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The Healthy Wealth Experience - Where Financial Success Meets Personal Wellbeing
Host Chris Hall combines 30+ years in finance with wellness expertise to help entrepreneurs and professionals build wealth without sacrificing their health. From investment strategies to money management, we offer advice to make financial success more sustainable.
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Chris Hall (00:49)
Hello and welcome to the Healthy Wealth Experience. I'm your host, Chris Hall, and I am very excited today to have my guest with me, Hugh Massey. He has done a ton of research on DNA assessments, linking genetics to financial decision making. So without further ado, thank you so much for being here, Hugh.
Hugh Massie (01:06)
Yeah, it's great to be with you, Chris, and look forward to the conversation.
Chris Hall (01:10)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Off the air, I was saying, when I had read about Hugh and what he's working on, it really just fits perfectly with healthy wealth, the healthy wealth experience. you cannot truly be wealthy unless you also are healthy. And I think this goes into a lot of that. We're to talk a lot about that. But let's first start with the beginning, as always. How did you get to this spot? You know?
Where'd you go to school? What interests you in this to where you would further dive into this?
Hugh Massie (01:36)
So you can tell from my accent, Chris, I'm not from Atlanta, Georgia, where I currently live. I'm from much deeper south, Sydney, Australia. And so that's where I was educated and the first part of my career started. So I did my education at an all boys boarding school in Sydney. Well, that was a lot of the education. was eight years of my 12 years at school.
Chris Hall (01:47)
nice.
Yeah.
Hugh Massie (02:01)
then university
in Sydney doing economics and accountancy. And I finished with all of that and then went in to work at Arthur Anderson predominantly as a tax specialist for most of my career. And I was lucky to have a few years of my experience living in Singapore and Thailand. So I got pretty diverse life and business experience.
And I think in that journey of being a tax specialist where I had to often provide complex advice to companies and to wealthy individuals, families as well, that I had to be able to customise, if I was going to be successful with it, I had to be able to customise the advice provided. So the person asking me the question,
and wanting the advice may not be someone that wanted to read a lot of details. So I sort of learned to figure out that with different people, for some people it was one page and a diagram and this is the answer. And for other people needed to see 100 pages. But of course, to get paid the exorbitant fees that our firm charged, you needed to be able to justify it. And so
I learned to structure how the advice was provided. And I think that was something that I was intuitively doing and not highly aware that I was doing that as I am more aware of it today. And when I finished with Arthur Anderson decided I'd had enough of corporate life and wanted to be doing something for myself, I went and set up a wealth management firm.
with the intention of providing a hyper-personalised experience. And again, I didn't know totally how that was going to pan out in terms of what the personalised experience process would be, other than I'm going to treat people as uniquely as I can, and that this can't be a one-size-fits-all service.
Chris Hall (03:45)
Thank
Thank you.
and I'm just going to leave it at that.
Hugh Massie (04:04)
A few years into the business, a friend of mine asked, what are you really passionate about? And I said, I want to help people all over the world become financially self-empowered. And that was a pretty life-changing moment in a lot of ways, because I hadn't thought of.
saying that my life purpose was that or my passions at a deep level was that. But I knew enough that if I had said that, I need to go and do something with it. And so I went and took a hard look at myself from an internal perspective. I looked in my day journal that I'd been writing for a few years and there, lo and behold, I'd been writing around about behavior. so I knew that to help people become financially
financially self-empowered. Chris, was not financial literacy in the normal way of teaching people stocks and bonds and compound interest and whatnot. It was teaching them about themselves and that every person had a financial personality and that I realised this could be measured.
And then I have a chance meeting with a psychologist and she says, look, this is what you're talking about. Is it people have got a natural hardwired behaviour that's shaped from very early in life. And I could help you measure that because that's really what I wanted to do. And that's the basis of helping people with financial self-empowerment. Wrapped up in their
Chris Hall (05:15)
Okay.
Hugh Massie (05:21)
as well as I if I knew who the person was through what we would call today psychometric measurement, I could put a tailor made suit on every client that was really the so that was one side of it. So I was meeting my hyper personalization objective now, because now is going to know the ins and outs of every person and what they would need have a much better discovery process.
Chris Hall (05:25)
Yes.
Hugh Massie (05:42)
but also be able to teach them what their wealth drivers would be, be what we would call the wealth mentor of the client, much better able to guide and coach them on the wealth journey by knowing who they are. And so that's sort of how I got to this place.
Chris Hall (06:01)
Yeah, that's it's some of the things you say What yeah No, was gonna say some of the things you're saying it's like we all know that like in it seems like in relationships There's like a spender and a saver There's very rare that you have two savers or two spin and if you have two spenders they usually They don't usually come see a financial advisor
Hugh Massie (06:03)
Very purpose driven, really? Very purpose driven? Yeah.
Yeah.
Chris Hall (06:22)
But you know, it's really interesting because I mean, all know what's that.
Hugh Massie (06:22)
Well, they've got no money left over to do it. They've
got no money left to come and see the advisor.
Chris Hall (06:27)
Exactly.
Exactly. That's why I say like, we know that from the 30,000 foot view, that there's a spender and a saver, but you you've actually dug down into like, you know, where we're at with it. How, how early in life do these, some of these, whatever you would call it nature versus nurture, how early in life do these kind of like set themselves in motion?
Hugh Massie (06:49)
Yeah, so that's a good question. And I'll be as specific as I can, that your hard wiring, which is what I'm seeking to measure the natural instinctive behaviour is 85 % formed or thereabouts by the time you're three years old. So the enduring traits
that we all have are largely set by the time you're three years old. Now, where do they come from? Probably between, you know, around 20 to 25 % of that is set at conception. That's the genes part. And then the rest of it comes from the life experiences and the environment that you're in between conception and about three years old.
Chris Hall (07:27)
Mmm.
Thank you.
Hugh Massie (07:38)
And so that the neural pathway being technical about it, the neural pathways in the brain are largely set by the time you're three years old. Now, there's quite a lot of other developments still goes on in cementing your emotions and
Chris Hall (07:38)
No.
Hugh Massie (07:55)
decision making zones and you know, more, I suppose if you call it brain development goes on right up through to the point that you're about 18 years old, then then it's fairly, you know, who you are is who you are. But that that doesn't mean something can't be changed. But but it's harder to it's harder to change what's been ingrained from earlier. And so this is where we sort of get this distinction between what's relatively automatic that happens in
Chris Hall (08:12)
Sure.
Hugh Massie (08:21)
you know, a nanosecond if you want to call it that as a reaction versus I will stop and pause or check myself before my wreck, wreck myself and take maybe seven seconds to make a decision, which is coming more from learning. And then my experience enough, okay, I've got a trigger to stop. And so so and think about it, then make a choice.
And so and it's not saying that all reactions are bad. A lot of them might be good. But but that so that but that's sort of the formation of the behaviour and now that's forming you as a person. And that's what we call that. So the zero to three is what we're sort of saying is your DNA behaviour, the very early life hardwired behaviour. That's how you shape that brings your life perspectives.
Chris Hall (08:47)
on it.
Hugh Massie (09:02)
But also that's where your money and your money perspectives tend to follow your life perspectives. Now, we can also have beliefs about money that come later on or get reshaped because of a life event that happens later. But a lot of this goes on very early. people like people that are spenders and savers from early in life, I look at my two children.
Chris Hall (09:11)
Thank you.
Hugh Massie (09:25)
one has been predominantly a saver all of her life and the other one, the younger one, and it's not a birth order thing, he's more of a if I've got money then what can I spend it on? And so spending will be
Chris Hall (09:25)
Yeah.
Great.
Hugh Massie (09:40)
something he does will be a challenge. But then it's how do you talk to him about spending plans or spending for life experiences rather than having a new pair of shoes like other kids in the class have got, right? They're the conversations, but you also want people to spend enough to have good life happiness too, just saving it all.
Chris Hall (09:52)
you
great.
Hugh Massie (10:01)
doesn't need to a quality of life either that can be stressful on its own right. But that's but I think Chris that's where it's coming from. So it's coming from very early in life, some genetics, but not the majority. It's the experiences that happen early in life and some of us have more that we're aware of have bigger life experiences between zero and three perhaps than than other people do.
and you start to see the impacts of that.
Chris Hall (10:27)
Yeah, no, I do want to point out ⁓ for the listening audience that Hugh Massey did quote Ice Cube in his interview. You said you had to check yourself before you wrecked yourself. I thought that was phenomenal. So, you know, do you know about the marshmallow study with Stanford? Are you aware of that?
Hugh Massie (10:44)
I've heard of it, but I've not studied it.
Chris Hall (10:48)
So basically in a nutshell, what they would do is they'd put these kids in a room with a plate and a marshmallow on it. And they would say, hey, listen, you can eat this now if you want to. It's not against the rules. But if you wait three minutes, I got to go out of the room and I'm going to be gone three minutes. And when I come back, it could be three minutes. It could be more than three minutes. I don't remember the time. But anyway, when I come back, if it's still here, I'll give you a second marshmallow and you can eat them both. And it was basically the study was on delayed gratification.
And what they found was that the kids who would wait for the second marshmallow were so much more likely to become good investors and good employees. Because they understood the idea of working towards something instead of just immediate gratification at an early age. almost makes me wonder, listening to what you're saying, if you could almost take your two-year-old and your one-year-old and
Hugh Massie (11:14)
Yeah.
Chris Hall (11:36)
and kind of like play the game with them over and over again. Like, well, do you want it now or do you want it later? To like almost sort of develop that DNA that might be in them. That's very interesting. Three years old, that's very interesting to me. ⁓
Hugh Massie (11:50)
I think
that if you take seven year olds, up to seven, Chris, I think you could do exercises like that to help with the shaping. As much as they're capable of understanding at that age.
Chris Hall (12:01)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that's great. Yeah. So, you know, it's obviously there's always a nature versus nurture debate. ⁓ What percentage of nature, in other words, what percentage of the DNA do you think is responsible for people's financial decisions as opposed to nurture?
Hugh Massie (12:12)
Yeah.
If I take that nature is zero to three years old, because the person really doesn't have a lot of control over how they have developed or up to seven years old, then I would say it's 95%.
nature. And that's because under pressure, it takes over, it is the core of who the person is. Now, will that be the same for everyone? Maybe not, but but
I think it is predominantly that and I think if you read the work of Daniel Kahneman, you know, who's now since passed away, he would say that in the book, Thinking Fast and Slow. And that's where I got to before he did that book or, you know, before, before, you know, he got his Nobel Prize. That was really what I was seeing with the clients that I had.
in Australia in the wealth management business. I was watching this going on and that's what got me to want to be able to measure it.
Chris Hall (13:17)
What inspired you to move from accounting with a wealth management focus to wealth management as the focus? inspired you to make that? I mean, it's a fairly lateral move, but in the same respect, it's usually two different kinds of people that will manage that.
Hugh Massie (13:31)
So I was in accountancy and a tax specialist. And so there is a side of wealth management where taxation, I suppose, is relevant. And really, think it was, I think there's twofold move is twofold reason. I felt very comfortable.
being an advisor to people, being quite a good strategic thinker covering a range of issues. And at the time that I left Arthur Anderson, I happened to also do an MBA. I did my CFP or equivalent of, you know, it was a diploma in financial planning, but it was recognised essentially as a CFP. I did all of those things pretty much on leaving Arthur Anderson while I was starting the business. And
I have been and I wasn't even I was young, I was investing in things.
by myself or for or with my family, probably from the age of pretty actively from the age of 20 years old. So a lot of stuff has been going on on the side and and that and so I could bring some of that experience to the table now at 30 years old, how much do experience do you really have? But I had to I had to use the tax experience a fair bit.
Chris Hall (14:26)
Mm.
Hugh Massie (14:41)
And I think that's where that when I got to the place of coming up with the behavioral ideas, I definitely saw myself more as a wealth mentor to people rather than an investor. I was not attracted to the idea of people coming to me and saying, well, Hugh, you know, I'm only worried about investment returns. And I'm thinking, well, that's how you measure yourself. Then this isn't very good. And
Chris Hall (15:05)
Right.
Hugh Massie (15:06)
I wasn't
in love with the investment management process, actually. And so that's started to make it pretty easy to go down much more of a behavioral path. But I think I've got it to the wealth management because I liked advising people, I had the tax skills, but I was also doing deals, and had been doing deals. So I had pretty broad knowledge, really. Probably got a lot broader knowledge today.
Chris Hall (15:26)
Thank you.
Hugh Massie (15:27)
than I had then, of course, but we're talking 25 years and 30 years down the track. But if that gives you the idea, Chris, of that transition.
Chris Hall (15:34)
Thank you.
Yeah, no, I like that a lot. And it's, it's very interesting to me that you moved from, you know, accountancy to wealth management. And with a background in accountancy economics, that you didn't become a spreadsheet guy, you didn't become like the guy who checks all the PE ratios and forward thinking everything. And, you know, like that would have been like a really easy shift for you to just become more of a technical analyst when it comes to like investing.
And so it's kind of cool that you like you're like, Nope, that's not what I want to do at all. I want to talk to people. I think that's such a cool move. you know, congratulations on like, kind of knowing that itself, you know what I mean?
Hugh Massie (16:15)
Yeah, I could do that work, but it was eight out of 10. Right? It's like I could do the investment work. It's eight out of 10. And I knew I wasn't in love with it. And it was like tax in a way I was eight out of in this grand scheme of it. I was pretty good at it. But I would say in the grand scheme, I was eight out of 10. And it's up to all of us to find out 10 out of 10.
Chris Hall (16:19)
Yeah, right.
you know.
So, yeah, I've heard you mentioned that before, the 10 out of 10 thing, and I think it's cool. Like, where did you come up with the concept? And then how do you implement that into your life and try to help other people's implement it into theirs?
Hugh Massie (16:47)
So I've heard, suppose I've been a good learner. I've been in around a lot of entrepreneurs from being in entrepreneurs organization for 25 years or so. So I've listened to people talking about that. you read it, I suppose you read some of it in books, others gave me that guidance as well.
you know, in coaching and informal coaching, I think at the end of the day, the 10 out of 10 comes out from the belief that there is one thing in the world that you can do that's probably better than everybody else. And it's bit like being an Olympian. You you learn early in life, perhaps that you can be a really good sprinter or you're good at wrestling or whatever it is.
and you want to become the world champion in it. think I think there's something out there for all of us. Watching the Olympic Games inspired me in Sydney in 2000. It somewhat inspired me to that thinking, yeah, there's something that I can be great at, but I just got to find it. And for some of us, because we're eight out 10 at some quite a number of things. It's hard to find that at times as opposed to.
Chris Hall (17:34)
All right.
Hugh Massie (17:53)
There's just for others, it's just one thing and by necessity, they get there really quick. but but but you've got to be you've got to have this you've got to have the ⁓ the talents. So the raw talent, that's the natural DNA. And you've got to have the passion for something.
Chris Hall (18:06)
Thank
Hugh Massie (18:07)
And when you can put those two together, where this is where that one thing, your unique gift or unique ability as said by Dan Sullivan, strategic coach, is that's where you're going to, and I haven't done strategic coach, but I know he talks about that. That's where you're going to find the 10 out of 10.
Chris Hall (18:28)
Right. No, I love that. I think like we live in a day and age where that's never become more easy to do to you know what mean? To find some niche and and and make a living out of it. I had a guest on the show, friend of mine, ⁓ Coach Kyle Stelter, and he literally created a business out of thin air coaching kids how and how the technique, the technical side of long snapping.
And he has guys in the NFL and college and high school. And he is like absolutely he was like a PE teacher. But then he but but he was a good long snapper. And so he took this passion for long snapping and turned it into a business. I mean, he hasn't been teaching for several years because this is his full time business. I just think we live in a time where if you can find something you're passionate about, you can actually achieve a 10 out of 10 and and make money at it. I do believe like, you know, maybe kind of
when I was growing up, you know, there wasn't access to the tools that there are now. So I think that you had to be, you had to kind of almost go work for a corporation, you had to almost go work for an Arthur Anderson, or in my case, Pfizer pharmaceuticals to achieve success. And then, you know, and then you'd have, like you said, you had a side hustle, you were working on things on the side, I was the same way, you know what I mean? But I think like nowadays, I don't even think you have to have like,
a W2 job, think you can be a side hustle could be your main hustle, which is pretty cool that we live there.
Hugh Massie (19:49)
But I think Chris, think also times have changed. think that when, certainly when I grew up and you did, and you know, we don't need to completely disclose our age or seniority there, but because I still think I'm a young puppy, you know, only halfway through the journey. But I think that when I was finishing, you know, at university, finishing university, the idea was
Chris Hall (20:00)
I like it.
I'm happy to answer any questions you Bye. ⁓
Hugh Massie (20:14)
You go and work in a large organization, you
get the meal ticket, you learn that the idea of coming an entrepreneur straight out of university was not even a concept. wasn't discussed.
It was interesting, though, that when I did leave, Arthur Anderson, my mother said to me, I think you might be you might have done this a few years too late. You probably should have tried this earlier. So like so so that was interesting that in a way I was encouraged to work in a big organization, but maybe I could have jumped out earlier. But, you know, is what it is. But I think there's conditioning there was conditioning. And today, you know, what you're alluding to is
Chris Hall (20:39)
shit.
Peace.
Hugh Massie (20:54)
going to college and paying massive school fees or college fees, particularly in America, when there's no guarantee of getting any job, it's going to make people think twice and that employers are going to want you to have skills and be productive out the gate. ⁓ And so we are a different world. think that so entrepreneurship is going to be something that
Chris Hall (20:59)
Wait.
Yeah.
Hugh Massie (21:19)
kids are going to have to do in some way, even if it's just starting off with gigs to make ends meet. But this is where wealth creation comes from. think that, you and this is something that, you know, you and the more in the financial advice side of things than I am these days, but that you create wealth from the use of your talents, if you want to call it that.
Chris Hall (21:25)
Yeah. Yeah.
that we can do.
Hugh Massie (21:45)
and skills not necessarily from investing and this that is where your talents and skills are and and and I think that's a part that's sort of forgotten in the overall scheme of of wealth creation.
Chris Hall (21:57)
Yeah. Yeah. Now you talk a lot about DNA and I just want to make sure I'm clear on this. Like there's no specific like we don't know of a particular kind of DNA that some people have and some people don't when it comes to wealth. Is that is that true or is there is there direct links to like hey if you have this genetic factor you're more likely to be you know successful?
Hugh Massie (22:20)
Yeah, I think we haven't gone to that point of view that there is a gene that's, you know, number or coded XYZ1234 that if you've got that in spades, you know, that that's a strong gene that you're going to make more money than somebody else.
Chris Hall (22:27)
Yeah.
Thank you.
Hugh Massie (22:40)
No, I don't think so. I do go back to some people are wired to be a particular way in terms of being more goal driven, creative, risk taking, their early life experience maybe allows those predispositions to strengthen and they go out there and do something with it.
Chris Hall (22:54)
Thank
Yeah, I totally believe that once they you we have never we haven't fully mapped the human genome and I fully believe that when they do get it out there there's going to be genetics that you know, people have like just an abundance of like, hey, I'm gonna be wealthy and like from a little time here a little kid. I mean, when I was a little kid, like, you know, where you do the memory game where you know, flip flip over card and then try to find the other one that matches and stuff like that. Like I
I mean, like at three years old, was wiping the floor with everybody on that thing. When by the time I was five years old, nobody wanted to play Monopoly with me. You know, by the time I was seven years old, nobody wanted to play Scrabble with me. Like I just, my brain just liked that stuff so much. And, and so, and again, you always want to do things that you're good at. Right? So like same thing, if you're a good, if you're a basketball player, when you were a kid and you know, you were shooting baskets and you had a good shot and people said, man, you can really shoot the ball. Like, of course you're going to do that more because you like doing things that you're good at. So.
I might definitely feel like there's a proclivity for it.
Hugh Massie (23:53)
So I would...
There is a proclivity and I think that while we're exploring it, you know, that when I came up with with the behavioural ideas, you know, and realised that, okay, that people have this natural hardwired behaviour, it can be measured.
I bring in a psychologist, I actually hired her as well to help me work on this in the the wealth management business. And then the day comes, okay, what's what's my business and life going to be? And I can remember sitting down on the on the floor of my house in Sydney, and I had Carol there. And we were talking about it. And I had to, you know, I just said, Look, my
No one's going to understand this choice I'm about to make because it would be far easier at the time to have stayed with the wealth management business and built it up in Australia and been there. You know, my family and friends are there. That's where I come from. My identity is associated with all of that. But there's something I need to do. My childhood dreams were about having a global business.
Chris Hall (24:34)
Thank
Hugh Massie (24:51)
And you you go back to your natural proclivities or inclinations and what you were doing at three years old, was sitting on the floor playing with my Lego, figuring out, you know, how to build a business empire. It was just there. And I was always talking about it. And it wasn't because I think I was in love with money for the sake of making more money. It was because I was in love with the idea of business.
Chris Hall (25:04)
Thank
Yeah.
Hugh Massie (25:16)
and doing stuff. you know, today, I would say that's the same the more up to the day I die. I'm going to pursue human impact goals, but that happens to mean having a business. And that's it. And that's there, you know, wired into me from very early in life. And I knew from that I knew when I reflected on those dreams that
Chris Hall (25:28)
Thank you.
And we're finished.
Hugh Massie (25:36)
they're there and they're meant to be pursued.
And I think that's there for others. But here's the key point, you've got to have the mindset to want to push through on that. And it's easy not to have that.
Chris Hall (25:45)
Yeah, now so you do a lot of leadership coaching as well. Like you do that for like bigger companies, right? Like Pepsi and stuff like that.
Hugh Massie (25:53)
Yeah, we do it for for larger companies, but but frankly, it's for any company. And you know, I look at wealth managers are leaders of their clients. and fathers are leaders in their families. I'm not saying the leader either, because mothers are too. But be careful, be careful of that. But but you know, I think that it's it's about
Chris Hall (26:12)
Amen.
Hugh Massie (26:20)
It's about training everybody to be leaders, not just, you know, a government, person that's running the military or IBM or Intel. That is a part. But there's a lot more leaders out there than that. And in a way, we can all think of ourselves as leaders if we want to think of ourselves that way. That's a mind shift.
Chris Hall (26:31)
Thank
Right.
Hugh Massie (26:42)
And that's really what I am part of. we have structured programs for large companies and medium and smaller companies. But I think part of it to me is how do we all shape up as leaders and behave better as leaders?
Chris Hall (26:56)
And so the majority of your business at this point is training financial advisors on, you know, how to recognize.
Hugh Massie (27:03)
Yeah, half the businesses with financial advisors, financial services firms talking about the financial type behaviors that we were alluding to at the start, know, people's predispositions to saving, spending, goal setting, taking risks.
how do you customize the communication, you know, from the advisor to the client. So that would be half navigating family dynamics, that would be half. And the other half is working with with teams, organisations that might be outside financial services. But I think a point that we bring out a lot now, Chris, is that the financial behaviour
of a leader will be influencing a lot of his or her decisions.
Chris Hall (27:41)
Yeah.
Hugh Massie (27:43)
How they think about
money when they're making key leadership decisions is a big issue and in my mind is driving company profitability and it's not just in my mind actually research shows it. So yeah, it was in my mind because I didn't have proof, ultimate proof until we actually did research study of all the S &P 500 companies and you could see it.
in the data, in the linkage between financial behaviours of the leaders and the accounts.
Chris Hall (28:11)
So you're saying like ⁓ in their personal life how they manage their finances personally also reflects how they'll be as a manager for the company? Is that what I'm am I hearing that correctly?
Hugh Massie (28:20)
So once we know someone's,
let's say that once we know someone's DNA, you know, DNA style and their various factors, sub-factors, who they are essentially, that approach to money will show up personally and it will show up in the company and how they lead a company. If they are, if they are a spender at the personal level, there will be those attitudes at the corporate level as well.
Chris Hall (28:35)
It's there.
Hugh Massie (28:43)
more than even though there's budgets, mean budgets are what you make budgets to be. That will be there.
Chris Hall (28:43)
That makes perfect sense.
Yeah, no, I think that's really smart. I think that's exactly how it is too. If you see somebody who's just pouring money into R &D, then their personal life, probably have all the newest Apple stuff too. You know what mean? They probably just, that's just how they're built. Smart.
Hugh Massie (29:04)
Yep, that's how they're built.
That's how it shows up. they're tight with money personally, they're probably tight in the company. So the physical control part's very strong.
Chris Hall (29:12)
No.
I noticed we just briefly touched on it, and I'd like to, because I do think it has the heart of what we're trying to do here at the Healthy Wealth Experience, which is the stress of finances on your health. Could you speak a little bit to that?
Hugh Massie (29:30)
Well, you know, going back to my original story there, it was in 2001 when I really had all my, know, my AHA experiences and was connecting behaviour to and money together.
I knew that money caused stress for a lot of people, which is also what kept them would push them back to their hardwired behaviour, that you just go to your instinctive zone. But you know, as I've done more research on this over the last 20 years, and particularly in the last few years, money absolutely causes stress for people. There's plenty of research, including from the American Psychological Association and other places around the world.
know, roughly 75 % of the people around the world are saying their stress comes from money. And well, what is money? Money is a currency. Money is what you believe it to be and money is an energy force that's over you 24 by seven. So some of that stress for people is coming from just outright not having enough. But there's a lot of stress coming from people who actually have money to
Chris Hall (30:30)
Great. Right.
Hugh Massie (30:31)
And you know, what
do I do with it? How do I provide for my kids? They've got relationships being impacted by it. You know, business, personal community. Money is there the whole time. And it is it is a major stress factor. And so what is so then we look at health. What causes health issues?
Stress, stress accelerates aging. Stress gets picked up, know, by you want to get sort of, you know, by the lower part of your body, particularly, right in your guts. And, you know, we can we can get to the science of which parts but but money is there.
Chris Hall (30:56)
All right.
Thanks.
Hugh Massie (31:11)
impacting you in that way all the time. So if we want to solve the the ageing problem, yes, we can all take better supplements and go for walks and things. But we've also got to solve the stress part. And that's why, you know, the mental health discussions are a bigger part today. And so, you know, I've been part of think tanks, if you want to call it that about living longer, and I've set a goal to lift 120. But
Chris Hall (31:16)
Thank you.
Hugh Massie (31:36)
that that that does revolve around doing you know, better exercise and managing that properly. Eating, ⁓ drinking, you know, managing all of those things. But you've also got to manage stress in your mindset.
Chris Hall (31:43)
and I'll see you guys
Right, right. Well, how do you feel like ⁓ what is a good tool for someone to manage financial stress? Obviously, you know, they're going to be like, you know, I just need more money. But like, how you observe your situation is important. And so what do you recommend for people who are currently like in financial stress?
Hugh Massie (32:11)
Well, it probably does depend on why you're in financial stress. I think that's probably that that's the first thing because there are people there that are below the poverty line. And and and and that's a that's a different stress because they've got to outright just earn enough income. But
Chris Hall (32:23)
Sure.
Hugh Massie (32:31)
Some of, they can still alleviate stress by having a different mindset about money. And I think that there for others that who have got enough money, let's say they're over the 125,000 sort of minimum level to be happy type number in the United States. It's then about mindset. You know, it's not, I think one tool is not comparing yourself to some other person.
Chris Hall (32:35)
you
Thank you.
Hugh Massie (32:56)
I think the mental comparisons
that go on is a problem. know, entitlements is a problem. I think it's about, you know, if you reduce it down, whether you've got money or not got money, it's about what can you do that's making a positive contribution and not worry about what other people have.
Chris Hall (33:15)
I think that's such a
hot take on that is like I think that the enemy there is almost always going to be comparison. I feel like if you are making $180,000 a year but you're concerned about the person who does exactly what you do across town who makes $300, well then that causes financial stress. It's not necessary. your $180,000 is successful. It just depends on
what you're measuring your success against. And, and so if you're measuring against other people, I think that's where there's a lot of problems. think that was a really good, that was a really good insight to that. think that, you know, trying to avoid comparison is probably the number one thing you can do to get away from financial stress.
Hugh Massie (33:55)
Yeah, I think that's just generally, you know, and there'll be some, I think that's a sort general proposition across the board. There will be some that.
people because of the way they're wired, who are more interested in what other people are doing, they're just interested in people. And so their image is important, their identity is important. And that's going to be something that they do. And there'll be others that can find it easier in a way to stay in their own lane and not worry about it. But they've got different money issues.
Chris Hall (34:12)
you
Sure, sure. Right. So now, I love the idea of my practice. What I'm trying to do is not only take care of people in their current state, but I'm trying to build generational wealth. I know that's a term that gets thrown around a lot. It's a very good buzzword. But really, truly, I think that people can pile up money and then they can get to their retirement age and then they can spend that money. And there's nothing wrong with that. Absolutely, if you want to do that, go ahead.
I'm definitely interested in more of the pile up money, spend part of it, keep that money piling, and then get it to the kids below you, you know what mean? And then they do the same thing. You teach them good habits, you don't just teach them, you know, hey, here's a bunch of fish. You say, here's how I do it. You know, trying to build that generational wealth. I enjoy that a lot. You know, do you feel like there's a part in a family's life where they can say, hey, listen, I want people to take this assessment. I want to know.
as a parent what I'm dealing with with the kids that I'm raising or is it mostly just for adults at this point?
Hugh Massie (35:25)
No,
the most successful formula would be involving the children as well. And that, you my kids took the assessment at about age 10 years old and it's been pretty accurate. I think that we validated it with kids age 15 and up.
Chris Hall (35:30)
Okay, good good
Great.
Hugh Massie (35:44)
people 15 and upwards just because they're a little bit more emotionally centred by you know 15, 16 years old.
And we got we're able to do that because of the design of the questionnaire in terms of widgets asking people to choose most and least like between a single word, a kid at 10, you know, 10 is more, certainly at 15 and 16 can choose between aspiring detailed and patient, for example, it's not complex life sentences where you got to interpret it, be educated and probably experience that situation to rank it, we got none of that in, in what we do. So it's pretty simple.
non situational assessment, if you can, if you can read a little bit, you can answer it. So I would encourage families, everybody in the family to do it. And then you understand the differences. And then issues don't get built up so much as well. And because I think sometimes people are playing mind games in the family. Well, you know, dad said this to me, and I've got an entitlement to this and mom saying that or
Chris Hall (36:23)
What? What I mean by that is straight.
Hugh Massie (36:42)
kids got a better relationship with one parent and the other, I think that the more you can open out the communication earlier, you can manage the differences that are inherently there in the family. And I think probably you've seen it sometimes, it's not going to involve equal amounts of money to each kid, because one might need it for some reason more. I think you've got to look at special needs.
Chris Hall (36:46)
Thank you.
See you.
Hugh Massie (37:05)
very carefully, but each kid to love them equally might need to be treated differently. One might need to be on a different education path than another kid. So, yeah, they're all philosophies for the family. How the family wants to give away some money is important. What's the family going to spend money on?
Chris Hall (37:10)
Thank
Thank you.
Hugh Massie (37:24)
life experiences and vacations, you know, every everyone's different when it gets down to their values and their belief systems around that. So it's not for us to judge. I think but it is up to us to them manage it and come up with some, you know, the behavioral dynamics and the financial dynamics to provide those inputs. But if we know that the differences in the family
Chris Hall (37:33)
Thank you.
Hugh Massie (37:45)
we can work on that. And it might be, as we've alluded to today, there's one kid or one parent that's a big spender that needs to be managed in some way. So I think the more that's known, the easier it is to manage those family dynamics.
Chris Hall (37:59)
Yeah, no, I like that's Like so with my kids I've always told them as they're growing up like if you have something that you want to pursue like, you know for vocation or you know things like that like I will support you in it so like like for my son he wants to you know play in the NFL someday and so, you know, we've been doing lessons for long snapping and Going to camps and like he's currently in the recruiting system
And so that causes us to do a lot of travel, which is expensive, but I told him I'd support him in his dream. And then with my daughter, she sort of stopped going to college. Like, I don't really want to do this anymore. I want to take a gap year, which typically speaking, we take a gap year. You're usually kind of done. And then for her, but she's an extremely talented artist, and she wants to pursue tattooing.
So we took the, like we had a little home gym that wasn't really getting much use anyway. unfortunately, because I mean, if I do work out, usually go for a walk or I'll go to the local gym. But, so we turned it into like a studio for her and now she's like, you know, thriving. And, and so like, you know, what you need to do to support people, like for my son is drastically more expensive than what I do for my daughter. but it's still, the measurement is still the same is that that's what they, that's what their dream is. And that's why I'm trying to help them with it.
So, and I don't really think about the money side of it until like we, until this conversation right here. Um, but yeah, I think that's really important to know where your kids are at and, again, know what they want for help. You know I mean? Instead of just trying to, you know, basically make them all go to college and make them all go do this and make them, you know what I mean? Like, you know, helping these kids find their 10 out of 10 and supporting them on it. I think that's excellent, um, advice. So now you've written a couple of books.
And then, but one of the ones you kind of briefly mentioned to me before the show and you talked just use the word on it, which was money energy. And it's an ebook that people can get for you. Tell me what you mean by money energy. I love the concept behind that.
Hugh Massie (39:54)
So think money, money energy is going back to our to in a way to our health and wealth conversation. So, you know, money, money energy, you know, there's there's dimensions of money, money is a currency. Money is behavioral, which comes from your life perspective. So your behavioral, you can call it your behavioral style directs you to spend and save, take risks, innovate.
Chris Hall (40:00)
That was it.
Hugh Massie (40:18)
be detailed or not detailed in relation to money. So in a way how you deal with it. And then the third part is money is an energy. It's in our thought patterns 24 by 7, whether we're aware of it or not, where money is at work. And so the phrase money never sleeps is not just about
Chris Hall (40:32)
Thank you.
Hugh Massie (40:40)
⁓ putting money in the bank and letting it compound. It's also about your thought patterns. Because if you go to bed with negative thoughts about money, or unresolved issues, you're going to wake up with them and go and probably manifest that outcome. And so taking it that money is in your heart, it's in every, you know, it's through your body, it's through your mind.
which then flows out into your decision making. I think it's incumbent on all of us to understand the role that money is playing in our lives, how we align ourselves, you know, to our talents, to our dreams, relationships, getting our life path right, is going to help us deal more positively.
Chris Hall (41:18)
Thank you.
Hugh Massie (41:20)
with the money energy, which is
then going to flow through, Chris, to, as we talked about, to your health. And, you know, again, I suppose if you live a nut, if you, I suppose you could say if you're unhealthy with money,
Chris Hall (41:27)
That's right.
Hugh Massie (41:36)
then you're probably going to spend more of it on the wrong things that then boomerangs on you in terms of your physical health and the mental health, it's all going to go down. Or if you just spend your whole life trying to make more and more money for the sake of it, you're very stressed in the process of it. What's what's that doing to your health?
Chris Hall (41:39)
you
Yeah.
Right? Right?
Hugh Massie (41:56)
And so it's in a way, I suppose what I'm talking about is that there is a balance there for all of us. That we can optimise the overall quality of our life, the longevity of our life, happiness is wrapped up in that and the success of it if we get everything in the right zone. I think that's what we should be working towards. And the life balance, if you want to call it that.
Chris Hall (42:15)
Yeah.
Hugh Massie (42:19)
is different for all of us, right? That zone of what is a balanced life is different for all of us.
Chris Hall (42:19)
⁓ Right.
It's funny, you mentioned the word balance and that's when you were speaking, that's exactly what kept coming to my mind is like we have this, it's almost become such a buzzword that I think it's lost its meaning, which is this like work life balance. I don't think there really is a work life balance. I think it's just balance. And if you have balance in your personal life, you can almost always achieve balance in your work life and vice versa, I think. I think if you're a balanced person in one, you're probably balanced in the other.
But like we
Hugh Massie (42:51)
Well, and you're a mentally
balanced person as well. think that's the part that's not forget, forget that bit as well. If you're mentally balanced, then that's going to help in balancing everything out.
Chris Hall (43:00)
Absolutely. That's well said. That's exactly what I was, that's exactly where I was headed with it. I just feel like a lot of our issues that we have are self-inflicted wounds. You know what mean? Like with our health, it's self-inflicted on how we eat and how we exercise. With our wealth, it's self-inflicted on how we spend and how we feel about money. You know, people when they grow up, how they feel about money has a really big factor in how they achieve success.
⁓ so I love the idea of balance. think that's really very, and I, you also mentioned the word manifest. And I do think that, you know, that's a word that people need to become more familiar with because how you, how you think about things is very productive to like how those things will actually turn out. And we can think about things in a super negative way. or we can think about things in a super positive way. That's up to us.
And so I love the idea of balance. I love the idea of energy. I think those are really good terms that should be used when we talk about health and wealth. I think that's excellent. So like what, you know, I appreciate your time and I to be respectful of it. I always try to keep people around an hour. Is there anything that we haven't talked about that you would like to talk more about?
Hugh Massie (44:05)
the only I think that we've covered the field pretty much I think one the thought maybe I leave behind for those listening and you know and for you Chris is that in the financial planning wealth management process I think we've got to get to a place and where we're more comfortable where we're far more comfortable to talk about
Chris Hall (44:09)
Mm-hmm.
Hugh Massie (44:25)
the broader set of issues facing our life and that, you know, for example, if you're 65 or 62 and you're planning on retiring, okay, well, having the conversation about your health, what might be coming at you potentially in the future? And what do you need to do to invest in staying healthy? I think it's an important part of the financial planning process.
Chris Hall (44:28)
See you.
Hugh Massie (44:54)
And it's a part that's easy to, to, to forget about or not to, not to address. And then suddenly the health shock comes in, you get a financial shock or maybe vice versa. But I think that the, the retirement planning needs to take into account health planning. And, and, you know, if you're retiring at 62 or 65,
you probably got a lot more years left in your life today with modern medicine than there was in the case in prior generations. That's only going to get more and more true as time goes along.
Chris Hall (45:18)
Thank you.
Yeah, and I so like, you know go into like the idea of retire 62 65, you know, those are numbers that you know, we've been using around for a really long time and my thought on that is like, you know If you look at people, you know, and you take two 70 year olds and put it side by side there one 70 year old
probably could work for another 15 years and be happy with it. And the other one there, they're kind of done. And I think that the biggest factor of that is usually their health, either mental or physical health and wellbeing. So I don't know that I ever really want to retire necessarily. I might transition my business. I might take on less clients. I might focus more on the podcast. Those are the kinds of things that I don't know. But I do know that
that 53 years old, like I don't plan on being done at 62. I plan on going to something that I can continue to do and keep active with, or at least be active in the community or something like that. I do have one question for you before we go. I just think like if you could analyze the sort of the DNA of any billionaire in the world, like an Elon Musk, Warren Buffett or Mark Cuban, who would you love to know more about their DNA?
their DNA wealth part.
Hugh Massie (46:43)
Well, out of those three, Mark Cuban.
Chris Hall (46:45)
yeah, that's awesome. That would have been my choice too, by the way.
Hugh Massie (46:47)
I've learned
more about the other two. haven't, I can, I could go and use our product on Mark Cuban, like we do digital scans of people. So in fact, I've done it. So that's sort of a system we built to get past the friction of someone having to complete the DNA behavior profile. We now can do it digitally. We've built metrics to do that.
Chris Hall (47:11)
Thanks.
Hugh Massie (47:12)
the technology. So I've done that on Elon Musk. I've studied Bill Gates and Warren Buffett for quite a long time. Mark Cuban is the more interesting one. I haven't studied in that way.
Chris Hall (47:26)
Interesting, I love that. Do you have any insights
on like an Elon Musk or a Bill Gates that you would want to share with people?
Hugh Massie (47:33)
Well, you know, they're more driven people, know, I think certainly, you know, Elon being, you know, much more of, if you want to call it authoritarian, influencer type player, extremely creative, there's no doubt about that. And, you know,
Chris Hall (47:50)
Yeah, true.
Hugh Massie (47:52)
enormous talents
that just need to keep being channeled to the right things for deployment into big businesses. think Bill Gates would have had some of those same traits, but he's channeling it more these days to his philanthropic missions.
Chris Hall (48:09)
Right.
That's true. Yeah.
Hugh Massie (48:10)
But it's
not that he's not doing anything either. mean, you know, he's probably the biggest landowner in the United States. He's channeled himself into a whole lot of areas, but he's probably not innovating in the same way that he did, whereas Musk is still in the innovation phases.
Chris Hall (48:18)
All right.
Right, right. I agree. They're just the different stages of their lives. Yeah. So with Mark Cuban, let's just put this out there on the air since this has many channels that's going on is that, know, Mark, if you're out there and you're listening, we would love to do a DNA scan on you for your behavior on wealth and financial decision making. So tag Mark in the comments, please.
Q, it's excellent having you on the show. ⁓ I do feel like this is like kindred spirit stuff. We both feel very strongly that health and wealth are intertwined. And I just think that how you feel about those things is also intertwined. Now, where can we get a hold of you for, you know, for your, the DNA assessments and things like that? Where can we go to find you?
Hugh Massie (49:09)
Yeah, the best place to come and find me is at DNAbehaviour.com. That's our website.
all the materials, thinking, booklets, ebooks, assessments, everything can be found there. Plenty about me if you want to learn more about you is there, including my profile is is there. So I'm an open book on all of that. And, you know, if you want to email anyone wants to email me just go just email me at DNA care at DNA behaviour.com and I'll get back to you.
Chris Hall (49:37)
love that. Thank you for telling us about that. So I will definitely put those in the show notes everybody. So you guys can click on the links. And then he also mentioned a couple of books, ⁓ Thinking Fast and Slow. ⁓
Hugh Massie (49:51)
Yeah, by Daniel Carter. think
if you want to understand behaviour, I think that's a good book to understand the hardwired behaviour, the types of behavioural biases that you might have.
Chris Hall (49:55)
Mm-hmm.
they can get access to your books through your website as well though, right?
Hugh Massie (50:03)
Through the website or at Amazon, either place is fine.
Chris Hall (50:06)
Okay, but we'll link
to those as well then. We'll link to those books as well. And so just if you guys have any more questions, please reach out to Hugh, leave comments and then show notes. And we'll be happy to answer them. I'm very active with the comments when people take their time out of their day to say something, I usually try my best to be thoughtful on the way back. And you guys know the drill. This is an algorithm. You know, our success is based on how much you like this. So
liking, commenting, sharing, subscribing, all of those fun things that people talk about all the time. That helps us expand our reach and get more people out there. And along those same lines, I always ask people in the comments, if you have something or someone specifically that you would love to hear more from, let us know. We would love to try to get them on the show. We are here for you guys. So if this is entertaining to you, that's the goal. If it's informative for you, that's the goal.
And if you find something that's more entertaining, more informative, let us know and we'll try to get them on the show. So with that being said, thank you so much, Hugh. I just got a ton of value out this. I hope other people did as well. I know they did. And just once again, thank you for being on the show.
Hugh Massie (51:09)
Pleasure, Chris.
Chris Hall (51:10)
All right, well have a good day and everybody have a good day.