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Welcome to The Culture Code podcast. On this podcast, you’ll learn how to grow, shape, and sustain a high-performance culture with the CEO of LEADx, Kevin Kruse. From designing and delivering highly effective leadership development programs, to measuring and improving the employee experience, you will understand what it takes to cultivate a thriving company culture. Through interviews with Chief People Officers, deep dives into key topics, and recordings of our invite-only community sessions, we bring you cutting-edge, data-backed insights from the most desirable companies to work for in the world.
Kruse: Hello, everyone. I'm Kevin Kruse, and welcome back to Culture Code. I am very excited today because we don't just have one; we have two great guests. We have ForgeRock CEO, Fran Rosch, and Chief People Officer, Tschudy Smith. Fran Rosch, welcome. And where are you coming from today?
Rosch: Well, thank you, Kevin. Thank you so much for having us. We are both in San Francisco, California.
Kruse: Love it. I'm usually in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, but I'm spending the month in San Jose. I'm so jealous of the weather you've been experiencing. You know, it's just been beautiful here, so glad to be in your backyard.
Rosch: We're glad to have you here. Philly's a great town as well. I went to Lehigh University. There you go, far away from Philly, and I have some nephews there. It's a great town.
Kruse: Fantastic. So let's just start at a high level. Obviously, within info security, everybody knows ForgeRock. For those who might not be familiar with [your company], how big is your organization and in plain language, what do you do?
Rosch: Sure. So we're a digital identity company. We work with some of the largest enterprises in the world to create identity experiences that are simple, easy, and frictionless, but also secure, safe, and private. Companies like the BBC, Domino's Pizza, Geico - some of these really large organizations. When you log in, whether you're an employee, a customer, or a business partner, that whole login and identity experience, we create software that powers that for some of the largest organizations in the world. In terms of size, we've got about 1,300 enterprise customers. We've got over 1,000 employees. We're a very globally distributed company. And we've got about $250 million in revenue. So growing pretty quickly. It's an exciting time to be in digital identity and a very exciting time to be at ForgeRock.
Kruse: Love it, love it. How would you describe your company culture in just a few words?
Rosch: Well, then, maybe I'll answer that first and then you can add, Tschudy you've been such a driver of our culture as our Chief People Officer. But you know, we've actually kind of gotten together a group of ForgeRockers to help us define that culture, and we have these pillars that we use. And some of them that resonate, you know, most to me, Kevin, is this proactive culture about challenging the status quo. We're always looking to change and improve. We're always looking to raise the bar, right? To look at how we perform and what we can do to continue to get better. So for me, when I think of ForgeRock's culture, first of all, I think it's critically important, and we've gone through the work of making sure that our employees are all aligned with it. We hire and recruit talent that agrees with it. But it's about getting better every single day. So that's what the culture resonates with me. But I'm sure Tschudy will say much better.
Smith: Yeah, no, that's well said. A couple of things I would add to the culture because, Kevin, you're right. I think one of the things when you get and embrace your culture, it can be a secret sauce. It can be the thing others are trying to replicate. But it's really hard to do because it's how you kind of operate and how you exist as a company. A couple of additional things to what Fran said: first is, we are a global company, but we're not just global in the way that we have offices in different places. But we can operate globally. We appreciate different cultures, different points of view, perspectives, where the roots are of this company all the way to the places and talent we've hired around the globe. But we can operate effectively in a global company. I think that's really important. The other two things that I would call out are trust. Trust is really important - building safety and trust on teams, building safety and trust with a leader, and doing what you say and saying what you do. And I would argue that one of our pillars about trust is really practiced day in and day out. The last thing I'd say is that winning is important. It is so important, and winning for our customers is paramount. It's what helps us continue to exist. But the other thing that we think about is winning with our employees, our partners, and also our communities. We want to leave this place better than how we found it. And I think when you look around at the things that people do with their discretionary time or means, it's giving back. And I think that also starts to define a company's culture when you can endorse, reinforce, and support it. I would say those few things about our culture.
Kruse: Very, very powerful the way you describe it. What are some of the ways you foster or sustain this culture? Any unique rituals or traditions related to your culture?
Rosch: Let me kind of start by telling you a little story about how we got here. So I joined the company 5 years ago, and prior to joining it, it was a much smaller company. And it actually kind of had a rebellious, rock and roll attitude as a company, which is great. We all love that kind of rebel challenging the status quo, which we still carry today. But there was also this feeling in the company that they didn't want any big company bureaucracy. And so when I came in, I had a lot of big company background. And I said, "We are going to spend some time actually defining our culture, defining our values." And like you said, "What's important to us? Now, you want to treat each other?" There were people who said, "No, don't do that. That's big company stuff. You're just gonna put posters on the wall that no one ever looks at." And I said, "No, it's not like that. You have to define these things, because if you don't, how would you know? How will new people who join the company, and we're growing like crazy, know? How will they crack the code? Are they just supposed to learn?" So we said, "We are going to take the steps to define it, and then we're going to ingrain it in everything we do. It's not just going to be posters on the wall." So, and when we defined both our values and our cultural pillars, like many other important things, it was very much a bottoms-up process. It wasn't me saying, "This is our culture." It was like, "What do you guys value? Honoring the past, but knowing that we're also changing radically. And how do we change the future?" So, that's a lot of how we got there, and why I think we have a broad embrace of all our values and our cultural pillars, because that's how they were developed. And maybe Tschudy can then finish the second part of your question, which was, "How do we ingrain them? How do we make sure? How do we use those values and cultural pillars every day?"
Smith: Yes, and that's a great way to talk about it, Fran, from the roots of the company to where we've gotten today. And you're right that we can put those on a poster, you know, write them on the wall. But where do they show up in our practices, in our policies, and some of our programs? Those reinforce your culture and your values. I'll give you a couple of examples of some things that we've shifted and aligned. One is recognition. Look, I think recognition is the currency of creating a culture. I think it's what drives behavior. I think it reinforces what you want more of. And what we did is we took what used to be sort of a top-down, nomination-based program and we turned it upside down. What we did is we took all the barriers off of recognition, put points and rewards into the hands of all of our ForgeRockers, and allowed them to recognize individuals, teams of individuals, leaders, people who impacted them. As they put in that recognition, they had an opportunity to highlight which cultural pillar that aligned with. So you could understand, "Oh my gosh, look at that sales development team, that's support, saying 'Thank you' to the renewals organization." Why? Because you helped us win this deal, and you have this, and it's shared across our company Slack channel. Not only did this give the freedom to every employee to recognize one another, but we also added the ability to give a high five. We have had over 18,000 moments of recognition, and we have had over 71,000 high fives. So, even in this virtual world, when I can't necessarily stop by your office and say, "Wow! I saw that note, good job," just to see the community saying, "This mattered. I see you. It's important," and it reinforces because it's linked to our cultural pillars. What they did to make a difference. So that's one example of how we're doing it.
I'll give just one more, because I think it's important. When I talked about this notion of trust, what we also did is we changed our listening strategy a little bit. Instead of just having the annual company survey, we started doing quarterly pulse surveys. So we let managers pulse their employees to get their feedback on a small set of questions. They get to debrief with our team and then agree as a team on what to do. I'll tell you how this comes into play. I had a leader who was based in Bristol, one of our really wonderful offices at ForgeRock, rich in culture and heritage, a leader who had expanded their role and responsibilities. But they had done it during Covid. They were feeling really disconnected from their team. They could sense engagement was waning. They were having a little bit harder time managing their performance. And they knew cross-functionally, they weren't always showing up well. So by instituting the pulse that created a safe environment, they stated, "What do we do? Well, as a team, what can we do better?" In addition to that, encouraging managers to check in more frequently. So we gave them an architecture to have a conversation not annually, but at least quarterly. And he came back and said, his engagement scores are up. He's got clear measures of performance, and the team's productivity is higher. And guess what? That manager also feels better about the job they're doing for their team. That's kind of the way we're bringing our culture to life.
Kruse: So much great stuff there. Everything from honoring the past and yet changing for the future is a great way to guide an organization through change management. 70% of engagement is correlated to the manager, and front-line managers touch more employees than any other leadership group. What are some of the ways you develop your front-line managers?
Rosch: Yeah, I couldn't agree more with you, right? And no matter how much I communicate something, I know that there's a filter there. So what we've done is we really make sure that we cascade all of that through. So people do hear it from their direct managers. So I have a great ForgeRock leadership team. And I stay in lockstep with them so that what I say, they can also say. And, of course, what they say, I say great, you know. That's about a group of 10 of us. We also then formed our leadership circle. So our leadership circle is then VP and above at the company. And it's a lot of those frontline managers who are leading those big teams. So we have separate communication. Whenever there's a big company announcement or strategy session, we always meet with the leadership circle first, kind of have a dedicated conversation with them, so that they can hear directly from me, directly from the leaders, and then they're prepared and armed to talk to their individual teams. We bring that leadership circle together once a year, and we have a three-day retreat. And we spend a lot of time getting to know each other better, aligning, and so really make sure that those leaders, right, who are the ones who really people listen to, are enabled with the most information. And then Tschudy and her team do a lot of other efforts around leadership and managerial development that she can expand on a little more.
Smith: Yeah, and I 100% subscribe to that belief that your manager drives 70% of your engagement. I absolutely ascribe to that. That's why our people leaders have been at the center of our people strategy for over 2 years now. And we, I think, Kevin, the other place that we've taken is we've even pushed it to kind of what we call people-centric leadership, which I think is about authenticity. It's the ability to be empathetic. It's the ability to be an adaptive leader, and also, by the way, get results, absolutely manage performance and get results. A couple of the ways we've done it. In developing these, we brought in Dr. Mark Brackett, who talks about emotional intelligence. How do I tend to the emotions and reactions of my team? Not that I'm there to be the therapist by any means, but just understanding and realizing who the people are, getting to know them, what matters to you, what motivates you, where are you at your best, how can you receive feedback, but really helping them to teach those skills. And then Fran talked about the leadership circle being slightly ahead and making sure that they are brought into sort of strategic decisions, or we talked to them so that they can then communicate the messages. But the other thing that we've done is anticipating change or things that are coming. We brought in Nathan Furr recently to talk about the upside of uncertainty, and knowing that this Tamo Bravo acquisition of ForgeRock was underway, wanting them to be poised to manage and lead through that change. That's always, to me, really timely. You can build great year-long learning development programs. But sometimes you get handed something new and you want to be able to react in the moment. And the final thing I'd say, just a little bit back to that listening strategy as an example, it's so important to empower your managers. So when I can't say to them, "This is your team's results," I can do something about that. I don't need to wait for Fran, who then waits for my next leader, and waits for my next leader. And when they can feel empowered in their roles, they can then see their impact. So we look at lots of things that we do to more and more empower managers not only on what they know, but what they can do for and with their teams.
Kruse: Let me ask you, related to culture, are there any special initiatives or results you’re most proud of?
Rosch: There's one for me, for sure. Every year we gather at our company conference together. A lot of it involves sales, marketing, and product leaders, you know. So it's hundreds of people, but we also broadcast part of it live to the rest of the company. Especially with Covid, we've become accustomed to virtual and now hybrid events. As part of that event, where most of the company or a lot of the company is in person, we hold an award ceremony. We call it the Frosters – ForgeRock Oscars – and give out these little gold statues. It is the most culture-reinforcing event of the year in my opinion. Each category is tied to our values and cultural pillars, and nominees are selected by peers. We run it like the Oscars – everyone dresses up in tuxedos and gowns, we have a great stage, and when you announce the winners, the audience goes crazy. People sometimes get emotional, crying tears of joy, because they've been "Frosted," and they proudly display their awards. It's an incredible experience for me, and it's my favorite day of the year to see the living embodiment of success tied to our values and culture, all while having a lot of fun giving out the Frosters.
Kruse: I love it. And not only is it fun and great for recognition, but something Tschudy said was that people will do more of what gets recognized. So what better way than to tie these things to what we want more of, and celebrate and have fun along the way. Tschudy, do you have anything to add?
Smith: Yeah, I'll tell you about one initiative that I'm really proud of, which has gained a lot of attention both internally and externally. When Fran talked about our leadership circle, this is our top executives, about 50 individuals from across the company that we bring together regularly. Well, last year we had the opportunity to bring them together in person for the first time. This session had a strategic focus with a people change aspect. Just before that event, we had launched our cultural pillars, which were developed by ForgeRockers across the globe. We know that culture, if not lived by the leaders, isn't truly believed. So just a month after launching our cultural pillars, we brought our leadership circle together in person. The price of entry was that every attendee had to produce a 1-minute video about one of the cultural pillars that meant the most to them. These videos were creative, funny, heartfelt, and showcased their passions or skills. We didn't know that one of our leaders played the guitar until then. Throughout the leadership circle, we played these videos during breaks. They brought family into it, showcased their passions, and used humor. Some leaders had impressive digital skills. It was a wonderful way to reinforce our culture, and for the leaders to share in their own words what the cultural pillars meant to them. Then, we started playing these videos at the end of each of our all-hands meetings. For a minute or so, the entire company would see a leader saying, "This is what 'Winning Together' means to me," or "This is how I see 'Challenging the Status Quo.'" It added a touch of fun and heartfelt authenticity while reinforcing our culture.
Kruse: I want everyone to immediately adopt that idea. I mean, it doesn't matter how big or small your company is, like. What book would you recommend that your colleagues read? (or podcast, video, etc.)
Rosch: I'm going to skip a book and we'll go to a TV show. "Undercover Boss" and it's about a restaurant transformation. But it is the most business-oriented show that I've seen in years. If you really break away the great entertainment value, it is about building teams. It's about setting a vision. It's about developing people. It is about developing a strategy that everyone agrees with. And for those of you who see me, you know that there are some employees that are really resistant to change and want to stay the same way. We have other people on the other end of the spectrum who are like, if we don't change small, we're dead. And how that leader brings those team members together to set a vision and to execute on it, it is a great business book. And you know, because every business has tough times, it's not always up to the right, and how they deal with adversity. They use a lot of rough language, but we try not to use as much of that here for Dropbox. But every company faces adversity, and how you plow through it, so please go watch "Undercover Boss," love it for the entertainment, but keep an eye on the business value.
Smith: That's a great one. It is a great show. I'm watching as well. So I'm going to shift it up a little bit, too. And I'm just going to say in the genre of podcasts that I think are really good is true crime. And you might say, well, for some people it's just a passion or interest, and I do. But what I love about true crime is that it's really interesting. I think it really encourages you to look at things from multiple angles. I think it really forces you to let go of your inherent biases or the way you believe things are. You're convinced that something is one thing, and I think it pushes you to be more curious. I think it pushes you to stand in other people's shoes to really understand what it might be. And I think it hones in on your critical thinking skills. And for me, I'd say, if you've got any time, just listen to one or two true crime podcasts. Of course, "Serial" brought it all into popularity. But they're really quite fun.
Kruse: I'm showing my age and nerdiness. My all-time favorite classic movie is "Citizen Kane." What skill or behavior do you wish your employees did more of?
Rosch: You know, I guess for me, it's the power of team and collaboration. Just being vulnerable, asking for help, asking to help others. Just that power of collaboration and teamwork, I think, is something that we do great here at ForgeRock, and I'm so proud of. But more and more of that type of thing is, I think, it'll really drive us forward.
Smith: And it's funny, Fran almost took the words straight out of my mouth, which is vulnerability. I think he's right. That orientation back to the power of teams and that individuals being vulnerable, turning that into trust, and that turning into psychological safety because it does, it creates that ability, like Fran said, to ask for help, to offer help, to be in a place where maybe things are a little opaque, but you're willing to take the hill. You've got a lot of will, and you will indeed take the hill. I think trust, authenticity, empathy, and vulnerability are really, really great characteristics, and they can lead to really wonderful things for individuals and teams.
Kruse: Final question, what excites you the most about your company right now?
Rosch: I think that we're at the cusp of radical changes in the digital identity experience. And I don't know about you, Kevin, but I have hundreds of different usernames and passwords. I have hundreds of different identities for all kinds of websites: across banking, shopping, healthcare, government services. It just goes on and on. And I think that our industry, and ForgeRock has been a big leader in this, is on the cusp of creating a world where you will never have to log in again. Where you can just be recognized and have a frictionless experience, and get rid of usernames and passwords, and get rid of multiple identities without compromising on safety and security and privacy, because there are better, more intelligent ways to recognize you than a username and password that's been around for 61 years. So I think, you know, ForgeRock has been really leading this technology, and I'm really excited to see radical improvement in the user experience while also driving so much better security and privacy in our digital world.
Smith: That's a hard one to top. I think that, and I would just reinforce that allowing people to simply and safely access the connected world is so powerful. And we're on another chapter. And I think that chapter is going to be amazing, thinking about the harmonization of culture and values and how you really go back to make an even more significant statement in this digital identity world is going to be ours for the taking.
Kruse: I always tell our listeners that they can often identify strong cultures because companies will come up with a unique name for each other, and I heard "Forge Rockers" come out as a descriptor. So I just want to thank both of you, obviously awesome Forge Rockers, for all that you've done in the space, for changing people's lives by creating a great place to work. And I want to thank you for sharing some of your wisdom with us today.
Rosch: Thank you, Kevin. It was a really great conversation.
Smith: Thank you, Kevin.