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A weekly interview podcast hosted by Melissa Hague features Courageous Coaches who explore the grit and bones of what it takes to be truly courageous. Whether you're a coach, consultant, or a leader, join us each week to explore what it really takes to be transformational in your coaching practice, your business, and your life.
Melissa Hague (00:01.838)
Welcome everybody to the Courageous Coach podcast. Thank you for being here today and watching or listening to us. And today I'm joined by the wonderful Amy Wilkinson. Welcome back, Amy. It's lovely to have you here again. And thank you for coming back. It's much appreciated.
Amy Wilkinson (00:21.125)
Thank you for asking, I feel very privileged to have been asked back.
Melissa Hague (00:24.622)
So many of you will know that Amy starred in my, in the first episode of the podcast, first series, sorry, of the podcast. In fact, I think Amy was my very first episode that went out. So here we are back again. And the reason that I really wanted to kind of extend or continue the conversation with Amy is in that first episode, we spoke a lot about, you know, how you got to where you are, but also your
your coaching business and how that's kind of been shaped and shifted and changed and the whole kind of fearless foodies movement, which, you know, is really fascinating to me. You found your groove, if you like. And so I really wanted to invite you back to talk about a bit more about building that coaching business, you know, what have been the challenges, where has courage played a part? And maybe also sharing, you know, some of the things that have worked really well and
Amy Wilkinson (01:05.813)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Melissa Hague (01:22.23)
maybe some the things that haven't worked so well because there will have been those two, right? So yeah, so not everyone will have listened to that first episode maybe, Amy. Go listen to it if you haven't. Yeah, absolutely, how rude. But yeah, do listen to the first episode of the first season to hear Amy's full story. But Amy, tell us a little bit of an introduction about you and a little bit about that business, right? Let's talk about that.
Amy Wilkinson (01:26.441)
Yeah, definitely.
Amy Wilkinson (01:33.163)
Why not if you haven't?
Amy Wilkinson (01:50.225)
Yeah, so yeah, so Amy Wilkinson, thank you for having me again. I founded a business coming up to five years ago. At the time it was known as Amy Wilkinson Coaching Limited, because one of the things I had to do was put on my big girl pants and just get on with it. And I was doing the whole, well, I've got to come up with a name and a logo and this, that and the other. And I was like, no, just call it that.
Melissa Hague (02:06.318)
Thanks
Amy Wilkinson (02:16.363)
Um, and then over time, and I'm sure we'll delve into this a little bit more, um, it evolved and I very much niched in the area of the food industry. in, uh, beginning of, I'm trying to think now 2024, maybe it was 2023, who knows? Um, I rebranded as Fearless Foodies. and Fearless Foodies is, I struggle to, um, should be so much better at this like.
sales pitch bit, but it is a business that focuses on leadership, learning and development specific to the food industry. So by the food industry, mean food manufacturing, retail. So the stuff that you see that ends up on the supermarket shelves. And the reason for that is because that is where all of my expertise are. That was my first career working across lots and lots of different functions within that.
And I saw that there was a need for training around what they would call soft skills. I hate the word soft skills, but those softer skills, the actual skills that you need to get the job done in certain areas of that industry. And almost the frustrations that I had had for the last 20 years of why do we not teach people this stuff? Actually coming along and helping people with that stuff. So the business very much evolved from being a one-to-one coaching business.
Melissa Hague (03:18.466)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (03:39.723)
to me being asked to do more and more group workshops, team coaching, lots of different things. So it's evolved over time. So it's gone from being just me to me having a team of 10, 11 now, think, associate coaches as well that all have their own businesses, but that come and support me in various ways with one-to-one coaching and the training and everything, team coaching. Yeah, and it's gone from strength to strength.
And like, sort of don't really know how, but maybe like you'll help me get to how it happened in this conversation. I do know how, I do know how I'm doing myself a disservice.
Melissa Hague (04:17.184)
Yeah, absolutely. Of course. Yeah, you are. You absolutely are. And, and, and, but we do that, don't we? How did I get here? You know, I, blimey, I turned around and I've kind of got a business or I, you know, and how did that happen? And it happened through lots of hard work and commitment and courage and being vulnerable and putting yourself out there, right? Yeah. Which is easy. I'm really curious about this niching thing.
Amy Wilkinson (04:24.139)
Mm.
Mm. Mm.
No.
Amy Wilkinson (04:42.964)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (04:47.244)
Right. Because I think this is something that, you know, look, it's open to debate to niche or not to niche. And I kind of sometimes come down on one side of the argument and sometimes come down on the other depending, usually just depending on how I feel about my niche, really. But I'm curious from your perspective, what's the difference or the impact that niching has had for you?
Amy Wilkinson (04:47.263)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Melissa Hague (05:16.77)
and your work, is it as important as some people tell us it is?
Amy Wilkinson (05:21.995)
I think for me, it's been the key to some, totally the key to my success because, and I think it's a really interesting one. And I, you know, I've talked to a lot of coaches and had a lot of that debate. And I think particularly for me as somebody who didn't come from a learning and development background or an HR background or have any of that kind of network, why were people going to trust me over somebody that had got that background in, the coaching space, in the whatever space.
Melissa Hague (05:26.286)
Hmm.
Amy Wilkinson (05:52.043)
And actually the, and I don't get me wrong, I resisted when I first started, I was never going to work in the food industry again. was like, Jack it all in. That's it. don't want to hear about a custard tart again in my life. But actually over time, I realized that the coaching conversations I was having, I was able to get to.
the crux of things a lot quicker because I could understand, know, shared understanding, empathy, language, all of that sort of stuff. But I actually, so, so on a, am I giving the best to my coaching clients, you know, right down to a one-to-one level? I think that has been helpful, but we all know a coach can coach anybody, but I do think it has helped. But actually the game changer in my business and
actually when I seen the exponential growth was when I rebranded as Fearless Foodies and going all out, I am about the food industry, is that that is what I bring is the expertise. I'm not just coming into your business saying, you you can use this generic leadership model to do X, Y and Z. I can make it applicable because I've been there and I've done the job and I make it relatable and I talk that language.
And I do that in the business, but I also do it, you know, in the actual delivery, but I also do it in my marketing. And that has been the game changer for me. So my, I found the, the, the more I niched, the louder my voice got. So actually, you know, if you're not knee, this is my opinion. If you're not niching, I think you are.
Melissa Hague (07:36.684)
Yeah, absolutely.
Amy Wilkinson (07:41.481)
dampening down your message and making it wishy washy to everyone, the more and more you niche and the person on the other end of the scroll on their phone and it goes, my God, that's me. She's talking to me. God, she really gets it. That was the changing point. And that is the reason people get me in. You know, I ran a workshop yesterday and the woman came, the person that had brought me in.
Melissa Hague (07:52.738)
You're talking. Yeah, you're talking about me.
Amy Wilkinson (08:07.243)
did the intro and that's basically what she said. If you don't follow Amy on LinkedIn, you need to follow her because she just gets it and she talks about all the things and she's completely relatable. I was like, yeah, that's me. But for me, that is my USP that makes me stand out from the crowd. So why wouldn't I niche in it?
Melissa Hague (08:30.638)
Yeah, it's such a, I think it's such an interesting point really about this whole kind of setting up a coaching business thing, right? Because I don't think we need to fix the debate or justify our opinion of niching or not niching. For me, there's something more than that, right? Because there's something about the difference between becoming a coach, learning how to coach, know, learning the skills, the process, all of that stuff.
Amy Wilkinson (08:40.287)
Mm.
Amy Wilkinson (08:47.275)
Mm.
Melissa Hague (08:59.438)
And you're right, the theory of that is we can coach anyone because the more, and sometimes the less we know about the person in front of us, the easier it is for some people to coach, right? But then that's fine. That's over in one box, lovely. But then we wanna set up a coaching business. And whether we like it or not, that means we need to sell and we need to market.
Amy Wilkinson (09:10.251)
Mm.
Melissa Hague (09:28.14)
And for most of us, we're selling and marketing ourselves, which is like just the most icky, uncomfortable thing in the world, right? And so you've got to be able to connect through your marketing, your efforts to be visible. You have to be able to connect with the people that you want to work with.
Amy Wilkinson (09:32.703)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Amy Wilkinson (09:54.014)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (09:54.124)
And of course we do that by, as you say, you know, talking their language, understanding where they're at, understanding the challenges that they face, being able to demonstrate empathy, you know, I get it, it's tough. And so that's in a whole other box almost, right, of skills. And that's where Nixing can help us because if you're saying I can coach anyone, you won't coach anyone.
Amy Wilkinson (10:10.761)
Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (10:14.462)
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, no, because nobody will know you're talking to them. And I think the thing that I realized as well was, and I realized it quite quickly. Like I don't want to do myself a disservice because I did like within six months, I needed help with it. But also in terms of like honing my message, but also that
Melissa Hague (10:22.029)
Mmm.
Amy Wilkinson (10:40.271)
Once I let go of that, I don't want it to be in the food industry. like I don't want to just coach me five years ago. That's what all coaches do kind of thing was going on in my head. Once I let go of that and just went, well actually, if I could just write something that I needed to hear five years ago, then that's really easy. Why not go the easy route and make marketing easier for yourself? And if that is, it's talking in the language of the
you know, your previous career, then that's, you know, that's because one of the things that I think a lot of coaches find really hard and I found, you know, we all find hard is that showing up every single day on social media, whether it's every single day, but every few, you know, a couple of days and relentlessly talking into a, shouting into a void and not hearing anything back and thinking, Oh my God. And just that feeling of rejection every single day. So do it.
Melissa Hague (11:32.526)
voice.
Amy Wilkinson (11:40.755)
in a way that makes it easier for you and niching made it easier for me.
Melissa Hague (11:44.716)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why make it hard? Right? He says it has to be hard. Yeah. And you also, said a really interesting thing. Amy, said, you know, I think the more that you niched, the louder your voice got. And I kind of immediately thought that that's about your, your potential clients, right? The people that you want to help your voice got louder for them. But, but I also wonder about the more you niched, did your voice get
Amy Wilkinson (11:46.931)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (11:57.632)
Mm.
Amy Wilkinson (12:06.837)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (12:13.312)
louder or perhaps clearer to you.
Amy Wilkinson (12:16.811)
Yeah, think, yeah, I think you're right in that. And I think I'm now at a point in the business where, so I niched within the food industry and then I properly niche down to product development teams. So people that come up with the new ideas for products. And that was, that was partly because I used to do that, but actually a lot of the people
that follow me and think that I did that like five minutes ago, it's like 15 years since I did it. But because I talk in that language, they're like, oh, you know, you were doing this. I was thinking, no, I've spent years since I've done that, which shows that the marketing is good. And was that I could see that the greatest need was in there. You know, that I have got, you know, I did do sales and marketing in my job so I can see those opportunities and I could see that the need was great. So I wanted to work with women, more women in product development, all of that.
Melissa Hague (13:07.299)
Mm.
Amy Wilkinson (13:07.369)
So I think that has really helped because I just get niching down to the point of one individual person. So when I am writing a post, I'm usually thinking of a head of development, you know, that's a similar age to me, you know, all of those things like it makes it so much easier to talk to that one person. So therefore it's just, you know, it's, it talks to that person more, but it makes it easier for me.
Melissa Hague (13:20.536)
Mm-hmm.
Amy Wilkinson (13:36.107)
and makes me clearer on what I want to say. But like I say, I'm now at pivotal point where I would like to pivot that a little bit to, you know, because I can see opportunities within other areas of the food industry. I mean, I'll come back on the next series and tell you how that goes, because I'm not really sure what I'm going to do about that.
Melissa Hague (13:45.026)
Hmm.
Melissa Hague (13:57.044)
other thing, that's such an important point, because I think sometimes the resistance around, I actually I know that for me, my initial resistance around, you know, doing anything around niching was that, you know, I don't want to put myself in a box, I don't, you know, I don't want to only do that, because I do all these other cool things, too, I don't want to just do that. And, and realizing that, you know, when you niche, that doesn't mean that niche is set in stone, right? It's not
Amy Wilkinson (14:12.479)
Mm.
Amy Wilkinson (14:25.659)
No, it can move. Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa Hague (14:26.894)
Exactly, it'll evolve, you'll pivot, mean, mine's completely pivoted, completely different niche that I focus on now in terms of building my business than I did, you when I first started. So kind of letting go of I've got to hold really tightly to this forever until the day that I either, you know, retire or die, I've got, this is all I'm ever going to do. It's just not like that, right?
Amy Wilkinson (14:48.927)
Yeah.
No, and I think that's why people resist because they think, because also I think, you know, a lot of us have come out of corporate and we've been in these guidelines and other people have been telling us what to do. And now we're like, no, I want to be able to do what I want to do when I want to do it. You know, that's part of the reason for having your own business. But you can do that. It's just if you try to do all of that at once and talk to everybody at once, nobody's going to hear you. So it's, you know, like, but
It can also paralyze you as well. So actually just pick a niche and then give it a good go for a good amount of time and let it evolve over time. Like mine is not the same, exactly the same ideal client that I stuck picked on day one. It has evolved partly as I've got more confident. So in my head, that person's got more senior because I feel like I'm worthy of coaching somebody more senior, you know, so.
Melissa Hague (15:29.965)
Yeah.
No.
Melissa Hague (15:46.132)
Interesting. Isn't that interesting? Yeah, so as our confidence develops, and as we we take those kind of small acts, make those small acts of courage, step into our courage a little bit, we build that confidence and I think, well, actually, I could try this because nothing bad happened the first time, let me try this now and see what happens. Gradually, that kind of confidence grows, and the more courageous that we are, right.
Amy Wilkinson (15:49.962)
Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (16:06.901)
Mm. Mm.
Melissa Hague (16:13.9)
And I think the other thing I was just thinking then as well, because I thinking about this whole thing around, you know, it needs to be easy. And when you're writing posts or articles or whatever, however you're doing your marketing, it needs to be easy. And it reminded me that my very first attempt at niching that I, as you say, I landed on and then I thought, right, I'm gonna have a good go at this. But it felt really hard. It was really hard.
Amy Wilkinson (16:40.991)
Hmm.
Melissa Hague (16:41.506)
felt like treacle and I resisted and I didn't want to write and I couldn't write and I'd sit with a blank page and I don't know all of that. It was hard, really hard. And, and actually what I realized was there wasn't the right niche for me. It didn't light me up. It didn't. It wasn't where my passion was. So think there's this balance isn't there always between, you know, where is my expertise?
Amy Wilkinson (16:50.068)
Mm, mm.
Amy Wilkinson (17:00.169)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (17:09.376)
where's the need? You know, these people have got to want to want to be coached and want to be want to pay for coaching. Exactly, exactly. But also, what am I passionate about? And what do I care about? And what excites me? What you know, what what what are my values telling me about the kind of work I want to do? what might it being hard was suddenly that little flag that said, maybe this isn't the right niche then because it really shouldn't be this hard.
Amy Wilkinson (17:15.221)
I was going to say and be willing to pay for it. Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (17:21.408)
Hmm.
Amy Wilkinson (17:36.667)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think that values thing, I think is really important in this whole thinking about how you market your business as well. Because for me, like, and I've done, I did my human design recently, which is, you know, like a bit, yeah, you know, it's like astrology type thing, you know, like whether you believe in it or not, it just opens up insights, doesn't it? When you read things and you're like, yeah, that's me.
Melissa Hague (17:38.776)
You know, yeah, definitely.
Melissa Hague (17:56.174)
Yeah, I've heard about this a little bit. Okay.
Melissa Hague (18:04.28)
Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (18:05.639)
and I am a projector and, basically what, what that has reaffirmed for me is the way I market, which is I put content out there and I attract people in, but I do not go and hustle. do not call DM people. You know, I am not a hard sales person and never have been. used to work in sales, but I was never hard sales. I was always about long relationships and actually.
Melissa Hague (18:25.486)
you
Amy Wilkinson (18:34.513)
the other thing that I've, and it's all this self-awareness of yourself in your business. You know, I've got, got my ADHD diagnosis a couple of years ago now and, learned about rejection sensitivity dysphoria, which is basically, you know, you feel rejection on a visceral level. So actually doing hard sales is not good for somebody that feels any of that.
Melissa Hague (18:50.35)
Hmm.
Melissa Hague (18:54.199)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (19:00.939)
Absolutely not.
Amy Wilkinson (19:00.979)
So actually now for me, I don't see it as market marketing. see it as content creation and then, and getting my voice out there and saying what needs to be said, because I think a big part of it for me was believing corporate and being able to call out the bullshit basically in a way that employed people can't. So I see that.
Melissa Hague (19:07.862)
Yeah, nice.
Melissa Hague (19:18.838)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Amy Wilkinson (19:24.049)
My ability, don't seem well, maybe I'm starting to allow myself to see myself as a little bit more like an influencer. don't like the word, but you using my influence to, to, to affect change. That is how I see my marketing now. And then people choose to inbox me and say, can you come in and speak? Can you come and do this training and whatever? Because I just know that if I try to get too salesy, I just make them sick in my mouth.
but also just real awful. And that's the other thing I've done. you know, people listening might be like, well, I'm not in a financial situation to do that yet. But, the more, some of those more salesy posts do have to go out. People needed sort of know what the business is about and stuff. I outsource those now, you know, somebody else writes those posts for me and, and, and schedules them so that I don't have, like, still approve them and it's still make it sure it's my tone and voice and all of that, but I don't have that.
Melissa Hague (20:11.171)
Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (20:23.531)
of, god, did anybody like that post? Well doesn't matter because I don't even really think about whether it's gone out or not.
Melissa Hague (20:30.094)
Yeah, yeah, I'd this is, I mean, look, we're talking about self awareness there, right? You you know, you because of you know, your level of self awareness, you've done the work, you know yourself, you know, what works for you, the language that will, you know, that will inspire you in the language that will not, you know, and all of that. And I and I think, again, when we think about kind of connection, you know, genuine connection, and people reading your posts and feeling connected to you, it
Amy Wilkinson (20:35.699)
Hmm.
Amy Wilkinson (20:40.523)
Mm.
Amy Wilkinson (20:47.211)
Mm.
Melissa Hague (21:00.032)
in order for that to happen, it has to feel like you. Because I think again, you can read it a mile off where, you know, it's kind of a bit of an awkward salesy post and you're kind of like, okay, that person did not feel comfortable when they wrote that post, right? It sort of shines out of it. Or AI wrote it. Yeah, well, yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah, that's one way of outsourcing, right? For sure. One way, yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (21:03.188)
Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (21:10.155)
Mm.
Amy Wilkinson (21:14.699)
Or AI wrote it.
Amy Wilkinson (21:22.963)
Yeah. Yeah. And I would say, I would say that because I think there can be a bit of snobbery about AI, but I actually think it can be really useful because to get you over those blocks where you're like, I don't know what to say or how to say it, but it's just then making sure that you humanize it over the top of that.
Melissa Hague (21:35.852)
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. I am, I'm not anti AI at all. use it and I use it as I like to I call it my thinking partner. sparkly.
Amy Wilkinson (21:50.695)
Mm-hmm. Mine's called Sparky. So we've named together, we named them Spark because it's Spark's idea. Yeah. I said, you know, let's come up with a name for you. Yes.
Melissa Hague (21:56.206)
Lovely, did you ask? Nice!
Melissa Hague (22:04.078)
I'm going to do that. My goodness. I love it. I love that idea. I mean, I say thank you and that's perfect and you're brilliant. I couldn't do this without you. Anyway, let's not go down that route. But I do think there's something really interesting about how we approach it because for me, I will quite often think, oh, I really want to put a post together about this and this and I want to say something about this and...
Amy Wilkinson (22:14.707)
Me too.
Amy Wilkinson (22:25.301)
Mm.
Melissa Hague (22:27.406)
I don't know. And so I chuck that into AI and said, what do you think? And then I go, I don't like that bit. And I would never use that language. That's a horrible, know, like, just like when they use, what's the word that I have a reaction like, it's a game changer. And I'm like, no.
Amy Wilkinson (22:36.587)
Mm-hmm.
Amy Wilkinson (22:45.483)
And rocket emojis and furthermore, like nobody says furthermore, AI, get with the program.
Melissa Hague (22:51.714)
No, absolutely. Yeah, so you still got to make it you, but I think as that thinking partner of, really want to post something about this and I want to say something about that, but I can't quite get it out on the page, can be really helpful, really helpful. And so the other thing I'm curious about, because we're bombarded coaches, Small business owners, we're bombarded with...
Amy Wilkinson (23:01.727)
Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (23:05.065)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Melissa Hague (23:16.482)
business mentors and you know, come on my program and you'll get, you know, six figures by Christmas or, you know, six figures a week or all of that stuff, But I also think that getting help and support when you need it, particularly around kind of the business side of things is also important because it's not something that's necessarily natural for us as coaches. never, some of us, I know I had...
Amy Wilkinson (23:18.411)
you
Amy Wilkinson (23:23.507)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa Hague (23:43.712)
I'd never done anything like sales and marketing in the past, or certainly not from a small business perspective, as opposed to kind of a corporate organization. very different. And, I think it's very easy for us to, well, I find it again, I'll make a generalization. I find it easy to separate out the ones that I feel are perhaps genuine or could be helpful. And the ones that frankly are going to, you know, take huge amounts of money from me and make no money in my business.
Amy Wilkinson (23:46.603)
Mm.
Amy Wilkinson (23:52.307)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Melissa Hague (24:13.388)
making six figures by Christmas is, know, yeah, go away. I, you know, I'm not buying any of that. So I get that, but there's also something about how do you, how do you select the right people? How do you find the right people or the right organizations or whatever to support you with the business of building a business? Right. And so, you know, what, what's been your approach with kind of reaching out, outsourcing you mentioned, but getting help, right? How do you do that?
Amy Wilkinson (24:16.383)
Mm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (24:34.441)
Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (24:40.939)
Yeah. Yeah. It's, it is hard because I think particularly early on in your business, when there's not a lot of cash coming in, you're thinking, I can't spend on this, that and the other. But actually, if I look back and if I think about, you know, how I've been courageous at points in my business, it has been investing in things before I could really properly afford them. Like I had a bit of a buffer because I had redundancy money. But
I think, I mean, there is, there's so much out there, isn't there? And I think if I think right back, I spent a lot of time on Instagram. Instagram is not particularly a place to go and find yourself a, know, coaches and whatever, you know, there's, there's so much messaging out there, that hustle messaging that is just too much. think for me, it has to be somebody or, or
you need to feel that element of trust in the same way that you wouldn't just, you know, go and spend a load of money on anything without checking out, you know, whether it was the right thing for you. think there's anything that kind of tries to get you to pay money up front before you've had a conversation with somebody or anything that sounds too good to be true, usually is too good to be true. So that whole six-figure thing.
had a sales and marketing background, but I still found it really hard to market myself. I understood the principles. So actually working out where is your gap in your knowledge. So my gap in my knowledge was not how to identify a client and this, that and the other. Although, you know, it was because I hadn't done it from a small business perspective, like you say, it's not quite a cream cake that I'm selling in the same way as it used to be. But also who are the people?
Melissa Hague (26:15.726)
I'm
Amy Wilkinson (26:39.347)
We need cheerleaders. We need people that you are willing to open up to that are going to help you not just with how you do it, but with the mindset piece of showing up and doing, actually doing the work. So that accountability thing. So for me, I joined the coaching revolution six months into my business.
And I found that very helpful in that I did already know what I was doing, but it was reiterating and it gave me some accountability. I also met Donna, who you've had on the podcast, Hordhiggs there as well. And we are now firm friends and she does a lot of helping me with the strategy of the business. We have built up that trust over the last few years. it's, it's, but along the way I have made mistakes. I have had.
Melissa Hague (27:20.685)
Yes.
Amy Wilkinson (27:36.597)
the odd coach here and there that I've, you know, got sucked in by and sat in the coaching sessions thinking, God, I'm actually quite good at this because this person's really not very good at what they're doing or, you know, they're giving advice or, or, you know, yeah, just not feeling right. So I don't feel like I'm articulating myself very well here, but I think what I'm trying to say is for me as this is because of what
Melissa Hague (27:48.694)
Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (28:05.907)
I've got lot of self-awareness, that feeling of trust and my gut instinct on a person, on the person that you are going to be working with is so important and feeling that connection and not being dazzled by the bright lights of promises. Yeah, they're marketing. And actually part of the reason I was attracted to the culture revolution, for instance, was it was straight talking. was, are not going to get you, you've got to do the hard work.
Melissa Hague (28:21.902)
They're marketing.
Amy Wilkinson (28:35.093)
You know, it was, you're not going to just get a six figure business overnight. And it was calling out all of that. So I was like, yeah, I like this. You know, this is, this is for me. And that's the thing I think, and it isn't for everybody. Don't get me wrong. Like that straight talking can be too much for some people. So actually you've got to find what feels right for you. So I think a lot of what we've, talking about is getting to know yourself in this whole self-awareness thing if your business is so important.
Melissa Hague (28:40.952)
Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (29:04.521)
And therefore not always looking sideways at what everybody else is doing. Cause what everybody else is doing is right. Might be right for them or might look right for them, but isn't what is right for you and your business and the way your brain works and you know, the support you need.
Melissa Hague (29:21.388)
Yeah, absolutely. That cheerleading squad, right, you build your tribe, your trusted advisors, you know, all of that, and that takes time. And I think the thing for me, I mean, I've made lots of mistakes in terms of what I've invested in, terms of kind of business development support. And I've also made some really great calls and gone, whew, how was lucky? Because it was luck, right? But you're right, I think it's learning about what
Amy Wilkinson (29:30.346)
Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (29:43.071)
Mm.
Mm.
Melissa Hague (29:50.35)
what's drawing you in. And the ones where I thought, oh, phew, that's a relief, I chose the right person. It's kind of like, well, it wasn't really luck. You know, I wouldn't call it lucky because actually, you know, it worked, I connected with them. I liked the way that they work. I did my due diligence. I had conversations with them. I didn't part with cash until I'd done my due diligence, know, those kind of things. And there's also something about kind of trusting your gut and your intuition. But I also think for me, the biggest kind of
Amy Wilkinson (29:52.011)
Mm.
Amy Wilkinson (29:58.763)
Mm.
Amy Wilkinson (30:11.153)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (30:21.294)
Yeah, the biggest revelation for me, think I worked with a business mentor early on spent a fair chunk of change with her. And whilst it didn't get the kind of return financial return on investment in terms of clients into my business, boy, did I learn a lot. I learned a lot, you know, like things that if you've been in a marketing background, you
Amy Wilkinson (30:45.044)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa Hague (30:49.742)
you know what a funnel is and you know all that kind of you know in client acquisition I was like okay this is like a whole new world um you know so I learned all of that stuff yeah
Amy Wilkinson (30:52.011)
Mm.
Amy Wilkinson (30:57.053)
Yeah, Well, and mailing lists and all of that's like it. So I, yes, I'd worked in marketing, but it's very different doing stuff for big supermarkets and stuff. Like I didn't know all of that stuff either. I wasn't classically trained. So, you know, and I think about all of the, and this is where I do think it is sometimes worth that investment of someone that's a little bit ahead of you. Cause if I look back and it was fine, cause it was locked down, didn't need much money at the time, but that first year.
Melissa Hague (31:04.863)
in yourself.
Amy Wilkinson (31:23.539)
I spent a lot of time fanning around trying to do things for free from a YouTube video, when actually I could have just outsourced it and got somebody else to do it or teach me how to do it a lot quicker.
Melissa Hague (31:29.879)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (31:36.206)
Absolutely. And I think where I got to a point with this particular mentor where I was almost like, it was literally a light bulb moment. I did some work with her and then I was like, actually, do you know what? The business that she thinks I should build is not the business I want. Now, there was nothing wrong with the business she thought I could or should build, right? It was a wonderful idea, but it wasn't the business I wanted.
Amy Wilkinson (31:55.817)
Mmm.
Amy Wilkinson (32:04.971)
Mm.
Melissa Hague (32:05.432)
And you know what? I'm hugely grateful to her because I learned that, right? I mean, go, know what, that's actually, that's not the business I want. I want something different to that. So I think also when you're thinking about, you know, getting help, you know, outsourcing or, you know, learning about the business of building a business, well, what business is it that you want? Do you know yet, right? Do you know yet? And if you don't know, that's okay.
Amy Wilkinson (32:10.708)
Yeah, yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (32:15.092)
Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (32:29.695)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (32:34.008)
But you may have to invest a bit of, well, you're certainly going to have to invest some time and some thinking space, maybe even some money, finding out what is the business that you actually want, what's that you're trying to create for yourself and your family.
Amy Wilkinson (32:38.411)
Mm.
Amy Wilkinson (32:46.959)
Yeah. And also that that might change over time because when I set up, I just wanted to be able to pay my mortgage and that was it. And I was almost like, I don't need to earn as much money as like, cause money's like a, you know, as a coach, can't admit that we actually want to get paid for what we do. You know, we're all heart centered and all of that. No, I do want to get paid for what I do.
Melissa Hague (33:05.782)
Yeah, my goodness, thanks.
Amy Wilkinson (33:13.075)
you know, I wanted to keep it small. because I would just, you know, it was for me, it was about the freedom, the time freedom, you know, I'd had years of chronic illness. I wanted to be able to manage that better. That was, that was what it was about. And then over time, and actually it was at your, coaches gathering, I, where I decided whether I was going to go big or go home. And I decided to go big and go home. you know, get,
Melissa Hague (33:39.297)
Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (33:41.615)
That changed over time. So it's actually having those check-ins with yourself and saying, you know, is the business that, because I'm five years in now, it is a different business to what I thought I wanted. And that's okay. But keep having those check-ins and actually having coaches, mentors, support to help you with that, particularly if you are somebody that has to talk this stuff out loud, which I do, has been really pivotal in that. So last year I had an ADHD coach.
Melissa Hague (33:54.21)
Yeah. Yay.
Amy Wilkinson (34:11.369)
which, know, so that was all a new revelation for me. And actually that's helped me with acceptance of that. might want to run my business differently to other people, because my brain is different to other people. And, you know, that I can still earn the money that I want to earn and have the house that I want to have and not have to flog myself into the ground because, you know, I've got all these beliefs from my corporate life that you have to work hard and, you know, it's the only way to make money.
Melissa Hague (34:23.288)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (34:39.212)
Yes! Yes, yes!
Amy Wilkinson (34:40.955)
you know, so I think as a coach, you're constantly doing the work anyway, aren't you? But I think you have to do the work. The work is not just about you and your ability to be a good coach. It's to be a good business owner as well.
Melissa Hague (34:57.132)
Yeah, absolutely. And that's different. And trying to bring those two things together is, for me, that's the journey because they don't quite kind of fit together naturally. And for me, they're still in two different boxes, right? I run a business, and I'm also a coach and a facilitator. They're two different things. But trying to mould those together, right, so that it feels me.
Amy Wilkinson (35:10.859)
Mm.
Amy Wilkinson (35:16.555)
Mmm.
Melissa Hague (35:24.782)
And that's so important, right? For me, when I talk about working with coaches, I'm like, I want you to have a coaching practice and a coaching business that feels like you, that feels like home, that doesn't feel like it's something that somebody told you you should have. I don't want anyone to have that. I don't want that in my life. I'm like, you know, you want a business that feels like you, it's so important.
Amy Wilkinson (35:33.247)
Mm.
Amy Wilkinson (35:38.163)
Yes, yes.
No. No.
Amy Wilkinson (35:48.179)
Yeah, yeah.
Melissa Hague (35:50.286)
I'm also kind of, I'm thinking kind of courage, right? I'm coming back to courage because...
Amy Wilkinson (35:54.302)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa Hague (35:56.866)
boy, is it courageous? Do you, you you need courage every day, not only to do the work of the coach, but to do the business stuff, right? And it is really all about taking courageous action. And one of the things that I really notice is people will say to me, and you may know, because you're five years in, we're about the same sort of timeframes into our business. One of the things that I notice people will say to me, and obviously it'd be largely because I talk about it.
Amy Wilkinson (36:03.871)
Mm-hmm.
Amy Wilkinson (36:08.733)
Mm-hmm.
Amy Wilkinson (36:20.948)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (36:26.36)
courage a lot, but they'll say, Melissa, you're, you know, you're so courageous. Because I don't know, like when I started the podcast, my gosh, you're so courageous. And I'm like, don't feel courageous. I'm terrified all the blinking time, right? And, know, I'm full of self doubt and in a critic and all that, I don't feel courageous. And, and so I'm always really conscious that, you know, other people can see the courage in me, but I don't necessarily see it myself. So I
Amy Wilkinson (36:34.443)
I feel terrified.
Amy Wilkinson (36:43.733)
Mm-hmm.
Amy Wilkinson (36:53.652)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (36:55.374)
I do try and work hard sometimes to really notice it and be, do you know what, that thing I just did was courageous. Cause I think otherwise we just, it just passes us by and we forget, you know.
Amy Wilkinson (37:04.779)
Yeah. Well, and it is taking those moments, isn't it, to reflect on those things. And that's why I'm a big advocate for a Tidalist, that whole like, are the things that you've achieved? And I was thinking about it yesterday, actually, I was running a workshop and I was doing, I was talking about comfort zones and stretch zones and whatever. And I was talking about the first time I did a video on social media five years ago, 56 takes it took to do it.
Melissa Hague (37:13.225)
Yeah!
Melissa Hague (37:31.149)
Right.
Amy Wilkinson (37:31.167)
Whereas now I'll just pick up my phone and do it. And actually something that was totally in my panic zone is now in my comfort zone. And that's how you build courage, isn't it? And I get asked though, you you're the courageous coach, I'm the fearless foodie. So people like make these assumptions because of the names of our businesses. But actually, you know, people will say to me about, well, you must have no fear then if it's fearless foodies. I'm like, no.
The fearless means feel the fear and do it anyway. It's not, we, none of us are ever fearless. None of us are always feeling courageous. It's just that you feel the doubt and you do it anyway. And it's can be tiring, right?
Melissa Hague (38:09.966)
Absolutely.
can be. do you know what I mean? Some days I'm like, I am, I get like a, and this is a term for an ages, but I get a vulnerability hangover sometimes, right? Like just that whole kind of, I've spent some time in the fear and the doubt and the vulnerability and the scarcity and all of that. And I think I am, I'm knackered. I'm done, right? It's a real proper hangover from it. And that's why I think it's important to recognize when we're being courageous, because alongside courage comes all of that other stuff.
Amy Wilkinson (38:22.623)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Amy Wilkinson (38:32.981)
Mm.
Melissa Hague (38:43.214)
And we've got to, you know, we've got to take care of ourselves when we're in those spaces of fear and doubt and scarcity and comparison, all of that, right? Definitely. And I mean, I was tempted, the question that popped into my head, Amy, was what's the most courageous thing you've ever done in your business, do you think, in the last five years? And I was like, oh my goodness, that's a really rubbish question. I was doing bit of a judgment on the question that popped into my head, because I'm like, do you know what?
Amy Wilkinson (38:43.294)
Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (38:50.385)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (39:06.76)
you
Melissa Hague (39:11.788)
There must be loads, there's loads, right? There's loads of big stuff, there's loads of small stuff, there'll be stuff in the middle. But I'm wondering, so I might shift my question little bit, because I'm wondering what's the most courageous action that you remember that's like a really clear memory for you in setting up your business and growing it as you have?
Amy Wilkinson (39:21.546)
Okay.
Amy Wilkinson (39:34.739)
I think...
Actually, this is really early on and it was, and it probably was a pivotal part of me, of me ending up niching as I did. So it was before it was Fearless Foodies, before I was niching in Fearless Foodies or anything, I was in a mastermind, we called it. It was for mums on a WhatsApp group. But it was a pandemic and it was for small business owners locally. And one of them had a Facebook group.
who then it was for parents of autistic children. But she asked me to, I told them the story. I didn't know this one very well. I told her my burnout story and she asked me to come and speak about burnout in the Facebook group. And I did it. And that was the point. That was the first time I'd spoken publicly. And it was to like six women in a tiny little Zoom room. But they were just like, my God, that is amazing.
I didn't, you know, I was being vulnerable and it made a difference to those six women that were on that call. And that was kind of the turning point of me going, actually, if I can admit this stuff publicly and say, not pretending to be perfect and polished, but tell people that, you know, I've messed up in my life. and
do that, I then sort of transfer that onto my own social media. And that's when my momentum started to happen because people are like, she's actually telling the truth. She's not like just putting inspirational quotes out there. She's got a bit of substance to her. And then say, probably two years later, I was stood on a stage at Asda head office in front of 300 people telling that same story. And that, you know, that was a really, you know, it was like, if I'd not been brave enough in that
Melissa Hague (41:12.938)
Yes.
Amy Wilkinson (41:29.867)
you know, small moment, I don't know that I would have ended up where I am. So I didn't know that until you just asked me that question. I feel a bit emotional.
Melissa Hague (41:36.462)
So interesting. yeah, but it, there's a, there is real connection and emotion in that because you get the whole kind of, that was the chain of events, right? That it leads you to. And I think one of the things that I've learned is that you never know where something's going to lead or where your courage is going to take you to, right?
Amy Wilkinson (41:49.536)
Mm.
Amy Wilkinson (41:58.155)
Mm.
Amy Wilkinson (42:02.987)
Mm.
Melissa Hague (42:03.118)
And your courage might have only ever taken you to those six women and you talking about burnout. It's still courageous action, right? But then that whole kind of cascade of, then, so now I can do this. Okay. Ooh, I've done that. Okay. Okay. Let me try this. And all of that effect. then you get to, okay, now I'm sitting in front of 300 people. You know, it's...
Amy Wilkinson (42:10.569)
Yeah. Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (42:16.063)
Mm.
Amy Wilkinson (42:20.021)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (42:27.584)
That's what courage is. That's what courage enables us to do, right? When we start with those small actions, it's not going from, right, you know, I need to, I need to make that big step. I need to, you know, get in touch with Asta and tell them I'm going to start three, that's my first step, right? It's what, you know, that, kind of what's the first thing and all the time we're building towards that in our businesses, right? And, I think there's something about
Amy Wilkinson (42:29.451)
Mm.
Amy Wilkinson (42:48.094)
Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (42:52.907)
Mm.
Melissa Hague (42:57.39)
also, you know, just as easily that talk to those, you know, six women, you might have thought, oh, no, then that's not, that's not what I would know. Okay. All right. That's not for me. That's not really what I to talk about. And, and, and gone off and tried something else. So even if things don't, you know, you make a courageous action, you take a courageous step and it doesn't quite take you where you want it to, where you feel comfortable, your hope, you hope it will, it will lead you to whatever.
Amy Wilkinson (43:05.215)
Yeah, yeah, that's not for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Melissa Hague (43:26.422)
The next one is.
Amy Wilkinson (43:26.535)
Yeah, yeah. And there definitely are things that I have done where I've had that feeling and I'm like, no, this is not what I want to do. You know, like I've been not talked into, but you know, somebody's come and said, you know, early on in the business, people would say, can you do this? And it might've been a little bit like almost like consulting as well in my old world. And I'll just do it, you know, cause I can and I'm going to get some cash in and then I'd get to the end of it and be like, this isn't what I want to do. This isn't, you know.
Melissa Hague (43:34.382)
and
Amy Wilkinson (43:55.945)
But you learn from that and it's fine.
Melissa Hague (43:58.702)
Yeah, absolutely. And I tell you the other thing that you reminded me of as well, because earlier on, you said something which I think was so important, I thought I'm going to make a mental note of that. this, what I think you said, and you recognise is that, you know, coaches who are listening to this won't necessarily be in the position yet where they're able to make choices and say no to things, you know, from a financial perspective, they may not be there yet. And I think
Amy Wilkinson (44:20.551)
Mm. Mm. Yeah.
Melissa Hague (44:24.876)
that there's something for me about as well in the early stages, I lent on all of my, all of my skills, right, all of my past knowledge and skills. So doing things that, you know, I left employed world, I left my job because, and I don't know, I've shared this on the podcast before, I loved my employed life. I loved the company I worked for. I loved the people. And I don't mean, I just loved it. No, no, I really loved it. It was a huge part of my life.
Amy Wilkinson (44:32.075)
Mm.
Amy Wilkinson (44:51.475)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (44:54.542)
And luckily I still get to do some work with them, which is a blessing for me. But there's something for me where I got to the point where I was like, I'm doing, you know, 60 % of the work that I don't really want to do and 40 % of the work that I love. And I was like, I don't know, I want to do 100 % of the work that I love. I don't want to do this 60 % anymore. So
Amy Wilkinson (44:58.346)
Mmm.
Amy Wilkinson (45:11.721)
Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (45:15.189)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Melissa Hague (45:18.638)
And I can't do that in this setting. So I'm going to go where I'm going to run a business and I'm going to do 100 % of the things I love. And then realize that no, was still going initially in those first few years, I am still going to do 60 % of the work. I'm just like, Oh, really? I've been I don't want to do this anymore, because I needed the money. And so what I used to do was I would think, Oh, that's not the work I want to do. I've just delivered a project or done a, I don't know.
Amy Wilkinson (45:25.841)
Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (45:34.495)
Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Melissa Hague (45:47.15)
delegation skills course or time management. This is not where I'm at, right? Doing that 20 years ago. Enough. But anyway, I would do it. And I think that's not where I want to be. And then the next time I was able to do something that I wanted to do, I don't know, lying on a sunny beach somewhere or doing something cool with my dogs or my husband, I was like, yeah, that's, I didn't want to do that, but that's, this is what I get to do as a result of that.
Amy Wilkinson (45:49.031)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Amy Wilkinson (46:05.802)
Yep.
Amy Wilkinson (46:10.109)
Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (46:14.215)
Yeah, yeah.
Melissa Hague (46:14.636)
Now, now I'm in a position where I can say no to the that stuff, don't, and I am largely doing 100 % of the work that I love. But I think it's so important to remember because, yes, it might not be the work yet that you love, and you're having to do stuff just because you need to bring some money in. But what is that giving you? You know, what what are you able to do as a result of that?
Amy Wilkinson (46:17.757)
Yeah, yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (46:27.467)
Mm.
Amy Wilkinson (46:33.607)
Yeah. And, this is where some gurus might tell you to not go after that work that, that are in a privileged position that like, well, if that doesn't align, I'm like, yes, you've got that North star that you are going to get to a hundred percent of everything you do is aligned with where you want to be. But the reality is you need, you know, if you think of hierarchy of needs, you need a roof over your head. You need to be able to eat, you know, you need basic things. So actually.
Melissa Hague (46:43.64)
Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (47:02.623)
there is no shame in, you know, I'll say to a lot of, cause I get a lot of people approaching me now about, you know, becoming a coach or whatever. And I will say, you know, if you can do it as a side hustle to start with, that's, you know, that is, you know, and you can phase it in or you can keep another income stream, do that. Because if the alternative is you go, you know, you give it all up and say, I'm only going to take on coaching work.
then you're much more likely to fail because you're going to have to at some point turn around and go, I need to get a job because I've got to pay the mortgage.
Melissa Hague (47:34.53)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So yeah, I just like you said, there's no shame in it. I think we have to be so careful. Right. When we're talking sat here, both of us five years in kind of going, we're kind of, you know, well, I'm kind of there, you're going to pivot again, I'm thinking, still got a little way to go. But we're not a year in or we're not on the cusp of starting. And as you say, you to kind of remember that sometimes, right?
Amy Wilkinson (47:44.299)
Mm.
Amy Wilkinson (47:52.523)
Mm.
Amy Wilkinson (47:57.459)
Yeah. And the people see that success, don't they? The overnight success and you're like, and I've been having that conversation with a couple of new coaches recently and just, you know, like, just so you know, there were a lot of tears along the way. There's been a lot of, I'm going to Jack it all in. There's been a lot of, this isn't for me. You know, it isn't, it isn't easy. It's not easy running your own business, but it is rewarding in lots and lots of different ways.
Melissa Hague (48:16.312)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (48:24.75)
And the potential is there right whether you choose to grab that potential or not that's there's always the choice right that you know choose courage or you choose comfort, but you can't have both and and you know, I'm all about choosing the courage That's what I'm here banging the drum about but you know what sometimes it's okay to choose the comfort 100 % right 100 % and so yeah, really important to yeah, not beat yourself up and not assume that
Amy Wilkinson (48:26.889)
Mm.
Amy Wilkinson (48:33.993)
Yeah. Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (48:42.399)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Melissa Hague (48:52.782)
Well, I know probably you and I, as I say, five years. And it's not like we've been business owners for decades, is it? But, you know, five years in, I still choose comfort sometimes. think, oh, do know what? Yeah, I'll do it because it's easy money and I can just get it done and it'll be fine. So, yeah, nothing wrong with a bit of comfort occasionally, just as long as it's balanced out a bit of courage, right? Yeah. Brilliant. Brilliant. So I'm really looking forward to what the next...
Amy Wilkinson (49:07.882)
Mm.
No, exactly. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.
Melissa Hague (49:20.056)
courageous action is going to be, what the next pivot is.
Amy Wilkinson (49:21.739)
Who knows? knows? All us Fearless Foodies coaches are meeting at the end of this month. Maybe there'll be some ideas sparked there. Who knows?
Melissa Hague (49:31.182)
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that there's something about the the just be saying curious about what that might be or could be. But I love the fact that you you're owning your space now, right? Because you said earlier on about, know, now I'm talking about coaching senior people, where's the beginning? I was like, Oh, no, can't not see it in that. But so, you know, you're really owning beginning to own this is my space. And I and I deserve to be here. I should be.
Amy Wilkinson (49:40.885)
Mm-hmm.
Amy Wilkinson (49:54.699)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. And I think there's something for me in that about recognizing that leadership is not necessarily about level of seniority. You know, I know now that I am seen by others as a leader in my industry and I've just got to learn to own that and not go, well, that's just a bit weird, isn't it? That's what's actually going on in my head.
Melissa Hague (50:23.374)
Yeah, this is a bit awkward. I feel a bit awkward. Yes, absolutely. And you don't and the thing that I have to come back to with Fearless Foodies, right, is that it's not just a business, it's a movement. And that's such a such an important part of the work that you're doing. So, well, Amy, thank you. Thank you for coming back. First of all.
Amy Wilkinson (50:37.493)
Yeah.
Amy Wilkinson (50:42.815)
Mmm.
Amy Wilkinson (50:47.947)
Thank you for having me. I love, well, I love podcasting anyway, because I have a podcast, but I also just love our conversations, Melissa. So thank you.
Melissa Hague (50:55.82)
Yeah, it's so good to just talk about the business stuff. So I really appreciate you opening up about your own journey. and, and yeah, good to see you. And hopefully, who knows, perhaps you'll be back for season three, if there is a season three, we'll see.
Amy Wilkinson (50:59.839)
Mm.
Amy Wilkinson (51:08.875)
Who knows? Oh, there so will be. Thank you. All right. Thank you. Bye.
Melissa Hague (51:13.73)
Jamie, thank you so much. Take care. Bye.