Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Stories of veteran service and sacrifice straight from the people driving today’s most important veterans causes and veterans organizations around the world. The show shines a spotlight on their inspiring projects making a real difference for veterans and their families, and along the way we'll hear the stories that drive them to do their best every day as they work to support veterans and their memory.
00:00:06:01 - 00:00:26:02
Speaker 1
Hey, it's Matthew Cudmore and welcome to Story Behind the Stone. Today we're joined by Jim Landon of Atco Front Tech. Jim served in the British Army for 28 years and today serves as a leader in the world of defense. In today's episode, we talk about the lessons learned across international operations, the realities of veterans transition, and why remembrance and readiness matter in a rapidly changing world.
00:00:26:04 - 00:00:39:15
Speaker 1
Jim, thanks for sharing your experience and for the work you're doing to support veterans and those who continue to serve. And to our listeners, thanks for tuning in.
00:00:39:17 - 00:01:04:23
Speaker 1
Welcome to Story Behind the Stone, where we talk service, sacrifice and story, bringing you the most interesting people in veteran pauses and commemoration. My name is Ryan Mullins. I'm with Memory Anchor, a company dedicated to changing the way the world remembers while using technology for good. Today, I am so happy to be joined here on site in person, which is always a treat with Jim Landon with our cold front tech.
00:01:05:05 - 00:01:08:21
Speaker 1
Jim, thank you so much for taking time to be with us today.
00:01:08:23 - 00:01:12:18
Speaker 2
Really happy to join you and I hope this will be fun. I'm sure it will be.
00:01:12:20 - 00:01:32:05
Speaker 1
Echo front tech and echo is very active in the military community. But further to that too is you have an interesting military history as well in in your past, which you know, lends to what you do as well today, but you have some also some interesting perspectives on that. And so I'm hoping we can cover a couple couple of these topics as we go through.
00:01:32:10 - 00:01:39:07
Speaker 1
But I think first, the best place to start is maybe for our listeners who aren't familiar with Echo and Echo Frontier, what are you as a business?
00:01:39:08 - 00:02:06:08
Speaker 2
Echo is a is a global company, sort of 7000 or so employees, directly employed. And, and, you know, a large number amount of that is here in Canada. But we're also we operate in, in the US and in South America, Australia and Europe. A large part of our Co is the utility business, which a lot of people here in Canada would be very familiar with, and the structures business, which is the Atco trailers that, you know, you see all over the place with a yellow stripe around the top and so on.
00:02:06:10 - 00:02:45:18
Speaker 2
And that's the original business of Atco. But Atco front is the business unit within Atco that deliver services. And so we're all about people delivering services to people, and we specialize in supporting government and defense and then commercial clients so that they can sort of focus on whatever their key mission is. So that might be anything from operating right up in the Arctic, which we do with Inuit partners, to operate and maintain the North warning system for, for narrate through to looking after airfields for the Canadian Air Force, through and looking after barracks buildings here in Alberta for for the day and day.
00:02:45:18 - 00:03:06:18
Speaker 2
And then we also operate for NATO over in Europe and for the US military down in the US. And then also we do services in workforce housing camps. So the camp service is part of the business, very important part of it. Almost any major project that you do in Canada is going to be remote by definition. And so it needs a workforce housing camp for the workforce to live in.
00:03:06:20 - 00:03:18:13
Speaker 2
And we do everything from, cooking the meals to cleaning the rooms to booking people in and out to looking after the buildings. So it's all about services. And it's for that mixture of government and defense and commercial clients.
00:03:18:17 - 00:03:33:02
Speaker 1
The staff that I've seen and always engage with at Acpo, you really see that coming through is they're their people and they're engaging with people. And I think that's a culture that is going throughout and informs a lot of the work you guys do here.
00:03:33:04 - 00:03:49:23
Speaker 2
Yeah. I think, you know, we very much care about people this company has a real culture of long service. There are an awful lot of people here who serve five, ten, 15 to 20, 30 years. It's sort of a thing that is rather in common with the military, to be honest. And there's also an awful lot of families.
00:03:49:23 - 00:04:16:18
Speaker 2
People always said to me when I joined, oh, that was a real family company. And I must admit, at first I thought they were just talking about the southern family who own it. And then after a while, I realized that's not really what they meant. What they really meant was that there are a lot of families within Atco, so you'll find brothers, sisters, fathers, sons, mothers, daughters, cousins working across this company and I think that's, you know, actually a very interesting thing.
00:04:16:20 - 00:04:26:21
Speaker 2
If you were prepared to recommend this company to your spouse, to your brother or sister or whatever is a good place to work, that says something about the company and about the culture.
00:04:26:21 - 00:04:49:06
Speaker 1
That kind of drive to serve and that goes through generations. And in that, it's kind of funny that parallel comes in because part of obviously what we talk a lot about is service from a military perspective. But there is a lot of service that ACOs doing as well. And we were talking a little bit before the show about some of your involvement with Invictus Games and stuff like that.
00:04:49:06 - 00:04:54:17
Speaker 1
So our code takes a pretty active stance in the military and veteran community, don't they?
00:04:54:17 - 00:05:18:06
Speaker 2
They do. Absolutely. And I mean, in fact, it's how I came to to to join Co after I left the military was that I had met them whilst I was still in uniform at Spruce Meadows as part of this sort of joining up, if you like, that happens at Spruce Meadows, where the Canadian military and the British military play quite a sort of central part in, in the Masters tournament in September.
00:05:18:06 - 00:05:41:16
Speaker 2
And, you know, are there to, to celebrate and provide some of the pageantry, if you like, for the events that go on, but are also being very much celebrated at cohorts of military families appreciation Day at Spruce Meadows as well. And so, so I think, you know, there is always been a close bond here where we're situated here in in Echo Park in Calgary, is where RCAF Calgary was as well.
00:05:41:16 - 00:06:10:20
Speaker 2
And this was part of the effort of training pilots during the Second World War, which many Canadians will be familiar with. And the sight of the of the Atco Park head office now is where the fire station was here, and fire hall and in the fire hall were one Mr.. Southern as a firefighter in the Canadian Air Force, and he left his discharge money from the Air Force was half of the capital required to found Atco.
00:06:10:22 - 00:06:27:15
Speaker 2
The other half came from his son, Ron Southern. He'd been working as a busboy in the Bam Springs Hotel. They put the money together and that was the seed capital to begin Atco. Our roots go back absolutely into service and into that history in the Second World War.
00:06:27:18 - 00:06:52:04
Speaker 1
I think that's actually really phenomenal. And and when you think it's, you know, 80 plus years on now and our Co is still out there living this, this heritage that found it living the values and the roots and, and I think that is something that is so special because for a company to continue to living the values and culture to this day from the back then is phenomenal.
00:06:52:04 - 00:07:13:14
Speaker 1
And so you're seeing that out in Spruce Meadows out and how you participating in the Invictus game. And then someone like yourself who's had a lot of service, you know, it's it's no wonder that you were pulled into this because it kind of fits into your history. And, Jim, maybe you want to share a little bit about your background and what you brought to you here and to the work you do today.
00:07:13:16 - 00:07:31:02
Speaker 2
Yeah, certainly. So I was 28 years in the British Army, an infantry officer, I joined, went to Sandhurst when the Berlin Wall was still standing. I am, in fact that out. And, and then the Berlin Wall came down, actually, whilst I was at Sandhurst and I thought, oh, what are we going to do now?
00:07:31:03 - 00:07:49:04
Speaker 2
You know, one of those moments when you realize the sort of the world is changing and then by the time I was passing out from Santa, Saddam Hussein had invaded, Kuwait. And we were off into, you know, into the, into a new world of being busy. And the British Army wasn't as busy, I think, as it has ever been in its history.
00:07:49:05 - 00:08:12:05
Speaker 2
Throughout my time, I found myself in on operations around the world, from from Northern Ireland to Bosnia to Kosovo to Sierra Leone to Iraq and Afghanistan. During the course of my career and then towards the end of my career, I was very lucky to get the chance to come to Canada again. I'd been here a couple of times in the past, to the British Army training unit at Suffield and here in Alberta.
00:08:12:07 - 00:08:28:07
Speaker 2
What was at that time the largest Life Army maneuver training center that the British Army had access to anywhere in the world. So I came to take over the command of that in 2012, thinking we'd be here a couple of years and then sort of go back to the UK and carry on with my career and so on.
00:08:28:09 - 00:08:46:23
Speaker 2
Within a year, my wife, who'd never been to North America, said, right, that's it, you're getting out. We're staying here in Canada. And, so we sort of started that process and went through the permanent residency. And so, process and as I say, during that time, it also met at and sort of developed a little bit of a network here in Calgary.
00:08:46:23 - 00:09:08:09
Speaker 2
And so but I went back to Afghanistan for one last tour in 2016 and then left and joined joined Atco in in 2017. So I think it was, you know, I had a very interesting career. You know, I went to lots of different places, saw lots of different things. And I think, you know, by the time I got to the end of my career, I was ready to to leave and do something else.
00:09:08:09 - 00:09:11:22
Speaker 2
So the the opportunity with that code was, was really excellent for me.
00:09:12:00 - 00:09:32:03
Speaker 1
We were talking a little earlier, just about kind of the veteran experience. And, you know, ACOs very active with supporting active military reservists, and also veterans. When you think of your own personal experience or when you think of veterans coming into the workplace, what's the important thing that comes along with those vets?
00:09:32:07 - 00:09:56:17
Speaker 2
I think bringing veterans in is they have an awful lot to offer. And, you know, I think anybody who's been in a leadership position in the military, any branch, any, nationality and so on, they've learned how to plan. They've learned how to project, manage as well, and they've learned to build a team to care about the individuals in the team, you know, and to bring those teams together to deliver mission success.
00:09:56:17 - 00:10:16:00
Speaker 2
So you know, how to do that. Well, that's incredibly transferable, because certainly here in Atco front, that's what we do all the time. You know, every time we mobilize a new project, we put in a bunch of people. Some of them may know each other before they get there. In most cases, they won't. And a leader has to come in and build them into a team.
00:10:16:02 - 00:10:47:05
Speaker 2
Get to know them all as individuals, get them to understand what they should be doing, and then get them to deliver that that service that the client is paying for. So I think it's it's incredibly sort of common things that we do. And it also, I mean, certainly with the workforce housing camps, you know, if you've been in the military, whether you've seen a civilian workforce housing camp or not, you've kind of lived in one somewhere because they're so similar, a little bit more luxurious, I must say, on the civilian side than on the military side, in most cases.
00:10:47:10 - 00:11:23:07
Speaker 2
But, you know, that sort of business of being able to set something like that up and operate it in a very austere location in the middle of nowhere, you know, that's something that that is very common to, to the military experience. So I think, you know, that's something that veterans bring. The other thing the veterans bring, especially those who've served, I think, in the last sort of period when they were in Afghanistan or Iraq or Bosnia or anywhere like that really is, you had to learn to live and work in a culture other than your own, this different set of skills to doing that and an attitude of mind.
00:11:23:07 - 00:11:50:12
Speaker 2
I think that, you know, you have to go there and learn about that culture and learn about what is normal and how they work together and how they operate, and so on. In order to be effective, anyone who worked as an advisor in Afghanistan would have lived this, you know, in spades. I think I often felt when I was sat with my Afghan generals that they were playing three dimensional Game of Thrones chess, and, you know, sort of struggling to keep up with it.
00:11:50:14 - 00:12:09:20
Speaker 2
But I think you know, where we operate, we operate internationally. So this is very applicable there. But also, you know, I'm an immigrant to Canada and I've had to learn about Canadian culture. And it's not massively different to British culture, but there are significant differences. But I've also had to learn about the history of indigenous peoples.
00:12:09:22 - 00:12:32:00
Speaker 2
And the situation where they find themselves in now and in the future, because a lot of our business is with indigenous partners. And so I think, again, transferable skills, if you come with an attitude of mind that you're going to learn about this and have respect for other people's cultures and be interested, then that goes a long way in building the relationships that are so important for business.
00:12:32:05 - 00:12:51:09
Speaker 1
The word that's coming to mind for me is agility. Something I think the military really taught me was it's almost a perspective that you cultivate is that, you know, the Tasha outcome, because what drives the outcome a lot of time is the situation and that you're agile, you're you know, where you're going, we're going to complete this mission.
00:12:51:09 - 00:12:53:01
Speaker 1
But how we complete it might change.
00:12:53:05 - 00:13:12:22
Speaker 2
Absolutely, absolutely. I think the other thing that I would say is really important, the other two sort of characteristics you like, one is humility. You know, when you go through transition from the military, you know, you can be confident about what you've done in the past and what you've learned. But, you know, you've got to translate that into a language that people will understand.
00:13:13:00 - 00:13:29:23
Speaker 2
But you've also got to be humble about what you don't know. And there will be things you don't know. And I know you know, a lot of veterans who say, oh, I was responsible for millions of dollars of equipment and and the lives of people. And. Yeah, absolutely. Were. But you weren't running a profit and loss account. It was different.
00:13:30:01 - 00:13:55:14
Speaker 2
You know, you were looking after things. You was spending money very often, probably quite large budgets in some cases, but you weren't trying to make money. And that's different. And so I think, you know, when I made that transition, I tried to be as open as possible, with people about what I didn't understand. And I was very lucky to have some excellent people in my team who, you know, well, they might have thought I was a complete idiot, but they were polite enough not to say so.
00:13:55:16 - 00:14:21:23
Speaker 2
And that would explain to me things in, in, you know, in, in words of not too many syllables so that I could learn those commercial concepts that I didn't understand. So I think it's really important to be humble about what you don't know. And then coupled to that is an attitude of lifelong learning, which I've always been very keen on, which is that, you know, you never done learning how to say in the Army, you know, every day is a school day is so true.
00:14:22:01 - 00:14:38:21
Speaker 2
You know, I think if you go through a day and you haven't learned anything new, then it's not a wasted day. But if you haven't done it to the full extent, I always tried to make sure I'm learning something new all the time. And so I think taking an attitude of, you know, I've got things to learn and I'm going to put the effort in to learn them.
00:14:38:21 - 00:14:40:21
Speaker 2
That's, I think, really important.
00:14:40:23 - 00:14:48:11
Speaker 1
You know, and that word humility comes up again in that because I think that the day you think you've figured it out, you're in trouble. Absolutely right.
00:14:48:13 - 00:14:49:08
Speaker 2
Absolutely.
00:14:49:13 - 00:15:07:17
Speaker 1
So you have to have that humility to recognize that that learning is ongoing. We always say there's transferable skills from the army to and yes, there are, but it's the same but different. And you have to have that humility to to recognize as I get you can apply some of these things, but it is different. So you have to learn.
00:15:07:19 - 00:15:25:11
Speaker 2
Absolutely. And I think also I would just say, you know, as a health warning, I'm talking about my job, my team, my business that I'm working and what I've learned. I'm not saying that's applicable to every single business or, you know, every single person. Everybody will come with their own different sets of experiences and so on. And then going to a business where you going to learn different things.
00:15:25:11 - 00:15:53:17
Speaker 2
What I found helpful is that the military is basically especially in the infantry end of it. It's all about people and teams coming together to deliver an outcome. And so that basic knowledge of how to build a team and how to care about individuals so they feel part of the team, you know, that is ingrained, I think, in most leaders in the military and in the people business that I'm in, it's equally applicable.
00:15:53:17 - 00:15:58:05
Speaker 2
So I think that's, you know, the common thread that I found to be very healthy.
00:15:58:07 - 00:16:13:19
Speaker 1
Coming back to the people, serving people again, you can see how that was a really good culture fit for our culture, hence why I think there's a lot of activity continuing to going on at Alcoa, where you're doing things like supporting Invictus or, other things like that.
00:16:13:20 - 00:16:40:12
Speaker 2
Yeah. So we didn't have a formalized program for recruiting veterans or helping them to integrate. When I joined, it was a bit of a gap, and it was something that the CEO, Nancy Sutherland, wanted to address. And so we started working on that, sort of not long after I joined in, you know, how would we try to do that better?
00:16:40:12 - 00:16:59:16
Speaker 2
And I brought some veterans into into our co front tech, people that I knew who were fit for certain different jobs and so on. And, you know, encouraged people to apply for jobs when I saw them sort of coming up. And so but through the and becoming involved in Victor. So we got involved with interface to street true patriot love.
00:16:59:16 - 00:17:17:12
Speaker 2
So true patriot love the charity. Lots of people will be familiar with the supports Canadian veterans. We got involved through the Nicola Goddard Award to start with. I think. And then we started getting more and more sort of interested in it, and it just happened to coincide with True Patriot love working to bring the Invictus Games to Canada.
00:17:17:14 - 00:17:39:20
Speaker 2
So I went to the Netherlands, to the first Invictus Games I went to when we sponsored Team Canada through True Patriot Love, and it was whilst we were in the Netherlands at the games there in The Hague that we found out the games are going to come to, to, to Vancouver, Whistler. And so at that point we started getting into a bit more of a discussion about, okay, should we play a bigger role in this?
00:17:39:20 - 00:17:56:19
Speaker 2
And I had one of those wonderful decision briefings with my CPA where I said, well, there's three options. There's the sort of little bit down here, there's the sort of middle one, and then there's this one which is rather more expensive. And, you know, which one do you want to go for? I think her words or something like it's go big or go home gym.
00:17:56:20 - 00:17:57:05
Speaker 2
So I thought.
00:17:57:06 - 00:17:57:17
Speaker 1
A lot of,
00:17:57:19 - 00:18:23:18
Speaker 2
So that's how we came to be a co-presenting sponsor with Boeing of the, of the Invictus Games in Vancouver. And, I then had the opportunity to be on the board for those games and, and to play a part in sort of shaping how they were put together. And I was an absolutely fascinating experience. I've never been involved in seeing how a major sporting event is put on, along with sort of television and media coverage and all the rest of it.
00:18:23:18 - 00:18:39:15
Speaker 2
It's there's a whole lot of things I'd never seen before, and I learned a lot by being a part of it. And I also went out to the Invictus Games in Germany and, and saw those as well, because we consider we've continued to sponsor Team Canada to all of the games, and we obviously played a big part.
00:18:39:21 - 00:19:10:12
Speaker 2
Any Invictus, and we will continue sponsoring Team Canada and being involved in Invictus Media in the future. I think one of the things we decided to do, though, as a part of the Invictus effort, was to formalize, how we would approach, bringing veterans into go and supporting the wounded. Not okay. So we formed of a veterans employment resource group, and that helped us to find the veterans that we already had because we didn't actually know in all honesty, how many veterans we really had.
00:19:10:12 - 00:19:31:01
Speaker 2
And it was more than we thought. We also took on, somebody full time in, at Koha, in the recruiting team, who is the specific point of contact for veterans. And so he runs initiatives that go out there looking for veterans and translating coach jobs into, you know, how this would work for veterans and so on, and access that point of contact.
00:19:31:03 - 00:19:51:07
Speaker 2
So I think we've formalized a lot of things, that we had not done before. But we also, I think, through the Invictus Games in Vancouver was that we sent a lot of Acco employees there as volunteers. A lot of people, saw the games and saw the publicity surrounding them and the videos that we did and so on and so forth.
00:19:51:09 - 00:20:07:09
Speaker 2
And so I think it opened an awful lot of people's minds to what it means to be a veteran, what it means, to have served what Invictus does. You know, we reached a lot of people across the UK and a lot of our employees who may have had nothing to do with the military themselves in their own lives.
00:20:07:11 - 00:20:14:17
Speaker 2
We're very proud of our Co's role in the games. And and so I think it's been an all round positive for us as a result.
00:20:14:20 - 00:20:23:23
Speaker 1
What piece of advice would you give another company when it comes to that veteran initiative? What would you say would be the one thing they could do that would make a difference?
00:20:24:01 - 00:20:56:02
Speaker 2
I would reach out to somebody that you think's doing it well, not necessarily ask. There are plenty of other companies that are doing this because you'll find this is not commercially sensitive or secret. People are more than willing to share their experiences as what we did. We spoke, to. So CPK rail, here in Calgary, I actually had a number of friends who, had left the British military and people from the Canadian military and U.S. military who work in KC, one of their air people who did a similar job to the one I just talked about in that co used to work with me about us.
00:20:56:02 - 00:21:17:05
Speaker 2
So I knew him, so I knew what he'd done. So we we compared a lot of no. So we sort of talk to each other and the veterans, you know we talk to each other and I ask what works, what doesn't work? What do we need to try? And so we've been trying to do that, I think ever since Julian talking to other companies when we're at events and so on, and looking at what they're doing and who would that work for us and how well would that work for us?
00:21:17:05 - 00:21:22:18
Speaker 2
And so, so I think, reach out for advice. Don't try and do it off a blank piece of paper. You don't need to.
00:21:22:21 - 00:21:45:06
Speaker 1
Earlier we were talking before we started recording, and you had brought some really interesting points because, you know, we're talking Invictus and we think of other organizations like Wounded Warrior and, and such like this. These are really, really important for bringing awareness of, you know, some of the cost of service. Yet, you know, we have a perception out there of what a veteran is.
00:21:45:08 - 00:21:56:15
Speaker 1
And sometimes that's that's helpful and sometimes it not. If you were to think of that perception, what do you think is one of the most important things when perceiving a veteran and thinking about playing and workplace.
00:21:56:20 - 00:22:17:11
Speaker 2
Invictus and a number of the other charities that work in the space do a great job in supporting those that need to support, and those that have physical injuries or that have, post-traumatic stress or something similar. And they need support to, to get back on their feet. And I think these charities do a fabulous job of doing that.
00:22:17:12 - 00:22:38:02
Speaker 2
And I have heard countless success stories from people of all nations and military, you know, people familiar with. So working alongside in Afghanistan and so on of the success stories that have come through Invictus and and it is it's impressive. It's humbling. If you're involved in Invictus and don't end up crying quite frequently, then you're not a human.
00:22:38:02 - 00:22:59:17
Speaker 2
I'm telling you, I'm so, so I think that is fantastic what it does. There is a slight risk and I do worry about sometimes, which is that if that is all that is seen in the public eye, then I think, you know, the public, there is a risk that they start seeing veterans as being mad, bad or sad.
00:22:59:17 - 00:23:32:10
Speaker 2
And the vast majority of veterans have served gained an awful lot from their service. Learned a lot. Yes, served their country, but they've also taken away a whole bag full of transferable skills. And most of us have an unending supply of funny stories as well. If you get them said barrel to and they can bring an awful lot to an organization, a civilian organization, when they transition out of the military and so I think, you know, I worry sometimes whether we're getting the balance right.
00:23:32:10 - 00:23:55:07
Speaker 2
I don't want to stop support to, to to the people that Invictus and others support. That's not what I'm saying. But what I'm saying is, I think there are many more success stories that perhaps don't get the same level of publicity. And of course, there's also people who go through the Invictus process, and then they become great success stories as well and, you know, become absolute credit to the organization that they work in, benefits and assets to them.
00:23:55:07 - 00:24:17:03
Speaker 2
So I think, you know, I wouldn't want people to go away with the impression that we all need help. You know, and actually, when you look into the veteran charity world as well, and also a lot of the work that's being done in the effort is being done to support veterans, is being done by other veterans. And so we are a really good community at supporting each other, which is, I think, really important.
00:24:17:03 - 00:24:43:07
Speaker 2
And that goes on to all kinds of scales. You know, we see the big organizations in the in the media and so on. But I was back in the UK recently and went to a reunion for my own regiment from from people who served in the Balkans together. And, you know, the vast majority of stories that I was listening to from people where they had had help just networking into a job or something, or they'd had actual help with something where they had a problem most of the time.
00:24:43:07 - 00:24:58:05
Speaker 2
So telling me they had it either from a mate, another veteran, or they'd had it from the regiment and it's it's small scale, charity. So there's an awful lot of work goes on, I think all the time to, to support each other. We are a great network for that.
00:24:58:09 - 00:25:14:22
Speaker 1
Those are really valid points because there's an emotional connection when you see some of the the sacrifices that people are physically and mentally done on the battlefield. And the other side of that is those individuals that may not be carrying any other or have healed from those and have a lot to offer.
00:25:15:03 - 00:25:34:04
Speaker 2
One of the great things I, you know, I still love about veterans and this is international as well as we have fabulous black humor. I was at the Invictus Games, one of the medal ceremonies, and I was presenting medals to two Americans at a Polish guy who had been on the skeleton bog. I did it during the one year ago celebration.
00:25:34:04 - 00:25:54:18
Speaker 2
It is a truly terrifying and fabulous experience. Where stood dance I'm about to go on the stage and one of the American guys look at us. We got two and a half legs between us. You know, I was sort of gag on the stage laughing. Yeah, yeah. It is a sort of thing that only a veteran amputee, you could say to a bunch of other veteran amputees, and everyone think it was funny.
00:25:54:18 - 00:26:19:04
Speaker 1
The dark humor is a beautiful coping in a light. Yeah, right. What that shows to me is actually just the immense resiliency and courage and just still finding joy in life. Like you said, I think when it comes to the veteran, employment and being a veteran employer, there's there's so many different benefits. And I think encouraging different employers to look into that is is great.
00:26:19:04 - 00:26:41:20
Speaker 2
I think actually it is one of the quieter but very effective parts of the Invictus movement. Suddenly enough is the networking of companies together that are wanting to be veteran friendly employers. I mentioned earlier, if you were going to try and learn how to do this and sort of link up with others who've done it, Invictus has actually enables that, and it runs workshops and forums and and networks and so on.
00:26:41:20 - 00:26:59:20
Speaker 2
As part of that, the games and so on happening in the background where employers get together and share best practice with each other. So I think there is definitely a movement in that area. And one of the things I really noticed with it as well is it tends to bring in the ministers and the senior officers and so on from the countries, and they come together.
00:26:59:20 - 00:27:11:22
Speaker 2
There's a whole medical symposium thing goes on in the week before the games. And so, you know, there's a whole load of stuff that happens, which is not just the games, but which is about making the veteran experience better.
00:27:11:22 - 00:27:19:08
Speaker 1
And that's, I think, the value of coming together across country and, you know, disciplines and everything. And but just coming in together.
00:27:19:08 - 00:27:41:00
Speaker 2
I think we've all watched the Americans do this much better than most of us for a long time. They do. I think, you know, as a Brit, I would look across at how the respect given to us veterans and the support given to them and think, oh God, we're not very good at doing this in the UK. And then when I became a Canadian, you know, I looked at all, we are not brilliant at doing it here either, you know.
00:27:41:00 - 00:28:06:13
Speaker 2
But then through Invictus, I watched this sort of spreading of ideas and, and the kind of joining up of, okay, how do you guys do that? And it is different and there are different amounts of money and I. Right. But you know this she could bring tears their eyes and OBE in The Hague and I was staying in the same hotel as the American team, the American team, you know, financially very well supported fabulous wheelchairs, prosthetics, service dogs everywhere, and so on.
00:28:06:13 - 00:28:31:18
Speaker 2
Fantastic. The Iraqi team was there, five guys and those are sharing wheelchairs almost. I mean, it was so bad and you think, wow, you know, and that is one of the things that Invictus is trying to do is trying to spread out into other countries around the world now, because obviously you started off as just a true contributing nations for for Afghanistan, but is now spread much wider and part of that is getting the message out there about how you treat your veterans, how you support your veterans, and so on.
00:28:31:18 - 00:28:39:11
Speaker 2
So I think we're all getting better, but there's definitely a spectrum. You know, according to which country you're from as to how good that looks.
00:28:39:13 - 00:28:56:19
Speaker 1
Matt and I went down to the opening ceremonies of Invictus, and that's something, you know, you said there that really captured you. Look at how the Americans have done it historically, and they're really good at it, going down to the games and seeing what Agco and the all the partners in Invictus put on there. It gave me chills.
00:28:56:19 - 00:29:06:22
Speaker 1
I was blown away when those soldiers started coming in from the different countries, and the Ukrainian soldiers came in and definitely felt a mark of pride that I hadn't felt in a long time watching that.
00:29:06:22 - 00:29:25:13
Speaker 2
I think we Canada did a fantastic job we did with the Invictus Games. When I was stood there at the opening ceremonies, I was looking outside the stadium as people were coming in. There were 40 odd thousand people in that stadium. I suspect about 5 to 10,000 were coming because it was the Invictus Games and they knew about veterans and they wanted to be there for that.
00:29:25:13 - 00:29:42:15
Speaker 2
And there were about 30,000 who were there to see the music, but they were 30,000 people who left with an education about what Invictus was, what it is to be a veteran. One of the things we did really well was the stories that they kept putting up in between different acts and so on, of individual veterans and their lives and what they've done and so on and so forth.
00:29:42:17 - 00:30:00:21
Speaker 2
And he just brought a whole thing to a broader human size. Yeah. To, to to the whole thing in between Katy Perry strutting her stuff and Noah Colin, who I didn't know who that was until my kids told me and and now I'm a fan, you know, so I think yeah, it was, it was a we did a really good thing there about getting the message out.
00:30:00:22 - 00:30:10:06
Speaker 1
There was just poignant moments. And I just can't help bringing this one up. But the bagpiper, that piece was probably one of the peak moments sticker him play.
00:30:10:08 - 00:30:33:09
Speaker 2
Yeah, I met him in Germany, actually. And you know, those of us who served in Iraq and Afghanistan, we familiar and and Bosnia as well. It was the first ramp ceremony I ever did. You know, the ram ceremony is difficult to understand, to explain to civilians. But, you know, the soldiers who are the mates of the people who have died won't be at the funeral because they can't be because they're still on the operation.
00:30:33:11 - 00:30:57:14
Speaker 2
So for those actual the mates of the people who've been killed, the funeral is the ramp ceremony. The ramp ceremony is the funeral. That's it. That's all there's going to be. And so it's important. It's done really, really well. And it does look very much like a funeral. Everyone is on parade, but the difference is you're not stood in some leafy green cemetery somewhere.
00:30:57:16 - 00:31:13:10
Speaker 2
You stood on an airfield and the the fight is still going on around you. Jets are taking off, helicopters are coming in and out. So there is all the noise still going on. Let me try and quieten it down for a round of ceremonies. If you can't entirely. And then you know there is a bearer party. There are flag draped coffins.
00:31:13:12 - 00:31:36:12
Speaker 2
They are loaded into the back of the aircraft and the aircraft door closes in the same way that you would see in a cremation. In a funeral, if you like. The whole ceremony is designed to serve as a funeral. But the bagpiper playing is, you know, last post. And then, you know, the element from the bagpipes is such a military thing that it takes everyone back there.
00:31:36:14 - 00:31:53:18
Speaker 2
And so, yes, you can say the bagpipes or any in that case, the corporal who had played all those round ceremonies, because of course there aren't that many bagpipes. Normally it's fair to so whoever's there ends up doing a lot of ramp ceremonies as he did. And, you know, not just for Canadians, but for anybody and everybody because you're all in it together.
00:31:53:20 - 00:32:10:15
Speaker 2
Nationality doesn't matter. And that's the other thing. Is it all nationalities, all turnout at ramp ceremonies, whether it's your soldiers or not, you're there representing as you're all in the fight together. And so he played a lot and then he yeah, he couldn't play again. He couldn't bring himself to pick up the bagpipes. When he returned to Canada.
00:32:10:17 - 00:32:29:06
Speaker 2
And he played for the first time in Germany for, for, Harry when he, visited kind of a house, as part of this and look forward to the games. And then Harry told that story in the, in the closing ceremony in Germany. And then that was that beautiful link into the opening ceremony in Canada was that he retold the story, and then he and it goes so brave.
00:32:29:06 - 00:32:53:02
Speaker 2
I mean, 40,000 seater stadium. And he was sort of right in the middle of it on his own, playing the pipes. And then the most enormous bagpipe band I've heard more bagpipes in Canada than I ever heard in the UK had to say, you know, pound for pound, there are definitely more, bagpipes in, in Canada. But they all came in and what I loved about it was, I think if we'd done it in the UK, they would have all been military bands.
00:32:53:02 - 00:32:59:23
Speaker 2
But that's not how we doing. Canada. Everyone was a part of it. It was a truly massed Canadian effort. It was fantastic.
00:33:00:01 - 00:33:03:11
Speaker 1
What do you feel the importance of commemoration or remembrance is?
00:33:03:11 - 00:33:30:20
Speaker 2
I think it is really important, especially now, I think to as I get older, I think the first Remembrance Day that I would have remembered from being at school and so on, it was abstract. You were thinking about masses of soldiers, service personnel that had died in the First and Second World Wars, and so you weren't necessarily thinking about any individual person because it's just too big to get your head around kind thing, and you didn't necessarily have that connection the same way.
00:33:30:22 - 00:33:53:07
Speaker 2
And then I think as I've got older and unfortunately, the the list of people that I have personally known who have been mates have been soldiers under command, soldiers in the same unit and so on that have died on operations that I've been on. You know, that's who I think about when I'm stood there now at remembrance parades, you remember those who are not there with you.
00:33:53:07 - 00:34:10:21
Speaker 2
For those who for them that the clock stopped. And I think that's, you know, it makes it much more personal and it's much more focused on, you know, the time of my own service and so on. I still think about, you know, the the fact that we're able to stand there is due to the efforts of those who've gone before us.
00:34:10:23 - 00:34:32:12
Speaker 2
There's some painting somewhere, you know, that show veterans. There's certainly a British from the so veterans from the first, Second World War, right through all of the wars in Korea and, and and Northern Ireland and Iraq and Afghanistan was are all in a bar together, all in their different uniforms from a different period, a bit of a Valhalla type photo, a picture if you like.
00:34:32:12 - 00:34:49:09
Speaker 2
And I, I tend to think of it a little bit like that. That is where people have gone, gone to say so I think it is important to remember. The other thing I would say is that now so few people, so even in the United States, where service, you know, there are far bigger armed forces, it's still a tiny percentage of the total population.
00:34:49:09 - 00:35:07:21
Speaker 2
So the linkage to knowing somebody that has served just isn't there, not there in the UK. It's not really here in Canada. For those of us that have served, we're not even necessarily aware of it because we all know each other. And we move in veteran circles and so on. So to us, it's of course everyone that you know, you know, veterans, certainly.
00:35:07:21 - 00:35:25:06
Speaker 2
But actually the vast majority of people don't. And so I think it is important that we keep on educating them. We keep on talking about it. I'm involved in some of the educational programs here through the Military Museums Foundation, because I think it's important that we do keep talking about it, that, you know, this didn't happen by accident.
00:35:25:08 - 00:35:43:06
Speaker 2
You know, the history not repeating itself, but rhyming. I talked about, you know, when I joined the Army in 1989, the world changed. It was all about, oh, what's next going to saying it feels a bit like that right now to me. We've gone through this sort a postwar period of of spending the peace dividend, post-Cold War period spending the peace dividend like crazy.
00:35:43:08 - 00:36:20:15
Speaker 2
But now suddenly we've realized, oh, it's not all peace and light. And the economic activity and democracy were not going to just happen in China and Russia and so on. Or, you know, just by magic and actually there are people who want what we have, and we'll take it from us by force if they have to. It feels like one of those moments in history where people are all and I think the that the next step after that is to realize that if you're going to need bigger armed forces, that's going to need more people to serve, it's going to need more sacrifice in terms you money you spend on tanks you can't spend on
00:36:20:15 - 00:36:33:11
Speaker 2
hospitals or dental care or something. So I think we are still, as a country, coming to terms with what that means and having a sense of history and understanding how we got to where we are is important. When we think about where we've got to go next.
00:36:33:13 - 00:36:51:22
Speaker 1
One of the biggest parts of our identity is, is based on those history and those who have served. And to hold that and an umbrella in place is important, because if you're a young person and you're thinking of joining, you're joining a history of lineage of people who serve for value, for purpose. And we have to remember that.
00:36:51:23 - 00:37:11:09
Speaker 2
Absolutely. And I think certainly, you know, when you go by that in if I talk about as an infantry officer, I belong to a regiment, we were very conscious of our regimental history in every infantry regiment, I'm sure in and many other regiments, you know, they could tell you about where there you have regiments history, you know, where they had served, what they had done and what happened at various battles and so on and so forth.
00:37:11:11 - 00:37:37:17
Speaker 2
And that was very much a part of of who we were, because you were conscious that you were standing on the shoulders of those who had gone before you, and you needed to live up to that reputation. And it's a very important part of it. And it's really interesting how quickly history sort of goes into the past. So I look now at pictures of of young fusileers or troopers or gunner set in the British military, and you can tell if you're a veteran, you can read people's memory medals and know where they've been and what they've done.
00:37:37:17 - 00:37:53:13
Speaker 2
So it was a period when I was serving. When we joke, we looked like Chelsea Pensioners because we all ended up with great racks of medals, because we kept getting sent places because that's what it was like in that period. But now it's stopped. We've come to the end of Iraq and ever end of Afghanistan. There's not many people in Syria.
00:37:53:15 - 00:38:12:18
Speaker 2
There's not many big operations going on around the world. So suddenly you look at the younger soldiers and they are sort of, you know, they might be a sort of Jubilee medal or something. And that's about it. And it's really interesting how quickly that happens, how quickly that that accumulated, you know, service experience and time moves on.
00:38:12:18 - 00:38:16:19
Speaker 2
And we get older and we leave and we go to do something else, you know, and then the next generation comes along.
00:38:16:20 - 00:38:22:05
Speaker 1
Like you said, history will rhyme. And I think we need a population that's willing to be on guard.
00:38:22:05 - 00:38:42:21
Speaker 2
Absolutely. And I think people are waking up to it. They are feeling the threat. I think the sort of more recent polls showing strong support for for greater defense spending here in Canada, and I think that's overdue. And it's now a bit of a race to see how fast we can build up the capabilities that we've let sit on the side for too long.
00:38:42:22 - 00:38:49:18
Speaker 1
What's next? You know, when you think of echo Fantastic and what you're doing yourself here, what's the future look like?
00:38:49:18 - 00:39:03:09
Speaker 2
I think I've been with echo about eight, eight years now and, I'm very proud of the fact that I've. I joined the company and stayed with the company and a lot of veterans. I know when they leave, they do a year or two and then they decide it's not quite a fit for them, and they move on.
00:39:03:09 - 00:39:21:04
Speaker 2
I feel very, very fortunate that I got a real values match between what I thought was important and how I wanted to work and so on. And the company I joined, I have a boss who very much believes in Mission command, and so I have great freedom to deliver, but a responsibility to deliver as well. And I welcome that.
00:39:21:04 - 00:39:47:06
Speaker 2
So I really enjoy my job. There's never a dull day. There's always something interesting coming up. We are spread geographically here in Canada, coast to coast to coast. We have operations as far north as Canadian Forces station alert. Last stop before you end up meeting Santa, right the way down to the Labrador coast and across into BC, and then down to Texas in the U.S. and across to to, the Balkans and Hungary and in Europe.
00:39:47:08 - 00:40:12:04
Speaker 2
And we've always got new things that are coming up and new opportunities to build upon a new jobs to do and so on. Because we're a larger, you know, project based company, we, we start projects and then they run for a few years, and then they stop. And so we're constantly refilling that, that funnel of projects, if you like, which means that there's always something new to look at, always new problems to solve, always new challenges to take on.
00:40:12:06 - 00:40:29:08
Speaker 2
And it's just fantastically good fun. And I have a fabulous team of people that I'm lucky enough to work with. So I think, I should be doing this for a while yet and really enjoying it. I'm very proud of the fact that I CA who's coming along a little bit of a journey on on getting to be more veteran friendly.
00:40:29:08 - 00:40:45:14
Speaker 2
We've still got more work to do. We've got the Invictus Games coming up in 2027, in the UK that we'll be involved with. We've got some other, initiatives that we're doing with Invictus. We're going to be doing some Invictus Awards in the future, which I think will be really good for, for things that are happening between the games.
00:40:45:14 - 00:41:12:14
Speaker 2
I feel like we've got a lot to look forward to. And right now as well. I would say here in Canada that there is a sort of Venn diagram of, of political geostrategic interest going on, which is infrastructure projects, whether they be pipelines or mines or building things or whatever. It is the focus on the Arctic. I increase defense spending and we, Frontex, sit in the middle of that Venn diagram because we support all of those things.
00:41:12:16 - 00:41:17:11
Speaker 2
So for us, I think it's going to be a very busy, few years where absolutely ready to play our part.
00:41:17:11 - 00:41:35:19
Speaker 1
And I really appreciated you taking the time to talk to us and just listening to your story and your perspective. And what does it mean to be a veteran? And I remember when I left the military, I had said to me, one of my buddies was still in and just feeling like I wasn't serving, but he knew what I was doing was commemorating this as if where I'm.
00:41:35:19 - 00:41:47:23
Speaker 1
What are you talking about? He's still serving. And so when I sit here listening to you talk, I just I so appreciate how you've evolved your service. You're not in the military anymore, but you've evolved that service to look like something different.
00:41:48:02 - 00:42:07:16
Speaker 2
You know, you can't serve forever. None of us can. You've all got to leave at some point. And I always encourage people who are serving to think about, you know, when, when is that day coming and how prepared are you? I worked quite hard over a number of years to make sure I was going to be ready for the day when I left, because I didn't kind of want to get caught hopping at that moment, you know, and so thought a lot about it quite a lot.
00:42:07:16 - 00:42:24:00
Speaker 2
But it's still difficult to summarize. You know, who you are or what it is you want to do. Get that elevator pitch right and the rescue made and all that jazz. It's no easy. Then, as I say, I felt very happy here because I'm involved in a company that still provides support to defense. We keep those no phone system, right?
00:42:24:00 - 00:42:42:06
Speaker 2
I was turning, we, you know, help to look after the people in alert. We, you know, support the Air Force. We do all sorts things for the military. So we're still involved in supporting operations. We will be involved in and future support to operations elsewhere. We're still supporting NATO over in Europe and so on. So we're still very much part of the effort.
00:42:42:11 - 00:43:10:07
Speaker 2
But we're also doing wider things. We do certain amount of disaster response as well. We do down in the States. We were there after, the the hurricanes hit in North and South Carolina last year, supporting the National Guard to support the recovery effort. So it feels like we're doing things that matter. And also I think those projects of national importance, you know, whether it be pipelines or, hydro dams or, potash mines in Saskatchewan or whatever it is, all of these things are important to the economy.
00:43:10:12 - 00:43:19:18
Speaker 2
If we can't get the economy going and working, we can't get people employed and we can't look after the country as a whole. So I think it all contributes. And, and it's great to be a part of it.
00:43:19:18 - 00:43:25:20
Speaker 1
One thing you said right at the beginning, I don't know if it's an actual slogan or not, but it's sticking with me. It's people serving people.
00:43:25:22 - 00:43:49:14
Speaker 2
It's not confronting smoking it away kind of thing. Yeah. That is what we do. I and I think it's very important for us to remember that because people need to be well led and, you know, people love to be well lead. And people always say they don't leave jobs, they leave bad leaders. And so on. So we put quite a bit of effort into training our leaders, into leadership culture, into how we work as an organization.
00:43:49:16 - 00:43:54:21
Speaker 2
Because we want people to be a part of their team. We want them to feel welcome, to feel valued and to stay with us.
00:43:55:00 - 00:44:03:01
Speaker 1
Jim, this has been a really interesting podcast. I've really enjoyed talking to you, and I really want to thank you again for taking your time with us today.
00:44:03:04 - 00:44:10:18
Speaker 2
Great pleasure. Enjoyed talking to you. Thanks so much.
00:44:10:20 - 00:44:23:11
Speaker 1
Thanks so much for tuning in. Story. Behind the Stone is available on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on the Rise Across America Radio Network on iHeartRadio. Audacity and tune in to search for wreath.
00:44:23:14 - 00:44:24:14
Speaker 1
Thank you for tuning in.