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Brain-First Coworking Spaces with Amanda Perry
Brain First Workspaces: What Neurodivergent Members Need From Your Space
What a curry, a Bluetooth headset and a missing front door taught one founder about designing coworking spaces that more people can use.
Want the short version by email? Grab the free five-day email course, 5 Mistakes That Hollow Out a Coworking Community and What to Do Instead, at thecoworkingvaluespodcast.com.
Episode Summary
Amanda Perry booked a coworking desk in a hurry, without researching the space. What she got was someone reheating leftover curry beside her, a woman pacing past on an aggressive recruitment call through a Bluetooth headset, and a set of phone booth rules that changed depending on who was asking.
She wrote about it on LinkedIn. Around 165 comments later, Bernie found her, and the conversation that followed is this episode.
Amanda is the founder of Brain First, a platform for neurodivergent founders and leaders, and the author of Brain First Business. Her argument is straightforward.
Plenty of late-diagnosed neurodivergent adults spent decades masking, telling themselves to get over it, and assuming the problem was them. Learning how your brain is wired changes that. You stop treating your needs as a character flaw and start building accommodations around them: an extra ten minutes to travel, checking the route on Google Maps before you leave, needing certainty about where you will sit.
Then the question flips to the space. Most coworking operators are not trying to exclude anyone. They simply have never had the sensory and communication detail written down. A London space Amanda tried to use had no signage on the door. She could not find the entrance, arrived dysregulated, stressed and sweaty, and never went back. A different app, Worksee, takes you right to the door of the workspace, and she rates it for exactly that reason.
The most useful idea in the episode is the drop curb. Designers built kerb cuts for wheelchair users in 1940s America. Now mums with prams, delivery drivers and cyclists rely on them. Design for the edges, and everyone benefits.
Amanda is not asking for a space built for every single brain. She is asking for enough variety: quiet in the morning, energy and conversation in the afternoon. Her survey found that 44% of respondents named hot desking as the thing that stopped them trying coworking, or put them off once they had.
If you run a space and want more people through the door, welcomed, and staying longer, this is a commercial conversation. Start with the detail you have never written down.
Timeline Highlights
- Amanda's hellish coworking experience. Someone reheating leftover curry beside her, a woman pacing on an aggressive recruitment call through a Bluetooth headset, and 20 minutes in the phone booth that stretched if nobody else wanted it.
- Booking without research. Amanda booked the desk in a hurry. The mismatch between what she needed and what she got is the whole problem in miniature.
- The LinkedIn post. Around 165 comments. Bernie found Amanda through it, and the response is its own evidence that this experience is common.
- Late diagnosis and a lifetime of masking. Neurodivergent adults told themselves to get over it long before anyone explained how their brain was wired.
- Accommodations that look small and are not. An extra ten minutes to travel, a route checked on Google Maps, certainty about where you will sit. Knowing your wiring turns these into sensible adjustments.
- Worksee and the missing door. An app that walks you to the workspace door, versus a London space with no signage where Amanda arrived dysregulated, stressed and sweaty, and wrote the space off.
- Clarity of communication is the accommodation. The information a space publishes about arrival, rules and layout does more work than most operators realise.
- The drop curb. Built for wheelchair users in 1940s America, used now by prams, delivery drivers and cyclists. Design for the edges and everyone benefits.
- Not perfection, variety. Quiet in the morning, energy and chat in the afternoon. Enough range that different brains can find their hour.
- The survey's 44%. Respondents who named hot desking as the thing that put them off coworking, or stopped them trying it at all.
- Hot desking and the need for certainty. A colleague supporting neurodivergent students describes absolute chaos and meltdowns. Amanda compares it to being seated mid-room in a restaurant.
- Dean at the Juicy roundtable. A design-led view that good design should be the standard, against Amanda's point that everything around the design makes the difference.
- The commercial case. More people through the door, welcomed, and retained longer.
The Curry, the Headset and the Rule Nobody Wrote Down
Start with the scene, because the scene is the argument. Amanda booked a desk quickly, without checking much. Within a short time she had someone reheating leftover curry next to her, a woman pacing past while running an aggressive recruitment call through a Bluetooth headset, and a phone booth with a 20-minute limit that could stretch (or not) depending on who was asking.
None of that is malice. It is an unmanaged sensory environment plus rules that live in someone's head instead of on a wall. The reader who runs a space should read that list and recognise how much of it would be cheap to fix: where the kitchen reheating happens, where calls are taken, and whether the booth rules are printed or improvised.
Amanda wrote it up on LinkedIn. Around 165 comments came back. If you are an operator wondering whether this matters to enough people to act on, that thread is your answer.
Why Late Diagnosis Changes What People Ask For
Plenty of neurodivergent adults are diagnosed late, after years of assuming the friction was personal. The phrase Amanda uses is people telling themselves to get over it. That habit is hard to unlearn, and it is why so many members never ask for anything.
Diagnosis gives them language.
Once you know how your brain is wired, accommodations stop looking like special treatment. An extra ten minutes to travel is not indulgence; it is the difference between arriving regulated and arriving wrecked. Checking the route in advance is not fussiness. Wanting certainty about where you will sit is not a demand.
The practical consequence for a space is this: the people who need the most clarity are usually the least likely to ask for it. Waiting for members to tell you what they need guarantees you will hear from the confident few.
What a Missing Door Cost, and What a Good Sign Would Have Saved
Amanda names Worksee, an app that takes you right to the workspace door, and praises it for that single function. Then she describes the opposite: a London coworking space with no signage on the entrance. She could not find the door, arrived dysregulated, stressed and sweaty, and will never use that space again.
That is a lost member, a lost referral and a lost review, caused by a sign. Clarity of communication is the cheapest accessibility work available to any operator, and it happens before anyone walks in.
Write down what a first-time visitor needs: the exact entrance, the buzzer, what to do when they arrive, where to sit, how the meeting rooms work, and who to ask when something changes. Put it where they will see it before they travel, not on a sheet at reception.
The Drop Curb Beats Perfection
The drop curb is the strongest idea in the episode. Kerb cuts were designed for wheelchair users in 1940s America, and now mums with prams, delivery drivers and cyclists use them without thinking. Design for the edges and everyone benefits.
That reframes the whole task. You are not being asked to build a space that suits every brain, because nobody can. Amanda's ask is variety: quiet in the morning, energy and chat in the afternoon. Different hours for different needs, published
clearly, so a member can pick their moment.
An operator reading this should hear relief in it. You do not need to rebuild. You need a timetable and a floor plan that tell the truth about what happens when.
The 44% Problem With Hot Desking
Amanda is running a survey, and one number stands out: 44% of respondents named hot desking as something that put them off coworking, or stopped them trying it at all.
The reason sits in how some brains work. Certainty and predictability are not preferences for a lot of neurodivergent people; they are the conditions for functioning.
A colleague who supports neurodivergent students described hot desking as causing absolute chaos and meltdowns. Amanda's own comparison: being seated mid-room in a restaurant is unbearable for her, because she is habit-driven and needs to know where her place is.
Operators who sell flexibility should hear the cost. Flexible for whom? Offer a fixed desk, a regular spot, or at minimum a way to know where you will land before you arrive.
Design Is the Standard, Everything Around It Is the Difference
Bernie's favourite ex-WeWork employee, Dean, was at a Juicy roundtable on what makes a brain-first workspace. Dean's position is that good design is the standard.
Amanda's is that everything around the design makes the difference: the communication, the clarity, the understanding that people have different communication preferences.
Both are right, and the tension is useful. A beautiful space with no signage still loses Amanda at the door. A plain space with clear arrival instructions, honest rules and quiet hours keeps her.
Amanda's framing of the business case is plain: more people through the door, welcomed, and retained longer. That is a retention argument and a growth argument at once. The cheapest accessibility work you can do is also the cheapest marketing.
Links & Resources
Amanda Perry's Work
- Brain First, the platform for neurodivergent founders and leaders
- *Brain First Business*, Amanda's book
- Amanda's LinkedIn, where the original post and its 165 comments still sit
- Amanda's Instagram
- Amanda's survey on coworking and neurodivergent members
- The Brain First Mark / directory
Design
- Dean's design podcast (Bernie's former WeWork colleague, who spoke at the Juicy roundtable on brain-first workspaces)
Keep Talking
Support the Show
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Creators and Guests
What is Coworking Values Podcast?
Welcome to Coworking Values the podcast of the European Coworking Assembly.
Each week we deep dive into one of the values of accessibility, community, openness, collaboration and sustainability. Listen in to learn how these values can make or break Coworking culture.
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349: Hello, you
beautiful coworking community builders.
In today's episode, we
have the Amanda Perry and.
I found Amanda Perry on LinkedIn after
her post about her hellish experience
in a coworking space went viral.
I'm gonna leave you to find out what is in
the episode, but this is very interesting
if you are neurodivergent like myself.
And the other thing to do is go to
the coworking values podcast.com,
which is the most important URL
in the coworking industry at
the time are going to press.
And
Scroll to the bottom at any page.
There is the five day email course, which
is made from a lot of podcast guests on
this podcast over the years, and it's the
five mistakes that hollow out a coworking
community and what to do instead.
So it's a little practical action you
can take every day, and it's particularly
designed for independent coworking
space operators or owner managed spaces.
Or if you are a community manager
and you work in a space and you
get to look your owner in the
face every day, this is for you.
So enough of me, let's get into the show.
Bernie: Hello folks, it is the
Coworking Values Podcast, and in
the studio today it's Amanda Perry.
Amanda Perry, what are you known for
and what would you like to be known for?
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348:
that was very fast.
I am known for, I run a, found
a company called Brain First.
We are a platform for
neurodivergent founders and leaders.
I've just written a book called
Brain First Business, and yeah, I
think that's the top and bottom of it
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349: And what would
you, what would you like to be known for?
That's what you're doing now.
What would you like to be known for?
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348:
Do you know what?
That, that's actually where this
work with Brain First came from.
Someone said to me, "Okay,
you're on your deathbed.
You're 90 years old.
What you, what are you proud
to look back and have done?"
And at the time, I was just kind of
creating a lot of ADHD content and working
I was coaching, like business
coaching ADHD founders, and I was
like, " I actually wanna, like,
make a real difference," you know?
I want there to be a legacy, not as in
like my name up in lights, but just that
I made a difference and changed something.
And I think that that, yeah,
that's the work that we're
trying to do through Brain First.
So I would like to be
known for a difference to
neurodivergent business owners
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349: Well done.
I'm a neurodivergent businessâ¦
I'm a solopreneur.
Am I a business owner or am I a, anâ¦
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348:
a business
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349: I'm
an independent economic agent.
So, Amanda Perry, you were lucky
enough to come to my attention when
you posted that you were having
a shit time in a coworking space.
And I daren't open LinkedIn now, but
the last time I checked, there was like
165 comments underneath, and it wasâ¦
I, I'm always intrigued at what people
say about coworking spaces and, whatâ¦
And, and I, I did really relate to
what you said because I go-- I mean, I
love coworking, but, you know, I go to
places and I just cannot concentrate.
And the more I found out about being
neurodivergent and things like that,
I, I thought, I thought I was justâ¦
I thought it was just me, Amanda.
But like, what are the
things that affect you?
Like, and, and go, go straight for theâ¦
Don't, don't be nice.
Just go straight for the jugular
and save everyone's time.
What, what isâ¦
In, in that instance and other
instances like that, what
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348:
that, that particular instance, yeah,
but it, it went, it went viral for me.
Like, for the, the level of engagement
I normally get on LinkedIn, it was a
very kind of off-the-cuff post, but
people did seem to really engage with it.
And it was nice that on that post
in particular, there was like
potential users, so like founders,
entrepreneurs in there saying, "Yeah,
I hate them for these reasons."
And there was also operators like,
"No, no, we've done the work.
We've done this."
So there was like both sides of it.
For me, in that particular post, the
issues were someone was sat next to me
eating last night's leftover curry that
they'd just pinged in the microwave.
There was a woman walking up and down,
and it was a very small cowork space,
which is why I didn't call them out.
It just wasn't suitable for my needs.
I'd booked it really quickly,
hadn't researched it.
There was a woman walking up and
down, who, with like a old, like
taxi driver Bluetooth headset on,
Like being very aggressive on a
sales, like, recruitment call, and
it was just completely off-putting.
And there was all these very
arbitrary rules like you can only
have 20 minutes in the phone booth,
but don't worry if you go over.
If no one else wants to use
it, you're fine, but if they
wanna use it, you have toâ¦
You know?
It was just all too much.
Like, we need to know.
Tell me the rules, and then I know
the ones that I'm okay with breaking
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349: Yeah, I,
I ca- I, w- before we were talking on
about you need to know what's gonna
happen before you get in the building.
And, and I know everyâ¦
The more I've had conversations
like the one we're having now is,
you know, when I, you know, go
anywhere, I need to check it out.
I, I wasâ¦
I need to g- nowadays I go, go on
Google Maps and I work my pathway
there because I will find it.
I mean, it'll probably take me the
same amount of time anyway, but in my
head it's exhausting going from A to
B if I don't know what's gonna happen.
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348:
I totally agree.
And the thing is as well, Bernie, when
you're, I'm gonna say our age, we've
li- and when you're li-late diagnosed,
we've lived a life with that being the
case and, and hiding it, masking it,
telling ourselves we're stupid, telling
ourselves it's not really a thing.
Like, "No one else has to do this.
Just get over it.
Like, just go from A to B.
What's your problem?"
once you know that that is actually
how your brain's wired and that, that
your brain is wired differently to
some other people's, although the
same as a lot of other people's,
you know, you can start making those
accommodations for yourself, can't you?
And you can start adding in, " Right,
I need an extra 10 minutes because I
know I need to get from here to here."
But the problem is when, when that
information isn't availableâ¦
I, I love what the guys
at Worksy are doing.
I absolutely love it, and I used Worksy
when I got into London a few weeks ago,
and this was nothing to do with them.
This was about the, the place.
It was the place nearest the train
station that I'd pulled into.
I had to jump on a call, so I just
wanted to pop in there quickly.
I couldn't find the bloody door.
couldn't find where the, the,
the Worksy app takes you right
to it, but you know, it's London.
It was like a second floor thing,
some doorway in between like, I don't
know, a Burger King and whatever else.
Theâ¦
No sign, no clarity.
I just, I just, I couldn't
work out how to get in it.
That madeâ¦
When I finally found it after asking
a doorman that was nearby, by the time
I got in there and got set up, I was
so dysregulated and so stressed and
bloody sweaty and everything else.
It just made it a really awful experience.
I would never use that cowork again.
I think that the clarity and the
communication piece is so important
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349: It, it is.
There's, there's, all that thing you
just described have happened so many
times, and there's this, there's this
thing, it's like, it's like thisâ¦
Your, your adrenaline can go either way.
You either, like, wanna go to
sleep or it, it just fires you up.
Like, you, you f- you feel like
Bruce Willis ready to take on the
world, or you're like, "I've gotta
go and lie down like a sloth."
It's, it is really damaging.
And now I know what's happening like
I've got, For nearly a year now I've
worked with Helen, an ADHD coach, and
she's like defragmented all theâ¦
You know, there's a lot of
unlearning to do and stuff like that.
And yesterday, yesterday she said
something to me about something
which I, I'll not say 'cause I'll
go off on a massive tangent, but I
could feel all my defenses coming up.
And I said to her like, " Oh,
now my defenses have gone down,"
like, I'm, I can just talk about
this like a normal human being.
And there's a lot of, like what
you described about getting in the
building and feeling all overwhelmed,
and that point which you keepâ¦
And say something else about
it, that, that really clear
communication, like, itâ¦
I hate to feed you the line, but like if
it works for neurodivergent people, won't
it be better for everyone else, Amanda?
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348:
That's, that's the whole thing.
I did a keynote at Hachette a couple of
weeks ago, and the whole thing for me is
around, the whole, that whole talk and
the thing that really stuck with them
was, a lot about the, the dropped kerb.
So the dropped kerb was
created for wheelchair veterans
in the 1940s in America.
So all these veterans came back from
the war, they were in wheelchairs,
and couldn't bloody get around their
own towns because, you know, every
pavement was essentially a wall.
So they started chiseling out these
little ramps in the pavements and, you
know, these, these dropped kerbs that
every single one of us uses every day,
mums with prams, delivery drivers,
cyclists, everyone uses every day.
No one's, no one's moaning about them
and saying that they're woke or that's
bending over backwards for the few.
Like, if we design for the people
on the edges, everyone benefits.
If we design our cowork spaces for
the brains who need that clarity, that
communication, understanding, it just
creates a better environment for everyone.
And it's not aboutâ¦
I was having this discussion
at GCUC last week.
It's not about perfection.
It's not, you're never gonnaâ¦
Dean, who we were talking about
earlier, was saying it's not possible
to create a space for every single
type of brain, and, and we were kind
of arguing the same point really.
I was s- you know, that,
that's not the point.
It's about, are you
offering enough variety?
You know, you'll know yourself.
In the morning, maybe you want, you
know, a nice quiet area that you can
get some work done, but by the afternoon
you probably want a bit of noise and
a bit of energy and people to pick
you up, someone to chat to maybe.
But it's about offering that variety
so that everyone somewhere to go.
This isn't about bending over backwards
for neurodivergent people, this is
about creating spaces for every brain.
This is about it working
f- better for everyone.
But for, I believe that you have to start
with neurodivergent brains and understand
what, what the people on the edges
need to be able to create those spaces
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349: We do.
I'm gonnaâ¦
Ladies and gentlemen, I'm gonna nickâ¦
Dean is my favorite ex-WeWork employee,
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348:
Yeah, he's
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349:
and he's really good at design.
I'm gonna link to his podcast
about design in the show notes,
so go and check that out.
The, the thing-- So as you were
talking there, it reminded me of
your survey you're doing, which,
what a steam whistling that was,
and there's a question in there that
says, "Do you wanna come to the same
desk every day or something else?"
And, and honestly, I hovered over
that because I need to, like, go in a
building and sit in the same place, going
back to what we said at the beginning,
I need to know what's gonna happen.
But I like to go and sit in a,
in, you know, a big fan of nooks.
There's a coworking space called Creative
Works, and, in, in London, and I go there,
and I have my de- have my desk, but then
I like to go and sit in the nook, and
then I like to go and sit in another thing
and do something else and move around.
But if someone takes away my
desk, I will probably cry.
But it's, it's, it's a bit odd.
Like, I don't want to use it all the time,
but I need to know it's there, you know?
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348: Yeah.
Yeah, it's so true, isn't it?
And I'm just looking at the stats now.
So, the question is, if you
stopped or never tried using
a cowork, what put you off?
And hot desking is 44%.
So I think it is really important, and,
and that's where we get into the nuance
of it, of like, well, you can get your
own desk, and you can pay more for that.
But then, you know, you're only, you're
only going in there one day a week.
But because your- whatever your flavor
of neurodivergence is, you need that
certainty, and you need that same space.
That's where we get into the
granular of, well, maybe this
space just isn't for you because it
probably isn't gonna be possible.
I was working with a college who support
neurodivergent students last week.
I was in there with them, and,
and she was saying that they had
tried hot desking for the students,
and it was just absolute chaos.
Like, they just all had
a complete meltdown.
They hated it.
I'm exactly the same.
I need to know, I need to know where
I'm going, what I'm doing, what it's
gonna look like, how it's gonna feel.
You know, I'm very habit-driven like that.
Like going to a ca- if someone-- if I
go into a restaurant and they sit me
in a table in the middle of the room,
I just, I have, I just can't sit there.
I just have to go.
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349: Me too.
The so the picture I've had
forever at the top of my social
media is sitting round a table at
Coworking Europe in Milan in 2015.
And there's a l- around that time,
like every couple of months I'd
go to a conference, and there was
quite a lot of the same people,
and we would get to the conference.
There was always tables laid
out, and we would just allâ¦
A, a big ugly multi-plug in the middle,
and we'd all like jump round, plug in,
start working together and chatting,
and someone would do a coffee run.
And no one organized anything.
And th- essentially that was hot desking.
We could-- I could do that.
But if I had to go into London and
book a, a hot desk in a, coworking
space, I, I, I've never done it
actually, just thinking about it.
And it's really, it's, it's odd how theâ¦
I'm not sh- sure where this is going
, but it's odd how like being at an event
and sitting around a table randomly
is really fun, and I, I, I love it.
But going into a random
environment is terrifying
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348:
I think it'sâ¦
I mean, it, yeah, an event, I guess you
know what you're going to, don't you?
And you know that everyone's there
for the same purpose, and everyone's,
everyone understands what the
expectations and parameters are.
Whereas walking into a random space
where you don't know the rules, you
don't know the expectations, is, is
daunting and is frankly not good business.
It's just not a goodâ¦
You know, going back to Dean again,
the dis- the round table we had at
GCUC was around what makes a brain
first workspace, and we were talking
about the, of pillars that we look at.
And Dean, who is, you know, absolutely
evangelical about, about des- design
and cowork design in particular, was
very keen to impress, you know, to
tell the group that design is standard.
But Iâ¦
A- and it should be, good design
should be standard, but my point
is that it's everything around
it that makes the difference.
It's the communication, it's the
clarity, it's understanding that
with different communication
preferences might be coming into
their space and how to work with them.
Ultimately, you know, this, this
isn't, this doesn't sit separate
from the commercial discussion.
This is about getting more people
through the door, welcoming more people,
ma- and retaining them for longer
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349: That
leads me to my next thing, which I,
I, is on my list that I've not managed
to squeeze into our conversation.
Gee, Amanda, what percentage of the
UK population is neurodivergent,
and how many are business
owners and, and all those stats?
'Cause
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348:
the estimate, which is, is, is un-
unproved, the estimate is around 20%
of the population, but 55% of business
owners identify as neurodivergent.
And, and more than that, 64%, it's not so
relevant to this conversation, but it's an
interesting stat, 64% of them only started
a business because the workplace couldn't
support them, and they felt it was their
only, viable route to earn a living.
So yeah, fif- over half of business owners
in the UK identify as neurodivergent,
which is, which is exactly the
business case for these cowork spaces.
You know, you go into any cowork space
and the, the skew of neurodivergence
is, is palpable, isn't it?
In that like you don't have to look
far before you find one of your own
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349: That stat
in there about why people started a
business I have always found itâ¦
i've worked for a lot of people who I
love them and they love me, and Iâ¦
So many places I've been sacked about
three times and then been allowed to come
back, and I could never understand it.
And these people, like I'm still--
I've been to their weddings.
It's not like I've, you know,
screwed them over or anything.
And I ended up working for myself
'cause I just was terrified of
getting fired again, you know.
Especially when I got married and had
to like be grown up and everything.
And, and I, you know, it worked for me.
And I didn't, I didn't really
understand what I was doing
20 years when I started off.
But as I've met more people, you
know, like you, it's like so manyâ¦
It isâ¦
It used to be like cool, like,
"Oh yes, y- you be an entrepreneur
'cause you're dyslexic."
But you know, it's like, mate, I'm an
entrepreneur 'cause I have no choice.
I mean, I'm not, I wouldn't
identify as an entrepreneur.
But c- can you say a bit more about that?
'Cause I, I don't think people either
who aren't neurodivergent understand
that, 'cause everyone's always like,
"You've got to get a job, Bernie."
And people who are working for themselves
maybe, I don't even know why I said
maybe, aren't aware that that's why
they put themselves in that situation.
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348: I
think there's this know, I've said it for
years, oh, I'm completely unemployable.
And I, and theâ¦
When I say that, there's a, there's
kind of a, you know, I always joke
about it, but there's sort of a, a
feeling of shame behind that of I, I've
actually, I don't know how, but I've
actually never been sacked from a job.
And I've al- the, the jobs that I had, I
was always in them for a long, long time,
but by the skin of my teeth, you know?
And it was, it was always so painful.
I worked for a big, telecoms
company, in business sales, and I
was the top performing seller, but
I couldn't do it within their rules.
I couldn't do it within the
stupid KPIs and, like, arbitrary,
office rules that they had.
So in the end, I just left 'cause
it was just too much hassle.
Like, every day I was, you
know, "What's the problem?
I'm bringing in the sales.
What does it matter how I'm doing th-"
Like, I was doing them legally, you know?
I wasn't doing anything wrong.
It's just that I w- I was, I was
operating in a slightly different way
to how they would want me to operate.
And so many people, this is,
it's quite a big conversation on,
LinkedIn at the moment, I think.
But Iâ¦
Y- you're right, people still haven't
connected that it's actually not a them
problem, it's a workplace problem, and if
the workplace don't sort this, there'sâ¦
So there's 500,000 tribunals in
the, in the system at the moment,
and they're booking into 2032.
Like, we're at a, we're at a break
point situation in, in the workplace
right now that if this isn't sorted
out, if people don't address this, I
don't know where we're gonna end up.
Because when you think about those 64%
of, of neurodivergent entrepreneurs or
business owners only starting a business
because the workplace, like, thatâ¦
Every, every, worker that leaves
employment costs that business around
half of their annual salary, know?
Every single person who leaves.
And we already know a
lot of the workplaces I'm
speaking to track this data.
We know there's a much higher attrition
rate with neurodivergent employees.
And for all of these reasons, there's
another stat that, like, s- is it
69, 68% of neurodivergent employees
say that they're actively planning on
leaving their company within the next
12 months for all of those reasons.
And it's, it's just a really- It's a
really stark picture, and it's also a
picture that makes complete sense because
we've gone from a place five years ago,
six years ago, where all the anonymous
employee surveys were saying, "You know,
I'm not supported in my mental health."
And now they're all saying, "I'm not
supported in my neurodivergence."
Not because, anything has changed in
the workplace, but because we've not
now got the language, we've now got
the awareness and the understanding
that it was never just mental health.
It was-- There's a, there's a
underlying cause behind that, which
is a neurodivergent condition.
So I think it makes complete sense,
but I think the companies who are
struggling right now are the ones who've
been focused on ticking boxes, makeâ¦
You know, getting neurodiversity
training in so it looks good on
LinkedIn, and make sure everyone's
posting that we've done this on
LinkedIn, but actually nothing really
fundamentally changing on the shop floor.
And that's-- So we have the, the Brain
First mark, which is for external, for,
for customers to know, customers, members,
end users to know that they're in with
a safe pair of hands with this business.
We also have the Brain First Workplace
Accreditation, which is where we go in,
do the training, work with the team, work
with the business to make it a better
place for, for their neurodivergent
employees and in turn for everyone
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349:
I think that there's oh, so
much to unpack there, Amanda.
I think the there, there, there isâ¦
Oh, I just see so many people going,
you know, "We're a neurodivergent first
company," and there's, there's that
bit with, you know, everyone's like,
"Oh, mental health is so important.
We're giving free therapy
sessions," and, and, and there'sâ¦
I know people that are doing that,
like absolutely committed, but there,
there's an inconvenience that comes
with someone like you and I working
in a company that won't toe the line.
You know, "You're a loose cannon, Perry.
You know, I need to match and you can't."
And they-- I think a lot of people are
full of shit 'cause they love standing
on stages saying, "Yes, you know, we're
committing 100 hours to mental health,"
and it's like, as long as you meet
your quota or the, the, you knowâ¦
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348:
Yeah, it's
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349:
We, it breaks-- Go on
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348: real
classic example of like when, when people
emplo- employ ADHD people, particularly
now that there is more awareness.
And it's this idea of like, I could, I
could do a week's worth of work in a day,
but I can't do that for five days in a
row, eight hours sat in an office with
illuminous lights, people chatting around
me, and, you know, the office politics
bullshit that you have to deal with.
So, it's understanding ⦠It's about,
it's about people understanding the
neurodivergent advantage of, you
know, we are a group of people who are
highly strategic, creative, detailed.
There's, ⦠So in Ernst Young, they run a
autism program, which they've been running
for a while, really, really successful.
Some incredible case
studies come out of it.
And one of them is, so they hire autistic
people, they train them in a way that
nurtures and supports their autism, and
then they let them go and be autistic in
the business, like really importantly.
And one guy was allowed to be autistic
in the business and spotted an
efficiency in one of their processes
that saved them 140 million a year.
And, and there's stories like this that
are like, if all you care about is the
business, do it for that, you know?
But you can't take the strengths without,
t- understanding and supporting the
weaknesses, which are, he could save
you 140 million a year, but don't ask
him to do X, Y, Z, or don't ask him
to do it in an environment where he
has to be on communicating all day.
What- you know, whatever his
particular challenges are.
And that's where we have to understand
the brains better because it would be
really easy for, you know, the Cyril Sneer
type CEO to go, "He saved them how much?
Oh my God, right, we need
to employ autistic people.
Like, bring them to me," without
understanding the condition, understanding
how they can be supported better
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349: I would, I
would do very well in that situation.
If I was allowed to do whatever I
wanted and then just knew the one
thing I had to sort out, I would I'd
go and work for a thing like that.
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348:
And that,
how many people miss out on
outcomes because, because you're
not allowed to use your strengths
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349: I've,
I've got a couple of things I need
to shout out here is we ran for a
lot, a lot of conferences back inâ¦
What do you call the bit
between like 2010 and 2020?
Like the, the '19s?
I don't know.
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348: the
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349: But weâ¦
The good bit, yeah, just
before it all crashed.
Weâ¦
So, so me and a group of other people,
we'd go to events and conferences, and
we'd run something around inclusion
and diversity and stuff like that,
and about four people would turn up.
And then at Coworking Europe, I think
it was in 2019, we ran, we, we calledâ¦
Instead of calling it inclusion and
diversity, we called it the business case
for inclusion and diversity, and we went
from like having six people in the room to
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348:
Yeah, nice
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349: And these,
these academics at a university in
the Netherlands wrote a paper about
I think it's called like Coworking
Spaces and Inequality and New Forms
of Organizing, something like that.
And it just talks about howâ¦
Essentially the paper is like how
coworking spaces are geared to affluent
middle class privileged men starting
tech startups and not everyone else.
And they at- I'm delighted they did this,
they caned the fact that we called it the
business case for inclusion and diversity,
' cause the reason we called it that was
because we knew people would come along.
And then when it was the business case,
like you just said, you know, everyone's
like, "Oh, well, I'll pay attention now.
I didn't give a shit before."
And how could weâ¦
I, I feel a lot of, you know, what
your whole thing is with the, with
the survey is like, mate, it'sâ¦
Can't believe I said that.
Mate.
Mate,
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348: Macca.
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349: for the,
for the fuck's sake, you make more
money if you listen here, you know?
Like, can, can you emphasize that point?
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348:
isn't there?
I think it's about, you know,
what you're talking about is
hooking people in, isn't it?
There has to be a hook.
There has to beâ¦
You have to know who you're speaking to,
and if you're talking to someone who,
who talks in dollars, and pence, whatever
the saying is, then you need to speak
that language to have the conversation
with them in the first place to be able
to tell them the full story, you know?
It's like any social media post, isn't it?
You have to have a hook to pull people in.
So I under- why they would be
concerned, and I would haveâ¦
You know, we've been talking about
the same concerns, haven't we?
But I think the reality is that it,
I think it was clever to do that.
As long as you're then, as long as the
conversation is then about the balance
between the, the commercial upside and
how to actually support these people, how
to actually, how to actually do diversity
and inclusion or whatever we're calling
it in our own businesses these days.
You know, it's a really,
it's not a tick box.
That's why we're in this whiplash that
we're in right now, where we're seeing
all these tribunals and all these issues.
There was a case the other day, you
know, this is slightly going off on
a tangent, but there was a case the
other day where a manager was held
personally liable for not agreeing or
not implementing a reasonable adjustment,
and it was the first time it's happened.
So the case went to tribunal.
It was kicked out 'cause they said, " You
can't name the individual, the manager.
This is a business case.
You can o-" So it was kicked out.
She took it to the appeals,
tribunal appeals people, and
they said, "Well, actually, no.
In this case, the, we agree that this
individual should be named because w-
someone is responsible for incorrectly
refusing that, reasonable adjustment."
And so, and so the, the manager
was held personally liable.
So my message is really, if your
company isn't paying for this,
you need to know, like, how, where
your responsibility starts and
ends, because that is terrifying.
That is a really scary precedent
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349: I've
gotta be quiet, I'm so scared.
to avoid situations like that,
ladies and gentlemen, if you
get involved in the Brain First
Mark, what can you say about that?
Because like, a few, couple of years ago
we'd- Tash Thomas, who does a lot around
inclusion and diversity, said if you
have a little rainbow flag on your thing,
like as a gay person or a transgender
person, if I see that little symbol in
the window, I feel way safer going there.
And a re- recurring thing on this
podcast is about feeling safe, like be-
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348: yeah
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349:
psychological a- a- and all that.
So
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348: Yeah,
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349: as a
neurodivergent person, if I saw
that, what would you want me to feel?
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348:
Yeah, I want you to feel like
you're in a safe pair of hands.
So the-- I don't think I'm really
allowed to say this, but I'm kind of it
as like the B Corp for neurodiversity.
The problem is, so a lot of these
coworking spaces, a lot of workplaces
are actually doing the work.
They're just struggling to
find the, the shared language.
So if we look at the workplace
specifically, of the problem with
this backlog of tribunals is that
managers are fucking terrified
to have this conversation.
They're just so scared to use the
wrong language, offend someone,
escalate the situation, so they
just don't have the conversation.
This is about giving them a shared
language, a tool, a workbook.
We have loads of resources and stuff for
them to actually have those conversations
as equals, because the common narrative
is like this them versus us kind of thing.
But actually, when you look at the stats,
the higher up in a business you go, the
higher the percentage of neurodivergence
to the point where in a C-suite, you're
looking at about 59% neurodivergence
compared to the general people,
general team, which is about 20, 25%.
So very often what's actually happening
is that we're just fighting each other.
So we're giving them the
shared language, the tools.
In the ins- in the example of a cowork
space, a sign on the door, a listing
in the directory to say, "If you're
looking for a workspace in this area
that's gonna work for you, we recommend
this one because it's been assessed
against our criteria of X, Y, Z
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349: Delicious.
We will, we will definitely put
a link in the show notes to that.
Can you, can you pimp your
little sur- little s- sorry, I
didn't mean to say little survey.
Can you pimp your survey?
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348: bitâ¦
How's
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349: Yeah,
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348: business
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349: y- you
can, you can punch me, like it wasâ¦
I'm, like, I'm, I'm not
even gonna edit that out.
That ground, that very
fucking important d-
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348:
know what?
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349: data gathering
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348:
laughing about this, but this
data simply doesn't exist.
Like, no one ha- and it's not
surprising as it is, you know,
quite a new thing, et cetera.
But I really wa- thank you for
giving me the chance to promote
it, because I really, really want
people to share this far and wide.
I'd love to get, like, 500 people
going through it, like a really
significant data set so that the
data actually means something.
I'm, you know, whether it proves my theory
or not, I just want the actual data.
So yeah, I think the best way
for people to find it is maybe to
find me on LinkedIn, Amanda Perry.
Amanda Perry UK, I think I am on
LinkedIn, and I've been posting it
on there, or Instagram, Amanda Perry.
That's probably the best
place to find it at the moment
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349:
And we're gonna put a link in
the show notes to that, folks.
We're gonna put it in the
LinkedIn coworking group.
And then I feel with, like what
you're, what we're talking about here,
and we'll, we'll carry on talking
about it, is there's other people
already doing something like this.
And if you, if you're listening to
this, can you connect with Amanda?
'Cause I've just seen so many people
kind of reinventing the wheel,
but they only have half the wheel.
And, and I've seen other projects I,
I dunno if you know Martin Sibley.
He's, he's theâ¦
Another person.
We'll link to his podcast here.
He talks about accessible travel.
I've seen that guy over the last 17 years
just, like, gather people together, and
kind of stop people wasting a lot of
time and energy trying to move something
uphill when you all get together.
So there are soâ¦
And it, just in London alone,
there's like 1,300 coworking spaces,
and if they all filled this in,
it would, it would be amazing.
I'm
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348: be
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349:
sure how to finish that.
So
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348:
Thank you, Bernie.
Thanks for all your support as well.
You've been amazing
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349:
That's all I got, you know.
But it's, it's really close to
my heart because I have, you
know, been neurodivergent and
struggled and everything like that.
And I, like you said earlier, I know
personally so many coworking space owners
and community managers that are, like,
working out how to do it as they go along.
A lot of people think they need to, like,
totally re- they need to soundproof their
whole coworking space and get, you know,
a special type of mineral water in, and
you just need to make a few changes.
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348:
like that would, that was
the obstacle that we've had.
Been working with X and Y on this
for a while now, having conversations
back and forth, and that was one of
their hesitations, like, "Well, we
need to make changes to the building."
And I just wanna assure
people it's not that.
It's not about the design.
The design you will either,
like, pass or fail, you know?
Theâ¦
When we look at the smaller independent
spaces, they're built around community.
They're not built around the,
the building these spaces where
everyone is necessarily welcome.
I know that might be controversial,
but I know what I mean.
I mean they're aren't they?
It's a difficult space for, for
anyone to wander into and feel
welcome, you know, feel at home in.
But the bigger operators who have
the budget, have the capacity, have
the resources to be able to provide
these spaces, so often, as we said,
it's, it's about the stuff around
it that, that we're looking at
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349:
That's brilliant.
I wanna carry on talking, but
my car is on double yellow lines
outside and there's a warden there.
So we are, we're, we're gonna link
to Amanda's survey, Amanda's big
survey in the sh- in the show notes.
We're gonna link to Brain
First and is your b- your
book's on Amazon now, isn't it?
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348: yeah,
just about to launch in the States.
I'll also I'll sort you a discount,
Bernie, for anyone that's listening
and wants to get their cowork
space link listed on the directory.
I'll sort out a little discount
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349: Nice.
And we'll put a link to
that directory as well.
There's something else I meant to
mention, and we'll be at-- All this
stuff, we're gonna be-- We are going
to be again at the Workspace Design
Show in the Business Designâ¦
Lots of businesses there.
Workspace Design Show at the Business
Design Center in Islington, which
is one of my favorite buildings
in the, in the whole thing,
on the-- sometime in February.
So there'll be a wait list knocking around
there, and we're gonna run two workshops
with Urban MBA like we do every year.
I think this is our sixth year there.
And there's also a link to the people
we've mentioned in the show, and
I'm sure there's something else,
but go and check the show notes.
We're very, very proud of
our extensive show notes.
They're a PhD in coworking on their own.
So Amanda Perry, anything else
you'd like to say before we hang up?
amanda-perry_3_10-14-2026_103348: thank
you for all your support and all the
work you do and yeah, looking forward to
getting even more embedded in the Cowork
community with the work that we're doing
bernie_2_10-14-2026_113349: Beautiful.
Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.
Thank you for your time and attention.
Wherever you are in the
world, be careful out there.
It is a jungle