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A Mayo Clinic podcast for laboratory professionals, physicians, and students, hosted by Justin Kreuter, M.D., assistant professor of laboratory medicine and pathology at Mayo Clinic, featuring educational topics and insightful takeaways to apply in your practice.
- This is Lab Medicine
Rounds, a curated podcast
for physicians, laboratory
professionals and students.
I'm your host, Justin Kreuter,
a transfusion medicine pathologist
and assistant professor
of Laboratory Medicine
and Pathology at Mayo Clinic.
Today we're rounding with Mark Brown,
operations administrator
for the Department
of Laboratory Medicine and
Pathology at Mayo Clinic. To
talk about the significance
of collaborating
with administrators.
This is an awesome topic,
and Mark, I'm grateful that you're here
to unpack this with us. Yeah,
- Really good to be here, Dr.
Kreuter. Thanks for the invite.
- So, you know, we've got,
just highlighting our audience,
we have, you know, physicians,
laboratory professionals and students.
Certainly I think that there's
gonna be administrators
that are kind of working
with each of those groups.
Maybe even in some cases people may not
necessarily be aware of that.
But I'm kind of curious
from your perspective,
why is it important for pathologists,
laboratory medicine colleagues
to understand how to work
with administrators?
- That's a great question.
In healthcare, healthcare
is a complex field.
We know that it takes a lot of individuals
to successfully care for the patient.
And there are individuals who
touch the patient who care
for the patient every day at the bedside.
And then there are a host of
individuals who support those
who provide the care at the bedside.
One group of individuals who does
that is the administrators.
And the role of administration
takes different forms
and different institutions of course.
But largely what the
administrator is responsible
for is the overall
functioning of the practice.
That could be everything
from budgeting to staffing,
to ensuring that the care
teams have the supplies
they they need.
It could be ensuring that
we have the appropriate
access for our patients.
It could be ensuring that
we have the appropriate
equipment that we have.
So the administrator works
and really their responsibility
is to collaborate in tandem
with care providers everywhere
from physicians to nurses,
technologists, supply
chain leaders, others,
really across the entire practice
to ensure that ultimately
the patient gets what they
need day in and day out.
Whether it's in front of the patient
or ways that we help care for
the patient behind the scenes.
And so, I think, I'm biased of course,
but I think the role of administrator is,
is pretty important in
the healthcare field
and administrators like
nothing better than
to work really closely with
their physician colleagues.
Administrators actually get a
lot of value in visiting with,
working, with collaborating,
with strategizing,
with their physician partners.
And so I really appreciate that you,
you've risen this topic forward.
It's pretty important, we think
in, in the healthcare field.
- Yeah, I do too. 'cause I mean,
I've, I've been in a couple
of different places
and, you know, I've seen
some different examples and,
and maybe, you know,
certainly examples where it's,
it's going very well, but also
times where it's struggled
and times where it's struggling.
It, it almost gets kind
of portrayed as kind of,
you know, seeing maybe the
administrator as a, a barrier
to getting something that I
guess somebody is thinking
medically is important.
And so there's kind of an
an otherness to this, right?
Rather than this collaboration
we're talking about.
And that, that has me
reflecting on this topic
that our conversation today is
kind of like the opportunity
to highlight this, you know, another way
that we can think about
interprofessional collaboration just
as pathologists, laboratory
professionals may collaborate
with anesthesiologists or
surgeons at times for projects.
Same thing with administrators.
And so in that light, I guess
view it from this lens of,
you know, this
interprofessional collaboration.
Sometimes it seems like
administrators might
be speaking a different language.
I know you and I have
talked to, to somewhat about
how the training is similar and different,
but what are a few key points?
Do you think our audience
really would be helpful for them
to understand administrators so
that hopefully they can understand
how they might collaborate with them?
- That is a fascinating
question, Dr. Kreuter.
I will try to explain as best
I can from the vantage point
that I come from, after my many years
of working in administration,
administrators are trained
to look at things holistically
and evolving multiple individuals
at the table, whatever
that table is or whatever
the decision table is.
In other words, administrators
are trained to have
finance folks at the table,
human resources folks,
supply chain leaders, marketing leaders,
public affairs leaders, nursing leaders.
The list can go on and on.
And it depends on the topic
that's being discussed.
Clinicians often are trained
in a little bit different
light, which is physicians
get trained to care
for the patient, they're
ultimately responsible for
that patient care, whatever specialty
that physician ends up choosing,
whether they touch the patient directly
or they support those who are
touching the patient directly.
And so there, there's a
little bit of a dynamic there
between how a physician is trained,
where the physician is trained
to have the answer, doctor,
we need some, we need the answer.
What is the answer? And physicians are
trained to, to offer that.
Administrators are trained to say,
we have a complex issue here,
it does not have an easy answer.
Why don't we gather the
right people around the table
and wrestle with the
decision together to ensure
that everybody's voice is heard.
That could be frustrating
sometimes I've learned
to physicians who just
want to make the decision,
and there are multiple variables just
as a clinician thinks about
as they care for a patient.
Okay, it could be this, it
could be that, you know,
differential diagnosis, right?
Well, let's think about
this, let's think about that.
Administrators do that.
But on the business side,
they think about, oh,
we have this difficult
decision we have to make.
How does that play into the budget?
Do we have the staff
to be able to do that?
Do we have the equipment
to be able to do that?
Are there policies, procedures,
federal laws, state laws,
et cetera that we need to think about
before we proceed with a
particular course of action?
So when it works really
well, it's great when,
when everybody recognizes
around the table that the roles
that are being played are by professionals
who have the best interest in mind.
And when it doesn't work
well, folks do get irritated
takes too long, why don't
you just let me do it?
Well, we want to support the physician,
we want the patient care to happen.
We want the staff to have what they need.
And it's not always as black
and white as we'd always like it to be.
- Wow. I love how you set up that.
'cause I, this really resonates with me.
I can appreciate this idea
of, you know, it it is,
you're exactly right.
Physicians are often trained
to, what's the diagnosis?
How are we gonna treat this?
What are we gonna say for
prognosis? What's the answer?
What's the answer? What's the answer?
That kind of, I guess
one might say like a bias
to action, right?
And as you're saying an administrator,
you're really looking at
it from the perspective.
And, and I like how you're
bringing up this idea of,
you know, holistically,
what are all these different components?
'cause you know, I went to medical school,
I did not necessarily
go to like law school and,
and finance school and Right.
Like you're saying,
you're bringing a lot more
so I can understand why this sort of just
by default there might be a misperception
between the fields.
- Sure. - So I'm curious,
you know, you've had a number
of experiences
and have worked in a number
of, of different settings.
I'm kind of curious from
those examples, from our,
for our audience to hear,
you know, what are ways
that you have seen physicians
who really are able
to optimize their relationship
with administration?
What are those habits or practices
or ways to approach things?
- Thank you for that question. Physicians.
So I would say this administrators know
how talented physicians are.
They know how much stress
the physicians are under.
They know the pressure that
is applied to physicians.
It may not seem like that sometimes,
but believe me, the
administrators know the stresses
that are there on the physicians.
Our goal, while it might not
seem like that in a moment,
our goal is to support the
physician and their care team.
Ultimately, our job is
to try to make it easier
for the physician and for the
care team so they don't have
to worry about those other things.
We want the physicians to
worry about the patient,
whoever that patient is, right?
If we're, whether we're
right in front of the patient
or again, we're supporting
those who are right in front
of the patient, we want the
physicians, the care teams
to focus on patient care will take
care of the business side.
The physicians who understand that
and realize that the administrators
want nothing more than
to be in partnership with the physician,
are the ones I've seen be most successful
and get things done more quickly
and more efficiently than others.
When there is a healthy
respect at the table,
when the administrator
knows the knowledge base
that the physician has, the experience
that the physician has, and conversely,
when the physician knows that
the administrator's also been
around the block a few times
when they can learn about each
other, understand each other's nuances
and idiosyncrasies, that's where
the efficiency takes place.
I think about one of the
physician leaders I work directly
with that I support, and I know
that he can do his job more
efficiently if I take things off
of his plate for him
so that he can focus on
that patient who's right in front of him.
That's my goal. I also think
about it from the total
practice standpoint in my
institution, I want to ensure
that our institution is successful,
that we are living the
mission and the vision
and the values that we
have in our institution.
It's one of the administrator's
core responsibilities
to ensure that takes place.
That job becomes a lot easier
when the physician is on board
working hand in hand
with the administrator.
- What do you, I can
imagine maybe some, some
of our audience there, there
are a few years into practice
or like me, maybe they're,
they got some grays
gray hairs filling in and,
and maybe they didn't
get off to a good start
with their administrator, right?
But they've developed a history there
and maybe they're hearing this podcast
and understanding that hey, administrators
have similar values
and maybe now they're understanding
a little bit different
on what their job is, how
they have been trained,
and how, how that's different
and may compliment them.
What are your thoughts? Like
what would you say to that, to
that audience member about
how to approach a reset
with, with their administrator?
- Sure. No, that's a fascinating question.
And this does happen
on the administrative side,
we are trained to resolve
issues that come up
when we sense, either we see it ourselves
or we sense it's going on to address
where the challenges are directly.
So if I have an issue with
another administrator,
for instance, it's incumbent
upon me to reach out to
that administrator and
say, Hey, can we chat?
You know, could we, could
we go have coffee together
or go for a walk together?
I got something on my
mind that I'd like to kind
of chew on together with you.
Same thing for physicians.
If there's a belief from
that physician standpoint
that maybe things aren't
going as well, administrators,
like nothing more than for
their physician partners to reach out
to them directly and say,
Hey Mark, I've got a question
or I've got something on my mind.
Do you mind, some
of the best chats I've ever
had in my career have happened
late at night via text message,
late phone call on the weekends
when the physician just
needs somebody to talk to.
Remember, it's stressful.
We know administrators know
it is very, very stressful for
physicians. They don't often
have other people they can talk
to about things.
They feel it's all on them.
Allow us as the administrator
to be the relief valve.
I always tell my physician
partners, you can contact me
whenever you need to, 24 7, 365,
and we can chat whenever you want to.
It may not be in person. We
may be in different places,
but always up and available for a chat.
And there are times we, we
get crossways as human beings.
We're not perfect and sometimes we
just need somebody to talk to.
And the, the relationship
becomes even more robust when
that trust is there and those
conversations can happen.
- I hope our physicians, laboratory
professional, audience is
hearing this and hearing this as an
opportunity to reach out.
Even if you have a great relationship
with your administrator,
might, this might be a,
a great time to, to
reach out and say, hey,
and for students, this might
be the time to reach out
and say like, maybe,
maybe the relationship
that your mentors are having
with their administrators
is not so obvious and,
and something that you see
that might be a topic to, to bring up.
'cause as Mark's bringing up
this ability to work, I think
that administrators are maybe able
to make your medical decisions like
sustainable and actually happen.
I think, mark, you bring a
certain amount of reality
fantasy in my mind,
- Right to Dr. Kreuter to that
point, we, the worst thing
that can happen is if
we have a, a physician,
whether it be a, a staff
physician, a fellow, a resident,
an intern, medical student,
wherever we are in our journey,
the worst thing we can
have happen to them is
for those individuals to
be completely burnt out,
to get crossways and
then to get unhealthy.
And there are concerns, there
are concerns in the industry.
The data is real that says,
because of those pressures
that physicians have,
we are seeing things like
substance abuse all the way
to unfortunately suicide.
And we do not want that to
happen. Everybody matters, right?
So when there's that relationship
where you feel like you're
stuck, if nothing else reach out
to your administrator,
a manager you work with,
we want to help you.
We want to have that conversation.
That is what we are paid to
do, is to ensure that members
of our team are good.
- You know, I thought I
was gonna have to pivot
into my final question, but you
just made the perfect segue.
So for our audience, Mark
also has, as you could hear,
a strong passion for
supporting wellbeing and,
and looking at this from a very practical
and effective perspective.
I'm curious, you know, Mark,
do you have some parting
reflections about taking care of ourselves
and those around us?
- It is a complex topic.
We talk often in the industry
about work life balance.
For instance. That notion
means something different
to everybody, right?
We can't just universally apply
and say, well, gosh,
you know, everybody has
to work all weekend long,
or nobody's working on the weekend,
or, you know, you must
work till five o'clock
or till six o'clock,
or, you know, it's different
for everybody, right?
What is not different for
everybody is that, again,
we are all human beings.
We all come, our backgrounds
are all different.
We all have unique perspectives.
None of us are exactly the same.
So if we can seek to understand
and just listen to people,
sometimes it takes a little extra time.
But if we seek to understand
and say, gosh, this is an
incredible human being who's right
before me, what can I
learn from that individual?
Also, if you assume that anybody
you walk by on the street,
at least half the time, that
person's in crisis, for real.
If you have that impression
as you walk by, as you use,
sit in your meetings, as
you walk the floors in the
hospital, as you see patients
in the exam rooms, et cetera,
at least half the time
that person's in crisis
in some way in their life,
they may not tell you that.
But if we have, if we open our
hearts and we open our ears
and we open our eyes and
make it comfortable for folks
to share what's on their mind,
I think we can help each other out.
And who doesn't need a little
help on their journey. Right?
So I, I like the idea of
just take time to listen.
It doesn't take very long
and you could save somebody if you listen.
- So important. I love that.
Hitting home with listening to each other.
And I think this kind of
brings up the, the major theme
of this podcast is listening
to other professionals
that are working with us
in this healthcare arena.
It's complex like you started out,
and by listening, we can really
make a lot of difference.
Yeah. Thank you so much for
rounding with us today, Mark.
- Yeah, thank you Dr. Kreuter.
It was great to visit with you.
- And thank you to the
audience for being here today.
We invite you to share your thoughts
and suggestions via
MCLeducation@mayo.edu.
If you've enjoyed this
podcast, please subscribe
until our next rounds together.
We encourage you to continue
to connect lab medicine
and the clinical practice
through insightful conversations.