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Random people, random topics, talking on random sidewalks in the City of Saginaw, Michigan.
SWT_Alex Mixter_1_v2
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phil: [00:00:00] Alex Mixter That's me Sidewalk Talk, take one
phil: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Alex Mixner, I'm looking forward to talking to you. When was the last time, like, we sat down to talk? Um, it's been at least a
alex: week. Prob- probably, uh, I think, like, 2023 or something like that.
phil: Yeah.
alex: That sounds about right.
phil: Yeah. I miss you. I mean, we were, we were just- I miss you ... we were just talking before recording, and I shoulda hit record, but sometimes you just gotta talk to people and not make it into content.
phil: Am I right? Um, and- Be
alex: present,
phil: man ... a- and, like, a, th- like, yeah, you just gotta be present, man, as we're, like, staring into three cameras.
alex: Active monitoring.
phil: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't turn everything into content, you hypocrite. Um, and I just, I r- I really like talking to you. You went on, like, a little bit of a social media break.
alex: I did. [00:01:00] Yeah, I did. Um, I, uh, I got tired. I mean, I'm a videographer, so, like- Yeah ... uh, I remember a long time ago I heard my dad say something of, like, "I don't wanna record everything you do 'cause I don't wanna watch you grow up through a lens."
phil: Yeah. It's
alex: true. I kinda feel that way about, like, the work, you know, like, that, uh, that everything needs to be filmed or documented and everything.
alex: And then, uh, and then I get done with that break, and I'm like, "Oh, I should've been filming way more stuff." Yeah. "I should've been doing ..." Yeah "... a, a lot
phil: more, but I'm happy to be back." You couldn't go the other way.
alex: Yeah.
phil: Um, I, I wanna tell you a quick story about, about that, like, y- you, like, you don't have to film everything.
phil: Mm-hmm. I was, um... I'll try to shorten it. I was doing... I was leading this workshop down in Hartsville, South Carolina, teaching a bunch of communities how to do what I do but for themselves. And one of the, uh, things that we do in the afternoon is I take the group to a local business, and I walk them th- like, I do a demo interview, and I take the photos so that they can see it, and they c- we can all experience it.
phil: And the o- uh, word was that when I flew in, the woman who w- u- she owns a [00:02:00] boutique, and the word was she was incredibly nervous about our interview, to the point where the director tried to get ahold of her and g- like, couldn't get any sort of contact. And I was like, "Oh, man, this is kind of a, an issue- Yeah
phil: 'cause we're gonna show up. She's not gonna be there." And so I walk over, uh, to, to her place while everybody's on break to try to, like, talk her down, and she's there. And I, uh, like, introduce myself, and I tell her, you know, "It's not really... It's not about you at all. Like, it's really about me and, and about, like, how do you do a, a good interview.
phil: And she- It's not
alex: about you, it's me.
phil: Yeah. It's not you, it's me person. And, and she, she's feeling good, and she's like, l- like, uh, she cracks a joke. She says, "Is it okay if I have a drink first?" And I said, "You, y- you, you do you, girl." So we, we do this. Um, we come back, uh, do this interview. Sh- it's in front of 30 people, and she, uh, amazing.
phil: She's- Yeah ... charming. She's working the room. I felt like I [00:03:00] was on Oprah, and she was leading it. Uh, she was absolutely wonderful. And, um, uh, everybody leaves, and I go up to her and I say, "I just wanna tell you- you how great of a job you did." And she said, "Well, it's..." Uh, 'cause I did have a drink before. And I laugh, and she said, "Do you want one?"
phil: And I'm f- I'm in professional mode, and I'm like, "Oh, no, like, I can't drink. I've still got this afternoon of this, the workshop to go." And sh- and I said, "No, the, yeah, that's, I'd really love to, but, but I've gotta get back." And she said, "No, you're, you're gonna want a drink of this." And she takes me into this back room, and in the back room is this old, like, swing bar, uh, refrigerator.
phil: And she opens up this refrigerator, and there's one thing inside that refrigerator, and it is this clear home brew bottle- Oh ... like, the kind with the swing tops. And in-
alex: Mysterious,
phil: yeah ... and inside that bottle is this, like, golden liquid. And she goes, uh, "My grandfather had a lemon tree that never bore any fruit.[00:04:00]
phil: Last summer, my grandfather passed away, and wouldn't you know, it was the first time in 20 years that lemon tree bore fruit, the biggest lemons you've ever seen. Hmm. And so my family picked these lemons, and we distilled it down, and we made limoncello from my grandfather's lemons."
alex: No kidding. "
phil: Do you want a drink?"
phil: And I'm gonna tell you, and why I'm bringing up the story- Yeah ... there was a part of me that as she started that story, I wanted to just like slowly reach into my pocket- ... and like inconspicuously hit record. Uh-huh. To like, to just, like I have to get this story on record. We're rolling on this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
phil: Camera guy, come. But, but there was something that, that stopped me and said like, like n- this is, this is bigger than that.
alex: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's actually sacred.
phil: Yeah, this- Yeah ... th- it, it is important that it is just you and her and that bottle of liquid and the story.
alex: Mm-hmm.
phil: And, um, I think that [00:05:00] speaks to your point is like we, we really have this compulsion, this addiction to live our lives through our phone.
phil: Like, and, and well-meaning a lot of times. Absolutely. Like, like, uh, your kids' dance recital, the birthday party, the friends, all of those things. They're like we wanna record these things thinking that that that makes them important, but really what makes them important is us being there.
alex: Yeah. Did you miss it?
phil: Yeah.
alex: You can miss the moment by filming it.
phil: Yeah, and then you open up your, your, your, your camera roll three years later when you buy a new phone and you've got 10,000 photos and videos that you- Yeah ... never looked at.
alex: Yep.
phil: And when, when we should just be with people.
alex: All those concert videos that I never got back to.
phil: Right. Yeah. It's Bob Dylan, everybody. It's Bob Dylan. Look at him. He's, he's there. He's on my phone. He's there. He's up there. Look at Bob Dylan. Like, man, we just gotta listen to Bob Dylan,
alex: man. Yeah, that also proves, uh, two rules that I've learned through interviewing people. One is that the people who are the best interviews don't wanna talk to you.
alex: Yes. They don't wanna be on camera. They, they s- and [00:06:00] they always say, "I have nothing to say."
phil: Yep.
alex: Those are always the best interviews. And then number two is that, uh, the best stuff happens the moment you stop recording. It's
phil: also true. It's also true. That's why we don't hit stop on this thing until like we're absolutely done and we're packing up into the truck.
phil: Oh, absolutely, yeah. 'Cause everybody spills the beans later. Um, we are obviously... Well, actually, not obviously. Alex Mixter- Yes ... where are we right now?
alex: We are in front of the Pere Marquette Potter Street Station. Uh, this is a, uh, train depot from 1881. Uh, this was basically the entry point for anyone coming to Saginaw in the 1800s and then through 1950.
alex: Um, and this has been a landmark for years. And, uh, it's been a very long project for, um, a very small group of people. Yeah. And, uh, the fact that we get to be part of what happens here, I think is, uh, it's a privilege, and it's the kinda stuff [00:07:00] that makes me grateful to be here because, uh, this kinda stuff doesn't happen in other places.
alex: Yeah.
phil: And th- this place has not just historical significance for Saginaw- Mm-hmm ... but it's real- like, state, national significance. Am I right?
alex: Yeah. Yeah, so this is actually, uh, one of the last remaining, um, Victorian train stations. Uh, largest in Michigan at least. Um- Yeah ... and the, the train station down in, uh, Detroit that everybody knows, obviously much, much bigger than this one, but very different era.
alex: Um, so this is kind of one of a kind. Um, and, and really this was the headquarters for the entire Pere Marquette, um, Railroad. Mm. So all tracks came through Saginaw at that point. And so their headquarters was here. It was right on Washington at one point. Mm-hmm. Um, and then they moved it over to here. And, uh, this is where they operated out of for, uh, close to a century.
phil: Mm. I, I, I kinda wanna connect that with something that comes up with these interviews a lot w- with, uh, like [00:08:00] Saginaw's connection to the rest of the world. Yeah. And something that comes up so often in these conversations is, like, you know, "I was on vacation at Myrtle Beach and I ran into the guy se- selling lemonade and he asked me where I'm from, and I said Saginaw."
phil: Yeah. He's like, "Oh, I'm from there," or, "My mom lives there," or like, California or playing in the NBA. Yep. It just, if, on the bus, Simon and Garfunkel. Yeah. Like, like they're, they're riding the bus to Saginaw. Like, it just, there's such a confluence of people's lives that happen here, and what you're saying is really connected to this station.
phil: I mean, like- Yeah. Oh, yeah, a huge way ... the, the connection, like the people moving here and the, the, the transportation element really created a connection of Saginaw to so many people's lives. They got here, they traveled through here, they stayed here, they moved here, they moved away from here, they lived lives here, and then that spreads out over the country.
phil: And so this had such an importance of that.
alex: Yeah, I mean, a [00:09:00] huge part of what's interesting about the history of Saginaw is how much getting here mattered. Um- Yeah. Oh ... that, that the way to here, I mean, the original path was actually the Saginaw Trail, which was just a native path, uh, that was worn down over the years, and you needed a guide in order to come up, you know, to here, um, 'cause it was very easy to get lost in, in the thick wilderness of it.
alex: Yeah.
alex: Um, and then the, uh, the plank road that they built from, uh, Flint to here.
alex: Yeah.
alex: Um, I remember there was an article or something where they said something along the lines of, like, "You may as well build a road to the moon." Like, there's no reason- Hmm ... to do that. Hmm. And it was, it was, you know, highly criticized.
alex: Uh, and then you have a plank road here, and then, you know, suddenly people are getting here, and then you have railroads that come here.
alex: Mm-hmm.
alex: And now you can take a train there.
alex: Mm-hmm.
alex: And ironically, the thing that kills this place is that thing right down the street, the highway. Um, so everyone- Mm-hmm
alex: gets their own cars and everybody's- Mm-hmm ... independent in that way. Um, and then you just see this drop-off of rail usage. And then, uh, the great irony to me is that, uh, pretty much everyone I [00:10:00] know would love for rail to exist if, if we had- It's true ... transportation of some- It's true ... of some kind, like rail, um, that...
alex: The dream that I have is to be able to take a bus to Potter Street Station and then go to Detroit- Yeah ... and spend the weekend there.
phil: Yep.
alex: And then take the train back, and then-
phil: Yep ...
alex: just go right back home- Yeah ... without ever having to get into a car. 'Cause if I could never go on I-75 again, I would pay-
phil: A- ...
alex: so much money
phil: men.
alex: Take all my tax dollars, put it towards high-speed rail.
phil: Amen. Everybody I talk to who's, like, of, rides the train to Chicago, they're like, "Yeah."
alex: Oh, it's magic.
phil: Love it to- Yeah. Like, it, I get to hang out with my friends. I get to do all this. I don't have to think about anything. All I have to do is hop on that thing.
phil: Like, does it take a little bit longer? Sure it does, but I'm okay with that 'cause I, I-
alex: Anything that's good takes a little longer. Like, if you make- Everything ... your own bread, you know? Yeah, you can go buy some Wonder Bread.
phil: Yes.
alex: Great. Sounds good.
phil: Yeah.
alex: But man, dude, my sister got into sourdoughs, and- Nothing like it
phil: [00:11:00] Nothing like it
alex: You know?
phil: We've, we've unfortunately traded convenience for almost everything else.
alex: Yeah, I'll take some inconvenience at this point. Yeah. If, you know, if it means we can have things like this and, and just the amount of effort that goes into something like this too.
phil: Yeah. You know, they're like talking about inconvenience, like you're staring at the gas pump and it costs you $125.
phil: Like, that's very inconvenient. Dude,
alex: I bought a 1995 pickup truck.
phil: You did. It's awesome.
alex: And I did that days before the, the Iran embargo- Oh, yeah? ... and, and all that. So like, the, the, the timing on buying that particular truck- ... hurts so bad. It does. It does. Yeah, I also
phil: got a truck- Useful though ... and I was like, "Yeah, I'm s- like, so utilitarian," and then you get really sad later.
phil: When you're like, "Oh,
alex: this cost so much money." The tank is how big?
phil: Yeah, it ma- it does make you sad. Um, yeah, wh- what you said about, like, the, the transportation, it, it's just so much a part of our life, and it [00:12:00] influences so many parts of our life, and it influences the community. Like, when it's great, I mean, like, think about wh- what you said.
phil: W- if you can take a bus to the stration- t- to this station, go to Detroit, now your quality of life, like, everything is m- instantly accessible- Oh, yeah ... or more accessible. You think about, like, what STARS is trying to do and figuring out, like, how do we, how do we make transportation better for this community?
phil: Not just because we wanna make it better, but to improve people's lives.
alex: Yeah, and I was kinda doing some foreshadowing with the whole taking a bus to Potter Street Station thing.
phil: Yes, you were.
alex: A little bit of, uh, a little bit of foreshadowing there.
phil: So let's, let's for- let's take, like, one step back from the foreshadow, 'cause I wanna make sure- Yeah
phil: because you, you referenced it's taken a lot of work from a very small group of people-
alex: Yeah ...
phil: to keep this station to the point where it is viable and there can be a future. So give me a little bit of the story about that. How, how is this place still here?
alex: Honestly, [00:13:00] that story is not told loudly enough.
phil: Yes.
alex: Um, so this was active through the '80s. Um, the last rail that actually had, you know, just regular, um, uh, just regular passenger rail-
phil: Mm-hmm ...
alex: that was, I believe, 1950, 1951. Um, from there it was only freight, so they really switched this. There's a lot of, like, remodeling they did on the inside to make it very utilitarian, essentially.
alex: Um, so it was only about the freight through the '80s, and then they had no use for it anymore. So what do you do with a building that you don't have any use for? You tend to tear it down. Um, but also, it's expensive to do that. Mm-hmm. So that cost of the demolition was actually part of the saving grace for the building, because no one wanted to do it.
alex: Mm-hmm. And so there was, you know, l- like, this conversation going back and forth. Maybe the city's gonna acquire it. There was all these things that they weren't sure what was gonna happen. Um, and then there was this small group of preservationists, um, that they got together and they said, "This could be something.
alex: This could be, like, a [00:14:00] railroad museum of some kind. This could be some kind of use to the community." Um, and so 1989 is when they establish, uh, the organization, and so they start the Saginaw Depot Preservation Corporation. Um, and we are the same organization, uh, to this day. So- So
phil: that's 1989. Yep. So just, I wanna highlight that.
phil: Sorry to interrupt. I just wanna highlight that to folks. F- so for almost 40 years- Yeah ... a very small group of people have believed enough in this building to do all the hard work to save it.
alex: And when it comes to hard work, holy cats. Yeah. Um, the, the way that, uh- Honestly, the way that disaster struck almost immediately 'cause, um, they acquire it in 1989, they're getting, uh, grants written up, they're, they're doing all kinds of stuff.
alex: They're working on, on all the financing and all of that. 1991, there's an arson, and so the entire third floor gets taken out. Uh, most of the second floor gets taken out, and they say, "Okay Let's just dig [00:15:00] up all, like, let's take all of this ash, let's, let's, uh, throw it into dumpsters. Let's get this out of here, clear the way.
alex: 1995, they get a grant from the state and they put the roof on that you currently see. It's a, uh, floating roof. It's not actually the roof. It's, um- Wow ... it's resting just on a structure that's just inside of the building.
phil: Really? I did not know that.
alex: This whole roof is, uh... And they did a really good job in terms of a temporary roof, 'cause they wanted it to be, uh, you know, like, more sympathetic to what it's supposed to look like.
phil: Yeah.
alex: Um, 1997, right after they put the roof on, the tower that was in the middle of it comes straight through the roof and just knocks out a lot of work they just did. Knocks out the entire men's waiting room. Um, there's just all kinds of damage that happens there, and you would think that that's like, okay, we're done.
alex: Mm-hmm. Nope. They get right back to it. Mm-hmm. Um, and at this point too, I mean, I was born in 1991, and so all of this is happening while I'm in Pampers. Mm-hmm. All of this is happening while I'm learning to [00:16:00] walk. Yes. Yeah. Um, so the fact that, like, there is this multi-generational effort where, uh, whenever I get discouraged about this project, it's so easy to look back and say, "How did they even keep going after the fire?"
alex: Right. Like, you hear it's a fire, and then you see the videos and the images of it. It's catastrophic. It's not just a fire. It's an inferno, and it knocks out so much of the building, and yet it just won't die. The building is totally intact after that. All of that old growth lumber, uh, it either caught fire really, really well or held you know- Yeah
alex: like, very, very well. So there was all kinds of things happening through the 2000s. I mean, it's arguable that those were the, like, the worst and hardest years in Saginaw. So, um, it's very hard to make the case for restoring a train station when things are kind of in, uh, in, I mean, almost a free fall. You know, you've got- Yeah
alex: the housing crisis happening. Um, there's all kinds of things happening. And then, and then, um, and then they just kept, they [00:17:00] just kept going. You know? They would do smaller things that they could do. Um, you know, they would paint the doors or they would, or they'd restore some hardware or, you know, something.
alex: But just keeping the taxes paid was enough. Mm-hmm. And, and this is a huge thing with a lot of preservation stuff. If you look at the newspaper articles from 1991 or 1995 or 1997, it's the same conversation each time, where they're like, "Why would we even bother?" And they take, you know, they take surveys from the community, and the overwhelming consensus is, "What are you even thinking trying to save that place?"
alex: And, you know, I understand. That, like, that's- Yeah ... that's a very, uh, that's a very good question when you see the burned out husk of a building. Right. Right. But at the same time, um, if you would- You know, if you took a time machine and you go forward 30 years and you look at the opportunities that are currently ahead of us, um, no, no one would have ever thought that it could become a transportation hub again [00:18:00] or that- Yeah
alex: uh, there would ever be a use for it in any way. Um, but I think that what this organization has done is prove the effectiveness of mothballing, that as long as it's here... In fact, this is something that was very early on. I remember being at a city council meeting, um, and a hero of mine, Greg Branch, was, uh-
phil: Greg
alex: he was saying, um, you know, "This may be the 11th hour. This might be, you know, 11:55 of the 11th hour. Uh, but so long as the building is there, you can work with the facade. You can, you know, do a whole new building behind the facade. Uh, you can mothball. You can retain it, but if it's gone, it's gone." Right.
alex: "There's nothing you can do." Um, and so I really, you know, I really think that there's a lot to that idea of just as long as it's here-
phil: Yeah ...
alex: we can do something with it, and that's, I think, the importance of a group like the Saginaw Depot Preservation Corporation, is we have an explicit, uh, task of keeping this building going and making sure that this is a viable project and that it keeps going into the future.
phil: To, to [00:19:00] build on what you just said, one, we gotta give Greg Branch his dues 'cause every time people bring up Greg Branch, they're like, "He was a, he was a hero of mine." Yeah. Like, "Greg Branch was the man." Yeah. "Greg Branch was the leader. Greg Branch was th- was this person, the, uh, the, the emotional center." Like- Yeah
phil: like so many people. And when I think about, I came to this work, um, after he had passed, and he, he is definitely one of the folks that fills me with regret. Like, like, I wish I could have- Present, yeah ... wish I could have just talked to him.
alex: He was one of the very first interviews I did when I started my documentary on Saginaw.
alex: Really? Yeah. I was, um, he was number two. Really? And, and he was the first person that, you know, that people were saying like, "You gotta talk to Greg if you're gonna talk about the history."
phil: Yeah.
alex: And so when I joined the Historic District Commission, he was the chair at the time. Um, and I only had three months on the HDC with him before he passed.
alex: Really? And, uh, it, that three months was a masterclass. I mean, just seeing how he would go, uh, to council. The people who [00:20:00] are, you know, some of the biggest opponents of preservation would even say, "I liked that guy."
phil: Yeah. Yes.
alex: Yeah. So, like, if you're able to do that, and- Mm-hmm ... and he had a wit about him, too, that, that was really, uh, uh...
alex: There's this one article that I saw that was, like, a letter to the editor, and in the '90s when they took down the Feege Building.
phil: Yeah.
alex: He was there. It was him and Tom Mudd, and they were, um, really trying to knock some sense into people of like, "We don't need to lose this building." And one of the council members apparently said, "One man's trash is another man's trash, and the Feege Building is trash."
alex: Mm. And Greg wrote in a letter to the editor, "A less myopic person might say- One man's trash is another man's treasure. And that, that line kills me 'cause it's just like so- Yeah ... like just that one sentence- Yeah ... says so much of like, God, is that real? Yeah. You must be a blast to have dinner with. You know?
phil: Well, a- like what Greg's response I think is also such a testament to Greg in that like s- s- [00:21:00] and this has been one of the, the- evolutions of, of my relationship to this work is like, like sometimes you gotta, you gotta come out and be confrontational. Yes. Like, sometimes, like it, it's not just... We lo- like unity is important, and community is important, coherence is important, collaboration, all of those things, very important.
phil: But it is, it is possible to also turn those things into weapons or to- Mm-hmm ... use those things in disservice for the community i- because then you put like unity and agreement above what is actually important and good and true and should happen. Yeah. And so like, like Greg, Greg, uh, it's, it struck such a great balance of that and like, li- like, yeah, I'm about this community, and it's important, and like we should be a community together.
phil: But if you're gonna come out and say like one man's trash is another man's trash-
alex: Oh, that, that-
phil: Like- ...
alex: deserves rebuttal ...
phil: yeah, it deserve- Yeah ... like we have to be very frank about like the untruth of, of that. Yeah. Um, w- so w- um, I [00:22:00] d- I, while I'm thinking about it, I did not get to meet Greg.
alex: Mm-hmm.
phil: Uh, but Greg did the branding for Riverfront Saginaw.
alex: He did. Yeah, he did. Actually, um, the, uh, We Build video-
phil: Yes ...
alex: uh, he wrote that. Did he? And, uh, and I had, you know, the privilege of, of, uh, of kinda getting the handoff from that. Uh, 'cause he passed away right after he was asking me about some footage. Really? And, and I got a call saying like, "Hey, Greg was running with us.
alex: Um, would you, would you run with it from here?" Wow. Uh, 'cause you were the last person to talk to him about this. Wow. And so, uh, to take that script and then, um, to bring that to life right after he had passed was probably one of the most emotionally heavy v- you know- I believe it ... projects that I've ever had.
alex: I believe it. Um, not to mention, too, that it's about, you know, how great Saginaw is. Yes. You know, the fact that I got to use his words in that video, um, was just... Y- yeah, yeah, that was, that was a huge privilege. And, uh, and he just had [00:23:00] so much in here. Mm-hmm. You know, like the amount of institutional knowledge.
alex: Yes. Um, there are so many people who carry so much with them, and I wish that we could just put a thumb drive in their brains. Yeah. You know? And just offload everything that they know because there's nothing like the kind of life experience that- Yeah ... people like him have.
phil: Tom Trombley, can we, can we put a hard drive in- Yeah, he was
alex: from
phil: mind.
phil: Yeah, can we put a hard drive in your brain? Like, he's one that just immediately- Yes ... popped in my brain. Yep. Like, we got, we need to download your entire brain- Yep ... for the record because, like, th- just one of those people. Um, yeah. The, uh, when, and the, something else that you were talking about that a- Greg said about mothballing, and you gotta keep it here.
phil: Yep. Uh, like I just wanna build on that for a second in saying when it comes to these historical buildings- They will literally never be built again.
alex: Yeah.
phil: Buildings like this will never be built like this again. [00:24:00] And the, the, the math of it doesn't work. The construction cost, the labor cost, the different community.
phil: I mean, like, this w- this was being built at the time that S- Saginaw was being billed as the Chicago of the North. Mm-hmm. And, like, like every- The lumber
alex: capital of the world ...
phil: lumber capital of the world. The trees that were felled here built Chicago. Yep. And, like, you, you had that. The community is obviously different, and so we'll never get buildings like this again.
phil: So when Greg is saying, like, "When it's gone, it's gone," that's a permanent thing.
alex: Yeah,
phil: definitely. You, you will never see a building like this again. And so if you do tear it down, you've gotta be 100% sure that you can't build something out of it. And I think that's such a testament to this group that for almost 40 years has just been believing in this place.
phil: Yep. What, what to you is, is the takeaway to, of that? I mean, you were talking about before when w- before we started recording about how community work [00:25:00] is really, really hard.
alex: Oh,
phil: yeah. Like, it's very heavy. There's so many obstacles. The thing that you believe in gets shot down, doesn't pass. It's, everything takes 10 times longer.
phil: And then you think about this place, the arson, the, the roof, the roof collapsing, the tower. Yeah. The, like the disbelief. What's the takeaway for you? There were the lesson that you learn from this place when you're applying it to the work that you're doing now
alex: I mean, I don't think there's a better encapsulation for the city of Saginaw.
alex: Um, for things to be literally on fire in the 90s, pretty accurate. Um, the, the, the way that this place is not just a testament to what this place was, um, but also what it can serve as.
alex: Mm-hmm.
alex: Um, I think that the biggest, I don't know, I would say the biggest takeaway is just the fact that like there's always something you can do.
alex: Mm-hmm. You know, and, and the way that, uh, these [00:26:00] impossible problems we find solutions for, um, when you're actually committed to a building too, like if your job is to keep this thing standing and they say, "Well, the roof's gonna cost $100,000," and you don't have $100,000, of course you're gonna enlist mountain climbers and get some shingles donated.
alex: You know, you're gonna figure out a way to do it. Yeah. Um, it's just that there's gotta be the will to find the way. Mm-hmm. And I think that so often these old buildings are easily disregarded as, uh, the junk that's an eyesore that needs to get out of the way. Um, but it's really the infrastructure for everything in society.
alex: You know, everything takes place in a building. Um, there are so many things that this place, uh, held too. You know, like you can think about the energy of, uh, the people going off to war in the '40s who had to go through this train station. You know, um, they're... The same thing in World War I too. Um, there's this, there's this Ellis Island element to it as well where you show up [00:27:00] and, uh, this is your first impression of the city too.
alex: Yeah. Um, and I think it's, it's one hell of a first impression, you know, to look at, at this everything was oak. Yeah. The, the floors, the wainscoting, the walls, the ceiling. Yeah. Everything is oak, and it's the most expensive way possible to do it, and that didn't matter because we needed to make an impression.
alex: Yeah. Um, and I think that the fact that these types of things are neglected or that, uh, the impression that they should be making is now making the wrong impression, it doesn't take much to take it to a point where it's, where it's just impressive again. Yeah. Um, it, it really takes a thought and it's too easy when you're overwhelmed with the amount of old buildings that there might be.
alex: Um, uh, uh, there was a housing study that I saw that they were bemoaning the fact that most of our infrastructure was so old and- All of these houses are incredible and irreplaceable, even the [00:28:00] smaller ones, you know? Um, it doesn't have to be a lumber baron's home. It doesn't have to be the guy who owned all of these railroad companies.
alex: Um, it could just be the older housing stock that can just withstand. Yeah. And withstanding, I think, is the key because I think that we've gone way too far into trendiness, um, to chasing the next big thing. Mm. In the '70s it was the malls and highways and all of this stuff, and now the malls are dying and the highways destroyed neighborhoods.
alex: Yep. And the-
phil: And honestly, the- It's so... Yeah ... the, the malls destroyed downtowns.
alex: Yeah.
phil: And we were like, "Oh," like, "people don't wanna live in cities anymore. We're gonna build the malls in the suburbs so that people don't have to live there." And then now what we're doing is we're realizing the consequences of that.
phil: Like, we, we have sprawled our infrastructure out to such a point we can't support it. Um, we are disconnected from each other because we don't have an urban center where we walk down the sidewalk and we're like, "Hey, Alex Mixthere, how's it [00:29:00] going, buddy? Haven't seen you in a long time." These spontaneous interactions, these third places.
phil: Yep. These, these, uh, postcards where v- visitors come and they walk down town of figure out what is this city all about. And the... We're, we're reaping the consequences of trendiness. Yeah. When you look at it, the entirety of human history, w- like, what makes great communities? They're slow. Yeah. Like, you can't get away from them really fast.
phil: Mm-hmm. Everybody's concentrated well. The buildings are of quality. You have frequent spontaneous interactions with people, all of these things. And now we're waking up to the fact, like, well, chasing these trends really destroyed so many things and you're talking s- Oh, yeah ... like, to Lucas- It costs us. It costs us thinking of, like, buildings.
phil: Like, well, we just recreated these buildings out of styrofoam and stucco. And now n- now, like, 10 years later we're wondering why they look like garbage. Yeah. It's like, well they- How are they
alex: already falling apart?
phil: Yeah, how are they already falling apart? And when, like, this building... I mean, like, let's, let's be honest, like, it looks a little rough.
phil: [00:30:00] It's still here, though, and it's withstood s- a century, arson, collapse, all of these things, and it's still... You can still make something from it. Oh, yeah. Because they were like, "We need to build this thing out of
alex: oak-
phil: Yeah ...
alex: and brick." The, uh, the beams that hold this thing up, I swear, are, like, more than a foot- Yeah
alex: of just, like, pure tree.
phil: Yeah.
alex: You can tell that they just felled that tree and just said, "Take it to the station." You know, just rough cut it- Yeah ... and we'll just put it right up.
phil: How thick is that thing? Three feet? Yeah. Throw it up there. Let's get more of 'em. Yeah. Let's do it. Um, we, we've kind of alluded to the viability and the future of this place, the foreshadowing of it.
phil: Yep. So we, we are past the point of l- let's just save it so that we can figure out what it could possibly be. We're really in, like, we have an idea. Yeah. And we have this idea, and now we have studies that say, like, this idea is viable. Like, we can- Yep ... actually do this thing. So give me a little bit of a, a [00:31:00] picture of the current status of, of the project and where it's heading.
alex: So this is actually, um, a great opportunity to talk about this because of the fact that we get so many questions about, like- Right ... did STARS buy the train station or, or any of this?
phil: Yeah. And I, and I just wanna i- interrupt for a second. Like, that's absolutely fair. Like, like- Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah ... like, you guys are living and breathing this project, you're inside of it, and it comes across social media every once in a while s- when something happens.
phil: So that's a huge reason why we're- Yeah ... doing this. Like, no shame involved. We wanna keep you informed, we wanna keep you in the loop. Yeah. So
alex: continue. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And, and the, the thing that happened, uh, through STARS that is incredible is that we've always been, you know, advocating that this is possible.
alex: Yeah. That this is doable. And what STARS did is they took about $400,000 and they put that into a study to figure out where their headquarters should be, and they explored other locations. Um, community input and all of those other things, uh, the viability from a structural engineer's perspective- Mm-hmm
alex: because I've gotten to a point that the only people who [00:32:00] I really trust about whether or not a building is doable are the people who can stamp drawings and say, like, these... Yeah ... you know, like the structural engineers are the people who I wanna talk to because vibes do not save buildings. Like,
phil: vibes do not save building.
phil: Vibes do not save buildings, and vibes also... Like, when you go off vibes, like- Like, we don't know what we don't know. Yep. Like, you can, you can look at this place and be like, "Yeah, demo it." And meanwhile, a structural engineer who knows and seen thousands of buildings like this go like, "No, do not
alex: touch-" Yeah
alex: "this place." They were genuinely shocked at how good of condition it's actually in. Really? Yeah. All the way from, you know, the west end to the east end, level all the way across with those beams.
phil: Really?
alex: So everything is held up by cast iron supports. There might be floor joists that are broken from, like, water damage or things like that.
alex: Yeah. Um, this building went four years without any kind of roof. There wa- Those pictures are insane because there is nothing above it. It's just brick stops. It like, it just, it just halts, and there's nothing above it. So the fact that it was able to withstand that much [00:33:00] and have that much kinda, you know...
alex: Just look at the rain we had last night.
phil: Yeah.
alex: Uh, that happening for four years straight, and yet- Still solid. Um
phil: Goodness gracious ...
alex: there's, there's nothing like it. And so when they say, so I'm actually taking a general contractor class right now. Um, and I'm in the middle of, you know, chasing down a GC license.
alex: Yeah The instructor in this class says, uh, 'cause he's talking about code, and he's like, "You know how they say they don't build them like they used to? I say, thank God." And I'm sitting here like, "Dude, I don't think
alex: you
alex: understand- Yeah ...
alex: what that expression actually means."
alex: Slowly raised the hand, yeah. Yeah.
alex: Like, like I understand that there's some fire hazards with balloon framing and things like that- Yes ... you know, but all that. But like, speaking of fire hazards, I mean, at the same time, the, the, the integrity- Yes ... that these things retain. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I mean, like, the engineers came through. It was all, it was all glowing.
alex: Uh, obviously it's not in the best shape. It's not move-in ready by any means. Yeah. But the fact that it's [00:34:00] doable, um, you know, a lot of people will... This is another common thing that you hear in the preservation world, it'd be cheaper to tear it down and build something new.
phil: Yeah.
alex: Uh, the new thing they're gonna build is, like, a Taco Bell, and like, yeah, that's, that's way cheaper.
alex: For sure.
phil: 100%,
alex: yep. That's way cheaper. Uh, it's also made of plastic and particle board.
phil: Yes.
alex: Um, that thing left, you know, unattended for eight months, it's gone. Yeah. I think that thing is completely gone. And
phil: honestly, like, you've created a negligible asset for the community. Like, like- Yeah ... you've made it all so ubiquitous.
phil: Like, like- Yep ... I remember when I first started traveling for work, um, I got really sad driving because here I was on, on this adventure. Like, I'm, I'm going- Yeah ... to these new places and this is gonna be so awesome, and then you're driving for 12 straight hours and every exit you see, you see Advanced Auto Parts-
phil: Walgreens, McDonald's, Wendy's. Uh-huh. And you drive down and you see Advanced Auto Parts, Taco Bell, Wendy's, McDonald's. Yeah. And you, like, every five-mile [00:35:00] strip you've essentially rubber-stamped or, like, stamped out, like, the same form of America. Copy,
alex: paste.
phil: Copy, paste. Copy, paste. Yeah, yeah. And so, like, you've, you've lost your entire identity, which we'll talk about, I'm sure, in a second when we get to- Mm-hmm
phil: generally historical preservation. Um, so tell me very plainly, like, what, what is the dream of this place? Like what- Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah ... what is the actual thing that we want this to become?
alex: So currently, um, our best shot right now, uh, there's a lot of interest, uh, through Stars. Um, they would like to make this their headquarters, and they have plans for all of Potter Street too, where, where there's all kinds of things that they would...
alex: There's a lot of, like, n- new construction that would be done.
phil: Yeah.
alex: Um, so there is, uh... That train, by the way, I'm wondering if that's that steam engine. It
phil: has to be. It sounded
alex: exactly- 'Cause that was a little
phil: hoot, hoot ... like a s- It's the g- It's the go... Hey, look, you can see it, the smoke.
alex: Should we pause? Can we g- let's go see it[00:36:00]
phil: Coming. Alex is running.
phil: Evdo. What?
phil: Wild
phil: Is this real life?
alex: He's calm.
phil: This is like the ghost of Potter Street here.
alex: Well, actually, this is the tracks right here too, that like, uh... This is the, uh-
phil: This gra- oh, yeah ...
alex: passenger area that you'd be waiting on. This is the landing platform.
phil: Really?
alex: Right here. So all of this concrete right here is where you just stepped off to actually get on a train
alex: There's all kinds of like old tracks and
phil: stuff like that that are just now underground Yeah, that bell's swinging. [00:37:00]
alex: Yeah, like right here you can actually see there's like more tracks. So what did, why are they bringing
alex: the train? So what I heard was that this was like the annivers- or this was like the, uh, the employee appreciation thing that they do.
alex: Oh, okay. But there have been people who have been like restoring this, uh, train engine for like years and years and years. So the fact that they are taking it to the tracks, apparently this is where it was home until the '50s. Really? So like this was, like this is a Pierra Marquette train, and this is the Pierra Marquette train station.
alex: Um, so the fact that it, it's, it's on our on our tracks again is pretty unbelievable. 'Cause I haven't, I've never seen anything like this. There's actually a picture that I gotta show you after this that's, like, uh, this exact engine basically, but it's, like, right over there looking the other direction.
phil: Really?
alex: Yeah. So it's pretty cool. This is pretty cool.[00:38:00]
alex: Quick little, little field trip
phil: And interview over. Yep, we're all good. Wow, that was wild.
alex: Yeah, that's a... See, this is why we do sidewalk talks, you know? Like, like this is-
phil: That w- that doesn't, you don't get stuff like that in the studio.
alex: To think we would've just been sitting somewhere else.
phil: What a, what a... I mean, it's, it's kinda wild. Like you said on the, on the tracks, like here's a Pier Marquette station.
alex: Yep.
phil: Pier Marquette train.
alex: Yep. It is incredible, um, how much of a real history there really [00:39:00] is here. Yeah. And the fact that it's not constantly celebrated is, uh, kind of, it's kinda beyond me.
phil: Yeah. And it ... this, this station gives us an opportunity to re-celebrate it.
alex: Yeah. Oh, absolutely.
phil: Which I, which I think is, is so s- such an important part of the, the history of places is, like, yeah, i- every, every place has a history that changes over time.
phil: And w- and it's really easy to say like, "Oh, I wish, I wish that, that we were like when we were in the '50s." Or like- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... we, you know, i- you know, insert frame of time that we all kind of idealize as the golden era of our communities. Yep. And I think what is inherent in that is our responsibility to challenge that by saying, "And we can be even better than that."
alex: Oh, absolutely.
phil: So let's, let's get to work. And I think that's the importance of history. Like, if we did it once, we can do it twice.
alex: Yep.
phil: And it just, it's gonna take some work.
alex: I remember talking to, uh, Mayor Moore, actually, [00:40:00] about, about preservation. And there was something that she said that kinda stuck with me, which was, "I don't, I don't want the Saginaw that I grew up with.
alex: I want a Saginaw that's better." And the, the only argument that I had to that was like, "And, and we can do that with the buildings we have, though." It wasn't-
phil: Yeah ...
alex: you know, uh, there's always this thing that I've noticed, especially with the older generations who remember, like, Morley Brothers being downtown.
alex: Ask anyone over 50 about the, the Christmas displays in the windows at Morley Brothers. Mm. And you will watch, like, it's like A Christmas Story, you know? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Like, their eyes light up- Mm-hmm ... and they get really excited about it. Um, and so much of that was about, you know, those window displays on that building that was there since, you know, like the 1860s, 1870s.
alex: Um, and all of that infrastructure that we had, you know, like, there are, were great businesses. There were great small businesses. But w- we still have amazing stuff right now- Yes, we do ... that are in the same buildings, too. Like, you go to Old Town, and I've always found so much irony in the fact that people are like, "These buildings are useless."
alex: And then you [00:41:00] go to Old Town, and all the small businesses are in the old construction.
phil: Yep.
alex: The new construction isn't necessarily as sought after. And it's always more expensive, too.
phil: Yeah.
alex: So the fact that we have so many young people, this is the first thing I observed when I moved back to Saginaw, young people are opening small businesses in, in old buildings.
phil: Yep.
alex: And that's just, like, the-
phil: Yep ...
alex: that's just the, uh, the narrative that I think gets missed, is that these, these buildings are being used. But I think that the novelty ... This is train station problems. Conversations are always drowned out by, uh- ... screaming train whistles. Yeah. But, um, but yeah, the, uh, the way that this infrastructure can be reused endlessly, there is- Yeah
alex: there's kind of an irony to me that, uh, the novelty tends to take over- Yeah ... where people expect it to be George Washington's house or bust, you know? That it has to be some really important person, uh, when I see it as just incredible infrastructure- Yes ... that is i- endlessly [00:42:00] recyclable.
phil: And I think about, too, because a lot of my work revolves around, um, attracting and retaining people to a community.
phil: Mm-hmm. That kind of layer of it, the economic development layer of it. In these buildings, you have something that people want. Yes. And more than that, you have something that people want that no one else has.
alex: Mm-hmm.
phil: No one else has a Potter Street station. No one else, like, the... I call it the Huntington Bank building.
phil: It's not anymore. Yeah. But, like, no one has a building like that. Nope. And so that creates, in and of itself, a value proposition just from an attractive standpoint that like, yeah, you can go other places, but you can't get that here.
phil: Oh, no.
phil: You can't. And that comes down all the way to the stories that we tell.
phil: Like, yeah, you can go get pizza l- anywhere else in the country you want, um, but you can't go to Old World Pizzeria-
alex: Yep ... '
phil: cause Eric is here. Yep. Um, like you can go get w- m- Chinese food, Vietnamese food, whatever, but you can't talk to Tino.
alex: Yeah. [00:43:00]
phil: And like, like, that's why I get pho from, pho from Tino. Yeah.
phil: Like, it's just 'cause o- 'cause of Tino. And so, like, these buildings create, in and of itself, like, an, an intense attraction. Mm-hmm. And, um, there's a curiosity there, and there's a story there, and it's really indicative of a place that says like, "We love ourselves enough to take care of places like this."
alex: Yep.
alex: And honestly, I think that, um, one of the worst things that we did actually over, over the, uh, 20th century was when the malls and everything that we were talking about happened, um, it's almost like we were like, "Is that what you want us to be? We'll be that." Mm-hmm. And so we tore down blocks of downtown to build a downtown mall- Yeah
alex: and to build this massive parking deck too. And the irony is, and I've been doing all this research 'cause we're doing a historic district study of this area, um, all of that infrastructure that we lost to urban renewal and these ideas that we need to catch up with the suburbs, we ironically enough destroyed all of the infrastructure that [00:44:00] makes us unique- Yeah
alex: and the actual value- Yeah ... that our downtowns hold- Yeah ... and that these buildings, uh, y- like, you know, provide for us. Yeah. Like, the Morley buildings were torn down to create Morley Plaza, and this is in the '80s. They had extra money to do it. But the Morley buildings today would be apartments in no time.
phil: Yeah.
alex: And- Yeah ... there are... God, I remember interviewing this guy who's an architect on, uh, one of the buildings in downtown Detroit, um, and he was telling me that they're running out of buildings to fix. Oh, no. Like, that's the new issue in Detroit- Yeah ... is we don't have any old buildings left. We,
phil: we need more old buildings.
phil: We
alex: need more of them. We
phil: need m- more old buildings.
alex: And it's- Can
phil: anyone find more old buildings?
alex: But like we saw this exact same thing happen 'cause they did the Bancroft and the Eddy and then it was like- Yeah ... you know, there was kind of a brick wall from there- Uh-huh ... of, of, you know, what do we do from here when there's nothing to build upon?
alex: And so I think that people think that we're trying to, like, lock everything in place and to make sure that nothing new happens- Mm-hmm ... that we need to all be wearing [00:45:00] tricorn hats, and that we need to be talking about the past constantly. Mm-hmm. But to me, I think it's people first, infrastructure supports the people.
phil: Yes.
alex: So if you ha- You can't- You could not possibly predict a Tina Sekosi. There is no way you could ever take that story and like To come up with it on your own- Mm-hmm ... of, you know, fleeing a country and then being placed in a community by a church network. And, and then your mom just starts making spring rolls one day.
alex: Yep. And like the, the fact that that is how she ended up in that building-
phil: Yes ...
alex: in particular, it's called the Emily Block, I think. But, uh, that building in particular is, is just a building that was available that someone like- Yes ... her could go into. And she lives upstairs, she works downstairs. Yep. To me, that is the epitome of the American dream.
phil: Yes. And be- because that building existed, and s- to clarify, still existed-
alex: Yep ...
phil: and it was attractive enough and [00:46:00] gave them an opportunity to build that place, she is now a part of our community. Yep. And w- I think that really highlights what you're saying is that people first, yes, but without the infrastructure, we don't have the people.
phil: Yeah. And so these buildings are really opportunities for us to be better and for us to bring value to each other, and for literally our lives to change. And the better the buildings we have, the, the history of them, and if they are new construction, I don't wanna like poo-poo new construction 'cause we do need it.
phil: No, absolutely, yeah. Like, and like w- like we need new construction. Like we're looking o- Yeah ... opposite and like we need new stuff. But the better we do that and the more people first, like we're not just building homes, we're building pe- homes that people are proud of. Yep. And that they can live in. They can say, "I c- I could live, I could live here for the next 30 years and be happy."
phil: That only makes us better. And I th- and I love the what you're saying, like you're, you're not just a building hugger, you're a people hugger. Yeah. But you understand that [00:47:00] buildings keep the people here, and they change their lives, and they can change our lives, and it's really a f- a tool for people.
alex: The, the reason why I, that I actually became a preservationist, because believe it or not, I've only been one for like eight years.
phil: Yeah.
alex: You're a newbie. Um, yeah, yeah. And, and I lived in Chicago and didn't care about preservation at all, which is insane because Chicago is one of the greatest architectural cities in the world. Amen. So the fact that I didn't really pay it any mind at the time, although I used to say that like the best thing to do when you're broke in your 20s and you have nothing else that you can do, is to go look at old buildings and walk around.
alex: Because, you know- Mm-hmm ... they're just there and the- Mm-hmm ... it's free to look at stuff.
phil: Mm-hmm.
alex: Um, but the thing that I noticed right after I moved home was exactly what I mentioned, that there's all of these younger people who are starting all of these small businesses in these old buildings. Yeah. And so when you start paying attention to the people, you start noticing where they're at.
alex: And so when you look at Frolia's or- Mm-hmm ... the Bread Guy or The Red Eye-
phil: Mm-hmm ...
alex: or you know, the Hamilton Street Pub, [00:48:00] or Retro. I could go through all these old town, you know- Yeah ... all these old town businesses. All of them are in old buildings, and they're all in a local historic district.
phil: Mm-hmm.
alex: And that local historic district was protected- By a historic district commission to make sure that that integrity was there.
alex: Yeah. And, and, and that we have that kind of infrastructure to work with. Because the other thing that I noticed right after I saw that there's all these people opening businesses is why isn't that happening downtown? And the story that I was paying attention to then, um, was that downtown was still coming down, that they were still tearing down- Mm
alex: the infrastructure we had downtown. So there's this major dichotomy. Mm-hmm. And, you know, Saginaw's river is, uh, a huge part of its story. Yep. But you, you jump over the river and you notice that, you know, in one part you have all of this economic development, and then all this investment too, all these new apartments that they're- Yeah
alex: building, these condos they're building.
phil: And block- They're
alex: building on top of.
phil: And block for block the best food- Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah ... that I have seen in any community, and I've been to [00:49:00] hundreds anywhere.
alex: Yep.
phil: You- I will, I will put the food on the, the three or four blocks of Old Town Saginaw against l- literally any place.
phil: And it, this, not to throw shade in, int- to downtown folks, SVRC Marketplace, you're, you're amazing. Like, I just wanna make sure, but I'm just talking, like, pure density. Like, block-for-block, I will p- pit it against any place in the country.
alex: It's the most high concentration-
phil: Yes ...
alex: of talent, too. Yeah. Of... A- a- and I was so, I was so nervous in COVID when it seemed like every business was closing up.
phil: Yeah.
alex: And the thing that I think just blew me away about the community we have here is that everything that's happening in Old Town is so necessary-
phil: Yeah ...
alex: that there wasn't a, uh, there wasn't an Amazon version of it. Nope. So, like, if you're gonna get your hair cut, you know, you, you could go to, you go to Old Town for that.
alex: Mm-hmm. You, you can't order that online.
phil: Yep.
alex: All these, you know, all these restaurants, not only were they surviving th- through takeout, but, like, [00:50:00] these, you know, these institutions, l- like the hospitals, were, were placing these- Yeah ... massive orders to keep these places going, too. Yeah.
phil: Co- Covenant had their, their daily, like- Yep
phil: we're c- we're getting catering from one of these businesses for our hospital.
alex: That was huge.
phil: Huge.
alex: And an incredible decision on their part.
phil: Yeah.
alex: Um- Thank you to them ... you know, to do something like that. Absolutely. Because there was, uh, a need for that, but also the fact that these businesses were there and- Yeah
alex: and they're useful, you know? It's, it's about the actual, um, usefulness of what you're, you know, like what you're offering.
phil: Yeah.
alex: And if we don't have these buildings, the best thing we can offer, you know, from there is kinda like an art fair environment of throwing up some tents and, uh, and, you know, having some tables out there.
alex: But man, brick-and-mortar institutions with a storefront, that means something.
phil: Gotta have 'em. So th- the, the idea generally, we wanna turn Potter Street Station into, uh, the future of the STARS Transportation Hub. Yep. Uh, you, uh, you made a post, [00:51:00] uh, recently that... And you made the comment, like, "I've never felt better about the future of this project than I do now."
phil: Yeah.
phil: Why do you feel that way, and what is it gonna take from here? I mean, there's obviously a lotta work between now and when that becomes a reality. So why are you feeling good? What is it gonna take to turn this thing into a reality?
alex: I would say it's the team that we have right now, honestly. The, the people who are on board now, um- The board is, is very small but mighty.
alex: Um, it is me a- and Alex Larson, uh, Cody Smith, uh, Denise Meyer, and Bob Tanner. And this group is able to really pull together resources from every corner. You know, Denise is everywhere. Mm-hmm. You will run into her- Mm-hmm ... at some point, and she will be advocating for the station. She lives and breathes it. Um, and then, y- you know, Cody and Alex and I spent two summers on this roof.
alex: Mm-hmm. Um, just working our buns off and working in the sun and working in the wind and working in the rain, uh, to, to [00:52:00] keep, to keep this place dry, you know? And the fact that that kind of, that kind of initiative is paying dividends right now. Mm-hmm. You know? Like-
alex: Mm-hmm ...
alex: I think that what we did with the roof is going to drive all of this forward more because I think that when you have a roof that's in the condition that it was in, um, it's easy to forget actually- Yeah
alex: what it used to look like.
phil: Mm-hmm.
alex: And, uh,
phil: and I- It's also easy to discount because as soon as you look at it and there's no roof, you're like, "Ah, it's just a matter of a year before this place just rots from the inside."
alex: Yeah.
phil: Yeah.
alex: And on top of that too, I remember, uh, there was a conversation I had with Alex DiPerry once when we were working on the Lee Commons, which was, um, we had
alex: We were talking about how once you fix it, people are gonna walk in and be like, "Well, so what'd you do?" You know? Like, like they- they'll have no concept- Yeah ... of what this place used to look like. Uh-huh. And so the better we make it, the more hope that people get, you know? So the curb appeal is huge. What we do with it, um, right now is important to show that we [00:53:00] care, we're improving it.
alex: And every single time we've asked, this has been true for the Lee, this has been true for here, anything I've been involved with, you ask and people show up. Mm-hmm. We need a dumpster, someone donates it.
phil: Yeah.
alex: We need this, you get it. We need shingles, you get a company like Eichenhaus that says- Yeah ... "Do you need six pallets?"
alex: And we said, "Yup." Yeah. And they just came and dropped it off.
phil: I'm thinking about, uh, the time y- you reached out for a cleanup and I was like, "Well, I'll ask, ask, ask my old high school, like, football team and like-" There's 50 kids here. There's like 50 football players going like, "Give me the heaviest thing, and I will take it out."
phil: And like, you just have like a, like an army of 50 kids that have- Yeah ... no connection to this place whatsoever wanting to help.
alex: And they love it too. Yeah. You know? Like young- They lo-
phil: they loved it.
alex: There's no convincing you have to do to younger people about a place like this. Uh-uh. There's, there's a fascination that takes over, and younger people just tend to get it.
alex: And I think older people have this habit of going through the urban renewal and going through this time of like, "Ah, well, out with the old, in with the new." And ironically enough, that's how you could've retained so [00:54:00] many people, is by retaining what makes Saginaw unique-
phil: Yes ...
alex: and keeping it as, you know, this constant story.
alex: Because I don't like this idea of, um- We're, we're going through a rebirth or that we're, uh, that we died and we're coming back, you know? Yeah. I, I really- Yeah ... I'm not a big fan of that narrative because of the fact that, uh, people have been here this whole time. Yes. That people have been working so hard.
alex: There are so many organizations over the years that, I mean, just on this street alone I've done research where it's like there's all these organizations that are just doing their best, you know? Yeah. So I don't think there was ever a point where we died. I think it's just that the idea of, "Whoa, I'm gonna live in Saginaw.
alex: Good luck." Like, there's this- Yeah ... stupid narrative that takes place.
phil: Stupid.
alex: That makes, that makes it so you completely write off the whole city. Yeah. As if geography has anything to do with- Yeah ... with what happens in a place. Mm-hmm. You know? Like, this place was chosen because of its [00:55:00] strategic importance.
alex: They put Fort Saginaw where they did because the three rivers merge and create this inland, like you have this route straight to the Great Lakes, which means straight to the world, you know? You, you had everything that you needed right here, this abundance of resources. And every single time that we've, uh, lost one industry, we figure else, or we, you know, we're gonna figure something else out.
alex: Yeah. So when all the lumber dried up, they, they switched right over to farming. They pulled up the stumps. They planted beans, beans everywhere. That's why we had a bean sign. That was a bean silo, you know? Mm-hmm. Uh, and then after that, the, the car starts picking up, and they need parts, and we're making car parts.
alex: And there's this one company that helped, you know, improve the steering column, and that revolutionized things for Buick. And then there's all of these major things that happen, and then that dies off because of outsourcing, but then we still have a plant right around the corner from here that's like one of the last remaining foundries-
phil: Hmm
alex: that can make engine blocks-
phil: Mm-hmm ... [00:56:00]
alex: for all of these cars. Mm-hmm. And, uh, y- you know, they're about to invest 150 million into that plant. Hmm. And that's where my girlfriend works, too, and it's, it's amazing to see, like, the, the kind of, uh, the kind of legacy there is there, the multi-generational thing. I think she's, like, third generation GM- Yeah
alex: at this point. And, like, there's just all of these, there's all of these long-running stories that if you blink, you might miss that it's been going on forever.
phil: Yeah.
alex: You know? That there is no up and down and up and down and up and down. It's just whatever we're doing right now.
phil: I feel like our, like a new Saginaw motto should be, "Saginaw, we'll figure it out."
alex: That's perfect, honestly.
phil: You know?
alex: I, I would not, uh, I would not fight that slogan at all. I think that that's, I think that's exactly it. You know- 'Cause that's how I feel about this place. Yeah. Like, what are we gonna do? I, we'll fi-
phil: We're
alex: gonna figure- We're gonna figure that
phil: out ... what can, what can we do right now?
phil: Paint that door. Yeah. Let's just paint that door. We'll figure out the next thing. And like, well, what can we do right now? Let's clean up some of this stuff. Well, okay. We'll, we'll figure it out.
alex: Well, the other thing too, on the note [00:57:00] of why I'm so excited right now, um, another huge factor, you know, aside from the team that we have, is that there is so much, uh, like there's, there's a lot of new funding for historic preservation.
alex: This morning I got an email from the State Historic Preservation Office that there's a new grant program that just got announced.
phil: Really?
alex: So they got $25 million approved across the country, and- Oh, baby ... now we get to put in applications to see. So they do pre-development work, they do brick and mortar stuff, and that kind of strategic, uh, grant hunting is gonna be everything.
alex: Yeah. 'Cause this was done through a grant with the roof. That was half a million dollars through the state.
phil: Yeah.
alex: So the fact that there are all of these programs available, and we know how disadvantaged these types of projects are, there's so much that people want to, like, support with. And there are so many companies that this is gonna be the coolest thing they work on all year potentially too.
alex: Yeah. Because there's- Yeah ... so much, um... I had a friend who was [00:58:00] actually helping at the Lee with, you know, some engineering stuff, and he was like, "I was working in a dollar store before this, so this is awesome." "I love," you know, "I love doing this in particular." Thank you
phil: for giving me this very difficult labor.
phil: But,
alex: like, people love being part of it, you know? Yeah. And there really is something to the whole idea of, like... I mean, there was a board member, um, a couple years ago who his grandfather worked, you know, here. And so there's a direct connection that people have with the place. And I think that even if you did tear this down and build a replica, you lose all of that.
phil: Yes.
alex: You lose all of that energy.
phil: Yep. It's
alex: gone. Uh, you can build it brick for brick, but there is something about, um, going through these buildings and you find something that's from 1890-
phil: Yeah ...
alex: and you're the first person to touch it in- Probably 100 years, you know? Mm-hmm. And there's just this feeling of continuity of, uh, the people who came before you, and that there is always a present moment going on.
phil: Yeah. [00:59:00] There, there was a study done about the, the, the, the importance of story, and the researchers took, like, 75 items, and they put the items on eBay- ... and to see how, how they sold. And, um, then what they did... And it was just, like, shoes. A, a pair of Nikes, you know, like, like, very matter-of-fact, like, this is what they are.
phil: And then they did it again with the same items, um, but every description had a story with them. Hmm. Like, the, uh, like, "These, these s- these Nike shoes were, were worn by my son. It, uh, his eighth-grade basketball championship." You know, the, the, like, real stories. And the value of those items, it was something like 75 times more-
phil: money-
alex: That makes sense ...
phil: per item.
alex: Yeah.
phil: And I think what you're t- what you're speaking about speaks to that, is, like, the, the, the story has an inherent value. It's the- Yeah ... story that makes it valuable. It's the history that makes it [01:00:00] valuable. Yeah, you can brick for brick make a, a replica, but everybody knows that's not the real building.
phil: Right. Like, when you, when you go to, like, historic, you know, Vicksburg, and you go walking into, like, this colonial town- Yeah ... and y- you see on the plaque, "This is a, like, a replica of," blank and blank, you're like, "Oh."
alex: Yeah, there's a bit of a disappointment there.
phil: Yeah, like, "Aw."
alex: Oh, it's
phil: good. Oh, okay. Like, I don't c- I don't care if it looks crappy or half of it's missing or whatever.
phil: Like, I want the real house, man.
alex: I'm a huge fan of retaining just pieces, too. I was in, um, Michigan City, I wanna say.
phil: Uh-huh.
alex: Um, and there was this, this, like, gateway to a park, and it used to be the facade of a bank. But they just kept the big, imposing elements, like the Corinthian columns and things like that.
alex: They just kept that facade and used it as a gateway into a park in the middle of downtown. Oh, wow,
phil: yeah.
alex: And I just thought that, like, the utilization of pieces is huge, too. Yep. And, um- Yeah ... you know, the powerhouse over here is [01:01:00] not in, in great shape- No ... at all, uh, by any stretch of the- No ... imagination. It's-
phil: I'm, uh...
phil: You can't, you may not be able to see it on camera, but it is a pile of things.
alex: It has become a one-story building. It... There, there's a-
phil: Yes.
alex: Yeah, but I've... You know, like, we've had a million conversations about that building because it's like, do you just tear that down? Uh-huh. And I'm maybe a crazy person.
alex: Could be.
phil: You're a little
alex: crazy. Jury's still out.
phil: Yeah.
alex: I'm okay with it if I am. But the idea of removing the rubble and the debris, and then seeing what's there still, and then figuring out what to do with that-
phil: Yeah.
alex: Um- Yeah ... the kind of open air things that you could do with that, as long as it's, like, stable and not gonna fall on anybody- Yeah
alex: I think that there is such a fascination that people have. Like, I was endlessly captivated two days ago when I was over here flying a drone. There are, like, old bricks buried, like, 20 feet off of the sidewalk, and it's the [01:02:00] old sidewalk of Potter Street. Oh. And seeing that in the dirt, those little glimpses that you get, I- Yeah
alex: like, the f- y- you know, like, like the road around here too. Yeah. There's all these little glimpses you get of the old brick- Uh-huh ... and there's something to that- Yeah ... that I just adore, you know? Like, I don't think that that's anything that's like... Those are the only potholes I like- Yeah ... you know?
phil: Yeah. Yeah, Downtown Bay City was, was, uh, redoing some, some roads, resurfacing the r- the roads in- Oh, I saw this
phil: downtown, and they, they peel the asphalt off, and they're, they expose the brick.
alex: All the streetcar tracks were
phil: there too. All the streetcars' tracks underneath. I was so mad. And I have never seen a more universal excitement about something in Downtown Bay City than that moment. Yep. Like, y- y- at, over the course of the days that the, that road and those tracks were exposed, five people, 10 people all taking pictures of the street.
phil: All day. 'Cause they're like, "Oh, my God, those are the original bricks." And it's like, "Yeah." They're like, "And that's a train car tracks." It's like, "Yeah." Like, "This is what it used to be. Like, [01:03:00] this is crazy."
alex: I, dude, I refuse to believe that people don't care about this stuff. Yeah. I think everybody has an inherent, uh, an inherent, like, interest in it.
alex: Yeah. And, um, I just think it's kind of up to us to make it, uh, tangible, to make it into something that people actually can, like, discover that with. 'Cause for me it was the Lee.
phil: Yeah.
alex: You know? For me- Yeah ... it was the ability to, like, actually put my hands into something and say, like, "Oh, wow, this is actually longevity."
alex: Mm. You know? This is, uh, the same room that a lumber baron slept in, uh, and now it's my office.
phil: Yeah.
alex: You know? Like, there's- Ah ... there's a very weird- I work here ... long-term thing that happens there.
phil: Um, I, my studio is in the old Case Funeral Home.
alex: Mm-hmm.
phil: And that makes it cool. Like, people come over and I was like- Oh, yeah
phil: "You know anything about this building?" He's like, "No. It's like a case funeral home." Like, "Wow, cool." Yeah. Like, "People used to be embalmed upstairs." Like, "What? Wow, that's crazy." Yeah. Like, "People say this is the most haunted building in the city of Saginaw." [01:04:00] "What?" Uh-huh. And it's just that awe and that wonder and that curiosity that, that carries with th- these historical structures.
phil: So what... Talking about the future, um, what, what has to happen between the here and now? It's, it's, it's money, right? Like, it's, it's- Oh, it's always money, yeah ... it's, it's, it's hard work, it's hope, and then it's also grant funding. And, uh, and I think, like, I just wanna highlight that for folks too, because they're looking...
phil: We're, we're all looking at this building going like, "Okay, we're, we're 40 years into this project." Yep. Like, "When is something going to happen?"
alex: Yeah.
phil: And w- w- something will happen when somebody, like people, like this group, puts in the grant application for some of that $25 million, and we get a million of it.
phil: Mm-hmm. And then we can do that thing. And then m- more grant applications and rejection, rejection, rejection, rejection. Yeah. And then another one, and you get 500,000. Now you can do that thing. [01:05:00] And now you can start hitting bigger home r- like, maybe instead of a single, like, you can hit doubles and triples now.
phil: Now there's a
alex: tipping point
phil: to it. Now you get two and a half. Yeah. Because they're like, "Oh, we can r- like, this is really viable." And then somebody running for office one year is like, "I will do this for you, Saginaw." And now we have the th- the gates open, and now this thing is happening. And so- Yeah ... and all of that takes time, and it's gonna take more time.
phil: And so, uh, like I just, I just really wanna commend your group and, and like, and not just the current group, but anybody who has been involved in- Absolutely ... any capacity in saving this place over the last 40 years because not only is th- can this still be a, a, a valuable, important, incre- incredibly useful asset for this community, but there's also very important lessons for all of us to learn when it c- comes to making our places and our communities better.
phil: Mm-hmm. In that, like, whatever it is you think is very hard and is taking too [01:06:00] long right now-
alex: Yeah ...
phil: f- four decades.
alex: Well, the other thing, too, and, and this is probably, like, the number one takeaway that I've had from doing any kind of advocacy work 'cause- Mm-hmm ... um, in March, I had the privilege of leading, uh, the Michigan delegation to go to Washington, DC to advocate for historic preservation funding.
phil: Mm.
alex: Um, and we went to as many reps and senators as we could. Uh, we knocked on the doors and, you know, we scheduled meetings and, uh, and we had these one-on-one conversations. And the thing that I learned from that that I haven't been able to shake is, uh, if you're not there, how are they gonna know you exist?
alex: True. Because it's not just that, like, it's hard to find these types of things, you know, to begin with, but you start looking around at who's with you in that office, and you start noticing all these other advocacy groups- Mm ... for, like, veterans or people with disabilities- Mm-hmm ... or, you know, education.
alex: There's all of these things that people have made their entire [01:07:00] thing, and it's not that one is more important than the other. It's that everybody has their thing that they're pushing. Mm-hmm. But if you're not there, how can they know that it's important? Because they're gonna have 50,000 other things come across their desk that day.
alex: Yep. But maybe they'll remember the train station guy. Mm-hmm. You know? Maybe- Mm-hmm ... they'll be able to actually put some funding into the things that they might not have thought of before, or just bringing a representative through the building is huge. Um, and so that's kinda taught me, too, like, you're not gonna get money from just being around.
alex: Yeah. You're gonna get money by applying for it. You're going to get money by making the case for it. Um, there is always a pot of money for something. And, and I feel like with a project like this, um, I always hear there's- I, I don't, I, I shouldn't say always actually 'cause it's not nearly as often as you'd think.
alex: Yeah, yeah. But the people who are, who, who are very vocal about like, "They should tear that place down. What a waste of money." Mm-hmm. "They should put that money into the roads." "They should put it into the schools." [01:08:00] Yeah. It's just like you can't do that though. Yeah, yeah. You can't take road money-
phil: Yeah,
alex: yeah
alex: and put it into schools. Yes, yeah. Like it just doesn't work that way. Yeah. So you have to find these pots of money that exist, and there will be something for, you know, like the most niche interest. Uh, there is one philanthropist out there who said, "I wanna help people who wanna do this type of thing."
phil: Mm-hmm. "
alex: And if they're doing it, they got my support."
phil: Yeah.
alex: And so when you have those types of foundations and those types of, you know, uh, uh, grant opportunities and things like that, um, it's gonna be a combination, I think, of, of a bunch of different funding sources. Yes. And the other thing I learned too is that money...
alex: This is actually something I learned in the, um- And the Incremental Development Alliance, actually. Yeah. Uh, there was a class I did there, um, where they were talking about how cash is like lumber. If you don't like your cash supplier, go to a different one.
phil: Mm-hmm.
alex: If you don't like your lumber supplier, you just go to a different one.
alex: Mm-hmm. And there's always going to be a source you haven't [01:09:00] thought about. There's always going to be a grant program that is incredibly niche. I was at the MHPN conference, like, two weeks ago, and there was an entire, uh, whole session about a grant program for former transportation facilities that are being reimagined for future- And it's just like, "What?
alex: That's, that's us." Yeah. You know? Like- Yeah ... we should, we should be there in that room screaming right
phil: now. Yeah, yeah. The Foundation for pr- the Preservation of Victorian Train Depots.
It's
phil: like- My people.
Yeah.
alex: I'm currently looking for the foundation for homes of, uh, videographers and things like that- ... that need, that need, uh, new bathrooms.
alex: But-
phil: Awesome. I, like, I, but before, before we stop recording, I just, I w- I wanna say personally thank you to everyone who's ever been involved in this project, and not just for the project itself, but, like, really for the inspiration that we can all take in whatever it is we're trying to accomplish in our community, and [01:10:00] that, like, you, you just gotta keep doing it.
phil: Mm-hmm. You gotta do the next best thing. You gotta do small things, and then finally, like, you gotta have hope. Like- Yeah ... you gotta, you gotta have the hope that sometime, an- all of that work, all of that time, all of that effort is gonna coalesce into making that thing happen. And we, we live in such a culture that is so instantaneous that we're, we're trained, like, if it doesn't happen over the course of a single city council meeting, like, "Oh, this, this community's beyond repair," like- Mm-hmm
phil: "and, and we can't save it." Or like a year or two years or five years, like I was just talking to Marlana Cork this morning. We were talking about the CAC Gala, and she's like, "People that were honored at that ceremony have been doing this community work for 40 to 50 years."
alex: Mm-hmm.
phil: And we g- we get very impatient, like, "Oh, I've been doing this for two years or four years."
phil: And f- like, like no, if, if we take up the mission and the purpose of places like [01:11:00] this, of issues like this, we are also taking up the burden that we're gonna be at it for a while.
alex: Mm-hmm.
phil: And, uh, it's such an inspiration. So I would ... I have, like, stacks of questions that I still wanna ask you, and Jamie Forbes, g- good mutual friend, sent, sent me a message.
phil: She was like, "Make sure to talk to Alex about this one thing." And we don't have time to do that, but I would love to ha- Sorry, Jamie. Sorry, Jamie. But I w- Jamie, I will have Alex back for, for a repeat. I did, like, three episodes with you, Jamie Forbes, so I can do two with Alex. Beautiful. Uh, because I, 'cause I would love to talk more about specifically the, the future of not just this project, but also this neighborhood.
phil: Like, it, like what, what, what's being done to help this place, um, and then get in the weeds more with historic preservation. Um, so if you're down for coming back, I'm down for having you. I'm always
alex: down. You know where I'm at too. Awesome.
phil: Alex Mixter, a pleasure as always,
alex: my friend. Always.
phil: Thank you.
alex: Thank you.
alex: I'll see you on the sidewalk somewhere.[01:12:00]
phil: Men, I would just like to say I am glad that we have shared this experience. This
alex: is the coolest. Yeah.
phil: Like- This is
alex: awesome ...
phil: the conversation- That's once in a
alex: lifetime type stuff ...
phil: to be here talking about this place as that goes through, like-
alex: Poetic ...
phil: it's ve- very, very cool.