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Welcome to Trendy Words, the podcast about words and phrases that are popular in business and marketing, but are often misleading, meaningless, or outright bullshit. We talk about these words and what we could be writing or saying instead that is more effective.
00:01.68
Andrew Monro
Welcome to Trendy Words, the podcast about the meaningless, misleading, and bullshit words we use in business marketing and what we can do about them. My name is Andrew, copywriter and foe of CFOs everywhere. Our word for this episode is safe.
00:18.05
Andrew Monro
And I'm joined today by my guest, Jim Compton-Hall. Hi, Jim.
00:22.42
Jim
Hello. Hi, nice to be here.
00:24.86
Andrew Monro
Yeah, i'm really I'm really glad to have you on. i've I've known Jim for, feel like a few years now.
00:28.52
Jim
Yeah.
00:33.14
Andrew Monro
we met We met once drinking at a bar with other copywriters in London, I think.
00:37.67
Jim
Classic copywriters.
00:38.61
Andrew Monro
Yeah, yeah, copywriters drinking somewhere.
00:39.80
Jim
It's what we do.
00:40.88
Andrew Monro
yeah, yeah. I've known you for a little while, but why don't we start things off by you sharing for everybody else who you are and what you do?
00:45.40
Jim
Mm-hmm.
00:50.96
Jim
Yeah, sure. so yeah, my name's Jim. I run what I call a micro agency called Jim Writes Stuff, where we effectively handle all things copy for our clients from sort of tone of voice development right through to, you know, the nitty gritty of writing effective websites and things like that.
01:13.93
Andrew Monro
Cool. You've been doing that for, I forgot how long you've been doing that for now.
01:17.23
Jim
Oh, a little while now. the The business has been going since 2016. So we're we're coming up to a 10 year anniversary.
01:22.09
Andrew Monro
Right.
01:25.04
Andrew Monro
Hmm. So yeah, actually thinking about that, you've probably been doing the, the, this work for about as long as I have, because I think 2016 is about when I started copywriting, and running my own business.
01:34.27
Jim
yeah
01:35.54
Andrew Monro
Yeah. Well, that's really cool.
01:39.64
Jim
Yeah, it's it's been journey.
01:39.69
Andrew Monro
Anyway, yeah, yeah. yeah Yeah, it's definitely been one of we've feels like so much has changed since we would have started in this work as well.
01:49.98
Jim
Yeah, for sure. But then so much has stayed the same. It's kind of it's a very interesting one.
01:55.17
Andrew Monro
Yeah.
01:58.71
Andrew Monro
And certainly in terms of to get into our word for today, safe, I feel like the issues around this are very much classic.
02:03.23
Jim
Yes.
02:09.40
Andrew Monro
They have not changed a whole lot. It's certainly in the time that I've been doing this work.
02:15.21
Jim
Yeah, I was going to say, I think our time, I think this this has been a problem since since we would have started. i suspect talk from talking to people have been around a little bit longer, indeed have already reached their retirement now, but back in the day, you know the everyone's favorite phrase, that maybe this wasn't a thing. and And the word safe has become this term, this crutch that but people are using since maybe you know the mid to late 2000s.
02:50.29
Andrew Monro
So how do you find that people are using safe wrong?
02:56.42
Jim
I think for me, it's the fact that they're using it at all. But yeah, I guess it is what they're using to describe as safe. So really the biggest issue is safe is this word that you see a lot in advertising agencies and and also, you know, advertising folk on LinkedIn and events and whatever, throwing it about willy nilly.
03:22.10
Jim
And the problem is when we use it in an ad agency, we're using it to mean a boring idea. know, so it's kind of easy to sell. It's bit dull.
03:32.05
Jim
We don't really believe in it, but we've got to show them something that isn't one of our really cool ideas. And hopefully they'll detect one the cool ideas instead.
03:43.64
Jim
What a client hears when they hear the word safe is, oh, it's warm, it's fuzzy, it's comfortable, it's easy, it it's guaranteed, it's recommended. As soon as the word safe comes up, that's what the client is choosing.
03:57.42
Jim
and not But for us, that's the one we don't like. That's the one we don't believe in. That's the one that's not going to be effective. We're using language that is effectively training our clients to do the complete opposite of what we want them to do.
04:11.95
Andrew Monro
Yeah, we we don't view safe and in in at all in the same way that our clients, especially in B2B spaces would.
04:22.48
Jim
absolutely yeah we we mean ineffective when we say so and if you if you went to a client and said yeah here's here's some ideas we really love and here's an idea which we think is kind of ineffective they're not going to choose the ineffective one but if you say to them here's something a little bit safer they'll go oh well we'll take the safe one that's safe that's guaranteed we're definitely getting return on investment so you know I think this whole idea that we've we've just chosen completely the wrong word here.
04:55.04
Jim
um And part of that is maybe because as creatives, we're not, or sometimes we're not, depends on the person, as commercially minded. So people then go into like fluffy language sort of say, yeah, safe, but but really jumping in on the commercial language to say ineffective or bad return on investment or, you know,
05:17.07
Andrew Monro
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
05:20.20
Jim
It will require further investment later to make the same results. But if we can talk about things in that way, then, and I know this for later in the, in the podcast, but I think it's the fact that we've sort of take, uh, we're just sort of taking, oh, what do we talk to each other about?
05:36.72
Jim
What creators say to each other are safe, because that means boring to us.
05:39.54
Andrew Monro
And and it's it's fundamentally different from the way that I think SAFE is interpreted in corporate life, where your concern is perhaps less about making sure that the customer is delighted and more around making sure that your coworkers aren't too upset or that you're good you present you come up with something that's disagreeable to them.
06:04.36
Andrew Monro
Yeah. But more of like safe is keeping your boss happy.
06:06.18
Jim
Yeah,
06:10.03
Jim
it is, but it's kind of like, yeah, when when we when we present a safe idea, I use we to mean the advertising industry, I like to think I don't present what i would yeah people say are safe ideas.
06:25.75
Jim
But when you know when we present safe ideas, what we're doing really is saying we we don't We don't believe in the client's ability to pick good work, or we don't believe in our own ability to sell good work.
06:38.23
Jim
So we need another idea that, yeah, we don't believe in, but it will be easy to sell.
06:44.95
Andrew Monro
I remember way back and i I'm attributing this to the agency that way back in the day did that really famous Hertz ad campaign that was along something along the lines of we're second best so that we try harder.
06:57.96
Jim
Yeah.
07:03.55
Jim
Avis. Hertz was number one.
07:04.64
Andrew Monro
Avis, sorry, yes. Yes.
07:07.65
Jim
Yeah.
07:08.60
Andrew Monro
i Okay, i stand corrected.
07:07.92
Jim
Mm-hmm.
07:12.02
Andrew Monro
But I remember hearing somewhat anecdotally that apparently the way that that pitch had been done is a way that a method that I have seen used a few times now in my life, which is that when you're trying to pitch a client, especially on a large campaign project,
07:32.84
Andrew Monro
you present them with three ideas. There's the idea that you think that they would probably come up with themselves.
07:35.40
Jim
Yeah.
07:39.60
Andrew Monro
There's the idea that you think that they should probably should be doing. And then there's the idea that you, the agency, really would rather be doing. And ah ah supposedly the we're second best so that we try harder was the latter was the last one.
07:56.60
Andrew Monro
It was really what the agency wanted to be doing. And apparently the client, yeah, evis had the the courage to say yes to that.
08:06.62
Jim
Yeah, and I mean, I think in terms of exact number of ideas, because I think you'll find slightly different policies per agency where you're in them. and they and And often it's not a policy, it's just that, okay, how much time do we have?
08:19.03
Jim
What do we think the client's gonna buy? Or let's hedge our bets, let's give them two or three ideas. Sometimes it's just, look, we don't have time, let's just give them what we got or you know whatever it is. i think we with Avis, that's a really interesting one because I doubt they went to Avis and said,
08:37.00
Jim
Uh, you know, we've got this amazing, we're number two, so we try harder campaign, but we've also got a really safe idea if you want safety, because if they'd done that, they'd have said, oh, we'll take the safe idea, please.
08:48.91
Andrew Monro
Yeah, they probably didn't use the word safe, I imagine.
08:51.49
Jim
Yeah.
08:51.77
Andrew Monro
but But I feel like that very much like highlights that when you give choices that there's often a safe idea within that if you're giving your client options.
09:03.09
Jim
Yeah, I think so.
09:03.68
Andrew Monro
Yeah.
09:04.38
Jim
And I think if you're giving options, there is often a tendency to say, okay, well, this is the more kind of maybe be easier to pull off right now, cheaper from a creative production standpoint, more normal.
09:20.62
Jim
You know, if the client's not ready to, to, you know, go for something else, if they haven't advertising a whole educational process, right. So if they're not at that point, it might just be that actually this year we need to go to something a little bit more.
09:35.54
Jim
uh, normal, a little bit more, not even normal, just it's what everyone else is doing. Right.
09:40.26
Andrew Monro
Yeah.
09:40.62
Jim
We don't believe it's going to be the best campaign ever, but it will keep, it will keep the sales coming in until next year. And then we can sell them to something big when we've had a bit more time with them.
09:48.91
Andrew Monro
Normal. Yeah. Normal essentially meaning that you're going to do what everybody else is doing in the market, which means that you're not, it it's not, it's not bad, but it means that you're completely undifferentiated.
09:57.55
Jim
Yeah.
10:04.33
Jim
You're undifferentiated. You might not get noticed. you You might not get remembered. So that's probably the worst one is if people see your ads, they engage with that. But then because it's the same as all your competitors, they don't remember it's your ad and they attribute your messaging to one of your competitors.
10:23.12
Jim
And you're effectively just paying to advertise a competitor.
10:25.98
Andrew Monro
Yeah.
10:27.13
Jim
But yeah, some, sometimes it might be like, we've got to get something out because if you don't advertise a tool, that's an even bigger problem.
10:33.51
Andrew Monro
Yeah. Any advertising is is better than none.
10:34.57
Jim
So ah exactly. So yeah.
10:37.12
Andrew Monro
But if you want to if you want to get beyond that, then you have to put ah ah quite a bit more work into it.
10:42.88
Jim
yeah And I think the language we use to describe these ideas, you know, the the way we're talking about now is like, oh yeah, this is what everyone's doing. Maybe it won't be quite as effective. Maybe it'll lead to these issues, but we'll keep the sales ticking, right?
10:57.63
Jim
but That's the kind of thing which should be, or how we should talk about it, I guess. But yeah, we use the word safe and that's codified in certain ways, which just make clients go safe. That's recommended, right? That's what we want. like That's the idea.
11:11.99
Jim
And then, you know, especially if you're saying, yeah oh, we've got this, which is a little bit riskier. It's like, no, don't don't call it riskier if you believe in it.
11:21.63
Jim
You know, it if you believe in it, as advertising, we're the professionals.
11:21.88
Andrew Monro
Mm-hmm.
11:25.19
Jim
If you believe in it, don't call it risky. Call it, this is our recommended approach because of these reasons. And then, you know, call the less though so boring kind of idea to say, this is probably not going to be as effective.
11:40.14
Andrew Monro
Mm-hmm.
11:40.61
Jim
But it's the fact that we're using that word safe, which is really, I think, messing with our ability to sell the ideas that we think will work versus, you know, what what everyone is always complaining about. Oh, it's all ideas are all the same or there's no idea at all. It's just we're just pumping out generic work over and over. And so, well, if you're telling people that's the safe work, they're going to choose safe.
12:07.37
Andrew Monro
You do ads a fair bit more than I do.
12:10.53
Jim
Yep.
12:10.68
Andrew Monro
And one of the things that I encounter, and maybe I want to know if you experienced this as well, is one of the other by words or ways that safe in this, it meaning ineffective, shows up is now when we talk about using data-driven.
12:26.39
Andrew Monro
as a as the adjective when we talk about choices or decisions or tasks is that, yeah, I've been known to notice that when they talk about data-driven, often that they mean something that's based on data that everybody else has and therefore is almost bound to produce something completely undifferentiated.
12:26.68
Jim
yep
12:48.79
Jim
Yeah, I've seen that, but I've heard that from clients asking about ideas and campaigns. Is this data driven? Is this backed by data? Where's the evidence of this?
13:01.56
Jim
And on one hand, I think, you know, a conversation about why is this going to work is one of the most important things that needs to happen when when pitching an idea.
13:15.61
Jim
But as you say, if it's based on data that everyone else has, and then the idea on how to use that data is fairly generic, then what you'll see is, yeah, the question is this data driven will lead to it.
13:31.46
Jim
You know, this is the same stuff that all your competitors are doing.
13:35.00
Andrew Monro
And I think the the problem that we have as well is that there's a difference when we look at data as copywriters and any kind of take any kind of creative marketer.
13:42.73
Jim
Hmm.
13:44.99
Andrew Monro
We might look at the same data that the client does and look at it a completely different way because the client might look at, say, like a normal distribution of information and say, all right, well, we obviously want to go somewhere in the middle of the the classic bell curve.
13:59.99
Jim
Uh-huh.
14:00.34
Andrew Monro
And what I've noticed is like the really the the really great creatives will look at that data and being like, we don't want to look at what's in the middle. We want to see what's on the edges. We want to see on which there is some data.
14:12.72
Andrew Monro
It's not not completely like without any kind of basis, but we're looking for edge cases. We're looking for areas that are underserved or things that are clearly out there that aren't receiving a tremendous amount of attention where there's space to move in.
14:29.39
Jim
Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. And I think you see companies, professionals doing that very thing in other areas.
14:40.71
Jim
But then, you know, I think when it comes to advertising, of course, companies want the biggest possible audience across the most mainstream possible message or whatever it is. and And so they go, well, what's that?
14:54.75
Jim
What's the bulk of it? And then they go, let's, let's see something around that, which, well, that's what I was doing. So you can have a very small slice of a big pie, or you can have the entire medium sized pie, which works out to be much bigger.
15:07.52
Andrew Monro
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
15:09.10
Jim
But you see, like, I mean, SEO comes to mind. You don't go for the keywords that everyone is going for.
15:16.70
Andrew Monro
yeah
15:16.91
Jim
yeah You look at the data and you instinctively, you know, it's become instinct to say, when that is too competitive. That does not work for us. But this word over here, we can rank off that and that will get us loads of views and visits.
15:34.04
Andrew Monro
Yeah. And I feel that that that's even that's becoming more difficult because I think that the SEO is such at a point where there's all almost sort of a reduction in the amount of those little edge words where you can get a way in, uh, because everything's sort of become oversaturated in the center and there's hardly any room.
15:45.89
Jim
Yep.
15:51.80
Andrew Monro
So yeah, it, yeah, yeah, yeah.
15:52.55
Jim
I think everyone's learned what they're doing. theyve They've kind of filled all the spaces.
15:57.06
Andrew Monro
yeah
15:58.64
Jim
But yeah, if you if you went to someone, most companies and you said, oh, this this word, which has, yeah, it has a hundred thousand searches a month, but you know it costs you 400 pounds per click.
16:15.37
Jim
Most companies are going to say well, that's dumb. Look at the next word, which is sure it's only 20,000 searches, but it only costs 50 pence per click.
16:25.74
Andrew Monro
Mm-hmm.
16:26.42
Jim
So, you know, and and if you were to call that first one safe, I think in this today, know, most companies are like, that's not safe, you idiot. But Maybe a little while ago when people weren't as clued up on SEO, they might have said, oh, that's the safe one. Okay, we'll go for that.
16:45.80
Jim
You know, it's sort of about this this language we're using is just sending people in the wrong directions. And certainly not where we're trying to put them as professionals, where where we think that they will be most successful.