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Follow one church's journey as they depart from modern church growth trends and reinvent themselves by equipping everyday Christians to live out their faith in real life. Find episodes and show notes at www.dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
Reinventing Church - John Dickson Bonus Episode
Danielle Hartland: [00:00:00] Thanks for tuning in to the Reinventing Church podcast. We're on a summer break, but we have a couple special bonus episodes for you. I hope you enjoy them and you'll, um, come back this fall when we launch again, uh, with Pastor Derek and I talking about the journey that our church is going through step by step practically as we're actually reinventing church with our staff members and people who are interacting with, uh, the thing that we're building together, um, as we move forward.
So enjoy this bonus episode, and we'll see you in the fall.
Welcome to a special bonus episode of Reinventing Church podcast. At Grace Church in Erie, PA, we're reinventing what church looks like by taking the best practices that have endured through history, including the attractional model, and reshaping that into a sustainable [00:01:00] multiplication, disciples making disciples model of church.
A big part of that shift is getting practical tools into the hands of Christians, and tonight is a great example of that. Together we're gonna be asking the big question: how can ordinary Christians have meaningful conversations about Jesus today? I'm here with Pastor Derek, as usual. He's been our pastor for over 350 years.
Derek Sanford: Yep, we're closing in.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah, closing in.
Derek Sanford: Thank you, Danielle-
Danielle Hartland: You're welcome ...
Derek Sanford: for that kind introduction.
Danielle Hartland: Yep.
Derek Sanford: It's always lovely.
Danielle Hartland: It's been a while. Yep. Um, but we're actually here to, uh, spend some time. We're honored to be joined with Dr. John Dickson. John is a historian, author, speaker, and host who has spent much of his career helping people explore the person of Jesus and truth claims of Christianity.
He's spoken to audiences all over the world, written numerous books, and tonight he's gonna help us think about how everyday Christians can have those better conversations about faith. So, thanks for being here.
John Dickson: Thank you.
Danielle Hartland: Great to be here. Appreciate it. Hey- Anything you say is automatically true around us because you have an accent.
So.
Derek Sanford: That's what I said. He could've asked us to do anything- Oh, yeah ... this morning, I would've run out here.
Danielle Hartland: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah,
Derek Sanford: yeah. No problem. But listen, [00:02:00] John also, just we, we've got a little studio audience in here t- today, and, uh, John also gave high kudos to the restaurant we ate at last night. Which was?
He said it could've held up at, Ronan, could've held up at- Oh, Ronan ... anywhere in Sydney. Oh,
Danielle Hartland: okay.
Derek Sanford: Anywhere in Sydney- Yeah ... would've been, uh, just as much of a hit.
John Dickson: Absolutely. Yeah. He, whoever owns that, runs that should, should open in Sydney. It'll go- Oh ...
Danielle Hartland: it'll go nuts. Oh, oh. Don't, don't take him for- We would go nuts for that thought.
Um, sponsorships available. Thank you. Um, okay, so in Reinventing Church style, we're gonna do a quick warm-up. Mm-hmm. This is a rapid fire, so I'm just gonna list of about a dozen things, and you both tell me this or that. You pick which one. And you don't have to defend yourself unless we feel indignant about something, and then you will have to defend yourself.
Okay. Okay. Okay. Number one, coffee or tea?
John Dickson: Tea in the mornings.
Danielle Hartland: Okay, fair enough. Dare?
Derek Sanford: Espresso. Non-choice. But listen, I, I, uh, not to ruin this thing right away- All right ... because it is supposed to be rapid- It is supposed to [00:03:00] rapid fire, but- No, it's great ... one funny word about dinner last night. So we did have dinner last night, and John asked the best question I've been asked yet be-
be- before an event. He said, um, uh, "During the three hours in the morning, are we gonna break for tea?" And- Oh, yeah ... uh, Sarah looked at him cross-eyed and said, "Wait, what did, what are you talking about?" "What is a break?" "I don't, I don't even think we will have tea there."
Danielle Hartland: Aw.
Derek Sanford: So yeah, tea in the
John Dickson: morning. I think, I think my exact words were, "Will we have morning tea?"
Derek Sanford: Morning tea. Morning tea. Yes, exactly. Yeah. I even
John Dickson: got that right. Which is, which is what one calls that break-
Danielle Hartland: Yeah. ...
John Dickson: in the morning where you might have tea.
Derek Sanford: Right.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah. My husband's entire family is British, so I get the sen- Mm ... I get the sentiment. Mm.
Derek Sanford: He's not British, you know. This is-
Danielle Hartland: Well, I
Derek Sanford: know. I,
John Dickson: I know.
But
Danielle Hartland: it's, the culture's the same. Okay, all right, good. Yeah. I know, sorry.
Derek Sanford: Just
John Dickson: making sure
Danielle Hartland: you know. Not to be, I'm not trying to be offensive. Yeah, yeah.
John Dickson: Yeah, we didn't throw the tea overboard.
Danielle Hartland: You kept the tea, exactly. Yeah. All right. Paper books or Kindle?
John Dickson: Paper books.
Derek Sanford: Yeah, I'm, I've converted to Kindle.
Danielle Hartland: Oh, awkward.
Derek Sanford: Easier to take everywhere.
Danielle Hartland: It is easier.
Derek Sanford: [00:04:00] I love to smell the, the paper, though.
Danielle Hartland: Okay.
Derek Sanford: Not the Kindle.
Danielle Hartland: Love the smell of my Kindle. Mountains or beach?
John Dickson: Beach.
Derek Sanford: Yeah, beach.
Danielle Hartland: Okay. Live audience or camera lens- ... whether speaking or teaching?
John Dickson: Live audience.
Derek Sanford: Yeah, live audience.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah, good. Uh, early service or late service?
John Dickson: What does that mean?
Danielle Hartland: For, like, church service, if you had, like, multiple choices, would you go to the early one or the later one?
John Dickson: Depends. The early one, so long as it's not before 8:00 AM.
Danielle Hartland: Oh, there you
Derek Sanford: go. Yeah, I'd, I'd do the early one as well.
Danielle Hartland: Weird. All right. So when teaching, bullet point notes or full manuscript?
John Dickson: In between.
Danielle Hartland: Oh.
Derek Sanford: Ooh. Yeah, I'm a bullet points... Well, it depends. If I'm live, it's bullet points. If I'm, if I'm on video, it's full manuscript.
Danielle Hartland: Okay.
Derek Sanford: Mm-hmm.
Danielle Hartland: Um, all right, ancient Rome- Yes ... or modern... Okay, next. All right. Next, road [00:05:00] trip or airplane?
John Dickson: Road trip. Oh, yeah. Road
Danielle Hartland: trip,
John Dickson: too.
Danielle Hartland: Me, too. Yeah. Good. When you need to recharge, you, do you mean- Sorry,
John Dickson: what, what was the alternative to ancient Rome?
Danielle Hartland: Uh, modern Silicon Valley.
John Dickson: Okay.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah, I know. That, yeah. I didn't even need to fin- yeah. Uh, are you recharging as an introvert or you're an extrovert recharge?
John Dickson: Uh, it depends.
Danielle Hartland: That's okay. We're all complicated
John Dickson: individuals. If, if I happen to be writing a book or, or like I have a big project, I'm, I'm a super introvert.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah.
John Dickson: So I might be with you, it might look like I'm listening- ... but I'm still composing sentences.
Derek Sanford: Understood. Yeah.
Danielle Hartland: Yes.
John Dickson: Um, but if I don't have any deadlines hanging over me- Mm-hmm
I quite like people.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah. Yeah. I feel exactly the same way. That's, yeah.
Derek Sanford: Yeah, I recharge as an introvert.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah.
John Dickson: Yeah.
Danielle Hartland: Good. Um, okay. When you're approached with, uh, a problem, are you a big picture person or practical step person? So are you asking why [00:06:00] does this matter, or are you asking what do I do next?
What's your first-
Derek Sanford: Uh, big picture.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah.
Derek Sanford: Yeah, I lean that way, too.
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm.
Derek Sanford: Yep.
Danielle Hartland: Good. All right. Last, if you find yourself in a rabbit hole, was it built by YouTube or Wikipedia or Reddit? Which rabbit hole are you in?
None Neither 'cause you're a genius. No, I- That's where I'm at.
Derek Sanford: I think I'm a neither, too.
Danielle Hartland: Which one are you in? Are you in any rabbit holes at all, ever?
John Dickson: The Oxford English Dictionary.
Danielle Hartland: I, I love it.
Derek Sanford: I'm not that nerdy.
Danielle Hartland: I love it.
John Dickson: And I have it as an app.
Danielle Hartland: Nice.
John Dickson: And it's so cool. Because you can find out, like, the derivation of words, when it was earliest used- Mm
in the English language, and exactly how it's pronounced. So people can say something really s- like-
Danielle Hartland: Yeah ...
John Dickson: weirdly.
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: It's great fun in America. And, uh, and I can pull up, and it actually has the recording of how it's meant to be pronounced.
Danielle Hartland: Oh, yeah. Oh. There you go.
Derek Sanford: Yeah. I'm in the first- I, my, I'm a podcast rabbit [00:07:00] hole guy, so-
Danielle Hartland: Okay
Derek Sanford: if I'm gonna get in a rabbit hole, it's probably in a podcast show.
Danielle Hartland: Listening.
Derek Sanford: Yeah.
Danielle Hartland: Okay.
Derek Sanford: Listening.
Danielle Hartland: Great. Thanks. All right. Um, John, I have a couple just for you.
Derek Sanford: Oh.
Danielle Hartland: Um, well, not rapid-fire anymore, just questions. Um, some people might not know, but you started as a musician before becoming a historian. Which version of yourself would have been more surprised by where you are today?
John Dickson: Hmm. I mean, I didn't grow up musical.
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: So, so becoming a musician was sort of surprising.
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: Uh, and I wasn't very bookish at school.
Danielle Hartland: Hmm.
John Dickson: And so I think most of my teachers would be stunned, uh, that I did a degree, let alone...
Danielle Hartland: Yeah.
John Dickson: Uh, so yeah, so I find it surprising all around.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah.
John Dickson: Um, but, but I love music because it's creative and it's passionate.
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: And I love, uh, academic history, um, because it's, it's, it's both imaginative because here [00:08:00] you are transporting yourself back into ancient Rome or whatever.
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: Uh, but it's also really solid. Like, you've got evidence to play with.
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: But, but not complete evidence. You just have to use the imagination based on all the evidence.
Um, but, but yeah, both are surprising- Yeah ... if that's your-
Danielle Hartland: Yeah, that's great ...
John Dickson: question.
Danielle Hartland: Great. Um, talk to us a little bit about Undeceptions. Like, what does that mean? Why did you name it that? What are the goals for, for those who might not know?
John Dickson: Well, I mean, the word undeceptions, it's a, it's a really good word.
I mean, I could look it up for you, but I already know. That it's a, it's an excellent 16th century word.
Derek Sanford: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: Uh, C.S. Lewis, the Oxford, uh, don and author of Bonania and all that, loved the word undeceptions- Mm ... and used it frequently, uh, to, to get across the idea of, um, undeceiving. Like, there are lots of myths.
Derek Sanford: Mm.
John Dickson: So undeceptions is removing the myths and revealing what's truly there. Uh, so when I started the [00:09:00] podcast, it just seemed, it was like the first idea that we had. Hmm.
What we're trying to do in the podcast is just that. We're trying to take any topic a thoughtful person might ask of the Christian faith and, um, undeceive them about it. Mm-hmm.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah. Cool.
Derek Sanford: So I wanna jump in there. Well, we have a podcast audience, we got a live audience. Let me just say undecept- when I said podcast rabbit hole, Undeceptions is, like, at the top of my list.
I'm not just saying that because John's sitting here. I'm a premium subscriber. It is one of the coolest podcasts- It is cool ... uh, that's out there. It's really, really, really good. And so I would encourage you, if you're listening, if you're here, uh, sign up for that podcast. There's a free version, there's a paid version.
Go for the paid version. You get lots of extra cool stuff. But, um, uh, my question for you is, who... Do you have any episode- You've been doing this a while. Any episodes that stick out, any guests that particularly stick out in terms of, like, just it being uber fascinating to [00:10:00] you to think back on that, you know, episode?
John Dickson: So many. Wow. Um, the episode with Tim Keller-
Derek Sanford: Mm-hmm ...
John Dickson: uh, the, um, the well-known Presbyterian, uh, who died a couple of years ago. Um, and I got to talk to him about a year before he died. Mm-hmm. That was, uh, that was remarkable for me. Tom Holland, who's a British historian, not a Christian, but thinks Christianity is awesome and ought to be true even if it's not-
uh, and changed our world. So he was, he was fascinating to talk, to talk with. I mean, I could go on and on. Um, uh, Teresa Morgan is professor of, um, Greco-Roman History at Oxford and recently moved to Yale University, and, um, the episode with her was on um, how did ancient Greeks and Romans, in the time of Christianity, think about the good life?
What did they think about morality?
Derek Sanford: Hmm.
John Dickson: And so it was all about, [00:11:00] you know, if you were transported back into the first century, what was a good person? I mean, there's loads of evidence for it. She's written the standard textbook on that question.
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: But it was when-- And I'm terrified of her, 'cause she is honestly one of the smartest people I've ever met.
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: Um, and I remember doing a, a symposium in Oxford where I presented a half-hour paper on something nerdy. And in the symposium were a whole bunch of other Oxford scholars, and the first question came from Teresa Morgan. And I died because- She, she's just at a, in another universe. Anyway, um, I think I only just survived her question.
Danielle Hartland: Oh.
John Dickson: But what she-- In this podcast where we're t- she's talking about ancient Greek and Roman, the good life. I then said, "But okay, so when Christianity comes along in this same period- How did it change what people thought? Or what was unique about Christianity compared to the [00:12:00] average good person on the street?
And her answer was remarkable. I won't remember its wording, but basically she said, "Christians completely changed what people thought was the good life because they thought God was loving in a stable sense." The gods of ancient Greece and Rome could be loving or they could be complete jerks. Mm-hmm. And there's no telling which side of the bed Zeus got up on- Mm
that morning. Um, but she said Christians came along and said, "God is enduringly loving," and that meant love was at the center of the universe, and that had never been thought by Greeks and Romans. Mm. And it slowly, completely upended the Roman Empire.
Derek Sanford: Mm.
John Dickson: So to hear someone who is at the very top of the tree in that very discipline- Yeah
or sub-discipline talk about the impact Christianity had on the world, uh, was very special.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah. That's really cool.
Derek Sanford: My wife and my, uh, favorite episode happens to be the Van Gogh episode- Mm ... or Van Gogh, [00:13:00] as, uh- Van
John Dickson: Gogh ... Van Gogh
Derek Sanford: is usually- With a spit Yeah. That's cool. So I, I just love the variety of people- Mm
that you are pulling truth out of and s- Mm ... uh, so yeah, unbelievable. Mm-hmm. So...
Danielle Hartland: And related to that, uh, my next question was gonna be kind of about this, but you talk a lot, write a lot about just levels of, um, understanding. And so historically, we know many Christian leaders were deeply engaged with major ideas that weren't only Christian ideas.
Mm. Right? They're looking at other ideas. So I, I think you kind of say we've kind of lost that art as Christians, and so I'd love you to speak about that a little bit, and is there anything, like, today that you think we should be reading in that- Oh ... to that end? Yeah, like, maybe two recommendations. It doesn't have to be...
Yeah. Sure.
John Dickson: Okay. So yes, the interesting thing about ancient Christians, um, especially the ancient Christian leaders, is that they read extremely widely and insisted, uh, that [00:14:00] anyone who was going to instruct Christians must read both, uh, Christian texts and secular texts. Uh, we ha- we have this incredible two-part book, uh, by a, a Roman senator who became a Christian called Cassiodorus.
Derek Sanford: Mm.
John Dickson: So it's around, uh, the year 500. And Cassiodorus produced a book that wa- that listed and g- and gave brief commentary on all the Christian books that someone should be reading, and then, and then the second part it was all the pagan books that, that Christians should be reasoning, reading. And he's listing books we ancient historians don't even- Mm
n-know. Mm-hmm. He knew them, but they're now, they're lost to us. But it's on topics of music and astronomy, and he's- Mm ... he's just listing... And, and the, the point was, in this period, 500, the expectation on anyone who was to be any kind of Christian leader was you have to know all the things.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: Because [00:15:00] God is found in all the things.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah.
John Dickson: The, this, i- this world exists because God in his genius created it, which means in every part of the universe, you'll see God's genius. Mm. So you... So their, their reasoning was you must know about astronomy, 'cause all you're doing is you're peering into the genius of God. You must know about maths. I'm sorry, I still can't say math.
Danielle Hartland: Sounds smarter, it's fine.
John Dickson: Maths. Yeah. Um, b- because b- because maths is, is the mind of God.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: Um, and so on. I think it's a beautiful way of thinking about- Mm ... things. And it, and it actually transformed Western Europe, ended up giving us the first schools in the 8th century, and then the first universities in the 10th and 11th centuries.
Um, it, it entirely flows from this Christian vision that if God made everything, knowing all the things is a, is a kind of worship.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: That's a perspective that is [00:16:00] somewhat diminished in modern Christianity.
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: Um, but it, it shouldn't be.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah.
John Dickson: Yeah.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah.
John Dickson: That's good.
Danielle Hartland: Any, like, if someone's like, "You know what?
I'm really nervous about that. How do I know what to get into? What, what would be, like, one good thing, one thought piece of the day?"
John Dickson: Well, to understand Christianity in the first period, right? Uh, there is a wonderful book, uh, by Robert Wilken called The First Thousand Years. There you go. Oh,
Derek Sanford: that's
John Dickson: good. And it is the first thousand years. But it will give you such a rich tour of what Christianity was doing from the very beginning-
Derek Sanford: Mm-hmm
John Dickson: right through, uh, to the year 1000. And it's a remarkable story that hardly any, particularly evangelicals, know about. Because we sort of think, like, there was the Apostle Paul-
Derek Sanford: Mm-hmm ...
John Dickson: and then the next step was Martin Luther. Yeah,
Danielle Hartland: the Reformation.
John Dickson: Yeah, the Reformation. Mm-hmm. But there's this awesomeness going on before [00:17:00] then.
Yeah. And, and most of the awesome things were already done in the first thousand years. The invention of hospitals, the invention of- Mm ... Christian libraries and- Mm-hmm ... and schools and, and so on. It all came in that first thousand-year period.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah. That's great. Very informative. Cool. Um, any other get-to-know-you questions before I move on?
Derek Sanford: No, I just want him to comment real quick- Yeah ... on the, my, my first exposure to you was, uh, your book Humilitas. So, um, that's another one of those examples of the way, uh, Christianity radically changed the world that, uh, Jesus specifically, not Christianity. Jesus specifically- Mm ... radically readjusted the worldview of the moment.
Mm. And, uh, other than just the awkwardness of being introduced as the guy who wrote the book on humility can you talk about- ... humility just for a second? Um, a- and
John Dickson: Why, sure.
Derek Sanford: I'm the expert on humility. Yeah.
John Dickson: I mean, I, I often feel- Like that was my biggest professional mistake- ... [00:18:00] write, writing the book on humility.
And, and I tell you, my close friends have never let me forget- ... that, that I was the one to attempt that.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: But it sort of fell out of a research project I was in. Shortly after I finished my doctorate, I, uh, the University of, the Macquarie University where I worked in the ancient history department, uh, asked me to be involved in this research project exploring humility in the ancient world, where it came from.
And our study group basically found, uh, what many historians have agreed with, that, um, humility was not a virtue amongst Greeks and Romans. Mm. Because humility basically means to lower yourself, and that was contrary to your honor to lower your- lower yourself. But of course, Jesus comes along as the highest Lord who lowered himself.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: And so suddenly, what used to be, what used to mean sort of shaming yourself, humility, from which we get the word humiliation, same root actually, humility and humiliation- Mm ... exactly the same root. Um, this, this, this notion of [00:19:00] being shamed or being made low was flipped. If the greatest person we ever knew lowered himself for the good of others, then that must be a good thing.
Derek Sanford: Mm.
John Dickson: So maybe lowering yourself is, is honorable- Mm ... and noble. And actually, we, we could put on a, on a graph, uh, the uses of the word tapeinos in Greek and humilitas in Latin, the word humility, uh, and show that it, it, it's, it's already being used by 500 BC, but there's an ex- uh, if, if we sort of, you know, did a little mind map or a graph, you'd suddenly see an explosion of the use of the word humility in the 1st century.
And then if you look closer, you'd, you'd see that 90% of the texts are Christian texts. It suddenly explodes. Mm. In the 2nd century, it's even bigger. 3rd century, 4th century. By the 5th century, even secular texts are using humility, the word humility, in a positive sense. Even [00:20:00] the emperors felt they had to be humble.
And it's clearly the impact that Jesus made on Western culture, so that you don't need to be a Christian to be humble. Mm. Of course, there are many humble atheists, and that's fantastic. But it, but that, even that, the humble atheist, is a, is a great example of the impact Christianity has had that's almost unconscious-
Danielle Hartland: Mm
John Dickson: on our culture.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah. Great.
John Dickson: Love it.
Danielle Hartland: Um, all right, let's jump in. I wanna spend a couple minutes just talking through the moment that we find ourselves in now. So from a s- a historian's perspective, John, what do you think is unique about this cultural moment that we find ourselves in?
John Dickson: We're turning post-Christian.
Um, now, the- when I say that, that's, it's a long process.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: Uh, different parts of the West are in different parts of post-Christendom.
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: But post-Christendom is here. It might be a century-long ship-
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm ...
John Dickson: that's sailing through, and you might be [00:21:00] at some point, you know? Uh, you might be able to see some point of it, but it's a, it's a slow-moving vehicle.
And so obviously, in a place like Australia, it's pretty post-Christian.
Derek Sanford: Mm.
John Dickson: Um, in, in pockets of America, uh, there's still Christendom's everywhere, you know? Basically everyone goes to church, et cetera. Mm. But there are plenty of parts in America where that's not the case, where church membership has declined, uh, to an incredible degree.
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: And, um, most people, uh, think Christianity's defective- Mm ... in, in, in some ways. Um, but the interesting thing about being post-Christian as opposed to like a pre-Christian or pagan culture is Christianity is still everywhere beneath the surface.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: So Christian ethics are still the ethics that the average humanist atheist thinks of.
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm. [00:22:00]
John Dickson: Human rights, dignity of everyone, equality, compassion- Mm-hmm ... humility. Like it, we're still profoundly affected by Christianity, even if that humanitarian atheist would say, "Oh no, they're enlightenment values. Thomas Jefferson gave us-
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm ...
John Dickson: freedom of religion." You often hear that, right? Mm-hmm. But Thomas Jefferson got it from ancient Christian texts, and we know that because we actually have Thomas Jefferson's books where he's underlined ancient Christian- Mm-hmm
texts on the freedom of religion. Mm. Um, but, but the secularist wants to imagine that, that they in-- that, that the Enlightenment invented all these lovely virtues- Mm ... and we can, we can do without Christianity. Mm-hmm. So, so what that means is it's not like trying to reach Rome, where people have no assumptions that are basically Christian.
Derek Sanford: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: Reaching post-Christian America, there's tons of presuppositions there that are very Christian. Like if there's a God, there's only one. That's a huge change from the ancient world because they believed in multiple gods.
Derek Sanford: Yeah.
John Dickson: [00:23:00] Um, uh, ethics, you s- you really, you don't need to argue much with the average secularist-
Derek Sanford: Mm-hmm
John Dickson: that humans are valuable and equal and so on. Mm-hmm. So the task is trying to work out how to talk to a culture that sort of has this half memory of Christianity- Mm ... still sitting there, um, that can be activated-
Derek Sanford: Yeah ...
John Dickson: and you can turn people to Christ. But there's a veneer of rejection-
Danielle Hartland: Mm ...
John Dickson: of Christianity-
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm
John Dickson: and an assumption that these great virtues came from not Christianity, but from the Enlightenment.
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: That seems to be where we're at.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah.
John Dickson: Uh, I think Australia's been there 40 years.
Danielle Hartland: Mm. I
John Dickson: think America's going there as we speak.
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm. You spoke about rejection. What, what are people actually rejecting when they're looking at that?
John Dickson: Well, of course- The reputation of the church-
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm ...
John Dickson: is, is at an [00:24:00] all-time low.
Derek Sanford: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: Uh, and, and Ipsos poll has been demonstrating this. They've been, um, polling what people think of, of religion. Mm. And four in 10 Americans think religion does more harm than good. Mm. So 40% of Americans think, on balance, more harm than good.
Mm. That's amazing. Where I come from, it's 60%. Mm. Right? So spare a thought for us. But that's, that's what all ... And, and they're not thinking Buddhism or, or they're not even thinking Islam.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: When they're thinking religion, they are pretty much thinking of the dominant religions, meaning, uh, Christianity.
Mm-hmm. So that is problematic because the church is so important to Christianity.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: So how does one, you know, talk about Christianity and the goodness and, of Christianity, uh, when people think the institution sucks?
Danielle Hartland: Yeah.
John Dickson: That's really difficult.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah. I mean, you, uh, let's just jump into this. You, um, have come up with this [00:25:00] framework.
It's a Gospel Byte framework. Um, I think we have a slide for it if you could put that up, Darrell. And for those of you just listening and not looking, we can, um, put this in the show notes for you. Um, can you speak a little bit about just where this came from? You're kinda getting there, but where this came from and how you see it being helpful?
John Dickson: Well, I mean, it doesn't matter what you call it, but it's a little snippet from something Jesus said or did. Uh, because one thing remains in a post-Christian culture, people still think Jesus is fantastic.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: There are very few attacks on Jesus in post-Christian culture. And when, and when people attack Jesus, you know, the few times it happens, you'll find even secularists defending Jesus.
Derek Sanford: Mm.
John Dickson: It's the Christians we don't like. It's Jesus, he's great. Mm-hmm. Right? So given that- Answering people's questions not with apologetics, but with something Jesus said [00:26:00] or something Jesus did, um, leaves us, um, very close to the best thing we have going for us- Mm ... which is Jesus.
Derek Sanford: Mm. I
John Dickson: mean, you, you might even say Jesus is the only thing Christians have going for them.
Um, a- and so I, I d- I just firmly believe if we can, um, point our friends to the person of Jesus- Mm-hmm ... instead of some intellectual argument.
Derek Sanford: So I, I, I wanna hop in here. Yeah. Um, the... So for our purposes, and honestly for this podcast, we're thinking about how, how has the church kinda been trained in the way we've done things, and what might some shifts be?
And I, when I heard you talk about this, I think this is an exact example of this sort of thing, even in your own story. I mean, you talked about coming to Christ at 16, and then, you know, doing evangelism very naturally, and then all of a sudden you got schooled in the ways of evangelism. And I, I would love for you to just share a little bit of that story with us, because I think it's, it steeps us back into how we've approached [00:27:00] evangelism.
John Dickson: Hmm.
Derek Sanford: And then, uh, maybe do a little contrast with this, um, this idea of, you know, if in 60 seconds you could take your uncle at the Thanksgiving table who's said, "I hate all Christians," or, "The church sucks," or whatever, and, and you don't confront him with the four spiritual laws. You can't give him the entire gospel account.
Uh, you may not even have time to share your personal testimony. Mm. You're, you're saying even if you could do those things, maybe the best thing to do would be this kind of 60-second bit of, about, uh, some intersection with the story or teachings of Jesus. So, so kinda take us through that- run of things Sure.
John Dickson: Wow. Yeah, so, um, I became a Christian, and I thought Christ was fantastic. I could talk about Jesus just like I could talk about my favorite football team. There was no difference. Uh, my football team was Manchester United. The captain of Manchester United was Bryan Robson at the time. Brilliant, brilliant footballer.
So I could, I could talk about Bryan Robson or I could talk about [00:28:00] Jesus. They were both great people of the past.
Derek Sanford: Wait, talk about your actual favorite football team.
John Dickson: Well, now my favorite football team is the Green Bay Packers.
Derek Sanford: There you go. And the proper use of the term football, I might add,
Danielle Hartland: so.
John Dickson: Oh, boy. Oh.
Yeah. I mean, let's count the seconds that the ball is at the foot.
Danielle Hartland: And
John Dickson: the point, yep. Just saying. Let's, let's put it on a graph. Soccer? All right.
Derek Sanford: Um- Oh, you're so data-driven.
John Dickson: So because I was really natural, my church put me in an evangelism training course, and it was a very famous evangelism training course that I won't name because it didn't, didn't do me good. But I, for 12 weeks I learnt all these cool things. I learnt a gospel presentation. I learnt how to steer conversations in a really unconversational manner.
I, I memorized Bible verses. I memorized answers to tricky questions. And once I'd all had it in my head, they set me loose on the unsuspecting public of Sydney. And but what I f- what I discovered [00:29:00] is I was like a bumbling mess Because I was so, I was so focused on getting what I'd learnt across to you, you were gonna sit there until I downloaded the whole thing.
You better. 'Cause I spent 12 weeks learning of this. And it felt like ... I mean, I said this, it's a bit naughty, but I ... It felt like an Amway presentation.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah.
John Dickson: Like, no offense, Amway, great. Lots of Christians in Amway. If you're into Amway- There goes our sponsorship. Oh, man ... it's awesome. But, you know, like, if you get invited over to someone's house and, and you're really delighted to be in their house, and then half an hour in they start tell- selling you Amway products, I don't, I don't know what it's like here, but, uh, I say, "No, thanks.
I'm gone." Like, you should have told me upfront. Anyway, so that's how I used to ... Like, I, I was trained to talk about Jesus more like that. All right. And so I was very confused why I went from being so naturally speaking about Jesus to, to this sort of bumbling, self-conscious [00:30:00] mess. Um, so basically I dropped it.
I decided never to use that, all that stuff ever again. Mm. And I didn't. So I sort of unlearned that, kicked it, kicked it, kicked it away. But over the years, it just ... I just realized that Jesus is the only thing that we have going for us. Mm. So why not just bring people to him?
Derek Sanford: Mm.
John Dickson: And so in conversations, I will, not every conversation, maybe, maybe just 80 or 90% of conversations or questions or criticisms thrown at me, you can very easily remember something Jesus said or did.
Derek Sanford: Mm.
John Dickson: You know? So, so the common one of, you know, Christians are all hypocrites.
Derek Sanford: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: You know, you could launch into your, you know, memorized answer to that question, or you could just say, "You know what? I agree. And you know what? No one was more critical of hypocrites than Jesus."
Danielle Hartland: Mm. [00:31:00]
John Dickson: And there's this time when he's talking to his own disciples and he said, "Don't you worry about the speck in someone else's eye when there's a great big log in your eye, you hypocrite."
That's what Jesus is saying to his own students. Mm-hmm. So you've got some thoughts that actually are very like Jesus. Ultimately, you probably got them from Jesus, or our culture got them from Jesus. Have you ever looked into the life of Jesus? 'Cause he has some amazing things to say- Mm ... about hypocrisy.
Okay. So that didn't take 60 seconds, but I, I led them to, what is it? Matthew six or seven? Seven. But I didn't expound it. I didn't give the exact words or whatever. That doesn't matter, but it's something Jesus, Jesus said. Or, I mean, an example I shared with people this morning, people say Christianity is so judgmental.
You do-- What about that amazing account of the, the sinful woman who comes to Jesus' feet and weeps at his feet? You know, I co- I could say to someone who thinks [00:32:00] Christians are so judgmental, "Look, I agree that's true sometimes, but Jesus hated that stuff." There's a time when this woman comes to Jesus when he's in the middle of a party at the home of a religious conservative, and Jesus welcomes this woman who's lived this really bad life, we're told.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: And he's, he's so gracious to her that his host, the religious leader, is outraged. And you know what Jesus does? He rebukes his host and turns to the woman and says, "I forgive you." Jesus hated judgmentalism and was here to offer forgiveness. Have you ever read the life of Jesus? Because there's tons of examples like, just like that.
Right. So again, it's Luke 7. I've just bumbled my way through. The thing is, you-- I mean, he-here's a challenge. Open one of the Gospels, Luke, let's go with Luke, and read it over the next whatevers, and every time you get to a new [00:33:00] story, think to yourself, "How might this answer a question of someone who's skeptical?"
Danielle Hartland: Mm. "
John Dickson: What complaint of the Christian faith might this story..." And you'll find maybe every second or third story or thing Jesus says relates directly to, to a, a common criticism or complaint-
Derek Sanford: Mm ...
John Dickson: or question a-about, about Christianity, including, you know, ultimately the, the crucifixion
Derek Sanford: narrative.
John Dickson: You think, you know, people will sort of ask about suffering and evil in the world, and I don't think you can do that in 60 seconds.
But what you can do is, is you can say, "You know, I don't have all the answers to your, your question about suffering, but here's, here's one thing I know, and it's the only thing that allows me to get up each morning in this sad world and put one foot in front of the other. It's that the God I believe in was [00:34:00] betrayed by his best friends-
Put through a mock trial, completely unjust. Tortured. Hung on a cross, nails through his hands and feet. Even cried out on the cross. And that's the God I bring my complaints to, the God who himself has wounds, the God who himself has experienced everything I've experienced. So I know that doesn't answer all your problems, but I'm just saying to you, if you're suffering, you can go to this God-
Danielle Hartland: Mm
John Dickson: and know that he knows everything you're going through, not just 'cause he's all-knowing, but because he's been there.
Derek Sanford: Yeah, so great. And I, I, I, um, the ... As we were talking, as, as you were sharing this this morning, my, my mind goes to some boots-on-the-ground issues in the m- in the modern church. So, and a challenge that I will issue to our lovely audience here and anybody who's listening, um, we need to read and know the Gospels better.[00:35:00]
John Dickson: Yeah.
Derek Sanford: Um, you know, it's just one of those things of going if, if we're gonna do that, we better know the stories and teachings of Jesus ourself. Um- We're
John Dickson: sort of meant to anyway.
Derek Sanford: W- yeah, you'd think that was part of the curriculum. Um, but the other thing I loved what you said is that, you know, because, because we get really fixated on kind of the, you know, closing the deal in Amway terms, you know, like bringing somebody right across that line.
And o- one of, one of your comments at, at, at the end of this sort of a conversation is just the offer to tell somebody, "You should check out one of the Gospels." Like, have you ever read ... And I love what you said this morning is, like, a lot of people who, who rail against Christianity ha- have never as adults read one of the Gospels.
Um, and so even to be as a takeaway, just an encouragement to go, "Have you ever read Mark?" You know? Or, "Have you ever read John?" Hmm. "I, I would just love for you to read it, and then let's continue the conversation." But I think as you introduce someone to the, the story of [00:36:00] Jesus, and he's this spectacular
He's the best thing going for us. Hmm. Um, and then to be able to offer th- there's a place where you can read more about him. Yeah. And to point people there, I think it's just a, a, a very, very, uh, simple, um, way to think about how those conversations go.
Danielle Hartland: Uh, semi-related, uh, just my mind was wandering as you were talking. I was think- I was paying attention. I was thinking about how just there are some people who are believers who might balk at this idea, um, for a variety of reasons, I'm sure. Um-
Derek Sanford: People balk at everything, Danielle.
Danielle Hartland: That's true. Yeah. Is that how you say that?
Do we need to... Balk?
Derek Sanford: Balk.
Danielle Hartland: Balk.
Derek Sanford: Look it up on John's- Sounds weird to
Danielle Hartland: me. Yeah. Um, so, a, a lot of that I think has to just do with the, you know, empathetic disconnect or whatever, but in the people that you've talked to, skeptics, Christians alike, what do you think is the biggest disconnect between how Christians [00:37:00] think they're perceived and how they're actually perceived?
John Dickson: Huh. The strange thing is I think Christians are perceived in two ways at the same time. So sitting in post-Chri- the cr- post-Christian mind, uh, and I'm generalizing here- Yeah, of
Derek Sanford: course ...
John Dickson: I'm not, you know, different for different people. I mean, because there are people who only have negative views of, of Christians.
Maybe they've been hurt by Christians in the past. But, but I strongly believe that m- m- many people, maybe most, in the s- post-Christian world simultaneously think of the church as having, you know, done the Crusades and burnt witches- Mm ... and been nasty to gay people, and they've got th- this whole mentality of the church as the bully.
And then weirdly, right alongside it, they've got this other impression of what Christians are meant to be like.
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: Out on the streets looking for, [00:38:00] you know, people who are homeless, and soup kitchens, and- Mm ... and kindness and all, and all that. In fact, it's probably because of that impression that they're so annoyed at the bully impression.
Derek Sanford: Hmm.
John Dickson: So, so the way I think of it is the average post-Christian culture and individual has two Christianities sitting in their head at the same time.
Derek Sanford: Mm.
John Dickson: The negative bully one and the loving, kind one, and it takes the simplest experience of a Christian-
Danielle Hartland: Mm ...
John Dickson: to activate one or the other.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: The, the, the smallest bully statement that they might hear from a Christian- They think, "Ah, Chris- Christians alwa- they're always bullies," right?
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: Or they get a knock on the door from the local church because, you know, they've heard that you're going through a hard time. Here's a meal that, that we've made. And they go, "Oh, yeah, Christians are always the ones who look after the, the people in need." Like, it totally activates this other version of Christianity.
Mm. So that's the [00:39:00] weird thing.
Derek Sanford: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: It's, it's really, really mixed. Two different impressions at the same time.
Derek Sanford: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: I mean, it, this was borne out in actual data in Australia. There was, uh, a s- a, a survey, major survey done by, um, a, uh, a, a research company. Um, my, my wife, maybe she can remember the name of the research company because it'd be good, good to work it out.
Uh, but anyway, um, uh, what they did is they did a kind of report card on Christians. Yeah. And they asked the Australian public, "What do you think of Christians?" And y- you could pick any adjective. You know, jerk, whatever- Mm ... hypocritical, whatever. And then they created, from this massive list, the top 10. In the top 10 were hypocritical, judgmental traditional, [00:40:00] some o-some other negative ones
But the top five were all kind, truthful, loving. And when we got this report We, we looked at it and, and 10 to six were all negative, and five to one all positive. And so we asked the question of the survey company, man, I wish I could remember their names. They're really famous. Um- Not Barna. No, not Barna.
Um, anyway, uh, starts with McCrindle. Boom. McCrindle.
Danielle Hartland: Nailed it.
John Dickson: Nailed it. Um, McCrindle Research. So we all asked, "What on earth's going on here? Is it like there's a cohort that hates us, and then there's a slightly larger cohort that rather likes us?" And he said, "No, it's the same people." The same people are going hypocritical, judgmental, and then they're thinking, "Oh, but my Auntie [00:41:00] Flo, she's Christian," loving, kind.
Yeah.
Danielle Hartland: Wow. Yeah.
John Dickson: So there's actual data that bears out this sort of- Interesting ... picture that people are holding two versions of Christianity in their heads.
Danielle Hartland: Oh, that's interesting.
Derek Sanford: Can I jump in here? Yeah, please. That on the post-Christian, um, the post-Christian thing, you've, you've mentioned a couple times and, and even just thinking about y- you said Australia is a, a few decades ahead of, uh, the US in terms of this post-Christian drift. Can you just talk about that a little bit?
Like, you, you've been in the States for, what, 40 years-ish now, uh, as a permanent resident in Chicago and, uh, but most of your life was spent in Australia. C- so can you just talk about that? What, what are the, what are the signs you're seeing here that, that you've seen already there, that you're saying, "Oh, this is the sure sign that it's kind of on this trajectory"?
Are there any differences in the, in the, you know, the modes that it's taking? I, I'd just love for you to kinda compare and [00:42:00] contrast, uh, those two things.
John Dickson: Well, there's a much bigger base of Christians in America than there ever was in Australia. I mean, you guys started with the Pilgrim Fathers, and we started with convicts sent from England.
Derek Sanford: Right. Right.
John Dickson: So different vibes.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah.
John Dickson: And, uh, so Christianity was a, was an afterthought- Right ... in our founding. Right. So right from the beginning, uh, we were not super Christian.
Derek Sanford: Right.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah.
John Dickson: Um, but we, we did have, we still did have, like, once Australia sort of was less full of convicts- ... uh, we s- you know, we, we used to have, uh, s- like 60, 70% church attendance.
Mm-hmm. It's now down to 15%, one five, one five. Wow. Um, and that's happened over a 30 or 40-year period. Yeah. And you are on exactly the same trajectory. Mm-hmm. You're just about 15 years behind. So I often joke that, um, [00:43:00] Australia is behind America on everything except this. America's 15 years behind Australia on secularization.
Mm-hmm. But it's exactly the same curve. If I ... I don't have them here, but if I had the slides that showed you Australia between 1970 to 2010, the, the decline, uh, your decline would be exactly the same, but it's basically 1990-
Derek Sanford: Mm-hmm ...
John Dickson: to 2020 Right? So, uh, just, just a bit behind. Um, here's one tip. Can I just throw out one hot tip?
Don't be annoyed
They go, "That's, that's gold right there." I like it. I promise you. I like it. You're holding the
Danielle Hartland: stock. Because what happens,
John Dickson: and it- I, I think we saw this in Australia maybe 20 years ago. Christians who sort of felt like, "Hang on. We used to be [00:44:00] really respected." "And now the clergy collar doesn't get me in the queue first.
What's happening here?" Yeah. Uh, "What are you talking about taking away our tax privileges? They're our rights." Sorry, podcast
here. It's all right. So it's like this outrage, this sense of entitlement- Mm ... this horror that the naughty non-Christian world would not respect us like they used to. Um, so here's, here's my hot tip. Don't do that.
Derek Sanford: Okay. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: Be totally cool. In fact, be cheerful. Mm. I'm not saying don't do anything about it.
Persuade, serve, pray, suffer with a smile on your face. Mm. Don't get grumpy.
Derek Sanford: Mm.
John Dickson: Grumpy Christianity does no one any good, and it's not very Christian either. I mean, one of the words that's most closely associated with the [00:45:00] word persecution in the New Testament, right? You wanna take a wild guess what one of the words most commonly that's paired with persecution?
Rejoice. Rejoice rejoice
Okay, so there's the challenge. Mm. When things get worse, church attendance goes down, the government starts saying silly things about what used to be our rights, that, you know, we take away our ... Don't get grumpy.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: Rejoice. Not that this has happened. You can lament in your heart the loss of faith from our public square or whatever.
Mm. But we should rejoice that, that we belong to Christ, and we are the death and resurrection people.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: So sometimes we die too, but we know we rise. And that whole mentality, I just think is, is the thing I [00:46:00] wish we had done better in Australia 20 years ago.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: I think Australian evangelicals are much better at it now.
Like, they'll get whacked across the head in an interview on TV, and the Christian will just go, "Yeah, that's a pretty good, pretty good point. Um, but here's why I don't quite see it that way." You know what I mean? Like, it's not like, "How dare you say that about..." Right? Mm. So to get to that cheerful point, I think is, is the key.
Derek Sanford: That's good. That's wonderful. So, um, one of the other things, we're, we're seeing this little bit of a resurgence among younger people, um, who are either coming to faith, returning to faith. Uh, and, you know, one of the, one of the phrases that we've kind of thrown around here a little bit is especially, uh, out of this kind of secular environment that maybe their parents w- raised them in or whatever, this concept that secularism has been tried and failed, and they're looking for something more meaningful and deeper.
Uh, [00:47:00] another one, I just kind of lob it out there as a softball to you and say, can you just comment on that? Because, um, you know, while there is this drift, which I completely agree, um, there's also this little resurg- even already, this little resurgence of kind of rising from the ashes. Mm-hmm. There is this really beautiful thing- Yeah
uh, especially among young people who are longing for Jesus and going hard after Jesus and- Yeah ... uh, in their lives.
John Dickson: Okay, I have a lot of thoughts. Um-
Not everything is as it seems. So the people who are really expert drilling down on these numbers are not nearly as confident as the initial headlines said about this little resurgence.
Derek Sanford: Mm.
John Dickson: It's hardly a resurgence at all-
Derek Sanford: Mm ...
John Dickson: because although there is a little more male, young male looking at church, there's an equal drop-off of females.[00:48:00]
That is scary Uh, so that, that makes me nervous that it's not a thing of the spirit, it's a thing of culture
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: Um
Danielle Hartland: Why do you ... Well, say that, say more about that. Why do you say that?
John Dickson: I just, revival could never pr- just draw blokes and repel- You're right ... and repel women.
Danielle Hartland: End of podcast. Thank you,
Derek Sanford: John. Yeah.
John Dickson: I ... You know, there's this whole sort of bro thing, right? Mm. You know, "Clean up your life. Get back to church." You know, "Be a man," right? And, and, and so there is a little bit of that. Mm-hmm. And the ... We don't know for sure if that's what's turning women off, but we do see a drop-
Derek Sanford: Mm-hmm ...
John Dickson: in young women and church.
Mm. So I, I'm really, I'm [00:49:00] really concerned. I think it's, it's ... I'm h- I'm hoping there is a tiny little bump. That'd be great. Um, I follow a guy called Ryan Burge. Um, you c- you can follow him online, but he has, um, uh, I think his thing is called Religion Graphs, and he is every day producing new graphs about, about this.
Derek Sanford: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: And he's saying no one in the church should be excited about what's happening-
Danielle Hartland: Mm ... '
John Dickson: cause the, the, the real statisticians and sociologists are not yet convinced it's anything statistically significant.
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: Um, because the, the long-term trend down is so massive- It
Derek Sanford: is,
John Dickson: yeah ... this little bump in parts of America- Yeah
it could just be w- you know, the wave could just wash right over it. Mm. Mm-hmm.
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: Um, but h- here's what I, I honestly believe. Um, a, a lot of the loss is [00:50:00] from what you might call the nominal church.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
Derek Sanford: Yep.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah.
John Dickson: Um, because there's no longer any sort of, uh, social credibility-
Danielle Hartland: Right ...
John Dickson: for going to church.
Right. At least in many parts of America. Mm. See, it used to be, "Oh, I, I go to that church," and it used to lift your soc- social credibility, but that's sort of gone. Mm-hmm. And so people who were just going to church because whatever, you know, I did, and there were nice people there, and it had good business contacts and all that sort of stuff.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: Good playgroup or whatever. Um, they're now no longer going. So you're seeing this massive drop-off But here's the interesting thing. We may well see a bottoming out of that drop.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: And it will be brilliant for the church.
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: Because if we get to the point where those who were just sort of hanging on for social reasons are no longer coming, what's left are people who actually believe this stuff.
And so eventually what you're gonna see [00:51:00] is like a real bottoming out. We, we may get to the point where ... I mean, I think Australia has basically bottomed out, and sociologists are saying 15% church attendance is bottoming out, um, because it's been that way for a couple of years, and then there was a year where it sort of bumped up to 16% or something.
Mm. So it's, it's now, it's sort of plateaued. And what that means is statistically over the long term, you might see the church growing again because you, because the hangers on or the sort of social credibility people, they're, they're no longer going to church. Right. So they're not ... There's no more of those people to leave.
Right. And that's good.
Derek Sanford: Right. Yeah. Yeah.
John Dickson: We want them back. We want them back with their hearts on fire for Christ.
Derek Sanford: Amen.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah.
John Dickson: Um, but the, the true church that's left is the, is the church that's gonna grow. We can already just see this in Australia. Um, but I honestly think you've got a decade to go-
Danielle Hartland: Mm ...
John Dickson: of decline.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: But maybe, please Lord, [00:52:00] you know, that, that church that's the real believing church, if, if they are busy and passionate and giving their all to the task, when it bottoms out, that's the statistic, statistic we're gonna start seeing.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah.
John Dickson: The growing heartfelt church-
Danielle Hartland: Yeah ...
John Dickson: in America. And because it really is a massive church, like the number of genuine Christians in America is crazy.
Um, it's gonna be great not only for America, but for the world.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah. Amen. That's a good place, uh, to shift here. Um, we're gonna do kind of a little hard stop here podcast-wise, but, um, we'll keep going in the room. So last couple minutes here to submit a, a question if you want, um, and then we're gonna-- we're just gonna do like a two-minute break and then just start doing a-- taking some of these questions.
Um, so just give us a second to get settled and then we'll, we'll, we'll keep going.
Okay, [00:53:00] so we're back in with our Q&A section. We have some good questions that came in. I'm just gonna lob them your way. John, if you wanna start, and Derek, you wanna add any- Sure ... any color commentary you'd like to- Sure ... please feel free. Um, all right, let's start here 'cause this is kind of where we, um, ended, um, a little bit.
Um, how would you... Oops, sorry. Whoop. Why does it seem like my non-Christian friends are kinder, happier, and more successful than my Christian friends? What am I missing?
John Dickson: I mean, I don't know your Christian friends. Um, all, all I can say is that the data says that statistically speaking, that isn't true.
Statistically speaking, uh, Christians are way more involved in volunteer work, philanthropy, um, have much higher scores on the happiness [00:54:00] index. Mm-hmm. Um, and the, uh, amazing research coming out of The Flourishing Project at Harvard University, if you wanna go and investigate that. Mm. I mean, we- Undeception did a whole episode on it, so you can go and look at that.
But if you just go yourself to The Flourishing Project at Harvard University, massive, massive, the best, the world's best- Mm-hmm ... exploring this. Mm-hmm. And they keep on finding that Christians are sort of happier and more contributing than the general population. Mm. So, um, I can't explain your situation.
I'm sure there are many, you know, pockets of Christians who, um, just aren't thriving for, for whatever reasons. And I don't wanna, of course, give the impression that, um, Christians are immune from mental health-
Derek Sanford: Mm-hmm ...
John Dickson: problems. That's not the case. Mm-hmm. Uh, but even there, the data suggests that Christians endure mental health crises with way more resilience-
Danielle Hartland: [00:55:00] Mm
John Dickson: than the general population.
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: Which is of course, tied into their sense of God's care. I- Sure.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah.
John Dickson: Yeah.
Derek Sanford: Yeah. And not to go too dark, but, um, you know, uh, go- go to the f- compare and contrast a funeral, uh-
John Dickson: Yeah.
Derek Sanford: That's
John Dickson: good, yeah ...
Derek Sanford: um, a, a Christian funeral and an, a non-believing funeral. It is ra- I don't know if you've been in both sets of rooms.
I have many times. It is a radically different moment. And, and again, when we're talking about ultimate things, um, you know, there's one, there's one way to look at a life in a snapshot of time. There's another way to look at a life over the long haul. And it may look, uh, in the moment like this person is thriving and everything is together, and it may look in the moment that this person isn't thriving and everything's not together, and it-- things are not always as they seem.
John Dickson: Mm-hmm.
Derek Sanford: And, um, you know, I, I think there's, you know, I, I, I've tried to, uh, pull up Jesus's, uh, words here in Matthew 5. You know, He causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, sends rain [00:56:00] on the righteous and on the unrighteous. Like, there's this sense that, you know, we, we're all participating in the common grace, the common good of God in this world.
Um, but man, when it gets to the ultimate stuff, uh, there is something really, really different about a person who's grounded in Christ and a person who's not grounded th- their life in Jesus.
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm Here's a question from Tim, how to specifically reach someone who was raised in church and now doesn't believe and has gone far away from church and now thinks the Bible is just a story as well as any other faith?
John Dickson: Man, it depends on the relationship you have with that person. Mm-hmm. It depends what their specific reasons are. Th- the, the interesting thing about doubt is that sometimes doubts present themselves as intellectual problems, which is ultimately cover for more psychological or moral doubts about the text.
So what very often [00:57:00] happens is people drift from Christianity for sort of emotional or practical or moral reasons, and then they suddenly find themselves drawn to all the arguments against Christianity- Mm-hmm ... and call those arguments the reasons they're no longer Christian.
Derek Sanford: Yeah.
John Dickson: I, I've just seen that so often-
Danielle Hartland: Yeah
John Dickson: that I'm just always a little bit skeptical when someone says, "I've drifted from Christianity 'cause there's no evidence." I go, "Okay, s- let's talk more."
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm. "
John Dickson: Tell, tell me, you know, what you used to believe and how you used to believe."
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: Now, that is not to say there aren't some people for... who have had real intellectual crises of the faith, but honestly, I- I've been doubting a long time.
I'm a world-class doubter. And I don't reckon there is a single question you could possibly throw at the Christian faith that hasn't been beautifully answered by some nerd in some book in some library somewhere.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah.
John Dickson: [00:58:00] So for people who have genuine intellectual doubts, you know, the Bible's just a myth made up- Mm-hmm
they need to do a little more work. That-
Danielle Hartland: Yeah ...
John Dickson: that doesn't fly- Yeah ... a statement like that.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Derek Sanford: Okay. Yeah. Let, let me just say something about that, too. You know, I, I think I've told this story maybe on this podcast before, but this person just contacted me again, so it's fresh on my mind. I do think
You, you mentioned at the beginning the, the relational component of that, of a question like that. Mm-hmm. And, you know, I think, uh, you know, as John, you alluded to earlier, this idea of that, that we could be a, a people who could winsomely talk about our faith in Jesus, and even winsomely talk about really difficult questions.
The, the, the situation I'm referring to is I, you know, was sitting across from somebody in a fairly casual setting, and they, uh, confronted me with the ... As soon as they found out I was a pastor. So we were doing fine until that moment.
John Dickson: Yeah, yeah.
Derek Sanford: And as soon as they found out a pastor, first words out of their mouth, [00:59:00] "So you're telling me you think I'm going to hell?"
And I said, "Oh, okay, let's talk about that," you know. And he explained the situation, h- where he was, and I said, "Y- yes, I do. Um, and I hate that. I hate that for you. I don't want you to go there and I don't love this doctrine. I, I believe it to my core because Jesus believed it, but man, there's a whole thing about
I'm not sure how you've understood that doctrine, and I think there's probably things we would talk about, but yes, I'm, I'm convinced that what the, what Jesus said about this is true." And so we had this moment, and we c- carried on, and I heard from him afterwards that it was one of the most compelling conversations he'd ever had about Christianity, and he said he felt more inclined to become a Christian after our conversation.
And I said, "Why?" And he said, "Because I thought all of you guys loved hell, loved the doctrine of hell, loved that all of people like me were [01:00:00] going there." Like, it was this thing that we just, like, celebrate and dance around and go, "Yeah, you're going to hell." Mm-hmm. "Can't wait till you, you know, this happens to you."
And he said, "To hear your heart of going, I don't want that for you." Mm-hmm. Um, a- and so, so much of those edges get rubbed off in the, in the relationship that these hard lines that people think they believe or think they know about all Christians, that when you're in an actual conversation with somebody, man, it, it, it, it, it's a whole different, uh, dynamic if you can come at your faith just as a real person- Mm-hmm
and
Danielle Hartland: winsomely
Derek Sanford: and- Mm-hmm ... and lovingly, compassionately for that person, so.
Danielle Hartland: Question from Sherry. Um, using your framework that we talked about, um, pointing people to Jesus first, um, how would-- what would be your gospel bite to someone who says, "I want no part of a God who allows terrible things to happen to good people, especially children"?
John Dickson: I mean, I would [01:01:00] agree with them that, that these are terrible questions that we can hardly answer. But I, I would do what, what I, what I did. Uh, I would go straight to... It- I mean, if, if I'm only gonna have a minute or two- Yeah ... I can't solve all the problems. If they're gonna give me longer, I'll give them a book I wrote on that topic, right?
Yeah. Um, or get them some other, you know, better book. But if I ha- just have a minute or so, I, I'm just gonna say, "Look, the, the only reason I can keep going is 'cause I know the God that I believe in Himself has wounds."
Danielle Hartland: Mm. "
John Dickson: He has experienced abandonment, rejection, injustice, torture, a final breath." And I would say that, that the rage you, you feel is permitted.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: But I would just encourage you to take it to the God who Himself has suffered-
Danielle Hartland: Mm ...
John Dickson: and see what you get back. Beyond that, I, I can't answer all the philosophical questions. Yeah. Certainly not in this [01:02:00] conversation.
Derek Sanford: Yeah. That's good. That's good. Um- And you, and you would never want to be this, um, combative in a moment like that. But l- let me just say also that every, no matter what worldview you find yourself in, everybody has to deal with issues like that.
John Dickson: Yeah.
Derek Sanford: And so if we are secular humanists and believe that this is, uh, everything is just happy accidents along the way, um, does it make that issue m- better for you or more soothing for you to, to, to work through, or to know that there is a God who, with, who is gonna make all things right in the end?
John Dickson: Mm.
Derek Sanford: And because every worldview has to ha- deal with evil, you know? Yeah. And, and really the starting place is to go, "Well, why is there even evil in the first place?" Why do you ... In, in this worldview where someone is taking advantage of someone else or whatever, like in that worldview, that's kind of accepted.
Mm. I mean, it's, [01:03:00] if we're survival of the fittest and everybody's kinda the, the, the big man wins, like, it's kinda to be expected in that worldview, you know? And again, you'd never do that in a compassionate conversation. But, but I do think on a philosophical level, everybody's having to grapple with these questions and, and the question becomes in the, in the pantheon of, you know, religions, does Christianity do it better than the rest?
And I, I would argue that it does.
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: Yeah, I mean, I, I did write a book on this whole thing called If I Were God, I'd End All the Pain. Yeah. And my, my, my basic argument was to go through the different possibilities. And in the end I said, "I don't think Christianity has a knockdown argument, but it's probably the only view still standing."
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: And that, I think that's, that's where you can get that sort of conversation. Yeah. I don't think you can be triumphant on a question like this. Yeah. Sure. Good.
Danielle Hartland: Here's a specific one, uh, from Chris. How to reach a Jewish friend-
John Dickson: Mm-hmm ...
Danielle Hartland: who doesn't believe in Jesus? [01:04:00]
John Dickson: Again, it all- Yeah ... really depends what sort of relationship you have with them and so on.
Yeah,
Danielle Hartland: yeah.
John Dickson: But the first thing you could do is know f- more about Judaism.
Derek Sanford: Yeah.
John Dickson: Uh, and, and you could do that by asking the person, or you could go and read some books on Judaism. Um, and then you could probably learn more about the Jewishness of Jesus, and there's tons of literature-
Derek Sanford: Mm ...
John Dickson: on the Jewishness of Jesus.
Mm. Um, and then you might be in a better position- That's good ... to just talk with the person about how Jewish Jesus was. E- every, every word that came out of his mouth was Jewish.
Derek Sanford: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: Um, a- so I think that, that might be, uh, a way, a way forward. But there are, but there are ways in which Jesus is different from a contemporary Orthodox Jew.
Derek Sanford: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: But that's because there were debates in Jesus' day about what being a Jew was. Mm-hmm. Like, the Pharisees weren't all the Jews.
Derek Sanford: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: But the Pharisees ended up winning.
Derek Sanford: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: And that's [01:05:00] why Orthodox Judaism looks like ancient Pharisaism. But there were also Essenes, and Zealots, and Sadducees, and a, a movement we call the Baptizer Movement.
Um, oh, and by the way, uh, one of the Undeceptions podcasts is called Jewish Jesus. Mm-hmm. So maybe that's something, uh- Yeah ... to give to send your friend
Derek Sanford: Yeah, and I think in general, I just wanna pick up one little comment that you said there that I wanna expand. So for those listening to the podcast, we've, we've got members of our, my church sitting here in front of us.
Uh, uh, and I'm even just, I'm, I'm hearing things and wanting to, to encourage us with them. And so apologies to those for you just listening. But, you know, one of the things coming out of this morning, coming out, even just your response to that, and, like, read the book about J- Judaism or whatever, is just a reminder to us, I think, that to, to read more.
Just l- that read more. Uh, read more widely, learn more. Let's be [01:06:00] devoted to this thing that we have given our life to. Um, and you know, I think we, uh, we just had one of... I'll leave him nameless. A, a, a younger person who's kinda getting into the job force for the first time and kind of YouTubing their way through jobs, and going, "I got this job.
Uh, I don't know how to do that job, so I'm gonna watch a YouTube, like a 15-minute YouTube video, and I'm gonna show up the next day and do that job." And then the next job I don't, I'll just YouTube. And, and I feel like we're, we, we do this with our faith sometimes. We do this with information sometimes. And to go, "How do I reach this person?
Well, let me watch a 15-minute YouTube video on it and I'll, I'll have a good approach." And it's like YouTube and, and social media is like a fast food version of a de- like, a delicious meal like we had last night. Yeah. Where, um, just sit down to the meal and, and we, don't fast food our way through information and relationships and, um, serving and helping people.
And so I, I've been inspired by your visit, John. Uh, [01:07:00] even my own self, I read a lot, but I wanna, I wanna go deeper in my own reading and the expansiveness of my own understanding of things. And I just think that's a great takeaway as we think about these things. 'Cause you could walk away from tonight and go, "Okay, yeah, I've got this friend that's going through this.
Let me watch a quick..." And, and that's, that's okay. I'm not, you know, berating that. But I'm just saying, man, if we w- if we, if we, more of us had a well that runs really deep, uh, it, it would, it would make the world better.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah. Good. Um, this is a question from Kathy, and I think this is in, in reference to these con- types of conversations that we're having with people who are far from Jesus.
How does the personal, uh, how does the problem of personal sin and the need to repent enter these conversations?
John Dickson: And it depends on the kind of relationship- Yeah ... you have with the person and so on. Um, but I, I think it will eventually. It, it might not be the presenting issue. So if someone says, "I don't [01:08:00] wanna get involved in Christianity 'cause it's, it's full of corrupt people. You know, you're all right, but the rest of them aren't."
Um, I don't think there's value if you've only got a minute to sort of say, "Yeah, but we're all sinners, and you fall short, too." Like, that's not gonna be a super happy conversation.
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm. Mm.
John Dickson: You're better off just sort of saying, "Yeah, Jesus hated that sort of corruption, too," and then maybe telling the story of Jesus going into the temple and being outraged at all the hypocrisy that's there, the corruption.
Um, but obviously, i- if you're gonna have an opportunity to really share the faith with someone, then you've gotta confront the problem of sin, the, the reality of the offer of forgiveness of sins. And this is why I, I said this morning, I think the best thing, the best outcome you could possibly have from any conversation with someone who's not a Christian is to encourage them to read a gospel.
Because if they read a gospel, they'll be [01:09:00] confronted with Jesus preaching against sin.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: And then you, you get to talk with people about that. So if you can possibly urge your friends to read a gospel and then meet with you and ask their questions, you'll be talking about sin, but pretty soon you'll be talking about forgiveness.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: Because Jesus is constantly eating and drinking with the sinners, right? So they're sinners, but here he is eating and drinking with them, so you've got the two themes operating at the same time-
Danielle Hartland: Mm ...
John Dickson: in the gospels.
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Let's do a lighter one here, uh, from Aaron. "John, what made you choose to join the faculty at Wheaton College out of all the schools out there?"
John Dickson: Mm. I mean, they're the only one that asked. It's, it's not like- ... American colleges were beating down my door. But I was, I was happy in Australia. I wa- I was having great fun.
I, I had my podcast. You know, I had my church. I taught at Sydney University. I was fine. Um, and then, uh, [01:10:00] it, uh, Ed Stetzer is a name maybe some of you know, uh, was a professor there. There was a new position that opened up, and he basically called and said, "You have to do this," and I said, "No way. I don't wanna live in America."
I loved America. I've been coming to America once, maybe twice a year for 20 years, so I love America from a distance. So it was very surprising, and I basically said, "No, no, no," until I said yes, yes.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah.
John Dickson: And my wife was sort of involved in that discussion, too.
Danielle Hartland: I bet.
John Dickson: Yeah.
Derek Sanford: I
John Dickson: bet. Ultimately- ... it ... But just to be honest, the thing that convinced us that, that we should come is the feeling that, you know, we've been trying for 25 years to reach a post-Christian Australia-
Danielle Hartland: Mm
John Dickson: that maybe the Lord has just been preparing us to help come here and help others-
Derek Sanford: Mm ...
John Dickson: reach a post-Christian America.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah.
John Dickson: And so that's sort of what I feel like I'm doing here.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah. That's cool. [01:11:00]
Derek Sanford: Can I jump in with a question for John?
Danielle Hartland: You don't have to be nice to me.
Derek Sanford: Um- It's great ... well, this is your segment, so- That's true
yeah. Um, y- and you can do whatever you want with this question, okay? Full permission. Um, but I did find out last night that you are, and let's just talk about it as a third-party thing, fascinated by American politics.
Danielle Hartland: Uh...
Derek Sanford: Can you just talk about what fascinates you? It was fascinating to me to hear you talk about it as someone who's not embroiled in it.
You're, you're kind of like an outside viewer watching what's happening, don't have a whole... You know, don't have a horse in the race kinda thing. D- at, at whatever level you wanna go, talk about what is fascinating to you about American politics.
John Dickson: Um, yeah, like I am a bit of an American politics junkie. And it's partly because [01:12:00] I don't really have skin in the game very much, right? Um, so I, I'm fascinated by the very different perspectives that- ... are in America. Um, I'm particularly struck by, um, I, I, don't love it, but I'm struck by the negative polarization, uh, that i- is only increasing.
Negative polarization in the sociological literature is... And they've been testing this for, like, 50, 60 years. Mm. Uh, the f- when you ask Republicans, registered Republicans, uh, about Democrats and how strongly you agree with the statement Democrats are liars and immoral, I think that's the... Immoral and something else, like bad.
Uh, and then they do the same for Democrat, uh, a- ask about Republicans. And so, [01:13:00] um, the negative polarization is Republicans used to not feel so angry at the Democrats, and Democrats didn't used to feel so, like, D- Republicans are evil.
Derek Sanford: Mm.
John Dickson: And we, we can watch this increase on both sides dramatically. We're at the worst point it's ever been in America.
It's never been worse according to these surveys. I find that really worrying and ma- it might... I know some people are arguing that it's actually a function of the loss of religion.
Derek Sanford: Mm.
John Dickson: Because the l- the loss of religion does a bunch of things in America. One is, you know, I think personally, people become a little more crazy and try out new fandangled social policies.
That's one thing. But actually, what, the other thing that may really be playing here is people, when you lose a sense of religion, you believe more in politics [01:14:00] The ... Honestly, I think the more you trust Jesus Christ and know that He's the Lord of all, the more hands-off you can be with politics.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: You may even be a politician, but if you're absolutely sold out to Jesus, you know you're not doing the most important thing in the world.
Yeah. But the less confidence there is in Jesus Christ, the more you have to think the only hope for our nation is politics. And so the stakes, we tell ourselves, have never been higher.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah.
John Dickson: And it's not true.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: So- Yeah
Danielle Hartland: Nice
John Dickson: There's more I could say. That, that, but that's, but that's- Yeah ... it's something to really work on. You know? Like, whatever your political view, that negative polarization, you ... I, I think it's a spiritual thing. If you're a Christian who's a Democrat or a Republican, and you find yourself hating more the other side, honestly, it isn't godliness.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: I'm a visitor. [01:15:00] I'm gone tomorrow afternoon, so I'm gonna say this. It's worldliness.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: You are just captured by the political world. It's just sociology.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: That you tell yourself it's, that it's your moral outrage, it's probably not. So let's really work on that, and whatever side you're on, try and reach out to the other side.
Let's mess with people's heads.
Danielle Hartland: Yeah. That's good.
John Dickson: And churches, I think, should studiously avoid political, uh, partisanship.
Danielle Hartland: Mm-hmm.
John Dickson: Because as soon as you become really politically aligned with one side or the other, you're making a choice not to evangelize 50% of the country.
Derek Sanford: Hmm.
John Dickson: That's right. Okay. But I really am going tomorrow afternoon, so.
Danielle Hartland: That's good. Um, let's pivot just a minute here. Um, we have a couple related questions, uh, more lining up with traditional missions, quote-unquote, global missions, um, from Aiden and Kenzie and, uh, Kaylee. [01:16:00] Do you have any advice or wisdom for sharing about Jesus to those who have never heard His name at all or are practicing a different religion altogether?
John Dickson: Well, obviously learn about the other religions.
Danielle Hartland: That's good.
John Dickson: Um, I mean, I don't mean to turn this into an advertisement campaign, but I did write a book called The, A Doubter's Guide to the World Religions.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: And it takes you through the history and texts of Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity in all its forms, and Islam.
And, um, I think that it's a good introduction, uh, for, for the world religions. Mm-hmm. So you've gotta know and respect where people are coming from before you can, before you can talk, talk with them. Yeah. And so in... If they're, if they're people who are locals who are, say, Muslims or Hindus or whatever, the, the best way to have a conversation about Jesus is to, to ask them all about their religion.
Derek Sanford: Mm.
John Dickson: Don't, don't even go there with like, "I'm gonna try and get three gospel stories across." Just go and ask them all that you can about their faith, because guaranteed they're [01:17:00] gonna say something- Mm ... about, "Well, what, what do you believe?"
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
John Dickson: And so you'll have an opportunity to talk about Jesus.
Danielle Hartland: Um, we're getting close to the end here, and I'd like to use, uh, these final couple of questions to kind of s- set up our closing. Um, so let me give you the closing question first, and then I'll give you the Q&A questions. So my thought was to talk about, um, if we could reinvent how the
church approaches evangelism for the next generation, what would need to change and what absolutely should not change? That's kinda where I'm going at the end, okay? So here's some questions that came in that I think set that up. Um, let me just summarize. Um, "From my experience, it's felt difficult to find fellow Christians who are passionate about intentional evangelism.
What are some ways, uh, or a first step to help encourage, inspire other Christians to step into it? For example, when I ask people to join, a common response is, 'I'm not good enough to make an impact.'" Um, yeah.
John Dickson: Well, [01:18:00] I'm of the view that not every Christian h- has to have, uh, that same desire to go knock on doors and, and so on.
So if that's where the question's coming from- Yeah ... uh, you just gotta be careful not to impose your personality on someone else.
Derek Sanford: Mm.
John Dickson: So there are evangelists that Christ has given to the church, and you can hardly shut them up about Jesus, and they're awesome. But they, what they tend to do is they think, "Why isn't everyone like me?
Derek Sanford: You should be like me,"
John Dickson: right? And we sort of impose this on each other- Mm ... and it, you gotta drop it. It's not, it's not real, okay? Because you don't know, like, whether the person you're trying to c- get to go door knocking with you, they actually pray their hearts out more than you do.
Derek Sanford: Mm.
John Dickson: Well, the way the New Testament teaches it is that person is doing every bit as much as you are for the advancement of the Gospel.
'Cause if you're praying for your neighbors to come to Christ, you're praying for the, the Gospel to go out to India or whatever, you, it, you might as well be on a street corner preaching- Mm ... the way the New Testament thinks of this. You [01:19:00] are contributing to the Gospel through prayer. So let's not be too harsh on each other.
Derek Sanford: Mm.
John Dickson: Um, but obviously, the, the general way to lift people's desire to commend Christ to the world is for people to know Jesus better and, and to think He's awesome. So, um- I, I'm a big believer in what motivates people in the end to do whatever they can do to reach out isn't an evangelism program. It's a, it's a, it's a heart that thinks Jesus is just the best thing going.
Derek Sanford: Mm.
John Dickson: So one of the clearest texts in the Bible urging all Christians to do something goes like this. It says, "Don't fear what they fear. Do not be frightened. But in your heart set apart Christ as Lord, always being prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the [01:20:00] reason for the hope that you have.
But do this with gentleness and respect." Mm. So that's 1 Peter 3:15. But it begins with, "In your heart set apart Christ as Lord, always being prepared to give an answer." So the answer to your own evangelistic motivation isn't do I have the right programs? Have I read the right books? As important as that might be.
It's have I really set apart Christ as Lord? Do I know he is Lord, no one else is? Politics isn't Lord. Radio talk show hosts aren't Lord. The YouTube, you know, influencer is not Lord. Jesus is Lord. The more you know that, believe it, feel it, the, the better-- the best version of yourself you will be.
Danielle Hartland: Mm.
Thoughts from you? Oh, you're done. No
Derek Sanford: Take us to the end.
Danielle Hartland: Oh, okay. Um, so John, you s- you're spending time with skeptics [01:21:00] and seekers. Derek, you're spending time building local churches. Are there things that you have observed about each other or what you've spent maybe talking about, um, that maybe each of you sees that the other might be missing or might benefit from, from your perspective?
Ooh.
Derek Sanford: No way, he's awesome. He's awesome. Same. Same.
Danielle Hartland: Not personally.
John Dickson: Just, when I grow up, I wanna be Derek.
Derek Sanford: Yeah, no, come on. Think of it as your t- your word for the local
Danielle Hartland: church. Your word for the, yeah. Yeah.
John Dickson: Your word for the local church.
Derek Sanford: Maybe not me personally.
Danielle Hartland: No, like-
John Dickson: You know, I honestly believe that the local church is the most important evangelistic thing on the planet.
Way more important than being a professor at Wheaton College. Way more important than writing books or making movies or any of those things that do commend Christ. Because you can always argue against a pretty good book about Jesus or a great lecture [01:22:00] or a podcast. What is almost impossible to argue against, for a skeptic to argue against, is a church that really looks like Jesus Christ.
Derek Sanford: Right.
John Dickson: Because you might come with all your skepticism, "Ah, Christians are dumb," and then you just meet this whole family of people that are pretty thoughtful.
Derek Sanford: Yeah. "
John Dickson: Christians are mean and bullies," and there's always lovely elderly ladies that just wanna love on you. Um- Yeah ... "Christians, they're so prudish and judgemental," and, and, and it's just love and friendship.
Mm. So, um-
Derek Sanford: Mm-hmm ...
John Dickson: I just think that the local church is the most important thing. It's why, uh, like, 15 years ago, I moved out of sort of full-time academia and speaking and writing to, for a time, become a local church pastor, because I was so convinced that it's the most important thing. I ... Along the [01:23:00] way, I, I think I worked out that although it is the most important thing, perhaps my most important contribution to that thing isn't being-
Derek Sanford: Mm
John Dickson: a pastor. It's doing the other things- Mm-hmm ... and helping churches. Um, but for me, there's, there is nothing more powerful, more convincing, more beautiful, more true than the local church when it looks like Jesus.
Derek Sanford: Yeah. Good. Yeah, and I, I shared with John this morning, I think that, um- Uh, same. I, you're... I'm a huge, huge fan.
I follow you, all, everything you've done. Um, I shared with him this morning our, our recent, uh, journey into, uh, really trying to make these, um, these discipleship outcomes of our faith into practical things that people can do. Mm-hmm. And, um, I think it's just th- this thing that I'm finding so much fruit in right [01:24:00] now of seeing people who, who, you know, uh, for 30 years I've stood in the pulpit and said, you know, "Reach your neighbors with the gospel, and, and pray for your friends, and read the Bible," and said these things, and coming to realize that, man, if we can get that into some really usable tools that people can use in their everyday life, that we're bridging an important gap that, um, uh, that may be there.
And so that's not any kind of critique on what John's doing, but that- that's just, I think, a, a, a piece of the puzzle to say how can we break Christianity, like living the Christian life down into its usable forms, uh, and help to coach people and train people this is how you do it. I mean, you talked about the catechesis this morning in the, in those early days of, you know, long three-year programs of just going, "Here's what it means to be a Christian, and we'll teach you for three years and 144 hours," or whatever it was, and now, now do you wanna convert to [01:25:00] Christianity?
And so that was all pre- pre-conversion. Um, and, and so, you know, part of that, I, I think reclaiming part of that and just going, "Man, we need to just talk about how does this actually play out in the real world," and, and help equip people to do that. Mm-hmm. And so I'm, I'm very passionate about that these days.
The, the other thing with, just with John in particular, like, you know, I prayed for you this morning and it was... I've been thinking about it today a little bit, that because of your, um, uh, position- In academia, because of your, uh, all of the things you've written, uh, you have access to people, uh, and ideas that the local church doesn't have access to.
And so th- th- this is an admiration thing and a, and a, like, go get 'em thing, because you do have, uh, an incredible platform to reach people that I'm not gonna reach, uh, because they'll listen to you. And, uh, you, you have their [01:26:00] ear, uh, in, in, in the form of faith. And so I just think that's such a, a fantastic thing of thinking about how different leaders in different, uh, contexts and capacities or whatever can reach different kinds of people.
And, uh, so I'm just, I'm super encouraged by you, your ministry.
John Dickson: I love you too, mate. Thanks, buddy.
Danielle Hartland: Okay. All right, we're gonna end there. We wanna, uh, honor, uh, John's time. He's gonna preach tomorrow, so we wanna get him out of here. Um, thank you so much- Yeah, thank you ... for spending tonight with us. I know that was a sacrifice on top of everything else you've been doing this weekend.
It's been- Right ... an honor. Uh, and thank you guys, those of you who submitted questions. If, uh, we had some lingering ones, we'll try to get at them through a blog, um, here in the next few weeks. Um, again, you can catch up with Dr. John through his podcast, Undeceptions, where he explores some aspect of life, faith, or history, culture, or ethics that's either much misunderstood or mostly forgotten.
And for Pastor Derek, our podcast, Reinventing Church, season three launches in September, but we'll have a few bonus episodes sprinkled throughout the summer, including this [01:27:00] one. Um, you can subscribe to both those podca- podcasts wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks so much for joining us.
Derek Sanford: Thanks, everybody.
Bye.