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Get a seat at the table and build the design career you want. This podcast is for designers looking to break in, level up, and take control of their careers—whether you're freelancing, climbing the corporate ladder, or just trying to get noticed. Every two weeks, we dive into career fundamentals, design best practices, and the hottest topics in the design community.
I had some frustrating lessons. Yeah. Maybe more specifically on ads that it doesn't have to be pretty or on brand Really? Which is which is frustrating because I think the most the highest converting ads I've ever done have looked We
Nick:are kind of live now. This is what I always wanted to say. We are live. And we're officially live. We are officially live.
Nick:Exactly. I mean, this is just an experiment.
Tyler:Hello. Hello. Hello. Welcome back, Nick, to our fair my actually, my favorite time, and I I know it is yours, design table podcast episode. New one in the bank.
Tyler:Yes.
Nick:Yes. Yes. Yes. I like that bank. It's it's indeed my favorite time of the week as well.
Tyler:Good. And I think this episode, we're gonna be spilling some of the sauce. Think collectively, we've had well, collectively. We I think we each have, like, a decade of experience in terms of doing design things in general. Yep.
Tyler:And today, we're gonna be spilling tea on conversion hacks that we've had over that long that long decade of our of our experience. Yeah. Getting into, like, things like ads, checkouts, upsells, all all the things, which I'm excited to dive in with you.
Nick:Yeah. Oh, yeah. Very exciting because this is where you make the money as a as a designer for yourself or for your customers, your manager, your whoever. So this is going to be a very important one. So I I really urge our listeners to take a seat and pay pay close attention to it.
Nick:Buckle up. Get ready. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Nick:Yeah. Exactly.
Tyler:Perfect. I think we're gonna jump into ads because that's Yeah. Long standing history with ads. Started out making flash banner ads back in the day all the way up to, like, JPEGs, PNGs, statics. Mhmm.
Tyler:Though I'm not so sure what we're doing if we're still doing flash banner ads.
Nick:I hope not. No. Well, I I started with flash banners as well, and and I remember, like, from really early days at back then, we were already talking about banner blindness and that kind of stuff, which is probably something you would consider when wanting to create a high converting ad advertising somewhere.
Tyler:Yeah. Exactly. And I think that's when it was I think it was the height of when Google paid ads were working really well. To your point, they were not I think now, I think, at least for us, independently, like, seeing an ad, I'm never clicking on that thing. But I think they were super useful Same.
Tyler:Back in the day, are they still converting really well? They probably do are useful, I guess. I know the content game has become king nowadays, but I think they're still useful as well.
Nick:I think you can see that that they aren't working as well as they used to to work because you see, for example, YouTube ads, and they're longer, you know, in terms of duration. So I feel like that's a way to earn more money. Like, let's just show them longer. And then the longer you display them, the more likely someone is to click, maybe out of boredom.
Tyler:Yeah.
Nick:And that might be because of the underlying issue of people being sick and tired of ads.
Tyler:Yeah. I think they're more useful for retargeting, to be fair. I think they're like, once you've seen the initial ad, like, what's what's the rule? Once you've seen once you've had at least 11 touch points, then you'll be tempted to buy, but it's only after those 11 touch points. So a banner ad could be can cross off at least one or two of those those 11 that needs to be crossed.
Nick:Yeah. Do do do you think it's it's helpful for for our audience to learn some of the the keywords here, like retargeting and ROI and that kind of stuff, or do we think they know what that is
Tyler:what it is? We can go over it. Yeah. We can go over at least from my yeah. I we can go over, like, what that looks like.
Tyler:So, initially, you have your first you have top of funnel. We were talking about, like, not being unaware of the brand per se at all. Yeah. And then just giving whether that's my banner ad and and and YouTube ad, just getting in that first kinda touch point, understanding what the brand is. And once once they've seen it at least once, people leverage something called a pixel, which essentially allows facilitates retargeting, which which means just following up with subsequent ads that are not the first one they've seen.
Tyler:So they have a a variation or or a different pitch of the product that they'll see a couple times. So they'll have the initial one and then a set of eight or 10 different variations over and
Nick:over again until the please buy me action is is crossed. Yeah. So so, basically, you do not ask people to buy right away with the very first ask. It was more of becoming aware that you exist. Yeah.
Nick:Right? And then at the end, you change the the ads to be more call to action like.
Tyler:Yeah. Exactly. Because, again, we're you're deal you're asking someone to buy something that they don't know. They've never heard of you. Mhmm.
Tyler:It's like if I came up to you randomly in the street and stopped you to to buy my, I don't know, my hot tub Because I'm a hot tub owner, apparently. You'd you'd think I would it was strange. So but I think you have to build up that rapport.
Nick:Yeah. True. True. I mean, you start with with an ad of a nice summer evening and your your hot tub, you know, just setting the scene of, oh, that's nice after a warm day and after lots of work, you can just relax and then but you're not not showing anything about model numbers or whatever. I think that's something for retargeting when someone's further down the funnel.
Nick:I feel like these these basic words are very important, you know, targeting, retargeting, top of funnel, and lower in the funnel. So, I mean, how would you explain the funnel to to someone?
Tyler:A funnel is essentially just, like, problem like, brand unaware. Yeah. Never heard of you. And then maybe problem aware, but they need a solution. And then solution aware, and you're giving them that.
Tyler:And then the bottom end is where you kind of suck them in. Right.
Nick:Right. Yeah. So it's it's it's basically like bringing someone on a river, like, downstream. Right? So you suck really, really broad, and then it's it comes narrower, and then you try to convert them.
Nick:So when you talk about conversion rates, like, someone I'm basically saying someone converts when they click and buy. You know? Mhmm. So when when you place an ad top of funnel and they don't click on it, they don't buy yet, it's not a lost conversion per se. Like, they can still convert later on in the funnel.
Nick:Exactly.
Tyler:Those are, like first, there's awareness, and then there's, like, oh, I'm interested, which is like the second rung. And then maybe I desire it a bit. You're getting me you're reeling me in with the and then the action is the click, which is the conversion piece.
Nick:Okay. I mean, so that's good to remember as well that conversion doesn't need to mean a a purchase. Like, clicking on it can be a conversion goal as well, and you just have to be aware of what your goal is.
Tyler:Exactly. Because it could be a purchase. That's, like, probably the it could be a purchase. It could be a sign up as well. It just depends what the business sees as as a win.
Nick:Yeah. That's something you have to as a designer, when you work on this, I think you have to play pay close attention to what the goal is for your stakeholder and perhaps have, like, something like a kickoff meeting, talk with a marketing person if your company has a marketing department perhaps just so you align on on the goals. Think that's very important for ads and landing pages and all the things we're going to discuss today. Yep. For sure.
Tyler:Yeah. And I'm curious any hot tips for actually designing the physical ad itself. I think it's very important to
Nick:be aware of the the environment someone is in when they see the ad. So we drove to a theme park last Sunday, and then you you have the the on ramp, like, on the highway, and then you you make a turn like it rotates, and then you and, like, above the highway, you see this massive billboard. And my wife and I were both reading the the billboard. Like, that's super dangerous base, actually. You know?
Nick:You're making a turn speeding up, and then you're reading a thing, and then we are still discussing what the thing on the billboard set. So it really grabbed our attention. But we are in a car. So when it's a billboard, when you're driving, you're distracted. You know, you need to have big letters like your the the the payoff from our ad needs to be clear right away.
Nick:No small letters, that kind of stuff. And same thing applies for someone being outdoors on a festival, and they have the the app, like the festival app to order food or to look at the the the timing tables for performance performances. You know, there's might be bright sunlight. There's loud music in the background. So with that in mind, you might not have a video ad or something where sound is important because they cannot hear.
Nick:Contrast has to be high because of the outdoor sun, or maybe it's raining the other way around. So it's very important to be aware, like, who's going to see this and where are they when they see this.
Tyler:Very fair. So essentially, like, a stop the scroll moment. Whatever that Yeah. Depending whatever environment. I mean, stop the scroll is on your phone, but that's still up that same strategy is applicable wherever you go, wherever that kind of ad pops up.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. True. And it might be a silly example, you know, people being outdoor and people being in a car, but, you know, that's still advertising. Same thing is also very interesting on social media where sometimes an ad really blends in with the application.
Nick:You have this on on Twitter and on Reddit. On Reddit, sometimes an ad just looks like a post or a comment underneath a post, and then you click on it because I'm not sure about you, but when I go on Reddit, at least when I go through comments, I like to close the comments when I've read them just to not be overwhelmed. You know? And then I click on the advertisement by accident just to close them, and then it opens, and then I'm converted. You know?
Nick:Because they they are very well placed, but then at the same time, you know, you have accidental clicks that makes people angry. So I'm not sure if that really is a good way to do things, but then also you don't want to make them too obvious of being an ad because people might not click either. You know? So not sure what the middle ground is there, but maybe you have something interesting to say there about blending in or standing out for an ad. Like, what's the best thing to do?
Tyler:I'll tell you. Probably not to blend in because I my son, whenever he uses his iPad, he watches He's three.
Nick:Right? Three years old? Three year
Tyler:He's three years old. Trying to limit the the iPad, but when he does, he uses the kid version of it. So he has his Amazon Kids to his tablet, and they embed game ads that look like videos that he clicks on.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. That's annoying.
Tyler:It's lucky. If you wanna hear from my son, he's frustrated because he's waiting for the video, not whatever you're trying to sell him, which he has. Yeah. He doesn't have the ability to purchase or convert
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:As much as I think the the business is trying to serve those ads are. Yeah. So I I think I think it's good a good idea to be clear that this is something that we're it's an ad, and I'm trying to sell you something. But make me a good offer or hook me in with a good piece of copy.
Nick:Yeah. Oh, yeah. For sure. For sure. Yeah.
Nick:I think that's very important. I mean, we could we could go on and on about ads, but isn't the landing page basically one big ad?
Tyler:It is. I would say, I think it's all a flow. Right? So, like, once you've seen the ad, you're gonna click it and you go somewhere.
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:And, generally, it's to some kind of landing page. And that could be different depending on the service that you're providing. So for ecommerce, that could just be a product page.
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:And then choose your it could be T shirt, choose your size, checkout, and you're good to go. It could be for a SaaS product or a service. But in general, I think there's some some good hacks and tricks that we've learned over the couple years to to optimize that landing page. I think that's the crux of the entire experience. It's a landing page, which is essentially just a pitch for your business.
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:So it generally can contains, like, a hero. It's like, here is the big thing that we want you to buy. Here's the giant h one title, which which is the hook. It can often contain a video. Maybe just like a video explainer of what the product is.
Tyler:It could be a VSL, which is a a video sales letter of just someone pitching the product or service. Mhmm. And then it goes into just, like, the benefits for you as the user. Just it can be quite lengthy. And I I'm seeing the theme now among a lot of businesses is the longer the landing page, the better.
Tyler:I'm not sure if you've seen the same.
Nick:Well, that's what I wanted to say. I'm not sure if people actually mentioned it as a goal. Like, let's make it as long as we can and as and as as thorough as we can. But I do notice that some experts, you know, that I that I know that are very successful in what they do, they have landing pages where I'm like, will this ever end? Like, it just it keeps going and going and going.
Nick:I myself usually try to keep it short because people don't really have the time. People don't really like to read the whole thing. So I'm not sure what the theory is there. Like, is it actually proven to make it longer to explain more?
Tyler:I think the theory is that, like, you haven't been convinced yet. So there's more to be convincing. So Okay. Generally, your landing page is sprinkled with CTAs or your your button, which will drive you to which is the conversion facilitator. But, generally, you have again, like, the hero is, like, the emotional part.
Tyler:Like, let me if I don't get you with the emotion, then I have to get you with the logical part, which is, like, here are the different things. Here's why you should buy. Here are the different features it has, etcetera. And, generally, if you keep scrolling, you haven't been convinced yet. So that's part of the strategy that I've heard is that you just keep on trying to convince them until eventually they click.
Tyler:So the longer so the strategy there is the longer, the better. Because if you're short and you haven't convinced them, they're gonna bounce, which is another Right. Another term. Bouncing means just leaving the page.
Nick:Yeah. Quite literally, they bounce away. Yeah. Well, I I can see that theory being true for something very expensive, you know, like a coaching service or or a design service, basically, when there's a lot of, you know, talk about, like, how does this work and what if I don't like it and how you know, the step by step approach and that kind of thing or a very expensive course or a boot camp perhaps. But I don't think it needs to be very long when when you're buying, like, a throwaway item, you know, a cheap thing that you can get everywhere.
Nick:That's true. Let's say, you know, clothing or T shirt or whatever. So yeah. Yeah. Wait.
Nick:I'm I'm curious. Like, you sometimes see these posts on LinkedIn where someone is trying to be an expert. Like, here is the anatomy of a landing page, and then they start to explain all these things you need to put on a landing page, and I think we all get it. But what's the what's the secret here to a good landing page from a designer's perspective? Let's say you're going to work on a landing page.
Nick:What will you do all the time?
Tyler:I think there's a difference between I think that we need to make a distinction between, like, what a website is and what a landing page is. I think they have two different functions. I think we get we get trapped in thinking that, like, you build a website and its core function is conversion when in reality, it's more of like a business card. It's this proof that the business exists. A landing page has one specific function, which is to convert Okay.
Tyler:To move someone past these different stages. So the last stage of the funnel. What's super I think top three things that are important for building a great landing page is, number one is having great copy. I think that's underrated. And I think it's the top thing you should focus on, which is, like, number one, it's your title, your subtitle, then the copy that's on the button or the CTA.
Tyler:Those are, like, the most important things. And then fourth might be an image of your product or a video, which is even better. Mhmm. I think over the years, I think focusing on buttons has been something that I spend a long time on because believe it or not, the shade, the color, whether or not the button has an arrow pointing right has increased or decreased the conversion rate. So you can get quite nerdy in in types of and how you craft the landing page.
Tyler:Right. And then we can get into experimentation afterwards as well. So what what's the the best button? So it depends. What I've seen is the green button is the winner in all cases.
Tyler:There's the the holy grail of the green button white text, white arrow pointing right. You've probably seen it across the board, but it should probably reflect the brand colors. If you wanna keep that brand consistency and build trust, it probably should be in line with the brand because it's gonna be Right. That's it's what they're gonna be experiencing after check after, like, they click that button, which is Mhmm. The checkout process, the receiving the product, and then whatever emails they receive, the experience after the click.
Tyler:And I think it should be super consistent. Right.
Nick:Alright. And you mentioned copy being super important. You know, I'm I imagine some designers now feeling a bit uncomfortable, like, but I'm a designer. But I I also know that designers should have a a say in the copy, at least have a run at the first version. What I always think is is important is to to speak your target audience's language, you know, in in the copy, and then at the same time to keep it short even though you we also just talked about making a landing page longer.
Nick:Like, I think if you write a paragraph of text for a landing page, you should look at it. And I I'm very convinced that you can take out 20% of the text of that one paragraph and then make it better that way just to make it more to the point.
Tyler:Yeah. I think paragraphs are something definitely you should avoid. No one's doing no one wants to be do work in in terms of being sold. Yeah. I think headings, bullet points, like scannable text is probably more ideal than long paragraphs in certain scenarios.
Nick:Yeah. Well, I I think par there's a place for paragraphs, for example, in the the problem statement where you try to, you know, be to to relate with your target audience where you talk about, you know, this certain problem, and and you make them more like, yes. That's what I have. Let's keep scrolling this page because I'm curious to see what they offer as a solution. You know, that's a place where you can probably have a paragraph, but also in FAQ sections and that kind of stuff.
Tyler:Yep. And also also something that I use also that I seem use widespread as well is, like, a personal letter to the to the user. It's like like, it could be a couple a couple of paragraphs long just like it's story based. So, like, hey. Enter persona here.
Tyler:I'm aware of this problem you have. I've had it to I've crafted the solution to it, etcetera, and then here is the solution. So it's it's more it seems more empathetic and more tailored to to me if I'm the if I'm the reader or the potential user of this product.
Nick:I mean, the the the storytelling makes sense that way also. You start with the problem. You have a solution for that problem, and here's how the solution to that problem works. Like, you start very big, and then you go smaller and smaller. I mean, you you shouldn't start your landing page with well, it also works with Microsoft Office.
Nick:You know? Well, okay. You know? But what are we talking about? Like, that's something like, a very specific feature that should go at the end of your landing page.
Nick:You know? You start with the benefits and then the features that make that benefit possible. And then as a part of the feature, you can mention something like, well, it works with Microsoft Office.
Tyler:Yeah. Exactly. I think we're buying the best sales technique on a landing page is selling the outcome, not the features. Like, to your point, like, we can get into the the it it works with Microsoft offers Office at the end, so you're not quite sold yet and if you need it to be. But it's it's what after I use x product, I get x outcome.
Tyler:Yeah. And that that could be the actual hook or a title of the of the landing page as well.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That that's true. Do do you think some type of, you know, h one, catchphrase catchphrases are overused?
Nick:No. I think people
Tyler:No. I think they're they're they I think they've been iterated over the years to know that they they work. Mhmm. What happens sometimes is that we get bored and wanna get crafty, and then Yeah. Learn something.
Tyler:And then you'll notice, like, hey. I'm really tired of using this these over 10 types of titles that I've been working over the years. Let me craft a new one, and then you'll see
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:The the conversion rate plummet.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Because maybe then I'm too close to the fire and looking at landing pages too often because I also think that the the selling the benefits part, like, it makes sense, but it can also make your h one of a landing page very fake. You know, when you mentioned something like your your management's done in minutes, not weeks. Like, sure.
Nick:I want my management to be done in minutes, not weeks, but I'm still still not sure. Like, are you offering a assistant or a piece of software, or do you want to do everything and I don't have to do anything? Like, that that's still fake. Mhmm. I think.
Nick:But at the same time, it also makes me want to find out more because I am kinda curious about about it. So that's where I always have the discussion with customers. Like, how specific do you want to make the hero section?
Tyler:I think it depends. I think the more focused it is, the more converse. Like, for example, if from targeting product designers who live in Netherlands sitting at a desk with a microphone as my heading. Yeah. That's me.
Tyler:It sounds like a it's it sounds like I'm talking directly to you Yeah. Versus, like, great for designers. You probably feel less spoken to if it's more vague. However, it cuts off some of the audience. So, like, your your total addressable market within that specific ad is gonna be narrow, but it might convert higher.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. I mean, that's also, I think, a beginner's mistake to try to be too broad, like being afraid to to cut people out because they're not in a good fit. You're wanting to appeal to to many people.
Tyler:Plus, like, to be fair, you can run multiple ads to different landing page that are tailored to different pieces of audience. Yeah. So if you're so if you do if you do wanna attract product designers in general Mhmm. Create 10 different variations of landing pages targeting those specific persona types. Right.
Tyler:Right. Right? Because you're generally not using just one single landing page and then never touching it. You're Yeah. Creating different variations for different cases.
Tyler:And, also, you're you're you're testing and iterating and changing and optimizing over time because you wanna get
Nick:the highest conversion rate possible. Yeah. I don't think that's something we do enough. I'm not sure why. Not sure if that's, like it's not that hard to do an AB test.
Nick:Right? It's not. And it's not also not that expensive, but still, I don't see many of my clients actually do a ton of AB testing.
Tyler:I think you should. I heard this thing from Russell Brunson Russell Brunson recently where he quoted someone. I can't remember the name. But, essentially, he was saying that running an AB test is, like, giving your yourself a raise every week.
Nick:Yeah. It's a successful one, for sure.
Tyler:If it's sure. Fifth successful one. Like, if you beat the last iteration, you're essentially giving yourself a raise because you've converted at a higher rate.
Nick:And it and then it's you know, it's it's it's an improvement you make, and it's going to work for, you know, for a very long time. It's not just a a onetime upgrade.
Tyler:And, also, like, why we do that is that you're never gonna nail it the first time.
Nick:That's that's true. That's one of the myths that we discussed recently. UX designers, they know UX, and they know everything. And the first try is going to be the best one, and they just know how it works. You know, that's not the case.
Tyler:Exactly. And then when you're testing, you're not I think it's sometimes we fall into, like, let's just redesign the entire landing page. What you're doing is you're you're swapping out portions of it. So you're testing the header, five different versions. And then you'll test, like, the benefits, a couple different versions.
Tyler:Because if you if you completely redesign the entire landing page and then the conversion drops or if it does better, you don't know what part of that new landing page is actually working.
Nick:Yeah. So keep it small. Like, change the headline. That's it for an AB test. Change the color of your button.
Nick:That's one test. So let's say someone does click on a purchase button. You can get all sorts of, let's say, checkout pages. You'd either have, I guess, something like a sign up page, like create your account, but also a checkout in the having your your list of clothing that you just want to pay for. Different different next steps, I guess, when you click the buy button.
Nick:Do you have any best practices from the decade of experience?
Tyler:I'll tell you one experiment that was surprising how well it did, and it was the smallest little tweak. It was actually two tweaks. So we had a it was a ecommerce site. There was a checkout process where you'd put in your billing address and then your credit card information. Yeah.
Tyler:After several different iterations, we tried so many like, shorter field length, longer, doing different images, etcetera. What actually worked was making the background of the fields gray. Really? Okay. For some reason, the gray backgrounds on on those specific fields increased the trust that facilitated more sign ups or people filling out their credentials and then making the purchase.
Tyler:Right. Top of that, adding a small lock icon in the middle of the screen was the winning variation. It was a smart it wasn't anything big. It was a color gray plus a lock Okay.
Nick:Which Does the lock the lock means secure? Exactly. Okay. Can can you can you help, you know, paint a bit more of a picture? Because, you know, we we don't have the an official example here, and some people are just listening on on a platform.
Nick:You you say, like, the text field having a gray background.
Tyler:Like, is that very subtle, like, just off white background, and and what's the surrounding background of the whole form? So not super light, not super dark, maybe somewhere in the middle. Mhmm. Probably in the the lighter side of the middle, which everything's pretty visible. The backgrounds of the fields are not white.
Tyler:They're that same gray.
Nick:Okay. Yeah. I know. Because you mentioned, like, the making the text fields gray, I assume you mean the the background color of the text field, or did did you mean the border?
Tyler:The entire canvas was gray. So imagine you have on the left hand side, you have a bunch of fields. The background of that area, it was gray as well as the text field as Right. Unaccessible. Like, it wouldn't pass the accessibility rules, but in that in that time period Interesting.
Tyler:And in the middle to the right of it was a little lock, and then to the right was the total amount that you had to pay. Right. So the left hand border the left hand side was all gray. The right was numbers, essentially.
Nick:Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Of course.
Nick:Like, say, your your very common, like, checkout page structure. Exactly. K. Like, one thing I think that's very closely related to the lock icon is to also have all sorts of icons for payment providers.
Tyler:Mhmm.
Nick:Just to show, like, hey. We accepted your payment methods. You know? That's also a good one. And and also things like next day delivery and thirty day return policy, like all the the little things that would put people at ease.
Nick:Like, well, okay. If I don't like it, I can always return it in the next thirty days, which basically all of the things you just mentioned except for the the strange gray input fields. Like, all the other things, they are all about trust and putting people at ease.
Tyler:So what is key. PayPal was a interesting one. Like, back in the day before PayPal was a thing, that was an interesting experiment. The fact that that PayPal was an option to pay versus just entering your credit card information, which it makes sense now because there's a there's a buffer between your payment and, like, PayPal is, like, this middle middle layer, which builds a bit more trust. But Yeah.
Tyler:I think at the time, like, PayPal with PayPal included into checkout process was, like, a 20% lift on conversion. For some reason, I was, like, very Yeah. I know now it's the standard, but back in the day, we didn't have we didn't have that as an option. And now we have, like, Apple Pay and these different other facilitators.
Nick:Yeah. True. What I noticed for some of the, like, the designer info product stuff that I have is adding PayPal as a payment option, increased conversion rates mostly because not everyone has a credit card. Mhmm. But then I think it would also have have increased the the conversion rate if we added basically any payment methods in addition to credit cards because there are always people more comfortable using that new payment methods compared to credit cards.
Nick:And then, again, you you also shouldn't just add everything, you know, because then that gets overwhelming with making your choice in the next step. You know? Choose your payment option. But it it it does show something interesting in terms of conversion is that you have to be aware of your target audience's preferences for certain things. It can be the copy on the landing page, but also, you know, payment options and delivery options.
Nick:And if you, for example, sell a service, you have to be aware of someone as a next step would like to do a live meeting. Yeah. Schedule your intro call. Or if someone wants to do more async work, you know, we'll add you to a Slack group or a Discord group because people might bounce because of, like, what you say. Like, okay.
Nick:Next step, the Zoom call. And they're like, well, I don't like it. You know? I don't want to do a Zoom call. And then they will bounce.
Nick:You know? So that's a bit of of user research, and I think will also help with conversion.
Tyler:Definitely. Yeah. I mean, you have to use your in like, research is, like, underrated, and sometimes you forget to do it. We are not the user, and we don't we're not the expert regardless of the job title that we hold.
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:Ask the user what they want, and then they'll they'll tell you. High level. Not always, but that'll get you closer to that conversion rate. They that ideal conversion rate other than if you didn't do any at all.
Nick:Yeah. Oh, that's true. I mean, that that's probably something worth an entire episode is that I think you have but we can discuss then very shortly here now is that you have three main inputs to make a design decision. First one is what users say. You know, that's what you're telling us now.
Nick:Like, I like to do this thing. Second one is what users actually do. Because sometimes they say a, and but they actually don't know they want something else. So what users do is things like you can measure it with analytics and stuff like Hotjar, you know, where you can and and Posthawk, I think, is another one where you just can see how people use your app. You can see if their if their mouse, their cursor, if it hovers a certain place quite long, it means that they're thinking, you know, that kind of stuff.
Nick:And then the third one is design knowledge and experience. You already mentioned, like, combined, we have twenty years of experience. Like, we probably know a thing or two, like, if about what works and what doesn't. You know, if you look at a certain page and you asked and I would ask you, like, what doesn't work here? I think you can point out five things, and at least three out of those five fixing three of out of those five things will mean an improvement in conversion rate.
Nick:And then two out of five might be a surprise, like something unexpected, like, you know, what you mentioned making a text fields gray. Like, that's not something you would recommend blindly. You know, that's something you have to figure out. So those three things, I think, are very important for ads, landing pages, check out, like, all the things we're discussing. You know?
Nick:Yeah. End of monologue.
Tyler:No. It's true. Like, that being said, like, we have this experience. We know, like, what are to get it to a certain point. Mhmm.
Tyler:And, to your point, it could be, like, we know the the five out of the five things to change, but depending on the who you're targeting, maybe the that one of the five needs to be a bit different to the Yeah. To the background grade point. So that comes that's come into the user research play, which is, like, getting it to that that perfect or almost perfect level.
Nick:Yeah. Oh, yeah. For sure. So how about we're now on like, we're discussing this in order of a user flow for you a customer journey. Right?
Nick:Advertising, landing on a page, deciding to buy, then you're on a checkout page. And on a checkout page, sometimes people try to sell me more.
Tyler:Yes. Yes. The famous upsell.
Nick:Yeah. Like, what are your thoughts there? Like, is that a dark pattern? Is that something shady? Are you abusing someone who's already in an emotional state of wanting to buy, or is it actually helpful because you help people get a better result?
Nick:I think it's helpful.
Tyler:I mean, the pattern nowadays is to focus on one product instead of, like if you imagine going to an ecommerce store, you have all a bunch of plethora, like a suite of product that they have. Now you there's paralysis by analysis. There's too many just too many options for me to choose. But if you're funneling me through to one specific product and you convince me, like, con to to purchase that one and then you upsell me something that's similar or that solves a different problem, I think it's better. Yeah.
Tyler:First of all, it converts better, and also I can decide to just skip it or not. So it's just here's an option. You can buy this too. It's also helpful. Yeah.
Tyler:And then they're not, like they don't have that glazed look over their eyes where they have, like, 17 things to buy. Just you're just offering here. People also buy this, and then it's a quick add
Nick:to Yeah. That's true. Like, I think it works very well when ordering groceries. Like, I like, once a week, I get my groceries delivered, and I've been using the same account for years. So then I make my list.
Nick:I click order, and then I get a a little upsell list like, hey. Didn't you forget these things? And then based on my purchase history, they recommend me very useful things, like when I forget forgot, you know, I don't know, block of cheese that I always get for you know, in my lasagna or whatever. You know? And then I'm like, oh, yeah.
Nick:Yeah. That's true. I've got it. Click add, and then it's purchased, but it's not something a an upsell in a traditional sense that they try and sell me something extra that I haven't used before. You know?
Nick:So in that case, it's useful. It gets very annoying when you order a pizza and you are hungry and it's all ready, you know, you you may have you made your list, like everyone's pizza is on the list, and then in the end, they're like, do you want to have this side dish? No. Okay. And then next week, do you want a drink?
Nick:No. And then they ask you, like, three or four times if you want something extra. Mhmm. Then it becomes very annoying. Yes.
Nick:You can abuse that tactic. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's it. Yeah.
Nick:Yeah. I mean, that there's a risk of you being a sleek, dark pattern designer.
Tyler:But I mean, the purpose the main goal I mean, you can be sleazy about it by adding seven points, five different steps. So it's like, oh, do want this? No? I want this? But, like, the truth is that you've gotten their attention.
Tyler:They've purchased from you. Now they're in a buying state. Yeah. It's better to ask them now than later because they have like, to be fair, they have other things to do. But you've Yeah.
Tyler:You've stopped the scroll. You've gone through the funnel or the flow. You've had them purchase. Now is the time to get them to buy. Yeah.
Tyler:Because they're gonna go on they're as soon as they leave, they're gonna go on with their day.
Nick:Yeah. So it's now or never
Tyler:is what you're saying? Essentially.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good one. One thing to keep in mind, and that's something I've learned the hard way as well, is that you can also go too far if you're a designer and you're offering services where you tell someone like, okay.
Nick:I'm going to do all your branding. By the way, do you want the logo too? That's extra. You know? That's just not smart.
Nick:Feels like I've I've had comments, like, back in the day when I was a junior designer from customers. Like, I thought this was included. You know? So, yes, upsell, very powerful. Smart thing to do during checkout, but, don't be enter bad words that will get us censored.
Tyler:I got you, Alan. It is?
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Nick:So don't don't be be a bad person there. You know? Be smart. I mean, we're talking about things to do, and now without really realizing it, I'm talking about things not to do. Like, do you have any any lessons found out the hard way?
Nick:Things that just don't work you want to talk about?
Tyler:I had some frustrating lessons. Yeah. Maybe more specifically on ads that it doesn't have to be pretty or on brand. Really? Which is which is frustrating.
Tyler:Because I think the most the highest converting ads I've ever done have looked the worst. Like, someone who doesn't have a design degree could have essentially designed the ad that I created, and it converted over my highly manicured typography, white space balanced CTA with the roundiest, roundiest corners and the brightest Yeah. Gradients, drop shadows.
Nick:It probably it probably was purple and used inter font. Comic Sans, maybe, and I'm not joking.
Tyler:Yeah. Yeah. Nice. I am not joking about that one. Yeah.
Tyler:Like, the main goal is to stop the scroll and sometimes, like not that you're designing something crappy on purses on purpose. Oh, and of course. It just however it looks whatever converts is the best design regardless if it's aesthetically not pleasing.
Nick:Yep. True. True. I mean, that's something that can make a group of designers feel unworthy, you know, if it's not pretty. I mean, then anyone else could have made it.
Nick:That's not true because designers are very much like tinkerers and and builders and crafters that make something possible to you know? I mean, it's not about being pretty. It's about making it work. But then also I'm thinking, like, why not both? You know?
Nick:That's I guess for for conversion rates, it's probably about the numbers. It's not it's less about feelings. It's about numbers.
Tyler:Yeah. That's the designer in you and and in all of us. We always wanna make it look great, but sometimes Yeah. We gotta hold back. And I'm curious, like, on your end, something that you learned that didn't you didn't you didn't think would go that certain way.
Tyler:I thought that I
Nick:want to sometimes I want to be too clever about hiding things. You know? We want to make things less overwhelming, lower the cognitive load. Let's hide everything behind collapsibles or tabs or, you know, that kind of stuff or modals, like, you know, click that question mark bubble, and then you get a modal with all the extra info. And then, you know, after extensive user testing, turns out, people say, like, I want just to have a big overview.
Nick:I don't like clicking and hiding and showing stuff. I just want to see it all so I can make my decision. So you can op overoptimize because of a design theory, You know? The design theory being people get overwhelmed. So let's hide stuff they don't need to see.
Nick:And especially for big purchases, people need to see everything. They have
Tyler:to true.
Nick:Know all the risks and that kind of stuff. Yeah. So that's that's my thing. You can be too much of a designer at times. That's
Tyler:fair. That's fair. You want the click that they click on as the CTA instead of the Yeah. Progressive ex exclude disclosure you have there.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, that's I mean, that's it. It's yeah. And you'll figure that out by talking to people.
Nick:Yes. I mean, I found it out that way. So that's I mean, that that's my main tip or the anti lesson, basically, like, things not to do. Speak to users.
Tyler:Yeah. Yeah. That's the insight here.
Nick:Yeah. I mean, that's something you learn in school, but it is true. It is. It is. Yeah.
Nick:Yeah. I mean, this this feels like it's a it's a real master class on, you know, conversion rates. Like, I I think I've learned a thing or or two or three from you just now in in what what has been, like, forty forty five minutes, something like that.
Tyler:Yeah. I think it's likewise. I think it's that's another insight as well, collaboration. Some people Yeah. You don't hold the all the knowledge.
Tyler:It's good to pull it from different sources as well.
Nick:Yeah. I mean, that's that's my risk, but quite quite frankly, because I'm currently right now, I'm home alone. You know, it's the end of the day. You know, daughter is at her grandma's. Wife is at work, so I'm just sitting here.
Nick:Like, I'm not in a coworking space, And you can get stuck in your own in your own ways, like, if you're just design, design, design the whole day, but having a call like this, basically or maybe just with a a group of designers or, like, once a month, have a, like, a group review session or something. I think that's very useful just to have a a fresh insight. Yeah. I'm with you. 100%.
Nick:Speaking of learning things from other designers, you know, next episode, we are going to talk about UX coaching, which is basically the same thing. Know, you talk to a designer and they you explain your your challenges and you get some help, some fresh insights. We're going to talk about, like, the the most common tips, the best tips, the most insightful stuff that we've seen from you and I both being a coach for entry level designers, I guess. I'm not sure if you you coach other other designers as well, but it's mostly been entry level designers and and
Tyler:Chris, which is for me. Junior and mid level, I think, my end. But Yeah. We're gonna I guess we're following the theme of spilling the sauce, I guess. Yeah.
Tyler:Yeah. Which I love.
Nick:Well, you know, that's very interesting because we we think that's the best thing to do. You know? That's we think people that's what people want, you know, people listening to this this this design table podcast, but we are open for feedback suggestions. Like, if you have I'm sure people have questions where we we look at at each other, and we're like, that's something we can fill an entire episode with, you know, unexpected question. So, you know, feel free to let us know.
Nick:Right? I think yeah. I mean, we're open for that.
Tyler:Rest of thing in the comments. Send us a message via LinkedIn, Twitter, on all the things. Yeah. Love new ideas. Something we can talk about.
Nick:Most peep most people send us questions on LinkedIn so far, at least. So far? So far. Yeah. Yeah.
Nick:I'm not sure if people have a preference, but this is basically also about conversion. Like, you have to give people a few options, but not too many that they get paralysis. Yeah. Oh, no. I mean, I mean, I'm I'm serious about it.
Nick:Like, you can get overwhelmed overwhelmed by choice. Yeah. So let's try LinkedIn. I mean, that's somewhere in the description.
Tyler:We'll put it in the description for sure. Yeah. Put our links to our respective LinkedIn and send us a message with ideas or or just to start up a chat. I think that's great.
Nick:Yeah. Yes. And what's also going to be very helpful for us, if you have a moment, is to give us a five star review on, you know, what are all main platforms? Spotify, Apple Podcasts, you know, the the big places. All of them.
Tyler:All of them. We're there. If think we're somewhere, we are.
Nick:Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Because then, the thing is you help us, but then we are able to help more people because the good review will probably get us pushed to more feeds and that kind of stuff, and then we can help other people.
Nick:So it's you helping us, us helping more people, which is, I think, beneficial for all.
Tyler:It's the end goal, I think.
Nick:Yeah. It's about giving back to the community.
Tyler:Great. Well, this is a great episode. I love this one. Yeah. Same here.
Tyler:Giving you all the advice that learned a couple of things from you, learned a couple of things from me. And if there's any hot dips, send us those as well. We'll have
Nick:to hear some. Right. Alright. Well, then I'll see you Okay. I'll hear you in two weeks for the next episode about UX coaching.
Nick:Alright.
Tyler:See you then. Bye. That was a great episode. So if you like this content and wanna hear more, please like and subscribe.
Nick:Yeah. And if you want to see more, please go to designtablepodcast.com, Spotify, Apple Music, all the big players, and more.