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A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.
Speaker: Good morning, Mr.
Tom.
Morning,
Speaker 2: Paul.
How you doing, sir?
I'm doing pretty well.
We're both a little sniffly.
I hope that's not too Sniffly, whiffly.
audible on the podcast.
I hope it wasn't me who got
you sniffly, because I was a
little Oh yeah, you were sick.
I was sick this past Yeah.
week since our last episode.
But I'm COVID's still around, apparently.
I never tested positive for COVID.
I don't know that I had it but
my symptoms did remind me of it.
I a sore throat and brain fog were my
two big symptoms, which is also the
symptoms I had the first time I had COVID
when I actually tested positive for it.
That's actually, that's something I
wanted to bring up on this podcast.
We've already talked about this a
little bit, but The brain fog sucks.
I forgot how unpleasant
Speaker: it
Speaker 2: is every time.
Speaker: Yes.
Somehow every time we get sick,
it's Oh my gosh, this is horrible.
Speaker 2: This one really was a
reminder of that for me, even though
I wasn't like I was not nearly as sick
as I was the first time I had COVID.
I was only I took one sick day from work.
I was out of commission,
but really, the reason was.
I couldn't focus on anything.
I was just like sitting at my
desk, like doing truly nothing.
And then I'd look at the
clock and an hour had passed.
And I was like, what is going on?
I'm not doing anything.
But part of what I was grappling with,
I realized is something that I almost
never encounter as in my adult life that I
remember from childhood, which is boredom.
I was like, For that couple of days
where I was really brain fogged,
I was bored in a, and I remembered
what it was like to be bored in a way
that I had completely forgotten about
because when I'm a healthy adult,
Speaker: you're never bored.
Speaker 2: And in the modern world, I
truly feel like I'm basically never bored.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
It was agonizing, I take it.
Being bored.
Speaker 2: Agonizing is
maybe a little dramatic.
But it sucked, yeah.
Yeah, I was not having fun.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yes.
You're
Speaker: right, I haven't felt
like Really upset about having
nothing to do in a while,
Speaker 2: right?
Yeah, I remember it as a kid like Looking
over all my toys like red hot lucky
privileged me and looking at every one
of my toys and being like no This will
not do And then be like, oh no disaster.
I'm bored.
There is nothing for me to do and it
sucked because You want to like, okay,
you realize that and you're like,
okay, now I want to do something.
Yeah, and you can't and
you're like, oh, this sucks.
Now.
I want to do something.
Yeah, you're just paralyzed.
Speaker: I'm surprised so you had
you felt boredom Like at home not
even, because I remember it in
like car rides or plane trips.
I remember
Speaker 2: intense feelings
of boredom as a child.
Just regularly.
As at home because I didn't want to, I
was sick of I didn't know, I had playtime
and I, there was nothing I wanted to play.
You
Speaker: had a twin brother too.
I
Speaker 2: know, yes, we
would be bored together.
This was a shared experience where we
could agree that nothing was worth doing.
So I guess that was nice.
Yes, I think we would No,
I'm not making fun of you.
I agree with you.
I also had the experiences
aborted that you remember.
Yeah, for sure of just yes, I'm driving
to soccer practice and there's nothing
to keep me entertained or whatever.
Yeah,
Speaker: So what's the
silver lining of boredom?
Like I've heard there is an
expression that it's good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, people say that.
I think there's truth to that in that
like we're all overstimulated and taking
a break from all our devices and so forth.
And just the degree of stimulation
we get all the time is probably good.
I actually don't think that this kind
of boredom has much of a silver lining
other than maybe just the nice reminder
of like how lucky we are to be able
to have interesting, entertaining
lives all the freaking time right now.
I didn't feel like I get this sort of
the general principle of it's good to sit
with yourself and not just like totally.
Drown out all your thoughts
with consuming stuff.
Speaker: Cause, cause actually
I, I think about that too.
I think that there is an argument to be
made that actually, even as adults, we
are constantly, we are often in a state
of boredom, but what we do is we have
painkillers for that, which come in the
form of like surface level entertainment,
like scrolling TikTok or, opening YouTube.
And so We haven't felt the pain as
much because we have better tooling.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah, I think that's right.
Okay, yeah, so I think that's maybe a more
nuanced way of saying it where In my adult
life, I experience like milliseconds of
boredom, which I can meet my body is so
good at identifying and resolving with
some sort of stupid entertainment where I
Speaker: take most of it.
Sometimes I have to sit down on the
toilet and I just, I'm like, oh no.
Yes.
But then.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's actually, that
is probably, as far as, yes, modern life.
If you somehow sit down on the toilet
and you have not brought your phone.
Without your phone.
You're like, fuck.
Fuck . It's agony.
Yes, totally.
Yeah.
That is basically, yeah.
Yes.
I that I think is the closest
healthy adult equivalent
to what I was experiencing.
Speaker: Okay.
Okay.
And the agony is helpful.
'cause, I could see the argument that
it's just like a strength training.
It's just Yes.
Our brains like yeah.
You have, can see it as a form of you
appreciate what you have more than when
you realize sometimes you don't have it.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: But, okay, let me
push back on that a little bit.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: When I'm healthy and my
brain is fully functioning, You're
Speaker: not bored.
Speaker 2: I can do stuff where I'm
just like thinking, like even just
daydreaming, and I'm not bored.
I can go on a long walk or a hike by
myself and just like let my thoughts come
and go, and that isn't boredom to me.
So I don't think it's just about the
availability of instant entertainment.
Speaker: So it's it's a
combination of knowing center
entertainment and maybe some kind
of unhealthy psychological state?
Or,
Speaker 2: Maybe, or just
for me yeah, I don't know.
Somehow not being able, not feeling
like you're able to either act.
Interestingly explore your own thoughts
and interstate or something is the
is okay, but it's an issue question
Why is it true that on the toilet?
I would experience boredom.
Yeah, but on a walk I
wouldn't yeah with the same
Speaker: Stimulus.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: I guess the hike is
providing like more stimulating.
Yeah, you're Look at stuff, right?
You're moving around you notice
your body moving and stuff I
don't have an answer to that.
Is it because
Speaker: you're supposed
to be bored on a hike?
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay
that's probably true.
Whereas?
You've like mentally prepared yourself.
This is what you're doing now.
Yeah.
Whereas in most of our day
to day life, we're expecting
to have input all the time.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, so I think that's a,
yeah, I think that's part of it.
It's relative to your expectations.
Speaker: It's a very interesting topic.
I don't know what to think of it.
I agree that I haven't
been bored in a long time.
Yeah.
Other than
Speaker 2: micro board?
Micro, micro
Speaker: boredoms, which I'm able
to immediately resolve Immediately.
Yes.
Resolve, yeah.
Yeah.
Immediately.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: And I don't know
if I, from first principles
understand why that's a problem.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
I guess I have one more thought about it,
which is maybe eventually I don't know.
Pure speculation.
Yeah.
But part of the reason.
We don't deal with boredom that
much in this stage of our lives
is because there's so much we can
do in our lives to, to keep things
interesting in part because we have,
we're very, our bodies are very able.
Our minds are very able.
We've, we're lucky to have disposable
income and friends and interesting
city we live in and all this
stuff that keeps us entertained.
Eventually in our lives, some of those
things will cease to be true and then
boredom might creep back in, even though
we'll still have phones and computers and
whatever else, I just have this feeling
that with age we're gonna, we'll encounter
this problem more, not less because.
Some of the stuff that entertains us now
will be less interesting and whatever.
So maybe there's a way of saying that
dealing with that kind of boredom
now is practice for the future.
I have to imagine.
Yeah.
That's for the future.
That it's
Speaker 3: yeah,
Speaker 2: when you're, when
we're much older, there will
be times where we're bored and
Speaker 3: maybe,
Speaker 2: yeah, maybe getting
comfortable with that kind of boredom
again somehow by practicing it.
Yeah, I like that.
Speaker: As we've had this conversation,
I've come around on boredom being good,
and I'm thinking of a few examples.
One is my dad, who I think, has slowed
down the pace of what he's doing.
He he trades, and he does some
investments, he does some reading
and stuff, but he doesn't he hasn't
been working a traditional job
in, in, in three, four years now.
And I've noticed that he's just a
lot more like in family gatherings.
He's a lot more patient and kind and
like high EQ, high empathy than I
think, than I, than he used to be.
And I think maybe that is a
symptom of, you know, being more
comfortable with the pace of life and
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's nice.
Speaker: And I, yeah so in some
ways, yeah the positive effect of
sometimes being a little bored.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Is that
Speaker: Okay, yeah, you have a family
gathering and and and you don't get
frustrated over things that don't matter.
Speaker 2: You have a little more
energy and bandwidth to devote to
that thing that is interesting when
you haven't been devoting energy
to every single thing every second.
Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: And the other example
I'm thinking of is we have
some friends who live in North
Carolina and they used to live in.
San Francisco and have this huge circle
of friends they would see all the time.
And now they live in North Carolina
and they're basically, it's just them.
I say, wow.
Or they don't have that
many friends out there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so what we visited Yeah.
Or I visited rather.
And they like, they were ready
to spend every day, every
hour of every day with me.
Me day hanging out with you.
Like they didn't pressure me.
Yes.
But I was like, . I just
was like, I need some time.
I need some alone time.
Totally.
And they were just.
So happy, genuinely to just hang out
whatever form it took their board.
Sorry, board is the negative way
to put it, but I think that, I
think it makes you appreciate you
Speaker 2: get this healthy
appetite for social interaction.
That's right.
That's right.
And you appreciate the
people who come visit you.
Yeah.
Speaker: Whereas like when we have
friends visiting us in SF these
days, there are, there's people
that we haven't seen in a long time
and we're very excited about seeing
them, but there is a degree to which.
Speaker 2: They're a burden.
We need a little bit of time.
No, not that.
We
Speaker: need a little bit of alone time.
Yeah.
Even on a, just a single weekend.
Yes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah to connect.
I like both of those thoughts.
To connect it back even to the
title boredom and meditation
are not that far away for me.
Or I think some of what you're
describing is a sort of Meditative.
Practice that maybe both your dad
and your friends have found that
makes them more appreciative.
Yeah and more present in The good stuff.
Speaker: Yeah, boredom gives you the
sense of What is the opportunity cost of
having this interaction right now all of
a sudden that opportunity cost goes down?
Speaker 2: Yeah,
Speaker: if you've been bored recently,
then you're like Yeah, if I wasn't having
this conversation, I'd just be sitting on
my couch and looking into the distance.
I'd be doing nothing.
So I'd rather just let's talk through it.
Yeah, whatever price this
Speaker 2: requires is worth it.
Whereas I think like the Us busy
coastal people are like, oh, I don't
want to deal with this right now.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm like, I have
some conception of something
better I could be doing.
Yes, I could be
Speaker 2: looking at my phone.
Speaker: Yeah,
Speaker 2: I
Speaker: could be looking at my phone.
Speaker 2: Yep, I think that's right.
I guess maybe there's also
an opportunity, I think.
Having had this conversation for us
to find a little bit of empathy for
Marcus, because I think much more
boredom obviously is the standard
of human history, like all of human
history involved, I think far more
boredom than That we experienced.
That's my sense.
I think even Marcus must have been
bored more often, just because
I think that's how life worked.
I didn't, I hope I just hit my microphone.
I hope it sounds okay.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yes.
I think even he probably was
bored more frequently than we are.
That's my guess.
Speaker: And so how should, how
does that change our reading?
Speaker 2: I guess it just means to me
that I see him somewhat as someone maybe
more like your dad, as you describe him.
And where I think because of that.
He maybe has, is a little more attuned
to the sort of joys and sorrows or
like the benefits and disadvantages of
participating in the different things he's
describing, that he's more reflective.
Yeah.
He's a meditative guy.
So I don't know if it changes my reading
so much as maybe just that's a way of
explaining a little bit of why it's a way
of understanding how he arrived at this.
He's writing down.
That's nice.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker: All right.
Let's try reading it with and see if
there's a sections where we're like,
wow, he must have been really bored.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Let's give it a try.
We are in book six, entry number 25.
Perfect.
Think how much is going on inside you
every second in your soul, in your body.
Why should it astonish you that so much
more, everything that happens in that all
embracing unity, the world is happening.
At the same time.
Okay.
He doesn't seem bored at all.
He's he is in fact, it seems like
he is his default attitude is he
is overwhelmed by how much stuff is
going on in the world to an extent
that it's almost unbelievable,
Speaker: but I almost, but I think
this is the response to boredom.
It's don't be bored because there's so
much going on inside of you every second.
But then he's responding even to
Speaker 2: that thought by saying,
Okay, wait a minute, is it shocking
that there's so much going on
in shouldn't even be shocking.
It shouldn't be shocking, because
think about how complicated you are.
Sure.
There's so much going on inside
you, obviously the world is going
to be, have at least as much
crazy simultaneous stuff going on.
Speaker: What is the statement
what end does it achieve?
What is the point?
I think.
Speaker 2: I kinda get
where this is coming from.
To me, it's a reaction to a thought I
had as a, I remember having as a kid, or
it's like a stoner thought to me, too.
Where you're just like, think
about the world, you're like,
whoa, and like, all this stuff is
happening at the exact same time.
Think about the crazy number of people
being born and dying and animals whatever.
Just if you imagine all the simultaneous
stuff go, that, That happens in
a single instant on the planet.
You can trip yourself out or whatever.
And he's wow should I
be tripped out by that?
Is that so crazy?
No.
And then he's no, put that
thought away although he's really
also just saying actually each
one of us is similarly insane.
I'm curious, this makes sense to me from
a modern reading of we know, for instance,
how complex the human body is and how
much is going on inside it all the time.
in order to keep the body functioning.
But his concept of how much is
going on inside you every second,
he, he implies that there's a lot
going on, but what does he think is
going on inside you every second?
They don't have much of an
understanding of how human bodies work.
I guess he means, I guess he
means inside you, what he says
in your soul, in your body.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
They knew what every organ looked like.
Yeah.
They just
Speaker 2: didn't know
what any of them did.
Yeah.
They But they knew all
Speaker: the stuff that was inside you.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
They knew there was a bunch of mysterious
stuff and they had their ideas.
Yeah.
And you could pull it out.
You could pull it out and it had,
and they poke it and it weird
Speaker: juices in it.
Yeah.
It's got juices.
Yeah.
There's a lot gone inside you.
Yeah.
But but they didn't know what it did.
Speaker 2: And there
Speaker: were,
They had
Speaker 2: theories about what it did.
Speaker: Yeah.
They maybe had theories and they had
he was like, there's the soul, there's
the mind, there's all the thoughts.
Speaker 2: He says in your
body specifically, but yeah.
Speaker: Oh, you think the
mind is not part of the body?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true.
I feel like he separates those concepts.
He does.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah,
Speaker: very interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
I like it.
I do think, yeah.
Sometimes he is just responding
to stuff that we think.
Yeah.
Or that I think of as oh yeah, that's
like a sort of teenage thought.
That's, yeah.
But, yeah, no, I think, yeah.
Speaker: I think your teenage thought
includes a bunch of late philosophy
nihilism type stuff, which is not,
would not have been considered
a teenage thought in the past.
Yeah, maybe.
Maybe.
Okay.
Speaker 2: Number 26.
If someone asked you how to write
your name, would you clench your teeth
and spit out the letters one by one?
Speaker 3: What?
Speaker 2: If you lost his temper, would
you lose yours as well, or would you
just spell out the individual letters?
Remember, your responsibilities can be
broken down into individual parts as well.
Concentrate on those, and finish the
job methodically, without getting
stirred up or meeting anger with anger.
Okay, this is a funny enough question.
Wait,
Speaker: someone asked
Marcus how to spell his name.
I
Speaker 2: think he's
using this as an analogy.
So he's saying, it would be insert.
Let's, suppose someone asked you to spell
your name, and you were like, Ugh, God,
Speaker: fuck you.
Why?
Because you should know how to
spell my name, I'm the Emperor?
Speaker 2: I think it's because it's
there's nothing complicated about
telling someone how to spell your name.
No, I don't think it has anything
to do with being the Emperor.
My reading is more just Basically
all human interactions are like this.
Somebody asks you to do a task, and
it's easy for you to do that task.
All you have to do is do a simple thing.
Your choice is, you could be like, Oh god,
obviously this is how you spell my name.
Or you
Speaker: could just spell your name.
Speaker 2: And he's saying, there's
no reason to do the one where
you're, You clench your teeth and
spit out the letters one by one.
And lose your temper and all this stuff.
All responsibilities work this way.
Just do it.
Speaker: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I
Speaker: like the example.
Yes, I agree.
The
Speaker 2: most interesting
part is, it's a cool example.
The idea that I would get
Speaker: so angry about having to spell my
name doesn't quite make sense to me, but
Speaker 2: Yeah, our relationship
to spelling has maybe changed
from the time this was written.
Yeah.
If
Speaker: he lost his temper, would you
lose, why would he lose his temper?
Speaker 2: I think if you clenched
your teeth and were like being
rude to him about how to spell
his name, maybe he would get mad
and then maybe you would get mad.
Okay.
There's a whole situation
where this spirals.
Okay.
Yeah, I like this rhetorically actually.
The place where the analogy is a little
bit suspect to me is is it really
true that all human responsibilities
are equivalent to spelling your name?
Some of them are actually like,
sometimes you're the emperor.
Somebody asked you to do something hard.
Speaker: Yeah.
I would think.
Oh, but it can all be
broken into down into steps.
Yeah.
Concentrate on those steps.
Finish, finish the job methodically.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Sure.
Don't, yeah.
Don't, what is the, I, someone
shared this expression with me.
I, it's pretty famous and I like it.
It's between action and
reaction lies a small space.
And in that space is the
key to life and happiness.
That's
Speaker 2: nice.
Yeah.
Speaker: It's you just, just do
just, yeah, just don't get angry.
Yeah.
Take a minute.
You can control your reaction.
Speaker 2: Yes.
That, that is it.
Yeah.
I think an extremely stoic sentiment
right there that yeah, what you can
control, the only essentially is just
what happens in that little millisecond.
Yeah.
Yeah, it was nice.
I think that was a very,
That's modern stoicism.
It's, yeah.
Yeah.
It's a really good one.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I like this analogy, though.
I think, I don't know if
I'll ever look at spelling.
I don't spell my name very often, but if
somebody asked me to spell my name again.
Speaker: I feel like Marcus
calling customer support.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was true.
I actually do, we spell our
names, because you have to spell
it on the phone or whatever.
Yeah.
Okay.
And I get pretty upset sometimes.
I get, now that I think about it.
Especially.
I do generally punch my teeth.
Speaker: I know, especially when
I'm like, I'm calling a service
that like has already triple checked
connected my user profile with,
and so they should have my name.
They should have my, they're confirming
Speaker 2: that it's still you.
Speaker: Oh yeah.
There's that.
But then the last repeated information
is, Like when it's not just confirmation
and stuff that they should already know.
Actually, this is extremely
Speaker 2: prescient of Marcus.
Yeah, he knew.
He knew.
He's way ahead of the game in terms
of anticipating how repeatedly
spelling your name might actually
be a source of aggravation.
Very frustrating.
Yeah, wow.
Okay.
Boy, just another point
in this guy's favor here.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Number
Speaker 2: 27.
How cruel to forbid people to want
what they think is good for them.
And yet that's just what you
won't let them do when you get
angry at their misbehavior.
They're drawn toward what they think is
good for them, but it's not good for them.
That's in a quote, that's a
response to the first paragraph,
but it's not good for them.
Then show them that, prove it to
them instead of losing your temper.
Speaker: Wow.
Okay.
So this is anti micromanagement, Marcus.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: So I'm reading this as.
We call this scraping, let them scrape
their knee, like, where it's like,
you can tell a kid not to run over
the railroad tracks, or you can let
them run over the railroad tracks
and trip and learn their lesson.
Yes.
That's nice.
I like it.
Yeah.
I don't know, the last part makes
me think it's, maybe it's different
because he says then show them that,
prove it to them, which to me sounds
like throw them on the railroad tracks.
Speaker 2: But I think you could
look at it as by letting the
kid fall on the railroad tracks,
you're proving it to them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, yes I think, yeah, there's something
of this matches some modern education
philosophy or management philosophy here.
I think about
Speaker: it is cruel to forbid people to
want what they think is good for them.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
It's a very liberal, classically liberal
thought that we are all humans who
have desires and like we should, and
like a fundamental right of ours is to
have those desires and explore them.
And so your job as a leader is not
to manage those desires or to tell
people what they should desire.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But instead actually help them.
Match their desires or understand
their desires better and show them
what they really should want through
persuasive means and not coercive means.
Yeah, it's a very like.
It's a very democratic thought,
I think, in a way, too.
I really like the
Speaker: first
Speaker 2: line.
Yeah.
How
Speaker: cruel.
How cruel, yeah.
To forbid people to want what
they think is good for them.
Speaker 2: Yes.
It sounds to me, it sounds like
Alexander Hamilton or something, too.
I get a sort of American
Speaker: Yeah, Founding Fathers.
Founding
Speaker 2: Fathers vibe from this one.
Speaker: That's cool.
Speaker 2: I like it.
Yeah, alright.
Alright, Marcus.
I'm, you're, right now you've got me.
In your corner.
Number 28.
Death.
The end of self of sense perception.
Of being controlled by our emotions.
Of mental activity.
Of enslavement to our bodies.
Speaker: Perfect.
No follow up questions.
Makes sense.
Okay.
I don't know why he
writes stuff like this.
Speaker 2: Yeah he's thinking about death.
It's an interesting one because he
balances he the end of four things.
Two of which are framed as either
neutral or good and two of which are
bad, but I don't know if they're,
Speaker: they all seem bad to me.
Speaker 2: Sense perception
on its face seems good.
It's perception.
Sense perception.
I like perceiving stuff.
Yeah, yeah.
I think that one's presented
pretty neutrally being
controlled by our emotions.
That one is, I guess the
most clearly negative to me.
Same as, but also our bodies.
Yes.
Yeah.
But okay.
Both of them, those are very bad.
Very choice framings of you could
look at it as being controlled and
enslaved, or you could look at it as
look at these things we get to have,
And mental activity is presented
pretty neutrally as well, I think,
but both those perceptions of mental
activity are phrased neutrally, but
I think of as pretty positive things.
Sure.
So he's just trying to come pretty good.
He's trying to comfort himself
by saying that the things we lose
in death are not so good anyway.
Yeah, yes.
Your body that you seem to enjoy.
No, it's enslaving you.
So yeah.
Number 29 disgraceful for the soul to give
up when the body is still going strong.
Wow.
Okay.
He's grappling with something here.
Speaker: Disgraceful.
I feel like that shouldn't
be something you care about.
Marcus grace.
Yeah.
That's
Speaker 2: interesting,
Speaker: but okay.
Yeah.
Disgraceful.
There's a sense of honor undignified
for the soul to give up when
the body is still going strong.
Speaker 2: You think, I guess my naive
reading of this is he's feeling something
about like he wants to give up, but
he has no excuse for giving up really.
It's a sad sentence.
You can't do that.
Yeah,
Speaker: totally.
It's your soul wants to give
up, but it's guilt that's
forcing you not to or something.
It could be framed positively,
sorry to interrupt.
It could be framed like, true honor.
Continue to push forward as
long as your body goes strong.
Speaker 2: Yeah,
Speaker: like that's the
positive flip on this.
Yes,
Speaker 2: yeah.
The soul faces challenges.
And you overcome them.
Yes.
Yeah.
Speaker: But this is him being sad.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Soul to give up on that.
Yeah, and I guess I'll,
frankly, moderating.
You could interpret this as being
about depression or something like
that, and it's just shaming it,
which is not how we think about it.
Yeah, it is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
All right.
A little bit of historical
distance from this one, Marcus.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Okay.
This one's a big one.
Number 30.
To escape imperialization,
that indelible stain.
It happens.
Make sure you remain straightforward,
upright, reverent, serious,
unadorned, an ally of justice,
pious, kind, affectionate, and
doing your duty with a will.
Fight to be the person
philosophy tried to make you.
Revere the gods, watch over human beings.
Our lives are short.
The only rewards of our existence here are
an unstained character and unselfish acts.
Take Antoninus as your model, always.
His energy in doing what was rational,
his steadiness in any situation, his sense
of reverence, his calm expression, his
gentleness, his modesty, his eagerness to
grasp things, and how he never let things
go before he was sure he had examined them
thoroughly, understood them perfectly.
The way he put up with unfair
criticism without returning it,
how he couldn't be hurried, how
he wouldn't listen to informers.
How reliable he was as a judge of
character and of actions, not prone to
backbiting or cowardice or jealousy or
empty rhetoric, content with the basics,
in living quarters, bedding, clothes,
food, servants, how hard he worked, how
much he put up with, his ability to work
straight through till dusk because of
his simple diet, parentheses, he didn't
even need to relieve himself except at
set times, his constancy and reliability
as a friend, His tolerance of people
who openly questioned his views, and his
delight at seeing his ideas improved on,
his piety without a trace of superstition,
so that when your time comes, your
conscience will be as clear as his.
Wow.
What a love letter.
Speaker: Boy as the resident historian.
Who's anus?
I don't know.
I forget is, oh, I wish I,
I feel like it's an emperor.
Can
Speaker 2: you flip back
to the first chapter?
This is a, this to me very much
hearkens back to the first chapter,
which was our, his little gratitude
journal to all the people.
And it's easier for you in your
physical book to flip back.
Speaker: Yeah.
I'll take a look.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: He must, this must be a
guy he thanked in the first chapter.
I feel like.
Yeah I obviously have absolutely no idea.
All
Speaker: right.
I'll look for
Speaker 2: it.
Okay.
I, it's a very nice, a very poetic piece.
It's a classic Marcus list of just let's
list all the good things you could imagine
about how, what you should be like with
no sets of how you break ties or deal
with when those things come into conflict.
But the, this depiction of
Mans Aus is lovely, I think.
Speaker: It might be my adopted father.
I forget.
They all these Roman emperors had
like the way we know them today is
not what they were called at the time.
They were basically all called Caesar,
Antoninus, Separatist something.
It's probably one of those people.
Okay, so here's my gut
reaction, knee jerk reaction.
I think it's dangerous to have role
models that you see no fault with.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: I think it.
Is a recipe for anxiety and I
don't know and just It's not real.
Like it means you didn't know that
person very well, like everyone struggles
with things and Yeah, and I just
yeah, I feel like it robs being so one
dimensional about someone maybe he's
just framing it in this way But yeah,
but I feel like he's chosen to ignore
the dimensionality of this person.
Yeah, whoever Antoninus is.
Yeah And I worry that's not healthy.
It's not.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but at all.
I agree with that.
It's the, one of the big dangers
from my perspective is the way it
sets you up for disillusionment.
If you really believe that
this person is so perfect.
And it
Speaker: makes you No, it robs you of
your own self-worth and self-confidence.
Yeah.
'cause you don't go to the
bathroom at scheduled times.
Yeah.
sometimes you just have to go . Yeah.
That is the best one.
By the way.
He's agree.
Such a great person.
Yes.
He's such a great person, Tom.
Speaker 2: His ability to work
straight through until dusk,
because of his simple diet.
He didn't even need to relieve
himself except at set times.
At set times.
Yes, Tom.
Yeah.
Pretty remarkable.
Yeah.
Yes.
Can you.
Speaker: No, I sure can't.
Let me tell ya.
Speaker 2: Um, uh, yes, I, so I agree
with your perspective that this seems like
potentially a very lopsided account or,
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I guess the big question is
this really all Marcus thinks about this
guy, or is he just doing a thing where
he is setting aside The good stuff.
The, yeah.
Yeah.
I think it is possible
that he's doing that.
That he's saying, yes, actually Antoninus,
despite all this good stuff I'm about to
say, there were other ways in which he
was not so good, although it's hard to
imagine exactly what those are based on
all the Yeah, What space does this leave?
It doesn't leave a ton of
Speaker: space.
No, but the whole sentiment is be
like Antoninus, do all these things,
so that when your time comes,
your conscience will be clear.
Which the what that really is implying is
if you, if an, if you violate any of these
things, your conscious will not be clear.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2: Which feels wrong.
This is, yeah, you have to do,
this is a checklist of all the
stuff you have to do in order to.
Yes.
Yes, I agree with that.
And so it's like the, yeah, it's like
setting unrealistic expectations.
It's unrealistic
Speaker: expectations and it's
setting yourself up so that if
you make just one mistake all of a
sudden, it's like a binary thing.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: In the spirit of being
generous to Marcus with these readings,
I think, let's say he's wise enough
to say, okay, listen, I'm just a guy,
We're all doing our best.
But think about
Speaker: Antoninus.
Like
Speaker 2: Antoninus is just that's
what the point of a lot of this
writing is to articulate what I think
he knows are somewhat unattainable
or very difficult to attain
objectives about how we should live.
Speaker: He does say fight to be the
person philosophy is trying to make you.
So that's nice.
So it's, he knows it's a battle.
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
So I think and I, and I do think a lot
of these little pieces of praise he gives
Antonidas are quite nice and specific.
Speaker: Sure.
Maybe he's, it's more about
appreciating this person than it is
about setting unrealistic standards.
Yes.
It is nice.
The one that sticks with me
is obviously the going to the
bathroom but it's cool, yeah.
Speaker 2: A couple others
that I like, though.
His
Speaker: consistency and
reliability as a friend.
Speaker 2: The he never let things go
before he was sure he'd examined them
thoroughly and understood them perfectly.
That, that.
Speaker: Pretty dramatic.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
It almost sounds like criticism in
a way but it's in this list with all
this praise, which makes me think that
Marcus thinks of this as praise, which
is really interesting praise to me.
I couldn't be hurried.
He seems like annoying.
He's probably very pedantic and if
you say one sentence to him, he's
going to spend an hour musing about
that sentence and you're going to just
have to sit there and listen to him.
Speaker: Yeah.
He wouldn't listen to
informers is a cool one.
Yeah,
Speaker 2: that one sticks to me as well.
That one's great.
Yeah.
I
Speaker: think that's the only way.
Speaker 2: The way he put up with
unfair criticism without returning it.
Yeah.
And he's delighted seeing his ideas
improved upon are both pretty cool to me.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker 2: Not
Speaker: prone to backbiting,
cowardice, jealousy, or empty rhetoric.
I hate all those things too.
Speaker 2: His eagerness to grasp
things is a cool thing to like
Ooh, I wanna grasp this one!
I assume he means
intellectually grasp that.
But, even that's like also,
it implies that he's dumb.
That's a funny reading.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I really want to understand this.
He really wants to understand things.
He's so cute.
One of his best traits is his
desire to understand things.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, he's a big thinker.
He can be hurried.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
Energetic.
Yeah, anyway.
I enjoyed that.
I agree with you that
it's a little ambiguous.
How healthy this role model?
Yeah relationship is yeah, but I
guess if we add the reading that some
of this praise is backhanded We like
Speaker 3: yeah,
Speaker 2: maybe that becomes
clearer that it's not a total
like he's not totally reverential.
Speaker 3: Yeah
Speaker 2: Okay number 31 Awaken return
to yourself Now no longer asleep Knowing
they were only dreams clear headed again
Treat everything around you As a dream.
Speaker 3: Whoa.
Speaker 2: Interesting.
Alright, Marcus?
As far as?
As far as things that might
get embroidered on a pillow.
Yeah.
Or be a wall decoration.
That's pretty good.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It feels like one
of the stronger contenders
we've had awaken recently.
Speaker: Yeah.
It could go on a pillow actually, right?
Yeah.
Awaken
Speaker 2: return to yourself.
Certainly the most interesting
part is this last sentence.
It is.
Or the last.
Treat everything around you.
Treat everything around you as a dream.
Okay.
So
Speaker: what happens if you treat
everything around you as a dream?
Yeah.
You don't take it too seriously.
Yeah, you go along with it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you There's more
of an attitude of temporariness
maybe that you're like, yeah, this
is all like whatever Yeah, this is
all gonna be over pretty quickly.
So
Speaker: yeah, you I the thing that
distinguishes dreams from reality is Weird
shit happens and you're just go with it.
Yes, that's the main difference.
I think of
Speaker 2: yeah so okay phrase
more negatively that might be
like You don't really do much
critical thinking in dreams, right?
No, yeah.
Things that make no sense happen.
And usually you have this part of
your brain that's Wait a minute.
Speaker: Let it go.
And your
Speaker 2: dream, in dreams,
you're like, Nope, that part
of the brain is not engaging.
So we will just
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
And I guess I don't know,
is that a good sentiment?
It's not what he just
praised Antoninus for.
Yeah.
Never let things go before he was
sure he had examined them thoroughly.
Understood them perfectly.
That's not how you react in a dream.
Speaker 2: Although in a dream,
are you ever really confused?
I feel like you do feel as though you
understand things perfectly, everything.
Yeah.
It all makes enough sense
for you to keep operating.
Speaker: Sure.
But yeah, you just don't dig very deep.
You just yeah.
You're like, okay, I'm
naked and that's fine, yes.
Okay Treat so you're so be
clear headed, but then treat
everything around you as a dream.
I think he's getting
at the impermanence the
Speaker 2: Yeah,
One other thing that comes to mind for me.
I don't remember my dreams that I
don't really have a good sense of
how I behave in dreams But one sense
I have is that I think you I maybe
behave with less ego in dreams.
Like I think you're less
Speaker: Yeah
Speaker 2: Concerned
about That sort of thing.
Sure.
It's more about you're in the world
and you're just doing stuff without
worrying too much about anything else.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you remember your dreams?
I do not.
What's your, yeah, okay.
No, I don't.
I feel like I, yes.
I
Speaker: can't remember a single dream.
I know, yes.
Speaker 2: I sometimes
feel weird about that.
Yeah.
I talk to people who have very
detailed recollections of their dreams
and I'm like, what's wrong with me?
Wow.
Why don't I remember any of this?
Speaker: I think if you set alarms.
An alarm REM cycle, Tom, and then put
a little journal next to your bed.
And you might be able to do it.
Speaker 2: Is it?
Hi, I want to give, I don't
know if it's worth it.
I can perform
Speaker: this service for you.
Okay.
I don't really call you.
Speaker 2: I don't really.
No, my phone is certainly
silent at that time.
I guess maybe if you call me repeatedly,
Speaker: I'll show up.
Yeah.
You can send a horse, a man on a horse.
Notify anyway.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Yeah.
But yeah.
Okay.
Interesting sentiment.
Yeah.
And so we were talking last time about.
Making up chapters and things
we asked for the other person.
I feel like I could not
have come up with this.
Yes, that's true.
This is really different.
This is a nice Barkin's
Speaker 2: curveball.
Yeah.
Frankly, most of the ones we've dealt
with today, I don't really think.
I guess the Death one I might have been
able to write, but other than that,
I feel like pretty much all of them.
Speaker: Yeah, the Death
one and the Antoninus one.
It would have taken a lot
of work to write that.
Antoninus one?
There's no way I could do that.
Oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna
trick you with one of the Antoninus ones.
Okay, interesting.
I don't know how
Speaker 2: you're ever gonna trick me,
since I'm the one who does the reading.
Revere the gods.
What day you'll do that.
We're gonna bring,
Speaker: yeah, I'm gonna do the reading
and you, our audience will appreciate
just how good at reading Tom is.
Speaker 2: Or, here's a third idea.
Okay, I don't know about that.
Here's another version of it.
I think at some point we might
add some guests to this podcast.
We could bring it, we could bring
a guest reader on and both of us
submit a fake one and so that our
job during the episode, both of us
have to try to suss out which is the
fake one that the other, okay, cool.
We'll do that.
Okay.
Let's do one more.
That's a point.
Okay.
One, one more.
32, 32.
Oh, this one seems like
one I could have written.
Potentially.
We'll I am composed of a body and a soul.
Facts.
Things that happen to
the body are meaningless.
It cannot discriminate among them.
Nothing has meaning to my mind
except its own actions, which
are within its own control.
And it's only the
immediate ones that matter.
Its past and future actions,
too, are meaningless.
Yeah.
Okay.
So this is just the, it's another
way, a worse way of saying the thing
you said earlier, I think basically
Speaker: control the
things you can control.
Speaker 2: And the only things that
you're, you can control basically are the
present, are your present mind actions,
like body, whatever mind has a very
limited range of what it can control.
Yeah.
Primarily what is going on right now.
Speaker: Sure.
That's true.
Okay.
Yeah, you're right.
Once you explain it that
way, that is how That is the
reading that I see now as well.
Yeah
Speaker 2: It's past and future
actions too are meaningless is an
intense way of saying that That's not
really how we think of like We think
of our past and future as having a
bearing on our present for our mind.
Yeah, he's saying like
Speaker: it's live in the
present but very dramatic.
Yes, very.
Yeah, like
Speaker 2: a more intense
Speaker: Same by the way with things
that happen to the body meaning.
Yes Things that happen
Speaker 2: that it cannot discriminate
among them is a weird thing to say
Yeah, the it is the body and the them
are the things that happen to it.
Speaker: Yeah
Speaker 2: That is strange My
body can't discriminate among
the things that happen to it.
I'm gonna disagree with that Marcus
and say that, for instance, if you
punch me in the face, versus just
give me a hug, my body is capable of
discriminating between those things.
Speaker: They're meaningless, Tom.
Speaker 2: Okay, that is
actually hard to argue.
Speaker: And also it's in the past tense.
So it's also meaningless to your mind.
Everything is meaningless.
And There's
Speaker 2: a nice excuse where, yes, I
can punch you in the face now, but as
soon as you're mad about it, it's happened
in the past and that was somebody else.
It happened to two different people.
I can punch you in the
Speaker: face AND tell you're
you're stupid and both of those
things become meaningless.
Speaker 2: Completely meaningless to
both mind and body for both of us.
Yeah Okay, I don't know if you
fully thought this one through.
Speaker: Yeah, okay, so so it's symbolic
it's the whole it's this whole stoicism
thing Rephrased at another time.
Yeah
Speaker 2: a Little less
articulately though.
Yeah, sometimes he's
more on point about it.
Yeah, this one.
I'm
Speaker: buying less.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah Okay, all right, I hope, dear
listener, this was not an experience
of boredom for you since that was
a theme of this episode today.
I don't think it was.
I had a fun time.
Speaker: And if it was,
then you're welcome.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay.
Yeah.
Leave us five star reviews.
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Bye!
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