Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Interface is a podcast where we connect technology and culture through conversation. Interface is brought to you by EMPOWER at PROS. EMPOWER is dedicated to attracting, developing and retaining Black talent at PROS. PROS helps people and companies outperform by enabling smarter selling in the digital economy.
Jenni: [00:00:00] Welcome to Interface, a podcast where we connect technology and culture through Conversation Interface is brought to you by Empower. At Pros, [00:01:00] empower is dedicated to attracting, developing, and retaining black talent. At Pros, pros helps people and companies outperform by enabling smarter selling and the digital economy.
I'm your host, Jennifer Plummer, and today, uh, my co-hosts are Matthew and Sierra. Hi guys.
Siara: Hello?
Jenni: Hello, and today. Today our guest is Dr. Cheryl Swier, senior teaching faculty at the University of Massachusetts Amherst. She is an experienced computer science department chair with a demonstrated history of working in the higher education industry.
Dr. Swier is a senior teaching faculty at the University of Massachusetts Amherst, and was the former department chair of Mathematics and Computer Science at Clain University, where she was named Henry N. And Alice Carson Tisdale Endow Professor Dr. Swier works with many programs focused on increasing the computing pipeline by getting students interested in STEM disciplines and future technology careers [00:02:00] through her nonprofit, the CIS Foundation Incorporated that implements the Cool Girls Code Project and is dedicated to increasing the number of underrepresented minorities in computing through engagement, inspiration, and empowerment.
Welcome to the podcast.
Cheryl Swainer: Thank you, Jenny. I'm so excited to part of your podcast today.
Jenni: We're gonna have fun. We like, I hope, I hope our guests think we have a, it's pretty fun to, um, really learn about everyone's background. So, speaking of which, um, can you give us your origin story? How did you get into technology?
Cheryl Swainer: Well, that's a very interesting question. Um, I first start off by just telling you a little little bit about who I am and where I'm from and how I got into the tech field. And so I'm no spring chicken as you can see. Uh, others may not be able to see it, [00:03:00] but, um, I'm from the small, small town in South Georgia called Quitman, Georgia, and when I graduated high school there was only one traffic lights, and today there are three traffic lights on the same street.
Just to, you know, kind of tell you how small the town is. We had one high school, one junior high school, and one elementary school basically. And so when I graduated high school, long time ago, my favorite subject was mathematics. And so upon graduation, I went to Albany State College and Albany State College is now Albany State University in Albany, Georgia.
And so when I first got to Albany, Georgia and [00:04:00] went to Albany State, I met my advisor, my academic advisor who happened to be a math professor. He told me at the time that computer science and electrical engineering was the thing of the future. He suggested that I do the dual degree program with Georgia Tech.
And I asked him, well, how long is that program? And he said, well, you would have to go to school and additional a year. And I thought that was just too long. And I said, eh, I'm just gonna do four years and get out. You know, so I still with computer science. And so I ended up changing my major to computer science and that's where my start in the tech field began, it began at Albany State College back in 1982, [00:05:00] in the fall of 1982. And from there I started, um, doing co-ops in computer science with the Marine Corps Logistics base it al been to Georgia for the next. Two years upon my graduation, um, they offered me a full-time position as a computer specialist.
And, um, I, I turned down the offer and I ended up taking a fellowship at the Ohio State University, uh, to pursue a masters in computer science because I thought getting a master's in computer science would have more of a positive impact on my, um, career endeavors as opposed to just stand local and being a computer specialist, uh, slash computer programmer, um, [00:06:00] in Albany, Georgia.
And so off I went to Ohio State. Um, I was like the only one my class. Here I am, this young, um, girl from South Georgia who had never been away from her family, scared alone, and I had no one, you know, to talk to. I didn't know anybody there. And so, um, I eventually got recruited where I was at the Ohio State University. They offered me a position and I ended up moving to upstate New York and so my first job, my first degree in computer science came from state. My first job in corporate America was and then I reinvented myself at [00:07:00] least two more times. Um, at some point, um, I did become a high school math teacher, um, taught, um, math for middle school for a few years.
And the reason I transitioned from. Um, corporate to K12 is because I felt like I had reached this glass ceiling. It was always my aspiration to become a CEO of an organization . I quickly realized that those types of organizations really were for black people back in those in the early eighties or in the mid eighties.
You know, they, some of them wanted us there, right? But, you know, for whatever reasons. But in terms of, you know, climbing that career ladder, it was really, in my opinion, limited for African Americans. [00:08:00] And so, um, I ended up transitioning, going back to Georgia. Um, I worked for a major, um, credit card corporation in Georgia, in Columbus, Georgia, to be exact.
And I found the same thing there, you know, different place, but the same things were going on. I just could not climb that career ladder for whatever reason. I was on a track for a technical lead, made it to that position, but no one would ever put me on that management track. I transitioned reinventing myself and became a K-12 teacher to a high school math, middle school math.
And after seven years of doing that, I happened to meet one of my childhood friends who happened to be a provost at Fort Valley State University. He told me to email [00:09:00] him my resume.
And I emailed him my resume. The next week I had an interview for a department chair position in math and computer science at Fort Valley State University. And at the time I didn't even have my PhD in computer science. And here all this, uh, imposter syndrome set in. Like, how are you gonna be the department chair or professors of computer science? And you don't even have a PhD in computer science. How are you gonna be, you know, over or supervised PhDs in computer science and you just have a master and a bachelor's, you know, in computer science. At the time I did have a doctorate. I have two doctors. My doctorate was in education, but I didn't have the confidence to preside over, uh, faculty who had PhDs in computer science.
So I thought, [00:10:00] so when I went to my interview, I was extremely nervous cause that was my first higher ed academic interview. But I did my best. And so long story short, they did offer me a position, but not that of department chair. Cause really I didn't show forth the confidence and enthusiasm, you know, to get that position.
But they did offer me a position as an associate. Professor of Computer science. And guess what? I took it because my thoughts were like, I was already a high school math teacher on the south side of Columbus, Georgia teaching at risk kid. And I had tired of that.
And also I felt like I just didn't fit in with those teachers.
Jenni: Mm-hmm.
Cheryl Swainer: I was the only one in the entire, um, school who had a doctorate, even over the principal. You know, there was a lot intimidation and jealousy going on. [00:11:00] I mean, I could never do anything in that space. So, you know, I just was not happy. They seemed like most of them didn't wanna learn. It was, and I was one of these hard, no, no nonsense teachers, you know, like they paid me to teach. They don't pay me the discipline, you know, I was that teacher who locked the door when you came in and you didn't have a pass to get in. You didn't get in my classroom.
Classroom. And, and if you came in my class, I was, I'm, you know, where, where
Jenni: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Cheryl Swainer: time, time to move. And, and, and then they offered me the job and I took it. That's how I went from being in corporate America.
Mattie: I got a question. You mentioned, [00:12:00] um, glass ceiling. I'd love to get kind of what your perception of a glass ceiling is. Can you kind of describe like what that feels like, what it looks like? Um,
Cheryl Swainer: Absolutely. You know, as a person, you know, um, working a job, you have certain, you know, career goals, right? And objectives, and my career goal was to become a C E o, a chief Executive Officer of a company . Because I had that, I have that mentality, you know, of if I can see it, I can, you know, and believe it, then I will achieve it.
And if I put my mind to it, I'm going to do it. So I try by working hard and doing so, I thought the right things to achieve my career goals. I did what they asked me to for the most part. But [00:13:00] I must admit I am an accident. Okay? And I stand for justice. Just like the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King said, said, injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere.
And I saw a lot of discrimination. I'm just gonna be honest. I saw a lot of discrimination, uh uh, or disparities. In terms of career advancement, I saw my white counterpart get, you know, um, promoted over me and I was curious as to why that was happening. Cause I was just this little country girl, 20 years old from Georgia, you know, always been outspoken, always kinda said what was on my mind.
Really didn't have that many filters. But I was a nice person. But I would just ask, you know, certain questions. And we had this meeting, like this huge like site [00:14:00] meeting and they say, if you have any questions, put it in a little box.
And I put my question in the box and my question was, why do, why people get promoted? Know over black people. That was my question. Now outta all the people that put the question on the card in the little box, their names. Cause it was supposed to be anonymous.
Yours truly. And my question was read in front of thousands of people. Next thing I know, um, my boss was like, Cheryl, did you write that question? And me being Cheryl, I was like, yes. I wrote that question. And he was like, wow, wish you would've done that. They gave me an [00:15:00] assignment that they knew I could not complete
Jenni: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Cheryl Swainer: a very difficult assignment.
Jenni: That's tough.
Cheryl Swainer: And they told me, my division chair told me, I think it's time for you to go back to Georgia.
Jenni: Wow.
Cheryl Swainer: And they say, what do you need to go back to Georgia? And at the time I was finishing up my masters at um, cause cause like I told you before I left, um, Ohio State, cause I was recruited by, IM finished up my masters, I asked them to pay up, finish paying for my master and give me at least a year's salary. And they, they gave me everything I asked for
Jenni: Inter Wow. Versus answering
Siara: First is Yeah, answering the question.
Jenni: answer the question?
Cheryl Swainer: Absolutely not. They kicked me out the building
Jenni: Oh my
Cheryl Swainer: [00:16:00] at a nice, you know, it was a process, but it wasn't that blatant. But it was blatant enough, you know what I'm saying? But not literally, you know, they didn't security or
Jenni: Mm-hmm.
Cheryl Swainer: But I was young. I was 28 years old at the time. Um, well, I had been there over five years, and so, Matthew, to answer your question, those are the things. Those are the glass ceilings. You know, when you use your voice, see your voice is your power. And so when you use your voice, sometimes it can get you in trouble, but I am. But when I see injustice, I speak out to my own fault. And I know a lot of people won't do that,
Jenni: that's what I was gonna say. You're, you're clearly very bold and outspoken where other people are thinking, you know, thinking something and, um,
Cheryl Swainer: [00:17:00] I'm actually thinking something too. It's not that I'm, I'm thinking something too, but I'm a risk taker. That's the difference.
Jenni: I think a lot of people would, um, right, be afraid to ask the question for the same retaliation that you received. Right. Um, right. Because, you know, people, you know, need to have income or whatever. And so that's, um, you know, a place with the ceiling or, or, you know, obstacle skating to one is better than no place at all.
So these are the kind of things or open conversations that we hope has improved this day. And kind of, um, perhaps through, I don't know if you have any experience through employee resource groups, um, at corporations to see if, do you think it's the same today as it was when that happened to you?
Cheryl Swainer: racism is here. Racism is alive. Racism is not going anywhere. And so if somebody thinks racism [00:18:00] is not here, then they're sadly mistaken. If someone thinks racism is not going anywhere, they're sadly mistaken. People will always have their opinions about stuff. People will always be biased. We, I mean, everybody have their own biases, you know?
It's what it's, you know, so don't think for a moment that I don't think about, you know, I had a daughter at the time,
so it's not like, you know, I wasn't gonna worry about, you know, how pay this and how I was gonna take care of this. That's why I asked them for a year's compensation.
Jenni: So, yeah.
But
Cheryl Swainer: luckily enough, I got a job before I left.
Jenni: so for the students that you're teaching now, like what is your advice to them? Um, As they're trying to navigate their careers.[00:19:00]
Cheryl Swainer: Wow. That's a very good question. Well, I tell my students to follow, you know, their dreams, right? Um, pick and choose your battles. Definitely pick and choose your battles. And so, and pick and choose your battles. Make sure if you're gonna enter into a battle, a perceived battle or something that may become a battle. Make sure you don't put all your eggs in one um, basket and make sure you have a backup plan. You have some type of contingency
Jenni: Mm-hmm.
Cheryl Swainer: plan. Don't go into things blindly. You know, don't go into things blind at all. Make sure you, you know, um, you have a plan. You gotta have a plan.[00:20:00] You have to strategize. You have to strategize. Strategize, and be willing to accept the consequences.
Jenni: Got it.
Cheryl Swainer: I don't regret any decisions, you know, that I made. That are for the right reasons. Yeah. I might have a few, you know, um, scars, you know, from some of those battles. But the impact is more lasting than anything. It might not have helped me, but it probably helped somebody that was coming behind me
Jenni: Yeah.
Cheryl Swainer: it made the organization think twice about how they treat their employees.
Jenni: Yeah.
Cheryl Swainer: In fact, I'm going through something very similar now at UMass.
UMass is not different. You can Google it. [00:21:00] When I first came to UMass, black students were receiving letters anonymously, you know, telling them they didn't belong. They were very racist letters.
Jenni: wow. Yeah.
Cheryl Swainer: It's out there. Even just this past semester, I dealt with racism for my students and assignments that I gave them. Poor. And k
Jenni: Wow.
Cheryl Swainer: I, I was teaching class on human computer interaction and then teaching this class, you know, um, one thing we talk about is, we talk about personas, right? Uh, and building software. You know, you need to know and understand who, who you're building the software for, you're building the software for, right? Look at scenario. Right. But one of the first things [00:22:00] you wanna do after you do your planning and your analysis, or this could be, this is a part of the planning and analysis, is looking at personas.
So in this one class activity, I had the students in their groups, I had like in the class to create personas for their project and then after, and they post them in the Google form, right? And so at the end of the class, they have to present, you know, this information.
Jenni: Mm-hmm.
Cheryl Swainer: And so, um, this one group, I noticed, um, the persona one, the persona was that of a white man with all these positive attributes. The students also had to do an anti persona. So they did a persona and then they did an anti persona. You could probably guess already what the anti persona was.
Jenni: Mm-hmm.[00:23:00]
Cheryl Swainer: The anti persona was that of a black man and they had a picture of a black man
Jenni: Mm-hmm.
Cheryl Swainer: and they wrote all the negative attributes that could fit on that page, you know, on that form for a black man, high school dropout, lazy, you know, like they eat snacks, you know, don't work it, it, you name it. They put it on there. And then the following week we did another activity. Cause every week I lecture up, know, group activity and the. Somebody else came up. I, I guess they thought it was cute. Um, they did these memes, right? And I was trying to figure out what is this? And they put pictures of, you [00:24:00] know how Carter B and I said had this McDonald's, uh, combo?
Jenni: Yeah. Yeah, I see that.
Cheryl Swainer: So they created a meme with that, right? And then they had like the little white people with the swimsuits on, you know, like looking at them like kinda crazy. I mean, you have to see it too. And so I had them to present out. Every group has a presenter and the person didn't really wanna to present out, but they had to. And so I just, I know I had, I don't know how I looked, but, but I'm sure I had some kind of look on my face like that mama look, that black mama
Jenni: Mm-hmm.
Cheryl Swainer: And so like, I know you did do this, you know, kinda look. And so, uh, um, the young, uh, the student actually presented out and, um, [00:25:00] and, um, I still didn't really get it right, but I left cause I, as soon as class was over, I left.
I didn't stick around, I left. I learned the next day that another student confronted that student and told that particular student that what they had done was racist and how, you know, it's like that other student police, you know, his fellow classmates. So, um, and the, uh, the student that was kinda, you know, that did the presentation, confronted me in the following class period and said she was victimized.
Um, and, and that, and I, I wasn't feeling that way because that student was responding to what was presented. And sometimes when you put stuff out there in the atmosphere, you never know what you're [00:26:00] going to get. You know, and so that's how that student felt. And, and after that I was like, you know, this has to stop
Jenni: Mm-hmm.
Cheryl Swainer: this is not gonna go on from week to week to week.
Jenni: Mm-hmm.
Cheryl Swainer: So the next class period, I had one of my colleagues sitting in there on the class and I put up their assignments and I put bold red letters. Not acceptable.
Jenni: Mm-hmm.
Cheryl Swainer: And if you do it again, you gonna be in trouble.
Jenni: Okay. So that gives us a glimpse to your daily life. Um, as an educator, maybe you can, um, kind of tell us in general, what are you doing, um, you know, in the, in the roles you have and with the, the outreach that you're doing as well.
Cheryl Swainer: Yeah. So, um, computer scientist and as a professor, um, I teach human computer interaction courses and I love computer science. I love teaching, um, the students, working with the students. And I [00:27:00] also, um, co-founder an organization at called Black Women United so that we can address, you know, issues and challenges that women face. We had this year long, um, workshop called Your Voice Your Power. We brought in this expert in voice positioning. Um, in terms of the students, I advise a group, um, of students, um, called stars, um, and these students focus on, um, working with other students in computing, doing outreach, teaching high school and middle school kids how to code.
For the past almost two decades, I've worked with outreach. I love outreach. I love. Um, exposing, um, young black girls and young boys and computing, teaching them how to code, teaching them how to [00:28:00] program robots. I mean, it's something that I'm passionate about, um, because I am, you know, a computer scientist and because I love coding and because I love working with k12.
Um, I was recognized in 2013 by President Obama as a champion of change for technology inclusion. I was invited to the White House. Um, it was just an awesome event. I was recognized by Ebony Magazine, um, in their December 20, issued as a power one. One of the 100, uh, most influential, uh, African Americans in the technology area during that particular time, um, um, I formed a group called Cool Girls Code, where primarily [00:29:00] focus on black girls, girls in period, you know, period teaching them about coding.
Um, bottom line, I've worked with organizations such as Girls Incs, the Links, um, boys and Girls Clubs Club, you know, going to different high schools, going to different middle schools, just teaching these young, you know, underserved, underrepresented, um, kids in K-12 about competing because once they get to college, it's not too late, but the learning curve is huge and they would be struggling.
You know, especially if they went to a school like UMass,
Jenni: Mm-hmm.
Cheryl Swainer: be like one in the number. And so, um, it's important to, um, you know, involve our young kids early on. I would say [00:30:00] elementary
Jenni: That makes sense.
Cheryl Swainer: for parents who love and for, yeah, for parents who love tech. I wouldn't even give them tools before, you know, elementary, I have a grandson.
Jenni: Mm-hmm.
Cheryl Swainer: I gave him, um, a tablet and he knows how to scroll, you know, and do things like that, you know. Um, he uses his mom's cell phone. He's like, what? Um, 13 months. But he was using a tablet before he was a year old. So, um, just introducing them to technology, um, early, you know, because tech is here to stay. It's not going anywhere.
Just like ai, AI is a subset of computer science. Um, that's facial recognition software. Everywhere you go, [00:31:00] you're driving your car, there's a camera at the stoplight, they're recording your face, you know, and they're storing that data somewhere and they're training that data to recognize, you know, you and you and you and me. You know? Um, we use social media, guess what? And training the data that we put in social media, the picture, the things that we type. All that information is data. Right. And they train these data sets and they create these models, you know, from this data, um, that they train to recognize certain, you know, patterns.
And based on that data, they make certain decisions, you know? And so, um, has been happening for decades. [00:32:00] AI may be new to you and I, but it's not new. It's been around for a while. It's just that the public, we are always the last ones who become knowledgeable about the technology, just like gps, global positioning system.
It's been around forever,
Jenni: So
Cheryl Swainer: when the government, uh, the systems of this world decided to market, you know, that particular product, right? Then, you know, we, the public had access to it and we could purchase it.
Mattie: Question. Question for you, Cheryl. I got, uh, you mentioned a s subset. AI is a subset of computer science. Um, I kind of want to go back to, as a professor of computer science, um, what are the different kind of subsets that is taught in computer science? Like what could someone that's interested in computer science kind of [00:33:00] expect?
Because can you demystify exactly what that major looks like?
Cheryl Swainer: Yeah, so computer science is a very broad area, right? And so, um, you can major in information systems, you can major in computer engineering. Um, you can major in AI almost today. You can create your own, you know, major. Um, you can major in, um, electrical engineer and some departments have it in computer science and other computers depending on the institution.
They have it up on the engineer, just like computer engineer can follow up on computer science. You can major in cybersecurity.
Jenni: can you describe the, as you're naming those, can you de describe the differences in what those are? What, what is information systems? What is computer engineering? Yeah.
Cheryl Swainer: yeah. So well let's talk about what is computer science? Right? So computer science, um, is a [00:34:00] study of computers, but it involves, Writing software, right? That's how we get our computer. Um, engineers, our computer programmers. And so for like information systems, you know, if you went to college, you know, you had to get your email set up, you had a IT department called information technology.
It kinda set that stuff up for you as well. And so sometimes those people who are majoring in information systems, they're focusing more on the business side of computer science or the application side side of, it's not as technical. Whereas the computer engineering, they're focusing on, um, more of the hardware side, electric engineering's. Hardware. Okay. But computer science is both, well, computer science is software where it, [00:35:00] whereas, um, engineering is just hardware and of course cybersecurity deals with, you know, trying to find, you know, um, the threats and the viruses that are in different software, um, and even hardware. So there are differences, different nuances.
They're not just little nuances, but yeah. But you can major in computer science with a math emphasis where it's more math structure. You can major in computer science with a business emphasis where you take more business courses. It all depends on the university and what curriculum they actually offer.
Jenni: So you, you, um, You also mentioned that you had been doing a workshop. Was, was that part of your faculty engagement or was that kind of another side thing outside of, uh, cuz I, I know you've [00:36:00] also spoken at other conferences, so, um, just kind of curious how you got
started doing that.
Cheryl Swainer: yeah, yeah. So Swer Consulting, so I had my own swer consultant, llc. And so for years, because I was doing all this outreach and I was doing it for free, and finally one day I woke up and I said, it's time for me to get paid, you know, for all this free work that I've been doing. And so I had a friend at another university who had a program, Asked me could I do a seminar on ai?
And I said, absolutely. And you know, I charge my fees and, and I do a lot of speaking engagement and so, and I charge my fees. So that's what Swan, um, consultant is LLC [00:37:00] is all about. And so the seminar that I did these past few days on what is AI was an awesome workshop. It really was. Because one of the big things that is out there now that we're talking about now only Yes.
Um, in higher ed is chat, uh, um, GT
Mattie: I love chat g pt, it's the best.
Cheryl Swainer: Yeah. And the students use it and a lot of my colleagues are upset about it.
Mattie: Okay. How do they, how do they, how do your colleagues implement chat G P T in their kind of sessions? Because I hear this all the time and I'm, and I think like that, Is on the professors, the teachers to adapt to the, to, to modern technology cuz it's, you know, growing up in high school it was like, you can't use a calculator on this test cuz you're not gonna have a calculator with you wherever, or you need to learn this fact [00:38:00] because you're not gonna have a book with you.
Wherever. Well, I can look up anything I want at any time and do any type of math, and now I can actually have a conversation with my search. So I think like if these professors or these these educators are giving homework or tests that can be answered by a Chachi pt, then that's on them to adapt. And I think like if you're giving something that can be easily answered by a a, a chat box, then.
That's a problem. You, you should probably give harder work and maybe not harder work, but just more complex work that actually challenges people to think. So I'm, I'm curious, like what are your colleagues doing to adapt rather than fight against technology and, and it's kind of interesting being in a computer science department, you know, you think they'd be leading that charge.
Cheryl Swainer: Well, I can't answer that for them, right? Cause I don't know what they're doing. But I do know a lot of plagiarism and [00:39:00] cheating does take place on college campuses. Okay? Period. Students cheat period, and it's not going anywhere. Okay? Students will forever cheat and, and maybe I shouldn't be saying this, my philosophy on cheating is, If you're gonna cheat, you better know what you're cheating about because you will see it again.
Because in computer science you can cheat your way through a degree. But when you try to go get that job at Google, Intel, Microsoft, and you gotta stand before those software engineers and prove that you know how to write code in a certain amount of time accurately, that'll be, you know, the test. That'll be the true test because you won't [00:40:00] have no chat g PT in front of you.
You'll just have a document to say you have a degree, but it, that degree won't say that you know how to code, but it's supposed, quote unquote, say, it's supposed to say you know how to code, but that doesn't mean anything. And so this is my thing. You know, I don't want the students to cheat. I really don't because I want them to get it for themselves. But if they do decide to cheat, I just would hope that they would understand the content, you know? So if they use tech PT to solve a problem, I hope they understand the code that was generated
Mattie: I like, I like what you said. Yeah. Understand the content that's generated. I think like, you know, if, I imagine there's a lot of code that's kind of redundant and it's like, do this thing, do this thing [00:41:00] that, like chat g p t can give you that code. And maybe if you had to manually write that, that takes a couple hours.
Um, I think, you know, having conversations with people that, if I had like a, a army of developers to work on whatever I would want, I wouldn't want them to spend time writing code. That's like very basic level. But of course I would want them to understand the code that's being generated. I'd rather them, you know, spend time ideating or very creative solutions are more, um, you know, just. You know, whatever it is, rather than just inputting manual code, I think they, their time could be used better. Um, yeah, so to go to your point, like people won't have chat g PT while they're working. I mean some companies are banning it completely for sure, but then other companies aren't. So like, if your company is using as allowing chat g pt, then I think it goes the same with like, um, interviews.
If you're asking questions that can be solved by chat [00:42:00] G P T, then like, what are you actually interviewing? You know? And a code bot can, can do that code. Obviously you want them to understand the output. So wouldn't it be better to like, Hey, here's a problem, put it in chat PT and let's go through it and tell me about that.
Rather than actually writing a code, cuz I know Jenny, you've talked about sometimes interviews can be a lot of pressure, right? And so if you can take the pressure of like someone watching you write code off the interviewee, like that's just gonna help with, you know, making the, these companies more accessible to people that I, you know, as a black person, they, they might have not been interviewed by someone at Google or IBM or whatever company.
And to have that pressure to come in and have to code live, like I could, I could see that, you know, disadvantaging people that aren't prepared to do that.
Jenny has a hot day.
Jenni: I see your point, but in an interview you wanna make sure people [00:43:00] understand the basics. So if Ja Chat Chi PT is gonna put, gonna output, you know, you ask it a question and it outputs a code snippet, you wanna know they have the under, at least the basic understanding to say, is this junk code or is it not?
Right? Because someone's gotta go through it and, and, and think about it. So. I have to think about that a little more. And I'm older, so I'm like, I don't know. I didn't have this when
Mattie: I did it. So everybody had to do it. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So that's, I feel like that is the actual conversation that's not being had by everybody. It's always the, well, I had to do it, so now you have to do it. But then like, You don't write all your emails by hand and then send them off, or you don't calculate every No, I'm talking about like by, by pencil and paper
Jenni: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah.
Mattie: as we get more technology, we move on and we accept it as it is what it is. And you know, Chachi, PT Hallucinates, and it's like pretty bad code. But that's now what [00:44:00] about a decade from now? What about this, this generator? This generator of AI is just so pervasive in our society that, you know, it's everywhere and it's like very, very, very good.
And we all trust it because we've been doing it. Like at that point are you gonna say like, Hey, don't use this because I didn't have this. But like, if you can do the, if you can 10 x your work, you know,
Jenni: So I think work and interview are two different things, so, right. Um, and every company's gonna have their own policy and we definitely don't like, wanna put our, um, what do you call our, our intellectual property onto the internet just to be like asking questions about it. So you've gotta, you know, maybe there's gonna be some tools that are gonna like out to skate, like the business out of code to put it in there.
But, so I don't know. But,
Siara: I think, you know, ai, this especially this generative AI, is just a tool. I still think that, [00:45:00] you know, it's not a replacement for you having the knowledge and skills to actually be able to do what it is that you need to do. And I think to Maddie's point, how do you know with. The education sector coming alongside this new tech to say like, this is here, this is a tool.
How do we use this tool, you know, to educate students and sort of not make it taboo, but also drilling the fact that, you know, you, you still have to know the foundation of the information. You have to be able to understand, you know, what's being output here. Like Jenny said, is this junk code or not? Is this legit or not?
You have to know, um, that what it's giving you is true because as we've tested before, this is not a replacement for the actual knowledge.
Cheryl Swainer: That's one thing I was telling, um, my, um, participants in my seminar. [00:46:00] You can prompt, you know, the chat bot, you know, with certain, you know, um, questions, but you better check your responses. Cause even during our seminar yesterday, some of the responses that got bad were incorrect because the number one, the prompt wasn't clear and concise. So you gotta validate that the responses are what you're looking for. Cause otherwise you submit that as your homework, you know, solution for your homework, your professor, your teacher right away you cheat, right? Cause you didn't answer the question. And so yesterday the student write. Java, but the assignment asked for Python.
Jenni: Whoops.
Cheryl Swainer: So the code was written, right, but it written
Siara: Right.
Cheryl Swainer: language, right? [00:47:00] And so not gonna have code be generated. You need to compile and execute your code to see if it even works and produces the right, you know, question. You know? But even on the flip side, you know, professors can use, you know, this generative AI to, um, generate lesson plans to generate, you know, questions for exams.
I, I see the positive of it, but I also see the negative of it. But it could make both the students and the instructor, you know, even better at what they're doing. And it definitely helps the students. In the learning process, it would definitely, um, facilitate the learning process. Cause everybody learns differently, right?
And so if this tool is gonna help you, cause what we learned, cause we, um, analyzed both had g, PT [00:48:00] and Board right? And there's some slight differences even though basically fundamentally they're the same. But we noticed that you, like when they were using Chad GT and um, and say for example, when they were trying to solve this equation, um, this algebraic equation, it gave them step by step everything.
And it also gave them an explanation, ok. A clear explanation. And so that to me, that alleviates going to office hours to get help. That alleviates going to the tutor, you know, to get help.
Jenni: I f I feel like we fast forwarded to the heat check section cause this is.
Mattie: Yeah, a little bit. Sorry, I'm, I'm coming in hot. I'm coming in hot. I, Yeah. So I recently switched, uh, to a new role, uh, as a associate product manager. And I work alongside a lot of just like highly technical people, whether they're data scientist or [00:49:00] you know, developers. And one of my main use cases for chat G P T is that personalized tutor, right?
So someone says this random thing that just says highly technical term, whatever that is, Hey, chat, G P T, what is this? Can you explain this math concept? It'll explain it. Now I want you to explain that to me, like I'm 12 and use metaphors and it does that. And now I have some foundational concept, understanding of that, you know, the idea, the jargon, whatever the term is.
And then I can build up from there. And instead of, you know, using. These people's time. I have just like an immediate response, an immediate question that I have, boom answer, and however kind of perspective I wanna look at. That's kind of, I think, yeah.
Jenni: that, that's a valid work use case, but I, I, I think our debate is interview versus work. Right? So in an interview, I just want, I'm trying to gauge what level of understanding you have on concepts [00:50:00] and also your thought process to solving that. So, um, I don't know. It's kind of like you do, do kids taking their driver's test still have to parallel park cuz cars can parallel park for you today. But I
was,
Mattie: need to.
Jenni: if I'm flying on a plane and a, a plane has actually, when I was trying to find heat checks so that this came up where, um, pilots skills are kind of decreasing because they rely on autopilot too much. If there's an emergency are and, and like all the technology goes away, can you steer this ship and land me safely?
In that case, I would wanna make sure they have the basics. I don't mind them using the technology, but if I'm trying to evaluate someone to take this role as piloting, piloting the plane I'm on, I wanna make sure that they could, you know, can execute the basics.
Mattie: Yeah, I guess in that case, Jenny, I would, I would think of something like this. Like you have the problem statement and together with the interviewee, you say, you know, put this in the chat g pt, and I've seen this like, um, with teachers, they'll [00:51:00] say like, write this essay based on this book and then critique the essay.
So, you know, you could have the problem statement, you put it in the chat, pt, you write the code, and then the interviewee like adds, you know, other requirements, I want it to look like this and do this thing and blah, blah, blah. So you get to see kind of how they're thinking about the problem, right? And then chat, PT generates that code, and then together you work through the code and you say, you know, this might not work because of this, this would change.
I would edit this way. But the, you know, 80% of the work is done and they don't have to manually code. And then you can have a conversation about like, why the code's good. What would you do different? How would you implement this into your, your workflow or how, what kind of problems do you see? I think like doing something like that rather than watching them code, cuz you know, That is high pressure.
And if you really only have 30 minutes to an hour, like are you really gonna have a lot of conversation? Are you gonna get to know that person? You're gonna get to see them work and depending on, you know, what school they came from, they might [00:52:00] be like more adept to handling that pressure.
Jenni: I
see your
Mattie: feel very strongly about
Jenni: I
Siara: a.
Mattie: I think it's,
Jenni: Okay. So, um, let's move along. Uh, so what programs, Cheryl, do you think companies should implement to increase black talent in technology?
Cheryl Swainer: Well, I, I believe that, um, organizations, um, should, um, maybe have an in-house program for undergraduate students, specifically for black students, to give them that experience and that exposure. To work in a high tech company or in a company, in a tech company period. Cause a lot of times black students have gone to the H B C U undergrad.
A lot of times black [00:53:00] students who are in computing do not often get the opportunity to work at these types of companies. And I know a few years, black back, um, Google had a similar type program where I would like to see more organizations specifically target students who are black, give them that exposure to give them the opportunity to work in a high tech company.
Otherwise they really will not know what it's like to work in those types environments. And one way to do that is to target. Students who attend HBCUs, although there are students who go to, uh, PWIs who happen to be black, but give them that opportunity, have programs that are actually set up for that.
You know, and that not just saying we are going to, um, say, uh, Morehouse or Spellman. [00:54:00] Cause a lot of times organizations like the Target Black students who are at Morehouse and Spelman, as if there are no other hbcu. So don't just target the Spelman's and the Morehouse. Go to the places like I graduated from Albany State, Fort Valley State, you know, Claflin University, smaller university, who have brilliant students, right.
So that they have the opportunity to be exposed to, you know, to tech companies like Google, like Facebook, you know, Like entail all the major, you know, um, companies, say for example, that are out there in California, right? In view area, in the view area. And so Silicon Valley is what they call it. And so I think it's important that, um, these organizations be very [00:55:00] intentional about hiring and giving black students the opportunity to learn, um, about working in what I call corporate America, which is an old term, but, um, yeah, they need an opportunity.
So they need to create a program specifically for black undergraduate students who, who, who are in stem. Um, the opportunity if they choose to do that, you know, And not just get, I'm gonna say this and I might not be popular for saying this, but not just the people with the 3.5 or better
Jenni: Mm-hmm.
Cheryl Swainer: and just because the student have a 3.5 or better, they may have cheated to get there, but then you might have the one with the 3.0 who work really hard, say at the PWI to get that [00:56:00] 2.5 and may no more, you know, academically in computer science than the student that went to the hbcu that got a, that got the 4.0.
Jenni: yeah,
Siara: very valid.
Cheryl Swainer: Those grades, huh?
Because those, that's, yeah. Cause those grades are earned for black students at, I know that for a grades are earned, they're not given. They're not given, they're earned.
So, and sometimes I'm being a little biased here and sometimes those black students who are at those PWIs who, who get seized outta the data tructure class, they could probably go to, I'm gonna get in trouble for this, but they may could go to some other schools schools and get an A like that because of the exposure [00:57:00] that they've had in that.
They've in those tough courses. I know I'm get trouble for saying that, but it's the truth.
Siara: No, we appreciate your candor.
Cheryl Swainer: yes. Yes. So I said give 'em all, if they got at least a 2.0, a greater give a chance. I believe everybody deserves at least one chance. If they graduated, give them a chance, right? Give them a chance. If they have a desire to work in the techs with these large tech companies, give them a chance.
Give them a chance.
Mattie: I actually love your answer. Um, you know, coming from education myself, I think, you know, I've, with the kind of, uh, the Supreme Court's decision on affirmative action, I kind of see the other perspective on like, I. You're, you're trying to [00:58:00] solve a problem that's like so far down the funnel when you should instead start at the beginning and like the exposure for students.
Like just, you know, you know, pros did the take your kid to Workday, like how many, how many kids that came to the company are in any company that comes to the take your kids to Workday that had no idea what their parents did in corporate environment or a tech company. And now it's like, oh, this is now something I have seen someone do.
I've seen my parents do, or I've seen other people that look like me. And just like bringing kids in for a day like that. Those memories and that experience and exposure will do a lot more than I think people kind of understand.
Cheryl Swainer: And also having your kids be involved in these different computing camps early on, you know?
Siara: Exposure is so important, just exposing them to it and then they can decide you know, [00:59:00] what they want to do. Okay.
Jenni: Yeah. Cause as far as I know, it's not standard curriculum. It's not like English, math, computer science, which at this point I feel like it should be. Um, so it's kind of up to the parents to get that early exposure.
Cheryl Swainer: And I agree with you on that because you know, the Fed federal government cannot mandate, you know, that computer science be a part of the core curriculum, and it should be because there's nothing in our society almost that you do, where you don't use technology. I mean, technology s every aspect of our lives and it should be a part of the core curriculum.
Everybody should given the opportunity to learn about technology, just like you had to learn that was [01:00:00] required. And you know, I used to be that teacher. I used to be that teacher, and I'm gonna tell you something, but I changed. You know what I changed? I have four children, they're all grown now, but one of my kids ended up, you know, well, was disabled, right? And so one of my kids had learning challenges, right? And she could not do math without a calculator.
Siara: Wow.
Cheryl Swainer: She learned math by doing, using a calculator. So my mind and my heart changed because everybody learns differently. And so at the end of the day, if you know how to use a type of technology, [01:01:00] Make your life and your job easier, why not? What's wrong with it? That's not cheating to me. It's smart to know how to use it, right?
Cause some people don't even know how to use different types of technology, right? I don't mind if my students use the cell phone. I really don't. But it took me personally going through something where my daughter could not learn without the technology. Right? And guess what? My daughter is a computer engineer today.
She was told she could never graduate from high school. She was everything she learned up to the age of six. That's all she would know. But thank God for the technology, because the technology assisted her in graduating from high school, in college with honors and becoming a software engineer at. [01:02:00] Straight outta college, so I'm glad you mentioned that about the calculator. And some people don't have those experiences where the light bulbs have come on or where they had some kinda personal encounter where they understand, you know, why technology needed and that's why we're having an issue with chat gt, right?
Because just like writing essays, maybe when those kids were in middle school or in high school, they had the worst English teacher. They really didn't teach how to write.
Siara: Absolutely. Um, I'm, I'm glad that your heart changed about that, and I'm hoping, you know, with, uh, AI coming into the forefront that you know, more educators, more parents, more, um, Organizations will adopt it as a tool to use. Um, and it be a positive influence on, you know, a [01:03:00] student's work or an employee's work, um, while still, you know, I don't wanna say force, but still having them, you know, understand the foundations of what it is that they, the context in which they're working and that this is just a tool and it's not bad.
It's not the enemy. So, Well, thank you Dr. Swer for sharing with us. Um, we are moving into the heat check segment of the episode. Um, the heat check is where we find, um, current topics that are happening, whether it's in technology, um, or black culture. Um, and Dr. Swer, if you have any, um, opinions on anything that we share, please feel free to jump in.
Um, I'm gonna pick on Maddie today to go first.
Mattie: I knew that was happening. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's all right. I'm prepared also coming with a hot take. Um, so [01:04:00] show of hands, how many people here have, uh, Amazon Prime? 1, 2, 3. Jenny with the slow hand raise? Yeah so recently moved to, uh, Seattle. Um, so, you know, Amazon's huge here, so.
And Amazon Prime Day was, um, you know, a couple days ago, I think July 12th and the 13th, it was two day event. Um, this article is from Tech Crunch. It says Amazon boasts a record sale for Prime Day as US shoppers spent $12.7 billion during this sales event. Um, yeah, so I actually fell for one of these things.
I bought AirPods. I've been wanting them, but I've been wanting 'em for like two years. So I don't, I don't care. I also was gonna buy a standing desk, but then, you know, I was like online and I was like, kind of looking at, you know, what people are saying. And a lot of people were saying that, you know, Amazon will raise their prices beforehand or, you know, just slap on like a, this is for sale and it actually hasn't changed.
I was wondering if you [01:05:00] guys had bought anything and you noticed this. Um, and then the, I guess the second part of that was the desks that I I bought, which is, uh, like one of those standing desks I'm very excited about. Um, Instead of buying it on Amazon, I actually just went to Facebook marketplace and was able to find like someone that was moving and get the exact same desk that I was gonna buy for, you know, like $90 cheaper.
And I feel better because I wasn't giving my money to Amazon. So I'm, I'm curious, like, do you guys like, participate in these events or do you, not try to give your money to these giant corporations?
Siara: I'll speak on this. I did not, uh, purchase anything for Prime Day this year. I think previously I probably would've been like, what can I go on here and find and buy just because it's on sale? Um, similar situation with me. I also wanted a standing desk and I searched and I searched and I searched, and I went to Facebook Marketplace and found the one that I wanted for like a hundred bucks cheaper.
[01:06:00] Um, I don't know. I'm not necessarily moved anymore about the big, you know, these big sales that. That people are having any more? Um, I can't say that I hate Amazon because I use them all the time, but I am aware of all of the, the things that happened. But no, I did not participate in, in Prime Day this year, and I had not noticed any like price hikes before, before Prime Day came down.
Cheryl Swainer: Well, I didn't participate with with Prime Day this year at all. You know, I'm trying to move away for participating in those type events, you know, so,
Jenni: Um, I've been reading a lot of these are the prime day. These are things you can find on Prime day. So I like to eat like, [01:07:00] like, uh, internet window shop. So I, I just go through, I always add things to the cart, but I didn't really find anything that I was like ready to like, yeah, I absolutely need this. So,
Siara: Yeah, my,
Jenni: but I shop at Amazon all the time.
Siara: do definitely have my, uh, what is it like your wish list? It's probably several hundred dollars full at this point, but I did not press, did not add to cart anything for Prime Day.
Jenni: Yeah.
Siara: All right, Jenny, you wanna go next or you want me to go?
Jenni: I could go. Um, so I've read a article on the newsletter from the pragmatic engineer, uh, Twitter versus Instagram threads. Two different approaches, approaches to throttling. Um, so I did kind of hear this through the grapevine that Twitter was like limiting the number of posts [01:08:00] that people could read and write, and I was like, that's weird.
Um, but this article kind of goes more into it. It's kind of more of a change management thing where I think, um, they were, I think the official messages was, well, we're, we're doing this so we can keep up with, um, scammers and bots and making sure that. Reducing the amount of, you know, that, those threats to, to the community.
Uh, but right, that's been the case. And, um, you know, all these social media companies have, you know, mature processes on, on how they handle that, but it seems like it's more of a change management where they were rolling off of Google Cloud and they hadn't yet set up the infrastructure to handle their, their load or the, you know, the amount of, um, traffic that they get, um, based on that.
So poor planning is what I put that under and, and like [01:09:00] poor, um, customer experience, like all that should be transparent to, to your community as, as far as, you know, what, you know, what I need to spin up and down to make sure we can handle 1 million users versus 2 million users doing. You know, however many tweets a day.
I don't know how, how much. Um, and I, I think that's the what the rest article is talking about, that now that threads is out, that's already very mature platform because it's basically Facebook and, and um, Instagram. And so I think they said Mark Zuckerberg was hoping to get to like 1 billion users, um, which I'm kind of surprised we're not at 1 billion users on Twitter.
I dunno, I didn't look into that. Um, but I just thought that was very interesting. And kind of going back to the conversation we had before where, you know, what is the curriculum and what should a basic understanding of what's happening, um, right. In school, I think I took econ, so I have a ba basic understanding of supply and demand.
And I took, you know, [01:10:00] other classes. So I have basic understandings of things. If everyone doesn't have a basic understanding of where your data is and what the threats are to your data and there's no course in your, you know, to get, you know, to graduate high school, I think everyone should have a ba like.
Be instructed on the things you need to be aware of, of how, um, what's your, what's your footprint on the internet or you know, out there means. And so this is one of the things. So I thought it was interesting.
Siara: I have a question. Has anyone gotten on threads?
Jenni: I don't think it's supported on Android cause I didn't see that option.
Mattie: Oh gosh, Jenny.
Siara: Jenny.
Mattie: Google. Google. Google Podcast.
Siara: my goodness.
Jenni: I deliberately went to Instagram thinking I would get an alert that said join threads and it did not happen. So,
Siara: day. We will convert you one day.
Mattie: Yeah. I read something, I [01:11:00] don't know if this is true and so take it with a grain of salt, but it was something like 20 people in three months created threads. Um, and so like with, yeah, with the layoffs, you know, condensing the pyramid, people are just able to move or these companies are able to just move really fast.
I'm sure they use some generative AI and stuff.
Jenni: No, no, no, no, no. Okay. 20 people in three months based off all that foundation of application code from Facebook and Instagram. They didn't write it from scratch in three months.
Siara: So I actually read, I didn't read the whole article, but I saw like a headline of like Threads was developed like two years ago from someone who actually worked at Meta and I think it was Facebook before they changed their name and it was like presented and it never went anywhere. And then all of a sudden they re-presented it and it took off.
I think they had like 2 million users signed up in the first two hours
Jenni: definitely hit a record. It definitely hit a [01:12:00] record. I think it's cuz it's tied to Instagram, right? You do
Mattie: Yeah. I like, I also, yeah, I saw that huge number and then I, I, I stumbled across a, uh, post that was like, the user, user base is like, Going down, which makes sense. You know, it's a new thing, people wanna jump into it. I'm not convinced people are gonna leave Twitter. Um, I don't, I don't think Elon can can really destroy that ecosystem as much as people think he can.
Siara: I, he's doing a, he's doing a bankrupt
Jenni: I think it's possible. I think it's possible. Yeah.
Siara: um, say that threads feels like the original Facebook, when Facebook first came out and you can only sign up through your college where you were just posting your random thought of the day and it was just this thread of things people are talking about.
Um, and I was like, I can, I can get that vibe for sure. I'm not on there a lot, but I was one of the 2 million [01:13:00] to, to go sign up. All right, so my heat check for today is, um, our article that I came across on c n n, um, f b I is warning consumers against, um, using public phone charging stations, um, in order to avoid exposing their devices to malicious software.
Um, I don't know that I've ever used one of those public charging systems, but I guess this makes sense. Um,
Jenni: The airport.
Siara: No, I stay, I stay charged. My anxiety won't let me go somewhere where I'm not gonna be with my charger and not be fully juiced up. Um, public u sb stations like the kind found at malls and airports are being used to spread malware, um, and monitoring software.
According to a tweet last week from the FBI's Denver branch, the agency advised to carry your own charger and USB cord and use an electrical outlet instead. The cords you use for your phone is [01:14:00] also used to send data from your phone to other devices. Um, so obviously you plug a cord into it and you can transfer files and things of that nature.
And people are also like leaving cords at these public charging stations hoping that you will plug your information in and transfer the data. It's insane. So my heat check is just a warning to folks bring your own charger with you.
Jenni: Okay, so it's, it's the actual stations that you're, you're plugging that in, not just the electrical outlet that you plug
Siara: it a separate electrical outlet is fine. It's just those hubs.
Jenni: Uh, yeah, I agree. I'm only using my equipment. I'm not,
Cheryl Swainer: So
Jenni: I don't,
Siara: Yes. the um, you know, you go and you see those charging banks, they've got several little ports on there where you can go and charge your phone if you need to. You don't have a charger with you. They're saying don't do it. [01:15:00] People, if people are getting locked out of their phones, viruses put,
Jenni: I don't join wifi either. I don't use other people's wifi.
Siara: I don't either.
Jenni: No. Yeah.
Siara: If I have bad service, I just have bad service.
Jenni: Yeah. It's like bad. Yeah.
Siara: right.
Mattie: cuz you don't have Apple.
Jenni: That is not, no, that is irrelevant to this conversation. Do
Mattie: I don't know. I don't know. iPhones. iPhones have pretty good security.
Jenni: No they don't
Siara: She's not coming to, she's not coming to the
Jenni: That is a misconception. That is don't, yeah, don't believe that. Don't join random wifis cause
Mattie: Especially if you have Android.
Siara: You're never gonna escape this, Jenny, until you convert.
Jenni: No, I'm never gonna convert cuz it's interesting content for our banter.[01:16:00]
Mattie: Will she, won't she tune? Tune in next time on the next episode.
Siara: We wanna thank you again, Dr. Swier, for joining us today as well as all of you listening in. If you enjoyed this conversation, share the show with your colleagues, friends and family. Drop us a line@interfacepodcast.com or fond us at on LinkedIn. Your feedback, is important to keep the show valuable and relevant.
So please rate and review us on whatever platform you're listening from. We encourage you to go out and continue this conversation and even start your own.