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Get ready for a crucial conversation on our next episode of Architecture Social’s live podcast! This time, our host Stephen Drew is meeting with the dynamic Marsha Ramroop, an award-winning Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion (EDI) strategist and the Founder Director of Unheard Voice Consultancy Ltd.
Curated content, insights and opportunities to accelerate your career in Architecture, Design, Development and Real Estate to the next level.
Equality, Diversity and Inclusion Q&A ft. Marsha Ramroop
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Stephen Drew: [00:00:00] Oh my goodness. It's the evening crew. Get your wine. You can have a coffee if you want. Don't stay up all night though, wherever you want. I promise. This will be good. It's like evening school, but we're not living Architecture. We're living life and you never know if you're running a businessy. Tips could be cool.
And if you're practicing in Architecture, this is just generally good vibe, stuff to know. Okay, 16 seconds. Get that pen and paper, put down that frying pen. Don't burn yourself, keep watching or listen to us in the background. Okay?
Hello Evening crew. It is me and not just me. I'm joined by an awesome guest and today we'll be a combination of learning a few things, but nothing too hardcore because we're chilling out. It's a seven o'clock and we can grab that, but glass of wine. But I am first of all enjoying, it's not gonna be just me.
That [00:01:00] wouldn't be interesting. I'm joined by an awesome guest, which I've known for a while. It's the fabulous. And then, really knowledgeable. Marsha Ram Rub. How are you?
Marsha Ramroop: I'm good. I'm good. Stephen, how you doing? Applause.
Stephen Drew: Yes. The virtual round of applause. There are people there though. And hey, everyone in the audience, you can join in, but in case people aren't, they've never met you before. Marsha let's hear who you are, first of all.
Marsha Ramroop: Who am I? It's such a good question. I wake up every morning. Who am I? Who am I going to be today? I, gosh, it's always it's quite psychological question to say how am I gonna start by introducing myself? Am I gonna start with the fact that I'm parent, I'm married, I. Do this, I do that.
But actually I think the most relevant thing to share is that I'm an inclusion strategist. What is that? What is an inclusion strategist? And e essentially I like to go into organizations and help them create inclusive cultures. And that's so [00:02:00] important to me personally because literally talk about having skin in the game with all the different layers of my own identity and just.
It's such an important part of how we live our lives well with each other, how we create inclusive spaces. And I actually had a 30 year career as a broadcaster, believe it or not. I worked as a journalist and radio and television. And I Worked in communities a lot. And for me, when I was doing that role, it was about going out into those communities and asking what are their stories?
How do they want them told? How can I facilitate their telling those stories? How do I do? And I created some media literacy projects and all that sort of thing and trying to. Get the leadership at that time to understand how to do that without imposing a news agenda on these communities was always quite difficult.
And so I went off to formalize, my whole [00:03:00] thinking about how do we talk to communities? And that's when I discovered what. Diversity inclusion was, I came across something called cultural intelligence. And even myself as I became a leader and manager myself, even then in those positions, it was quite difficult to do.
So that's what I set up my own consultancy. Unheard Voice started delivering some of that expertise outside of that organization. And then having left the b C, the job as Director of Inclusion at the Royal Institute of British Architects came up.
And that was the biggie because it wasn't so much that I needed the job.
It was I wanted it and I wanted it because I think I inherently understood that the spaces that we live in,
Stephen Drew: Yep.
Marsha Ramroop: Influence how we are with each other. And I felt that if I could influence the creation of inclusive spaces, I could influence the creation of an inclusive world. So I went into RIBA to [00:04:00] do that job, and I left and I still want to do it.
For me it's about still trying to, create Architecture, create pub a built environment. That is for public benefit and definitely looking at excellence around inclusion for the profession and associated professions. And so that's what I'm trying to do as part of unheard voice.
Stephen Drew: Brilliant. And I think it's absolutely amazing. And so I've actually, when I was an naro b a counselor, I was involved in one of your inductions, which actually was something a bit later we'll talk about which CQ and the E D I and what was interesting is I thought I knew quite a bit, but actually I realized that I didn't know as much as I thought.
So it was one of them moments. And it was really insightful. Now, Marsha, on that topic though, because today is really interesting about unpacking e d i. That's it so people can start to get to grips of the subject. But just before we do that, Kirsty [00:05:00] also verifies that you were totally fabulous and
Marsha Ramroop: Thank you.
Stephen Drew: Kirsty. Thank you Kirsty, for being here. Now, the term e d i, it can get banded around on websites. It can be as a task for an Architecture practice to do. We must be more inclusive or something like that. However, some practices might be running with the ball in Architecture. Some might have genuine good intentions or some might be accidentally missing a few things out.
But we, before we go into that, first of all, I'm gonna break down the E and the D and the I, and so what is equality in your definition of it? Marsha, first and foremost.
Marsha Ramroop: Talk about equality and equity and equality is about everybody getting the same, which is fine if we're all at the same start point, but we know because of our. Backgrounds because of discrimination, because of biases all of which I can break down as well. We are not [00:06:00] all at the same start point.
And equity speaks to a quality of. Access and making up for historic imbalance. So that could be around, putting in particular policies, procedures, practices and making sure the systemic support of those who traditionally have not been given access to whatever it might be.
Equitable outcomes is really what we're looking at, because equality is not enough in some cases.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Okay, that's pretty good. Now, on that note, you did touch upon equality and equity, and I'm gonna be very honest. I always think of equality. So first, what, on that note, what is the difference between the two then?
Marsha Ramroop: Yeah. So when it comes down to how we break it down, if you can imagine if you have three people, one's super tall, one is medium height and one's really small, and they're trying to look over a fence and you give [00:07:00] them all the same size. Box to stand on, to look over the fence. Actually, the really tall person didn't need it in the first place.
The middle-sized person can now look over the fence, but the smaller person can't. And so was that the right way to do things? To get, give everyone a box when actually maybe if you've got three boxes and you give the. The middle person one, and you give the smaller person two that's an equitable outcome because then they can all access and be able to look over the fence.
So the difference between the equality is that when you gave everyone the same, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. But with equitable outcomes, you're really addressing those individual needs and making up for any imbalance that they might be.
Stephen Drew: Okay. Wow. We're really getting all the answers here. Now I have a few more questions and these are ones that have been submitted to me and ones that I've been thinking of. And a few that I, Marsha helped me with at the start. Cause I was like, [00:08:00] give me one or two that we'd love to talk about as well.
So we got a combination, right? But before we do that, Anyone in the audience, this is your tight chance to pick Marlow's brains. Now, if your brain's completely flattened from the day because it's a long day, then totally
Marsha Ramroop: mush. Tuesday mush brain.
Stephen Drew: if you got that, just, just join us for it. However if there is an example, do feel free to share it.
Now, on that quick note, if you can also find master stuff, and I'm gonna mention a bit later on our website, which is www.uncuredvoice.co ak, and we'll show that a little bit later. And I'll go back to the questions now and but there it unpacks things even more. That's the beauty. So there's more stuff there.
But while you hear Marsha, I got the next one. We talked about the E, we talked about two E's. Okay, but what about, oh, I've gone to the wrong one. D is the next one in E D I, isn't it? So I guess it doesn't matter which way cuz they're all important. But what is then diversity in terms of, culture, workplace, office, Architecture.[00:09:00]
Marsha Ramroop: Yeah, diversity is a really interesting one because you hear it bandied around a lot. We need diversity. We need to have a diverse team. We need to hire a diverse candidate. But diversity is. Simply the mix of visible and invisible difference. So you might hear about race being an aspect of diversity and gender.
Age different physical ability, sexual orientation, religion. But it's also things like communication styles. So if you are more direct communicator or more indirect, for example, and it's access to education. So if you are privately educated or state educated, whether you've been educated up to 16, 18, tertiary education, those are different kinds of diversity.
You've got Neurodivergence you've got access to technology. So for example, we talk about everything's going [00:10:00] online now. Even if you want to do some banking, all the high streets banks are closing. So what does that mean for access for those people? And at the moment, of course, the big news is around closing rail ticket stations.
What does that mean for those who the one in eight. People who buy a train ticket in person. Diversity is simply understanding that mix of visible and invisible difference. It's a fact of humanity. We're all part of diversity. Diverse isn't something somebody else is. So you know, when you talk about we're hiring a diverse candidate, actually we need to rethink our language in that case, because, Probably what we're really talking about is addressing underrepresentation.
When we look at our firms in our practices in Architecture you have a very predominant demographic. Which is the white able-bodied heterosexual man, probably based in London. [00:11:00] And when we look at the spend of Architecture in the uk, I, the last figures I saw at about 70% was spent.
In and around London and that's where, there's got the highest concentration of architects in the world in London. And yeah, mostly it went from a racial perspective. White. Again, the disability voice is so quiet in in Architecture able-bodied. Heterosexual again, the v variants of sexualities and sexual orientation according to ARB statistics is quite low.
And then men, yeah but when you compare with the actual demographic of the UK population, that's why every bodied heterosexual men based in London Southeast. I love to ask this question actually. Stephen, do you know? the percentage is of the UK population. That is actually all those five characteristics.
Why able-bodied heterosexual men based in London Southeast? If you had to pick a number out the air [00:12:00] percentage of the UK population, white able-bodied, heterosexual men based in London,
Stephen Drew: I think it'd be I'm, I want to say that, I'm hopeful that the number's lower across the board, but probably higher in Architecture. But I wouldn't have no clue, dude. Give you, am I so like a huge number again, like 60% or are we talking, are you like the number you are on a bone?
Marsha Ramroop: Yeah, percentage wise the percentage of the UK population is white able-bodied heterosexual men based in London. Southeast is only 3.1%
Stephen Drew: Okay, so that's low.
Marsha Ramroop: But when you look at. Who runs our politics, our economics, our media, our culture, our Architecture, that demographic is highly overrepresented.
And so when we are talking about diversity, what we're really looking at is trying to address that overrepresentation and targeting in a really meaningful way, [00:13:00] hopefully. That, that system of underrepresentation. So how do we really look at that carefully? And so when we're talking about diversity, we should use better language and really this is about addressing underrepresentation in our firm because all the leadership look the same and it's not quite representative of the UK population.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, I agree. And I think that maybe a more naive view of initially diversity is, I think mainly to focus on race, especially once it comes to website and all this stuff, when actually there is so much more, as you say, underrepresentation, that goes into it a
Marsha Ramroop: I'm glad you mentioned that. Because representation matters when it comes to, having women, having different racial backgrounds, having people with if they're disabled, having people who have different sexual orientations. This all matters. Because there is a real element in when you can see [00:14:00] someone who represents you in leadership positions, then you're more likely to feel like, okay, this is a profession for me.
This is an organization for me. This is a practice that I can stay and grow in, for example however, I always like to just caveat that representation matters, but just because someone comes from an underrepresented group doesn't mean they themselves will be inclusive in their behaviors. And just because someone comes from an underrepresented group doesn't mean they represent all of that group either.
If people are just individuals, so it's worth them. Sparing that in mind when we're thinking about diversity and addressing underrepresentation.
Stephen Drew: yeah. Fair enough. Exactly. It's, there's a lot to unpack. This is probably like I. A first attempt to go for it. Now, Marsha, I do have a few more questions, however, we have a nice curve ball from the audience because I I don't know the answer That's why it's curve ball, [00:15:00] but you might and, or you could take a first stab at it.
So Paleo nicely says, how can we relate your really clear example of equity brackets, heights, and number of stools to an Architecture practice? So can you visualize that for us, Marsha, in terms of context?
Marsha Ramroop: So when you have an Architecture practice, there may be a number of reasons why you don't have equitable outcomes. It could be around your staffing, so how you are attracting people to your organization. You may not have equitable outcomes in terms of who's progressed and retained and developed in the organization.
You may not have equitable outcomes in terms of your design. So your design isn't particularly inclusive. And then there's also equitable outcomes in terms of who you are reaching in terms of clients and your procurement chain and how you're doing your community engagement. So when we are talking about equitable outcomes for just even just looking at your recruitment, so how can you build in different systems?
[00:16:00] So an an equality based system, is that your current Recruitment system is just treating everybody the same. But if you have underrepresentation and you want to ensure that you are reaching certain underrepresented backgrounds, an equitable system would require you to look at the language that you are using.
In your job ad look at where you are advertising it and targeting certain groups. Look at the kind of system that you have for the recruitment. So it could be, are you doing interviews or is it based on portfolio? How are you looking at the, those portfolios? Who is looking at them? And so putting in different systems, which allows you then to more thoughtfully ensure that different underrepresented groups are invited to. Participate in your recruitment system. For example, [00:17:00] when it looks, when you are then looking at okay, how you're treating, progressing and retaining staff, again, who is getting those opportunities? How are they getting them? Is pay fair looking at gender pay gap, for example? If there is a gap, then this is normally.
Due to who's in leadership and who's lower down in the organization if it's a hierarchical one. Looking at those systems and baking in procedures, policies and practices that allow those underrepresented groups to not only be recruited at different stages, but then are treated, progressed, and retained is that piece, the design piece is a massive piece.
How do you bake in equitable design outcomes? There's a lot of guidance out there on how to do this. But inclusion InDesign isn't just about accessibility. It is about gender safety, do women feel safe in a particular space? But of course when you open up spaces so they feel safer, you have [00:18:00] wider.
Pavements, you have more curved buildings so you can see people coming better lighting that doesn't just help women. It helps so many other groups as well. Inclusive design is about a much broader view that goes beyond legislation to create Equitable outcomes. Depending on your background, you can see something that feels right for you and then how you do your community engagement.
Who are you listening to? How are you actually approaching those different people? Are you just sending round an email or posting something through people's doors? And if they don't respond to a planning application, is that, is that as much as you're going to do? It's gotta be a lot more thoughtful that.
Participatory approach at co-authorship in order to get people on board and really listen to those voices, not just the loudest ones. In terms of the heights and stools it's a little bit more complicated than that, but essentially it's about looking at those individual needs and the [00:19:00] needs of those underrepresented groups and building them in at a more representative level into your thought and behavior process.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, said. It's, I think it's such a big topic. I tell you, my brain was exploded years ago when I learned that job ads could be, Written into, in many tenses tend to, can be over masculine or over family and then true inclusivity, you need to tread the line on tone. And I was like, so that was years ago.
And, but even then, it goes even further cuz most job ads aren't empathetic at all, aren't inclusive, aren't advertised in places or even digital poverty, can per someone reach that advertisement. So I completely get what you mean. Every aspect of the business, every aspect of Architecture has all.
All these facets in. So thank you for the amazing question, pal. That's so cool. And Marsha, what a cool answer. So I'll give you a quick breather. I'll bring up your website again. Now I am gonna try and bring the website on the [00:20:00] end of the show, but I did do this once with Hamza and I accidentally kicked myself off.
So I'm not gonna do that just yet. I'll save your website for the end. Now we did, definitely did the E. We did the e. And we did the I
Marsha Ramroop: I yet. We haven't done anymore is inclusion.
Stephen Drew: my goodness. That's right. That's right. We haven't done the i That was not inclusive, but that was accidental exclusivity. So let's be inclusive and ask what is inclusion, Marsha?
Marsha Ramroop: Oh, brilliant. Love it. I love to talk about inclusion rather than I, I prefer to talk about inclusion rather than diversity and eq equity because inclusion is the act. This is what we do. And the definition of inclusion that I find most useful is it's the culture. Where people feel that their different perspectives, their styles, their needs are, they're respected, they're valued, they're taken into account.
And I like to say that inclusion [00:21:00] isn't about other people and their identities. It's about us and our behaviors. It's the thing that we do. In order to invite, it doesn't matter who you are, what your identity is, how you identify, what characteristics you have. If I behave in a way that demonstrates inclusion, then I will do so in a way that makes you feel valued.
You will feel respected. You will feel that Your characteristics are taken into account. It doesn't matter who you are. And that's a piece of work that I can do, that I can look in the mirror and ask myself, what is it about me that needs to change so I can be more inclusive of you, whoever you are.
And when I do that, then I will. Act to get those equitable outcomes. So it doesn't matter, about the diversity, it doesn't matter really about the equitable outcomes. What matters is [00:22:00] me doing this thing that is gonna make a difference to both of those.
Stephen Drew: Okay. Okay. Fair enough. It
Marsha Ramroop: can keep going.
Stephen Drew: No, that's all right. No I love it. We can always dip back in it a little bit later, but I think that these all feed into each other now. The one bit, I talked a little bit about recruitment earlier, and there was two things that I've learned in recruitment and also at the R E B A is that a lot of people have unconscious bias and they don't even know about it.
And one of the questions we talked about before, What is biased? So I'd love to hear about what is biased when we talk about E D I and maybe touch upon my favorite subject of unconscious bias.
Marsha Ramroop: Yeah love, love the question. And the really interesting thing about bias is that everybody has it and you won't know that you are like demonstrating some unconscious bias because if you were conscious of it, it wouldn't be unconscious. If you were aware of it, it wouldn't be unconscious. That's the nature of unconscious [00:23:00] bias.
But bias comes in a couple of. Different ways. Actually, I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask you another question. I'm gonna throw you in the deep end
Stephen Drew: Oh goodness.
Marsha Ramroop: say at any given moment, how many pieces of information do you think your brain is processing if you've got access to all five senses?
Stephen Drew: I think it's like millions of
Marsha Ramroop: yeah, it is, it's 11 million.
So at any given moment,
Stephen Drew: don't feel like that right now for me, but Okay. Alright, cool.
Marsha Ramroop: At any given moment, if you have access to all five senses, your brain is processing 11 million pieces of information, and within that, how many do you think you can consciously process of that 11,000,040?
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
Marsha Ramroop: 40. So at any given moment, your brain is processing 10,999,960 bits of [00:24:00] information of which you are completely unaware.
And within that though, There is helpful and unhelpful shortcut going on. So if you had to think every morning when you roused yourself into consciousness, oh, I've got to swing my legs off the bed. I've got to blink. I've got to breathe, I've got to make my way to the toilet. I've got to release my sphincter, I've got to get up again.
I've got remember to wipe, you are just not, you're not gonna be able to function as a human being. You've just like melt. So a lot of these things happen unconsciously and unless you suddenly become conscious of it. So if I say blink, suddenly you are really aware of how much you're blinking, right?
And so that is the nature of unconscious bias. Some of it's helpful, some of it's unhelpful and but to be human is to be biased because we are all processing all these bits of information. And so we are all short cutting and this is happening. So explicit conscious bias is the [00:25:00] attitudes and beliefs that we have about a person at a conscious level, and then unconscious and implicit bias.
Is the subtle non-conscious thought processes that happen to us all the time. Some are helpful and some are unhelpful. Now, I think when you talk about, and when a lot of people talk about unconscious bias, what they're really talking about is the unhelpful stuff that happens where we are short cutting information and we are making assumptions.
We're making assumptions about people based on Information that we have absorbed over time about difference. So about different aspects of diversity, race, gender, disability, sexuality age if you've got a tattoo access to technology, all those things that I was listing earlier that that.
The reasons why people can be discriminated against, which then result in underrepresentation. [00:26:00] All of that happens cause of personal bias, which then feeds into organizational bias, which then feeds into sector bias, which then feeds into societal bias, which then feeds into our personal bias. So we need to then break that cycle.
Of our biases feeding into our wider society, and that's where cultural intelligence comes in, which is something you mentioned a little bit earlier.
Stephen Drew: Alright, let's do it one on the fly then. Cause I want to ask how we can deal with our biases and we'll get to that. But what is cq? So I'm gonna make this on the fly and so you Oh, ci. CI
Marsha Ramroop: No cq. Cq. You're correct. I'll tell you why it's CQ as part of the answer.
Stephen Drew: Okay, go. Go for it.
Marsha Ramroop: So cq. So CQ stands for Cultural Intelligence Quotient. So Q stands for quotient because iq, eq CQ is a family of measurable and [00:27:00] research backed intelligences. So cultural intelligence, the actual. Definition of it is the capability to work and relate effectively across difference.
So the capability. So it's an provable skill to work and relate. So it's about functions, but it's also about relationships effectively. So it's about our effectiveness, our ability to do it well across. Difference across any kind of diversity, especially when we know difference activates bias, then CQ gives us the ability to navigate that.
And I've got a great big massive book here cuz it's a really, and it's got lots of like small writing in it, which is the 20 years of research that has gone into. Cultural intelligence and the research has now been done across 168 [00:28:00] countries around the world. And they've surveys that have been done of more than 250,000 people.
And the research question, the main research question behind it is, what's the difference between those that succeed in today's multicultural and globalized world and those that fail? What's the difference between success and failure when wanting to work and relate effectively across difference? And the answer is you need cultural intelligence, and it's proven.
What all this research proves is that when you demonstrate cultural intelligence, you will. Think, communicate, and behave inclusively. And so that's why I advocate for it. That's why when I went into RIBA and all the work that I've done before and since is based foundationally in the behaviors because like I say, inclusion is about other people and their Characteristics is about us and our behaviors.
And we're talking about inclusion, we're talking about equitable outcomes. [00:29:00] Again, I always say the existence of policies, procedures, practices, they don't guarantee their use. It's the behaviors and the discipline to do which does, so you might have a great inclusive recruitment system. But if you're not using it,
Stephen Drew: Yeah,
Marsha Ramroop: it's just, a list of just a policy on a website or living in some SharePoint somewhere.
So having those behaviors is the key to unlocking actual equitable outcomes. Inclusiveness in our design, inclusiveness in our organizations.
Stephen Drew: No. Said. And I agree with recruitment policies. They tend to go on the fly. When you're running with the board, but you have to practice what you preach. And it is difficult, but it is a bit like exercising. I imagine. You get just constantly get in the routine of it and it gets easier now. I'm just quick reminder for anyone that's doing their dinner in the background or whatever, you can ask [00:30:00] Marsha a question if this, if you are tuned into the replay you can you can still ask her a question.
I'm gonna bring up her website really quickly,
Marsha Ramroop: Please absolutely drop me a line. I'd be happy to answer questions.
Stephen Drew: Exactly, and for the audio listeners is www.uncuredvoice.co uk and you can find all that stuff there. However, I've got one or two more now. Okay. We talked about what CQ is, we talked about the importance of it. Can we loop back and quickly give a little bit more insight?
Insight of, or your initial thoughts on then how can we deal with our bias? You talked about the recruitment process earlier or the day-to-day in an Architecture, how projects kicking off, how people are treated, all that stuff. How can we start to, deal with biases?
Marsha Ramroop: Yeah, so a lot of people think that maybe having unconscious bias awareness training might be the answer, and it could be part of the answer. But I'm afraid that a lot of the research shows that [00:31:00] one-off interventions around unconscious bias not only don't work, but in some cases can embed biased behaviors.
So the reach research has shown that when people have these one-off interventions, a lot of people then think they're no longer biased and they no longer need to make an effort or to make any kind of change. And so this is the problem. With unconscious bias awareness training, and there was a bit of research that aggregated into 1 492 studies on these one-off interventions.
And so that aggregated 90,000
Stephen Drew: Wow.
Marsha Ramroop: did. And the question was like basically do these one-off interventions actually work and the answer was not only that they didn't work, but that any changes in behavior are weak and trivial in nature. So one of the authors of that report said, don't try to change your bias. Instead work around it [00:32:00] and teach people to create procedural changes to mitigate the impact of bias. So the way that we create procedural changes to mitigate our bias is going back to that cultural intelligence piece. So I said there were four capabilities that you need in order to be culturally intelligent.
And the first is your motivation, your drive. Do you actually want to work and relate effectively across difference with those who are different from you? And of course, a lot of people say, yes, I do. I of course I want to. But the fact is, when the stuff hits the fan, when faced with difference, your defensiveness might come into play.
And those biases kick in an unhelpful way. Can feel discomfort, fear of getting it wrong, and all these things stop us from actually being motivated to work and relate effectively across difference. So drive is the piece where you develop your motivations and [00:33:00] your confidence to work and relate effectively with others.
Stephen Drew: Yeah,
Marsha Ramroop: The second capability is knowledge. What do you know? What do you need to know about lived experiences that are very different from your own? And that's not just about racial difference or gender difference, but it's also about those cultural differences. How does a small Architecture firm work with a bigger one, for example?
And those collaborations might be cultural difference. What do you need to know there? What about the language of Architecture and how it compares with the language of I dunno, graphic design, that could be different cultural differences as well. How does an organization like to lead its people versus the way those people want to be led?
Again, cultural difference there. So understanding that breadth of difference is about listening. So those voices that are very different from your own and really thinking thoughtfully about gathering as much information as you can. And I always say this is you can never know everything about everything and everything about everyone.
So that's [00:34:00] why it's so important to surround yourself with those diversity of li lived experiences so you can get better inputs going into you with that 11 million pieces of information and start to influence those in a different way. So the third capability is CQ strategy. And I say it's the most important because if you're motivated and you have some drive and you have some knowledge, and you go straight into action without stopping to think about what you're thinking about. To plan for how you're going to use your knowledge to check any assumptions and to be hugely self-aware. Who am I? What am I bringing to the party? What is my organization gonna feel like working with this other one? Then you can start to create those procedural changes to mitigate the impact of bias, and that is where in CQ strategy.
It's so important to bringing about more effective change and then the final [00:35:00] capabilities, action. Ultimately, people judge us on our behaviors and people and organizations that are high in CQ action have a broad repertoire of adaptable behaviors so that they can be effective at working relating across difference.
And earlier you mentioned About, inclusion, fitness, and becoming inclusion fit. And I love to use that as a useful example because I like to liken inclusion, fitness, and using those four capabilities a bit like becoming physically fit. And I'd like to talk about, okay, a couch to 5k.
So if you've ever done any kind of running or you've never done it before and you're thinking, oh, I need to get fitter, You might start with something like a couch to 5k. So first of all, you're on the couch. Are you motivated to get up off the couch? And how do you make, motivate yourself? What are you gonna do to try to make your motivate yourself?
And sometimes that fear and the discomfort gets in the way, and that's certainly not gonna make you any fitter and it's not gonna get you moving. And you'd rather sit down than watch Netflix or [00:36:00] actually motivating yourself, number one. Number two, what do you need to know? Maybe about, what you're gonna wear, what kind of shoes, what kind of outfit what kind of route you need to take.
Then third, you need to plan. Are you gonna do stretches first? Are you going to do a two two k, fast walk and then thinking about doing something longer. And then up to that point, nothing has actually made you fitter has it. You have to go out and do the run, and that's the fourth capability.
Going out, doing the action, and whilst you're doing it, reflecting, oh, this would be better if I had a soundtrack. Or maybe when it's not raining, or maybe everything's gone really well and you've planned perfectly and it's all gone to plan, or it's all gone horribly wrong. And you have to start again.
But if that, first few times you do it and he hasn't quite gone. Gone quite right. You have a choice, don't you? You can get back on the couch or you can keep going and keep trying and keep per pursuing that plan to get fitter. Knowing that it's a journey. The first [00:37:00] time you try something, it's not necessarily gonna work, but if you push forward, you start to see the change slowly occur.
Eventually you get to doing your 5K in 25 minutes.
Stephen Drew: Here you go. That's the idea, right? It's it's really useful for you to hear that and I think it helps to break it down and start little by little, because like you said, we must be more, inclusive or where is the E D I? That's overwhelming. But if you start making positive, Informs like you say, things that makes a lot of sense.
Now I am marsh sympathetic because a business owner, both of us here as well, there's a lot going on and I really understand practicing Architecture, back of house, dry ring, all this stuff. It can get pretty overwhelming and sometimes these things can slip. Equally though, can you re remind people or maybe make a case for how important it is that, e d I exists in Architecture practice and the [00:38:00] benefits of not letting it slip.
Where, why should we keep talking about it, keep it in the forefront of our minds in businesses or, if you're working in it, why should we be promoting a more inclusive environment for people that work in.
Marsha Ramroop: I just don't think that we can afford not to. When we have this, the reason why I stick with being in this profession when I have the choice to, go to the NHS or local government or finance or tech or whatever, I stay in Architecture in the built environment because, It's so important what architects do, shapes the spaces in which people live.
People exist people, we don't have a choice. We are beholden upon this profession to shape the spaces in which we live, and it has such power. To create inclusion in the way that it does it. And in order for us to really think about how we can create inclusive societies is [00:39:00] held so much by Architecture and built environment professions.
And so we need the kinds of people who are entering the profession to be from a broad. Range of backgrounds. We need the leadership of our practices to come from a broad range of backgrounds. We need our design to be thoughtful about a broad range of backgrounds, and we need to listen to the voices of the communities in which we're placing and the clients that we're serving. And from those broad range of backgrounds, and given that broad range of backgrounds can activate our bias, we need to have a framework of behaviors like cultural intelligence to help us be conscious about how we are going to do our inclusion. And when we do when we have inclusive cultures, it is proven we're.
Six times more innovative in our outcomes. [00:40:00] We're eight times more profitable. We have better retention of staff. We have more engaged workforce. The, there are, there's at least three decades worth of research, which shows that to be inclusive is just better for everyone. And if you wanna see some of that, it takes work.
It takes effortful work, but it's straightforward because it starts here. It starts with each individual looking at themselves and asking the question, what is it about me that needs to change so I could be more inclusive of you, whoever you are. Now, of course, some organizations And some leadership need to do this more than others, and the culture of any organization is shaped by the worst behaviors leaders are willing to tolerate.
Of course, the culture of any, the organization can be shaped by the best [00:41:00] behaviors. Leaders are willing to demonstrate. CQ is a great framework to demonstrate those best behaviors and start to really infiltrate them through practices so we can get those outcomes of amazing spaces.
Stephen Drew: Said. That makes a lot of sense. Now this is probably the last chance to learn for anyone that wants to ask questions while we let anyone come in with a question, cause we've got a few more minutes. I was gonna throw the baton your way. The interviewee becomes the interviewer. Do you have one or two questions for me, Marsha, before we talk about your website and all that stuff?
Marsha Ramroop: I'd really like to ask you, Stephen, how are you? You behaving inclusively in what you do,
Stephen Drew: In what way? My business or as a recruitment or deal with clients.
Marsha Ramroop: in whatever way you feel comfortable answering that question.
Stephen Drew: Oh my goodness. Income. I'm always learning. It's I'm, it's two to this. I've got two mind frames. So [00:42:00] I'm a start of a new business, so I'm trying to be inclusive from the ground up and. But even then I'll have some, I have a, I have the media bias, which I've chosen cause I'm trying to attract experienced recruitment consultants to work with me.
So I need to open that up a little bit. Down the line. So I, I've got my own things that I'm working on as well. I'm not perfect on that. I like to think as who we are as people is, we're pretty broad. There's a mix going on, but there's a lot of things they can do. Cause I have a lot of unconscious biases.
The other thing I was gonna say though, in terms of. Cuz the large bit of the revenue, so the podcast that I love, there's lots of cool things in the Architecture, Social community and all that stuff. A lot of the revenue comes though from recruitment and by nature of recruitment, I am given a client from an Architecture practice and the client.
Sets the brief. So exactly like going in for a hairdresser or whatever, saying, I [00:43:00] want my hair, this and that. I will often get given, I'm looking for an Architect. Must have Revit, must have this, must have that. And actually a lot of the art of recruitment is trying to get the client to move away from the.
Requirements, or you could say biases and two things that they haven't seen before. So ones that pop up, for example, a lot which aren't seen as rude or wrong or whatever, but they can steer the search accidentally is, for example, oh, if you can find someone from Oxford Brooks University, put them to the top of the pile.
That is ruling out everyone that's gone to Manchester that's ruling out the apprentice schemes, and that's not necessarily inclusive. The other thing of have to know the software, I understand that the business sense, okay, we don't want to crash the model, but maybe as a business we need to start looking at, upskilling people on it.
And, or maybe then stuff cut down the [00:44:00] line comes of, oh, because someone doesn't have the software. We'll offer them a salary lower that's probably not the same or fair or all this stuff. So those are extreme examples, but they do happen The other bit, which I find extremely complicated and where do I begin morally, is sometimes I've had one or two clients in the past.
I'll keep it anonymous because it's all we, we're being cool here, these things do pop up and I've had some Oh, I'm trying to correct the balance in the practice. This next hire must be female, and on one hand it's okay, we're trying to correct the problem, but you are also excluding a lot.
Of maybe capable men for the role and where do you begin with that? And I don't even know we're gonna handle it myself. So there's a lot of biases to and fro. And I think that because of the scenario like that, so in that extreme scenario of I definitely need the next hire to be female, I think people then get scared to even unpack that conversation because they don't wanna seem.
Exclusive to the female, but at [00:45:00] the same time, there's a lot there. So maybe I can throw back to you, what would your input be with that extreme
Marsha Ramroop: with that with the women. The Equality Act of 2010 allows for something called PO positive action. And what it means is, in your job ads, et cetera, you can say things like we welcome people from range of backgrounds and will be. Particularly keen to hear from women and those from underrepresented groups.
For example, those with who are disabled and racialized backgrounds. And then when you make a statement like that, then you have to welcome those groups and then when that happens you invite everyone and you look at objectively around the qualifications.
And invariably there are people whose qualifications are as good, if not better than the prevailing demographic. And the Equality Act allows for when you have P two people of similar. Qualifications [00:46:00] to to give the job to the underrepresented group. So it's not about hiring someone who isn't qualified.
You're hiring someone who's qualified, but also you're prioritizing the underrepresented group. So the equality Act 2010 does allow for that, and it's called positive action. It's not positive discrimination, which is what you're describing, which is where you. Don't include men in the process. You just are amplifying that.
You are really keen to hear from those who currently underrepresented in the organization.
Stephen Drew: I love that. That's bang on. Amazing top tip for here of and can you remind me, is
Marsha Ramroop: Action.
Stephen Drew: positive action great. Welcoming underrepresented backgrounds, everyone can apply. However we welcome in particular applications from all including underrepresented backwards. I love
Marsha Ramroop: I tell you what, Stephen, we'll do a whole other chat. Just about that. Talking about making sure you've got inclusive websites. Making sure that [00:47:00] you know the way you are selling the job is inclusive. And then also really importantly for me is that the culture that people come, gotta be inclusive too.
Stephen Drew: Amazing. So we will do that. We will schedule that. So cool. So that, I'm excited for now. Okay. So I think everyone's probably eating their dinner and stuff, but there's gonna be a few people that are listening in and gone. I wish I asked about, I don't know. More the more of what we're talking about.
More about the E, the D, the I. Now, Marsha, where can people find you? And I'm gonna try to bring your website up as well. If I crash, I'll come straight back, but if I don't. We'll have the website app, but go on Marsha.
Marsha Ramroop: So obviously you can find me at unheard voice.co uk. I'm very active on LinkedIn and I try to use that platform as a way to actually share insight and guidance. So please follow me at Marsha Ramie on LinkedIn. I don't tend to use any other social platform right now. I concentrate on that one as a professional platform.[00:48:00]
And yeah, email Marsha Ram, her voice uk.
Stephen Drew: Amazing. The good news is I brought up the website, you should check out Marsh's website and I agree I do follow Marsh on LinkedIn and it's really useful and quite nice to see all different perspectives including hers. And also it reminds me as a business owner that I can't forget all this stuff.
Even while dealing with the payroll and all those things, e d I is important. Now, I'm gonna end the live stream in a bit, but Marsha will be back. We're gonna get the time, we're gonna sort it all out, but Marsha will be back and if you have any questions in the meantime, drop them to her. Or drop them to me.
But on that note, I think that is a roundup of the livestream. So I just wanna say a quick thank you to everyone that tuned in. I know we had one or two comments earlier and pail says, thank you Marsha. Really interesting and an engaging chat. And Kirsty again give us a lovely endorsement at the start. [00:49:00] So Ma, you've been an amazing guest and I really appreciate it and to you and the audience who are listening to us.
I don't know virtually in the future or being here. Thank you so much. I'm gonna end the livestream now. Marsha, stay on stage. Stay there before you go and make your dinner. But thank you everyone. I'll see you again soon. Take care. Bye-bye.