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The City to City Podcast features thoughtful conversations on gospel-centered ministry in cities around the world. Hosted by Abe Cho, Brandon O’Brien, and John Onwuchekwa, the show explores church planting, renewal, and the theological foundations shaping ministry in complex urban contexts.
Unknown
You've tuned in to the city the city podcast. I'm Brandon O'Brien, one of your hosts. My co-hosts are Abe Cho and John Onwuchekwa, and we hope that this podcast will spark conversations about planting and pastoring churches in cities. Now, this is our very first conversation. And, so in the next few minutes, you'll get to know us a little better and you'll get to know better what we hope to accomplish in this episode and in future conversations.
00:57:31:00 - 00:57:49:17
Unknown
We're really glad you're here. Gentlemen. This is the maiden voyage of the City to City podcast. Here we go. Let's go. There comes a time in every man's life when he has to launch a podcast. And the time has come for us. That's right. That it took this long is a little surprising, actually. But here we are.
00:57:49:19 - 00:58:12:10
Unknown
We were holdouts, right? Right. That's right. That's right. So this is the very first, episode of a brand new podcast. And our job today is to introduce ourselves and to introduce what we imagine will happen, in this podcast and with the caveat that it's a journey and we'll learn things along the way and it may change, but, yeah.
00:58:12:10 - 00:58:43:13
Unknown
So let's let's talk about what we think will happen here. Before we talk about what it is, why a podcast now versus saying, well, at one level, this is our 25th anniversary. And so it's a natural kind of milestone that prompts both, you know, a little bit of retrospection and also kind of projection, right. Looking ahead and I think a lot has happened in the cities in the world in the first 25 years.
00:58:43:15 - 00:59:08:22
Unknown
And as we look to the future, I think one really important piece that I think we have to cultivate is, you know, if Tim Keller did a lot of reflection around the themes of gospel city and movement to a degree that it really helped to give direction to or connect with a very broad audience, there is a need for similar kinds of reflection going into our future gospel city and movement.
00:59:09:00 - 00:59:42:16
Unknown
Cities change every 20 years or whatnot, and that piece is probably only accelerating with the generations kind of shrinking in in length or whatnot. And so there's just a need for proactive reflection. And so I don't know. My hope is that this podcast gets a conversation going between the three of us. But also it's a much broader thing than that, that we're hoping the kinds of conversations that we're able to spark here are the conversations that are relevant to the 21st century city, in ways that a lot of the reflection that Tim was doing was so relevant to the city at the time when he moved to New York.
00:59:42:16 - 01:00:14:18
Unknown
So that's the first thing that comes to mind. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I might add to that that the timing is right in this, as you described, because of this kind of milestone in City City's history, but also the global network of city, the city, the regions are mature, right. And they've got there's practitioners in every part of the world doing really great work there, thinking about how this shared DNA that kind of holds the city's city network together, might manifest differently in different places.
01:00:14:18 - 01:00:32:11
Unknown
And you know how do we think about following the model of what Redeemer and Tim Keller did in New York City, but do it in, you know, Dubai or do it in Tel Aviv or someplace, and it's going to look different, right? And there's probably a time we didn't have people in all of those places doing that reflection.
01:00:32:11 - 01:00:58:17
Unknown
But now, now there are people there. And they're mature and they're effective. And so it's a really exciting time to start not just broadcasting out conversation, but to stimulate that reflection back from every part of the field, which is pretty exciting. Yeah. Yeah. And what that sparks to me, too, is, you know, there was a time where.
01:00:58:19 - 01:01:20:00
Unknown
A lot of people kind of saw the future of cities as kind of moving on this inexorable path toward secularization and so there's almost a sense in which what was happening in New York and the path of New York towards secularization, that other cities across the world were, you know, just a few steps behind, but essentially would take something of a similar path.
01:01:20:02 - 01:01:48:06
Unknown
And I think what we're seeing now is that that that thesis is not really playing out. Right. So this path to secularization is not an inevitability. And instead, what we're seeing actually, is that the 21st century city is more religious than it ever was, more ideological than it ever was. And, and in that sense, more, particular than some kind of broadly cosmopolitan kind of general city culture.
01:01:48:08 - 01:02:12:09
Unknown
And so I think there's something about that trend, too, that makes us say, oh, our greatest asset for city to city are the practitioners that you talked about, like, we're not going on this linear path towards some feature of a secular city. Actually, the paths are quite diverging. There are themes and trends that hold us together, but the divergence of those paths and, different religious backgrounds, those paths are unfolding in actually matter a lot.
01:02:12:11 - 01:02:36:09
Unknown
And we can't do that reflection from the West. And to have practitioners who have been living out of advancing, enriching the DNA for sometimes 20 years. Yep. For them to be reflecting on those contexts, I think is going to be really fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's, and I think we may get into this.
01:02:36:11 - 01:03:12:00
Unknown
Yeah, later, but I think it's it's intriguing. I think that at this point, the founder of the org, you know, Tim Keller, passed a few years ago. And now, yeah, like you said, it's like there's a different set of problems. And I just think of, like, how different the world is pre 2020. Right, right. So it's it's not even like like there is no cookie cutter like playbook do x, y and Z.
01:03:12:00 - 01:03:51:16
Unknown
Right. There is anatomy right. In terms of all right. We have a sense of kind of how the how how the bones of our faith work. And but now it is this, you know, brave new world. And there is, collection of people that are connected who wouldn't have been connected 25 years ago. So I think it's an incredible opportunity for this new group of people to tackle and address and to think through really a new slate of problems.
01:03:51:16 - 01:04:15:07
Unknown
Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. And that's an exciting prospect. But the questions themselves are interesting. And it's always changing. As you mentioned, the realities of cities are changing, but even the dynamics of when you think of an urban population that can be a multinational population in some cities or it's not in others, and it could be a religiously diverse population in one city and it's not in others.
01:04:15:07 - 01:04:38:01
Unknown
And so even that kind of core commitment to city ministry, right. There are no two cities that are exactly the same. Right. So it's exciting already. But the idea that we have such a wealth of experience internationally to connect you, I think, is also really exciting. Yeah. Which maybe is kind of a segue to the question of what do we hope to do here?
01:04:38:01 - 01:05:06:07
Unknown
We've come really close to, promising some things in this podcast. I would say one of the things that people can expect they follow along is, that we do want to introduce them in various ways to the leaders that we're referencing here in different parts of the world, doing unique ministry. We're thinking through, how to apply and embody our shared values in very different kinds of environments.
01:05:06:09 - 01:05:24:16
Unknown
And whether they're on as guests or we have recordings or we're sharing their stories, we want to model for folks what we do a lot, which is that we're hearing these stories that are shaping how we think about things. We're learning from, the folks that we work with in these different environments. And we want other people to hear those stories, too.
01:05:24:18 - 01:05:51:08
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, such an important piece to it because when, even when I look at my kid, you know, they were born and raised in New York, very diverse city. So they've been exposed to a lot of different kinds of Christianity. But since I've started my role as city to city, they've been able to connect to the global church and meet, at times, other kids their age of leaders from all different continents.
01:05:51:08 - 01:06:11:21
Unknown
And so there's something beautiful about the global church, and it's exciting and it doesn't make headlines. It's street level type work. There's something exciting about the global church that, for me helps kind of put back into context some of the stuff that's happening in the American church, like in America. We can kind of see ourselves at the center of the universe.
01:06:11:21 - 01:06:39:18
Unknown
But when you get connect to the global church, you're like, wow, there are incredibly complex challenges. And so I think those voices and those people, I'm always humbled and I always walk away, say, man, these are great people thinking about really important things. I think another thing that I don't know if this is a promise, but I think will at least unearth interesting questions for urban ministry, whether we'll have clear answers, will remain to be seen.
01:06:39:18 - 01:07:02:04
Unknown
And oftentimes we probably won't and maybe shouldn't have those clear answers. But I think there will be interesting questions that you face when you're doing ministry in major cities, and they're going to resonate in different ways. If we're talking about something that's happening in, Latin America, it may not resonate directly in different cities, but the themes, I think will be similar enough where it'll be interesting question that we're unearthing.
01:07:02:04 - 01:07:25:22
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's, This was years ago. I don't know if you still remember it. Put it in my dissertation and I quoted you. You called me. I did. It may not have been from you, but you were the person I heard it from. Okay, I put it in writing, all right, but it was from from from the, church thing, right?
01:07:25:22 - 01:07:48:21
Unknown
You were like. There was a point in time. It was those four things, right? That the church was, are not the church. Christianity was about. Let's come on. Yeah. So what I remember was, I remember talking to a young woman in New York, and, you know, I was asking her like, hey, your friends, I don't know, Gen Z or whatever.
01:07:48:21 - 01:08:06:04
Unknown
Your friends. What kind of questions are they asking about Christianity? Yeah. And her response was like, well, first of all, most of my friends aren't even thinking about Christianity. But if they were, they're not wondering whether Christianity is true. Yeah. They're not even wondering if it's good because it's like, hey, if it's good for you, it's good.
01:08:06:05 - 01:08:21:14
Unknown
That's cool. Whatever. Yeah. The main question is keeping them away from the church is not whether it's true, whether it's good. They're asking, is it safe for me? Yeah. To show up in a church, is is a church going to be a place where it's safe for me to be weak or vulnerable or, you know, whatever it is.
01:08:21:19 - 01:08:43:07
Unknown
And that question like, is Christianity safe? Yes. I think is part of the question that we're wrestling through in our moment. Right. Is is it safe? Yeah. Is it safe for people of color? Is it safe for women? Is it safe? There all of these different questions that it's being raised right prior to. Like, I might even ask if it's true, if it's not safe.
01:08:43:08 - 01:08:59:12
Unknown
Right? Right. Right. Yeah. So. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. That that was it. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. Right. Because that's it. So I do think and this came up. Yeah. You know, kind of a long time. Right. Like there was a time where it's, you know, the predominant, the things that people were concerned about was like, is it real?
01:08:59:12 - 01:09:31:13
Unknown
Did Jesus really race from there? Let's go back and let's do all the the archeological stuff and we can see. All right. Yeah. He said that he got up from that and so was that. Then people got to is it true? Right. And then I think the predominant. Yeah. Question was, is it even good? I'm not sure if it's good or not, but like you do say, like we find ourselves in a world now where folks like, I mean, if it's good for you and it's good for me and it doesn't harm anybody, then that's fine.
01:09:31:15 - 01:09:59:18
Unknown
One of the biggest obstacles, but also is an incredible opportunity is that, we have a chance to talk about our faith in a way that doesn't hurdle the main concern that somebody else has. Right? But talk about the faith in a way that it says, oh, know that there have been very real ways that people have used Christianity to exploit, right?
01:09:59:19 - 01:10:33:16
Unknown
Or to advance an agenda or to demean people or to justify the harm from that standpoint. It is refreshing to have, that type of conversation about faith where eavesdroppers feel welcome because they're like, oh, you're hitting a very core concern of a thing that I have. And to say like, this is not an inconvenience. This is not a frustration.
01:10:33:16 - 01:10:59:10
Unknown
Like, oh, like, we got a start here, but this this is right, the very heart of the concern of what it is we're trying to do. And this is what everybody that's had an effective, vibrant faith in the world has done. They started a place where we hit the bull's eyes of people's hearts and concerns. And then when that bull's eyes hit, it gives a room for the rest of the faith to expand and, take root.
01:10:59:10 - 01:11:21:16
Unknown
And that's what we're trying to. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And as you were even describing, like, is it safe? I think in the US, that question is sort of is it psychologically safe or is it more or less safe in other parts of the world? Is it physically safe? Yeah. Or is it relationally like, can I become a Christian and still be a member of my family or of my community or whatever?
01:11:21:18 - 01:11:49:17
Unknown
And I think it's, really helpful as we're like navigating some of the questions are really important to us. Yeah. To, to, hold them alongside, like questions that are emerging in other parts of the world. Right, that are hurdles for other people. Right? Right. And it doesn't relative rise or diminish, but it's just as a helpful reminder that for leaders in ministry, not just for, for, people who have questions or for eavesdroppers.
01:11:49:18 - 01:12:10:20
Unknown
Yeah, but for people in ministry at least, like start to hone canned answers to specific questions, because we think those are the questions that people are asking, right? Sometimes we don't look widely enough to even see that the questions have changed in our neighborhood or our city or in our place, but we're even less aware of the questions beyond that in other parts of the world.
01:12:10:20 - 01:12:31:11
Unknown
And so, yeah, I think the three of us are all equally interested in or as interested in questions as an answer, right? Yes. Hopefully that won't be frustrating to people, but, but I do. Yeah. I think you're right that, I think it can grow our capacity to wrestle with the questions that are close to us.
01:12:31:12 - 01:13:07:18
Unknown
Yeah. When when we were also seeing the questions that are like further out. Absolutely. And I'm I hope that that capacity is actually something that characterizes city, the city, wherever it is in the world. And, yeah, it's a kind of exciting way to think about. We're there for sure. Maybe the last thing I'll add to this is just that we will, over and over again, bring these conversations back to kind of the city, the city DNA, those core, three elements gospel, city movement, and those three things are broad enough that they contain each of them multitudes.
01:13:07:18 - 01:13:27:15
Unknown
And so there's a lot we can talk about under all of those categories. But I think part of our challenge and opportunity would be to say, yeah, as we're doing that work of like answering the people, answering the questions that people are actually asking like that is a core part of what we mean when we talk about ministry in the city.
01:13:27:18 - 01:13:52:11
Unknown
Right? Contextualization. And it's engaging in culture and it's those things. And so bringing them back to, and kind of seeing how that lens of the shared DNA is helpful. And in addressing those questions, I think absolutely. The key part, and one of the things that you and I, I think I've talked about is, you know, it's one thing to look at the DNA and we ought to do that, and we ought to come back to the DNA regularly and routinely.
01:13:52:11 - 01:14:13:18
Unknown
So we should constantly be looking at it. Returning to it, but just staring at the DNA is not going to get us anywhere at some point. We also have to develop the skill of looking through the DNA at the world that God loves and died for. So how does the DNA not become an object that we look at, but become the lens through which we make sense of the world out there?
01:14:13:20 - 01:14:29:14
Unknown
Begin to hear the stories in the narratives of the world out there, and then begin to be able to narrate, the world through the lens of the gospel. Right. So I think there's a that secondary skill to that we're seeing again in all of our practitioners, for sure. But it's one of those things that we can forget.
01:14:29:14 - 01:14:52:05
Unknown
We can spend all our time looking at the DNA and we forget, oh, we're supposed to be looking through it. And I was, yeah, that I know.
01:14:52:07 - 01:15:16:03
Unknown
Okay, well, we've talked about this podcast, what we want to accomplish. Let's talk about our hosts. Yeah. So let's take a minute. Just, maybe we'll start with Abe. Tell us, your current role, city to city. What do you do for city to city and, maybe what's the, like, two minute version of what you were doing before cities?
01:15:16:04 - 01:15:40:07
Unknown
All right, so my name is Abe Joe, and, my title is VP for thought leadership at Redeemer City. The city, I've been in the role for maybe four years. Is that right? Yeah. Four years? Yeah. Four years. Almost. Almost five. Now, before this, I was, lead pastor at Redeemer East Side. So I did that for six years, but I was a pastor at Redeemer Presbyterian in Manhattan since 2007.
01:15:40:07 - 01:16:04:18
Unknown
So it's been 18 years, since doing that. I would say my first introduction to Tim Keller, to Redeemer, to City, to City was cassette tapes driving from seminary to the Korean church that I was working at in Connecticut. And so they were just listening to Tim Keller sermons and weeping as I'm driving along I-90, because the gospel became new and powerful to me in such a refreshing way.
01:16:04:20 - 01:16:25:01
Unknown
So ever since then, I was like this, this, this understanding the gospel, this love for cities, this view of culture. I was just drawn into it completely. And that would have been, you know, 25 years ago. And I was privileged enough to have an opportunity in 2007 to come to New York to be a pastor, and then stayed in there for a long time, boat and then city to city about four years ago.
01:16:25:03 - 01:16:51:14
Unknown
Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. John. Yeah. Yes. From John. And, what I've been in my role for, about two years now. The, senior director for, North American thought leadership and innovation. And so, what was it prior to this, I, I did a slate of things. I was a pastor for 16 years. Entrepreneur.
01:16:51:14 - 01:17:21:06
Unknown
And, for me, it was, what what was it? It's been it's been about three years now. After 16 years as a pastor, I kind of got to a point where I was just like, you know what? I think I'm good. I think I'm good. 16 years. I think I'm good. All the money is where it should be.
01:17:21:08 - 01:17:48:04
Unknown
Everybody's fine. We're all happy. And, it was just I had been in pastoral industry long enough where I saw things go south for people, and I don't think pastoring was the wrong. I think maybe for them it was just too long and they didn't have an imagination for what was next. And for me, I got to a point.
01:17:48:04 - 01:18:13:14
Unknown
This is seven years, go maybe. So four years before I even left where I was just, I felt that my heart and my burden grow for things that were outside of the context of what, I should have spent my time on in pastoral ministry. Funny enough, one of the things was, I had a conversation with Tim in the fall of 2020.
01:18:13:14 - 01:18:36:17
Unknown
I was 36 years old. I've been a pastor for what, 14 years at the time? And I was sharing with Tim about the stuff that I was involved in with, you know, so on a church plant network that was aimed at trying to help plant in distress in neglected black and brown places, I talk to him about the success of the portrait and the things that I wanted to create and all that.
01:18:36:17 - 01:19:02:19
Unknown
So and Tim was just on the phone, he's like, you know, you don't have to be a pastor forever. I was like, tell me more, because at this point it's like somebody started as a pastor and it was kind of like, in some ways, and sometimes it kind of felt like the, like worst kind of gang, where it's like the only way that you could get out how you had to die.
01:19:02:19 - 01:19:31:05
Unknown
Right? Yeah. They get chucked out the gay. So it's either. Yeah, you either you like die, you have a moral failure. Yeah. Or you just like burn out or you can't cut it. So I gotta quit I feel I fail and so I'm like Dag is that the only. Those are the only off ramps is the only honorable discharge retirement or death.
01:19:31:07 - 01:19:54:10
Unknown
My life. So that yeah. So, after that, I just kind of bounced around as a church planner. I learned, you know, I took stock and it's like, oh, I've actually created every job that I've ever had as long as I've worked. So it's like we can make money and we'll just let the Lord do what he did.
01:19:54:10 - 01:20:23:16
Unknown
And so I, I spent some time and, it worked for a few other organizations and then, Yeah, this, came around. Funny enough, I had no clue who Tim was until 20 years ago. I'm a college pastor, my first church, and I forget who got it. But we we like printed off a PDF off of Google, the central city of South Central.
01:20:23:17 - 01:21:03:22
Unknown
The gospel that. Yeah, it's like a word doc. Yeah. Times new role. Well 100% with the bold and it's like just very esthetically unimpressed. It's like this word blocky. Yeah. But reading through it, it was like oh it's like oh yeah, this is right now who wrote this. Right. And then just through there getting exposed to it, Tim and his thoughts and just I'd been, around a lot of people that made the faith.
01:21:03:23 - 01:21:34:04
Unknown
It was so true. It was very, like, clear. But to hear him and to get to know him, it's like, oh, no, no, this is real. Like you, you made it very, very, real. And so, yeah, it was through that and then served on a council with him for a few years and then left that and was just, hey, Tim, there's a part of you that I've seen in these worlds, it is like, oh, this is very, very much a part of you.
01:21:34:06 - 01:21:58:23
Unknown
But then I also see you broader than all of these small parts. Where do you where is the place that you feel like you can bring all of those things together? And that's how I found out about city. The city. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like we first met maybe shortly after you had that conversation with Tim. Yes. Because you had stepped down.
01:21:58:23 - 01:22:26:12
Unknown
And then I was stepping down from my role. Yeah. And we got on a zoom call. Right? Yeah I did Tim connect this. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Tim. Yeah, right. Him Tim was, Okay. This is what this is a great, great story. Yeah. I, send Tim an email. I pulled it off with, like we had talked in passing, getting M&Ms at a board meeting.
01:22:26:17 - 01:22:44:04
Unknown
So that's the only thing that I ever touch. And so I go to the, like, group via a message. Oh, yeah. 60 of us are on. Right? Right. And so I go through and I like okay, you paste boom. I'm like, yo, Tim, this is what I see. It's like, oh, I see that you're a part of this.
01:22:44:04 - 01:23:15:08
Unknown
But then I see that you do this, this and this, and I'm like, help me understand. And he's like, bingo, you saw it. And so I was like, oh, this is great. And so, like, hey, can can we like, talk and chat? And so he's. Yeah. And we sat and talked and he explained all of that. And then I think he linked us because, because it's right around the time that you sit there and we yeah, we sat and talked and, and then it was I think you were getting ready to move to city.
01:23:15:08 - 01:23:33:04
Unknown
The city. Yeah, I think so. Okay. Yeah. It was right in that transition time to Napier was a friend and me and her worked. Yeah. That's right. And this stuff. And then she's like, oh you should come out to this thing. And that was when it was I was in Miami. That was like first gathering. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah.
01:23:33:04 - 01:23:55:08
Unknown
And you said thing that. Right. People are going to hear this and I know. Yeah, I thought John came up with the, like, change moves at the speed of trust. Right. And just seeing the relational way that y'all built things, it's like, oh, this is dope. Yeah yeah yeah it's great. That's so. Yeah, yeah. And, I'm Brandon O'Brien.
01:23:55:08 - 01:24:18:14
Unknown
I'm the senior director for global thought leadership. I said, that's a lot of words. Yeah. And, I love these highfalutin titles, man. You know, we may need an episode in which we explain what we mean when we say yes. Leadership, right? Yes. This is not that episode, right? I've been with City of City approaching eight years, starting 2017.
01:24:18:16 - 01:24:46:03
Unknown
Before that, I did, a few things. I had pastored solo, pastored in very small churches. Most of them like rural, you know, Baptist churches. I, earned a PhD at Teds and was planning to go Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, then was planning to teach and, in a college or seminary, and worked in Christian publishing, sort of as I was going through grad school.
01:24:46:04 - 01:25:12:06
Unknown
And so I had developed over time, kind of three passions which are publishing, academia and, local church ministry. And I'd always kind of been able to do two of them, but I can never do. Right, right, right. And then, I was working actually in Arkansas, in a, in a academic position, and my wife and I started praying about church planting.
01:25:12:08 - 01:25:43:17
Unknown
We felt like we wanted to be part of church planting. Not sure why, because I'm not sure what prompted it because we had not been I wasn't a part of those conversations. I hadn't been to a conference or anything and read any of the books. But we were thinking about church planting, and we were thinking about a city that we we didn't know which city, but we just thought we'd wanted to be in an urban area and found city, the city, because we googled who could train us to plant a church in a city specifically.
01:25:43:19 - 01:26:06:00
Unknown
So we found city to city, and in that process, of kind of discerning whether it was time to church plant, I think we discerned that I am I do not have the profile for a church planter. I have a great profile for like church planters, friend or first hire after things start relatively past the initial chaos.
01:26:06:01 - 01:26:36:13
Unknown
Right. And I think now after doing this for almost a decade, pretty sure my wife has the profile for a church planter. So just putting that out of there, I was really not sure how she will receive that from, the podcast. But what it did get us connected with city. City in the role at the time was for director of content, which would involve overseeing the publishing efforts for city to City and being involved actively with church planting, interacting with pastors, etc..
01:26:36:15 - 01:27:01:08
Unknown
But the work being global and because of the sort of nuance of the DNA and the kinds of things didn't require an academic background, but it is really stimulating. And so having had an academic background, was a plus. But it also just was the first time I had ever encountered a role that felt like it could pull, pull all of those three things together.
01:27:01:10 - 01:27:23:07
Unknown
Which is pretty exciting. Yeah, I actually had never read a book by Tim Keller until I interviewed for my job at city of the city, and the person who interviewed me said, you should read Center Church before we meet and be prepared to tell me what you. That was your first job? That was my first Tim Keller read was in the church.
01:27:23:08 - 01:27:45:01
Unknown
Had you heard of him before? Like in other ways. Okay. I mean, no seminary. You know, when he kind of started publishing more and became prominent. I am a very I'm very averse to bandwagons. Yeah. And so at some level, I had avoided Tim's writing, not for any reason related to Tim, but just because I don't prejudice. It's fine.
01:27:45:01 - 01:28:05:12
Unknown
Yeah, right. Exactly. But I'm willing to accept it was my own moral failing. Everybody was talking about him, and I was like, well, I'm going to read something else then, you know? So, yeah, being looking at that, so, Mark Reynolds gave me two weeks to read Sinner Church, which is like a 400 page book.
01:28:05:12 - 01:28:26:19
Unknown
355, maybe it's five. Yeah, yeah. And, double columns, you know, so it's it's a lot. Oh, yeah. It's very and said, just, you know, be prepared to give me your thoughts. So there's a lot one could think about sinner church a lot of facts. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So that was my introduction to, you know, city to city.
01:28:26:19 - 01:28:55:22
Unknown
I unlike many people I interacted with city the city before I encountered Tim Keller. So I kind of had the reverse experience. And then, I was really drawn, because I was not yet familiar with Tim's work. What what I found so compelling was both the vision for ministry in cities. And as far as I know, there's no there's not another organization with the same sort of, narrowness of focus geographically.
01:28:55:22 - 01:29:14:08
Unknown
Like it's got to be cities. Yeah, there's a lot of church planting that happens in cities, but it's like right on the outside of cities, and you pull up the map and you realize that it's are all suburban church plant there and they're in the metro area, but they're not in the city. Right. And the fact that CSU was doing that, I thought was really exciting.
01:29:14:11 - 01:29:36:21
Unknown
And the global, make up of the network to me was really exciting. Yeah. So I was thrilled to death to be able to work, with church planners from different parts of the world. I'd coauthored a book. This will sound self-serving for a minute, but I promise it, it doesn't end that way. But I'd coauthored a book called Misreading Scripture with Western Eyes.
01:29:36:21 - 01:29:55:15
Unknown
It's about cultural bias and how it shapes how you read the Bible. I've found all that really interesting. And so the idea of connecting with the global network is really exciting. When I met Tim Keller for the first time during my interview process, he met me at the door, and because I wasn't all that familiar with him, he was much taller than I expected.
01:29:55:17 - 01:30:15:09
Unknown
And so and we were in a fairly tight New York office. I think I know the one. He was kind of, you know, very close, a little intimidated. Yeah. Shook my hand and he said, are you the Brandon O'Brien that coauthored Misreading Scripture with Western Eyes? And I said, yes, sir. And he looked at me. He said,
01:30:15:11 - 01:30:38:00
Unknown
And then he went and sat down, and I still you don't I don't know what that was. Well, well, so what does it all mean? No one knows. I never gets to ask him what he meant. So, But I'll just say that I think the, Yeah, my journey here was a little bit different, and I was a late comer to Tim and a little bit of a late comer to cities.
01:30:38:00 - 01:30:56:20
Unknown
We moved to New York for my work with cities he had not yet lived. It was your first time living this first time living in the city. I didn't know that. And so it is, again, even though it happened kind of late in life, I could definitely say that, like, a lot of people do, that time or center, church or city, a city, like really did change the trajectory of my life.
01:30:56:22 - 01:31:27:11
Unknown
I think my family is now unapologetically city people, my children especially. And, you know, I think that that we've I didn't have forever the passion for ministry in cities. But now I can't really imagine being involved in anything else. Yeah, I was crazy. I, I, I've read Tim's other stuff. Counterfeit God's the prodigal God. Was it prayer?
01:31:27:13 - 01:31:47:01
Unknown
Preach. Like I read all his joy and center church. I had it on my shelf. I don't think I read it until, like, on boarding when. That's right. Hey, in this you got to meet him and read, right? Yeah. Chapters 1 or 2, and I thumb through. Oh, my God, that's pretty good. Some good stuff. Yeah, yeah.
01:31:47:06 - 01:32:13:15
Unknown
I refer to center churches, often bought and seldom read. Oh, that's my, right. You know, it's, it is, it's it's intimidating and there's a lot there. And it is, it's. Yes, but I think it's your situation is not uncommon. Yeah. I mean, for it's what was fun for me was, you know, I don't know what year in a church came out, but I think I experienced it as, like, these white papers that some would just kind of be processing with staff.
01:32:13:17 - 01:32:33:19
Unknown
Yeah. Or, and we would just see them in sections. So, you know, some of the two by two chart and how we engage culture that we, you know, you and I were really looking at like that came up, I remember in some of these conversations and I remember seeing papers along the way. And then when I read through center at church, I was like, oh, that was that, oh, this is that.
01:32:33:21 - 01:32:42:04
Unknown
And it looks so much more official, right? Oh, about about that. But it's kind of it's kind of cool to see that piece together.
01:32:42:06 - 01:32:55:05
Unknown
You.
01:32:55:07 - 01:33:18:14
Unknown
So one of the things that we've been thinking about a lot, especially in the 25th anniversary, and as we think about what is the next 25 years look like, you know, we've already been talking about him and how influential he is and, how his vision is the way that he thinks about so many things continue to deeply shape obviously, everything that city city does.
01:33:18:16 - 01:33:38:05
Unknown
But as we looked at the next 25 years and we said, hey, we're we're going into uncharted territory, right? Like nobody's been to 2050. But that's where we're heading. And the question of like, well, how do we relate to Tim and the way he thought about things and his thought leadership? And I think as you and I were talking, you ended up writing a paper on this, developing it out.
01:33:38:06 - 01:33:58:19
Unknown
But it was, you know, we said, oh, we could relate to Tim maybe in one of three ways. One of them is we could relate to Tim like a GPS. And so he his work, his thought is ministry kind of gives us step by step directions. And as long as we follow the directions, it's going to get to where we're going.
01:33:58:21 - 01:34:21:14
Unknown
And my take is that there are probably lots of contexts where that actually probably would still work and be very, quite helpful. Right. Or we could relate to Tim, the way that you might relate to a map. So here's somebody who's laid out kind of known territory. You can try to find your own path there, but you know the terrain, you know, where the major turns are, you know, where you know, some of the hazards or whatnot.
01:34:21:16 - 01:34:44:15
Unknown
But he's laid out the terrain for us, and we can kind of use him in this thought. And the way that he did things as a map for how we might make our way through. But a third way, especially as we enter into uncharted territory where there are no maps and there is no GPS, we started to say, oh, is there a third way to relate to Tim's work, which is to relate to him as a compass?
01:34:44:17 - 01:35:07:08
Unknown
So the way that he thought about things, the way that he was grounded in Scripture and in the gospel, and in deep theological reflection to look at the way that Tim did these things and the way that he looked at culture and at cities and applying the gospel, that that really functions more like a compass that orients us towards the true North.
01:35:07:10 - 01:35:22:20
Unknown
But we are entering into uncharted territory here. And even if we know where true north is, part of the essence of the journey is we're going to take some wrong turns, but we know where true north is, so we know how to come back. Course correct. And we know how to kind of look for another path forward.
01:35:22:20 - 01:35:42:02
Unknown
Yeah. That those three categories I think have been helpful has been helpful analogy for us. Yeah. Tim, GPS Tim as map and Tim as compass. I don't know if you guys reflect on that. Like, what does that sparked for you maybe how does how have you related to Tim and his thought leadership in that way or.
01:35:42:04 - 01:36:20:12
Unknown
I don't know, just reflect on that. Yeah. Yeah yeah, yeah. I think from, from the beginning of our interactions, one of the things that was helpful was, how curious Tim was so in the times that I talked to him, I was really struck by, his memory. Yeah. And his punctuation and that this. Right. Most of our convos, you know, you you, you know, you see the guy, you hear him talk and it's like, oh, this.
01:36:20:12 - 01:36:39:18
Unknown
Great. So when you sit down with him, you know, my thought is like, all right. He's just, you know, can I boom boom boom, just drop gems. Lotsa periods and exclamation marks and but there was a lot of question marks, and a lot of things like, oh, like, help me understand this. And how do you do and how do you think about that?
01:36:39:18 - 01:37:00:14
Unknown
And, yeah, I mean, things are here. And whenever he would talk to me about things that he did or he would do, he would almost to a fault, say, but still, like, I just want you to know, I'm in Mahat. I'm here, and this is not that. And I don't know what it is to be there.
01:37:00:14 - 01:37:28:04
Unknown
And so in some ways, in almost every interaction that I had with Tim, he would make sure not to allow me to see him as a he's like, yeah, this is what I did. But. Right. Yeah. That's how the roads were back then, right? Yeah. The roads have like, changed. Right. This is a guy from 1989.
01:37:28:04 - 01:38:09:16
Unknown
Yeah. Manhattan. So don't take what I did is a step by step. Right? Or he's like, Matt, he's. He asked me about the terrain of where I was. So in the conflicts that I had, it's like he almost wouldn't even let me think about his contribution, at least for me, as anything other than your compass. Just trying to kind of help you get oriented to the possibility of the landscape and trying to give you what you need to move in landscapes that I'm not a part of, that I won't be a part of, and that I'll.
01:38:09:18 - 01:38:33:04
Unknown
Yeah, that I don't know how to move through. So. Yeah, that's good. When I, the first thing that comes to mind is your, in both of your reflections is that I think within an organization like city, the city and within a global network like city to city, there are likely we would likely find people who are oriented, Tim, in all of those ways.
01:38:33:05 - 01:38:53:15
Unknown
Right? So there will be people for whom they had never thought about the, you know, ministry in a city. They never thought about evangelism or apologetics in a certain kind of way. They never heard the gospel presented in this kind of way. And so for them, their own life personally has been kind of following that of his writing and his preaching and other things.
01:38:53:17 - 01:39:22:23
Unknown
And the the formation is so thoroughly from Tim and his work or from city of the city and his work. But often, Tim, and I think there are others of us, who had a lot of theological formation, a lot of, sort of shaping and other traditions or other things that come into Tim late. And I feel like for me personally, like the image of the compass is really helpful because I think I had I had read about apologetics.
01:39:23:01 - 01:39:52:13
Unknown
Tim didn't introduce me to apologetics. I was I had heard that before right. And I had had, been to seminary and taking courses in reformed theology. And so while Tim's presentation of the gospel was really compelling, it was not anything I had never heard before in my life. It was not brand new. And there were a handful of things like faith and work, mercy and justice, that had I'd seen the conversations, what I hadn't seen was someone having all of those conversations, right?
01:39:52:15 - 01:40:17:23
Unknown
And trying to, like, direct them toward ministry, which was really unusual. And who would kind of keep orienting, like, could route all of those things, not as various activities to keep you busy, but they're all they're all rooted in the gospel and kind of flow out of the gospel. Yeah. And so I think that for me, it was like it took parts that I had encountered or had begin, I had begun to assemble a map on my own right.
01:40:18:00 - 01:40:35:10
Unknown
And through reading other people or interacting with other things and dabbling in other traditions. And I think it was helpful then to like, I still feel like I kind of had a sense of the landscape, but I don't know if I had an idea like, you can go any direction from here. I don't know where to go. Yeah.
01:40:35:11 - 01:40:57:08
Unknown
And so I think I did kind of experience Tim's contribution as that. I said, all right, you could do worse than to just head north right toward like into the gospel and out of it into these various implications for ministry. And so I think often in our system that we've got people, our global network, we'll have people who orient differently and some who for whom.
01:40:57:08 - 01:41:22:05
Unknown
Tim, is the whole formation and some for whom. It's like kind of the finishing school that closed the loop on a few things. And I think that's, a really healthy kind of diversity to have in that system. Yeah. I mean, at some level, like I would say, my relationship with Tim's thought leadership and Tim would have been closest to GPS definitely early on, like in 2007 when I came in as a pastor, I was like 28, 29 years old.
01:41:22:07 - 01:41:37:23
Unknown
And so, you know, I came in there, I'm like, I don't know what, I don't know what did I mean? I had a lot of ministry experience in Korean-American churches, largely in the suburbs. But here it was a New York City and it was a more diverse crowd. I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing. So a lot of that early years was definitely GPS.
01:41:38:01 - 01:41:55:17
Unknown
And if anything, you know, if you're I've got my ongoing joke when I have to introduce myself, I always say, you know, Redeemer. There were only ever two preachers. There was Tim Keller and there was not Tim Keller. But hey, who's preaching today? Not Tim Keller, right? And so I was one of them, that Tim Keller was right.
01:41:55:17 - 01:42:16:12
Unknown
But in that context, it was like, man, you got a pretty sermons. And Tim has been like, how do you preach in a way that's not just like warmed up leftovers of Tim Keller? Right. So there was a real wrestling with that. And I think the GPS for me was really, really important in my own formation. But then at some point you got to be like, all right, how do I what am I adding here?
01:42:16:17 - 01:42:36:01
Unknown
What am I how am I owning this? How am I, you know. And so I think over the years I've been able to mature and grow in ways that where I'm like, okay, I think this is maybe more like a map and I'm still in Manhattan. And so there's lots of similarities where but as I go out into the world, I'm like, oh man, like, these cities are different.
01:42:36:03 - 01:42:56:11
Unknown
Oh yeah. And we've got leaders and man to enable us to be able to empower them to say, hey, Tim Keller didn't do reflection on Call and Paul, right? He didn't do reflection on the mirror. And that's why we need you. Right. And so there's something there that I think can really, enrich the way that we've been thinking about.
01:42:56:11 - 01:43:19:16
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think what I love about this metaphor, maybe as a way of summing up this conversation, is that it gives us a way to talk about how we move forward without him physically present and without his work developing to keep pace with changing culture, which he did over the course of his own writing and reflect that.
01:43:19:16 - 01:43:54:07
Unknown
Yeah. Because our goal is not to, like, go beyond him. Right? It's really to take him with us into new territory, right through this shared theological vision, DNA. And I think the language of kind of that, his, his prior work and the example of the previous 25 years as a sort of compass orienting the work right feels to me like a really meaningful way to, to validate and acknowledge that without that, we would be lost right in, in unfamiliar territory.
01:43:54:08 - 01:44:16:23
Unknown
Right. Now we're in unfamiliar territory with a sense of direction that we can be confident. Yeah. You know, is kind of is pointing us in the right way. Yeah. That's right. And I find that really encouraging. Yeah. That's right. And it reminds me to like, you know, we were just in Budapest together, and it was that the theme of their conference was Evolving City's Enduring Gospel.
01:44:17:01 - 01:44:35:11
Unknown
And I think to your point, that compass imagery kind of for me, captures a little bit of both of that, right? Where it's like there is something enduring that's going to route us. There is a true north that doesn't change and that it's going to be found in Scripture. Understanding the gospel. They're contextual variations on that. But there's a core heart that is unchanging.
01:44:35:13 - 01:44:55:00
Unknown
And yet cities are evolving. Contexts are always evolving. And so that to live in the dynamic tension between those two poles, I think, is exactly where we need to be heading. Yeah, it's good news.
01:44:55:02 - 01:45:17:02
Unknown
The city of the city podcast is a production of Redeemer City to City. It was recorded at the Atlanta Basement studio. It was edited by our resident Swiss Army knife, Braden Greg. For more information, you can visit us online at Redeemer City to City Economy Resources, you can look for us on Substack, where our publication is called City to City on Substack.
01:45:17:04 - 01:45:23:15
Unknown
We are a listener funded outfit, so if you'd like to make a donation, will receive it. We thank you so much for listening.