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This podcast exists to strengthen churches by resourcing, inspiring, and creating disciple-makers! Discipleship is a life-long process by which a follower of Jesus Christ grows toward Christ-likeness and multiplies the experience. Each week we will broadcast new episodes relevant to your ministry and replicating discipleship.
[0:00] Welcome to the Georgia Baptist Discipleship Podcast.
[0:03] I'm Scott Sullivan, Discipleship Catalyst.
[0:05] Our team exists to strengthen churches in the area of discipleship.
[0:10] We are developing four incredible opportunities to serve local church leaders.
[0:14] First, a brand new resource called Formed, a Discipleship Culture Blueprint.
[0:20] This resource will be shared regionally to help local church leaders create a culture of multiplying disciples.
[0:28] Next, we'll be launching men's ministry cohorts.
[0:31] Our team plans to connect and equip men's ministry leaders across Georgia to reach, connect, and launch men to impact the world.
[0:40] Our team will also be running regional discipleship leader cohorts to equip and mobilize discipleship leaders in each region of the state.
[0:49] Finally, the SPARK Conference.
[0:51] SPARK is our total church equipping event for lay leaders.
[0:54] We trained over 4,100 people in 2025.
[0:58] All six locations are built for 2026, and I hope you will attend a SPARK event in your region and bring your lay leaders.
[1:07] You can get more information on SPARK dates keynotes breakouts and locations by going to thesparkconference Now let join today discussion Welcome John Spencer How are you buddy I am doing good Scott Good to be on
[1:23] my friend. Awesome. Well, John's the discipleship team leader and pastoral guy at Sherwood Church
[1:31] in Albany. Man, we're glad to have you on. And John, tell us a little bit about family and how
[1:35] long you been there at Sherwood? And I have been here for 26 years. I have a wife who I have five
[1:43] children with, but none at home. And so we have five grandkids at this point. So my life is church
[1:49] and traveling to see grandkids right now. So good time. That's awesome. Well, man, we're glad that
[1:55] God's doing a great work in your family, five kids. You're in a whole new season of life. And
[2:00] And now with Paul coming on as pastor on the backside of Michael Catt, just incredible, two incredible men of God and leaders there at Sherwood.
[2:09] Really just a beautiful time.
[2:10] And I enjoy watching what's happening there and learning from you guys because it is a very distinct culture that you're building that is helping the church to thrive.
[2:21] Yeah.
[2:21] it's been fun watching
[2:22] just Paul
[2:24] as he came on into a culture that Michael had built for 31 years and then began to shift that in the last five years And again not a very different culture but just one that suits his discipleship style
[2:36] And so it's been kind of fun to be a part of that, too.
[2:39] And really, that's what we're talking about.
[2:41] We're talking about a discipleship culture that will help us to thrive.
[2:45] And that's what we're building.
[2:46] Of course, this is the first of four episodes where we will be talking about formed a discipleship culture blueprint.
[2:53] So this blueprint has been two years in the making.
[2:56] And just a shout out to Matthew Gibbs, Ray Sullivan, PJ Dunn, who've invested countless hours into the development of this piece.
[3:05] And so thank you guys for your hard work as we launch it.
[3:09] And now, leaders, I want you to think with me.
[3:11] Have you ever found yourself asking a question like, how can I reach new people?
[3:16] What do I need to do to connect and retain people better?
[3:19] Why can't we seem to make multiplying disciples?
[3:23] Or maybe you've asked something like, is there a better way to make disciples than what we're doing?
[3:27] Because what we're doing just doesn't seem to be working, right?
[3:30] You play the comparison game and you look at other people and what they're doing.
[3:34] Well maybe it time to evaluate and begin creating what we call a culture of discipleship or disciple making that helps make multiplying disciples Well I fired up that you listening that you watching if you seeing this on YouTube
[3:50] And I'm going to start with this statement,
[3:51] because, John, I was speaking at a disciple making summit this week.
[3:55] I was talking to a guy, and he was like,
[3:57] yeah, man, I'm hoping that we're going to reach that next generation
[4:00] this coming year, because we haven't done so good in the bad.
[4:03] And I was like, hey, wait a minute.
[4:05] You're hoping that you're going to?
[4:06] I said, bro, I hope so ain't a strategy.
[4:09] Like it might be a good momentum builder.
[4:12] Hope may be a good energy stimulator, but it's not a strategy.
[4:16] So we want hope.
[4:18] We want to lean into hope, but not as a strategy.
[4:20] What we're advocating is have a plan.
[4:24] Now, leaders, I want you to hear me because we can't keep continuing to run the same play
[4:29] if that play is not helping us to win.
[4:32] And if we fail at anything in this life, John, you and I have talked about this before.
[4:35] If we fail, it can't be in accomplishing the task that the Lord gave us in Matthew 28, which is to go and make disciples.
[4:43] That's the one thing we can't fail in.
[4:45] That's exactly right.
[4:46] This discipleship blueprint was built as a result of dozens upon dozens of pastor roundtables who repeated the same pain point.
[4:56] How do we create a church culture that forms fully church?
[5:00] Praying disciples who thrive.
[5:02] That's what we're all trying to figure out.
[5:04] And really a question on the backside of that kind of brings a deeper realization that many of our pastors, John, they don't have an identifiable plan to make disciples.
[5:15] They're just assuming, and I've lived this life, I've been in this culture, just assuming that if we do church, big church, and we have some element of a Sunday school, a small group, we're going to make disciples.
[5:26] The truth is my lifetime has shown that that's an inadequate plan in and of itself.
[5:31] It can be part of the plan, but it can't be the only plan.
[5:35] That's right.
[5:35] So let me give you listeners the Georgia Baptist discipleship working definition of culture.
[5:43] So culture, we say, is the shared expression of beliefs, values, and rhythms that define an organization's identity.
[5:52] Right? The shared expression of beliefs, values, and rhythms that define an organization's identity.
[5:59] A guy named Seth Godin, leadership guru, he says it this way, John.
[6:03] Culture is how people like us do things like this.
[6:07] Or like I said to you guys back in February when we met I said it this way Mission is what we do Vision is what we see Strategy is how we going to get there how we going to win But culture is how it feels
[6:22] And this is an important piece that we are leaning into as a team.
[6:26] Now, leaders, let me give you three questions that I think every leader needs to ask and work through in the next 12 months.
[6:33] If you want to be a disciple-making church, here's the first.
[6:36] Do we have a culture of discipleship, disciple making, and is it working?
[6:41] Here's the second.
[6:43] Do you have a definition of a biblical disciple that your people can articulate?
[6:48] Now, if you're assuming that they know and you've not taught them that,
[6:51] you've not defined it or given marks of it,
[6:53] you're going to be surprised at what they would say to that answer.
[6:56] Here's the third one.
[6:58] Does the culture and success of ministry depend on you as the leader?
[7:03] This is John.
[7:04] I've been there.
[7:06] It's such an unhealthy, and I would just caution you leaders, because if everything depends
[7:11] on you, be careful, because one day the Lord just may remove that obstacle from the equation.
[7:17] So here's how our team defines disciple.
[7:21] I get it from 2 Timothy 2, verses 2 through 7.
[7:24] In verse 2 it says and the things that you have heard from me Now check this out Paul talking to Timothy you got four generations He says the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also
[7:37] Four generations, right? So that's why we call it generational discipleship.
[7:41] And then in verse 3 through 7, now catch the context here, because I think Timothy's asking the same questions that all of us are asking at some point.
[7:50] Like, okay, Jesus, I get it.
[7:52] You don't have to keep talking.
[7:53] Like, you don't have to talk me into this or Paul.
[7:56] I understand that I'm supposed to be a disciple.
[7:58] I just don't know what it looks like.
[7:59] So, like, you just get this vision of Paul looking at Timothy and saying,
[8:03] okay, young'un, just sit right here.
[8:05] Let me tell you what it looks like.
[8:06] And then he gives him the idea of a good soldier, of that competing athlete,
[8:11] and that hardworking farmer.
[8:13] Well, we've taken that, and we've created what a disciple.
[8:16] And I'm not going to exegete these leaders, if you're listening or watching here,
[8:20] We will do deeper dive into how we come up with that.
[8:23] We'll also help you come up with your own definition or marks of a disciple.
[8:27] That's part of what we do.
[8:28] But we're going to do that in cohorts.
[8:30] They're in-person cohorts, and they're launching in 2026.
[8:35] So if you like to be a part of that either our discipleship leader cohort or the men ministry director cohorts we going to do that in both of those Just message me Facebook Georgia Baptist Mission Board send a carrier pigeon send some smoke signals do whatever you got to do but find a way to get in contact with me because we want you in those cohorts It
[8:54] literally is the inner circle of what we do for Georgia Baptist discipleship. So as we move forward,
[8:59] let me just give you the definition that we use. It's a disciple is a committed, passionate follower
[9:05] of Jesus Christ. So it's committed like a soldier, passionate like an athlete, faithfully follows
[9:11] through like a farmer. Now, John, you guys have some element of a definition or a working model
[9:19] of what a disciple is there at Sherwood. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
[9:23] Yeah. So, and again, you know, what I love about scripture is even with Paul, there's different,
[9:27] in a sense, different definitions of disciple that all go back to what it really looks like.
[9:31] and so I think we can all
[9:33] come up with a personalized definition
[9:35] for our church. What we've done
[9:37] is we've tried to
[9:39] again, as we think
[9:41] about what we call this is the gospel, it's kind of how
[9:43] we think about getting the gospel out there
[9:45] and training folks in
[9:47] that. You don't outgrow the gospel
[9:50] you're into the gospel and so it's
[9:51] one of those things where it's everywhere
[9:53] you know, our definition
[9:55] of disciple is built around that
[9:58] model and so it's all
[10:00] You know, there's a very easy thing we say around here.
[10:02] We say, no Christ didn't make him known.
[10:04] And it's everywhere.
[10:05] You see that everywhere.
[10:06] Okay.
[10:06] Around that, and I'm going to show it to you in a minute, we have four things.
[10:09] Okay.
[10:10] You would love God, unite with believers, serve the world, and entrust the gospel.
[10:16] Okay.
[10:16] And so again, it's right here.
[10:18] So love God, unite with believers, serve the world, and entrust the gospel.
[10:22] That right there is in almost every classroom I have.
[10:25] It's in our atrium.
[10:26] It's everywhere.
[10:27] This is actually from our new member booklet that we use where we're walking folks through the membership class.
[10:32] So they start with that, and they're inundated with that.
[10:35] It's all over.
[10:35] We want them to understand what that is because, again, if you don't know the target, you're not going to hit it.
[10:41] And so it's a very important piece of what we do around here.
[10:43] Oh, that's gold because what you just told me was you've given what it is, and then that helps you to structure everything that you do.
[10:52] Like you're running that single thread through your, you know,
[10:55] the programming through decision-making.
[10:57] And that is the piece.
[10:59] So friends, like what John just said to you, that's culture.
[11:02] Like John, you're, you, Paul, y'all are creating a culture,
[11:05] but here's what we learned about culture.
[11:06] You either create an intentional culture or that culture develops around you and it unhealthy and you play catch up That right Wake up in the morning and you trying to battle the culture You go to bed at night and you battling the culture So what we trying to tell you friends is we want to help you create a healthy culture right
[11:23] where it's setting the tone and you're not – it's the difference between the thermometer and the thermostat, right,
[11:29] instead of just figuring out what the temperature is.
[11:32] We're trying to help you set the temperature in the church.
[11:35] Now, let me give just a quick snapshot here, John,
[11:38] Like, one of the questions that's going to come from our listeners is going to be this.
[11:42] Why do we need a healthy culture?
[11:44] Like, why does that really matter?
[11:45] Let me give an example of a healthy one that my family experienced when I moved to Georgia.
[11:52] Okay?
[11:52] So let's say you pull into a church parking lot, and immediately you're directed to special parking space for guests.
[12:00] And as you're walking to the front door, before you get to the front door, you're greeted.
[12:05] They talk to you.
[12:06] They figure out that you're a guest and the volunteer then says, okay, well, you have children
[12:11] or whatever.
[12:11] Let me walk you to that next connection point.
[12:13] They introduce you, they answer questions, and then they hand you off to somebody who
[12:18] owns the responsibility to get your children set, to get you to a life group, to get you
[12:23] to worship, to follow up that night.
[12:24] Within 24 hours you get a follow text That what I experienced at North Metro Baptist which is now in Houston Georgia Pastor Frank Cox I call it the art of the handoff
[12:36] One of the things, now here's the deal, John.
[12:38] If you come to visit my church and God's not leading you to my church, man, I'm not trying to pull anything.
[12:44] I'm not trying to pull you in if God's not leading you there.
[12:46] But if God led you there and then you don't join because you had a bad experience or because you felt like a number in an assembly line,
[12:54] rather than being really cared for, then shame on me, right?
[12:58] That could be an unhealthy culture.
[13:00] But like what I experienced was healthy culture,
[13:02] and that's one of the main reasons we actually joined that particular church.
[13:07] So now we know in Matthew 4.19,
[13:10] Jesus lays the foundation for these four elements that we're talking about,
[13:16] the real relationships, transformational teaching,
[13:19] disciple-making environments, and intentional multiplication.
[13:22] And listeners, if you're not sure about the Matthew 4, 19,
[13:26] here's what it says.
[13:27] Jesus said, follow me and I will make you fishers of men.
[13:32] So what we're gonna talk today is about that first part,
[13:34] which is the real relationship aspect.
[13:36] Because when Jesus said, follow me,
[13:39] clearly what John he wasn calling them to a program Hey come to our men breakfast or hey come be a part of the choir And those are all good invitations But the invitation to follow Jesus is a follow me in a relationship not into an organization
[13:55] And that's relational.
[13:57] It's personal.
[13:58] And it's the foundation of our discipleship culture or what I like to call the 2 a.m.
[14:04] kind of connections here.
[14:05] Right now, John, I got the old rebar out.
[14:10] And that is, friends, as we work through this, we'll have an illustration that will help with each of the concepts we're talking about.
[14:17] And I have that rebar because on a piece of rebar, John, I built several houses.
[14:21] And it always amazed me as we would pour that foundation.
[14:25] I talked to those guys about how it was formed and where the strength comes from.
[14:29] And they said, yeah, you know, you can just pour concrete.
[14:31] You can mix it together.
[14:33] And, man, it's strong just like it is.
[14:34] he said but you can't build a house on concrete that doesn't have this rebar tied together
[14:42] inside of that in the middle of that where the concrete builds around it he said that's what
[14:48] gives it the tensile strength to be able to handle it when it's twisting and the winds are blowing and
[14:53] it's being pulled from all different sides and here's the deal churches are the same way i mean we've
[15:00] programs, we got buildings, we got preaching, we got people, but without the intentional tied
[15:05] relationships, which is what we're talking about today, there's just no word enforcement.
[15:10] All right. So let me close my intro to this real relationships piece and then so I can jump in
[15:15] with you, John, but I do want to give, let me give just a snapshot of these four. Okay. So here are
[15:19] the four elements or layers of what we're going to be introducing to you guys over these four
[15:25] podcasts. The first one's real relationship. That's what we're doing today. And we're going
[15:29] talk through Chesed. We're going to talk about these deep 2 a.m. kind of relationships. And these
[15:34] are the relationships that never walk away. You can call them at 2 a.m. in the morning and they'll
[15:38] be here. The second is transformational teaching. In this layer, we're going to emphasize things
[15:43] like biblical authority, gospel impact, calling out the called. We're going to talk about measuring
[15:49] life change and measuring those things in personal life and in church that really matter
[15:54] matter the most and I'm going to share how to maximize transformation by teaching what I call
[16:00] the meat of the message. And you'll hear a huge emphasis on training leaders through this.
[16:06] Now the third piece is intentional multiplication. In this element,
[16:10] we going to find that healthy disciple making multiplies churches multiplies groups multiplies disciples multiplies volunteers multiplies gospel ministries That multiplication is a natural byproduct for things and organizations that are alive that are growing
[16:25] And in this session, I'm also going to talk, John, about what I believe is the greatest failure in the Southern Baptist Convention in my lifetime and talk about a solution for that.
[16:34] And then the fourth piece, which is kind of a crown jewel.
[16:37] I love this element because this is that part that really encapsulates all of them is disciple-making environments.
[16:44] And in this fourth element, we're going to talk about the environments that Jesus made disciples.
[16:49] And then, okay, let's talk about current context and what those different environments look like for us.
[16:56] And I can't wait to talk to them about what we call the sweet spot of connection, how that principle works for church health.
[17:02] So, friends, I believe that every question in discipleship that we ask and deal with in the future is going to be, we're going to be there to answer it directly or indirectly through those four elements.
[17:15] So, John, jump in here as we talk about some real relationships.
[17:18] And let's talk about first these 2 a.m. kind of connections, right?
[17:21] These Old Testament hesed concept that deep connection how must a church or what can we do to give our people effective opportunities to build these kind of 2 a friendships Because the truth is they don happen by accident
[17:37] No, and you've got to be very intentional with those. And I think one thing, it starts with
[17:42] this prayer too. God created us for a relationship with him first and foremost. And out of that
[17:49] comes relationship with other people. It's the love God, love others, right? All the law and
[17:53] the prophets are in that. But you've got to be intentional. And so I think it starts with saying,
[17:58] okay, Lord, who is that person I need to plug in with? And I think as leaders in churches,
[18:03] it starts with us. You know, we can tell people what to do, but if they don't see us doing it,
[18:08] then they don't follow through. You know what I'm saying? And so as they see us plugging into folks
[18:13] and challenging them, then, hey, you know, it's messy sometimes. Yes, but step into relationships,
[18:18] be open relationships, ask the Lord to bring somebody into your life who you can begin to
[18:22] disciple. You can begin to, you know, I think the fallacy we have
[18:26] is we have built a culture that thinks that we've got to be able to teach a class
[18:30] before you can disciple somebody. And that's not true. You know,
[18:34] it's kind of walking along together, learning together. And if you know one more
[18:38] thing than somebody else you can help them learn that thing And you both grow together So you know discipleship messy Relationships are messy But man they rewarding too You know what I saying It reminds me of that phrase that we talked about last month
[18:51] that love is inefficient but highly effective.
[18:55] Yeah.
[18:55] Oh, yeah.
[18:56] You know, it really is.
[18:58] And there's no timeline to it.
[19:01] Well, that's good.
[19:02] Now, you know, the schedule you build reveals what you value.
[19:07] Yeah.
[19:07] Right. So are there any elements of what you guys are doing at Sherwood where you're helping to build in time or maybe language to help people think in terms of building these relationships or maybe even part of the schedule?
[19:19] Well, and again, I think from there's not one, I think, setting for that, but it comes from making, you know, what's the expectation?
[19:28] So, you know, from the pulpit every Sunday, Paul is talking about, you know, making disciples and doing those things.
[19:33] He's he's he's very consistent in that they're hearing it from him.
[19:37] And then as it comes down in what we call connect groups, which is essential classes, in our Wednesday night groups with discipleship classes, things like that, all the way down to some, you know, whether we're having a morning prayer group or an afternoon prayer group or just some one-on-one discipleship time with people, it's encouraging them to kind of push that out and see what happens with that.
[19:56] So, you know, I think that as far as providing...
[20:00] time, we're encouraging them to find time.
[20:03] In many cases, because you just have to.
[20:06] With men's groups over the years, I found the best time for us has been about 6 a.m. in the morning.
[20:13] That's early. It's a little bit of a sacrifice to do.
[20:16] But it's before we have to take kids to school.
[20:19] It's before we have to be at work.
[20:20] And we can come and spend an hour together and get into Scripture and pray together and do those kind of things.
[20:25] And so there's some sacrifice involved.
[20:28] But if we're not putting the expectation out there, they won't know.
[20:31] Yeah, that's good.
[20:32] And you mentioned something, John, I think is really important because you talked about Paul speaking it from the pulpit, Paul modeling that.
[20:39] Like you can't create this discipleship, disciple making culture without the pastor being bought in.
[20:46] So, Pastor, if you're listening today, you really are a critical piece.
[20:50] Now, John, I want to take a little different direction on that question.
[20:54] So let's talk about outside the church.
[20:56] What about outside the church?
[20:58] What are there any things that we can do that churches can do to help build?
[21:03] Because we know that building the relationships many times gives us we earn the right to share the gospel with lost people by building relationships And the truth is most of lost people in our ministry communities they don go go to our church That right So we got to get off the campus So are you seeing anything or do you guys do anything to get off the campus
[21:23] So we do.
[21:23] One of the things that I would say too, my background,
[21:27] I spent 12 years in the corporate environment before I came to the ministry.
[21:31] Man, I lost my pool when I came to the church ministry.
[21:35] Our folks that are out there every day, they're in the world,
[21:39] and they have so many, it's a target-rich environment
[21:41] is what I like to think about.
[21:44] And so encouraging them, whether it's something
[21:46] they're doing at work, whether it's,
[21:48] or just figuring out some stuff in the community.
[21:51] You know, hey, are you finding that third place?
[21:53] Are you going to the Y every week to do something?
[21:55] Are you going to Starbucks every week and figuring out?
[21:58] Don't think of those places as just places
[21:59] that I'm going to for me.
[22:01] Think of those places.
[22:02] Okay, Lord, I'm here a lot.
[22:05] How do I do ministry here?
[22:06] And how do I begin to build relationships here
[22:08] so I can pull folks in. And so, and it can start with something as simple as being involved with
[22:12] them in a food drive. You know, there are so many food pantries around that do food drives that,
[22:17] Hey, get your church together, get your Sunday school class together and, and, you know, get in
[22:21] contact with them How can we do this And it real simple to give somebody a box of food love on them and pray for them And who knows that may start a relationship But I think you got to encourage people to get out of the walls and find pieces where they can plug into people
[22:37] One of the unique things we've done is we take some of our guys who are craftsmen, whether it's plumbing, whether it's carpentry, whether it's electrical work, whatever it is.
[22:46] And we try to have classes that we kind of market to the inner city kids where they can learn a trade.
[22:52] Again, not something they're going to do professionally per se, but it gives them an idea of what to do with the hammer.
[22:58] It gives them an idea of how to change a wheel in a car.
[23:01] You know what I'm saying?
[23:02] But again, you do that over several weeks, and you're building relationships with those young men that are impacting those neighborhoods.
[23:11] And so is that going to take a while?
[23:12] Yep, it's going to take a while.
[23:14] But it's worth doing.
[23:16] And so it's been interesting to see some of these young guys respond.
[23:19] And it's funny because some of these real old crossy guys around here that they're the plumbers and the carpenters, and you don't think of them as ministers per se.
[23:28] But, man, they're fired up about it, and they love to go and teach stuff that they can teach them.
[23:32] And then we just add an element of the gospel in there, a teaching time, a time where we can love on them and feed them and do whatever.
[23:40] And if they finish the class we give them a little like if they finish the little mechanic class they get like a little tool set And we got you know people say oh that money It is but you can get folks excited about that
[23:50] What I have found is if you ask businesses to support stuff like that, they'll do it.
[23:54] They'll absolutely do it.
[23:55] And that helps you as a church make connections to make relationships to build disciples.
[24:00] That's a great point.
[24:00] And a lot of those may not even be believers, John, is what I found.
[24:04] They like people or they like looking like they help.
[24:07] That's exactly right.
[24:08] And it's a tax write-off.
[24:10] Yeah.
[24:11] All right, so let's talk about a leadership idea here.
[24:13] Because looking back, I recognized what I call the managerial trap, settling for managing people rather than really shepherding them.
[24:21] So how do we as leaders avoid this ministry leadership trap of managing people more than we shepherd them?
[24:29] How can we try to avoid that, be cautionary?
[24:32] Well, again, I think you've got to see people as people.
[24:35] I think you've got to
[24:38] it's one of those things that when I'm
[24:40] when I'm praying I say
[24:42] God help me see people with your eyes
[24:43] because it's easy
[24:45] it's easy to look past folks, it's easy to look at what you're
[24:48] doing and get so involved that you're not seeing people
[24:50] you know one of my
[24:51] memories I got to go up to
[24:54] Bellevue one time when
[24:55] Adrian Rogers was the pastor there
[24:57] and it's a big church, they have this
[25:00] And I remember he had a very distinctive voice. I remember hearing him walk across the atrium and he had a bunch of high-powered pastors in this room waiting on him to come speak.
[25:11] And so I hear him and he's walking across this atrium, greeting every little lady and everybody he saw across there, calling them by name, loving on them, taking his time, making all these other guys wait because this was his church folks and he was pouring into them.
[25:25] And I think that's what we've got to do. I've always remembered that, that he took time as one, you know, back in that day, he was one of the, you know, premier preachers in the Southern Baptist Convention, if not in the U.S.
[25:36] And here he is talking to everybody across that atrium and hey, they can wait. They can wait.
[25:42] I think that's how we've got to see people is we've got to love folks well and see them as somebody God loved first and foremost.
[25:48] And so it's a matter of we get so busy with our activities sometimes that we forget that there are people that we're servicing or are serving, rather.
[25:58] And so I think just keeping that in mind and keeping that as a matter of prayer.
[26:03] Another thing that Paul says a lot that I like is he says everything God wants to do in you and through you is an overflow of his relationship with you and I think that true that if you know my biggest thing to keep the Lord eyes if you will is keeping myself in tune with him so I can hear his voice
[26:21] if I can stay in tune with him and hear his voice
[26:24] I'm going to shepherd people well
[26:26] and not manage people well
[26:28] if I'm in my flesh I'm going to manage them
[26:30] and so again I think it starts with that vertical
[26:32] relationship with us versus leaders
[26:33] that we've got to never forsake that
[26:36] that's got to be a priority for us
[26:37] so that he can lead through us
[26:39] and we're not trying to lead in our own strength.
[26:41] Love it.
[26:42] Love it, bro.
[26:43] Well, and as we work through these questions,
[26:47] that's a natural tie-in to the next one that I wanted to throw out to you
[26:50] because when we talk about culture and we talk about our people
[26:55] and people feeling not just noted but known, like they feel valued,
[27:01] it changes the culture of the church.
[27:03] Well, one of those culture pieces we know is that not everybody owns the ministry.
[27:09] Not everybody in our church members own the responsibility, right, of connecting people.
[27:14] Sometimes they'll say, well, that's John's job.
[27:16] That's why we paid Scott is to do that.
[27:19] How do we get people or are you guys training people to take responsibility for guests and members so that our people because the reality is you and I can talk culture We can put it on a one We can put it on billboards But until the lay people own it it not going to become culture in our church
[27:37] So how do we train or get people to own that?
[27:39] I think that's got to start from the beginning.
[27:42] One of the things we tell the folks that come through our new members class is, hey, we have a pretty large staff,
[27:49] but we can't minister to everybody that comes in this church.
[27:53] That's your job as a member.
[27:55] Our job is to prepare you and help you and equip you to do that.
[27:57] But your job is to minister.
[27:59] And not that we don't.
[28:00] You know what I'm saying?
[28:01] But, again, if you look at Ephesians 4, our job is to equip the saints for those things.
[28:05] And so, you know, it's one of those things where I think the expectation has got to be there from the very beginning that that's what you're expecting.
[28:11] And you're continually giving ministry away.
[28:13] I think the trap we fall into is sometimes we think we have to do it.
[28:17] And I think we're shortchanging the Holy Spirit when we think that.
[28:20] And I've been guilty of it.
[28:21] You know what I'm saying?
[28:22] I've been guilty of thinking, well, I have to do this.
[28:23] No, no, no.
[28:23] The Holy Spirit can use anybody willing.
[28:27] And so I think the big thing is handing the stick over and saying, okay, I'm going to pass the baton to you, and I want you to do this.
[28:32] And it starts, I think, with little things.
[28:34] One of the most effective Sunday school teachers I ever had they would start with their chairs stacked against the wall And when new folks came in they say hey I want you to do a job for me every Sunday Will you just kind of when I get ready to go will you just kind of unstack these chairs
[28:50] And they'd build them up to where, okay, you know, next it was, hey, I want you to greet guests and bring them to meet me.
[28:56] And then it was, hey, you know, I need a care group leader.
[28:58] I'm going to put you in a care group leader.
[28:59] And before you know it, this person is, you know, teaches Sunday school.
[29:02] And they birthed more classes out of their class by just starting with little jobs and building up with folks
[29:07] So seeing who's going to be faithful in little things and kind of moving on.
[29:10] I think as church staff, that's what we've got to do.
[29:13] Give folks little things and build them up and expect things of them.
[29:17] Really, let's expect the Holy Spirit to be what the Holy Spirit is, and that's an equipper and an empowerer, and to do what he wants to do anyway.
[29:24] And we're just kind of helpers.
[29:26] A great example of what I like to say is that the healthy discipleship culture is owned by everybody, not managed by a few.
[29:34] That's exactly right.
[29:35] And I see that with you guys.
[29:37] Now, let's go to this last question that I have for you.
[29:40] But it really this is the practical side.
[29:42] OK, so let's talk about barriers.
[29:45] You know, let's talk, you know, assess churches, maybe leaders that are looking here.
[29:49] There really are barriers that can grow for new members or new believers and how they connect to the church.
[29:56] Are there any barriers that you see or that you've experienced?
[30:00] had to overcome in your, you know, several decades of ministry?
[30:05] You know, I think there are different barriers.
[30:07] I think we have physical barriers sometimes that you need to think through.
[30:11] Sometimes we get too used to our space, and we don't see it with fresh eyes.
[30:17] And so it's coming and looking at it with fresh eyes.
[30:21] I think sometimes even generationally, we're not thinking, I'll be 60 this year.
[30:27] So I have to get younger people around me to say, OK, how are how is your generation thinking about this so that I'm not putting barriers up because that's how I see things and not how somebody else sees things.
[30:40] And so you have to recognize that, you know, not that there's not wisdom with our folks who have been around a while.
[30:46] There is. And our young folks need to learn some of those things.
[30:48] But at the same time, if it's about throwing open a door, I've got to understand how they see that and how they perceive that.
[30:55] And so it's listening to different generations, I think.
[30:59] And I think, too, just mentally, sometimes you have mental barriers.
[31:04] If you talk about building a culture, if we're not building that culture, that's a barrier right there.
[31:09] If we not thinking about hey the next person that walks up could be somebody that we need to disciple right If we not thinking hey you know what The lost world is not going to come walking in our door
[31:20] We've got to go out there and love them and invite them and bring them because they're a whole more likely to come if we invite them and come with them than if we just sit in our churches and expect them to come.
[31:32] That's a good point, John, because I don't remember what it's like to be lost.
[31:36] Yeah, you don't.
[31:37] I've forgotten that.
[31:38] You know, and I also meant I'd forgotten what it was like to be a guest in a church or like what it was like to have to look for a church.
[31:48] I'm going to plant my family. 31 years. I was the staff member. I knew I was going to church.
[31:53] I was being paid for that. Right. And that's a great point. Any other barriers you would list here?
[32:00] Yeah, to me, I think that's the biggest ones are those.
[32:03] Let me ask you this. And what about unclear next steps?
[32:07] Yeah, I think that's – yes, absolutely.
[32:09] And so I'm glad you brought that up.
[32:10] One of the things I meant to mention earlier was that one of the things that we do have, too, is a leadership pipeline so that folks know what's expected.
[32:18] If I want to move into this level, what's expected?
[32:21] And there's a certain – and it kind of levels the playing field.
[32:25] You don have folks say well I want to do this and they really have no clue what they asking They can look at the pipeline and say okay here where I need to go Here what I need to do so I better start here
[32:37] I think that's very much the truth is we – and I think I've been guilty of that over the years of trying to put somebody in a position and not giving them clear understanding of what that involves.
[32:48] And so it can burn them, and it can burn you down the road as they talk to other people too.
[32:52] So I think that's a very good point, Scott.
[32:54] Let me mention one here, and I'm going to get just one more thought before we close out, because there's one more that I've experienced.
[33:02] I told you I went around to seven different churches, right?
[33:05] Closed or inward-focused groups can be a barrier.
[33:09] Like, I experienced that.
[33:10] I walked into a church, and it was eight minutes sitting in a group, eight minutes before anyone acknowledged that we were even in the room, ever spoke to us.
[33:19] When you're a guest, that's an eternity sitting in a room with 15 people and nobody talking to you or even acknowledging that you're in the room.
[33:27] So any thoughts there on the closed or inward focused group?
[33:30] And I would say that even goes as far as what you're teaching in that group.
[33:34] You know, the one thing that we always have is people read a book and get really excited about a book.
[33:38] And they come in and say we want to teach this book in our group And I like OK let think about another environment to do that in because your group an open group And so if you teaching that book and you get to chapter four and somebody comes in for the first time they going to be lost
[33:51] And again, that's a barrier for them.
[33:53] That's hard to connect in that environment.
[33:56] And so I think even what we're teaching can do that as far as inward focus and things like that.
[34:00] But that's always – we're creatures of comfort.
[34:03] And you get comfortable in a group.
[34:05] And again, I think that goes back to our expectation of you're always reminding folks, look out, look out, look out.
[34:11] Who's next when to come in?
[34:14] Are we loving people well?
[34:16] The other thing I think I tell our new folks is this.
[34:18] We're pretty good at being an inviting church.
[34:20] And I like it when I'm in the grocery store or I'm somewhere and I invite somebody to come see us.
[34:26] And they say, you know what?
[34:26] You're about the third person that's invited me to Sherwood.
[34:28] I love that.
[34:30] That's a great comment.
[34:31] Because it means my people are doing what we've asked them to do.
[34:33] and so i tell folks that we want you to do that we hope you love your church enough that you want
[34:37] to invite folks there but if we're inviting folks there then it's your job when they come in that
[34:41] door to be welcoming as well and be looking out um you know we're we're creatures of habit we sit
[34:46] in about the same seat every sunday you know if it's not the same seat it's close um and you get
[34:51] to know the people around you man if you see somebody new just greet them just talk to them
[34:54] um there's so much power in a smile and we don't know what folks are coming into our church with
[34:58] on sunday morning that's
[35:00] You know, there's so many folks that come in with just burns that we have no clue what they are.
[35:04] And sometimes a smile and a hello and a how are you doing can go so far into taking somebody and kind of drawing them in to where they can meet the Lord and they can become a disciple.
[35:16] And so those are important.
[35:19] And these barriers that we're talking about, particularly this inward focus group, it reminds me of that concept that new groups connect new people better than existing groups.
[35:28] It's just another example.
[35:29] And we'll get to this in intentional multiplication of why we have to be thinking, developing new leaders, developing new groups, developing new ministries, because it's just life giving.
[35:39] Of course, there's a lot of barriers.
[35:41] John, we need to get back on and do a whole episode on barriers because I've got about 12 to 15 of those that would be great for people to think through.
[35:49] But listen, leaders, I'll leave you with a final thought here because a church that's easy to attend but hard to connect to will always struggle to make disciples.
[35:59] So let me encourage you.
[36:01] Bet the farm on relationships because Jesus did.
[36:05] And you can be sure that it will work for you as well John Spencer thanks for joining me today brother and for being a close trusted friend
[36:15] God, thank you, my friend.
[36:17] You're a 2 a.m. guy for me, man.
[36:18] I know we've talked about some stuff over the years,
[36:20] and I appreciate you very much and what you do.
[36:22] So thank you for inviting me, brother.
[36:24] Absolutely.
[36:25] And I want to remind our listeners that we're only able to do this broadcast
[36:28] because you give generously to the cooperative program.
[36:32] And I pray that today's discussion on real relationships with the John Spencer will equip you to think deeply, invest purposefully, and dream big as we make world impacting disciples.
[36:46] Thanks for joining us on the Georgia Baptist Discipleship Podcast.
[36:50] If today's episode encouraged you, would you take a moment to share it on your social media and leave a comment?
[36:56] That helps us serve more leaders across Georgia.
[37:00] If you'd like to stay connected on a deeper level,
[37:03] join our Georgia Baptist Discipleship Facebook group.
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[37:09] on upcoming opportunities, resources, and training events.
[37:13] Thanks again for listening
[37:14] and for all you're doing to serve faithfully
[37:17] and make multiplying disciples.