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Welcome to the Guernsey Finance podcast page.
Our podcasts bring you all the latest news and insight from Guernsey, the global finance specialist, as well as audio from some of our online events.
Brandon (00:03.861)
Hello and welcome to the We Are Guernsey podcast, where we bring you interviews with leaders from the global finance industry, as well as news and developments from Guernsey's financial services sector. My name is Brandon Ashplant and I am senior strategy and technical executive here at Guernsey finance. Guernsey is a leading global finance center working with clients and businesses across the globe to deliver industry leading expertise, products and services.
The success of the industry here is underpinned by economic substance, political stability and asset security. And we are committed to the cause of sustainable finance. To find out more about Guernsey's success in sustainable finance, tune into our sister podcast, the sustainable finance Guernsey podcast. Today though, I am delighted to be joined by Samuel Boesonquit. Sam has recently been a panellist at Guernsey's private wealth Forum, where he sat on the changing families panel.
discussing the globalized nature of the typical high net worth family, the changing attitudes and investment strategies as a result, and the role of jurisdictions such as Guernsey in all of this. Sam is family office services director at Schroeder's family office services team, where he both runs family offices and provides additional resources to single family offices. He has worked in the industry for the last 10 years and has extensive experience in the experience with multi-jurisdiction families.
philanthropists, um, and has complicated holding structures and managing personal interests under his belt as well. Sam is a fellow of the ICAEW, a chartered member of the CISI and an affiliate member of STEP. So without further ado, welcome Sam.
Samuel Bosanquet (01:46.807)
Morning, Brandon. Thank you very much for that introduction.
Brandon (01:50.617)
Very good to have you on today. So firstly, obviously I've done a bit of intro there. Just tell us a bit about yourself and your career to date from your perspective.
Samuel Bosanquet (02:00.846)
Of course, sure. So as you said, I work for Schroeder's Family Office Service. We are looking after approximately 200 families spread across 30 jurisdictions. And these families range from inherited wealth through to entrepreneurs. You won't be surprised to hear that no two of them are alike. And we provide a different range of services to all of those. But how did I get here? How did I end up doing this job? I did a degree in natural sciences at Durham University.
For me, that was maths and physics. And then went on to become an accountant afterwards. I trained with a firm called Blick Rothenberg in London. And what was fascinating about that is I worked with a lot of medium-sized family-owned businesses doing their accounting and doing their auditing and really seeing how the nuts and bolts of family business worked. After that, I moved into investment banking, where particularly I worked for BMP Parabar in Royal Bank of Scotland, both in London. And that's where I first started to interact with family offices.
A lot of those were my clients, and I was providing various products and services to them for their day-to-day activities, from hedging to investment products. Stayed there in that sector for a while, and then about 10 years ago, so 10 years ago I joined a family office called Sandaire. Sandaire's one of the first multifamily offices in Europe, and that's where I started looking after families full-time. So I've been looking after some of those families right through to today. It was about three years ago, during lockdown, that
Schroders acquired Sandaire and became what was called Schroders Family Office Service. If you like, Schroders recognised there was a need and a desire to offer a service in that space. Sandaire had a lot of experience, a lot of knowledge for looking after families over the last 20 years it had been running. And really what it did is it brought together that knowledge and experience with Schroders as a resource, as firepower, as its large institutional offering to offer something,
quite unique for families. And for me, that's been a fantastic journey to go on from starting out as an accountant all those years ago, working with family businesses, to working with family offices in my banking days, to then being able to bring together a sort of boutique and a significant institutional resource into one space.
Brandon (04:10.749)
Yeah, that's quite a varied career. And obviously having studied sort of, um, yeah, sciences, uh, you know, there's those subjects at university and then sort of coming from that angle was quite, it was always quite interesting because usually it's the, and sometimes you hear from the economists and the, and the finance students that sort of land in these jobs, but it's, it's nice to have a variety as well, isn't it? It's interesting. Everyone's kind of bring something else to the table. Um, so as I mentioned in my introduction, you obviously spoke, um, our annual Private Wealth Forum, uh, this year, um,
Uh, specifically on the, the changing families increased mobility and generational handover panel session. Um, you spoke on the panel about this, um, uh, about this, but, but you can elaborate as to what, how the approach towards families has changed since you began in the industry. So, you know, just tell us about how things have changed over the last, you know, 10 or so years and, and since you, yeah, since you arrived in, in that, in, in the industry, if you like.
Samuel Bosanquet (04:56.61)
Of course.
Samuel Bosanquet (05:03.634)
I mean, it's actually really quite a broad question. I've had a broad career, as you said. When I look at what we offer and show this family office services, it's a very broad offering. It's not just pure family office services, but obviously you've got philanthropy alongside it, banking, lending, investments. It's a huge range of services that families need. So there's a lot of different points I could focus on. But I think maybe if I was to pick a general trend, it would be a broadening of families' interest,
but are narrowing focusing on skills and objectives. And frankly, a lot more professionalisation in what family offices are all about. So I focus on three of those parts I mentioned, the family office itself, maybe the approach to philanthropy and investments. Your family offices go back 10 years. A lot of them were pretty informal, those single family offices I was interacting with across London, often a friend of a friend running the enterprise for the family.
Could have come from all sorts of backgrounds, some pretty loose records and decision making, lots of Excel, lots of testing out new waters and finding their feet. It was quite a different world to the world today that I find us working in, which is very professionalised, where we have families' records recorded in a framework document where there's procedures around payments, where everything is recorded, everything is reported through consolidated reporting apps.
It's a whole different beast to what it was 10 years ago. And I think that's probably a good thing, in all honesty. But it's allowed families to go along that journey and actually get the most out of what they're doing. If I was to think about philanthropy, I think families have become a lot more focused on the difference between charity and philanthropy itself, with philanthropy being the aim of changing something for the better and not necessarily just about giving money. It's about the processes and...
and finding sustainable solutions for problems in the world. Obviously, it's a big part of what we do. We have a philanthropy team here at Schroders and in our wealth management business at Cazenove, who help families put the right people around them to tackle those issues and to really get the most out of it. And then last, I suppose, on the investment front, we family officers have never had more opportunity to invest in different things. The range of asset classes you can go into is huge.
Samuel Bosanquet (07:24.134)
You won't be surprised to hear that the private assets has been the big sort of driver over the last few years. If I was to look into the Schroder's stable, what we've seen in Schroder's capital, where they're offering private equity, real estate, some green infrastructure, I mean, it's been a huge success. And that's really mirrored the trend in the industry as a whole. Families want those asset classes. I think what I'd say is the real change is they tend to home in on fewer
larger positions in private companies, in infrastructure assets, or delegating to more professional institutionalised providers. I think gone are the days of a fairly loose pick and mix approach to choosing private assets, turning up some conferences, meeting someone over a coffee and deciding it's a good idea. Those days are long gone. I think, unfortunately, lots of people have seen the downside of that approach.
I think the industry as a whole has really fine-tuned and focused on what it's delivering for the families.
Brandon (08:28.065)
And I appreciate I'm going a little bit off script here, but I have to pick up on that point you made around philanthropy, because it's an interesting trend. Because obviously we hear lots of talk around, you know, the rise of sustainability impact investing, um, in conjunction with sort of next, you know, this whole next gen, um, so the, these themes and issues all in tandem. But actually it was an interesting point you made there in the sense that actually whilst, um, whilst, you know, charity is still, still here with us and as it was, you know, 10 or more years ago, actually this idea that philanthropy is a long-term,
process and project that a family commits to over the long term is how does that contrast with the rise of sustainability over the last few years and the rise of impact investing in your mind?
Samuel Bosanquet (09:07.457)
Um...
I'm not sure if I take contrast. I think they're additive towards each other. I think the word sustainability in people's minds is often equated with all things green with the type of investing. But actually, if you're thinking about philanthropy, what you want is a sustainable solution, i.e. something that can continue forever and can really solve a problem. And those are often structural issues. And I'm privileged enough to work for some very successful entrepreneurs who have used their brain, their nous,
Brandon (09:18.925)
Mm.
Samuel Bosanquet (09:38.672)
entrepreneurial skills to solve problems in their respective industries who've now turned to philanthropy and view it as what they term venture philanthropy Where they're where they're trying to put meaningful capital in that can unlock change in sectors and cause your long-term Long term ongoing solutions to problems which cannot be just fixed by just applying money It's I suppose it's the concept of give them out of fish and you feed him for a day, teach him how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime
And I think that's the same in many of the philanthropic causes that people target. And certainly with the generations coming through in families, they're very attuned to the externality of their decisions in life. And the more that they can get involved in this, the more they can improve the lives of others around them, they're really keen to do it.
Brandon (10:07.255)
Mm.
Brandon (10:26.473)
Certainly. Um, so turning back to Private Wealth Forum now and continuing, you know, the discussion there, um, we also heard from Katie Royals of Pam Insight and the eprivate client, um, who joined us in September on this podcast, actually to talk about the, the latest Pam Insight research report, uh, commissioned by Guernsey Vionics, which of course launched at the event, um, on the 2nd of November. Um, one particular finding from that report was that high net worth families consider, um, political stability to be one of the kind of
know, most important kind of key tenants or factors, if you like, in choosing a jurisdiction for, for wealth domiciliation. Ahead of sort of geographic location and tax neutrality as well, which was an interesting, you know, mix, no doubt in the last, you know, again, looking back to 10, 15 years ago, that toss-up might have slightly been different, but that's where we seem to stand now. What are your thoughts on that?
Samuel Bosanquet (11:19.471)
I think it's a very fair observation. I mean, I'll take it back to the first questions. We talked about families having their broadening of interests, but are narrowing in a professionalisation of the way they're approaching their family offices. And my personal observation is it's very similar in the choice of where you're going to domicile your wealth, actually. It's been a pruning of the tree, is what I observe. I've worked with families who've got...
quite extensive structures and networks, which we set up for very good reasons, you know, back in the day. But now they're thinking, actually, do I need all these structures around the world? But the administrative costs and the hassle that comes with are rather narrowed down, focus on fewer jurisdictions, which are more stable and simpler to deal with. So I think it actually is a reflection of that general trend in family offices that you're seeing in the same jurisdictions, in the jurisdictions that people choose to have their welfare. You know, we see it in banking on Schroder's side.
We have a very stable and secure balance sheet, and that's been really reassuring to investors and clients over the years. Why would you choose the risky bank? I suppose I'd say the same in choosing the jurisdiction to domicile your wealth. Why would you choose the risky one when there's much more stable ones out there? If I was to crystal ballgaze, what's the future look like?
in our wealth management business at Cazenove Capital, one of our trends that we point to is what we call the three Ds, which are demographics, deglobalisation and decarbonisation. And I think in that deglobalisation piece, there's an element of friend shoring. And I think that's important. We see it a lot in, if you like, in some of the emerging markets where they're centring on different parts of the world, but also closer to home. And I think that friend shoring
trend will be extended to jurisdictions as well.
Brandon (13:14.549)
Interesting. Um, and, and we see advisors developing a keen interest in business opportunities in the Middle East, um, which over the last few decades has seen enormous sort of wealth generation as a, you know, as a result of the economics of the resource, uh, rich region that, that area of the world is, um, how are advisors able to learn from their own and their colleagues' experiences in Europe with the, the long established families that they've worked with, you know, for many years now to better implement and approach, uh,
Samuel Bosanquet (13:29.324)
minutes.
Brandon (13:43.342)
approach the work they do with these emerging families, if you like, in these sorts of regions.
Samuel Bosanquet (13:48.326)
That's a great question. I personally haven't worked directly with Middle Eastern families, but I've got a lot of experience with Northern European families, which is where the families I work for are based. And I think as an observer of the Middle Eastern region.
One thing that's hard to miss is there are a number of very successful businesses which are the backbone of delivering their economy there, which are actually owned by families, right? And they haven't gone through a flotation or public offering process that you have in many of the European countries or in North America. So I suppose what that means is fast forward to this period in time where those families have grown in number, more geographically dispersed. The Middle East has to get that right, that succession point.
Because if they don't, actually the economies in those countries are gonna face some real challenges if a family feud over a key business, and sort of a power business or a water utility, if a family feud between two siblings means it can't function, and actually the region gets impacted by it. So it's actually really, really key that's addressed and thought about. I think, you know, one of my observations for the...
from Northern European families. A lot of those that are based in civil law jurisdictions have often relied quite heavily or taken comforts in the prescribed inheritances that they have. And that's nice, it's a good starting point. But as we see those family members move into different jurisdictions, be that other civil law ones or maybe even into common law ones.
They start to raise their hand and question what's right and what's fair, and that maybe some of these inheritance and succession issues should be tackled a different way rather than what's prescribed. So I suppose by extension, if you were to turn to the Middle East and apply that, you'd be thinking, well, hold on, if they're going to rely on Sharia law, yet some of the family members are not educated in the US or are living in London, it might actually not be the way they're expecting this is going to play out. So I suppose, what can advisors learn?
Samuel Bosanquet (15:50.142)
I think it's looking at what's happened in Northern Europe, looking at some of those families, trying to get ahead of the game and engage with those families in the Middle East to have a good healthy dialogue on what they want to happen and what they think is going to happen. Because it won't just impact the family, it could impact the region as a whole in terms of their economy.
Brandon (16:07.429)
Hmm. So there's actually the wider, you know, the wider importance of the actual je geographic stability and also geopolitical stability to that point as well. Um, sort of following up on that, um, I'm referring, but also referring back to the managing, managing changing families research report, which launched at the event. Um, some other key differences between regions arose as well as between families, if you like, um, and the findings found that, for example,
The adoption of technology was seen as much more important amongst, for example, US families at 65% against Middle Eastern families at slightly lower 52%. How can and should managers approach this difference, if you like?
Samuel Bosanquet (16:44.462)
Well, I think that's a really fair observation. I think technology is becoming increasingly important. You can understand in different regions of the world, they're having different speeds of adoption. But I think this is a one-way street when it comes to technology. I mean, families want it more and more.
I observe amongst families I work for that they're keener than ever to have everything in one place, to be able to see it digitally. We have consolidated reporting apps to do that. We have access to their documents. We have secure portals that families can have. The challenge for family offices is really the cost of it. For a lot of single family offices to establish those is fairly prohibitive. So it's really about being able to partner with other people.
How can advisors as a whole make the most of this? I think it's key for them to point out that within generations of families, as well as those in different regions, there's gonna be different demands for technology and access to information. Some of the families I work for see it as a key part of the communication within the family. And there's an emergence of a series of websites, a bit like Facebook, but for families themselves, just to share information on where they're going. So I think it's important that...
advisors know they've got to interact with that technology, they've got to be able to provide their information into it and they're very, how would I put it, awake and quick to point out the challenges with security on that because the families have all of their information available, obviously presents a risk to them.
Brandon (18:16.481)
And looking back at the event on the panel, you discussed how succession is a much broader topic than many typically view it as being. How has this process evolved as the younger generation becomes, I suppose, more financially involved in the family and the family business? And where has discussions around their aims changed as this dispersion of families increases, if you like, I guess, geographically speaking?
Samuel Bosanquet (18:43.614)
I'm really pleased you picked up on that because you're absolutely right. It's one of our key messages is that family success is not just a number, it's about more than financials. And as I said at the time, it's dangerous to assume that succession is all about tax. We run processes for families to build their family charters, to put together constitutions for them. And when I ask families what they want for their children, the number one...
message is health and happiness. Above all else it's health and happiness. The challenge comes around how do you actually achieve those? Historically I think there has been a tend to have a prescribed definition of happiness. What worked for one generation will definitely work for the next. You will join the family business, you will follow this route.
Brandon (19:26.816)
Hmm.
Samuel Bosanquet (19:32.022)
But actually we all know that we're different, right? And through different generations, families change. And so it's really key that we have those conversations early on. We see greater success amongst those families that target values and target purpose and fulfillment in their family's life. And that way they can build on something together rather than building on a prescribed objective
which may or may not suit the family members. So I think the big evolution to come back to this, families are actually talking about this. They're talking about it in closed, secure environments where people can safely bring to the table their views. And I think that's great. We want to make sure that the families succeed, they thrive in the ways that all the family members want.
Brandon (20:16.929)
And among the millennials and the younger generation and, you know, the next gen and all these sort of, these other buzz terms that kind of encapsulate that, that rise of, of the next, uh, the next generation to come, there is a keen interest in, in using their wealth to be good global citizens. Again, these are kind of, um, you know, I guess themes and issues we hear a lot, a lot about, you know, on an almost, if not daily basis now. Um, and it's something that's of course reflected in the, in the new research report we've launched, um,
From those discussions and your own experience, how are the younger generations seeking to become good global citizens, if you like, in practice? You know, what does, what does, what does the actual real, um, in real time steps mean for that, for that to kind of come to fruition, if you like?
Samuel Bosanquet (21:03.146)
Well, I mean, you're absolutely right. The generation coming through are, as I mentioned earlier, more aware of their externalities, i.e. the impact of the decisions they make on life than any of the generations before. And that's fantastic, right? I think they're very aware that the big challenges in their lifetime are gonna come from the environment, are gonna come from societal challenges. And they rightfully want to address those in as many ways as they can. That's where they work,
how they travel, the decisions they make, how they invest. Those decisions won't be perfect, but at least they can try. So how do we see that manifest itself across the families we work for? Clearly there's a lot more focus in the family business on what it entails, what it involves, where it's going in the future. And those discussions are much broader than maximising profit, which it may have been.
Coming out of, for the executives coming out of business school 20 years ago, it's a much broader conversation. But also we're seeing a lot more metrics being measured by families. Carbon footprint of the family and the investment portfolios in the travel, in the businesses. How is the family giving back? How are we working with our different,
different pillars of success. And that's brilliant, you know, it's a wider, broader conversation. And I think the sooner people embrace that, the better. It's not for everyone, but I think if you've got family members that are keen to discuss that, you've got to have everyone around the table engaged in that conversation.
Brandon (22:34.517)
Hmm, certainly. And following directly on from that, um, because at the event at the Private Wealth Forum, you also spoke about how sustainable investing is perhaps no longer sort of an alternative or sort of, you know, on the fringes idea. It's actually very much in the mainstream. Um, and not just with next gen actually with all generations in many respects now. How have advisors looked to educate themselves about these causes and embrace the adaption of the likes of, you know, fiduciary duty, um, as encouraged, you know, by the likes of the UN.
Samuel Bosanquet (22:43.662)
Hehe.
Brandon (23:02.481)
EP for example, how do you know how our advisors and managers educating themselves on these issues?
Samuel Bosanquet (23:09.986)
Well, I think maybe just to pick up on the last point you mentioned on the UN, I mean, they've done a great job in pointing out that any advisor with a fiduciary duty really has to be thinking about their client's interests first and prioritising those over themselves. And you think that's intuitive in what you do, but it's unfortunately not always been the case.
And in that regard, one of the points they stress is that the evaluation of environmental, social, governance factors in decision making and in evaluating options for the future is actually key in that. I think why in the clock back 10 years ago, and there was a historic assumption that
embedding ESG evaluation into your decisions, whether that's business, whether that's investment, whether that's in your choices about how you approach your life, would have a negative consequence. I think that's no longer the case. I think we're past that conversation. We talked earlier about our wealth management business at Cazenove Capital and that we've got our three Ds. And I suppose one of those Ds is decarbonisation. And we see that theme playing out across,
across what we do. And I suppose whatever your views on ESG, we are moving to a low carbon world. You've got to adjust your life to it. Otherwise you'll be left behind. I suppose to bring back some quite high level points to something a bit more closer to home. If I have to think about my Father Christmas list for this year that's going up the chimney soon, something that's on it is an autonomous lawnmower. Obviously I'm...
determined to have a nice green lush lawn, but why is it on there? It's a lawn mower that's gonna cut my grass, it's gonna be cheaper than a man, and it's gonna be powered by the solar panels it plugs into. And what's fascinating about that is we're at this tipping point where that's a sort of...
Samuel Bosanquet (25:03.542)
part financial, part environmental led decision. But what it means, the corollary of it, is that the person that makes the lawnmower, the person that repairs it, the people that provide the lawn mowing service, they're looking at stranded assets. And I know that's a really simple example, but you can extend that a lot further in life. And so for the advisors that are really awake to this and really got their finger on the pulse.
they're aware that if they're not considering these options, they may be left with assets, whether it's business assets, whether it's property, that are actually stranded for one reason or another. And so we're finding advisors are more and more keen to learn, to absorb information, to sort of, to seep into their ecosystem, threats that may be coming for their, coming along the line for their families, and to rightfully put those onto the table, even at times when it's challenging for families to consider it.
Brandon (25:56.761)
And just to finish up with a final question, there have been several reports in the last few years, various publications that have talked about this trend towards the next gen as they take wealth being unlikely to stay with their parents or their parents' advisor perhaps if this is a bit of a dynasty approach. How is the industry approaching this? Because actually this could be, if handled incorrectly or wrongly, could be potentially destructive.
Samuel Bosanquet (26:26.554)
That's a great question and a really great question to follow your previous question. Because so many in the industry think about this the wrong way round, actually. And in fact, I'll go so far as to say, if you're worried about this, then it's probably too late. And by that, I mean not too late for the industry, but too late for the family. If you've got a family with such big dispersions and views between a generation...
that it's perfectly clear to you as an advisor to that family that there's gonna be a big pivot when it comes to the next generation, your job might be at risk, then clearly you're ignoring the problem at the table, which is the difference in opinions. And we're in the business of helping families make the most out of opportunities, having a dialogue between the family members. And we wanna solve that chasm in the family rather than worry about, have we, haven't we got in there with the next generation to secure our place? Because that's fundamentally.
Brandon (27:17.33)
Mm.
Samuel Bosanquet (27:18.814)
as we were talking about in the previous question, about putting the client's interests first and solving those over your own. So I suppose the key thing is to recognise that families are dynamic, that things do change between the families within the families. And the most important thing for an advisor is to make sure that they've got a good team of people around them, that your EQ and teni are sort of on full power and you're picking up where their differences, because in that way you can help the family get what they really want to do.
discussed, agreed amongst them, and then help them thrive as a family. And I think if you're doing that, then you'll probably find that your job is secure, if that's what you're worried about, but that the family's future will be secure. And I suppose, what are the things we're looking for? We're trying to work out why they feel so differently from each other, who isn't listening, what they can do to change. And indeed, there's a bit of a bombshell at the end of your...
Brandon (28:01.674)
Mm.
Samuel Bosanquet (28:17.942)
your podcast, but should they even stay together as a family unit? Sometimes it's not the best option. You might need to go their separate ways. But I suppose above all else, the most important thing for advisors to be doing is to be focusing on what that client really needs and then let the other bits fall in place around that.
Brandon (28:35.521)
Brilliant, well thank you very much for your time today, Sam.
Samuel Bosanquet (28:38.614)
You're welcome. Thank you. It was a real pleasure talking to you.
Brandon (28:41.025)
Thank you. And thank you for joining us on the podcast. It was great to hear you talk about some of the points you raised at Private World Forum in greater detail. Thanks also to you for listening. If you enjoyed the discussion, we have a backlog of interviews on the We Are Guernsey podcast channel. You can check them out by searching for We Are Guernsey on your preferred podcast platform. We also have links to Sam and Shroders and Cazenove in our show notes. So check them out to hear more from them.
To find out more about Guernsey and its specialist financial services sector, head over to our website. We are Guernsey.com. We look forward to welcoming you back to the podcast soon, but until then it's goodbye from Guernsey.