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The official podcast from the team at BookFunnel, hosted by Jack Shilkaitis, Kelli Tanzi, and Emma Alisyn, featuring guest interviews, self-publishing industry discussions, and tips for using BookFunnel to build an author business.
0:00: I literally cried every day for six months after I left my day job, and it wasn't sadness, it was joy.
0:06: I was literally so full of joy, it leaked from my eyeballs, and I like, it was just, it was wonderful.
0:13: I remember that first week, I just wandered around my house like a lost.
0:17: Like, why am I not being told what to do?
0:19: Like, can I go to the post office?
0:21: It's, it's 11 o'clock.
0:22: It's not my lunch break.
0:23: Like, you know, it's wild.
0:25: Hey, folks.
0:26: Welcome to Book Funnel podcast, where indie authors get real-world advice on writing, publishing, and growing a career on their own terms.
0:34: Whether you're just starting out or you're deep into your author journey, we're here to help you build your readership, boost your book sales, and connect with your audience.
0:42: Each episode, we aim to bring you insights from authors, experts and industry insiders who have been there, done that, and then some.
0:49: My name is Jack.
0:50: I am our lead author support specialist here at Book Funnel.
0:54: And I am joined today as always by my co-hosts, Kelly Tanzy.
0:58: And Emma Allison, and our guest for this episode of the Book Funnel podcast, an author of Saffic romanticy writing under Ruby Rowe, but also a CEO and entrepreneur, Sasha Black.
1:10: Sasha, hello.
1:11: Thank you for having me.
1:12: Welcome to the Book Funnel podcast.
1:15: Really excited to have you here.
1:17: We were just talking before how we've actually wanted to have you on the podcast for some time now and it finally worked.
1:23: I know.
1:24: Thanks.
1:25: We met up at Author Nation just like a week ago, like literally a week ago, and we made it happen.
1:32: We got it to click, even with the time zone difference.
1:34: So I, I wanna thank you for maybe jumping through some hoops to be here with us today.
1:39: We, it's gonna be a fun conversation.
1:40: I'm looking forward to it.
1:42: For those who don't know who you are, I don't know who, who wouldn't know who you are, but for anybody in the audience who's like, not familiar with Sasha Black.
1:49: Just tell us a little bit about yourself.
1:50: We'll obviously get into, we'll, we'll dive into it more, but just a quick introduction for those who don't know.
1:55: So I am Sasha Black, although I write my fiction as Ruby Rowe.
2:00: I write Safic fantasy, very, very spicy Saic fantasy.
2:05: I am a TikTok darling, and I also, I am still a speaker, so I, I took like a year off speaking purely because my business like.
2:13: Exploded and I just did not have any more capacity.
2:16: But I am speaking at some conferences again next year.
2:19: So I am still a speaker.
2:21: And, and when I speak, I try and teach, not just give, you know, kind of inspirational cue notes.
2:26: So I do, do, do a little bit of teaching.
2:28: Previously I have been a podcast host as well for writers.
2:32: I had the Rebel Author podcast that is now no longer.
2:35: I'm a mum and a wife and generally very tired.
2:40: Yes, yes.
2:43: No, I just, those of us with, yes, I can, I can, I can relate to that.
2:47: Obviously, a husband, not a wife, but whatever.
2:49: You, you get the idea.
2:50: I don't wanna, I don't wanna tumble up too much.
2:52: But no, we're, we're excited to have you here.
2:54: We're gonna be talking about quite a bit because you've pivoted several times in your career into writing, publishing, and then also within self-publishing itself.
3:04: And so there's a lot to talk about.
3:06: We always though at the beginning here, we like to kind of play a little bit of catch up with the team and everybody else, talk about some of the things we've been working on creatively these days.
3:14: Really, I'll be honest with you, Sasha, this is just an opportunity for Me to keep myself accountable because if I say something on the podcast, by the next episode, I need to have made progress on it and then I can kind of hold Kelly and Emma, you know, accountable too.
3:28: It's like our little accountability minute we fit it in here into the podcast, so it's public is all.
3:33: But Kelly, what have you, this alternation was last week, so I'm not expecting everybody's made a huge amount of progress.
3:40: How have covered from alternation?
3:42: Are we back to writing?
3:43: Where are we at?
3:44: Yeah, so I went back to writing.
3:46: Last night, and it was a little bit, it was a little bit slow go, but, I do, I feel like I just needed a lot more sleep than I thought.
3:55: I didn't even change time zones to go to Vegas.
3:58: So, but man, it was just nonstop daily every day until, you know, late into the evenings.
4:05: yeah, I feel like yesterday was probably the first day I felt really recovered.
4:10: So I was like, OK, back to it a bit.
4:12: So yeah, I'm hoping I can get there soon.
4:15: Yeah, some people came home with not feeling the greatest.
4:18: So yeah, I, I, I did lose my voice and it's still a little rough.
4:22: Like I could still hear how rough I am because I was talking so much to people.
4:27: yeah.
4:28: I'll just, I'll just boost your audio a little bit.
4:30: Don't, don't, don't try to overstrain yourself here.
4:34: So no problem.
4:35: I know for, for my part, I got a lot of writing done on the plane to Vegas.
4:40: I actually did.
4:40: It's kind of, I was impressed with myself because I don't usually do that.
4:43: And then after that first night, I just hit a wall, and we were, we were at the book funnel booth.
4:49: I was talking to authors all day, then we would go out for dinner and, you know, we'd get.
4:53: get home late, get back to the hotel late.
4:56: And so, yeah, I, I've got to kind of restart and prime the engine there.
5:01: One thing I am curious about, Sasha, and I'm, I'm not familiar with like your release schedule.
5:06: so I don't know like how, what's typical for you in a week of the amount of words that you try to produce to keep up with that sort of thing.
5:14: And then when you are traveling like to Vegas for a conference or something like that, how do you How do you adjust?
5:19: Do you try to get frontload some of those words because you know you're gonna have to recover, or?
5:23: So I'm a binge writer, so I will spend many months not writing and then I will spend many months writing.
5:29: So I don't, I am not a write everyday person.
5:32: I just cannot, like it's, that is slow, painful death to me.
5:36: I don't, as much as I'm not very adaptable, I'm not a huge fan of routine either, so.
5:40: , so yeah, for me, when I write a book, the hardest bit is the outline, and that takes me forever to get done.
5:49: And then once the outline's done, I usually write a book in 3 or 4 weeks, and then I edit it in 2.
5:54: So most of, I used to be a developmental editor, so a lot of my editing happens in the outline, which sounds bizarre.
5:59: But basically, I get this.
6:01: Click moment and that's when I know the story's ready to be written.
6:04: So yeah, I, I binge write, I would say, and then I have periods where I do crazy things like rent a warehouse.
6:11: I dig it.
6:12: I'm there for it.
6:13: And everybody has a different way of doing things and I think it's important to not lock yourself in.
6:18: Like, I'm sure you had to discover that you were a binge writer maybe because, I did.
6:23: You need to write every day and maybe that's just, it's just not for everybody.
6:26: Yeah, and so, and I'm also like pretty, I go pretty hard on what everything.
6:31: So like when I go to the conference, I am all in on the conference.
6:34: Like, I will be out until my eyes are bleeding, and then I will go home.
6:38: I'll go back to the room or whatever, and then I get up, you know, and also if, if there's a time zone difference, then it just ruins my career.
6:45: I cannot write when I'm tired.
6:47: Right, right.
6:48: No, I, I, I, I'm, I'm there with you right now actually.
6:54: Well, Emma, we're Have you been at?
6:56: Are you in the, the same boat as, as some of us here might be getting back from Vegas?
7:01: I ain't got none for you, bro.
7:04: No, but like Sasha, I call it a phoenix.
7:07: I'm a phoenix, so I'm not in a writing mode anyway.
7:11: I won't be even a week or two, even if you're not in writing mode, like, you know what, because there's, there's value in like other things related to your, to yourself, the other things related to my self-publishing is sleeping, Jack.
7:24: Yeah, no, absolutely.
7:27: So much.
7:28: Yes, absolutely.
7:29: Sleeping is the priority right now.
7:31: But you know, I guess for, from the, because you mentioned the whole Phoenix, and this has been mentioned on the podcast before, you've mentioned it a few times, but there are stages, I know where it's like you're focusing on marketing now.
7:42: So writing can be on the back.
7:44: Back burner and marketing is really important to your business.
7:49: So, absolutely.
7:51: Yes, my kids don't seem to know that though.
7:53: My, my, my 2 year old has decided that she wakes up at like 1 or 2 in the morning, and then she'll crawl into bed between she kicks me out of my spot in bed.
8:02: I'm so glad those days are over.
8:05: I'm, I'm, I'm, we're, and we're expecting number 4, so I have, I'm gonna do this again.
8:10: I'm, we're very, very excited, very excited.
8:13: But, but yeah, when you're, you've got all those things to juggle, you gotta cut yourself some slack sometimes and, and focus on sleep.
8:20: So that's good.
8:21: All right, so I, I, I want, we're gonna pivot here, we're gonna get to kind of The topic of today, and I, I joked beforehand that the topic of this episode of the podcast is Sasha Black, but I think it really is because you have so much, you've done so much and accomplished so much that I don't think we can separate those topics from your story.
8:43: I don't, maybe you want to and maybe you just wanna talk about stuff.
8:45: I don't, but it, it's just very impressive what you've managed to accomplish.
8:49: So I know for a lot of authors, it's they're gonna be like, whoa, like somebody has, has done this, even if they don't necessarily want to do all the things you're doing, like buying a warehouse, but renting, renting, renting.
9:00: I haven't bought yet.
9:02: My accountant is encouraging me though, and I'm like, that's a big commitment.
9:05: That is, you know, that is some, yeah, you know, but at some point you might have to put a ring on it.
9:10: But anyway.
9:12: So, let's introduce us to kind of, to your journey here a little bit.
9:16: I know there's a lot of elements that are part of it.
9:18: There's direct sales, that's an element of it.
9:20: You mentioned TikTok.
9:22: We'll get to all that.
9:23: Like, where did, where did we start out?
9:25: Let's start from there and then we'll naturally get to all of those things along the way.
9:29: I have a feeling.
9:30: OK, so I always say, I think if I was a little bit more self-aware, I probably would have started like writing with the intention to publish from the off, but rightly so, my parents gave me good advice to, you know, go and do a degree where you could have a career.
9:45: career out of it.
9:46: So, I did a degree, and I didn't know what I wanted to do, so I just did a master's.
9:51: and then I kind of, there was, like, stuff that happened, and I ended up in this corporate, what I like to call hellmare, like a nightmare, but it was hellish.
10:00: And I knew within 6 months, I was on one of these fast track grad schemes that I'd made an egregious.
10:07: But I was stuck there because they made me do another master's, which they paid for.
10:11: And so I was kind of in this sphere for like at least 4 years.
10:16: So, I did what any self-respecting millennial would do back then, and I started writing a blog anonymously about corporate bureaucracy and like the ridiculous, like, shenanigans that would happen.
10:28: And people laughed and I was like, oh yeah, a guy can be funny and I love writing and so then I kind of dug out all my journal, my sort of story journals that I used to write when I was a teenager and stuff like this and I was like, oh yeah, like I used to love like reading and stories because I literally like my mum had to move library because I'd read everything in the kids' section and stuff like that when I was a kid.
10:49: I was a I was born to do this.
10:51: Anyway, and I, and I participated in the now defunct.
10:55: Nano Rhimo.
10:56: And I can never quite remember if I was pregnant at the time or if it was the year after, but it was either 2013 or 2014, and that was it.
11:04: Like I wrote the 50K.
11:05: It's the only time I won Nano because I never really participated properly again.
11:10: but I never stopped.
11:12: That was the start of what became the first fiction book that I published.
11:17: It took me 43 years, 2017.
11:21: I first published.
11:24: and at the same time as doing that, I was kind of sharing all the lessons that I'd learned, and I know you, you asked me not to swear for at least 5 minutes, but we've already reached that point.
11:34: So I used to write up for my lessons on this blog, and, and I'm very snarky, and I like dick jokes.
11:41: So I I was writing up this nonfiction stuff, teaching people how to write in a humorous way, and people laughed, and a couple of these posts went viral.
11:50: So I was like, like, there must be a market for that.
11:53: So then I wrote up this, the kind of lessons and filled it out and really sort of went into detail into it, and that, that was like it.
12:01: So I, I published nonfiction.
12:03: In 2017, as well as fiction.
12:05: In 2019, I had an offer from the Alliance of Independent Authors who are incredible.
12:11: You all need to join if you haven't.
12:13: and they basically wanted me to run and manage their blog and some conferences and things for them.
12:18: Now, up until this point, I, I knew that that month when I had written my first nano project, that this was what I wanted to do with my life, but I had a ton Of debt.
12:27: I had $400,000 worth of debt, and I was only earning about $400,000 a year.
12:30: Some of this was like, fertility treatment and student loans and car debt, and blah, blah, blah.
12:35: So, I was like, right, I have to get rid of it.
12:36: So, it took me 3 years, I got rid of it.
12:39: I actually still don't know how I did that, but I did.
12:41: And the week I paid off my last debt, I got the offer from the Alliance of Independent Authors.
12:46: If that isn't a sign from the universe, I don't know what it is.
12:49: So, I Took both my managers to lunch and they knew before I'd even sat down, they were like, you're gonna quit, aren't you?
12:55: And I was like, yeah.
12:56: And then that was that.
12:57: So I quit my day job, that was 2019.
13:00: And then I sort of continued doing freelance, really hustling, because I halved my income.
13:05: I went down to about 200, I don't know what that is in US dollars, maybe like $30,000.
13:10: So, you know, it was pretty tough going for a while.
13:13: And I was hustle, hustle hustled, but I, I made it work.
13:18: And then I just about got my income to.
13:23: 2 or 3000 a month, maybe 4000 on a really good launch month.
13:28: but I knew that I had kind of created, like, a job for myself rather than building a business and a, and kind of a lifetime career that I was in love with.
13:37: And in 2022, I read a book by Katie Robert, Queen Takes Rose, and it was a spicy, kind of erotic lesbian romance.
13:48: And I was like, Wait, what?
13:51: Because everything that I had written fiction-wise had been straight, because that's what I'd kind of been.
13:56: In society that it's like MF romance and, and it just, you know, when I was a teenager there weren't any young adult Safi books that that just didn't exist.
14:05: So I hadn't consumed any of that content, so I didn't know that content existed because I didn't even know to go and look for it.
14:10: And just so happy that I stumbled across Katie's book.
14:14: But it was literally like ripping the lid off Pandora's box and there was no going back.
14:19: I could not unsee what I had seen.
14:21: And so, much to my wife's chagrin, I took another massive risk and I just stopped writing any nonfiction.
14:29: I stopped kind of, doing all of the things that were bringing me income, and I wrote this very spicy, well, it's kind of tame now when I look back at it and look at what I'm writing now, but it was spicy for me at the time.
14:43: So this spicy romanticy that was Traffic for adults, because everything that I'd found in the market was kind of young adult and owned by traditional publishing.
14:51: and I published that in February 2023.
14:54: I got bullied into TikTok by the incredible Adam Beswick, in November at, what was the last 20 Books Vegas, 2023.
15:03: I then started posting on TikTok in, towards the end of November.
15:08: I went viral.
15:09: , on the 8th of December 2023.
15:12: And just to give you some perspective, so I had kind of never gotten my income above $3000 on Amazon.
15:19: So 3000 British pounds, I don't know what that is in dollars.
15:22: And November, I was fighting tooth and nail to get it above that, and I clipped it.
15:26: I managed it by about 7 pounds, and I was so happy.
15:31: And then I went viral.
15:33: And I slammed, like, $800,000 on Amazon in December.
15:37: And then by the July of the following year, it was $19,000 on Amazon, and then by the December, it was 42.
15:44: But by the following December, I'd also had my warehouse, so I think I turned over about $7,500,000 in that December.
15:51: So it literally just changed my entire life.
15:55: And now I have a warehouse and a team.
15:58: And like this behemoth, that's kind of where I'm at.
16:02: That was so, so the, the pivoting paid off, but obviously, and maybe this is the first thing to go into is like, you know, for a lot of folks, that's the change that first change that you made like quit.
16:14: Do the day job to write full time and or, you know, whatever you cobble together, right?
16:19: Or what writing is involved is the dream.
16:22: And that's, you know, a lot of people don't realize like, yeah, you're, there's a big risk and everything's on you.
16:28: Like, what, what's that feel like to make that.
16:31: I always think it's like the beauty of being human, right?
16:34: Because we can hold conflicting emotions at the same time.
16:37: And I, I remember I cried every single, and I'm not really a crier, I'm pretty dead on the inside, but I literally cried every day for six months after I left my day job.
16:47: And it wasn't sadness, it was joy.
16:49: I was literally so full of joy, it leaked from my eyeballs.
16:54: And I like, it was just, it was wonderful.
16:56: I remember that.
16:57: First week, I just wandered around my house like a lost sheep.
17:00: Like, why am I not being told what to do?
17:02: Like, can I go to the post office?
17:04: It's, it's 11 o'clock.
17:05: It's not my lunch break.
17:06: Like, you know, it's wild.
17:08: But then, you know, so I, I was so full of this joy, but at the same time, the pressure to earn enough money because, so it's funny because my wife wanted to be able to support me.
17:21: She now could, if I quit my day job now, it would have been fine.
17:24: Back then, we were still quite young, we were still sort of early in our careers.
17:27: So, she was like, look, you can quit your day job, but you have to earn enough to pay your bills.
17:32: Like, I can't cover you.
17:33: So, I literally did anything and everything.
17:36: I did, like, PA VA work.
17:38: I did the freelance for Ally.
17:41: I was doing kind of loads of work for hire.
17:44: I was trying to get speaking gigs, you know, I was, I was trying to do everything and anything that I could.
17:50: And that is so hard when you're also trying to then write books as well, because, obviously, that was what I'd left my day job for.
17:56: Like, there is no way to get around that.
17:58: The grind is grueling, but if, you know, I loved every second of it, I wouldn't change a single second of that journey, because I was so full of joy at the same time that it made those late nights and those early mornings and those long days completely worth it, because I was finally earning money from Like my own brain and my own creativity.
18:20: And I don't, I just, that's unparalleled for me.
18:22: There's nothing that compares.
18:24: So what I find really interesting about what you've been saying is that you're not trying to gloss over, like, the gritty details of how hard it was to make the transitions, because we all know as authors, you'll see these magical posts in internet groups.
18:38: They're like, Just do the work.
18:40: Just dive in.
18:40: Just go for it.
18:41: I'm like, how did you pay your bills, bro?
18:43: Yeah.
18:44: I mean, did you have children at the time, or was it just you and your wife?
18:48: No, no, so we have, that was part of the debt that I had to pay off.
18:52: So we're, we're a same-sex couple, so we were missing a very vital element to actually get pregnant.
18:58: Couldn't have done it by accident.
18:59: So, you know, that was like 120,000 pounds of British pounds, yeah, of debt.
19:05: And that was like 12 years ago as well, so goodness knows what that would be now in today's money.
19:11: So I've completely forgotten the question.
19:13: Sorry, I'm tired after Vegas.
19:15: 120.
19:16: That 12k derailed me to, I'm like, yeah, how much?
19:20: Like, oh, OK.
19:23: So yeah, no, I, yeah, it was, because we had a son as well.
19:26: If you'd had children and then how the grind and how you were able to kind of make it work by being a with being a mom and like, how did you make all that.
19:35: Work and then, and get the words in and do the freelancing.
19:40: Is that just like, did it just kind of flow naturally?
19:43: Like where it's like, oh, well, I've got to do this now and I've got to do this now.
19:46: Like, where, and when did you decide, like, you were at a spot where you could make that pivot into your, your fiction and into the Sappic writing?
19:56: So, these are great questions, and I don't think I have any decent answers.
20:00: For you, because, like, if I look back at what I did in the corporate world, I literally wrote every single second that I had spare.
20:07: So, for example, I would put whatever my last paragraph was in my Apple Notes on my phone, and I, if I was, we had these really long corridors.
20:17: So, if I had to walk to a meeting, I'd walk not very quickly, and I would write two or three sentences between meetings.
20:23: If people were late.
20:24: To my meetings, I would get my phone out and write.
20:27: I would go for about 5 copies a day just so that I could write in the queue, for the, for the coffee.
20:32: So, like, you know, and I, that I worked late.
20:35: I did not have a good balance, and my poor wife put up with me because there were a lot of evenings that were sacrificed to me writing instead of, you know, watching TV or, or playing games or, or doing whatever.
20:48: Like, It was, it was ugly, if I'm honest.
20:50: Like, you know, I probably was a little bit selfish because I desperately had this vision of where I could be and what I wanted to do with my life, and I'm just very grateful that she was happy to support me.
21:01: But it was savage, like, and also the, the finance thing was, was really terrifying.
21:07: I don't know that there's any other way.
21:08: Like, and people always ask that question, oh, you know, like, how did you know?
21:12: Why didn't?
21:13: There is no certainty in this industry, you just have to take the risk.
21:18: Are you willing to take that risk?
21:19: Like, I, I tell you, the other thing that I did have on my side, my stepdad is incredible.
21:25: He is the most wonderful father figure to me.
21:29: And he gave me a little bit of money after I paid off all my debt and said, put that in the bank and have it there as.
21:36: A fallback.
21:38: So, and this was because basically the offer came in.
21:40: So I paid off all my debt, and my next step was to save like 2 months' worth of salary.
21:45: And I didn't have the time to do that because the offer came in and it was like, jump now or don't jump ever.
21:52: And I was like, I have to jump.
21:53: So my stepdad gave me a couple of months, like income and said, do not touch it unless you absolutely have to.
21:59: , and then basically give it back when you're, when you, when you've replaced it, kind of thing, you know, when you've got your own little pot.
22:07: And, so that would be like the one thing that I would say to people, to do that I didn't do is to save that little pot because having that buffer there meant that I could take the risk and know that at least the next 2 months were covered.
22:23: Right.
22:24: And that's what I would have done had that offer not come in, that I would not have left my job for another couple of months.
22:30: But in terms of, like, you know, there is no good timing.
22:33: It always feels like freefall without a parachute, and you're always gonna crap your pants, because, like, you are literally taking that burden on yourself.
22:42: And I genuinely do not think that this is for everybody.
22:46: And it's probably really controversial because lots of people say, you know, everybody can write a book, or, you know, like, follow your dreams.
22:51: Well, don't, if you're not willing.
22:53: To carry that pressure, and if that pressure is going to affect your creativity, don't do it, because it will crush you.
23:00: Keep your day job and write alongside it.
23:02: There is no shame in that.
23:03: I don't know why so many people in this industry kind of put being full-time on a pedestal.
23:08: It's fucking hard.
23:09: It's really hard.
23:11: So, yeah, like, if that is your dream, do it, but go in with your eyes open, knowing that your creativity is what needs to generate your mortgage money, for example.
23:21: Right.
23:22: And so again with the, with the Safik books, like I just, it was not a cool conversation with my wife.
23:28: I just remember the blood kind of draining out of her face as she's, cos my wife doesn't like Risk, whereas I will get eat Risk for breakfast.
23:35: Yeah.
23:36: And, and she was just like, you better know what you're doing.
23:38: And I was like, yeah, I do.
23:41: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do, yeah.
23:44: I just think it's the beauty of the self-publishing is that that type of story was not available for you.
23:50: You weren't seeing it anywhere.
23:51: It was something that, you know, you didn't grow up reading, and then you have a lot of people coming along in this industry and kind of revolutionizing even just storytelling itself, which is that.
24:02: Pivot is like wonderful because you're like, oh, I can, I can pivot to something that speaks a little bit more to me and like what I want to do, which is really cool.
24:10: Like that's the thing I love about self-publishing is it changed the storytelling that was being done in in a lot of genres, not just romance, but in a lot of genres.
24:20: Yeah, and the wild thing about that is that I saw a hole in the market.
24:24: So I actually went and looked and once I'd read sort of Katie's book, I was Like, wait, I need more of this.
24:31: How do I get more of this?
24:32: And there was hardly anything because all of the adult, lesbian romances were contemporary.
24:37: And any, fantasy that I found, I am like diehard fantasy reader, always have been.
24:42: And any fantasy that I found was young adult.
24:44: And I was like, well, where are the authors?
24:47: Like, where are the books?
24:48: And there was like 3 or something, you know, right at the bottom of the charts or whatever, and I was like, I'm gonna fix this.
24:56: And so then, yeah, like I studied all of the elements of like bestselling fantasy, bestselling romanticy, best selling lesbian romances, and kind of smushed them together, in order to create what I now write, basically.
25:12: But yeah, I did a lot of market research, a lot of.
25:16: Background knowledge, a lot of deconstructing, a lot of reading bestsellers, a lot of deciding what I did like, what I didn't like, kind of innately understanding my brand without being able to label it at that point, I think.
25:28: Yeah.
25:29: Yeah.
25:29: Well, and that's an important step too, that I think in any genre as well, that I think a lot of.
25:35: Authors maybe take for granted, because that first story that I think for most of us that we ever wrote was just whatever, like, whatever we, whatever came to mind, whatever we were inspired to write.
25:45: I know mine was a hodgepodge of whatever was in my brain when I was 15 years old.
25:50: But right when you're making it a business and everything is writing on it, like, It's kind of incumbent upon you to do that research, if you're gonna risk it all, right?
26:00: Especially if you're making that pivot too, yeah, that pivot is huge because, you know, there's a risk to that like.
26:07: , and, and did you write your original under the same pen name with the, the straight fiction, or did you have a different, so this was like you, you were like, I'm pivoting with a new pen name.
26:20: So I literally started from scratch and at first I kept it all secret.
26:24: So, and this was really hard because I had a podcast at the time.
26:27: So I was kind of like talking like vaguely about what I was doing.
26:31: And I was still doing it under a pen name.
26:33: And, and, like, it was, like it, this was the most vulnerable I had ever been, right?
26:38: Because I knew that people were gonna read my books, read, read The Spice in it, be like, Oh, is that you?
26:44: Like, even though that's not what anybody does, you're still gonna get judged for that, right?
26:48: So I wrote under a pen name because I needed it to be totally secret.
26:52: I'd never written lesbian romance, even Though that's my lived experience, and it felt terrifying.
26:58: So I had to, I had to be really precious about that story.
27:02: And so I wrote it in complete anonymity.
27:05: The second I sent that book off to the editor, I was like, I don't care anymore.
27:10: I'm ready to talk about it.
27:12: And so I completely opened up and I was like, this is the pen name.
27:16: This is what I'm doing.
27:17: And actually this is a really cute story about the pen name.
27:21: My stepfather's surname is Rowe, and for years he was the one telling me to write spicy, and I was like, I can't possibly do that.
27:29: Like, I'm a young adult author.
27:31: and he, he was like, I'm telling you, you'll sell loads.
27:34: And I was like, oh, ha ha ha, I'll write spicy books if I can use your surname.
27:38: And he was like, hm, OK.
27:41: And so you did.
27:43: And now the family legacy is a load of filth.
27:48: So, yeah, never let someone use your name.
27:52: I think there's something to, like, keeping something like that to yourself, though, even obviously, cause in this case, it was, it was, there was an element from, I'm gathering from what you're saying that was like personal, but even just from a creative standpoint, when something is new like that, I know I've done this too, where like, I have a new idea for a story, and I keep it to myself until it's ready to be seen and Like from a, I think that when you tell people about what you're doing before you've finished it, your brain gets that dopamine, like that satisfaction from like other people like, oh wow, that's really cool.
28:23: And then that can sometimes just like take the wind out of your sails of like actually then finishing the job.
28:29: But of course, then there's this other layer here about I just, this was a more vulnerable story.
28:34: Or you were more vulnerable, vulnerable in telling the story than you were with what you've done previously.
28:38: So there's like, there's multiple layers there.
28:40: I, I imagine like what was, how did it feel then when it, I imagine it felt great once it was just, you could be out in the open about it.
28:49: The whole thing, yeah, the whole thing was full of joy.
28:51: Like it's one of the fastest books I've ever written as well.
28:54: I think it was like.
28:55: 2, 2.5, 2.5 to 3 weeks it took me to write it, cos it literally, it was like I'd uncorked all of this kind of true storytelling energy and it just, I vomited it onto the page and I was like, this is pretty good.
29:13: I was like, there's something here and.
29:15: And I can't, like, yeah, it, it was, it was so, it's actually a little bit emotional thinking about that whole journey and, and where I have got to now with it.
29:23: And it's so funny that you were talking about hiding, like, well, not hiding, that's the wrong word, but keeping it private until it's finished.
29:29: I made a really massive mistake this year, and it nearly cost me an entire launch.
29:34: And that was, so I just launched this book here, which is called Architecty.
29:39: And, I, basically, because I took the decision to open a warehouse, I got quite behind on my publishing deadlines.
29:47: And so, we were already marketing this book, because I know I can write quickly when I have to.
29:53: We were already marketing this book, which meant people knew about the tropes.
29:56: They knew about little bits about the plot, which meant I then couldn't change it.
30:00: And then when I came across a major stumbling block.
30:03: I was like, oh, we're in trouble.
30:05: And it was, without doubt, the hardest book I've ever had to write, because there was so much, kind of, social media pressure from all the readers that already knew about it, and I will never ever make that mistake.
30:16: I am being asked daily what is coming next.
30:18: I mean, it's the sequel to that, so everybody knows that.
30:21: So that, that doesn't really matter, but it's when you write something new, like when it's a new series.
30:25: So I'm also outlining, like, what's coming next.
30:28: I'm not telling anybody anything until that first book is done.
30:31: Yeah.
30:32: Because it just that more than the pressure to earn money, that crippled my ability to create.
30:38: Well, that's interesting.
30:38: So you, you were like the expectation that you've, you've put it out into the world, these tropes or these things, and then you're like, just kidding, I'm not doing that.
30:49: You, it's not something you can just do, right?
30:50: Like, oh, I'm not gonna do that.
30:52: I, I decided to change my mind and I can imagine, I had that, I kind of built myself into a corner with my storyline.
30:59: And there's a lot of expectations, and it's like now I have to meet them, and I don't, I don't keep the, the flowing of, of that energy from happening.
31:09: Yeah, it really does.
31:11: It reminds me, we were talking with Becca Simon a previous episode about how like there's different levels to your business, like different stages, and for authors who like, if you're not profitable, and so you're, you're writing, you're publishing, but You're probably not to the point yet where you have like a huge audience and tons of attention that things are different there at that stage than they are where like, you're at like stage 5, which I'm now going to call the Sasha Black stage, which is, you are just an absolute badass in every realm.
31:40: Stop.
31:41: But, but, but, but I imagine like the problems are different, because in that first stage, you're like, you are just kind of by nature anonymous, because even if you're openly publishing under even like your own name, nobody knows or cares.
31:56: And so the pressure is not there.
31:58: And, and I guess not just the pressure to, to earn an income and earn a living, but then the pressure to deliver a book that you've promised.
32:05: And now at this stage, we're like, that's something you wouldn't think about, is like, oh yeah, of course, social media is going to be part of your business, and it's logically going to make sense to tease what's coming next, but you may not, you don't want to like, you know, point a spotlight on something and not know the route to get there just yet, and it's gonna be more twisted than you might think.
32:26: Yeah, exactly.
32:28: Yeah, the warehouse though, we have to talk about the warehouse.
32:30: I feel like that's the best pivot here, because from the warehouse, we can actually work backwards and see how we can, so how big is this, this warehouse and what do you do?
32:40: What do I do?
32:42: What do you do with it?
32:43: So I have always had a transactional website, even from like the early stages of Sasha Black.
32:49: I've always used Book Funnel.
32:52: you guys have been with me a really long time.
32:54: Even when I was selling non, you know, two nonfiction books a month, I was still with Book Funnel at that point.
33:00: Mhm.
33:01: And so, when I started Ruby Row, I knew I was gonna have a transactional website.
33:06: That said, I did put my e-books into KU.
33:09: I designed them for KU and then pulled them out after 2 years, so I'm now completely wired.
33:14: And my Shopify just, OK, so I, I started my Ruby Shopify on.
33:22: December 10th.
33:24: So two days after I went viral, I, like, looked at the virality and I was like, I don't wanna be paying somebody else a third of my income.
33:32: And I was like, better move quickly.
33:35: So I did an MVP, the quickest, like, pivot MVP I've ever done.
33:39: Slapped up a Shopify after, like, picking up the phone.
33:42: And calling all my author friends who'd like got one.
33:44: I was like, how do you do this, how do you do this, how do you do this?
33:47: Got it live in two days before I even announced it was out, I had a sale, and I was like, wait, what?
33:54: and that changed everything.
33:56: I was like, this is exciting.
33:58: They'd seen you on social media and they probably just googled your name and found or, yeah.
34:03: And then I was like, this is, this is how I'm gonna take over.
34:08: So, so that first month, I made 1700 pounds.
34:12: Well, that was, that was that December that I went viral, that I made the 800,000 pounds on Amazon.
34:16: I made 1700 pounds.
34:17: Reminder, I opened it on December 10th.
34:19: I made that 1700 pounds in December on my Shopify, and I was like, this is wicked.
34:26: Like, and at that point, I only had my girl games.
34:29: They were all physical, books, cause I had my books in KU still.
34:33: And I kind of connected to one of the, print, print on demand companies, which was great.
34:39: They were fantastic.
34:40: Hey, I have got this all written down because I've just been writing up a, a random spontaneous podcast.
34:44: I can't remember the exact date.
34:45: I think it was about the summer.
34:47: , of 24, I was hitting about 8000 a month on my Shopify.
34:56: And I was like, we're doing really well.
34:58: And then by December 20, December 2024, I'd hit $10,000 10,000.
35:05: pounds on my website.
35:07: And I was like, Hold on, hold on a second.
35:09: I'm now making more, like, on average, on, on the Shop, well, maybe, yeah, maybe more on the Shopify than I was on Amazon.
35:17: And I wasn't able to customize anything.
35:19: Well, sorry, my cat is like destroying half my office.
35:23: I wasn't able to customize anything.
35:25: I wasn't able to sign all the books.
35:27: I wasn't able to give little gifts and freebies.
35:30: And I was like, I really want to do more.
35:32: So the month prior, so November 24, I basically begged Willow Winters to let me buy her cocktails and pick her brains.
35:41: And it was.
35:42: Because of her essentially that I ended up with this warehouse.
35:45: January 31st, I picked up the keys.
35:47: February 20th, we had the print run deliveries, of 25.
35:51: So this is January 25th.
35:54: What?
35:54: Is it still this year?
35:56: This has been a long year.
35:58: So yeah, February 2.5 now, yeah, yeah.
36:02: Yeah, I am tired, man, I didn't realize it was this year still, but, but you've been hustling, you've been hustling.
36:10: Like, I'm sorry to interrupt you here, but like you're, you're having, so everybody in the audience understands clearly, you are having your book.
36:18: Your physical books delivered to your warehouse, and you are shipping them yourself to your, your customers, which is something where you tell authors that they're like, oh my gosh, why would I want to do that like print out the magic, but obviously there's a reason.
36:35: Yeah, it was the customizing, and like, we have 3 kind of main promises on the website, which I think has been the, the main driver as to why my website does so well, which I will tell you about in a second.
36:47: But basically, this requires a significant capital spend to actually do this.
36:54: So I do not recommend this to people unless you have got a seriously consistent number of sales on your website.
37:02: I say that because I just made the team.
37:04: Up the print runs, and I nearly shut the bed, because I've spent $1,000,000 on printing this year.
37:11: Yeah, yeah.
37:12: And that does include my Kickstarter, which was a third, just over a third of that money.
37:17: But the rest, I think it was like $680,000 or whatever it was, was printing for the warehouse.
37:22: So, it is a big expenditure.
37:25: But what we do in there is we, we have all the books, I sign everything, we parcel it, we give freebies, we, ship them out.
37:34: We are also now moving into book boxes as well.
37:36: And so the reason why I think I've done well is threefold.
37:40: The first thing, I took a huge risk, another one, you'll notice a trend here, apparently this, this podcast is about risk.
37:47: I decided to release short stories, or novevellas, really, on my website, exclusively.
37:54: You know, some, sometimes I always think that, well, what am I trying to say here?
37:58: I think one of the reasons KU does so well is because it is exclusive, and therefore the readers know.
38:03: That that's the only place they can get it.
38:04: Obviously, the subscription is a huge part of that, but it, the exclusivity is what forces people there.
38:10: So I was like, well, maybe I make some stuff exclusive on my website cause then I force readers to come to me.
38:16: So I've done that, not once, not twice, but 4 times now, and I will waft these books on my TikTok or on my Insta or wherever, and people are like, Oh, wait, wait, wait, I don't have that.
38:28: That's not on Amazon.
38:29: Where do I get that?
38:29: And I'm like, Oh, honey, let me tell you.
38:32: And of course, that first time, I make sure they have a really good experience, right?
38:37: They get freebies, they get character art, they get whatever, everything comes signed.
38:42: And so they're like, huh, this is better than Amazon even though I had to pay slightly more and it took slightly longer to get here.
38:48: So, the first thing I did was I had those exclusive novellas.
38:52: And then the 3 things, the whole system of Shopify has to be grounded in why.
38:59: Why should a reader come and shop from you when they can get it cheaper, faster, and more effectively on Amazon or Barnes and Noble or go into a store or wherever, right?
39:10: So you have to have, why should a reader come to you at the heart of your design of your business?
39:15: So my 3 promises, everything will be signed by hand, by me.
39:20: You will get freebies.
39:22: So we do, like, standard freebie packs where they get a sticker, a bookmark, and character art.
39:27: And then we also have things like, so for people that are listening rather than watching, we've had, like, pop sockets designed, and my readers have, have named themselves the Romantics.
39:37: And so, we now Have like romantics merch and stuff, but they get a little romantics pop socket, they get a Ruby Rowe reading tracker, like a reading order and some stickers and stuff.
39:47: So they get freebies.
39:48: And then the third thing is, if you pre-order from me, I guarantee that we will deliver that book to you in whatever format it's in early.
39:58: So you will get it before Amazon, before Kobe, before Google.
40:02: And that is e-book, paperback, hardback, dyslexic versions.
40:06: Audio, I cannot control because, well, I can for the novellas, but I can't for everything else cos I license the rights to the audio.
40:13: But the formats that I have control of, we always guarantee that you get it early.
40:18: So there's, you know, that's a pretty big set of reasons to come direct.
40:22: Yeah, no, I love it, and, I want to obviously leave room here for Emma and Kelly to chime in, but I love what you're the concept of just like putting in the extra work to make it special for your readers.
40:34: I think that's because again, I think a lot of authors have the idea that they just need to put their books in KU and go on autopilot.
40:42: And you just release another book and, and you just keep feeding the Amazon machine and that's the recipe for success and direct sales.
40:48: Oh well, that's like really, like, that's really difficult and, but you've taken this approach of like just make it make it an experience for your readers and they'll come back.
40:59: I have, I love that.
41:00: I have a great example of that from this week, which has now become my highest selling week on Shopify ever because of this kind of thing that we.
41:08: Just done.
41:09: So, my next book release is this orange one here.
41:11: It's called A Game of Vows and Vendettas.
41:13: I only wrote that book because my readers bullied me.
41:16: Essentially, seriously, I'm not even joking.
41:18: The book is dedicated to the readers, right, because of this.
41:21: So, it's a crossover novel.
41:23: It's set at the wedding of two characters from my first series, that first ever book that I released, it's set at the wedding of some of the characters in this.
41:31: But I, I had to write a new romance, so I Took one character from the first series, one from the 2nd series, and, and kind of did this, this wedding bodyguard romance.
41:40: But what we decided to do is a surprise.
41:44: So we ran, this book box, it was our first book box, we limited it to 100, and I was like, there is no greater gift I can give readers than more story.
41:55: So I wrote, I whipped it out.
41:56: I literally don't even know how I did it.
41:57: I whipped out a second short story.
42:00: , and we put it in the bottom of this box, and we asked everybody to kind of film their reaction because they thought they were just getting one book.
42:07: and so we, we got them all to film it and record it.
42:10: And then we had this massive announcement on Monday that everybody who pre-orders on my website will get that short short story for free, like, as a Suffolk Santa thank you to.
42:22: All my readers.
42:23: So, literally, instead of getting one book, they're getting two.
42:25: I mean, sure, it's a short story, but they're getting this extra book.
42:28: Like, what do bookish people want more than anything?
42:30: More books, right?
42:31: And so, of course, what's happened, an absolute explosion of pre-orders on the website, leading us to our highest sales week ever.
42:40: So, was it gimmicky?
42:42: Maybe.
42:43: Was it a Genuine thank you.
42:44: It really was.
42:45: I had to pay out for all these books and all the printing of these books.
42:48: Now we are cutting it off, so it will be the 7th, they have to, like, pre-order by a certain date.
42:54: but, like, they've gone wild for it, and it's putting readers at the heart of what I do.
42:59: Like, it was a thank you.
43:01: I am genuinely grateful.
43:02: Like, I wouldn't have a career if it wasn't for them.
43:05: But there is nothing that I love more than book mail, and it's like giving every single reader a present, like what is better than that?
43:13: I love it, I literally love it.
43:16: So yeah, so I was just thinking about like your employees.
43:20: So now you're an employer, so How did that transition come about?
43:27: Did you just find people, because how do you, how do you know when you're like at a point where you need someone?
43:33: Because I think that's important, even if you're just looking for like a VA or something like that, because you'll get to a point where it's starting to impact your writing time and, and all the other.
43:43: Stuff that you're supposed to be doing and then you're like, but I have to fulfill book boxes or I have to do something, you know, where, when do you know that that's, when you get to that point, when did you know at least?
43:54: And then like, how do you find people to like that you can trust?
43:59: Like can you do this work?
44:00: Those are great questions.
44:01: So The answer to the first one is you don't know, and it's just the same as quitting your day job or taking any other risk.
44:10: It is a giant risk to, contract somebody or to employ them.
44:16: So I have one formal employee and I have contractors for everything else.
44:21: But it is, it is probably, other than quitting your day job, it's probably the second biggest risk.
44:27: Well, maybe stopping writing the thing that sold at the time was probably the 2nd biggest risk.
44:32: Let's say the 3rd biggest risk, right?
44:34: Apparently I like risk.
44:36: It's, yeah, we don't need, we don't need like hard rankings, but yeah, it's all, it's all risky here.
44:41: So yeah, I, I don't think you do know.
44:43: I think what happens is that you experience pain and a loss of joy.
44:50: So like the whole, the whole thing for me is to always do what feels joyful, and I am really bad at detail and I'm really bad at admin, like, so much so.
45:01: That I asked my operations manager to send me an email.
45:05: I saw the link that I wanted in that email the other day, and so I knew that it was in there for when I needed it.
45:12: Had no idea there was a whole 4 paragraphs of information in that email, and I'm like, well, why did you email it?
45:17: I'm not gonna open my emails.
45:19: So yeah, like, I, basically, how, when do I know when I really start hating.
45:25: Something.
45:25: When I really lose the joy for a piece of work, that's when I have to get rid of it.
45:30: One of my core recruitment, philosophies is to only employ people who love the thing that I hate.
45:37: I don't want anybody in my business doing work that they don't like.
45:40: Like, if you don't like it, fine, I'll find someone else to do it.
45:43: you have to be joyful in this business because I'm joyful in this business, so.
45:48: I still remember the first person that I kind of contracted.
45:53: I kept asking, like their joy comes from repetitive tasks, like doing the same thing week in, week out, and I just, like it, that is the death of my soul.
46:00: And I kept asking like, are, are you, are you sure you're OK?
46:03: Like is this OK?
46:05: Is this all right for you to do that?
46:06: Yeah, yeah, this is amazing.
46:07: I'm like, yeah, but are you, are you sure you're enjoying it still?
46:10: It was so funny, like, but actually over time I learned that they.
46:14: That they loved that.
46:15: So, and I, and I remember also having a really big conversation with my biological dad, who was like, there is no good time to employ somebody because it's always a risk, and it's one, it's one of those, like, chicken and egg, right?
46:31: You have to outflow the money on somebody before you see the consequence of bringing them in.
46:39: And the consequence of bringing them in is a significant inflow of money, but you have to have faith.
46:45: Like, there is no certainty with employing somebody because you can employ the wrong person.
46:50: You can, also, you have to expend time training them, right?
46:53: So, there is a big outflow of money, of time, of energy before that person becomes efficient in your business.
47:00: So, there is no good time.
47:02: And, like, the second time.
47:04: To do it is when you are in the most pain in your business.
47:08: You're struggling to write the words, you're struggling to get the social media marketing done or the ads done.
47:12: That is the second best time.
47:13: And in terms of, like, I, I forgot the second question, but, but the other thing is, like, you have to know that you will recruit the wrong person at, at some point.
47:21: I have.
47:22: That, that is part and parcel.
47:24: You just need, it's a sunk cost, just move them on and try again.
47:28: Like, you've got to have resiliency when you're Like bringing people into your team.
47:32: But every single time I have brought someone into my team, my income has increased.
47:36: So I genuinely believe that it is the right thing for your business, but you've got to be brave and take that risk.
47:43: And if it helps, like, put aside 2 months of that person's sort of contract money, right?
47:50: So then you know if you have to give them a month's notice, you've got that money set aside or whatever.
47:56: That's, that's a good strategy on it, cause obviously, you don't want to bring somebody on, and then, because when you bring somebody on, you're responsible for them.
48:02: It's really is kind of like having a toddler in your business, because you've gotta, you've gotta manage them, you've got to train them, like you said, to get them efficient in your business, but you're also, there's a big degree of responsibility there, like you, you are providing for that person, right?
48:17: That's how they're paying their bills.
48:18: That's how they're feeding their family or in themselves.
48:21: And so, I think having that measure of responsibility is is wise.
48:25: I know Kelly's like the second part of her question was like finding those people that you can trust.
48:29: How do you know you can trust somebody and like you said, you will wind up hiring the wrong person or bringing the wrong person in.
48:35: It's not a good fit and you amicably move on, I'm sure.
48:38: But yeah, how, what, where do you start?
48:40: Because I know how like book funnels started.
48:43: And like, like nepotism all the way down.
48:46: No, I'm kidding.
48:47: but, but it really it did was like Damon and Julie, right?
48:51: For those who don't know, Julie is, is the heart of Book Funnel.
48:53: She's Damon's wife.
48:54: They hired Kat, who was like a friend of Damon's like going back to like high school, and so somebody they knew and trusted, and for some people that's maybe a good first step, but I don't know if your, your journey there was different if like you hired somebody that you knew first and you felt comfortable with that situation.
49:11: Where you just dove in and they were like a complete stranger.
49:14: Yeah, so, they were a complete stranger.
49:17: Kind of, kind of.
49:18: So, network is network, network, network.
49:21: Everybody that I have recruited has been either somebody I know or somebody that, somebody that knew somebody I know.
49:28: and the first person was a friend of a friend, and she's an American expat, still with me, and I think in the 5 or 6 years that we have known each other, we've only been on.
49:39: Zoom twice, maybe 3 times.
49:41: Like, that's, but she was just the perfect person for me.
49:45: The reason that I know that is that her top 5 strengths are all blue, Clifton strengths for people that don't know.
49:50: So all hers are relationship building.
49:51: I got no blues anywhere in sight, anywhere.
49:54: I'm all yellow.
49:55: so I'm all influencing strengths.
49:58: But what it meant is that she was good at what I'm bad at, and my friends had been working with her for a really long time.
50:05: So I knew that her work ethic was great.
50:07: I knew that she She was doing a lot of the stuff that I needed her to do.
50:11: And I just took a, took a risk.
50:13: I took a chance, and kind of, you know, uploaded some tutorials for her.
50:18: We jumped on a Zoom, and then just trusted her to do it, and it worked out.
50:23: But I'm not saying that that's, that's recruitment method, but it is what worked, and 5 or 6 years later, it's still working.
50:30: The rest of them, it was like a friend's sister.
50:33: It was my cousin's.
50:36: Partner, it is my actual stepsister, my, so they're all, or it was a friend, or it was a friend of a friend.
50:42: So, like, yeah, a lot of people, I did try recruiting from within, kind of the community, and that didn't work so well for me.
50:50: I, I don't really know why.
50:51: I'm sure it would.
50:52: I'm sure it has worked, because I know lots of people have recruited either from readers or kind of, like, if you're nonfiction author, services, you've recruited from your own kind of readership, that can work.
51:03: It did Didn't work for me.
51:05: But yeah, it has pretty much been people that I know or people that, I know somebody who knows somebody.
51:11: So network is amazing, and that's why I always tell people, go to the conferences, ask the questions.
51:16: I am sure that that is also based on my personal strengths.
51:20: I am, even though I don't have relationship building strengths, I'm like a, a networker because of my yellow Clifton strength influencing things.
51:27: So, I'm always gonna find people through people.
51:30: Whereas somebody who might be more analytical or more Thinky or slightly more sort of reserved in those situations might want to do like your online recruitment or your, you know, posting in local community groups or something like that.
51:43: But for me, generally I find people by knowing people also because I really value the opinions of people in my life.
51:52: And if they say they trust them, then I'll, I'll lead with trust.
51:56: Right, right.
51:56: Well, and there's something to be said too for there being even, even In that first case, where it was not somebody that you knew directly, but they worked with some other folks that you know, you had that connection that way.
52:08: There's sort of an implicit accountability, where if they, if you bring them on, and they, you know, they screw you over or something, right?
52:16: Because that can happen too, right?
52:18: It's not just that, you know, the business could, you know, fail or something like that, but like, you know, who knows what the situation could be.
52:24: There's an accountability that they have then to the person that recommended them to you.
52:29: And so even if you don't directly know the person, the fact that there's that like interconnection, I, I, I think like, what, what is it?
52:36: I don't, there's a certain percentage of, of, of the workforce where you got the job from somebody else that worked there and, and that's one of the best ways to recruit because is that accountability is built in and.
52:47: And sometimes a complete stranger works, somebody totally unconnected, but it makes sense, especially in a small business, I think.
52:54: So that makes, you know, I'm not surprised at all.
52:57: That's how it naturally evolved.
52:58: But we have to get to TikTok.
53:00: We have to, like TikTok is, is the, is, is the, is, you know, the word of the day, it seems and Self-publishing, we were at Author Nation, and there was a lot of talk about TikTok while we were there.
53:11: I know Author Scale was there, and their whole thing is TikTok, so there were a lot of authors kind of on that.
53:16: I did a lot of one on ones with authors who are like, I gotta do TikTok now, and I, I think they're getting bullied like you were into TikTok, right?
53:22: If I, if I remember correctly.
53:24: So, how did you get into it?
53:25: What did you think of it before you did?
53:27: And it sounds like it's working for you.
53:30: You think, yeah.
53:32: So, OK, so here's the funny thing about TikTok.
53:34: I actually, I, this is probab, I don't really believe in having regrets, but I do think that I made a mistake, and I started my TikTok, January.
53:48: The 1st, 2nd, 3rd, whatever, 2023.
53:50: So the month before I released my first Safi book.
53:54: And I posted every day, and my whole mission was to get 1000 followers so that I could get the link in my bio, so that I could link them out to wherever.
54:05: And I did it in 3 weeks.
54:07: That should have been a green flag sign to me that I knew how to do, but like, obviously, I'm like ex-theater kid, had an agent, did voiceover work.
54:18: I bloody love the camera, you know, like, I should have, I don't know why I didn't click on, but, you know, I had two viral posts in those 1st 3 weeks, like, I should have recognized.
54:30: the potential and I didn't.
54:32: So I launched, and then I stopped.
54:34: And that was a mistake because I, I suspect a lot of the sales that came and sort of gave me that boost in that February were probably from TikTok looking back now.
54:45: And so I then stopped what I was doing and just sort of plodded along, doing Instagram, a little bit of Instagram.
54:53: I've never I run ads.
54:54: I've run a couple of Amazon ads, maybe like 100 bucks a month, 300 bucks a month.
55:00: That's, that's, that's about it that I've only ever spent.
55:03: I have no idea what I'm doing on there.
55:04: I just like click auto and hope for the best.
55:07: I'm doing well.
55:08: That's what we all do.
55:13: I've, I've heard a very similar story from other authors too, so I don't think you're lucky.
55:17: Yeah, and then.
55:18: , basically, I actually met Adam in the march in, Seville, 20 books Seville, and he, we made a pinky promise that I would be a six-figure author by the following year.
55:28: Bear in mind I'd never even earned $50,000 let alone 100,000.
55:31: I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll do it.
55:33: Yeah.
55:33: Had no clue how I was gonna do it.
55:36: But there's power in a pinky promise.
55:37: And then by the November, he was like, so have you done TikTok?
55:41: And I was like, no, no.
55:42: No, I haven't though.
55:43: And, so he was like, right, I'm gonna hold you to account.
55:46: And then when we got back, we did this little group accountability where we would all check in to make sure we've done our posts.
55:51: And I mean, I can give you tactics and things for TikTok if you like.
55:55: I can tell you like how I've structured what I've done, but I, I mean, do you want me to do that?
56:00: Do you want me to give some tips and tricks?
56:02: Yeah, for sure.
56:03: Yeah, yeah, I think for sure.
56:04: That'd be great a lot of the audience would like that.
56:07: You know how we all talk about writing to market, and how everybody can teach you how to write to market?
56:12: Well, you need to reel to TikTok, right?
56:15: Like, you actually need to do the same methodology as writing to market, but on TikTok.
56:21: It's an algorithm, which means it has certain wants, certain likes, certain things that work.
56:26: So, I just applied my deconstruction method, but to TikTok videos.
56:31: So I went and looked at all the Best selling videos, right?
56:34: The viral videos.
56:36: Anything over 500, I'd go and look at, well, why is it working?
56:39: What did it do?
56:40: What was in the first frame?
56:42: What was the hook?
56:43: Was there a linguistic thing?
56:44: There's a ton of juxtapositions in videos that go viral.
56:47: There's a ton of conflict in that main first hook.
56:50: there's something unexpected.
56:52: It's just copywriting, but in a video and on a really short number of word scale.
56:58: There were certain things like movement in, in those initial videos, or, you know, we went through this period of slideshows, right?
57:04: Like, it's always gonna change, it's always adapting, it's always evolving.
57:08: But that same methodology of break down what is working, and I don't always just look at author videos or reader videos that have gone viral.
57:17: I look at any industry viral videos because you can apply something from a different Industry, you can bend that to your own genre, your own niche.
57:28: And so I, that's what I do, and that's what I've always done.
57:31: And I, I'm lucky.
57:33: I go viral a lot, but it, it's, you just have to turn it into a game.
57:36: That's what I did.
57:36: I turned it into a game, and I am number one competition, and I don't like losing.
57:41: So, that's, that's basically what I did.
57:43: And also, like, I'm very comfortable on camera.
57:47: That helps.
57:47: Like, I do, like, if you If you are not comfortable on camera, don't do TikTok.
57:50: Like, just don't.
57:51: Find another method or do slideshows only.
57:54: That's a great way of using TikTok if you don't like your face on camera.
57:58: But like, I, yeah, I think it's, I think if you think you might like being on camera, you, you absolutely need to give it a go.
58:05: But if you are like super shy, super awkward on camera, don't do it.
58:09: It's just not gonna be worth your time.
58:11: And I know that's probably brutal to say that, but oh well.
58:14: I'm gonna use your competitive strength, maybe to our advantage here just a little bit because we had Kate Hall on the podcast to talk about TikTok recently.
58:22: She gave us some really juicy details.
58:24: So, I wanna know, with your, that face cut cause she told us some stuff, you know, that was, that was pretty good.
58:29: It's pretty good.
58:30: But like, if you're gonna, if you are, OK, I'm, forgive the joke, but you're gonna, you're gonna do some face content on On TikTok, like what is, what does that look like in terms of like, if you can provide maybe a few examples of like, is it you just talking to the camera in a more like casual way?
58:47: Are you like some of the things that I know Kate mentioned was like, essentially telling the story of your book from a first person point of view.
58:54: She had, she had one of those that was, it was actually pretty entertaining.
58:58: Like, what are some examples of that type of content, cause I think when for some authors in the audience, it's a little ephemeral and they're kind of not sure, like when you say face content, what does that mean?
59:08: Like when I'm talking to the camera, what am I doing?
59:11: I don't know if you have some examples to share.
59:13: Yeah, I might have to open my TikTok to give you specifics, which I'm happy to do, but basically, don't listen to what anybody says and only do what brings you joy.
59:21: Right?
59:21: So, like, for me, what is joyful on camera is behaving like a twat, basically.
59:27: yeah, I'm not kidding.
59:28: I'm sorry, my son's just called me.
59:30: But yeah, basically, behaving like a bit of a knob on camera and trying to make people laugh is pretty much like my main modus operandi.
59:38: But, so, I try and find ways that I can pull silly faces or do things that are really close to The bone on what might get me a violation on TikTok.
59:47: So I like knelt, yeah, I like knelt down in one, and I'm like, has it really come to like me?
59:53: Is this what Saic readers want me to do to get them to buy their book, and then I knelt down.
59:56: And like, obviously I'm tensing, like, my guns, and so all the girls are like, you know, like, you know, going wild and feral over it, and I'm like, I, I like go to my wife, like, am I allowed to post this?
1:00:05: And she's like, fuck's sake, yes, fine.
1:00:08: But, yeah, so that's, that's basically what I do is, like, I get that there are lots of methods for breaking down the books and breaking down the stories, but I really think that you have to do what is easiest for you, and usually what's easiest is what's most joyful.
1:00:23: So for me, it is doing, I very rarely talk to camera.
1:00:27: Like, some people are really good at talking to camera for like 60 seconds, 3 minutes, 10 minutes.
1:00:32: And, and getting that longevity on the watch time.
1:00:35: For me, people are coming on there to see what silly, stupid shit I'm gonna do next, basically.
1:00:41: So, I have a couple of rules.
1:00:43: I always have, what am I trying to say?
1:00:46: I always promote my books.
1:00:47: Lots of people are like, 0, 80/20.
1:00:49: No, fuck that.
1:00:50: Every single post is about my books.
1:00:51: I don't have time to not promote my books.
1:00:53: And I,, well, OK, so that's, oh, this is what I mean about close to the bone.
1:01:00: So for example, I put on there, so I don't know if you can see, I've got like a slip case with books.
1:01:06: This is really naughty.
1:01:07: You're gonna have to put like an 18 on this.
1:01:09: But I basically was like, Len move, sick lesbian move to get my Saic romanticy books out.
1:01:15: And then like I'm there struggling to like pull them out of the case, and then I use my two middle fingers, pull them out.
1:01:21: I.
1:01:23: No, but that's your, like, you know your audience, right?
1:01:25: Like they're spicy.
1:01:27: You gotta do what you gotta do.
1:01:29: Right?
1:01:29: But that is, but that's what I mean, like, that is spicy AF.
1:01:33: It's completely on brand for me to break all the rules, and it talks about my books.
1:01:38: And I saw some guy, I can't even remember what the video was.
1:01:41: It was not a bookish video at all.
1:01:43: It was some like nerdy something or other in some other industry.
1:01:47: And so that's, that's an example.
1:01:49: What else?
1:01:50: And then I do.
1:01:51: A lot of face to camera, and it's, and one of them was like, when the masked lesbian vampire is all, what do you wanna eat?
1:01:58: And then like I show my next book and I just like stare at the camera knowingly because it's like, like me like the princess, right, that's what you wanna eat.
1:02:06: So most of mine are like really quite, you know, rude.
1:02:12: But, it's in line with the audience, and I think that's what matters.
1:02:15: Yeah, exactly.
1:02:16: Sometimes I will take, Sometimes I will take like hook formats and talk about the stories, but quite often, and I think this is unique to my genre, maybe, my readers often struggle to find books.
1:02:31: This was, that's like my own personal journey.
1:02:33: They really, really struggle to find books and I'm really sorry, like, there aren't many adult fantasy books for queer women or, or, or queer Suffolk people.
1:02:44: And so.
1:02:45: A lot of my posts that go virals are just the ones that say, like, when you're looking for, because that is what my readers are struggling.
1:02:53: And so, it's a little bit about knowing your readers, knowing your niche, and, yes, playing close to the bone, but, you know, also, I'm not afraid to, like, make a menace out of myself.
1:03:03: So I just reposted one that got nearly 100,000 views.
1:03:07: And, like, I don't know if you guys can see, but, like, it's literally me, like, with My face so close to the camera, and that's what I mean, like, and I think, I think some of this is about authenticity, right?
1:03:20: Like, and that's why I said earlier, what is, what is joyful to you.
1:03:24: I have no shame, literally none.
1:03:27: I will happily make a fool out of myself if it gets a laugh, and, and I think that comes through, people get that I, like, they can't, I was.
1:03:37: Bullied so badly in school that now nobody can bully me cos I haven't got any shame, cos, so, and I think it's like that kind of ethos on, on videos, like, if you are being your truest self, people will tag along with you rather than being like, that's awkward.
1:03:51: Cos people could look at that and be like, what is she doing?
1:03:54: But.
1:03:54: Yeah, the, I, I heard this, that the best way to make friends is to be friendly.
1:03:59: And so to be authentic like that and be comfortable in yourself.
1:04:03: is that you're projecting yourself as like a friendly, likable person.
1:04:07: Like you can, I'm not gonna, you know, be an asshole to you, that sort of thing.
1:04:12: And there's that sort of parasocial relationship that happens on social media, but it's still really powerful.
1:04:17: And I actually got to experience it at Author Nation, cause I got hugs from people I don't know, who are like, because I do the webinar, and I, you know, and that's the webinars and stuff like that.
1:04:26: Like, I love your webinars.
1:04:27: Like, you don't know me, but I know.
1:04:29: know you and that kind of stuff.
1:04:30: Like, I'm sure you get some of that, probably, you probably get more of that than I do, but you don't realize, I don't think we realize you like you put yourself out there and like, yeah, be authentic, be who you are, and people are going to gravitate towards you.
1:04:43: And that's just, that's like part of being human.
1:04:45: It's not a gimmick.
1:04:46: It's not like some sort of thing where you're tricking them by being authentic because you can't do that.
1:04:52: You can't trick people into thinking you're authentic.
1:04:55: And then they buy all your books.
1:04:56: No, you are authentic, and then it's like, it's like they're buying books from a friend, sort of thing.
1:05:03: Does that, is that it?
1:05:04: Am I, am I over target there or am I?
1:05:07: No, I think you're absolutely bang on and it's as you were talking, I was like, oh yeah, so one of the things that I have realized about my audience is that my audience is full of neurodiverse people, a huge population of autistic and ADHD people in particular, lots of also.
1:05:24: Dyslexic readers, but in particular, autism and ADHD.
1:05:28: And it's, it's kind of through that, that I, well, and also through my son who has ADHD, that I've sort of realized that I am definitely not neurotypical.
1:05:36: And what happened is, I was so authentic in the text that people with, you know, sort of shorter attention spans have been able to read my book.
1:05:44: I must get 3 or 4 messages a week saying, I've never been able to read.
1:05:49: I could not put your books down.
1:05:50: I've read your entire back catalog in 10 days.
1:05:53: And, yeah, literally.
1:05:54: I get this a lot.
1:05:55: And I think it's the way in which I write because I am very hyperactive, and I have, you know, clean, short sentences.
1:06:03: I will mess around with the white space in order to force people to read through my story.
1:06:10: And so I write extremely fast-paced books in fantasy, which is not allowed, but that's what I do.
1:06:17: And so I, I, but that's authentic to me, and that's what I love reading.
1:06:22: And so I think it has Appealed to this huge group of readers who've not been able to, A, feel seen in their queerness, but also feel like they can, something can hold their attention.
1:06:35: So, yeah, I've converted a ton of people into fantasy, a ton of people into reading, like, it's wild.
1:06:42: Well, I think they've said in, when you look at all the different social medias, TikTok is the one where authenticity matters.
1:06:49: You don't have to have your hair done and your makeup done, and you don't, you You know, you don't have to have all the face.
1:06:55: Sometimes it's, it's literally like the more authentic you are, the better it does because that's what those, that's what that viewership in general as a TikTok likes.
1:07:07: But then when you're looking for your audience, and everybody has to know their audience, like you have figured, like your exact audience likes these things.
1:07:16: The kind of humor that you put out there is meant for your particular audience, and every person listening has an audience.
1:07:23: There's a group of people that would enjoy your content.
1:07:27: And if you write sci-fi or it doesn't matter what you write, there's probably an audience that you can speak to with authenticity, which is the important part, especially on, and I think a little bit on reels too, like TikTok and reels, they really do enjoy that, like you're just being real.
1:07:46: Like I just picked up my phone and started talking and, and, and here comes the story and like here, here comes the thing.
1:07:53: , I, can we circle back to the theme of this?
1:07:58: Because I think there's an inherent risk in that, and that's why people are afraid to do it, because there is risk in being yourself, because what if people don't like you for who you are?
1:08:07: And so this is another thing that I do on TikTok, and this I'm not necessarily telling people to do, but I love it when I get haters.
1:08:17: So I have replied to, so I have this one.
1:08:21: Star review, that is by far and away my favorite review I have ever received, ever.
1:08:27: And it's a one star review, and it says, basically, Pis or N.
1:08:33: They didn't even write the O, and it is literally like, it is the best thing.
1:08:38: Like, a few months later, somebody replied to it and was like, yeah, that's the point.
1:08:44: So I've got two screenshots of this review, one of like the original review.
1:08:48: One of the review with the reply.
1:08:50: That MF has garnered me hundreds of thousands of views.
1:08:55: I have gone viral probably 6 or 7 or 8 times with variations on this one-star review thing, and I am just like, I will run with that till the day I die, because one person's trash is another man's treasure, right?
1:09:11: And I am very happy to put you on.
1:09:14: My books, because by putting you off, I'm gonna be getting tighter and tighter and closer and closer to my audience.
1:09:20: But you have to have resilience.
1:09:23: You've got to have emotional resilience for that, because nobody is impenetrable.
1:09:27: It does hurt to get hate.
1:09:29: It does hurt to get, you know, people making awful comments to you or saying that your book's rubbish when you've spent all year working on it or whatever.
1:09:36: But actually, just turn that into lemonade, right?
1:09:40: Because you can.
1:09:41: Right, well, yeah, your readers are feeling the same, like we're all human.
1:09:46: And so your readers are probably, they have that same experience of being afraid of like, people not liking them, and then seeing somebody that they can relate to in some way out there and just being themselves is there's an Attractive force there, you know, that it's like, hey, they're doing, they're being brave in who they are, because your readers will plug in will feel the same way.
1:10:07: I think there's a lot of power in that.
1:10:08: And like you said, like, yes, it is risky to be yourself on social media, because I know there's plenty of people who don't like me.
1:10:14: But you're right, you have to leverage that.
1:10:17: I was at Author Nation, and you all know I snuck away to Johnny Truant's, why am I gonna say seminar?
1:10:22: I'm so tired, y'all, but I snuck away to Johnny Truant's talk, and I asked him at the end because of course I had to, you know, ask a question.
1:10:30: I'm like, Johnny, I write dark epic fantasy, very highbrow, lyrical prose, all that stuff, and I've been trying to do face content, but when I open my mouth, I'm a hood bitch.
1:10:39: I'm like, there's a dichotom there's a dissonance there.
1:10:42: I'm like, how do I bridge the gap between who I really am?
1:10:47: Oh, lean into that.
1:10:49: Oh my God.
1:10:50: And that's what he was saying.
1:10:52: He's saying the readers are not expecting you to be this highbrow, highfalutin fay lord.
1:10:57: I'm like put John.
1:10:59: Seriously, the very first thing I said about TikTok was, was juxtapositions.
1:11:04: You are the juxtaposition.
1:11:06: I would lean all the way into that, you know, like when you're a hood girl, but you write literary prose like this, and then like a quote, do you know what I mean, like, boom, boom, boom, like, you know, or, or like where, when you're, when you're a hood girl but like your romance is.
1:11:21: Beautiful.
1:11:21: I mean, that's terrible.
1:11:22: I'm doing this on the fly, but do you know what I mean?
1:11:24: Like there are so, I mean, I could twist that 700 different ways.
1:11:27: Like she's like, you just gave me material, girl.
1:11:30: You're saying you have all this flowery prose, which is great, totally awesome.
1:11:34: But like, now I want to hear it.
1:11:36: Now I want to see it from that, you know, you said it first, the hood bitch sort of like, I want to hear it.
1:11:41: It's OK.
1:11:42: You can say it.
1:11:43: I know, I know.
1:11:44: But between Sasha and Johnny and Kate, I'm sensing a real theme, which is odd because social media for so long has been about everything's fake and scripted, especially on Instagram, girl, don't get me started.
1:11:56: But in the author community, I think the real theme is being authentic and connecting with people from who you are versus trying to put up this instant facade of this life you don't have, and please don't Google.
1:12:08: My house because y'all do not know what to know where I really live.
1:12:12: It ain't fancy.
1:12:13: So, you know.
1:12:14: All the transitions as well that you could do, like dress as your like high fancy character and then boom, but the author looks like this, do you know what I mean?
1:12:22: Like there's so many transitions in musics in there, like you are a gold mine of potential.
1:12:28: I mean, if the author doesn't even wear pants most of the day.
1:12:32: So I think that's pretty that that right there is probably for all authors, especially like if you, if you are at home just in your sweatpants, they people, I think people do have like, readers have like an idea of like, oh, being an author must be so like, you know, glamorous a bit.
1:12:49: And it's like, nope, nah, I wrote in my bed today because I couldn't crawl out of it.
1:12:57: Now, now, I know, like one thing, and maybe with this authenticity bit, we're kind of, there's, but there's two audiences on TikTok.
1:13:05: There's author talk and there's book talk.
1:13:07: And obviously, you want to find your readers and author talk is more like, from what I know, and Sasha, you tell me if I'm wrong, but like, it's authors talking to authors.
1:13:15: And then over here in book talk, it's readers talking to readers, but authors can be in that conversation.
1:13:21: That's probably where you're gonna find readers more.
1:13:24: So how do you, you approach that, or is it just very like, talk about your books and the readers will come?
1:13:30: So I have no idea what Orthodox is, never been on it, have no clue.
1:13:34: and I don't use TikTok as a user.
1:13:38: So, I use and abuse TikTok.
1:13:41: I am extremely focused with what I do on there.
1:13:45: I don't doom scroll.
1:13:47: I go on there, you, you, like, so I am probably the.
1:13:51: 1% of people, and because I don't feel the, you know how people get hooked on, like, scrolling, and I don't do that, and I don't know why.
1:14:02: I think that's something to do with, like, my strengths or whatever.
1:14:05: But basically, I go onto TikTok and I will scroll, but I am hyperfocused, hyper fixating on looking for a video that I can turn into a, a, a marketing video for me.
1:14:18: So I'm not there watching for content, for other people's content.
1:14:22: I'm not there watching, you know, I mean, the one exception to that is I have noticed quite a high population of cat videos in my feed, which probably tells you that I paused too long on them.
1:14:34: But yeah, I have no idea.
1:14:35: I don't know what orthodox is, cause I've never gone looking for it.
1:14:38: And in terms of book talk, occasionally I will do a search, like, if I wanna do, like, a, I don't know, like, A mafia romance or a stalker romance, I might go and have a look at a few videos just to see what books are being recommended, to see if that marries with Kalytics, if it marries with Publisher Rocket, if it marries with the bestseller list.
1:14:55: But, yeah, I don't really use it.
1:14:57: So, in terms of, like, my usage of TikTok, I go on, I scroll purely looking for hooks, for good trending sounds, for trending, like, action, or, or a trending style, for want of a better word.
1:15:12: And Then once I've found it, I will make my 2 or 3 videos, usually in one go, and then I put them into drafts, and then I only go back on to post, and I stay on the app for 2 to 3 minutes, and in which those 2 to 3 minutes, I will reply to comments, and I will then go back to the for you page, and I will continue to look for, can I find anything else to use for tomorrow?
1:15:34: And I don't use it for any other purpose at all.
1:15:36: And I think that is why I still have my sanity intact after doing.
1:15:40: TikTok for 2 years, 3 videos a day, every day for nearly 600 and however many days it is without fail.
1:15:47: No, no day off ever.
1:15:50: And always about your book, always about every single video.
1:15:55: Yeah, yeah, right.
1:15:56: And that's the, I, I like that you, you make it about that because a lot of authors have been told you not to promote your own books.
1:16:03: Like even in, I know, I don't get it.
1:16:05: I've had, I've had to coach authors on this.
1:16:07: For, like, no, like there's a place in your newsletter for the Christmas card where you're telling everybody how your week went and all that stuff and all that cute stuff, but like, it's about you, man.
1:16:17: Like you've got to, like, your books have to be there.
1:16:19: They can't otherwise, you know, have you seen Stephen Bartlett on Diary of a CEO ever promote a reel that is anything other than his podcast?
1:16:29: Do you see James Dyson talking about other Hoovers?
1:16:33: Do you, do you know?
1:16:34: You know what I mean?
1:16:35: Like, what is this nonsense that people are spouting about not talking about your books?
1:16:39: What a load of crap.
1:16:40: Like, it's just the most bizarre thing I've ever heard.
1:16:43: Like if you want to sell books, you need to be relentlessly selling your book.
1:16:48: 1 + 1 equals 2.
1:16:50: Well, and that brings me to kind of thinking more about TikTok.
1:16:53: Are you, do you have a TikTok shop?
1:16:56: And would you, if you don't, would you be interested, now that you have the warehouse, you have the ability to.
1:17:02: To ship as quickly as you need to.
1:17:04: Yeah, I do have a TikTok shop, so my TikTok shops of, so this year I think I've done.
1:17:11: 230,000 British pounds on my TikTok, on my Shopify, of which 30,000 pounds is TikTok.
1:17:18: So, would I recommend it?
1:17:20: Well, who's gonna say no to 300,000 pounds?
1:17:22: Nobody.
1:17:22: It is, it is extremely difficult because, so of my three videos, if I'm, if I'm in a TikTok shop phase, I'm also doing two more shop videos.
1:17:33: I find those energetically much more grueling.
1:17:36: I don't know why, I haven't.
1:17:38: Worked that out yet.
1:17:39: I think it's maybe because it's repetitive and it's exactly the same, more or less the same thing.
1:17:43: You're like boxing, you're showing the books, you're talking about the books, and I, as much as I'm not adaptable, I do like new and different.
1:17:49: So I think that's why I like TikTok cause everything is always different.
1:17:53: But the other thing with TikTok shop is they have a lot of rules, a lot of rules, and it is very easy to violate those rules.
1:18:02: I have had multiple books banned off of TikTok shop because other people have reported them.
1:18:08: They've said they're too spicy, which I think is utterly outrageous.
1:18:13: And I actually think it's because of the type of spice, because you'll see books that are much darker than mine still sold on TikTok.
1:18:20: So I'm trying, and I'm not gonna get political here, but that's my feeling.
1:18:24: Whether or not I'm right, I can't say, but I do find it interesting that it keeps being my books that are, that are taken off.
1:18:30: So, I have lost a little bit of love for TikTok.
1:18:32: Shop because I feel a bit like I've been beaten because I can't, I literally can't get my new books on there.
1:18:39: We're trying again to kind of remove content.
1:18:42: So basically, it syncs with Shopify, and so it pulls all the Shopify data across.
1:18:46: So anything on your Shopify page will go on to TikTok.
1:18:50: So if you've got trigger warnings on your book page, they'll be ported into TikTok, and then your book will be banned.
1:18:56: So we, we've now literally this week, we've been taking all the trigger warnings off.
1:18:59: And putting them onto a separate page, like a, a one page type thing, and we're trying to change up the content on the book's individual page to then try again.
1:19:07: So I still have some books on there, and I do post, but, I, I do find it difficult.
1:19:13: Also, you've got very tight shipping timelines.
1:19:16: They're often gonna discount your book without your permission.
1:19:20: They often like, they'll, they'll suck you in and be like, oh, you know, free shipping.
1:19:24: And then it's like, well, hang on a minute, because I'm.
1:19:27: Paying for the shipping and it's all very, I don't find it very transparent and I find it do do find it quite difficult.
1:19:33: However, it's made 300,000 and who is gonna say no to 300,000?
1:19:36: Like no one's gonna say no to 300,000.
1:19:38: So we are trying, but for me, Shopify and bringing people genuinely direct is always going to be the heart and soul of what I'm doing, at least for now.
1:19:48: Yeah, that's interesting because, have you done anything with live selling on like TikTok Live at all?
1:19:54: Yes, so Adam Beswick is like the, we call, so Adam Beswick is a really dear friend of mine, and I call him the QVC book bitch because basically he is like the queen of selling live, like it is astonishing what he can do.
1:20:09: I tend to sign books more live and then I will sell by default cos occasionally I'll personalize one, or I'll show them if you order whilst I'm live, I will.
1:20:20: Show you, you know, what I'm doing, or what freebies you're gonna get.
1:20:24: But my best lives are when I'm not even really in the warehouse.
1:20:29: So, like, I did a live this week where we did 4 announcements.
1:20:33: One was the free book that I told you about earlier that we were giving people.
1:20:37: One was the fact that we are gonna do another Kickstarter, cause I run massive Kickstarters.
1:20:41: And then another one was the fact that the special editions from the last Kickstarter are finally gonna be.
1:20:46: For pre-order.
1:20:47: And then the big secret was that we're doing another book box next year.
1:20:52: Like, we, all we told people is that the book box theme was Summer of Sin.
1:20:57: They're gonna get not safe for work art, a brand new story with an exclusive cover in it, and there'll be a spicy toy in there.
1:21:03: And we sold, like, 5000 worth of book boxes in, like, the space of this live.
1:21:07: It was feral.
1:21:09: So, I really genuinely think that live selling.
1:21:12: It is good if you like the camera.
1:21:16: If you don't like the camera, you're not gonna sell because you have to be so personable and you have to be willing to say, you know, this is the product.
1:21:25: This is what you're getting.
1:21:26: Like, can you be smiley and perky about that and genuine and authentic about it?
1:21:30: Like, if you can't be, you know, if you carry any shame, you know, oh, this is my book and oh they're not gonna, you, you, they're not gonna sell it.
1:21:38: They're not gonna buy.
1:21:38: It.
1:21:39: They're just not.
1:21:39: So, you know, I don't particularly like hand selling.
1:21:43: Like, I don't, I really struggle with in-person reader events.
1:21:46: This is a wild dichotomy of me.
1:21:48: I will gladly get on stage in front of 2000 authors and give a keynote.
1:21:53: Will I stand behind a desk and talk one on one to a reader?
1:21:55: No, I fucking won't.
1:21:57: I hate it.
1:21:58: I hate it.
1:21:59: It terrifies me.
1:22:00: I, I did an in-person event and I threw up at the end of it from exhaustion.
1:22:05: Yeah, yeah, literally throw up.
1:22:07: So have you thought, so I have a, I have a pitch for you here, right, because we went book funnel was at Reader Nation this year, right, which is the first, oh, yeah, I know, I know, wait for the pitch.
1:22:18: So we were at Reader Nation, our first reader facing event we've ever done.
1:22:22: Obviously, we've been at many author events and that sort of thing.
1:22:24: We had booths there and everything.
1:22:26: but it was great, because we got to interact with readers and being book funnel, it's, it's, it's a different dynamic.
1:22:33: And we were like giving away free books, like bookmarks on them with links to like bundles of free books that we had assembled with with authors in various genres and that sort of thing.
1:22:41: And it was interesting because readers would come up.
1:22:44: And the conversation would kind of go like, hey, have you heard about Book Funnel before?
1:22:47: And they'd be like, No, I haven't.
1:22:49: And we'd be like, oh well, you know, here's what we're doing.
1:22:51: And like, so all these books are free.
1:22:53: Like, oh yeah, they're free, like you have them.
1:22:55: It's a much lower pressure situation than trying to like sell your books in person.
1:23:01: And I know like Becca.
1:23:02: Simon has talked about this too, like, if you go to events, be prepared, just like, and she's trying to encourage people to give your books away, because it's lower pressure, it's more relaxing.
1:23:10: But we've talked about the idea of having book funnel ambassadors.
1:23:13: And so bringing authors who use Book funnel behind the table for like an hour, and Sasha.
1:23:19: I just threw up in the back of my mouth.
1:23:25: Here's the thing, but here's the thing, right?
1:23:28: I.
1:23:29: I am, like, so normal, and I find it really, like, maybe this is, like, the neurodiverse element.
1:23:38: I, when people, I wanna be really careful because I would not have a career if it wasn't for my readers, right?
1:23:45: I love them.
1:23:47: I appreciate them.
1:23:48: I write Daily gratitude, and 9 times out of 10, it is the readers that I'm being.
1:23:52: Grateful for every single day.
1:23:54: When you reach a certain point, they put you on a pedestal.
1:24:00: They will cry on you.
1:24:01: They will want you to hug them.
1:24:02: I'm not much of a hugger.
1:24:05: I, you know, I don't mind the selfies because I often did that, like, in the, in the author community.
1:24:11: But like, I don't know, I get very awkward.
1:24:14: I don't know how to respond.
1:24:16: To people when they are feeling a lot of feelings, basically.
1:24:20: I don't know what to do with that, which is why I love being on stage and like pushing out all the energy and like why I love being behind the camera, because I can perform to camera.
1:24:30: When I have somebody in front of me, I freeze up and I don't know what to say.
1:24:35: My wife laughed, laughed at me, cos she's like, you are.
1:24:39: A party, you are an Olympic sport for awkward.
1:24:42: Like, she just, like, will watch me being really super awkward.
1:24:46: Like, it is, I often have to take her places because I'm so uncomfortable.
1:24:50: And the minute I know somebody, I'm like, yeah, you know, but I just can't, I, I struggle so much.
1:24:55: And then when you're having to meet new people, new people, new people, back to back to back to back to back to back, I end up throwing up from exhaustion.
1:25:03: So I just, by the way, yeah, I think it's just not for me.
1:25:07: And that's, well, and, and that's, that's the thing too, is like, you need to know, like, if that, I think there's some authors who, I, I would encourage every author to like, try something new and step out of their comfort zone, because you might not know.
1:25:20: Maybe you try something, you're like, I don't know, and then it works for you and it's great, and you've, you suddenly realize that you feel really comfortable, but you've done that, and it's not.
1:25:28: Well, and the other part of that is like, where are your readers?
1:25:33: So I have done 3 in-person events since I started Ruby.
1:25:38: The first one was a queer one, and I was fine at that event.
1:25:42: The second one was just a reader event, a romance kind of reader-ish event, and that's the one that I threw up.
1:25:48: On, because it was so much having to convert people, so much having to deal with their judgment because it wasn't straight romance.
1:25:58: It was so exhausting on a hand-selling basis that I was like, I don't know if I can ever do that again.
1:26:05: Then I went and did Rare, which was incredible.
1:26:08: Like, it was It was such an amazing event.
1:26:10: The organizers were incredible.
1:26:12: I would never have anything sort of negative to say about it.
1:26:15: But my readers weren't there.
1:26:16: I had a handful of readers who had, by coincidence, got a ticket.
1:26:21: And so, and actually one of them is like somebody who I adore, who I've met multiple times.
1:26:24: So actually I was fine.
1:26:25: That wasn't exhausting.
1:26:26: It was wonderful.
1:26:27: But there was like an entire row.
1:26:29: 1620 romance authors.
1:26:32: There were 3 Safik authors in the whole of the event.
1:26:36: My readers were not there, and those big in-person events are for big, big, big authors, the Anna Huang, the Lee Rivers, the, you know, whoever those massive authors are, that's where those readers are just queuing for hours, and then you get the scraps of what's left over.
1:26:53: It is not a good use of my time to go to those events.
1:26:55: If it was a really big queer romance.
1:26:58: Or queer book event, I might consider doing it.
1:27:01: But I think you also have to think about, are your readers actually there?
1:27:06: Like, if you write science fiction and fantasy, maybe you should be going to a Comic Con instead.
1:27:11: Maybe that's a better place for you than, like, just a general book event.
1:27:15: And I, I genuinely think the most successful reader events are niched down.
1:27:20: So go to a romance, a rare event if you're a romance writer, go to a queer event if you're a queer author, go to a comic.
1:27:27: If you're a SFF author, you know, yeah, no, that that that that makes a lot of sense.
1:27:31: And I'm by no means trying to pressure you whatsoever.
1:27:34: But that does, that doesn't make sense.
1:27:36: I had the privilege of, of speaking with, with Johnny B.
1:27:40: Truant at the end of Reader Nation.
1:27:42: And he gave me some insight and I, and it kind of verifies exactly what you're saying.
1:27:47: Like you, you might go to one reader event, and it's, like that one you described, it's not the right vibe.
1:27:54: It's not like you.
1:27:55: Readers aren't there, or even, even if like your readers aren't there, like readers who are open to what you're writing aren't there.
1:28:03: And there's the, the concept of being the only book on the shelf is one thing that I think works for some authors.
1:28:09: Go set, like you said, to a comic con where you're probably the only author there, but there's people who, you know, if they're there at a Comic-Con, they're probably interested in sci-fi and fantasy.
1:28:19: And so it's a natural fit, or find a reader event that is niched down to.
1:28:24: Your target audience, where even if it's not your readers there, you know that the readers they're interested in what you're writing.
1:28:31: So I think that that's something that's a decision you have to make, like in the planning stage if you're you're wanting to go down that route, but, and also your strengths pressure you.
1:28:40: I'm not trying to pressure you at all.
1:28:42: You keep saying that, but I'm now feeling the pressure.
1:28:45: No, no, no, it was an idea we had because obviously getting to talk to readers in that context was kind of a new thing for our team.
1:28:53: And the fact that it was low pressure and we were just, we were giving books.
1:28:57: So what we talked about was having authors come to the Book Funnel booth and obviously getting the opportunity to promote their own books there, probably just handing out free print codes or something like that, so that it's a low pressure.
1:29:06: We want to keep it low pressure.
1:29:07: We Book Funnel doesn't want to be selling books at the Book Funnel booth.
1:29:10: But then on our part, maybe somewhat selfishly, here you've got an author who's telling a reader that, you know, you can get my book through Book Funnel, and that would mean a lot to us.
1:29:19: And obviously, we would want that in every.
1:29:21: Possible genre under the sun.
1:29:24: Yeah, 100%.
1:29:25: Maybe you need like a reader event team.
1:29:28: Yeah, no, exactly.
1:29:29: Like we need to like hire a dozen more people.
1:29:30: Damon, if you, if you're hearing this, or Richie, I'm sorry, Richie, I know you will be listening to this, but, but yes, reader events, I think we need to focus on not a dozen people all at once, right?
1:29:40: But I think you can get there.
1:29:42: But yeah, no, it was a lot of fun.
1:29:43: It was a lot of fun.
1:29:44: But I can see how for some authors, that's, that style of event is maybe not conducive to.
1:29:51: Right, to being a positive experience.
1:29:53: Well, I think too is really important is like Sasha, in-person events are really hard and they're not great, and that we were talking about connecting with your readers, that probably comes through unless you're at a place where like a queer event for you where you're very comfortable, everybody's there looking for your kind of book.
1:30:11: It's very on market, and some people thrive on going to in-person events and they Go to all different kinds.
1:30:18: We had Jason and Leah Bond on, gosh, quite a while ago now.
1:30:22: And they love going to in-person events.
1:30:26: That's pretty much all of their marketing strategy is going to places within driving distance.
1:30:31: So, I think the, the real thing to know is whether or not there is no one size fits all for this business.
1:30:39: And if you are not being, like if you are not able to You know, do the thing you like.
1:30:46: I mean, nobody, not everybody likes marketing in general.
1:30:49: A lot of people really hate marketing in general.
1:30:52: Going on TikTok that doesn't do it for you, do something else, you know, and go to an in-person event.
1:30:57: Maybe that is for you, like that kind of thing.
1:31:00: I think it's the, the big thing is that there's not a one size fits all.
1:31:03: Yeah, yeah, I couldn't agree more.
1:31:06: It's like, you know, there are, I spoke to a couple of authors doing it different ways.
1:31:09: Like, one was doing like 18 in-person signings in a year and I literally died at the thought of that.
1:31:17: And then another one does really small meet and greets, like, takes their readers to dinner, and I also equally died.
1:31:24: I was like, but I would have to generate, I'd have to be generating all that conversation.
1:31:28: Like, I, I would fall.
1:31:29: Sleep in my dinner from the exhaustion of trying to generate that conversation.
1:31:34: But then if I was ever to be traditionally published, you know, I look at people like VE Schwab, who often gets interviewed on stage, and I'm like, that I could do, like that I could do.
1:31:45: And then maybe a signing afterwards where you know, like they're all literally your readers, but you have to get through them quickly.
1:31:52: That I could do, but mostly because of that.
1:31:55: Interview breaking the ice bit because I love being on stage, but like that being behind the table is the problem for me.
1:32:02: It's not the cold sale.
1:32:03: The cold sale could be more of what it is.
1:32:06: Like if you are on stage and they're there to listen to you, that audience is hot.
1:32:11: Like they're there for you.
1:32:13: They're ready to, like, you're just signing and, and greeting.
1:32:16: But if you have that cold sale of like, come buy my books as they walk by.
1:32:22: Because I have a different challenge.
1:32:23: You have made me click in my brain.
1:32:25: I have no relationship strengths.
1:32:27: Like in terms of Clifton strengths, I've got no blue relationship building strengths.
1:32:33: All I have are yellow influencing strengths.
1:32:36: So all I have skills wise is to influence, which is very much standing on stage pushing influence out.
1:32:44: It's not building that one on one relationship.
1:32:46: That makes so much sense to me.
1:32:48: Yeah.
1:32:49: No, and, and I like to, to kind of draw a comparison here, I'm sure there are plenty of authors who go to tons of in-person events where they're having to do the cold sales pitch, right?
1:32:58: And they're totally fine with that.
1:32:59: And then somebody tells them, hey, what about TikTok?
1:33:01: and they throw up in the back.
1:33:03: Yeah, exactly.
1:33:05: Everybody's different.
1:33:07: I didn't want to introduce that whole thing to.
1:33:09: I really didn't want to put pressure on you.
1:33:11: I was more wanting to talk about that concept here on the podcast, but that's, it's good to know you're.
1:33:16: Strengths.
1:33:17: Yeah, lean and double down and lean into those.
1:33:21: If I were, I was giving a bunch of one on ones when we were there and getting to sit down with authors.
1:33:26: There's one author in particular, who we were, she, she came there, she's like, I, people are telling me I've got to use Book Funnel for this, that and the other, and like, I'm not using Book Funnel to the fullest.
1:33:34: And I'm going through all the normal stuff that we tend to do first, which is like talking about group promos and talking about reader magnets and all this other stuff.
1:33:41: Eventually got around to, and this seemed kind of a Lukewarm response and eventually got around to like, OK, well, well, how big is your mailing list?
1:33:47: And it's like 4 or 5000 people.
1:33:49: OK, well, from the conversation we had leading up to that, I wouldn't have known.
1:33:53: Where did you get them at in-person events.
1:33:55: I do like 2 dozen a year.
1:33:59: OMG shocking to me.
1:34:00: Forget everything I just said.
1:34:02: Just keep doing that.
1:34:03: Like, and Book Funnel has some features that can help you.
1:34:05: Like we have some features that can help you augment that thing, but like just do that.
1:34:09: Well you're doing the thing that's working and don't feel.
1:34:11: Like you have to, you don't have to fit the mold of everybody else.
1:34:14: There, there are maybe some things that are kind of non-negotiable in the self-publishing world, like a newsletter.
1:34:20: Yes, but thing to have.
1:34:22: But if that doesn't bring you joy, outsource the writing of it to someone else.
1:34:27: Yes, exactly, exactly, but still worth having, and having that sort of thing.
1:34:32: But otherwise everything else I see is like as optional.
1:34:35: It's kind of like you plug it in and if it's not working, then.
1:34:38: You know, find the thing that does work.
1:34:40: And then when you have a few things that work, like double down on those things as opposed to trying to add more things.
1:34:45: Couldn't agree more.
1:34:46: Now, I think the e-book signing thing because we all at Reader Nation were signing.
1:34:51: And when it hit me, we were going to sign, I had that little throw up moment.
1:34:55: But then when I realized the readers didn't really care about my book, it made things so much.
1:35:00: Better.
1:35:00: I'm like, Yeah, I write Dark epic fantasy.
1:35:02: Here it is.
1:35:02: I'll sign it.
1:35:03: It's free.
1:35:03: And then it just all of the pressure going away of having to like air quotes, my booking.
1:35:09: You just take, yeah.
1:35:12: And I had some really nice conversations.
1:35:14: Yeah, I had some nice conversations with the readers, but it was because I really didn't give a fudge if they got my book or not.
1:35:21: I mean, There was definitely some some good like on, on my, we were on opposite ends of the booth too, so Kelly and Emma were on one side and I was on the other side.
1:35:31: And I've got my sci-fi space marine, you know, whatever nerdy stuff I've got going on.
1:35:36: And they've got the romance on the other side of the table, and there were a few times where like a couple would come by, and, you know, they would get sent to the other side, cause the husband or the boyfriend was there, or one couple walked up, and like, so what's this all about?
1:35:48: I'm like, well, you know, I gave them the spiel, like what it is, and I've, I've kinda, I'm comfortable with that.
1:35:53: I'm, I'm the type of person who is comfortable talking to somebody I don't know.
1:35:57: About my book, that's totally fine for me, is what I've learned.
1:36:00: And obviously, the, the, the wife or the girlfriend would usually be like, they'd hear me explaining it, and you'd see them kind of light up first, but it wasn't because they were interested to be like, he would like that.
1:36:12: And they would be like, here, you need, like, they would be, you know, making him, you know, get the book, that sort of thing.
1:36:19: So every author's going to have like a different dynamic to, like, you know.
1:36:23: You know, and depending on, like you said, the setting, what type of event it is, like what genre, there's so many factors, and you kind of got to be comfortable navigating that a little bit, I think.
1:36:34: Do you know your Clifton strengths?
1:36:36: I do.
1:36:37: I do.
1:36:37: Most of them are green.
1:36:38: OK, interesting.
1:36:40: Yeah, futuristic, strategic.
1:36:42: Those are the two that I, that I, that I really remember.
1:36:45: So there's other ones on there.
1:36:46: Restorative is on there.
1:36:48: That's in my, I think that's in my top five.
1:36:51: Do you guys know your top strengths?
1:36:53: Yeah, yes, and I have no relationship building either.
1:36:56: I have relator, but that's a very particular.
1:37:00: It is, but it's, that should enable you to create really like tight fandoms that feel really like inside your circle.
1:37:09: Yes, yes.
1:37:11: But, and you were saying something earlier that clicked for me, like, and I think this is one of the things about readers is because I'll get emails from readers and they'll be like, Oh, this book changed, and I'm like, they'll be like, this book changed my life and they'll be emotional and it'll make me emotional and I appreciate the words, but at the same time I have to email back like, I'm just a bitch with a laptop.
1:37:28: Like, dude, like that's not necessary.
1:37:33: Outsource it.
1:37:34: Seriously, I, I don't reply to any reader emails anymore because it, it, I, it, it's just too much.
1:37:40: I can't.
1:37:40: I could see that.
1:37:41: And, and Emma, I know you, so I, I can say this because it makes you feel like you have to like be this person.
1:37:48: Well, it doesn't make me feel that way, but a certain part of me is like, OK, they have this expectation of the interaction, but Like, bro, like you're gonna be disappointed.
1:37:57: I would agree with what Sasha said, like, outsource it if you need to, absolutely.
1:38:02: But you are like, you're really having an impact on those people.
1:38:06: Like, I think maybe there's a little bit of imposter syndrome there.
1:38:09: It's like, I don't know.
1:38:10: I know you.
1:38:11: I'm not trying to hear live on the podcast, do a psychoanalysis of you, but As your friend need to break down our Clifton strength, right, but as your friend, I would tell you that like, no, like you're really having an impact on those people, and that's a, a genuine interaction and if you don't feel comfortable with it, yeah, outsource it for sure, but I don't think that I think the fact that you're relatable and you're just, as you say, you know, a bitch with a laptop is makes I wish we could make that our, our little, but, but it, it makes, it makes it even more relatable.
1:38:43: In a way, right, like that there's, there's some meaning to that too.
1:38:47: So anyway, but I mean what Sasha says though, I hope everybody's paying attention to outsource what doesn't, because that's the one thing I've been taking away from this outsource what doesn't bring you joy because there's so much.
1:39:00: There are so many moving wheels, and this is a long game and it will drain pennies.
1:39:04: You don't have to do everything all of the time.
1:39:07: I mean, there will be times when you're getting started where you will have to do some things you may not like to do, but as you're growing, girl, bro, like, give that stuff to somebody else.
1:39:17: So what I was just going to say, my whole life, people are like, Oh, you need to slow down.
1:39:22: You're gonna burn out.
1:39:23: You're gonna burn out.
1:39:24: You're doing too much.
1:39:24: You're going to burn out.
1:39:25: And to be fair, like my top strengths are competition, achiever, strategic.
1:39:30: Earn a significance and then activate us.
1:39:32: So I have a lot of burn out.
1:39:35: We don't burn out like that.
1:39:36: But I don't burn out, but also, I think that I don't burn out because I give everything that I don't like away, and I only do the joyful jobs because that way, like, you don't burn out if you are having fun, right?
1:39:51: Or maybe I shouldn't make that sweeping statement, but to date, in my almost 40 years of life, if I continue to do the things that bring me joy.
1:40:00: And that I get energy pennies from in terms of work.
1:40:03: I haven't run out of energy pennies yet.
1:40:05: Well, I mean, but that's the whole point of Clifton's strengths, lean into what you're good at, what brings you joy, and then the other stuff.
1:40:13: Exactly.
1:40:14: Exactly.
1:40:14: We could keep going.
1:40:15: We really could.
1:40:16: This has been a great conversation.
1:40:18: Sasha, I want to thank you for joining us here on the podcast.
1:40:21: I want to give you a moment to shout out anything that you want before we wrap things up here.
1:40:26: Book funnel's great.
1:40:28: Everybody, you.
1:40:29: If you're an author, it is literally a the tips.
1:40:33: It's amazing.
1:40:34: Listen, there is no script here, folks.
1:40:36: This was not, we didn't talk about this beforehand.
1:40:39: No, we didn't.
1:40:39: But hey, it is true, it is true.
1:40:42: I do love you guys, and I think, I think you do an incredible service to the community because you're always innovating, so I love you guys.
1:40:49: I think you're amazing.
1:40:50: So thanks for what you do for the community.
1:40:51: Thank you for that, Sasha.
1:40:52: We, we do, it, it means a lot to us and especially like on the, on the back of Author Nation.
1:40:57: I know I think I can speak for the team and that it's humbling.
1:41:00: To get to meet with authors face to face and to like your kind words.
1:41:05: It's very humbling because we put in, we care, we care, and it's good to know that people see that we care.
1:41:11: Thank you for joining us.
1:41:12: We definitely want to have you back on again in the future.
1:41:14: It's an open invitation, Sasha, so reach out.
1:41:18: You're welcome to join us.
1:41:19: And I want to, of course, thank my co-hosts Emma Allison and Kelly Tanzy.
1:41:24: I couldn't do.
1:41:26: This without either of you.
1:41:26: So thank you for helping in everything that you do behind the scenes and here on the podcast.
1:41:32: And thank you to you, our audience.
1:41:35: If you are watching here on YouTube, please subscribe to the channel and like this video.
1:41:40: In fact, if you wanna, you know, in the comments, put your number one takeaway from this episode of the podcast, that helps other people, you know, see what we talked about and they might Listen to the whole thing and find something insightful that you also found insightful.
1:41:53: So, please do that.
1:41:55: It really helps other authors find this content if you think it beneficial to you.
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1:42:08: It really does mean a lot to us.
1:42:10: From all of us here, Book Funnel team, I want to thank you for listening.
1:42:13: We'll see you all in the next one.
1:42:15: Thank you for watching.
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