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Get a seat at the table and build the design career you want. This podcast is for designers looking to break in, level up, and take control of their careers—whether you're freelancing, climbing the corporate ladder, or just trying to get noticed. Every two weeks, we dive into career fundamentals, design best practices, and the hottest topics in the design community.
We had to present my vision for what the product will be, and we pitched it in front of this CEO and and team. It went very well. We went back to the CTO's office and asked for a $15,000 rate on the spot. It's like it's like, I did all this work, like, I should be paid more. He's like, okay.
Tyler:I'll get back to you.
Nick:Did well, did that
Tyler:And we're officially live.
Nick:We're officially live. Exactly. I mean, this is just an experiment. And when I scroll through design communities on social media, all I see is people getting laid off, concerned about AI and how they should use it, and or having trouble finding a job. Looks like it's very tough out there.
Nick:Yet when I talk to you and listen to you, all I see is someone by the looks of it in a good job doing a good job. How did that happen? Is there a secret?
Tyler:There's probably a secret somewhere hidden. And in the journey that I've gone through, maybe we can discover it today. I mean so now it kind of sits was it sixteen years in the, I guess, design industry? Now I sit as as for this recording principal product designer, making 6 figures as you as well. Wasn't wasn't an easy one.
Tyler:It wasn't a wasn't a hockey stick as you like to say.
Nick:So no hockey stick meaning there's no, like, big explosion upwards at some point. You know, the the overnight success that took ten years to get to get there.
Tyler:Yeah. I mean, there were small mini bursts along the way I can probably walk us through. But, yes, it was navigating the the Wild West that is the the startup startup world. That's kind of where I've kind of I've kind of stayed throughout my career, and that's kind of where I've made my bread and butter. It's like the Wild West of the ever the ever evolving startup landscape.
Nick:Right. Right. So sixteen years already. I mean, that's a long time. How how did you start?
Tyler:I started by accident, actually. I wasn't actually looking to get into web design or product design at all, or I didn't I didn't even think it existed as it does today sixteen years ago. I actually was looking to get into two d and three d animation for films initially. So I'd taken this course here in Montreal. It's like a trade school.
Tyler:It's like a one year course. What you learn is basically three d modeling for, like, video games or special effects for movies. You learn everything from Photoshop, After Effects, all this kind of editing things. And I just come off, like, from school where everything was kind of art. I kind of everything was either painting, drawing.
Tyler:That's, like, kind of the path that was kind of carved out for me. In school, that's everything else I really kind of sucked at or it really didn't interest me. So, like, math, all those kind of things. But the one thing that my teachers noticed was I was really into art. Anything kind of artistic that I kinda really love.
Tyler:So that kind of led me to this program that I took. The caveat of, like or the downside of being in art is, like, you're always given great grades. Like, art is very subjective. And I was constantly getting, like, eighties or nineties out of a 100 in my art class, and that that kind of, I guess, arrogance carried forward to that three d, two d animation course. So I thought, like, I was good.
Tyler:I could just coast on on the natural god given talent I had, and then ended up ended up not finding a job afterwards. I was I found out that it was there was only, like, a thirty percent placement rate for that particular career path. So it's like, I I didn't take it as seriously as I should be. My grades didn't reflect that, obviously. They everyone got above 80, so it's like a bit of, like, a hallucination there.
Tyler:And then the the job market hit me hard. I wasn't able to find anything. I was Nice. I think a year out just trying to find a job and zip, nada. Not even an internship.
Nick:That must have hit you hard. It's like, oh, all I get is, you know, a plus, like, 90 scores, and then smack in the face. Nobody cares. Nobody gives you a job. Right.
Nick:When you say pro when you say program, like, is what was it like a a four year university program or a boot camp or, what type of thing was it?
Tyler:It was a trade program. So it's it was part of a school. Like, it was part of, like, a college, but they had, a a trade department. So they had, like, a graphic design thing. They had, like, interior design.
Tyler:Like, they had a bunch of these kind of, like, programs. Mine was, like, a year. It was twelve months.
Nick:Right.
Tyler:So, like, you're you're in there for twelve months. That's all you do kinda thing. Right. There was no there was no, like, English or other other kind of program. It's really just the thing that you're learning.
Nick:Alright. Alright. So I imagine you you being, you know, sixteen years younger than you are today. At some point, you wake up and you're like, wow. This sucks.
Nick:This doesn't work. Life's on hold. I have no job. What was that like, and what did you do?
Tyler:I was like, well, this is not gonna work. I gotta find something else, and I can't I was living at home at a time, so, like, you have a bit of a cushion there, but still Yeah. I'm from, like, a very German family, so waiting around doing nothing is not is unacceptable. So I have I have that ingrained in me. So so on to the next thing.
Tyler:Yeah. So, like, following that kind of designing path, I was like, you know what? Graphic design seems like a good a good avenue for me. Let me see if I can find a graphic design course. So I went to I applied at colleges, universities, couldn't get in.
Tyler:Again, my portfolio wasn't strong enough.
Nick:To get into a school?
Tyler:To get into a school. So I was like, okay. Well, there's another roadblock here. So then I ended up landing on a another trade school. I was looking for graphic design, but it was paired with a web design component.
Tyler:So, essentially, it was a a ten month program, five months design, learning, like, the craft, hard skills, Photoshop, learning all, like, the different tools, like, the full Adobe suite, Aleo, etcetera. And then the last five months was was learning programming. So, like, the base level, like, HTML, CSS, JavaScript, PHP, all the coding languages, which I ended up really liking, actually.
Nick:So I I imagine there's there was already a bit of an overlap, you know, tool wise for you. So did I assume it went well.
Tyler:Yes. So design part was I had learn I had learned all those tools already, like, as part of the other program. Well, not so much like Illustrator and InDesign, though InDesign, I I haven't known the last time I used InDesign. But there was an overlap for sure. But it was more graphic design focus versus, like, the special effects then.
Tyler:Right.
Nick:Right. So I I mean, I think I see a bit of overlap there if you look at today's, you know, social media posts when people are stuck trying different things, different boot camps, education, training just to find their way in. Do you think the things you've done after what you just told are do you think those are still helpful for someone who's stuck today in your position of one year plus of looking and not finding anything?
Tyler:Yeah. I think the if I'm looking back to, like, the first course that didn't ended in a in a roadblock, I still use some of those skills today. Like, some three d like, some three three d is very well, was very popular, I guess, in the last couple years. Learning animation, like, I because I learned, like, classic animation, so, like, hand drawn animation and also, like, three d animation as well. So those kind of carry forward.
Tyler:So there's, like though some past ended up not going the way I thought they should've or, like, I wanted them to, I still learned some skills that I kind of carry in my back pocket today.
Nick:Right. Like what? Like, I'm curious. Like like, what happened after? What did you do?
Nick:Is there anything that still stands today?
Tyler:I think animation is something that I I think animation is something that I've always kind of carried with me. Like, I've always wanted to static screens give me a bit of an itch. Yes. And there is a there is a a way in which you can implement animation within a product or a design that that's subtle and nice. There's a way to kinda make it overdramatic and exciting, but I've learned over the years that, like, the subtle, the better.
Tyler:It's like, the best animations are are things that in a user interview, no one would notice. But you'd but as a user, you pick it up as part of the experience, and it has a bit of quality to it.
Nick:Yeah. It looks like someone sat down, took their time, thought things through, and really gave it the care and attention it deserves. But what I actually meant with my question before was, like, so you've done two programs, you know, together almost two years, you know, but you were looking for a job, didn't find one the first time around, and then you complete your second training. What happened after? Like, did you get a job there?
Nick:Or, like
Tyler:Yeah. And, actually, like, to, like, to narrow in on, like, the second trade, because I I didn't take the first program very seriously, I was like, alright, Tyler. It's time to lock in. It's it's I can't I can't have the same mentality. So so much so that, like, I didn't speak to anyone in that in that program.
Tyler:Like, I I wanted to be, like, the best in that program. I didn't speak to anyone. I did my work. I stayed late. I did all the things that you'd you'd wanna do so much so that at the end of the program where it was, like, graduation day, not, like, the ceremony, but, like, in the the last day of the class, then I was then I started to speak to everyone in the class, and everyone was like, oh, you actually speak like, yeah.
Tyler:Like, I was it I was in absolute it talks. I'm like, yes. I was in monk mode, and I didn't want any any I don't want any new friends. I don't wanna I don't want to speak to anyone. I wanna get good at this thing that I've paid an over amount of money for.
Tyler:So, like, that that's something that, like, I think is something to learn by. Like, if you wanna do a thing, do like, put your all into it. And that's, I think, that's what I tried to do then. That being said makes
Nick:makes me think a bit about, you know, that John Mayer story where he also locked himself in a room listening to himself play and learn. And then now, like, he's, like, top 1% of his field. It also makes me think about, you know, some people get a job because they do something extra. You know, send a card, send a cake, or, you know, something silly. And then there's a discussion of, well, you know, it's you shouldn't have to, but it looks like you did in the second program.
Nick:You went all in monk mode like you like you said. So I imagine now you got, like, the eight the 80 and the 90 scores, but not everyone else got them. Like, you were top of your class. Did it did that make the difference for your next step?
Tyler:I was a I don't think so. It got me so, like, part of the that program was there it was 10 and then, like, a two months internship as part of the the program, I think, similar to yourself. So, like, you had this you had the internship, you had the support of the school as well. So on the final day, I think it was basically show and tell. We had to at the end of the program, we had to create our own portfolio that we can kind of demo to invitees that like, from different companies around the city.
Tyler:They would come they would come and kind of see. They would pick their interns, essentially. And I got picked from the top companies within
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:The group that it that it came. Nice. Nice. So then I had started on my my internship journey, which was not what I expected. I thought I'd learn a lot.
Tyler:I was doing more doing. So it was like it it felt like more of a job than I I was being mentored into learning how to do a thing. I would I would doing more, like, video editing, a little bit of web design, and some graphic design. It felt a bit weird. It was like I didn't learn too much.
Tyler:And after the internship, they used they could either keep you or or they or you kind of go on your merry way. They didn't have a position at the time. They had, like, a lot of designers at the time. So, like, it felt that they they didn't have capacity in terms of, like, work for me.
Nick:Right. Okay. So then you have, like, one year program and then another one year program of which two months was internship. All of that is behind you. What's next?
Nick:What happened?
Tyler:Next, it's finding the first job. So it's, like, mass applying that's I think at the time, like, some was some were being applied online. I think at some places, I actually just sent my resume by by mail, by snail mail classic.
Nick:You're old.
Tyler:I'm old. And some actually went to the place and handed them an envelope with my resume saying, are you are you guys applying? Here's my resume. Take it. And then I take the bus back home.
Tyler:Yeah. Very old school. Very different than I met than we do today for sure.
Nick:Mhmm. Yeah.
Tyler:So I at that point, I I actually landed two two interviews or two positions that were offered to me at the same time. The the first one, I think they were, like, a week apart. But the first one was a it was an afford I was, look, I was desperate to just get in the door, so, like, I'll take anything. The first one was a a adult enhancement company, if you can read between the lines there. Mhmm.
Tyler:Mhmm. So they they sell the bunch of pills that you can consume that will help you in certain ways. I was like, I can probably pivot after this one. I was like, what do you need me to do? It's like, well, we need some web design.
Tyler:We need some graphic design. It's like all the things that I had learned in school. I was like, okay. Interesting. I'll I'll come.
Tyler:They had given me an offer. I said, thank you. Let me think about it for like, give me, like, forty eight hours kind of thing. And then I think I got another hit, which was the second company, which was a ecommerce shop. So I went I went in with the InVue.
Tyler:It was great. They wanted to hire me, and I felt like I was in a good position. I was I was a bit cocky at the time. I like, oh, I have a I I already got an offer kind of things. Like, what can you what can you offer?
Tyler:It's like it's like, well, well, what are you looking for? Well, I'm I think the other place had offered me, I think, 30,000 to start. I was like, well, 40,000. I'm like, it's like, spit 10 on top. Like, I already have something, so what's the worst that I can say?
Tyler:And then quickly said, yeah. Sounds good. And then in the moment, like, oh, yes. But that at the side of my my mind, I was like, oh, I I must have underpriced myself. I felt it.
Tyler:I'm like, that was that was too quick of an answer.
Nick:Yeah. The instant yes means you could have gotten more, probably. Yes. Yes. It's funny, by the way, to hear the, like, the cultural differences because when you say 30 and you called 40, like, that's that's a split second between you saying thirty and forty.
Nick:I was thinking, like, they're probably gonna say 31 because that's what the Dutch company would do. 30? Well, let's do let's let's one up you. But, like, 10 up you, that's very non Dutch. So I'm I'm impressed.
Nick:For any European list listener or Dutch listener, I would say, if they have offered you 30 and the other company asks you, like, how much have they offered you, you should say, like, well, 34. You know? Yeah. But that's a bit of a sidetrack. Well, congrats on that first job.
Tyler:I was very excited. I was like, oh, I've officially made it. I I have a thing now. Yeah. Like, I was looking back.
Tyler:I was like, okay. The first school didn't work out. The second, I really put my heart in it. My efforts were rewarded, I guess.
Nick:Mhmm. Yeah. Well, you know, just just to make up the the overview. So it took you just over two years if you include the school and and trying school again, and then you get 40
Tyler:back in day. Three. Was
Nick:it a lot? Like like, for Canadian standards sixteen years ago? Or
Tyler:I mean, it was it was technically three years because I had to say I had to save the work for a year to pay for the the the web graphic design course.
Nick:Of course. Of course.
Tyler:It was like it was like $10.15 grand for the one year course. So I had to I had to work the year and then Yeah. Pay for it, and then I I worked part time while I was in school as well.
Nick:Wow. Okay. I mean, that's super tough, but probably something lots of people trying to get into design are in, you know, that type of situation.
Tyler:Yeah. I mean, I wasn't doing anything else. So my
Nick:Yeah. Of course. There comes your your German upbringing. You know? Yeah.
Nick:Do something. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Tyler:So, like, started the job. I I was struggling a bit at the beginning. I was it's my I mean, there's a, obviously, a disconnect between what you what you learn in school and then you're on the job. It's a it's lot different. I had to I think one of the first tasks I had to do was create Google Ads, and I was I was tooling away, and it just wasn't I was I was just wasn't getting it.
Tyler:I didn't I was trying to translate. I didn't create ads in school. I was just basically creating layouts. Anything visual was like a like a magazine layout kind of thing. So, like, creating a a Google ad was a bit different.
Tyler:I tried to, like, copy the styles of the previous ads and tried and tried to add my little twist to it, but they kept getting pushed back. Like, I would nothing that I was kind of turning out was was working well. Mhmm. So much so that, like, the CEO had come in, like, I think, like, a month in. He was like, like, hey.
Tyler:Do you do you like your job? Do you like what you're doing? And I was like, yeah. No. I I like it.
Tyler:I like it. And I had I was sensing there was something There was There
Nick:was some undertone there.
Tyler:There was an undertone. I was like, okay. Like, I I read between the lines. Like, okay. But, like I'm like, yeah.
Tyler:Cool. And then we won our our merry way. I'm like, okay. I have to do something here because it's nothing nothing that I'm doing is is working. And I decided to, like, stop copying, like, the other designers and, like and just, like, here's what I think we should do, a shot in the dark.
Tyler:And that ended up landing. I started to, like I started to not just focus on, like, what's what the other designer was doing. I was doing some research of, like, what other e commerce companies were doing and then crafting my own kind of thought and, like, okay. My my mini version of an AB test, like, and and mini research before research was a thing or or desk research was a thing. Ended up really excelling.
Tyler:And then I think two months in, my mentor or, like, not my mentor, but, like, the senior designer had quit. So I was I didn't have anyone to to to look to anymore.
Nick:Check to you.
Tyler:Exactly. I I was the I was swimming in a fish in a pond as a small fish trying to learn my way. I was like, oh, shit. I gotta I gotta I gotta figure this out on my own.
Nick:Yeah. So that's really a sink or swim moment to keep in the in the fish metaphors.
Tyler:Yeah. I ended up staying there for, like, four and a half years. So in, like, in that time, I was able to, like, leaps and bounds, learn what I had to do. I became the lead designer at that at that company near the end there.
Nick:So you overtook being a lead designer. You probably overtook a few of the the more senior designers that were there longer than you were.
Tyler:Actually, no. Because I was, like, the senior designer left, so I was, like, the only designer.
Nick:Oh, okay. Oh, okay. Yeah.
Tyler:Yeah. So that we I
Nick:mean, that's impressive. Like, if you don't have that protection from stakeholders or, you know, the the senior designer above you to learn from and to to get reviews from. Like, for me, when that happened to me, it really slowed me down. It felt like I gave way one and a half years of of not really knowing what I'm doing, but you being able to move up your way to lead position and and actually doing a a fantastic job is to me, it feels very impressive.
Tyler:Yeah. I think the the learning there was I was constantly as we do today, but I was constantly, like, nerding out on, like what was it? Smash Magazine back in the day was, like, one of the web design websites that you would refer to for, like, any kind of, like, Smash Magazine. I would take, like, courses online from like, it was Team Greenhouse. It's like one of those online courses where you'd learn you learn how to, like because I was doing both coding and design work, hence, the course I just like.
Tyler:We the the designers were doing HTML, CSS, JavaScript, and a bit of PHP, and the developers or engineers would do the back end only. So, like, this that's how the split would be. So, like, we would design, implement, and then they would make it work, do the magic.
Nick:I mean, that's that's that's impressive interesting to to listen to. So we're we're talking about, like, twelve, thirteen years ago, and you see now that they have lots of designers are starting to pick up coding. So when you're a developer and a designer in one Mhmm. But it's actually going full circle because that's how it's always well, that's how it was, like, long ago, you know, with Greenweaver, for example, and then Mhmm. Designers building websites.
Nick:You were so far ahead of the curve. There was no curve yet.
Tyler:Yeah. It felt like because that all the designers that we'd hired, like, I had hired hired one designer designer that was in my class or the year after. Like, went to the same school, but I think we're he was the year after. He was the first one in and then another designer who who knew how to code as well. So I felt like I didn't know anything other than, k, designers code as
Nick:well. Right.
Tyler:But then after I'd move on to the next job, I realized, like, okay. Not everyone has this kind of skill set. So I guess I was in a a little bubble.
Nick:Before we continue, if you're feeling stuck in your design career or if you feel like you're doing solid work while no one really notices, we've got a bunch of extra stuff on our website.
Tyler:We're building a community for product designers to actually learn, grow, and get hired, not just scroll and collect more inspiration.
Nick:There's also articles, checklists, and courses.
Tyler:All based on real world experience from both of us. No fluff, just what actually works.
Nick:Check out designtablepodcast.com. The link is in the description. There's a clear split if if you look at the the super graphic, the designers. They have websites, you know, with very stylish letters, black and white, lots of space. Everything is rectangular.
Nick:And then you also next to it, you have the the builder designer. So we have artist designer and builder designer. You know, in those so four and a half years, you know, if you align our timelines, you've been in the same job four and a half years. In the meantime, I've had four jobs, you know, discussed last episode, tons of of annoying things happening. But then comes the moment where you decide to leave or someone decided for you that you had to leave.
Nick:Like, what happened at that four and a half year mark?
Tyler:This is a very superficial thing, but I wanted to learn the main reason I wanted to because I didn't feel like I was growing enough. I felt like I can do I think that's like the throughout my my career, it's constantly what's the next what's the next jump? What's the next step? And for me, I wanted to learn the I wanted to learn and implement CSS as superficial. I was like, I there I'm I'm very I had my nose to the ground.
Tyler:I know exactly what's happening in the industry. I need to I need to it was the switch between, like, HTML and HTML five and CSS three was, like, coming out. Yeah. I was like, I need to I don't wanna I don't wanna stay behind. I need to keep up with Yeah.
Tyler:With with the with the industry. So that's that's the main reason I wanted to kind of leave, which my employer didn't like, so he kept offering me more money to stay. I was like, crap.
Nick:Well, it sounds like that what if if they offer you money to stay, it means that they really like your work. But then I mentioned, like, if you felt like you wanted to do more, did you, like, have talks with your employer? Like, hey. I want to do more of this. Can I do this within the company?
Nick:Or was there secretly another reason why he wants to leave?
Tyler:No. It was that was a thing. And he like, the CEO offered, like, yeah. We couldn't I can you couldn't do that here. It's like, well, that would that would require an entire refactor of our entire app if I were to do it in practice.
Tyler:It just like and that like, the ROI of doing a refactor of an existing product that's generating an incredible amount of revenue, it just wasn't there. Like, we were also supporting, like, Internet Explorer six at the time. Like, that was part of our workflow, was to support older browsers that would shave years off your life trying to support. I was just like, the architecture wasn't evolving, and I I really wanted to kind of get better and learn a new
Nick:Alright. Alright. So the the that conclusion of the refactor on ROI not being worth it, was that your own conclusion, or did the CEO tell you that you because of it, you ended up in some sort of break situation?
Tyler:No. That was my own conclusion, and I also wanted to I just wanted to try something new. Like, I'd I'd done it for I'd done the thing. We had grown the user base from, like, 1,000,000 users to, like, 3.2. Like, everyone was rich except for me, so I need to move, like Yeah.
Tyler:Let me let me move on and do the next thing.
Nick:Okay. Well, I I mean, this sounds like like this is more exciting than the TV shows I'm watching in my spare time. What happened next? What's the next episode?
Tyler:So I had found a new place. It was another ecommerce brand. It was a so it was a ecommerce brand, but it had physical products. So it was a subscription service for new parents Right. Where you can have, like, diapers, wipes, shampoo, like, all the things that you like, a a new parent would need or a parent with a young toddler would need shipped directly to your house so that you didn't have to kind of go to the store and get it done.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I I imagine. And you as a parent of one with twins on the way, you know, saving a few trips to the store can really help navigate the exhaustion that you feel. Yeah.
Nick:So, yeah, sounds like they will be very rich too, and hopefully, you as well as an employee there.
Tyler:Yeah. So I took the job at a pay cut, actually. I was very I was so much I was very adamant about learning something new that I took I took a pay cut to to land at this new place. Mhmm. I'd kind of haggled back and forth.
Tyler:Like, I'm looking for this. Like, oh, the best we can do with this. I'm like, in a year, we can renegotiate your salary, and we can bump you up. Like That's tricky. That's pretty tricky.
Tyler:I was like, okay. I'll I mean, I'm still bright eyed, bushy tails. Like, I believe you.
Nick:Do you want the contract? No. No. No. I believe you.
Tyler:Yeah. Yeah. I could I guess I should have had that in writing. Yeah. So I started I had to I had to take a I so I started the company.
Tyler:I was they were looking for someone they were looking for a, again, a hybrid, like, someone who can design and code. I had to take a developer test, which was which was was good. It's like an implementation task. So basically, they gave you a Photoshop file of a landing page, and you had to implement it and make the form work. So it's basically a landing page with, like, you know, hero section section form.
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:You had to I had to make I had to add form validation, and I had to make the submit work.
Nick:Right.
Tyler:That was part of the test. Right. Aced it.
Nick:Yeah. Of course.
Tyler:You know? I mean, give me a break.
Nick:Yeah. Come on.
Tyler:Yeah. Make it hard. Make it harder on me.
Nick:And, you know, dear listeners, no help from Chet GPT or Claude or or whatever. That's just raw Tyler skill there.
Tyler:I yeah. No. I did it in, like, jQuery. I may have looked at, like, a Stack Overflow, if that's still a thing.
Nick:It's yeah. Yeah. Good old days. But let's not talk about the good old days. Go ahead, please.
Tyler:Yeah. So I to that, I was also doing the physical product design because I did do, like, the packaging design, which for for all the the SKUs that we had. It was a very interesting experience.
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:Ended up staying there for, I think, a year and a half, maybe two years, and then I just decided to go on my merry way. The I had a very big mistrust of the CEO at the time and how he was running running things. A bit shady to be to be transparent.
Nick:Okay. Okay. Yeah. I mean, if the trust is not there, you know, it's probably smart to move somewhere else. Right?
Tyler:Yes. And good timing too because a year later, they closed down. So I was like
Nick:Because of the because of the reasons that you suspected?
Tyler:Or For the exact reasons I suspected.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. So so your your your radar, your red flag radar was
Tyler:Yep. I was I was sniffing something, and it and it was poo.
Nick:Yeah. When there's smoke, there's what what do they say?
Tyler:There's fire.
Nick:There's there's fire. Yeah. So when there's a smell, there's a poop is what you're saying.
Tyler:Exactly.
Nick:Yeah. Okay. Okay. So now you're I mean, that's something I I've seen in a few different careers where someone stays at their first job quite a long time. Mhmm.
Nick:And then they leave because they want something else or something better, but then the quote unquote job hopping starts. Yep. Did that continue for you? Because now you see four and a half years and one and a half year, and you're going somewhere else again.
Tyler:Yep. So my my next place is actually where I interned at the first when I out of school. So they had been reaching back out to me, like, every couple years. But I was a bit annoyed that they didn't keep me, so I was like, nah. Yeah.
Tyler:No. Thank you. And then eventually, I said, yeah. I'll come I'll come pick you up.
Nick:Was that from desperation? Like, oh, man. I have nothing, but I need something. Well, okay. Sure.
Nick:Or did they improve or change anything?
Tyler:They were no. They're the same. They were still they were it was an agency. So they're doing a lot of agency work. Though, like, in my head, like, the I wanted to learn CSS three.
Tyler:Now the new my title was, I think, web designer. I think at the end, like, I had ended that last job, the social media manager had left, and I had take taken on doing the Facebook and Google Ads plus web design work. So my title was content manager slash web designer, which was odd. But the the new title in the realm was u x UI UX designer. That was when that was starting
Nick:to hit.
Tyler:It's like I'm like, oh, that looks fun. I should be doing that case. Yeah. In my in my head, it was like, when these new titles come up, the old one is gonna be deprecated. That was like my thinking.
Tyler:Hop on to this new thing or else I'm gonna become out of date.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't matter if on the day to day, it's more or less the same. Exactly. It's just, you know, you you cannot hold it as an individual if the market just starts calling it something new, new label.
Nick:You have to jump ship. So you're a UI UX designer now.
Tyler:So I'm a UI UX designer now. Yeah. I it's a lot of really good good experience working at at an agency, to to be fair. Like, you get exposed to a lot of different projects.
Nick:Oh, yeah. For sure.
Tyler:A lot of different sorry. A lot of different experiences. So, like, I feel like it, like, speeds up your career because you get exposed to, like, 50 different projects, like, from that in that span, which was is very helpful.
Nick:Mhmm. Yeah. And and and 50 different projects also means there's lots of different stakeholders with their own quirks, different ways how things are run, different colleagues, different designers. So you're learning so many different things. So, yeah, age all four agency work.
Nick:If you have a chance to to do it or consultancy, you know, you'll learn a lot.
Tyler:Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. I I stayed there for, like, four and a half years. So, like, it didn't stay in agency.
Tyler:It they they pivoted to a product, an an an AI product. That was the the beginning like, the first wave of AI. So this was yeah. This is not the now, but, like, classic AI, which was no prompting. You have to they we had we had hired people with PhDs in
Nick:Yeah. In computer science and all the machine learning stuff.
Tyler:Exactly. Yeah. Which was interesting to learn as, like it's good to see, like, how AI has evolved since that day and how it was, like, very it was very only the engineers or these these super smart people can can leverage AI, but now it's available to everyone.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I I know the the the type, like, extremely smart back end people working on a scheduler for people working in shifts, for example, and how to best schedule people so that there aren't or aren't any gaps or just very few gaps in everyone's schedule, that kind of thing. I remember those days as well. Yeah.
Tyler:Yeah. So I I I think I started UI UX Designer, and then I and then I got promoted to director of UI UX near the end there. This was they had pivoted their products, so they needed, like, a head of the department. So Impressive. Yeah.
Nick:Which was Did you have a team?
Tyler:Yeah. I had a team of two designers. At some point, it was three, but it was, like, two designers. Yeah. It was it was an interesting time to kind of work on a on a new space that was, like, a black box for me.
Tyler:We had to like, the start of the project to the when they pivoted, the CTO gave everyone a AI one zero one course for a month so that, like, we can speak not sound so dumb and speak the same language as the as the as the AI engineers or, like Uh-huh. The smart people in the room. So it was good to have, like, the same like, because at beginning, we're, like, doing like, it was internal, but, like, internal user interviews. Like, but we were just like, like, what are you saying? Like, what what what term is that?
Tyler:Like, and then at the end, we're like, okay. Now I understand what you're saying. Now I understand what the pipeline builder is. Now I know understand what the these different methods are. There was like, that the experience I carry with me today because, like, some of those like, I I understand the underlying concepts of how AI works, not just, like, the surface.
Tyler:I learned this. I have to prompt a certain way and be more specific. I actually understand, like like, how these different AI methods are actually work under the hood, which was interesting.
Nick:Yes. That sounds very interesting. What I also think is very interesting is that you suddenly are, you know, head of a department. You have a team of two or three. Two questions.
Nick:Like, what type of manager were you in a sense of you know, how much design did you still do? Were were you more of a player coach or, like, only managing? And then and then second second question is, did you plan for becoming a manager, or did that just happen to you? And if it's the second one, how did you respond to your new responsibilities there?
Tyler:Yeah. I was a I was more of a player coach, so, like, did the work as well. To answer your second question, I asked for it. We they were going through this this pivot, I think the CEO and then the CMO brought me into the room. It's like, what do you like, long term, what do you see?
Tyler:I'm like, I want I want, like, a higher position. Like, I asked I I straight up asked, this is what I want. I was I was very versus today, I was very bold back in the day and very aggressive. So much though, like, an example, during that time, we had my manager, which was the CTO at the time, we had to present my mock ups or, like, the vision for what the product will be. And we pitched it in front of this CEO and went very well.
Tyler:We went back to the CTO's office and asked for a $15,000 rate on the spot. It's like it's like, I did all this work. Like, I should be paid more. He's like, okay. I'll get back to you.
Nick:Did well, did they?
Tyler:Yes. Yes.
Nick:And what did what did they say?
Tyler:It's like, yeah. They were gonna give it to you, but we expect a certain level of execution, which, like, yeah, I can do that. No problem. I was very very, like yeah. I was in it in a moment in time where, like, it's like, I wanna level up and go to the next step.
Tyler:I can I can do this kind of thing?
Nick:I'm very impressed with the boldness. I think that's something you really need as a in any of the positions that you've been in so far in the first nine years of your story. You know, you need to raise your hand and and or shout things for people to hear you.
Tyler:Yeah. Because, like, if if you don't ask, no one else will. Like, I had someone I talked to, like, had told me, like, they they were like, she was asking for a raise every six months. I was like, really? I'm like, I if you're asking for every six months, I should at least do it every year.
Tyler:So it's, like, part of, like, where I got that that methodology. Heard it's like, if you ask, no one else will.
Nick:Mhmm. Yeah. They're not just going to give you it's like they're not going to knock on your door and be like, hey. Do you want a $15,000 raise? They're like, hey.
Nick:Here's one or 2%. You know? So you have to ask for it and then prove it that it's worth it.
Tyler:Yes. You got, like part of that is, like, I know I was doing the work, and then I knew I can back it up. Like, that's what gives me what should give you the confidence that that you are you are doing the work at the level that requires that same pay compensation.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Well, so it sounds like you're in a very good spot. You know, big race, doing the things you want to do, having a team.
Tyler:Mhmm.
Nick:Paradise.
Tyler:So it seems. So it seems. Yeah. I just had a thought, like, I was at the end there, I just wasn't aligned with, like, the vision of the and, like, the methodology execution of that that company. They, like, they pivoted from, like, a agency to a product.
Tyler:So, like, the agency mentality was still there. I just was like it was like fight I was fighting a bit. I was like, I had to fight for, like, two months to get user research approved to get, like, a three thousand dollar budget for which is like, come on. Let me let me understand what the you'd like let me learn and fail and, like, understand, like, who are like let let me not just anchor on what the C suite is is is doing. Like, let me learn some of this myself.
Tyler:Let me get closer to the user and who are designing it for so, like, we can craft this product specifically tailored so, like, we can we can win. So a bit of friction and, like, just, like, vision and and execution. So I decided to kind of move on, I guess. Mhmm. Well, I did move on.
Tyler:Yeah. Which was to start a new company where I was the old the solo designer this time. Right. So new product as part of the suite of this company that's been around for, like, forty plus years. They wanted to go from zero to one, which was exciting.
Tyler:And at this point in my career, I am doing no coding. I I should be very clear. I went from Okay. I think the the the last company that I left from, where I was there four and a half years, like, I was it was the UI UX became no coding. So, like Mhmm.
Tyler:The split was there. And then that's when I learned what a design system was. I was like, what?
Nick:Yeah. I mean, that's interesting. Right? So, like so start of your career, designer does front end, and then the developer does back end only, but then looks looks like front end moved moved teams, basically. They moved to the developer side of the company.
Nick:But did you miss it? Because you also told me, like, in the beginning, like, you moved companies because you wanted to learn CSS. Yeah. And now you're doing no coding. I did.
Nick:That must feel strange.
Tyler:It was. It's so much so, like, during when I was at that agents when I was an agent at the time, I was like, I spoke. I'm like, I am I am feel like I'm losing a part of, like, what I do and, like, what I like. Like, I like I love having that experience of designing a thing and then having to build it and, like, okay. It's live.
Tyler:And, like, I did that thing versus let me design this thing and then hope hope that I do my little communication thing where it's annotated, documented, and I'm going back and forth, And then it comes out on the other end with, like, a semi version of what I imagine it'd be. Like, I really like that part. But, like, the industry was shifting, so, like, that's that's not what designers did anymore. They didn't do any of the implementation, at least at the places that I I joined.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? That's that's that's worth a whole different discussion, but I'm I don't want to sidetrack from from your story because yeah. So, you know, you're doing something very cool.
Nick:You you have, like, wow. Design system. What? What happens next?
Tyler:Yeah. So, like, I joined the company. They had just started on the project. They the CPO or the head of product was doing the design stuff, so picture that how you may. So I had to come in and kind of just rehaul Yeah.
Tyler:The UX space and just, like first thing, just understanding, like, what what the team was building, what are the pain points, like, with the engineering team. I so much so, like, I interviewed, like, I had a one on one with every developer, like, on, like, my first week. I'm like, hey. What's what is shitty right now in terms of, like, from the design side? What can I help you with?
Tyler:And that was, like, my first that was my first, like, way in. Like, let me just help them design a design system. I understood that they used, like, a Material UI. So I'm like, let me design a design system so that there's not this friction between this picture that they were sending you into, like, what we're building. Yeah.
Tyler:So, like, started there and then, like, tried to, like, build a design culture of one Yeah. And ended up shipping shipping that that product within a year. No. Six months. We shipped it in six months.
Tyler:Within the first year, I think we we we did 1.1 mil in ARR, which is impressive.
Nick:I think so. Yeah.
Tyler:So, like, not necessarily, like, they would pay for all pay for all the operational stuff, but, like, it's a good start. Yeah. I was there for four years. So, like, yeah, it was a good, like, leaps and bounds from, like, where they started. It's, like, zero to one product, and then it was able to scale and be, like, part, I think, 50% of the revenue of the company.
Tyler:They had another product or two products at the time, but, like, that became, like, half of the revenue by the end of time that it left.
Nick:Yeah. So, I mean, you you have several success stories there in your career.
Tyler:Yeah. Yeah. Until the reason I left
Nick:Oh, no. Oh, no. It's because The big sigh and the until that that really that really makes me curious.
Tyler:I was let go. Wow. Which yeah. That wasn't cool. I was I was there for four and a half years, and then I was I was let go.
Tyler:Reason today is still a mystery to me, but, you know, we're going in a different direction.
Nick:Okay. Yeah. So you got the politically correct press release almost, like things that they tell everyone, but then you you feel like there's some sort of undercurrent there. Like, there it's not a real reason.
Tyler:Yes. For sure, it wasn't a real reason. Did you feel it Whatever. Kind of. Like, I'd I'd noticed that, like, my manager was, like, having meetings with, like, design agencies at the time.
Tyler:I was like, this is weird. And, like, I wasn't invited. So it was it was very weird.
Nick:Did you like, when you you when you had that that weird gut feeling, like, did you dismiss it, or did you prep, or, like, did you react in any way to it?
Tyler:I was very silent. I was like, okay. Like, I like, I had basically, I had a meeting set up with my manager and then poop. It was also it was a meeting with my manager and HR. So it's like, oh, Yeah.
Tyler:This is
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. You know what's happening. Yeah.
Tyler:I'm like, okay. Yeah. That was so that was gut punching. That was the first time I was like, oh. So
Nick:Yep. Because up until this moment, every time you change jobs, just to be clear Yep. You initiated leaving the company. You found something else, and you told them, hey. I am leaving.
Nick:Yep. Okay.
Tyler:This time, complete opposite. I'm like, okay. Well, I didn't take it very well. I was like, things were thrown against the wall after the meeting was closed. Had had my laptop shut off remotely three minutes after the call.
Tyler:A very, very, very frustrating time.
Nick:Yeah. That's very American. Right? That's what you hear and read everywhere that I for as a European, it sounds so hard to believe that that's, you know, the moment you hear the the bad news just moments later, you're locked out of all systems. Like, it's just you don't exist.
Nick:You've never existed over there. I mean, that's scary.
Tyler:It is. And I was like, okay. Well, what do I I've never been in the position. It's like, okay. Well, I've I've been working for the last what would that be?
Tyler:I guess ten years at that point. I was like, okay. I gotta find a play I don't have a job, and I gotta figure out what else to do.
Nick:Yeah. What what was that like? Like, because, like, the start of your career, you know, you weren't able to find a job, but you were living at home. So not a lot of responsibility, but now we're, like, twelve, thirteen years later. Yep.
Nick:I imagine you and kid. Yeah. Wife and kid. Yeah. Rent or mortgage to pay health care, all that kind of stuff.
Nick:Stressful times, I imagine.
Tyler:Yes. So it was like a mad scramble. I gotta update my website. Got on my portfolio. I gotta start applying.
Tyler:So it was just it was just I took, like, two weeks to update my website. I'm like, I'm giving myself a hard deadline. I'm not twiddling my thumbs. Like, whoever whatever it I land on two weeks, that's what I'm gonna be shipping. So did that and then blasting, like, a 100 applications just like like mad spray.
Tyler:Like, with like, we talked about before, like, tailored to each company. So I'm crafting a cover letter per per company and also tailoring my CV per company. Landed a landed a spot job offer in three months after.
Nick:Okay. Okay. So three months, lots of applying. Like, not sure how to ask it. Like, did you three months, was that a lot?
Nick:Or were you was it easier than expected or harder? Like, what was that period like? How would you score it, basically?
Tyler:I think it was hard. It was I mean, luckily, I had, like, a package that was covering I had
Nick:a severance
Tyler:covered. My, yeah, my severance. So I had a three month severance, which so Okay. It covered. So it was exactly what I needed.
Tyler:I think I was one day over. So, like, stressful just because, like, I was like, okay. Well, I have three months to, like, find something. I'm like, I should be able to find something. But the I think that, like, the beginning of the stages were, like, the job market was a lot harder than it used to be.
Tyler:I think it was earlier on my career, I think it was very easy to kinda find a new thing. I think now it's becoming a bit bit tougher, so that was tough.
Nick:Yeah. What what year are we in? Twenty twenty something. Twenty
Tyler:Twenty twenty. Yeah. Yeah. 2020. Yeah.
Tyler:2021 or '22. So that's Yeah.
Nick:Like, that's that's mid COVID and and just before the the the second AI wave.
Tyler:Yeah. I think it's 2022 probably.
Nick:Okay. Okay.
Tyler:Then I then I jumped to find a place. The c the VP of product hired me. I think I've talked about this before. Fifth day in on on the job, he leaves. Okay.
Tyler:He quits. Talked to him on Zoom after. He's like, I this you've joined a sinking ship. I'm like, oh, come on. So
Nick:he's just just let me get that straight. Like, they he was, like, very, like, happy face. Hey, Tyler. Welcome. You should work here to have you on board.
Nick:And then five days later, happy face goes off, regular face comes on, and then Yeah. That thing happened what you just told me.
Tyler:Yeah. I think he just got because he was he was there a month when you when you hired
Nick:me. Mhmm.
Tyler:And then three weeks later, like, I got I was to start I had three weeks between when I got the job to when I started. So I think in that three weeks, he had discovered some things.
Nick:Right. Okay. Okay. So so he he didn't lie to you. He just didn't know.
Nick:He didn't know. He just he found out a few things after hiring you, basically. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's crazy.
Nick:Same thing happened to me on a job when I joined the a company in the first month. At the end of the month, they had a a coming together, like a knowledge share evening type thing, and five five people quit in my first ever knowledge evening.
Tyler:It's so it works.
Nick:Yeah. Feels similar to what you're going through, but it's not about me. Okay. Your manager leaves, so I imagine that leaves you without steering, without
Tyler:Yeah. Because I'd I'd started with the new PM, So it hired me and the PM at the same time. And then similar to to what you just mentioned, 10 people quit within, like, my first ten days there.
Nick:So they all found out the same thing, probably.
Tyler:Yeah. I think, like, it might have been, like, 30% of the company quit. Like
Nick:Wow.
Tyler:I think they were, like, 50, and then they went down like, they were 60, went down to, like, 40. It was we I'm like, this is oh, this is weird. Yeah. So it was I was the only designer there, and then I had the CEO was calling me a PM at some point. I was like, what am I gonna say?
Tyler:I was I assumed PM was there days. Like, here's our new product person. Like, product person. He's talking to me.
Nick:How dare you? Did you ever find out the the if if you want to share even, like, what happened? Like, what did they what did all those people find out made them leave?
Tyler:The CEO was just lying a lot. Mhmm. It was just like he just, like, was, like, wasn't so much so that I was on an interview, and then I was told not to tell him that, like, we're developing this feature that but say that it was done and we're refining it. Because you basically promised to a customer that this would be done within a certain set period. It was past that period, but I needed to do some usability testing.
Tyler:And you're like, just say it's done and and say that the Figma link is actually the real thing. It's like, okay. Right. It's all this, like, very sales led, big promises Yeah. Things that couldn't be delivered on.
Nick:And then and then blaming the team when the team isn't able to, you know, make this strange promises happen from the CEO. Right? Okay. So how many we're talking about years, but how many days did you say?
Tyler:I was let go on month seven.
Nick:Oh, you was let go? Okay.
Tyler:Yeah. The position no longer existed. It's like, they ran they were running out of money. That's what happened.
Nick:Of course. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Nick:Okay. So that leaves you jobless for the second time in a row, getting this COVID. Uh-huh. What what's what's your confidence level like at that moment?
Tyler:It's an all time low. I'm gonna be very transparent. Like, this is, like, within the same year, I was let go twice. So, like, the the arrogant Tyler had dissipated. See, the same guy who kind of walked out of that meeting and asked for a $15 raise, like, he doesn't exist anymore.
Tyler:It's like, okay.
Nick:I gotta imagine. Yeah. I am the the insecure Tyler started to see a pattern. Hey. It's me.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah.
Tyler:So that being said, I mean, I must push forward another three months So I found a new job, which is my current one today.
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:Very good experience. I'm like, my but my now antennas are up. Like, I gotta do research on the founder background, how long Glassdoor I'm looking at. Like, I am not jumping into another sinking ship. I gotta make sure that everything's good.
Tyler:It did. Like, I went through, like, all podcasts, like, all that like, went through their website, went through their funnels, seeing, like, what's what may be broken. It looked it looked good. And it is good because I'm I'm I'm still here
Nick:Yeah. Like, a year and
Tyler:a half later. Very good impression with, like, the the hiring manager. Like, it was able to like, stayed longer after because I had more questions, was open to, like, booking another section another session. Like like, green flags for the for, like, for the first time.
Nick:Okay. Okay.
Tyler:And for some that I've actually had, like, mentorship. I felt like I was, like, I was constantly, like, in my my career, like, figuring it out myself, and this is, like, the first place where I have a bit of guidance, which is refreshing.
Nick:Nice. Nice. Yeah. So so tell me a bit more about then your current position because you've done so many different things from social media to building to not building and only designing. What do you do you do, basically?
Nick:What type of design brand are you doing?
Tyler:So product design that is and that it's it's evolving day by day. So it's like it's really just like doing research discovery, Figma design. Like, 70% strategy, 30 design, like, the the classic mix. Though, like, the position is evolving and, like, a KPI that we may be kind of putting forth is, like like, a designer must push at least one PR per quarter, which is something that I wanna be pushing for because that's that's where we're going. Something that you're already doing, but, like, I think, like, in house, I think that should be it's becoming the new norm that, like, we're we're skipping a couple steps.
Tyler:We are going straight to code so we have something that we can we can test and and ship to
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:We're we just have to validate the ideas very early. Yeah. It's ever changing, but the what we call product design today is what I'm doing.
Nick:Right. Right. Yeah. So it's it's it's it feels modern, but, actually, it's the classic way of designing. So you're doing like, when you're saying a PR per quarter, for those who don't know, you know, that means that you submit a change in code that someone has to review and then hopefully approve so that the thing that you made actually ends up in the product.
Nick:But I imagine that's mostly front end stuff. Right? It's it's Yes. But that's just that's just me guessing. You know, UI quick fixes or or simple, you know, dashboard updates, like, it's probably not going to be a full feature yet that the designer does on the site.
Nick:I think,
Tyler:yeah, I think it it'll evolve there slowly. But at the moment, yeah, it's it's like small things fixes, very kind of aesthetic visual stuff. We're slowly starting to get into, like, prototyping. We're on this on the on the end of, like, the thing we're doing more exploration and, like, five coding and, like, creating these POCs rather than staying in Figma. Like, we're actually building like, we're we're really taking out that that builder persona.
Tyler:So, like Yeah. Full circle moment, we're getting back into code. Yes. We have that that prompting layer, but, like, we're get I think we're getting back into at least me, I'm getting back to, like, where I started, which is, coding as well.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you don't you don't have to, but it does feel like the, let's say, the the middle or the the the most common, you know, job description is moving there. I see it for sure. More on that later.
Nick:But what I'm curious about, you know, really at the beginning of this episode, you know, we talked about very briefly about, you know, design community is it feels like it's on fire, not in a good way. Like, wow, you're on fire. You're doing a great job, but, like, more in the literal sense that it's people are concerned and scrambling and and not knowing what to do and blaming each other. Like, there's a lot of toxicity there. But then you have what it looks like a great position that you're in.
Nick:You're happy doing cool things, and your colleagues are happy with you. Why is that? Like, are you, like, a very small minority, or did you do something better than than most people? Like, is there a secret
Tyler:I think
Nick:or top three things that people should change today if they want to have the success that you're having?
Tyler:Yeah. I think I think just, like, looking over, like, the last sixteen years, I think the the pattern is being consistent, like, making sure you're doing the work, like, saying doing what you say, but also, like, keeping your the the industry is ever changing. Like, it it was a bit slower at the beginning of my career, but now it's evolving very quickly. It's about keeping your your a pulse of, like, what's changing, what are the new tools, but anchored in classic kind of design thinking. Like, that is never changing.
Tyler:It's just the tools that you're using. They I think, number one, just don't don't get stale. Don't be don't be frigid in terms of, like, the the your process because that changes, but the thinking stays the same.
Nick:Right. Right. Yeah. That makes sense. That makes sense.
Nick:The the doing the thing that you you're saying is, I think, very important. I I talk to so many you know, when I work with someone new, like new project, new client, I always ask, like, hey. Why me? Why now? You know?
Nick:And then one of the main reasons is, like, well, yeah, I had a bad experience with the previous designer. And and that's not their layout skill and and typography skill or knowledge, but that's mostly like communicating, you know, listening and and doing the things that that are asked. Like, hey. Can you do this thing? Yes.
Nick:And then, you know, crickets for two weeks. So I feel like that that's a big one. Listening to your story, I also think it's it's about your your boldness, you know, just taking taking a swing, you know, try and see if you can make something happen. I'm sure you can fall on your face, but you'll learn or You hit and you have a big promotion or cool new job. So, yeah, the risk taking, I think, is also a big part.
Tyler:Risk taking is big. Like, you gotta be you have to be believing yourself, and it's your I think for me, it's not comparing yourself to others, but, like, comparing yourself to your previous self. Like, that being the goalpost. Like, let me look Yeah. What I used to do.
Tyler:Let me see if I can top myself. I think at some point in my career, I was like, let me just anchor myself on, like, the top three designers, which can be it's not a good idea because you're gonna be you're gonna be disappointed. Like, the reward is is you being better than you were yesterday.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. And then I think one thing that's not a thing people will appreciate, but I also think that you really need that official program.
Nick:Like, you've done, you know, you've done two programs, very expensive ones, where you really learned your craft. I don't think I I you know, in theory, you can get a job just by falling face forward into it, but I think you really need something bigger than the Google UX course or a boot camp. Like, you need something official. It takes a year plus.
Tyler:Yeah. I'm I'm on the fence, but probably. Like, you you need something official, not like a quick it could be a boot camp, but it has to be done right away. But, like, most boot camps are not very good. Need something concrete that you're able to be in a room with other people that are learning with you at the same time, but have some a person who houses all that knowledge that you can kinda refer to.
Tyler:Like, that person who's, like, the teacher in the room is something is very important that they're, like, connected to the industry. They've been doing it themselves, and you're not just following plan. A You can actually try, fail, and then, like, the internship, I think, is super important. Like, doing something, whether it's paid or free, doesn't matter, like, on the job experience as part of that package.
Nick:Think so. Yeah. Yeah. That yeah. I I think, you know, I have to clarify.
Nick:Like, I I think that's what I meant also. Like, don't do a six week boot camp where, you know, made by some sort of nondesigner that just wants to make a quick buck and promises you a job guarantee, you know, to do something official, quote, unquote, in a sense what you're saying. There's a teacher there. You're together with people. You're learning.
Nick:You're doing you're doing something. It takes probably longer than a few weeks, you know, you where you actually learn the craft, like, really Yeah. Heads down, learn something, get skilled. That's really helpful. And then, you know, it doesn't matter what type of of, you know, piece of paper you get or certification, but just learn.
Nick:Really learn it, I think, is important.
Tyler:Yeah. I agree.
Nick:Alright? Well, I mean, this this was very exciting. You know, your hockey stick career path had a big dip in the second half, but it's it's shooting upwards listening to you about your current position. Maybe my final question for this episode for you is, like, you said that you always have the next thing, like, career wise. Like, what do you want to do next?
Nick:Like, you know, maybe within your current job? Like, what's, like Yeah. What are you what are you aiming for?
Tyler:So I'm looking back on, like, when I went from, like, leadership back to IC. I think probably leadership is the next rung for me. I think that's my next step up. So it's something that I I I really think that I have a good sense of, like, how products have been are are are built and have been built over the last, like, sixteen years. I just have I think there's I have a good knowledge of, like, different strategies they can deploy.
Tyler:So I think I could be a good kind of people leader and kind of good strategist at that leadership level.
Nick:I hope that happens for you. And then if it does, we should do, you know, Tyler's story part two. You know, this was very exciting to listen to. You know, it's it's very cool to share both our stories and see the overlap, but also the the the the fork in the road where we went into different directions. You know?
Nick:It's it's very cool.
Tyler:Yeah. It's cool to see some of the commonalities too. So Yeah. It's good that, like, we have both of our stories out there.
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:Alright. That's another episode in the bag.
Nick:Yeah. Great episode. By the way, if you're stuck second guessing your work or trying to figure out your next move, drop a question in the comments or leave a review. We might actually feature you in one of our future episodes.
Tyler:And if you got any value from this episode, hit subscribe wherever you're listening. It helps more than you think.
Nick:You can can find everything else, resources, articles, and more at designtablepodcast.com.
Tyler:Thanks for being here.
Nick:See you next time.