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The WorkOps Podcast is your weekly conversation with HR leaders and People Ops practitioners doing the real work.
In every episode we dig into one story. A process that went sideways, a system that just didn't work, and what someone actually did about it. Packed with practical lessons you'll want to bring back to your team. Whether you're supporting 500 employees or 5,000, this is how the best People leaders are building for what comes next.
Michael & Jeet
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[00:00:00] I think it was hard to keep good people. ~And, ~and I know started to notice it is ~when, ~when you see someone leaving and they're getting offered, ~like,~ double their salary as it currently stands, you know you probably have a process problem somewhere in there where ~like, ~okay, you are willing to pay this person.
It's, ~you know, ~it's a ~pretty, ~pretty, ~uh,~ common problem, I think, where if you're willing to pay this person that, then why would you not pay it now?
Welcome to the Work Ops podcast. In every episode, we dig into one story, a process that went sideways, a system that just didn't work, and what someone actually did about it. It's packed with practical lessons that you'll want to bring straight back to your team. This podcast is brought to you by Kinfolk, the AI service desk built for HR.
I'm your host, Jeet Mukherjee, and with that, let's dive in.
All right. Hey, everybody. Today I'm joined by Michael MacArthur, who's the COO of Recharge and the former head of people at Qualtrics. Michael, thanks ~for, ~for joining us today. Good to be here. Thank you. Yeah. And, ~uh,~ interesting, ~uh,~ [00:01:00] change from the people space to the COO space. So before we kinda jump into things, can you tell us a little bit about that journey and how you are where you are today?
Yeah. Yeah. A l- a little bit of luck ~and some, ~and some good teammates as well. So came over here to Recharge on the people side, ~um,~ and we are growing quickly. A lot's been changing in the five years that I've been here, and some opportunity opened up to own some more. I was actually in the RevOps space originally, and I had a coworker, ~uh,~ I'll shout out George, ~um,~ who I worked with at Qualtrics and then worked with at Recharge, who had spoken up and said, "Hey, Michael could probably do this, do a good job with this."
And so good leaders as well that gave me the chance to do something maybe I had no right in doing. And from there, just continued to get more responsibility ~and, ~and now I'm the COO. So excited to be part of that journey with Recharge, but again, I think ~good, ~good people who, ~uh,~ spoke up for me, ~um,~ and then, ~uh,~ some leaders that let me take s- take some risks with me.
So I appreciate that. Nice. And ~that's, ~that's how we're here. Awesome. And, ~uh,~ we are [00:02:00] seeing more and more that those roles ~are, ~are starting to merge ~in, ~in some ways. ~Um, ~what are some of the similarities that you're seeing s- with your previous role ~and, ~and what you're doing now, and what is different? Yeah.
Yeah. I think, ~uh, a, ~a lot that translated for me was, ~uh,~ knowing how, what people want, how to motivate them, ~uh,~ how to get them working together well. I think that's a lot of the COO job as well. How do we do these cross-functional tasks? ~Um, ~how are we efficient? And those were skill sets I think I learned from the people side on really understanding humans and how to get them to ~work, ~work well together.
And so that, that's been super helpful. And then having the context as COO of something that I didn't expect is ~like, ~oh, I see like how maybe as just a people leader I was ~kind of ~annoying about some stuff, like that maybe had lower impact honestly. ~Like, ~here are ~the, ~the broad set of things we're trying to do as a company, and how do you stack rank those?
And not saying those people things aren't important, but maybe there was a different priority at the time, and like I wouldn't have seen that, ~um,~ if I just had my people hat on. And having that business lens [00:03:00] on kinda helps you prioritize a lot differently. So if I were to go back to just, ~you know, ~the people side of things, I think that would help me out a lot being able to un- understand the whole business scope.
Yeah, exactly. And e-exactly as you said, like, how do we link the people priorities to the commercial priorities and the overall strategic goals? And we found that, ~um,~ the more commercially minded HR leaders who are able to do that and who have been given the opportunity to do that are invariably more successful.
~Uh, ~and it sounds like you would've done the same thing if you were ~to, ~to go back. Yeah, definitely. Good stuff. ~Well, let's, ~let's take you back a little bit to your, ~uh,~ to your time, ~uh,~ as head of people and in the HR space. ~Um, ~we usually cover a dysfunctional HR process, ~um,~ or a system that didn't work out.
So hit me with it. What type of company were you at? Sure. And what was the process or system that didn't work? Yeah. So ~I'll go, ~I'll go back to ~the, ~the Qualtrics days, ~um,~ which was ~a, ~a great company. ~Um, ~when I was there, I think I was around employee 250, and when I left, we were at about [00:04:00] 2,500. Wow. Amazing growth.
Got to work with the smartest people I think I've ever worked with collectively there. Really cool opportunity. I think where a process that was broken that I noticed a few times, and definitely as I left, was we were so science and no art on the people side. ~And, ~and what I mean by that is, ~like,~ we were so process driven.
~Hmm. ~So for promotions, ~um,~ essentially, like you had to be in C for X number of months. Even if you'd been doing the work really well, it was like, "All right, but had you hit the 18-month mark?" No? Then, ~like,~ you gotta wait another six months. And, ~you know, ~same thing as we did ratings, it was a forced curve. I think all things that were good, ~um,~ intentioned, but because there was no art to it, ~um,~ it was really hard- Yeah
to, I think-- Oh, that started to scale into a problem where I think it was hard to keep good people. ~And, ~and I know started to notice it is ~when, ~when you see someone leaving and they're getting offered, ~like,~ double their salary as it currently stands, you know you probably have a process problem somewhere in there where ~like, ~okay, you are willing to pay this person.
[00:05:00] It's, ~you know, ~it's a ~pretty, ~pretty, ~uh,~ common problem, I think, where if you're willing to pay this person that, then why would you not pay it now? ~Um, ~and so that- Yeah ... just started to pop up more and more, I think. I think we lost some good talent because of it. But, ~um, um, ~how to fix it, I think ~it's, ~it's just how do you start to involve more of maybe the art, more context, and, ~uh,~ I think it's really-- We can talk about that more.
I think it's really hard to do at scale. I actually don't know how to- ~Hmm ~... at scale. ~It, ~it sounds like you did solve it, though, at 2,500 people, or did it not get solved? ~Uh, ~I don't know if it was solved by the time I left. I think that's hard. ~I, ~I was thinking about that, ~um- ~Which is, it was really easy, 250 people, like it's really easy ~at, ~at Recharge because, ~you know, ~it's a smaller team.
You pretty much know everything that's going on. ~You know ~most of the teams. ~Um, you know, at, ~at Qualtrics we were in, at that point, 18 different countries, ~you know, ~2,500 people. How do you do that fairly across that many people? And ~how do you, ~how do you get the context to make those decisions and trade-offs where you do have an overlying budget, can't just break the budget.
Yeah. So ~how do you, ~how do you shift those around with so many peoples and so many [00:06:00] functions? I don't know. ~Like, I, ~I really don't. I think how do you get more context is, and hopefully AI is part of the answer there, but I think, I don't think it'll ever be perfect. I think you just have to- Yeah ... get the right process in place that's the most fair.
I don't know how you could do that perfectly, and you never miss someone who's doing more work that deserves more money. I just don't know if that's possible. Yeah. ~And, ~and we all know and have lived through performance management systems or performance review processes that just doesn't quite capture that stuff, or it tries to and it over-indexes on context and, ~uh,~ it becomes too subjective at times.
Yep. And how, ~uh,~ how did you change things while you were there to bring in a little bit more context and to make sure you didn't lose more people who were performing higher ~than, ~than they were? Yeah. ~I think, ~I think we were in a lucky spot there ~where, ~where Qualtrics is just an exciting company to be at.
It was an obvious, ~like,~ jumping board. Like I said, you get to work with really smart people. You're working on cool problems. Again, another place I was doing stuff I probably shouldn't have been allowed to do, like leading that [00:07:00] function. ~I, ~I'd come in just to do sales comp and again, ~like, you know, ~just was able to get more experience, good leaders that bet on me and being part of a startup.
And so I was just trying to figure it out. ~Um, ~I, I don't think, I don't-- It wasn't a problem I was able to solve while I was there, and I don't know ~how they're, ~how they're doing it now. ~Um, ~but I think how we do it now at Recharge and how we try and address that is multiple touchpoints. So how often do we look at things like comp and performance, look at equity?
And then again, it's less of a problem for us because we're at about 400 employees and- ~Hmm ~... we're able to have that context and really understand what everyone's working on, what are the big pillars that are being moved, and how do we reward those groups differently. So I think it's a size problem that I don't have right now.
Yeah. If someone's figured that out at scale, please let me know, ~um, how to do, ~how to do it perfectly or near perfect. I'd love to hear it. You might get some people reaching out ~who, ~who listen to this who might have figured it out. ~Um- ~Yeah. No, that'd be great. And, ~uh,~ in terms of what you're doing ~at, ~at Recharge now, it sounds like there's no ~like, ~"Hey, you-- every year this is the [00:08:00] time and we promote or we don't promote."
It sounds like you're doing it all, as they say, off cycle. ~Uh, ~is that right? We've got guidelines. So we still have a process- ~Mm ~... where we look at something like we look ~at, ~at cash essentially every six months. We're looking at equity annually. But we don't force the process. So you don't have to be in seat X number of months.
~Like, ~do we want performance over time? Absolutely. ~You know, ~we don't have a forced ratings curve. Do we calibrate in meetings cross-functionally and talk about ~like, "Here's, ~here's what my team's working on, here's what your team's working on," and talk through that to how do we balance this budget and work through that?
Absolutely. So I think it's a little bit of both, where we don't just throw process to the wind. ~I, ~I don't know ~if, ~if I could survive in a system like that where everything was just one-off, ~um,~ e-even at a smaller scope. But it's how do you mix the process and the art? At least that's what's worked well for me.
Yeah. Tell me a little bit more about art. ~Uh- ~Yeah ... and how, what that means to you and how do you feed it into the process. Yeah. It's everything outside of the process. So right at you-- The written [00:09:00] down process for us would be, all right, we're gonna look at your pay in this April cycle, and we're gonna do, ~you know, ~this loose rating system.
We're not gonna force it, but here's ~kind of ~what we're looking at. And then the art is how do you have those conversations behind the scene, which is You know, we're coming in cross-functionally as leaders. The engineering team had this amazing project. They've pushed these things forward. Here's something that someone on an operations team who's less seen also worked at, and how do we balance the budget between these groups who are all doing good things?
~Mm. ~Again, it all comes down to we have a finite budget. We're still running a business and have to be smart on how we use our cash and use it the best way possible. And so that's the art. I think it's just cal- calibration, having, ~like,~ very transparent, open conversations with the people involved- ~Mm ~... in the process, and ~that's, ~that's the art for me.
We always... ~I'm, ~I'm a comp guy, so we always talk about the art there in that process, which is like you can have your bands, you can have exactly ~like, you know, ~what you wanna do, and then there's some art where it's like our understanding this might be a little different than the benchmark- ~Mm ~... how [00:10:00] the world or Radford or Pave, whoever we use for benchmarking, sees this job.
So we're gonna- Yeah ... tweak it a little bit, not just going off of here's what's written. Yeah, and ~that sounds, ~that sounds great. It sounds hard. It sounds hard to communicate where the constraints of the art will push towards. Yeah. And you have a band, but then how far do you go, and what are the certain definitions?
How have you found, ~uh,~ communicating that particularly to managers? 'Cause, ~you know, ~we've seen in previous companies ~and, ~and other s- folks that we speak with ~that ~that is really hard to get, and then that's when you... calibration becomes another process in order to make that disappear, that uncertainty disappear.
Yeah. ~I mean, I think, ~I think we-- it's, for us, it's just taking the time to have the actual conversations and be transparent about it. ~Mm. ~Where we don't skimp on calibration meetings. We have- ... a lot of those, sometimes multiple ~at, ~at different levels because- Yeah ... we also wanna make sure if someone, ~you know, ~and sometimes you don't make a decision that the manager is on board with, at least they understand [00:11:00] how we got there.
I think that's always my goal. Not everyone's always gonna agree with the processes, especially when it comes to compensation, right? Yeah. No, no one ever feels like they're 100% being paid the, what they should be paid, at least nowhere I've ever worked. And, ~um,~ a-and at least if they understand here's the compensation philosophy, here's where we benchmark- Yes
~you know, ~here's how we decide it, and then you walk them through the process of how you get to this one individual pay increase- ~Mm ~... then at least they understand it. And I think ~that's, ~that's the most sometimes we can do, is be really transparent about the process, make sure people understand- ~Mm ~... why we've done what we've done, even if they don't agree with it.
Gotcha. So I'd love to dig into that a bit more. It's, you're talking about transparency in the process, not necessarily transparency in terms of this is everybody's salaries, and this is your compensation, and this is what you get, right? Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Where do you draw that line of transparency and how much you're willing to share?
And does the transparency actually differ from level to level, or does everybody ~kind of ~get the same level of transparency? Yeah. Hopefully [00:12:00] everyone understands the compensation philosophy. This is a good reminder for me. It might be time for another refresher for the company ~on, ~on how we look at things.
I did them a lot when I started. I don't know if we've done it for a minute. ~Um, ~and I think this, that constant education helps with that broad transparency. Obviously, I think it... And then it ends with ~like, ~if you're not this person's manager, you probably don't know what they're getting paid. ~Um- ~Yes ... we don't share that broadly across managers.
~Um, ~but really just m- more transparency around the process, around the philosophy so that they understand why we're doing the things that we're doing. I like it. And it sounds like you're also separating, ~um,~ performance reviews, ~uh, with, ~with, ~uh,~ celebrating someone's achievements and then compensating for that, or is it still pretty coupled by the sound of things?
It's a, it's... ~We, ~we do ~kind of ~two things. ~We look, ~we look at pay twice a year, and we do annual ratings and this performance cycle, ~uh,~ formally ~once a, ~once a year. So we kind of couple two of them together. Another time ~it's, ~it's not coupled. We're just looking at like our, who's performing, who's [00:13:00] done big things, who are the people we need to make sure that we're locked in, ~um,~ and just making sure we're at least looking at it formally twice a year.
~Um- ~Yeah ... again, like you said, we've, there's plenty of informal conversations around compensation always, but ~I like to, ~I like to also have these are the formal times 'cause I want employees to know what to expect and have some expectation there. I think it's... ~I'm going off topic here.~ Yeah. But we talked about this a little bit.
What if it was all off the cuff, like all just as you go? Then the employee has no, there's no expectations for them. It's very confusing. Like- Yeah ... when should I be talking to someone? ~Should I be, ~should I be having a calm conversation now, or should I wait? And they don't really know what to expect, and therefore they don't know how to operate.
Yeah. So I like clarity in that way. ~Um, now I forget, G, what were we even talking about? ~. But I wanted to ask you, since, ~uh,~ it, in this world of AI, you, you touched on this earlier on, there may be a better way to get more context and therefore lean into the art.
~Uh, ~how far are you guys on that journey, or is this something that you're starting to explore? Yeah, just something we're starting to explore, ~um,~ in all aspects ~of, ~of the [00:14:00] people side. ~Um, ~and just using technology better I think is interesting. I just saw, there was something cool I just saw where ~we, ~we tr- we might just copy it and build it ourselves, but there was a, there's an engagement tool and, ~you know, ~usually engagement surveys ~kind of ~die.
So ~it's, it's a, ~it's a company I know called Nectar that does engagement. ~Mm-hmm. ~And they just launched this new feature where you're able to interact anonymously. So if someone says, "Hey, I'm, ~you know, ~I really don't l- I'm not engaged in my work," you can- Yeah ... then go and chat with them from the backside.
You don't know who they are. so it's anonymous, and you're saying, "All right, ~well,~ why are you not engaged?" You can glean more context and more information than, ~like,~ a static survey where you can't ever follow up on that question unless they left a comment or whatever it might be. So I think stuff like that is really interesting.
~Um, ~and in the AI-- in the age of AI, ~right,~ it's all who has the most context. That's how you build power in these solutions. Yeah. So how do we get more context from our employees on what they're going through, how they're feeling that can actually help us then go solve their problems? And that might be AI or just the different way we're using [00:15:00] technology as in that case.
But for me, it's just how do we build that context and get as much information as possible. Very cool. ~And, ~and I like that you mentioned engagement. So even in your COO seat, ~um,~ a lot of the time we hear that some leaders find it difficult to connect a metric like engagement to those business metrics and ~like, ~"Hey, why should we be doing these engagement surveys anyway?"
~Um, what's your, ~what's your philosophy there, ~uh,~ in terms of engagement and- Yeah ... business metrics? My-- I like to see-- For me, it's more, ~uh,~ honestly about ~like ~Recharge historical. ~Like, ~I care less about what Anthropic's engagement score is compared to mine. Unless they're going through exactly what we're going through, it doesn't mean anything to me, external benchmarking there, so it has to be very similar to us.
~Mm-hmm. ~So what I like to see is what are these threads? How are these teams trending? How are they viewing their specific managers? And that helps me understand, ~like,~ maybe what's going ~on ~on that side of the business beyond just the output that I see. Yeah. So for me, that's really important, is getting that context on how that team's feeling and what are their problems, and then I can go help solve those to solve the [00:16:00] business outcome.
Like it. And you said something interesting earlier, which is, "Hey, we might just build it ourselves." ~Uh, ~what are you seeing in, in the space that you're ~in ~in terms of those build versus buy or build and buy decisions that are taking place- Yeah ... these days with AI? I think it's really tricky ~with, ~with the people side.
I was-- We're-- Especially let's talk about that functionality we were talking about where you get to en-engage anonymously with someone. Does that person actually believe this is anonymous if I built this software with AI? ~Like, ~maybe not. ~And, ~and I think that's like a... ~You have to, ~you have to balance that, which is like they have to trust that, ~like,~ especially in a lot of the people stuff, sensitive information has to stay really sensitive.
And ~so, you know, when, ~when we started talking about ~that, that's what, ~that's what, ~uh,~ our current head of people, they're like, "Yeah, but will they think it's anonymous? Will they actually believe it's anonymous even if we build it anonymous, ~like,~ if it's, ~uh,~ if it's a software we built?" ~Right. ~I'm like, yeah, ~that's,~ that's a fair pushback.
So I think for me, build versus buy, ~um,~ I also don't wanna- Be an internal tech team. ~Like, ~I wanna use the best tools out there, so if they're there and they do a good job and we trust them, then I'd [00:17:00] rather, then I'd rather buy. ~Uh, ~but I think- Yeah ... there's point solutions you can build to solve specific problems, whether it's like quick pulse engagement surveys through a Slack bot, sure, like we can build that easy.
And- Yeah ... and that, that's gonna be a great tool for us. ~Um, ~but something goes deeper where you're getting more personal opinions and things people don't wanna share, ~uh,~ broadly- ... ~then, ~then I'll buy. Gotcha. So it sounds like trust ~is a, ~is a big thing, and it sounds like speed is also another factor that you're thinking about.
~Like, ~"Hey, is it gonna be better just to bring something in that already does what we need to do versus invest time, ~uh,~ and be an internal dev shop?" ~Um, ~are there other kind of factors that you think about or that you share with your team as COO when they're thinking about solving a particular solution, ~uh,~ with AI, whether they should build or buy?
Yeah. ~I mean, we're just, ~we're just trying to figure that out. ~Um, ~I think it's... ~We, ~we talk a lot about Recharge. as what do we own the right to do? What do we own- ~Mm ~... the right to, whether bui- build or buy. And so is this a tool that our context will help make it better if we own it? For [00:18:00] example, ~you know, ~a Recharge chatba- ch- chatbot that the merchants are using, but also we can use internally to help train it, so we're both asking it the same thing.
Where right now maybe there's just tools that are gonna be external facing and there's different tool internal facing. So how... Should we, ~should,~ should we build that ourselves because both contexts together is gonna make it a lot more powerful, so we have the right to go and do that? Where like I don't wanna go rebuild Zendesk or any of these tools, right?
~We, ~we don't wanna build our own, ~uh,~ ticketing system that really works well and can, and is, and we can move fast with- within, but do we own the right to something, and does it help serve our bigger mission of ~like, ~essentially does it make our merchants more successful? So- Yeah ... ~that's, ~that's what we look at ~is, ~is if we build this ourselves, is it gonna be better for our merchants?
They're not gonna care or it's worse, and that's like a pretty easy, simple framework we look at things through. I like that. It's like what's gonna deliver the most value for your internal customers, ~uh,~ effectively- Yeah ... ~and, ~and how do you get the most value for them as quickly as possible. Yeah. And, ~um,~ that [00:19:00] then leads me to the next question of, ~well,~ there's probably a lot of different pieces of friction, and therefore a lot of different areas of opportunity to improve.
And now with AI at everybody's fingertips, if you're curious enough, you're probably gonna be like, "Hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna point myself at this problem, and I'm just gonna go try and fix it." ~How do you, ~how do you manage that? 'Cause Recharge sounds like a really exciting company. It sounds like people are, have that mindset to go and solve problems ~and, ~and build solutions.
~Um, ~are you getting a lot of ~like ~AI solutions popping up from different places, or do you guys have ~a, ~a system ~to, ~to manage what's being built internally versus bought? Yeah. ~Uh, we're, ~we're trying-- I think ~we're, ~we're in the phase of, "Hey, everyone has Claude now." We're trying- Yeah ... to connect and be really smart about what access and information ha- people have, ~um,~ and letting them just figure out how to use the tools.
And honestly- Yeah ... like we're, I think we're in the middle stages of that, where we need to be more prescriptive about, ~like,~ "Hey, do we want everyone on this team building their own, ~you know, ~agents for this thing, or should we create this ourselves ~and, ~and spread it out widely?" And it's hard when you're moving fast, you've got other things in the [00:20:00] business.
Like really you're-- we're super merchant-obsessed, ~so,~ so we're working with our merchants every day. How do we make them better? And then internally- Yeah ... how do we do this at the same time? And honestly, like it's, we're just trying to figure it out. ~Um- ~Yeah ... ~you know. I mean, ~we-we're doing the best that we can.
I'm really glad you said that 'cause, ~uh,~ on social media, like LinkedIn, there's always these posts where it's like, "Oh, ~we've,~ we've figured it out, and here's the answer." But in reality, it feels like everyone's ~kind of ~making it up as they go along. And the space is moving so fast that actually it feels like y-you ~kind of ~have to be in that mess and be comfortable with that mess.
Yeah. And some things are not gonna work out, and some things are gonna work out, ~and,~ and that's ~kind of ~okay. ~Um, ~and in the, in, in your people space and in your operation space, what are some of those areas that you're ~kind of like, "Hmm, ~these are the things that are taking up more time than we need to, and maybe these are the areas that we need to look at next when we think about solving with AI?"
Yeah. ~I mean, ~really, and if I go, look at both internal and external. So internally for me, it's like anything where people are asking repetitive questions to the same things, like basic LLM stuff that we can solve. So people questions, benefits [00:21:00] questions. ~Um, ~again, ~we're not, ~we're not like we're in like three different countries.
We're not huge global presence, so we have to worry about that complexity of questions. But even those things that can save someone, ~you know, ~a couple hours a week, that would be pretty easy for us ~to, ~to flip on. So ~those are the, ~those are the quick wins. ~Um, ~and then when I think externally facing, what we're trying to build a lot of is how do we have...
We have all this information. So to give you some context, we work with ~like ~20,000 e-commerce merchants. Yeah. So we have all this data, more data than anyone else in our space, on how they act, how subscribers work, ~um,~ and how do we go and use that Both internally and externally. So internally, it's how do we arm our CSMs with the best practices, with the data around what the best companies are doing so they can go and help our merchants apply those playbooks?
~Mm-hmm. ~How do we do that both through human touch and through the product? And same thing- Yeah ... with externally, like how do we go and give that data to our merchants for them to understand, "Hey, ~you know, ~here's where you sit, here's where you could be." A lot we're doing right now, AI [00:22:00] recommendations is, "Hey, if you tweak this one thing, we think this could create these results for you.
We notice you don't have this feature on. You should go turn that on. It's gonna help your failed payment recovery rate." So being able to use our data, again, data context to help our merchants at the end of the day ~is, ~is number one, and a lot of that is also like how do we help ourselves ~to, ~to then help them, if that makes sense.
Yeah. Yeah. And as a COO, how are you using Claude, and where are you on that journey personally? Just trying to token max every night, ~you know? ~Yes. Yeah, ~uh,~ pretty simple stuff for me. I started out, ~and,~ and my CEO was really good. He came and he pulled us all into a room and said, "Hey, I want you guys to all go build this website, ~you know, ~figure out how terminals work," and really, ~like,~ got us into the basics first.
~Uh, ~on a daily basis, I have ~like ~a pipeline review that I look at. I have a risk review, ~um,~ based on, ~you know, ~we're looking at Gong calls, we're looking at tickets. Who are folks that I probably need to re-reach out to, ~um,~ make sure that they're doing okay? How do I help this customer be more successful?[00:23:00]
So those two I get daily looking at deals ~and, ~and also current merchants. And then just, ~you know, ~essentially AI chief of staff type stuff, emails, drafting things for me, prob-probably what everyone uses it for. ~Um, ~I'm still trying to figure out, ~uh,~ too, like where I can use it better and where is it, ~like,~ just bullshit stuff that I've built that I maybe use once or twice-
and what's the stuff I'm using daily, is like a balance I'm trying to figure out. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it-- Experimentation, right? Going back to our point around it's gonna be a little bit messy. Not everything is gonna work, but there's gonna be some nuggets in there which is gonna continue to deliver value, and- Yeah
and that's great to see. And, ~uh,~ for folks who are starting to dip their toes, ~uh,~ into Claude, ~um,~ or who might be a little bit further ahead, ~um,~ is there any advice that you might give them, ~uh,~ on how to get into this? No, I think, ~uh,~ I think you just have to start playing around. I think, ~um,~ once I really got into it, like you find it quite addicting.
It's actually terrifying, right? ~How much, ~how much you could-- time and money you can spend on this stuff. ~Um, ~and I think always just start out with ~like, ~instead of just like [00:24:00] start going in there ~and, ~and prompting and things like that, figure out first and document like what are some things you actually want to work on?
~What, ~what is... Where do you spend time? And figuring all that out, and again, building that context for the system to actually be helpful, ~um,~ was I jumped the other way. I was like, "Build this thing for me." And like it was cool, but I didn't-- And I'm like, ~"Well,~ this doesn't really help me. I just thought it would be a cool idea."
So zooming out, out, doing some of the boring stuff first- Yeah ... which is where am I spending time doing tasks I can automate, where it's something that can help my team scale or move more efficiently, and really documenting out what those steps and processes are, and then it makes it that much easier to use.
Nice. Yes. So ~what, ~what I'm hearing is, while it's been exciting to dive right in, and it's probably shown you the art of the possible so that you can then go and curate that kind of work list that you would wanna automate, ~um,~ it sounds like the biggest value for you has been actually looking at the work that is taking place, almost like what is the workflow.
And then once you know a little bit about what Claude and some of [00:25:00] the other tools can do, then it's gonna become way easier to then start to pick ~those, ~those pieces a-apart so ~what you, ~what you can automate. Yeah. That's the hope. Yeah. We'll see. Hopefully, I get better with it. But yeah, ~that's,~ that's what I'm trying to do.
Love it. ~What's the, ~what's the vision in a couple of years? How are you seeing people at Recharge, let's say, use AI? ~Uh, ~and that's a big, lofty question, I know. Yeah, I have no idea. Any-anyone that says they know the two-year future look of AI ~is, ~is full of it. ~Um, ~I think- Good. Yeah. I think for me, though, it's, ~uh, I mean, ~again, through that same lens is like how are we better serving our merchants and spending less time doing stuff that doesn't matter, ~um, you know, ~whether it's logging Salesforce information and tickets.
~Hmm. ~How are we actually using the data w- and context we have to make their businesses successful? So that's like the theme of how we're looking at AI and how do we use it. ~Um, ~what's that gonna look like in two years? Dude, ~I have, ~I have no idea. Probably- ... maybe just robots doing this conversation. You and I won't even be here for- Yeah, exactly
something like that to happen. ~Your, ~your honesty ~is, ~is refreshing. ~Um- ... I, ~I love it a lot. ~Uh, well, ~[00:26:00] Michael, thank you so much, ~uh, for, ~for today. Great spending time with you. ~Um, ~and thanks for taking us through ~those, ~those examples that, that you talked about earlier on. ~Um, ~where can people find you if they wanted to, ~uh,~ learn more about how you're using Claude?
Yeah. Either in the streets of Salt Lake City or on LinkedIn. Yeah, hit me up for sure. Amazing. Yeah. Amazing. We will share your, ~uh,~ your profile, ~uh, i-in the, ~in the show notes. But- Nice ... Michael, thanks again. ~And, ~and for everybody else, thanks for listening. See you on the next one. ~そう。~