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The Real Estate Addicts (REA) podcast is a must-listen for anyone interested in real estate development, investment, construction and entrepreneurship. Each episode dives into a wide range of industry topics and features conversations with savvy, successful entrepreneurs who candidly share their career paths, challenges, breakthroughs, and the stories behind the remarkable companies they’ve built. Expect big personalities, thoughtful insights, and conversations that both educate and inspire.
Co-hosted by Ray Hurteau, Dan Rubin (Instagram: @rhinvestgroup), and Marc Savatsky (Instagram: @choose_boston)
Follow the Real Estate Addicts Podcast on YouTube: @RealEstateAddicts
00:00
Welcome to the Real Estate X podcast with your host, Dan Rubin, RH Investment Group. Ray hurteau, RH Investment Group. And joining us today, Nick Riccio, Eagle Hill Homes. And Samantha Riccio. Hey guys. Hey. Thanks for joining us in our fairly new studio. Thanks for having us. Mark is MIA. Yeah. He heard we were coming. Stuck on a job site, I suppose. Oh man, if I can use that excuse every time. I'm sure it happened more than often than not, right?
00:30
Oh yeah. We just have kids, you know, so that's the, that's the excuse. Do you have children? No children at the moment. Our mini golden doodle is our very, very, very spoiled child. use a golden doodle for any excuses. Totally. podcasts. I'm going to keep that in my bag. No, I'm going to save Mark's photo.
00:54
in my library and then just start sending that out when I can't make a meeting. a street shut down, but I'm doing the police detail today. Do you have any construction projects going on currently? We do. We How's it been with the snow? Because we just got a bunch of snow recently. Yeah, we did. Like half the country did in this massive storm and you all dug out and... Yeah, so fortunately, or yeah, very luckily.
01:21
We had planned to break ground on a project and what else is new permits delayed. And we've been stressing about, uh know, that we weren't able to start and blessing in disguise because we would have, you know, it would have been a nightmare situation. So knock on wood, we don't have anything that's open to the elements, but even just like small things.
01:43
deliveries have been, you know, just a huge nightmare. All of that stuff has been. Well, the plow guys like to put the snow in like, God bless them, you know, thank you for your service. um In the area in which you need to empty, like at the one gate that we're accessing, they're like, let's put all the snow here. So we showed up to one of our job sites and it was like eight feet. Our guys called us. They're like, what do want me to do here? I was like, do have a shovel? Yeah. I don't really, I don't really know.
02:10
Yeah, logistically, it's a nightmare. Yeah, it is. But, you I guess we signed up As if it wasn't hard enough without the added stuff, you know? Yeah, there's the challenges with parking in general. And they throw the snow in there and total nightmare. Totally. So how long have you guys been doing development stuff now? It's been a while. It's been a... know. Time flies when you're having fun. Yeah, I guess so. It's been... So we got started in...
02:40
I think 2017. we started, it was really just, we wanted to start investing for ourselves. like in college, think, maybe even before, weirdly enough got like fixated on real estate. I think it was like one of those things I Googled like, how do you become wealthy? real estate came Someone said real estate. So I was like, oh crap, guess real estate. And so,
03:10
I got Sam on board, were together. We've been together since I was 17, she was 15. I was like, hey, I think when we graduate, we should try to do this real estate thing. We started and basically we graduated, started, lived in my parents' basement, started saving as much money as we could and hit the ground running that way. The goal all along, is,
03:39
Now looking back, it's kind of funny. We were like, oh, we'll just continue to invest in properties. Like that's gonna be our thing. And we ended up making sort of accidentally like a uh much larger pivot into just the construction world. Yeah, where did you think you were going or where were you kind of headed? I remember like you guys posting videos like back in the day of like you guys like DIYing your Really drywalling. Yeah, I was like, I think I saw it. Like you were tiling.
04:09
I remember those videos and I was like, wow, these guys are like really into it themselves. I was like, I don't think I could even do that stuff what they're doing. It's pretty, was pretty. This is where Dan and I are different. Cause I love being hands on. Yeah. So sometimes you can be two hands on, right? Totally. And that's where we're very different. Sam loves being hands on. I, I'm, I'll own it. I very much would be happy on the sidelines, but we ended up, you know, we.
04:36
dragged ourselves into it. And truthfully, again, I don't think it was like by design. think it was at the time we didn't have a ton of money. we didn't have a ton of money. We were just getting started. We probably weren't smart enough to know how to outsource a lot of things. So it was like, well, this has to get done. I guess we're just doing it. you still working full-time jobs at the time as well?
05:01
We both were, yeah. So at that time we were both working full time. We both worked like a block from each other downtown, which was hysterical. Cause we would like go to work and go to work. Sometimes meet up on our lunch breaks to like run numbers on things or like try to figure stuff out, go back to our respective jobs. And then we do a lot of the stuff just like nights and weekends. And then it all kind of came to a head. We got married in 2019. And at that point we had, we were
05:31
on our honeymoon, came home and then bought another property like a couple of weeks after we got home. then- Just on a whim? Yeah, a lot of- Or was there something that kind of just you'd been looking at and something popped? We were on this train of like buying, you know, some type of multifamily. A lot of them were just two-fam, three-fam properties. Once we realized you needed a GC for a three-fam family, we started being like, okay, two, like two-fams the way to go. So we didn't know anyone and at that point had no experience.
06:01
So we had said, okay, it's about time. We were moving every year or so. So it had been about a year since we'd been somewhere and property came up, it was actually on MLS, and we got it under agreement in like a day. Remember that? I kind of forgot about that. So you were doing the house We were house hacking. Moving every two year type Exactly. And we would be living in the house while we were renovating it, hence me becoming a master tiler, because I was like, I have nothing else to do. You might as well get me a wet saw.
06:30
And that was great. then I really fell in love with the trade. Nick really fell in love with the numbers and figuring it out, how to finance, what to do. And I want to know part of that and quite frankly still don't. That's great though, because that's kind of how Dan and I got into the same division of duties, right? mean, it's not helpful when two people are literally doing the same thing because you're always going to have some kind of little like, I want to do it this way, I want to it this way, or someone's not doing this part.
07:00
It sounds like you're in the same exact boat and things just fell into place. Yeah. Totally. I think that's part of, I it's probably why we can't really run from each other, but you guys much more easily could run from each other, but you've been partners for such a long time. I always say, I think what makes good partnerships is having the natural divide in things. I think if we were trying to, or
07:29
felt like our skill sets were so aligned, it would be like, hey, I wanna do it this way or whatever, and you butt heads a lot more. Now we very much sort Try to stay in our lane. Yeah, stay in our lane, divide and conquer. Which is, know, It took us a while to figure that out though. For sure. Right? Because at the beginning, we tried to do everything together. Yeah. Right? And- And a lot of it was DIY too, in some cases. Yeah. And you're always trying to save some money on labor.
07:54
when you can. But we quickly realized that like, you we started butting heads on certain things and it's like, then we kind of started understanding what our strengths and weaknesses were. And we kind of adapted that way and, you know, tried to separate certain responsibilities. We're still doing that. But you can always, so, you know, like when Dan goes on a trip or if I'm away with the family, you know, we can each step into each other's roles and I'm sure you're the exact same way. It's just,
08:25
you have your preference. Well, they go a rating at the Yeah, that's the problem. I suppose, you know, maybe a work trip. Oh, Lord. No, not a work trip. am I talking about? It's all... Every once in a while it happens. Let's on vacation. Let's get right into that. I mean, thank God. So we have a team now. We did not have a team then and the answer was no vacation. just...
08:48
didn't go anywhere ever. Was it those points of Q &A? Yeah, it was a lot of Amex points just building up, burying a hole in our pocket. Or you did go and just worked the whole time. Right, we took one It wasn't enjoyed. And it wasn't a trip. It was like three days and we were more stressed than we had been in a year of not going anywhere. But right now we do have a team in place and we're thankful for that and they do a great job. Was it challenging hiring your first employee because
09:18
We kind of wrestle with that all the time. Is it an employee? Yeah. have employees or? Yeah, there's seven of us total. So Nick and I and five others. Nice. I would say, so, you know, it started as Nick was working his W2 job as a loan officer. COVID happened. We were doing all these homes ourselves and then I ended up getting laid off.
09:46
And it was not for COVID, it was right before COVID happened. So no one knew COVID was coming and Nick and I were like, perfect, this is exactly what we needed. Like I would have sat in a corporate office for the rest of my life. It was the push, the kick in the It was the kick in the Totally. And we were like, great, we're making a decision right now as a couple and an air quote business that wasn't a business yet. We're gonna dive into this, whatever it is. So I said, I'll get my GC license. I've been basically doing this now for multiple years. I love it.
10:14
I want to do this. So I got my CSL, COVID happens. And we're like, well, we're supposed to be like investing, you know, in multifamily house hack. That went away. And somebody just reached out on Instagram and was like, well, you do my kitchen. And I was like, absolutely not. I would do that. Sounds like a horrible idea. And Nick's like, all right, let's just back it up a second. Like, what do we have to lose? And I was like, mean, everything. They're going to hate it. They're going to hate me. No. So obviously I did it.
10:44
And I basically came to Instagram and posted like, I'm doing this project. Nick helped, I mean, everything behind the scenes, but I was on the job set. was using like the subs we kinda used for our own projects. And by the end of that project, we had three others lined up and we had a business, we got an office, and it was time to hire the first employee. And it was still kind of me doing it for about a year. it was- Pretty fast, yeah. It was quick. And it was accidental. And I always say it's an accidental business.
11:13
feel like a lot of people are like that. A lot of people just fall into things and like, know, just even losing, you know, that getting laid off. If that had, you ever think back, like, if that hadn't happened, this wouldn't have happened. And that whole butterfly effect thing is crazy. if Dan hadn't met me at our job when we got out of college and we hadn't just done one project, like none of this would have happened. It's so weird to think about it. I'd probably do that kind of desk too. Right. Yeah. It's the push.
11:40
And you think you need the push. I mean, you I always wonder if we would have done it if we didn't get it. We probably would have gotten here somewhere or another, but it was like a very natural way. I mean, but then COVID happened and we were like, shit. Do we, I kept, was just, so then I started applying to a bunch of like construction companies, design jobs. I was like, perfect. Like the world shutting down. I can't just not have a paycheck. We were in the middle of a renovation as well. So COVID shut down our whole project shut down. We were like bleeding money. What else is new? I was like, oh.
12:09
perfect, I'm gonna get a job. And everyone was like, what's your experience? I was like, quick, a couple of house hacks. They're like hard now. I got zero callbacks, guys. was like. What were you doing in your full-time job? Social media marketing. Okay. Yeah, which is how social kind of came to be. And which did help grow the business and it all, you know. Yeah, it seems like you told the story about the first one that you just, hey, why not, right? Yeah. Do you have to lose? And then three more came of that. And then what, three more after that? Was it just pretty much like the
12:38
Pyramids coming top of the down, top down. So kind of, so we were on that. was saying, like I was kind of saying earlier, we were on that, that path. And that was like really the core focus was, was the, was just investing and that kitchen sorta changed our path. And so where we have since ended up is doing, you know, more
13:04
of our own development projects and a lot of third party being hired for either additions, uh gut renovations, new builds for homeowners. And so we've gone down that path and it's funny in the sense of it was not, it looks so different than I think we ever imagined.
13:32
And now we even still like almost probably at least every year, like, is this still what we want to be doing? Is this still serving us? Like trying to make sure like we're at least having those conversations. Like, cause you were saying, um Ray of like, you know, you, end up down a path, maybe like accidentally, which was fun, which is fine, but we were, we just, it's like, do we still want to be doing that? oh
14:01
Exactly. But no, it's been great. It's just funny how it's like you have this idea of how things will look and they just don't always end up that, going that way. So you said you're still doing your own development stuff. would you say, is it like 50-50 or 70-30? It's our dinner table conversations right now you're bringing up. Go ahead, Nick.
14:26
Tell them what it is, tell them what we want it to be. Join them for dinner. your dreams? Come on in. Come on in. It's been like 70, 30 clients, 30 for ourselves. We're working towards balancing that out a little bit more. But again, the reality is, and I'm sure we all talk about a lot of this stuff is like,
14:53
the grass always seems greener on the other side. you know, as we push more to the development side, it's things start to come up where it's like, oh, this kind of sucks. know, like these- obviously much higher risk. Totally. Yeah. Right. So it's like, there's always that push and pull of like, yeah, the client work comes with its own set of challenges, but so does the development side, right? So.
15:21
Do you have any rentals, like a rental portfolio at all or? Okay. We do. Right now we have three buildings, seven doors. Nice. We are under agreement to sell our second property. Knock on wood, next knocking on wood. that happens. Thank you. And, you know, want a 1031 and maybe get into something a little bigger. honestly, we haven't.
15:45
done any investments. Like our last investment was 2021 and then kind of the business really took off and we were like, all right, we've done some development since then, but no buy and holds. And we're like, that was the goal. And we tried to go back to like Nick when he was 17, trying to convince me. was like, dude, we're not doing real estate. we don't, I don't even know what that is. Like I'm just trying to go to You grew up in the same town? Different towns, one town over. Got it. Yeah, yeah. So when he told me that, I was like, no.
16:13
So you're back and forth on like client versus self, you know, project, self run project is very similar to Dan and I where we're like, do we want to focus on rentals? We want to do projects. Like, yeah, there was a period of time where we just want to do projects. Then we said, no, we got to go all rentals. And now we're kind of going back to maybe we do the hybrid again. I think it also depends on the market, right? Because part of it is just what is the market telling you? it, maybe it spoke to you like, Hey, get some clients on the side because people want to renovate.
16:42
their bathrooms or kitchens or, you know, how much do you do for a client or do you have like this kind of that sweet spot, that bread and butter like we'll do an addition or we'll only do bathrooms and kitchens. I'm coming into this blind and letting our listeners find out just as I am. So that first project was a kitchen, a kitchen, living room, and I think bathroom. It was like a little area. And then after that, decided it was kind of like made the decision on, and we did it on that first project. We're going to do design no matter what. So it's going to be a full design build process.
17:12
Um, and number two, you know, after like the first year, the first year we did a three family in Charlestown full gut. We did a single family home. did that kitchen. We did three condos in Southie. um Um, the three, sorry to interrupt the three family that you gutted.
17:32
Was that, that was a client. That was, were they trying to condo it? Did they want to get it back to rentals? Rentals, rentals. then we did, I think the next year, three condos and we condoed it, went through like the whole CO process. So I was definitely in, and at this point it was just me. You really ramped up then. You went from kitchen to, yeah. Full of And again, was the market, right? We weren't doing anything extraordinary. There was a need for it. My pricing was probably, you know,
18:02
on the way lower end, so that would make sense. But it was trial by fire. And then once we kind of got to the point where Nick was going to join in on the business and that whole thing happened, we decided what do we want? And now the answer to the question is large scale, either full gut renovation if we're working in the interior of a home, large scale addition or a new build.
18:28
ah So you won't do kitchens We don't do kitchens and baths. We have now started doing kitchens if it's a high, high-end kitchen, because truthfully, the design element of that is fun and it's passion. um And it's truthfully just quicker to get them through pre-construction, but it's very selective. We definitely wouldn't do a bathroom. um And at this point, I think it's fun for our team, creativity, and truthfully just like,
18:57
more control over the process in the project as a whole. I want to feel like the house is almost ours as we're working on it instead of someone's living in it and we're just in and out for a bathroom. Nice, that makes sense. control freak. It's me if you can't you say most of the client work comes from word of mouth now? Is it all organic? All organic.
19:22
Yeah, word of mouth, I would say that probably includes like social media as a huge chunk of it. And then now having done so many of those types of projects, it's uh from a past client, from an architect that was involved in the project and those types of relationships. But core of it is like that social media word of mouth, I think is like the crux of it. Yeah, you're not paying for.
19:49
Mark ads or marketing or bids or any of that stuff. No. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And how many do you, how many projects do you think you'd have typically have going on at like one time? How many do we have or what's the goal? If you had asked Nick, he's like, we can do 10, it's fine. And I'm like, yeah, four is the sweet spot. Four is the sweet spot is the answer. We've done, we had eight at a time this summer. And yeah, it wasn't great, you know?
20:17
quality of life wasn't there. A bit of stress. We did it. It was great there. Everyone's happy, but it was, we stress tested in a good way. And in a lot of things broke in a good way. We realized processes just like maybe we're a little gray and it worked at three to four projects. You get to seven, you're like, shit, this doesn't work anymore. Which to Nick's point, that was his goal. But like when you're, you know, trying to pull your hair out at 10 PM, it doesn't feel worth it. But I think it was good for us. 2025 was that year of like,
20:45
How can we break everything and rebuild it? That makes sense. Yeah. Helps you scale. Totally. And that's active construction. Like the other big part of it is at least on the client side, it's a lot like the pre-construction is its own beast and entity. So like that. All the round work leading up to pulling permit and that whole front side of it. Totally. The business. Yeah. those clients like would joke like,
21:15
Arguably more time is invested with a client on pre-construction. So hopefully as we get to the construction process, that. Whoa. Oh, save. Yeah, Italian hand. Sorry. Can't help himself. As we get into construction, like the hope and the goal is in a perfect world, it actually becomes a little less cumbersome where it's a lot of stress on the team getting ready for construction.
21:44
I would say I'm gonna guess that you want to minimize change orders for obvious reasons on both sides of the equation. you want to do all the work because the crews don't want to, you know, no offense to the clients. Like they don't want to interact with the clients. They just want to know what they got to do, do it. And everybody's moving on being happy. And that middle ground when like people start walking through and talking and be like, Oh, what about this? Like, I'm sure it makes things a nightmare, right? Totally. And you guys know
22:13
from doing your own projects, right? It's like, how many things come up on a day-to-day basis of it's like, well, that wasn't exactly how we pictured it, but like, we're just gonna make a decision and we're rolling with that. With the client, it's, you know, that sort of breakdown in what the plan say and then what the field says, that is one of the bigger challenges. You feel that it slows projects down a lot.
22:43
I was gonna say it's a week. Anytime something happens, it's a week of just like, so that's trying to minimize it as the goal, which I think- And documentation is the biggest. The biggest thing, and yeah. So we've gotten to a decent point, but there's room to grow. I give you guys props. Yeah, seriously. I couldn't do it. I mean, so I was gonna say it's bad enough when Dan and I are, you know, on a project. We'd be good enough. Yeah. I'll show up to a project and I can already tell Dan's like, I already know what he's gonna say. Yeah.
23:08
And then I say it and then he goes, I knew you were going to say that. It's like, don't talk to the subs. They're my subs. Like you're good. Um, but if he's good, not there or I'm checking in on something is right now we're doing a project where I'm, I live closer to it by a good amount. So I'm going to check in more. I'm like, you know what? talked to something called Dan. I want nothing to do with this. I'll write the check and he's learned. He has honestly give me that role. I'm like, to our earlier points and discussions, like it just.
23:38
It's not benefiting the project. It's not benefiting the relationship. I don't want to, I have enough stress at home with my kids and life in general. Like I don't want to deal with projects on the job stress. You know, minimize it. absolutely. that makes sense. Who or what was your first hire? Like the role or, know, how did you get to that point? guess. Social media was a...
24:02
was our, not the role, but we got the job, we got our employees through social media. So I just put out a Instagram story and I was like at my breaking point, again, it was just me at this point in the business, was still doing loans. And we, at that point thought it would stay that way. We were like, there's no way this business can sustain both of us. We need health insurance. We need all these things. We're, you know, I would say, I'm joking here, but like we were like.
24:28
We're adults, like we need to make adult decisions. Two people don't just like go in on a business when it's not making money. Here we are. I mean, better, but then that was like, there's no way we can do this responsibly. I think that was the fear talking, which is pretty accurate. And I think everyone's had that. So with that being said, it was still me and I needed a, I called it uh assistant design and build coordinator, basically help SOS, was really the job description. um And put it out on social media. We interviewed about,
24:58
12 people uh and I landed on a hire that um she was a, just got a real estate license probably like six months prior, know, good time to get into it, but it was like, not super fulfilled, really had a passion for design, but had zero experience. uh Best thing I ever did. unfortunately has, she was from Australia and then she was with us for three years and left to go back to Australia for like a.
25:27
a fun little year abroad and was like, can't ask you to save my job. Naturally, I'm like, do what I would do it. But she was incredible. And it was kind of the point in the business where, again, we had to get an office at that point. So was like, she can't come to our house. That's weird, right? Like, shit. So Nick went on Craigslist and found an office in Melrose that day. He's like, how's this look? I'm like, great, take it. And that's how we ended up in Melrose. Oh, wow. Like the decision making process. We're very decisive people. I've learned that. That's a good thing though.
25:57
Yeah. So we took that, built it out with like four cabinets in like a week. And then I was like, please report to this office. Can't wait to see you on your first day. That's incredible. Hire, get the office. It was great. It's like a week. It's literally like a week. Nick's like, cool. All right. And then he was like. And this was in the middle of COVID? This was 2021, 2? 2. I that was in, so.
26:24
still kind of. Yeah, dare I say kind of. And, you know, training, I love people and relations and being able to train her up was like really fun for me um in the middle of, so that happened in March and then Nick in August felt sick and I was like, you're fine. And we were moving, best case. So we were moving from one, one of our rentals to the other one. We were in the middle of renovating it.
26:53
And it was moving day, the truck came and he's like, we were living at my parents' for like three months, classic. I was like, hi, mom and dad, me again. They're like, get out. And he was like, I don't feel good. I don't think I can, what was it? You were going golfing. He said, I'm not gonna go golfing today. I'm like, dude, what? Well, then you know, yeah. Right. You know something's But the wife's always like, you have a man cold. I think you're fine. Man sick. Exactly. offense for the men.
27:21
But then the next day we were supposed to move. So the moving truck comes and he's not feeling good. And we move into our new house and try to get everything up and running. And then yeah, he's diagnosed with cancer like a few days later. And I was like, I just got this new employee and I went dark on this poor girl for like three weeks and she was an absolute rock star. I was just like, hi, I can't come in obviously. And like, I don't even have anything for you to do, but if you could keep the business from sinking, that would just be awesome. And she crushed it.
27:51
And we, yeah, and we kind of just, you know, navigated just that first initial diagnosis period. And then obviously it was like three years from there, which was a nice uphill battle. um But props to her really. just to jump in on that, you know, being very, um...
28:09
modest, I would say, of what she's not saying is like her superpower is, which you guys can probably feel too, is just very good with people and building people up, making them feel appreciated. And what worked out so well was all the time that she had invested in that girl. And she felt like she really want, you know, it's like she really wanted to help
28:39
So she didn't have all like the tools and skills yet, but there was this like just brute feeling of I don't want to let them down and she talked about rising to the occasion like we had And she was your only employee. She had no one to ask no one to go to she was just showing up to this little Melrose office and I remember we're doing a sprinkler system and an underground infiltration and it was my first time doing it and she's like, what do I do and I'm like I
29:09
I don't have the answer right now and I'm gonna need to get back to you. Yeah, I mean, she's incredible and now a very good friend. There you go. That's great. I mean, to go through that, like building a business while dealing with all that shit, it's like, it's pretty impressive what you guys have accomplished. Thank you. You're good now. it. Like everything's good? Good right now. Yeah, I say it's, you know, it's always good right now, which is...
29:39
You know, it's sort of been a blessing, know, some of what of a blessing in uh perspective, like perspective that we just would never have at this age. um But yeah, we operate on a three month cycles where I go in and get scanned and tested every three months. And we call the three months it's vacation period. So we try to just like, live it up, enjoy it as much as we can. Then the couple of weeks leading up to that is like nightmare fuel.
30:09
And then- It's usually when the business starts to, like something bad happens at work too and you're just like, I can't handle this. I'm like getting Lots of decisions get made real quick. We're going to take on all this additional responsibility. Yeah, it was funny. Like the first few times like going through it, we had no idea. she like, I'd be all of a sudden just like losing my mind over like, call it like the freaking pans we're using at the house. She's like, and I'm like, these pants suck. She's like-
30:37
Okay. So there's something more going on here. And then you start to realize like, okay, I'm, I'm wildly stressed about what's so now we've, you know, we've, again, you learn from it. We've sort of built in systems where it's like, as we approach that time period, it's like, Nick, just take everything sort of gets taken off my plate, which is nice and chill out. know, I mean, it's, it's good that you've learned to do that. Yeah.
31:07
for sure. What a story. Unbelievable. Yeah, it's been a wild ride. That's for sure. It sounds insane. Insane to say the least. I keep saying, I'm like, we need to write it down so we don't forget. Not like we would, but like there's so many nuanced things that we'll go back and think about. I'm like, you know, it doesn't feel real a lot of times. Actually a funny part of
31:31
from like a funny part of cancer. A funny part of this journey is that most every time that Nick goes into a major surgery, we acquire a property. oh So that's fun. So they're like, please do not sign anything. Nick's like, yeah, sure, let's do it. But the last couple of properties, we sold a property. We literally had the attorney come to the hospital. in a wheelchair. had to wheel him down and signing papers. And it's like, that's the shit I need to like remember. That's those like.
32:00
It is. It is. We did that a few times. accepted an offer once when you were in the hospital. We bought our Andover property when you were in the hospital. yeah, anyway, it's good luck, bad luck, but I was like, we're gonna, you we'll take it. If it's just routine stuff, that's all good. Yeah, totally. How is it being like a female in like a male dominated industry?
32:30
That's a great question. It is better than I ever could have imagined. Oh, okay. In a lot of ways. And it's exactly what you would think in a lot of ways. um I would say I wasn't as nervous as people sometimes ask me, and I do talk to a lot of other younger women who want to get into the field and always I'm trying to like encourage them because
32:57
I didn't really have that and I was just like, yeah, sure, I guess I can do it, but didn't have a role model. I feel like, again, my desire to do a good job and my people-pleasing really helped me in a lot of ways of if I didn't know, was finding out and I was very open and honest about things and finding the right subs was difficult in the beginning of people I could trust. once I built that and Nick had a massive hand in that too of once he
33:27
came into the business full time, he was like, all right, I'm gonna like really overhaul. Like, and just make sure we're using kind of the top of the line people so that we can have the top of the line product. But I started meeting people that I could say like, hey, I don't know what I'm doing. And they were great with like, okay, I'm not gonna A.
33:46
see you as a young woman and try to take advantage of you and or give you a price that's crazy high and you're never gonna know and you're gonna pay me for it. And they would take the time to explain things. And I wanted to learn so bad. And I did know baseline from all of our experience, obviously pre doing all of this. I mean, we were basically trying to like, you we did almost everything in our own projects and I loved that. So I had a baseline understanding more so than maybe I looked like I had to people. So sometimes that helped me out a little. um
34:16
But it was, I would say, an overall really good experience for me. I had some small moments of a delivery driver came in the house and looked at me and he was like, what are you doing in here? And it was a three-family condo conversion in Southie. And I was like, what are you doing in here? And then he yells up to my head, some guys, think it was plasters or something upstairs. He's like, there's a pedestrian in here. We got to get her out. And I was like, sir, this is my job site. I'm the GC. Who are you?
34:46
And he literally looked at me and he was like, uh. And then he looks down and goes, you weren't wearing boots. And I literally was like, okay, I'm just going to have to say these are boots. First of all, they're the girls boots. don't know if you've ever seen them. And like, please just deliver and leave. uh And like stuff like that. like, whatever. You know, it was, I learned, found it to be empowering of like, you can do it. So can others. So that was, you know, I'm going to say that was my worst experience.
35:12
I was say, I'm pretty tame. I feel like guys are definitely more aggressive towards each other. I would say you gotta be a real asshole to be aggressive towards a woman, and like scream at a woman, regardless of the capacity. I mean, just in general, it's like a respect that guys will go at it. You've had a couple, you had a subs that you like really screamed at a couple times, and they deserved it, because they thought they were running the job and it wasn't their job to run, but it's just crazy when.
35:41
I think it's the way I would approach it even now. I mean, I do all of the operations of if there's a problem with a client or a sub, I'm the one handling it because I think coming into it maybe a little less hotheaded than my significant other over here, which is just I think men and women in general, oftentimes defuses the situation a little bit more. uh And it's the conversation of this is what you're doing well, this is what I'm really pissed about, but I still like you or I...
36:10
want you to never come back to my job, one or the other, helps diffuse a little instead of just coming in hot. it's been- I think the female presence kind of like softens everybody's kind of like demeanor in some sort of capacity when you're in a meeting or when you have some sort of friction between people. this is again more dinner table conversation. No, you're absolutely right. And I think like,
36:39
The other thing that, you know, we talk, you know, I'm sure again, we all do, we talk to a lot of people like trying to get started and everything. And I think something we did that we put a large emphasis on was like doing what, you know, controlling what we can control and making that a good experience. Like we looked at it like with subs, which was really you, know, Sam being in the driver's seat of it of like.
37:07
All right, I may not be an expert in this, but if I can have a job site that's like wildly clean and organized, have it actually be ready for them when I ask them to come, don't be an a-hole about money. Like when they do the job and it's satisfactory, pay them and pay them on time. And I think- all the info on site was a the information. And I think quickly guys realize like,
37:36
she has her shit together and like this, like, why would I not? Why, you know, why would this be a problem? Like- It's not even something you even recognize that's Yeah. Right. And I think society wise, we've just come a long way. True. You know, again, you, you are the only one who can really speak to it, but for the most part we hire, you know, a lot of, everyone's a pretty good person that, you know, to the extent we know them, they're good people and-
38:04
We haven't really run into a lot of issues. No, fortunately. And all of our employees are young women as well. There you go. Nice. I was going say, it's like a customer service thing in general. I almost feel like it's generational. um You know, someone in my family like brags about, oh, I called this person, really reamed him out. was like, did you get what you needed? Or, you know, did you think you got like the best outcome? Because you probably just ruined their day. Do you want to get yelled at? I mean, so you really do have to kind of
38:36
Treat them with kindness, obviously, be respectful. Voice your issues in a normal way, I guess. I don't like to say normal way, but It's a common manner. I completely agree. Explain the situation, explain what you try to do, try to help. And I mean, even on the business side, there's nothing more frustrating than trying to resolve a problem and then they're just not even there to help you. Cause that's, you're like, hang up, try and get somebody else. Yeah. Yeah. it does go full space.
39:02
but it's never good to come in hot and then like, need this and I'm so, email your manager and just doesn't work that way. So, no, because it is relationships, especially in business. whole business is clients referring you and then you're gonna have the same side you gotta work with every time. So everybody just wants to feel heard. That's the ultimate thing. They wanna feel heard and understood whether or not they're right or you're right or there is a right or wrong.
39:29
They want to feel going into a conversation like you understand. So I'll do it with the sub two, like, listen, I know Jimmy was out this day, the snow, this, that, and I'll start with like validation, which is I think just being a human being. And in my opinion of like, I get it. And then I go, we're all human and shit happens. I get it. However, this looks horrible. It's not up to standard. It's not what we want. I don't want to put my name on it. And if you don't fix it in this timely manner and how I want it's
39:58
not going to be a good relationship moving forward. And that usually softening part in the beginning, I get like, you're right. I just had this conversation. I've had actually like three of these this week with different people, uh our painter or electrician. I'm just like, this is not feeling like, you know, it's up to par and they it's, yeah, you're right. I see it and we're going to fix it. And then it's like, well, if you don't now it's not a great partnership moving forward. there's no question as to why.
40:26
I think people just wanna be treated, let's hear your point, people just wanna be treated like a human. Yeah, we all do. Whether it's a sub, whether it's a tenant, whether it's someone that you're working with, just treating them like a human and I think that goes a long way versus like if you're coming in hot from the get go, everyone just gets put on the defensive immediately and it just goes downhill from there. Know you can be hot with? You can be hot with each other. But like this was happening yesterday, I was like,
40:56
I've got a tenant that's driving me crazy. And dishing it all on Dan. He's like, just chill. You can't control some of these things. Follow the process. I'm like, I hate the process. Yeah, process sucks. So like, you're the one who's gotta take the brunt of my anger. I love it. True. We do that to each other. Well, like we have a back conference room. We'll go in there and just like yell at each other for a second. And we're like, you good? He's like, yeah, you good. And then we go back out to the office and we're like all calm demeanored. But like you do need to like, you know, work it out.
41:24
And then sometimes you gotta treat people like you treat your children. Yeah. It's the compliment sandwich. That's how you're supposed to, you did a really good year, you sucked here, but I still like you. Here's how we can improve. Exactly, exactly. Here's how we can improve. Don't do it again. It is, we're all just- It's a lot of that. is, it's challenging. It's definitely challenging. So what's your kind of, what are your goals for like,
41:54
the future and kind of with the business. And I know you said earlier that you're trying to get closer to that 50-50 split between your own developments and third-party G-Sewer, but you have like long-term goals for the business.
42:10
Yes and no, honestly. um I'd probably answer it very differently a couple of years ago, truthfully. And reason for that is we were always so ah methodical on how everything had to go and the perfect plan and follow it step by step. And over time, I think we've learned of like,
42:39
letting things come to us a little bit, like, you know, doing all of the right actions and then sort of seeing where it takes us. But I think to not dodge the question, I think the client side, we just really want to continue to improve it. We've really enjoyed, um, you know, I guess increasing the standards of the projects we do, which has been fun. It's been
43:07
You know, it's challenging for us and you know, we were kind of saying earlier, like we really focus, we're focusing less on the type of project in more so does the person value like quality and all of those things in that. if it checks that box and we're really trying to get to a point where like everyone we work with values those things.
43:35
So from the client side, think it's really just like saying no to more things that are not what we want to do anymore. At one point it served us, but it just doesn't anymore. So I think on that side, that's the focus. Continuing to do some more development. And again, part of what we're do, what we still are doing on that side of things is like, does it actually make
44:03
a lot of sense for us financially. And part of that is like always checking it because I think it's easy for us to be like, this is a great opportunity and you know, for all of these reasons. But if we poured that time and energy into the other side of the business, like is the opportunity cost greater on the other side? Yep. And it's also sort of a balance of risk, right?
44:29
Totally. With the client side, there's only so much risk, but with a project, it's essentially unlimited until everything's done. Yeah. And then you never know. Right. Love living on unlimited risk. Real estate is not this like rosy picture with like crazy, greedy people. Like it's made out to be. There obviously is some of that, but you know, on the smaller, you know, smaller business side of things, we're just all trying to do something and.
44:57
provide something. Yeah, tell that to the Google search Nick saw at 17. You know, that's how we got into that real estate build wealth. Here we are. But to finish my answer, to finish my response, I was going to say getting back to like, really focusing on building our rental portfolio. That is actually something we're talking about constantly of getting back. You know, I think we just run out of time in the day, right? So, so I think like,
45:27
re-prioritizing that is something we're really actively focusing on. So long-term, that's what we believe will be best for our family and our life. sometimes the development in the client business feels like it's quicker, you return. You see that return quicker. So it draws your interest and energy. But
45:51
trying to stick to what we believe will be best for us. Yeah. I mean, we've wrestled with that for years, right? It's constantly trying to like push and pull on what works and what doesn't and what our long-term goal, like long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long,
46:21
That's the long-term thing. yeah, it's pretty much where Dan and I have kept circling to is like, they're both necessary. just timing is always everything. Like what's the right time? And that's the thing you really can't control. You can't control the market. Can't control when you're gonna make a purchase, where you'll be when you make that purchase or sale. And to your point, it's like, you could have as many plans as you can put on a piece of paper and not one of them.
46:50
will pan out potentially. And so you kind of just got to pivot and kind of just react to the environment and the market and what's going on in your own life. And that kind of affects the business as well. So it's like any project budget, every line item, nothing comes in exactly where you budget. that's real estate. Nothing's going to be exactly what you expect. As soon as you recognize that, say this to Nick all the time and I preach this and I was.
47:18
five years ago, like the type A typist person. I don't even know if I can like type A more in a nutshell. So wound up with like, I must plan an itinerary for like, I don't even know, the weekend. And now life and reality and then construction. I'm like, what is that doing? Actually, it's just making me feel like I'm behind or that we need to be following a plan. And once I let it go, I think the superpower is in being flexible and
47:47
understanding that like, if it's a dumpster fire, you're in it. You're doing it. You gotta find a way out. Well, yeah. Yeah. But I said, I'm like, it's not not gonna go wrong. It's just, it's how you handle it. Thinking everything's gonna be perfect is not construction. Yeah. Let's touch on a few, before we wrap up, let's touch on a few design stuff things. guess my first question, from a client standpoint, does it like really stress you out?
48:16
when a client picks a really ugly finish. It does. I think that we do, so right now we have a lead designer on staff and she does, she heads up a lot of the design obviously with a good amount of my oversight, but she does an excellent job. And what we try to do nicely is,
48:39
I hate to use the word gang up on, but we will all give opinions. And our assistant project manager will chime in as well, like, for the record, I really like option A. And we've done that a couple of times and we've won over. And then we've had people say, wow, I'm so glad I went with that. And there are other times, mean, know, cabinetry coloring or looking, I'm like, you know, I'm gonna give you what I think is gonna be the best, but at end of the day, this is your home. And I've gotten over the point of like,
49:08
my style, what I personally think is high design or good design. It's so subjective and not, it's like getting over your ego of like, if that's what you want, I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it amazing. And you're going to have nothing negative to say about the quality of the work and how it comes out. And I'm going to help, even if it's something I don't love, build the house around that so it doesn't look out of place. And that's, you know, that's your, that's your life. That's your home that you deserve to be walking in every day and love. uh
49:38
doesn't mean that it doesn't like, you know, inside I get a little sad. Yeah, everybody's got their own style. But I try to let it, I've learned to let it go. And I think as I've done that, you know, I'll stand tall on some things with I'm like, no, that's not gonna look good. And people luckily as of now have. That's where the spec builds come in. Cause then you can do what, exactly. And those help. Showing people. That's some stress relief. Oh my God, it's therapy. And using it as like a showcase for other people like, oh wow. m
50:07
I didn't think that would look good, but I'm able to do the things that I'm like, or like use a fixture or something that everyone, like I'd bring it to like 10 clients like, no, no, no, no. And then I'm like, here we go, Nick, pony up, we're putting it in our build. And then everyone starts using it after that. That's funny. I guess what the clients also, you could try some other ideas and see how it works out if they're amicable with it too. And then you could say like, hey, this works really well.
50:34
And really why I think you're trying to say Sam is that you want to avoid, you'll find you'll push client push back on clients if there's like a big clash of styles or design versus it's just not like a teen kind of thing. Spot on. I think you're also doing the client work is also a benefit for the specs stuff that you're doing because you can you're doing you're interacting with people and doing projects for them all the time and you can.
51:00
kind of identify what the trends kind of are and what people are gravitating towards. So when you do do a spec build, you can say, all right, well, the last eight out of 10 clients wanted this in their house. And then it's like, all right, we're gonna put this in the spec build. 100%. And I think what's nice too is with the clients, they all have their different tastes, but being able to, to your point, use so many different materials.
51:29
and see it installed, you know, sometimes it's a product, call it a tile that we haven't used before and we're so excited and I see it installed and I'm like, it's nice. Now that I see it, I wouldn't want it. That would be all over my build and I'm not, Nick's not letting me rip it out at that point. So I'm able to then also for us when we design. Exactly. Which is nice. Or avoid things that are going to go out of style or are on their way out of style. We joke about.
51:55
Millennial gray. mean like the color palettes is its own discussion. But you know, I feel like we're also pushing people away from things that Wouldn't necessarily be Relevant in the future. What are you seeing some of the like the top things that people really like it's like everyone wants
52:16
White oak, man. Everybody wants white oak everywhere. The natural woods seem to be very They are. It's like that Scandinavian design, which I do love. White oak is gorgeous. I do think that in 20 years, there's gonna be 500 slat walls in the dumpster. It's gonna be like the maple cabbage of the 90s. it is. Which, you know, again, easy to remove.
52:38
all that, but yeah, we're doing a lot of that. I do like, think a lot of times it fits in the homes and they're beautiful, but I'm seeing it more and more and the more we do and the more we show, the more they want it for different builds. But I think that's probably our new millennial gray maple cabinets. Yeah, well, I was gonna say, like, what is the color trend? Are people doing more with color or are they still just keeping it? Warm and earthy. so instead of gray, it's...
53:04
beige and instead of the cool tones were going more like earthy. I mean, now I like the Benjamin Moore colors of the uh year are very much like jewel tones, like magentas and deep greens. And people aren't afraid. I mean, for a while, I mean, we as millennials grew up in our parents' house, which was like, we all know what they looked like. They all look the same. There's just like clutter everywhere, usually probably some wood paneling and then like, like yellow walls.
53:32
So then for a while we were like, clean, white, everything must be because I am so traumatized from my mother's like kitchen. And then from there it got just all, everything, everything was stark. And then I think everyone kind of felt like that was cold and it wasn't inviting. And we're now getting back into like warm tones, wood tones, the white oak definitely helps and you know, depending on how it's used. um So I like that.
53:59
And I think mixing metals, I'm a huge proponent of, it's not black hardware everywhere anymore. um And different textures with lighting, like it was for a while all industrial looking, everything was globe lights. Now we're bringing back like some fabric lighting, some linen and all that stuff just helps as a whole for a house to feel like a home in my What about LED lighting? So I'm okay with LED lighting if it is a certain temperature. Okay. We cannot look like we're in a...
54:28
like operating room rather or office. Yeah. So we're using a lot of like soft white lighting. Even like our under cabinet lighting we can do. We've been, you know, I would say experimenting with some higher end like flush mount recess lighting that will mimic the like your circadian rhythm and like change as the does. Cool stuff. Lights are the color temperatures can adjust during the Oh yeah.
54:54
What's your favorite Kelvin? you know, well, 2700 is like my bare minimum. I will go to 1900. Like give me yellow lighting again, different scenarios, right? Not in like a kitchen, but there's, there's a lot of, um, some real data saying that the, bright lights like this. Yeah. I the less lights like throwing with a lot less. Like, think we at least, yeah, we went through a phase of just like,
55:22
poppin' 14 recess. Yeah, recess like everywhere. it's like, yeah, it's like, there's no dark spots. talked about that on a couple episodes. did. Mark was like, oh, we don't need a runway of recessed lights in place. It's like not, not cute. It just gets uncomfortable. Like from a living, like, I don't know, we, at least the way we live, it's like the less light possible, like just some natural light and minimal.
55:51
Blue lights, I think is what you mean. Like, blue spectrum is kind of not good for humans, especially at nighttime. Shut down your body, which is why they say don't do screens like an hour before. Exactly, but then you're like, you all your, see that and people are like, all their lights are on in their house and I'll walk by, walk in the dog and I look in the window, I'm like, how are you even winding down? Your house is like an office space. So I just want to knock on the door and be like, do you have LEDs? Do you know what color temperature is?
56:18
I'm start putting flyers on people's doors. It'll really help overall health. It me crazy when my kids just come in and just turn every light off. Oh my God, they turn the lights off. Literally. Are you already that dad of running behind, checking all the lights? We're living in big We bills to pay here. You how much that costs? That's awesome. That's incredible. yeah. So scary to turn it right into our parents. Don't we? Just before our eyes. Dad. That sense. because people are putting
56:48
No, I was more tying about like you see a lot of developers or builders now doing like single family spec homes and like higher in towns, like putting LEDs, like strip lights everywhere, like on the walls under the the staircases. like that uh will be a slat wall situation to that in 20 years. gonna be like, this house was built in 2023. Yeah, I really wish there was. Oh, this is a joke, but I am. I wish there was a requirement that
57:18
builders needed a designer on a lot of these projects because I think there's just so many people that, myself included, I should not be designing a home and I would destroy it if I was picking every finish and lighting fixture and where it goes and all of that. There's so much out there of it's just like, how did all of this get picked out and how did we end up here?
57:47
You can tell when you walk into a house, this was thought out thoughtfully, or this person just went to Home Depot and bought the cheapest shit for everything. And just slapped it up, didn't care. Big difference. You know, or went on Instagram and just said, okay, I'm just gonna steal everything from that and pigeonhole it into this house where it doesn't fit at all. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, that's funny. Well, this has been awesome, guys. Thank you so much for joining. so much. Yeah, if anyone wants to follow you or get a hold of you,
58:17
How can they find you? Eagle Hill Homes on Instagram. That's probably the best way. That's probably the best way. then eaglehillhomes.com is our website. We have like a work with us forum there and a bunch of info, but yeah, send us a note. congrats on all your success guys. Thanks for having us. This is awesome. thanks for having us guys.
58:43
See ya.