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The Disability And…Podcast gets right to the heart of some of the most pressing issues in arts, culture and beyond with a series of bold, provocative and insightful interviews with disabled artists, key industry figures and the odd legend. The Disability and…Podcast is currently monthly.
Ian Rattray 00:04
Welcome to the Disability And... podcast, bringing together thoughtful discussion and debate. This month, Disability Arts Online founding editor Colin Hambrook chats with writer and activist Will Reynolds about audiobooks, and the importance they have in his life.
Colin Hambrook 00:30
Welcome to the Disability And... podcast. I'm Colin Hambrook, the founding editor of Disability Arts Online. And I'm really delighted this month to have Will Reynolds, who's a DAO blogger and contributor, and he's with us. We're going to be talking about audiobooks. And Will! Great to have you here.
Will Reynolds 00:58
Thanks for having me.
Colin Hambrook 00:59
Say a little bit about yourself and your literature studies, your college days?
Will Reynolds 01:06
Well, I was sort of brought up on audiobooks. I'm really dyslexic and visually impaired. So reading, sort of didn't really kind of kick in till I was about 12 or 13 or so. But because of being lucky and stuff, I had access to a load of audiobooks. So in a weird sort of way, I was quite well read, by the time I actually learned to read, which is kind of an odd way of going about it. I then went to university, and did classics at Birmingham. So read a lot more, because that's basically kind of four different degrees in one history and English and philosophy and politics all in one. So yeah, lots of reading. All throughout this, audio books have been a kind of huge part of my life. I mean, without it, I would be reading one kind of book a year, properly.
And I think the last count, you know, I was reading, like 150, 200 books a year. So because of that, I've become very kind of into the audio side of things. I've done a bit of producing and a bit of kind of, like, audio stuff. And you know, I've worked in the old record shop now and again, and that sort of thing. So I would say that I know a little bit about the production side of things. And also because I've known some authors and some people that own book shops, I've kind of seen the production side of that from that angle as well. Which is interesting.
Colin Hambrook 02:54
Yeah, yeah. And how have audiobooks changed from when I used to read them as a teenager, to now—what are the, you know, the production values, and the range? How's that changed?
Will Reynolds 03:10
Audible is the thing that has completely kind of changed the landscape of audiobooks, because it means that a lot more audiobooks are being produced. I think it's sort of, in the early 2010s, it was only sort of, well under 5% of books that would end up being put on audiobook, and now it's considerably higher. There are studios that are specifically designed for audiobook recording, but it does mean that Audible has a massive monopoly on the business and it has made them so late audiobooks, so much cheaper, and therefore available, and you don't have to carry around a box full of CDs, which is nice. So that's the biggest changes, they've kind of moved from the physical product, in that you're going into a shop and you're paying 30-40 pounds for an audiobook that's over 12 CDs or something - to now, an audible credit's about four pounds on the premium deal, I think now and then, and you just download it onto your phone and you know, you're wandering around with 5-600 audiobooks on your mobile. I think that's the biggest thing. But that has led to a massive monopoly for one company which people like Brandon Sanderson, are trying to break at the moment. And people like Caoimhe McDonnell, who are doing indie recordings, and then selling them, selling the audio books, themselves, at cost basically.
Colin Hambrook 05:02
How do you think that audiobooks improve people's lives?
Will Reynolds 05:08
So. I think that it's kind of weird, I have this weird sort of philosophical thing about audiobooks, I think, because books are basically like, keepers of knowledge. And I think that it's only right that everyone should have access to that kind of knowledge and philosophy and kind of all of the things doesn't matter if you're reading some crappy, like, crime thriller, it's still the same thing of kind of, you're accessing this; you're tapping into the, like, this world that other people have also tapped into. And that's a kind of a community thing, but you're doing it by yourself. Because, you know, most people kind of read alone. And I think it---you know, if you look at it in terms of how the world is shaped, everyone having access to literature is really, really important because it actually changes how the world around us works and how you understand the world around you. And, and, and how you interact with people and stuff like that. I mean, speaking for myself, I would say most of my understanding of the world has come through reading. But I genuinely think that it does change your perspective on things. Certainly when the pandemic happened, the fact that I'd read a load of like, dystopian stuff, and that philosophical, sci-fi, Orwell, and Ray Bradbury, all those kind of people, that meant that I kind of went into the pandemic, kind of, not really - I'm not saying I knew what to do, I didn't at all - I still panicked as much as everyone else. But it did kind of give you that thing of kind of going, "Okay, right. Well, the books say this. So that's perspective, I suppose." But that was all through audiobooks. I'm lucky because, you know, I don't particularly like having, you know, I don't like Audible, particularly, but you got to admit that being able to wander around with 700 audiobooks on your phone is quite good, because you don't get bored. And you know, you can kind of go, Oh, what was that thing that I was thinking about? And then sort of go and tap into that. You can listen to an audiobook while you're stacking shelves in a supermarket at three in the morning. And you can listen to audiobooks while you're doing the school run, or whatever it may be, you know, it means that you can kind of always have that kind of escape into whatever world you want.
Colin Hambrook
Do you want to tell us a bit about some of your favourite authors? I know you wrote a dissertation on Flann O'Brien. When you were at uni.
Will Reynolds
There are definitely authors that kind of lend themselves to audiobooks. I would say that Flann O'Brien's kind of one of them. Because if you know, you kind of get the rhythm of the thing. I mean, that the Third Policeman, which is Flann O'Brien's probably the most famous book, which I've done a piece on for DAO, was done [narrated] by Jim Norton, who most people would know from his Bishop Brennan in Father Ted, but he, he gets into the rhythm of the thing.
And there are just certain people who have really great, kind of, audiobook voices. You know, that there just are people that are really great at it. Like, I'd say, David Suchet is really good. Martin Jarvis is really good, Timothy West, Anton Lesser, these sort of people. Because they just sort of get, the kind of, rhythm of the thing and and there are but there are certain authors who I think the audio medium is really good for, because, well, if you look at Joyce certainly, he's--the whole thing with Joyce's he's trying to kind of emulate Homer. And that was done in the oral tradition. So it's supposed to be spoken out loud anyway, so it's basically long-form poetry. And so then having it spoken out loud, kind of gives you that rhythm and that kind of flow to the thing. And I think that's really special because it's something that kind of, you can't sort of read a book aloud on a bus to yourself.
But you can stick headphones in and listen to an audiobook. And so you can kind of get swept up in this whole thing. And I think books like Trainspotting, have that same thing, you know, I think it kind of has a, like a kind of it gives it a sort of texture to the, to the sort of novel. And I think that's a really important thing. And, and it certainly for me, I remember things better if I hear them. So I'm much more likely to remember something that someone says to me, rather than you can write something down and say, I left you a note, and I'd be like, I don't remember that at all. But if you sort of say, Oh, well, that, you know, do you remember that conversation that we had two and a half years ago, at whatever time? I kind of go? Oh, yeah, I know exactly what you said. That's fine. Got that.
Colin Hambrook 11:11
There are say the, the another big advantage of Audible is that you can play a sample.
Will Reynolds 11:19
Yeah.
Colin Hambrook 11:19
So you, you can hear the voice and decide, from a 10-minute sample, whether whether or not you like the sound of the reader.
Will Reynolds 11:30
Yeah, yeah.
Colin Hambrook 11:31
And, often, I'll turn off from buying a book simply on who...
Will Reynolds 11:39
…who's reading it? Yeah, I think that's, that's a really big thing that is definitely becoming more of a thing now. Because back in the day, I think there was kind of, if something was an audiobook, you'd kind of go, Well, that's the only audiobook of that, that there is, therefore that's the only way I'm going to be able to read it. So you just kind of went with it. And you kind of, you end up with some really not great narration and some really bad, like, audio quality. And I think that's kind of changed now just because of the amount of publishers that are going into audiobooks as a tie-in that, uh, it's just an automatic tie-in now, kind of thing. I mean, the big thing that's changed there, as well, is that a lot of publishers now released the audiobook at the same point as they released the hardback, which for years wasn't the case, it would be months, if not years, after the book came out that you'd get an audiobook. And also, the price of the audio book would be, kind of, prohibitively expensive. I remember, the one that really, really hit me was the fifth Harry Potter, it came out. And so the book came out. And it was kind of the price of an ordinary hardback, sort of, like, I think it was like 12 pounds when it came out - which shows how long ago it came out. But then the audiobook didn't come out for a year. And when it came out, it was 42 pounds. And it was 50 CDs. So you kind of had to carry it around, in a kind of, that was kind of just something that kind of really kind of illustrated to me how that kind of works.
But I do completely agree with you about how much a narrator can really kind of colour a book. Because there are certain--certain audiobooks is it's getting increasing-- like it's increasingly rare that this happens, but there are times where you'll have narrators, not pronounce things right, and it just takes you out the story, or they have a kind of, they go with the kind of character-voice choice that is kind of odd and sort of brings you out of the book and that sort of thing. I think certainly for things like, well as I did a classics degree, I've kind of done a lot of the Librivox narrations there that are in the public domain because I was a student and they were there. But it meant that there were a lot of, kind of, people not knowing how to pronounce ancient Greek names, which is kind of fine in the everyday. But then I kind of think, well, if you're being paid to read a book, don't you just ask someone I don't know, like, it's one of those things but that's a kind of weird gripe that is a, it's an odd thing to moan about. And it's a thing that you kind of can't moan about to most people, because they kind of don't get it. Which is nice about this because I can kind of go or you know that thing that only you only really find annoying if you're really into audiobooks. And yeah, it's so nice to have that sort of safe space.
Colin Hambrook 15:25
I I grew up on BBC Radio for dramas, drama productions, and I--
Will Reynolds 15:36
Oh, god, I love them!
Colin Hambrook 15:38
I wanted to ask you a bit about audiobooks in drama production, and some of your background and connections?
Will Reynolds 15:52
Okay, so out of interest. What, were are you as obsessed as I was with the, do you remember the Sherlock Holmes ones that Clive Merrison and Michael Williams did in the 80s? It was sort of late 80s, early 90s.
Colin Hambrook 16:08
Yeah, yeah, I do, vaguely.
Will Reynolds 16:10
All of the Sherlock Holmeses. They were so good! [exhales]. Ah! yeah. It's interesting, kind of with things like that. The you know how people kind of go, oh, yeah, well, "Basil Rathbone was my Sherlock Holmes," or whatever, or "I really liked Benedict Cumberbatch," for the kind of, younger people. But yeah, Clive Merrison was very much my, my Holmes. Yeah, it's. So I was, I was really lucky because BBC Audiobooks is based in the West Country, which is where I'm from the a lot of the recording studios are based in Bath, which is where I live. And basically, as a kid, my dad was friends with the guy who was Head of BBC Children's Audiobooks. So, all the all the sorts of tapes and CDs that kind of had been damaged in transit, or something, or had a little bit of a blip on them, would often find their way to my bedroom, essentially [laughs].
And it meant that I got all of these amazing stories for free, which is great. I mean, honestly, without that, I don't think you know, I wouldn't have been able to afford it. Because audiobooks are expensive, but they are amazing--those BBC dramas are really, really great. And I think the way that they [the BBC] are able to kind of dramatise these great novels, as well, is, it's an amazing thing. And I think they get some incredible actors involved as well. You know, if you think about the kind of that sort of like, wide range of things that they've done, I mean, you know, so, well, Sherlock Holmes, like I was saying, but loads of, loads of different dramatisations of Treasure Island ended up in my house---but that's because I'm, was weirdly obsessed with pirates as a kid.
And, you know, but, you know, they did, all the, all the kind of great Russian literature, a lot of Dickens, which is great. Because it makes a certainly kind of Tolstoy much easier to follow, when it's sort of actually a kind of, a cast of people. Because, I mean, I don't know if you've tried to read that [Tolstoy]. I mean, I find it really difficult to kind of follow anyway, because everyone has the same name. It seems Russian literature is particularly dense. And so full cast makes it much easier to, uh [follow the story]... Yeah, it definitely is a way of getting into it. It does make it a hell of a lot easier, because, wow, it's dense, but those dramatisations are amazing, and I think that kind of shows the kind of skill in itself.
And I think it's interesting because, I mean, you are kind of, you're dealing with sort of script writing and dramatisation and that has really led me into a kind of a love of theatre and film and stuff like that. I find it interesting that you kind of go into other areas of script-writing, particularly, and then also audio production. You know, like I've helped produce a couple of like, very, very, very bad albums for friends and stuff and that, you know, it does it just it's interesting how that all kind of spans out into different areas of life. And really all it. It sort of stemmed from my dad coming home with a massive box of cassettes when I was about five. I have a sort of weirdly encyclopedic knowledge for who actually dramatised the things: like I know that Bert Coules was head of BBC dramatisations, in the 80s, and the 90s, which I think was the kind of prime BBC dramatisations. In my opinion. I, you know, like, I'm not saying that they're terrible now [laugh] but like, he really knew his way around a script. He did a lot of the, he did The 39 Steps and All the old---the Dickens or Trollope, as well. And a really, really good version of The Tempest, which had I think it was, I think it was Ian McKellen was Prospero, which was great. Which I don't know when it actually went out on Radio Four, but I had on tape, and it was, it was great.
Colin Hambrook 21:44
More and more of those, those old productions, finding their way onto audible, or other other audiobook libraries and services that you recommend, you talked earlier about Caoimhe. And some of the authors who are kind of creating audiobooks independently.
Will Reynolds 22:05
The one that I think is amazing, and I genuinely don't understand how most people don't know about it is Libby, which is basically hooked up to the like--to your local library. So what you do is if you have a library card for anywhere in the UK, US and Canada, I think. Hm. Maybe some other places, but they are the three that I know definitely works. And you then put your sort of Library ID/serial number thing into the Libby app, and it gives you all of the audiobooks on the library system. And basically, local libraries at the moment are digitising all of their audiobooks. And so that means that although the choice of audiobooks in your local library might be rubbish, which I'm not gonna lie in Bath Library, they're really not...there's not a wide range of stuff. But then you get the entire---you know, you get every audio book that's been digitised on the library system in Britain. And it's free. So how people aren't using that, I don't know. I mean, that, to me, is amazing. And I think it's things like that, and kind of people getting the word out about that, that will really, really help.
Colin Hambrook 28:58
I think there's something about hearing an author reading their own work.
Will Reynolds 29:08
Yeah, definitely. It's got a---I love I've just really listened to Neverwhere, actually. Just completely coincidentally, I finished that, kind of, a couple of days ago, or something, and his narration is great. And he really, I think there is something about the kind of authors reading their own work, that you just kind of know that you're getting the best that you can get, really.
Colin Hambrook 30:07
I listened to Barbara Kingsolver reading The Lacuna recently. And that she has a superb, superb voice.
Will Reynolds 30:42
I think that there are certain books that just have that kind of lyricism to them, and they kind of and that kind of, you know, and that being recorded is really important. Because, you know, like, you get that kind of weird, sort of, you're taken away by the kind of, well, lyricism of the thing, and then you kind of realise sort of that at the same time, you're getting this really, really powerful message as well. And I think she's definitely one of them, I think. Have you read, or listened to...The Underground Railroad? That's yeah, that I think has a similar kind of thing to it. And I have this recording of Langston Hughes reading some of his poetry, which is amazing. I think poetry is really special on audiobooks. And that is where, like, authors reading their own stuff is really amazing. I have this kind of like, really, really bad. Sort of bootleg copy of Langston Hughes doing some stuff. From way, way back. I don't really know how I got it. I've got it on a cassette tape. And it's really special. I think you'll agree poetry is meant to be read out loud. And I think it kind of gives a... it's, you know, it's an important thing to have.
Colin Hambrook 32:21
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I'll definitely look out for Libby, on the local library network. Yeah.
Will Reynolds 32:34
Yeah. And that there are there are sort of a number of those things, it's difficult to kind of recommend stuff, because it often also changes where you are like in terms of, I know that there are other things that are run by local authorities, but they're sort of these different apps, depending on where you are, like, I mean, so there's one that they use here, but I know that these are different one in London, and I know that the British Library have a subscription thing.
Colin Hambrook 34:01
That's really, really fascinating. Thank you. I'll bring the podcast to a close now, but I, I've really enjoyed hearing you talk about some of the authors that have inspired you and, and you've given us lots of pointers, as to...
Will Reynolds 34:24
I'm glad, you know...
Colin Hambrook 34:30
Audio as an access tool is really, really important.
Will Reynolds 34:37
I think so, yeah. Because I think yeah, well, everyone should have access to literature and books just generally. Thank you very much.
Colin Hambrook 35:26
Yeah, look forward to further conversations about literature with you and and, and indeed further of your kind of reviews on disability representation within, within literature on Disability Arts Online.
Ian Rattray 35:47
Thank you for listening. We do hope you've enjoyed this episode of Disability And...
Please join us next month when Paul Wilshaw, Assistant Producer of Mind the Gap, chats with Melissa Conyers and Matthew Reason about the collaboration between Mind The Gap and York St. John's University and how they're making courses accessible to the disabled.