what state you're in, so bear that in mind. But if you do answer the door, if you're being polite, whatever, then, you know, you you don't have to invite them into your house, and you should not invite them into your house.
Speaker 1:If anything, you know, leave as little space between, you know, you and the doors as possible so that they can't see anything in Plainview because that is an exception to the search warrant, that to getting a search warrant is if something is in Plainview, you can get arrested for it. So if you have £18 of weed and the officer sees it, they they they don't have to just, like, be blind to it. They will probably get a search warrant, but they'll probably also arrest you or at least detain you while they're getting a search warrant to get whatever else is in your house. So that's why you don't want Okay. You know, someone, law enforcement in your house.
Speaker 3:That's why you always keep your weed in your bedroom. Right. So it's not the
Speaker 2:leaky. Right. Something just can be real quick. And I don't right. I don't mean to derail, but I'll you know, you watch these movies.
Speaker 2:Right? And as a cop, they come into this house and they found $200,000 in cash. I always tell myself, no, I found a $100,000 in cash. Have you ever came across anything like that? Right?
Speaker 2:Because I don't know if I could be a good cop. If I if I say children, I'm taking half. That's contraception. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, there is. I mean,
Speaker 3:I spent my time in here. Right. Well, I gotta get paid somehow.
Speaker 1:That's right. I have seen some crooked cops. Like, I mean, in all honesty, I I have seen, I have had clients who have told me that they had more money than, than what they get back. I have had clients who have not gotten their, their stuff back from law enforcement. In fact, it's really hard to get stuff back from law enforcement a lot of times.
Speaker 1:They're they don't make it easy, which is kind of crazy because you think that the 4th amendment would mean something to them, but clearly doesn't. So Right. Right.
Speaker 3:So so I wanna know when you meet people, being a lawyer, do when you meet them, and you're just having casual conversation, do you let them know what your profession is? Or do you kinda hold back on that because you found that maybe when you tell people what you do for a living, they're like, can I get some advice on this? Or I mean, how do you how do you handle something like that?
Speaker 1:Oh, sure. Yeah. I think I try to withhold, my profession, unless I'm asked directly what I do. You know, I obviously, I'm I'm talking about it now. I I like talking about being a lawyer.
Speaker 1:I love being a lawyer, but I don't want to be in a situation. I people tend to treat you a little bit differently too, like, when you when you tell them that you're
Speaker 2:a lawyer.
Speaker 1:And when I'm out at, you know, a bar or if I'm out at, like, a show or something like that, I don't want, you know, people to be, you know, acting a different way around me or thinking or like you said, thinking that they can ask for legal advice. I do get that a lot. And I can't give it. I can't give legal advice. A, I'm not practicing the state that I live in right now.
Speaker 1:I don't practice in the state that I live in. I mean, but, but, b, you know, I can't I can't do that unless we have some kind of a legal relationship. So I have had people give me dollars and say, oh, you're my legal representative now and
Speaker 3:Hey, Scott.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like, well, you technically, you don't have to give me a dollar, but I'll take it. So Right. Right.
Speaker 3:Right. Put it right here in this. No. I'm just kidding. I'm kidding.
Speaker 3:But yeah. I mean I mean, I was just wondering because, I can I can say that that, I have worked in detention center before? And when people ask me what I do, I just kinda elaborated. I never told them, oh, I work for, you know, maybe
Speaker 2:She didn't elaborate. She lied her ass off.
Speaker 3:No. Technically, I I would tell people that I worked in a adult day care. You know, I mean, it's not really a lie. I'm there watching them. I just didn't specifically tell them because, I know at that time that, you know, a lot of people were targeting, you know, law enforcement, you know, because a lot of people didn't have a good relationship with with them.
Speaker 3:So, you know, I was I was just curious.
Speaker 2:You see what I do?
Speaker 1:You see
Speaker 2:what I deal with? The way she the way she skirts all the conversations. Right? If it's or she's like, technically, it's not a lie.
Speaker 3:I mean, it's really not.
Speaker 2:I'm like, who's Sancho? She's like the pool guy. I'm like, we got a 3 foot pool from Walmart. Do we really need a guy out here cleaning
Speaker 3:it? Well, I've got a pool. So Do you
Speaker 1:know what it takes? Yeah. It's gotta have a pull, guys. So,
Speaker 2:I know we're getting close to wrapping this up, and I have a couple of dumb questions. Okay?
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:Would you represent me if I said the word bomb on an airplane or fire in the theater? And how far does free speech actually go?
Speaker 1:No. This is a that's a very good question. And we probably have that could be a whole episode by itself is, is the bounds of freedom of speech. So, you know, I think time, place, and manner is the biggest thing to keep in mind when it comes to freedom of speech. So you cannot say bomb on an airplane.
Speaker 1:You cannot say fire in a theater, and that's because those, words in that time, place, and manner, is going to cause some kind of alert that could, you know, cause a riot of some sort. So, would I still represent you? Probably. Absolutely. I'd still represent you.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying, you know It's
Speaker 2:not over.
Speaker 3:She's gotta pay her boat off something. I'm just saying.
Speaker 1:Exactly. My yacht.
Speaker 3:Oh, there you go.
Speaker 2:I see. I see.
Speaker 3:I see.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. It's right there.
Speaker 2:So So, I think we're basically out of questions, man. Anything new for us? I mean, because we're we're kinda we're kinda weird. So
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. I mean, well, I we we met obviously at a at a festival, and so you guys have been doing the podcasting thing for a while. You know, so, obviously, you know, your podcast isn't geared necessarily towards true crime, but what got you into podcasting? What's you know, what was the
Speaker 2:impetus? Well
Speaker 3:The Rona.
Speaker 2:It it kinda was
Speaker 1:in some There it is.
Speaker 2:At something we do, but it's a ball now because we don't fit a certain genre. Right? We're not true crime. We don't we do not touch politics. I think you alienate half your audience on that.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. You just like to tell bullshit stories about our marriage and everything and and kinda how we've gotten through 20 years almost of marriage. But what turned out to for something for us to do what I never stopped working during during coronavirus,
Speaker 1:but
Speaker 2:but turned into a time for us to spend at least an hour a week together having a conversation. And that's why we continue because we're not in a certain genre. Our podcast has grown to the to the degree I feel like it has, but maybe I'm the only one that thinks we're funny.
Speaker 3:Oh, no. I I think we're funny, and I just feel we could ever get somebody really famous to listen to us and see the some of the funny stories that this guy comes up with and and stuff like that. I feel that we're just gonna take off because I've gotten to the point. I cannot listen in public to our podcast because I laugh like an idiot. And I will have people looking at me, like, what is wrong with you?
Speaker 3:And I'm, like, I'm sorry, podcast, you know, can't do it. So
Speaker 1:I think it's important to make yourselves laugh. So yeah. You're doing everything right
Speaker 2:now. It's a time killer for us. And if you do decide to listen, we we're we're we can try to keep it to 30 minutes, drive home, drive to work. Yeah. You know?
Speaker 1:Make it simple.
Speaker 2:I keep trying to get people to email us. Like, just tell us we're dumb. Right? And then I can I work better off of other people? Right?
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah. And feed off of.
Speaker 2:I've been I've been trying to talk to her into doing, like, a 10 minute livestream or something. And and I think she's worried about the trolls, but I live for the trolls. I I
Speaker 3:live for them.
Speaker 1:They're kind of fun. They are. Yeah.
Speaker 2:They're all kind of fun. And and this is a, a new a new venture for you. Am I correct?
Speaker 1:Yes. Yeah. So this is, like I said, this is my inaugural. I'm doing this, on my own. I'm gonna be, having guests on such as yourselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You're the first, to to talk about these kinds of things, not necessarily always q and a, but I I figured it'd be kind of fun. It's, you know, it's it's fun to to talk about these kinds of things. It's fun to to answer questions. It's fun to ask questions.
Speaker 1:But, like, but my my stick is that, you know, I I love true crime as well as being a criminal defense lawyer. So, you know, I'm trying to get people on to talk about true crime and, with a lens towards, some of the legal questions that come up, but there are often common misconceptions.
Speaker 2:Is it okay to tell people where they can find us here at the end?
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. Absolutely. So, yeah. I'll let you I think we're so so thank you both so much for, for coming on for being for being my very first. I feel, you know, very honored to have, to have both of you.
Speaker 1:You're both lovely people and, but I and I love your podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:So, yeah. So where do we find you? What? Tell tell the people.
Speaker 2:Find us wherever you yeah. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts, YouTube, Apple, Spotify, Iheartradio. We're we're everywhere, and apparently, we're nowhere. But we're Yeah.
Speaker 3:We're a lot of nowhere.
Speaker 2:Yeah. We're a lot of nowhere. We're me and missus Always. Right? You know, you can yeah.
Speaker 2:Look us up.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. You can find us on, YouTube.
Speaker 2:I think I just said that.
Speaker 3:Did you
Speaker 2:say that?
Speaker 3:I did.
Speaker 2:I did.
Speaker 3:I don't know. Anyway. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It doesn't hurt to say advice. Yeah. Make sure
Speaker 2:that people don't know. We we appreciate it that you you and and your partner, we we interviewed at the time up in in Denver, were great. You were you were open, and those were really my first interviews to be honest with you. Really? Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:I I just saw Wing did and made that shit up, man. It wasn't even funny. Yeah. Oh, you
Speaker 1:know, this is told me as a professional. So
Speaker 2:Well, thank you.
Speaker 3:This really has been a lot of fun. I mean, I I I feel that I've learned a lot. I just feel that, yeah, that they would teach a lot more of the constitution, your rights, and everything in in school. So people, young people that may have started off on the wrong foot, not anybody I know
Speaker 2:Really?
Speaker 3:You know, would be more informed.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:I I really
Speaker 3:feel that it should happen.
Speaker 1:I yeah. It it should be something that is taught early and often, but but it's in, you know, someone's best interest for it not to be. So Mhmm. Yeah. You know, until then, we can talk about it on podcasts and and hope that people listen.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So Yeah. Now where can we find find you specifically? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Where will
Speaker 3:you be watching this?
Speaker 2:Google So autumn inaugural episode. Yes.
Speaker 1:Yes. So I I will be launching this everywhere. I will be on, Apple, on Spotify, on, Amazon, on all of the major podcast, Google. I haven't decided if I'm gonna be on YouTube or not, but I've we'll see. I think
Speaker 2:you should.
Speaker 1:We'll see. Okay. Alright. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And your podcast is Juris Arranged. All one work is arranged.
Speaker 1:Juris Arranged. Juris Arrange.
Speaker 2:I can't I can't speak Latin.
Speaker 1:Well, it's like Juris Juris Doctor. So, like, you your, your law degree is a Juris Juris Doctor, so it's just a Juris Duranged instead.
Speaker 2:I love your play on words.
Speaker 3:You're so smart. I'm not that creative.
Speaker 1:Oh, it was This is fun.
Speaker 2:Alright. Well, we appreciate you having us in.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Thank you, guys. Thanks. I really appreciate you guys. No.
Speaker 1:Alright. No. Thank you. Hopefully, hopefully, we'll do this again.
Speaker 3:Okay. Yes. Alright.
Speaker 2:Please. If you ever get to a low spot and you're like, yeah. I just need to kill Tom, we're your people.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Awesome. Well, I really enjoyed this, and thank you.
Speaker 3:Alright. Alright.
Speaker 1:Till next time. Bye. Nothing in this podcast is intended to be legal advice. The contents of this podcast are purely for entertainment and arguably educational purposes only. Find this podcast and all major streaming platforms and on social media sites at jurist.derang And email me atjuris.deranged@gmail.com if you want to be a guest or have ideas for the show.
Speaker 1:If you like this podcast, rate, review, and subscribe on your favorite platform. Thank you for listening, and stay deranged.