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Leader Dogs for the Blind empowers people who are blind or visually impaired with the tools for safe and independent daily travel. Our goal is to educate, advocate, and share real life experiences of those with blindness. Come learn, laugh, and grow with us.
Taking The Lead Podcast_061024
Christina: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Taking the Lead podcast where we empower people to be unstoppable. I'm Christina Hepner with my co-host, Leslie Hoskins and Timothy Kyo. So I'm not sure I'm ready for this beginning chat because we have a different guest for the beginning of this chat that I'm gonna let Leslie introduce.
I'm not sure. I should have said yes to this.
Leslie: I am so excited because obviously I amm the number one fan here. Uh, but today with us, we have Johnny in studio
Timothy: here. Yeah. Can
Leslie: you believe it, Timothy, we are getting to the bottom of this.
Timothy: Oh. Finally, we're gonna get the correct answers to our questions.
Christina: Well correct by what terms?
So if you've been following a few episodes ago, and this has been an ongoing debate for over a year now, the five Ks that we do with Leader Dog, Johnny and I always run, and it's always a debate of who wins. It's actually, it's really not a debate. Yes it is.
Leslie: Because I actually win.
Timothy: Well, in your mind you win.
Leslie: All right, well, okay, Johnny, welcome. [00:01:00] Thank you. Thank you for being here today. We're delighted to have you. Thank you for having me on. Yes. So we had, most recently we had the Bark and Brew 5K. Yes, Johnny, tell us what really happened.
Johnnie: Like usual, I won.
Leslie: Yeah,
Johnnie: no, see, I guess
Leslie: we're done. That's it. That's not
Christina: how
Leslie: it
Christina: works.
Johnnie: Thanks for having me in us. Thanks for coming on, John. Up.
Christina: So Leslie was not there during the 5K portion. She came later in the day, so I texted her our times. I got 29 47. Granted, neither of us are runners. We just do this for fun. So people probably run way faster than that and Johnny got 34, 42. Okay, so real
Leslie: quick.
That's right. Those are the, that's great that you shared that. Yeah. There's a couple things I'd like to just point out to everybody listening. One, she has inside access, so no, she can get inside. And change those times and manipulate the scoring or whatever it is. So that's, no, that's, that's one. But I don't, Johnny, can you also give us, what were the, the guidelines, [00:02:00] right, of how do you win the race?
Johnnie: Well, here's the thing. Like everybody knows Christina can run faster than I can. That's no debate. And she may have crossed a finish line first. Her time may have been better for crossing the 5K finish line, but Leslie is the true finish line, and we all know this. And it's been that way for the last three races.
The first year I saw Leslie first. Mm-Hmm. So I won. Mm-Hmm. Last year, or I'm sorry, this past January for the frozen pot five cake, you jumped in
Christina: front of me.
Johnnie: But that's what, that's, that's what's, that's strategic. That's strategic.
Christina: And this year, so here's to Leslie. Yeah. I used the restroom
Leslie: and he
Christina: ran
Leslie: it.
This is my favorite part of the whole story, Timothy. So Timothy, I get to bark and brew around, I don't know, three 30 or so. I get there and I had just kind of walked in, hadn't even made it anywhere, and all of a sudden, John, Johnny comes running up to me. He's like, Hey. Have you seen Christina yet? And I said, no.
And he's like, yes, that means I win.
Timothy: Yeah, that's it. I was leave for three and I
Leslie: was like, it's so good to see you. He was like, oh, yeah, yeah. Hi. [00:03:00] But I was like, this is fantastic. So, uh, Donny was right there with me. There were witnesses, but Donny won.
Timothy: Yep.
Christina: You know why? That's the truth. Email and, and let us know who you think the true winner is, because I think it's me.
Leslie: I also, just so everybody knows, like. I think we should clip in part of the past episode where it says the guidelines that you have to see me first, but if that doesn't happen, you know it's because Christina didn't wanna do it because I dunno how to
Timothy: do it. Remember that episode? I remember that episode.
Christina: I don't
Leslie: remember
Timothy: that episode. Uhhuh. Okay, so like,
Christina: nor does anyone have access to
Johnnie: the
Christina: recording thing, so if you don't do it, it's not happening.
Johnnie: Here's my thing, like. You ran in 29 minutes. I ran 34. I knew Leslie wasn't there in the morning. I was saving my energy for later so I could be the one that runs up to her.
The past actually
Leslie: really smart.
Johnnie: It's called strategy.
Leslie: It really is. That's genius. It's
Johnnie: strategic.
Leslie: Listen, I love it. I'm so glad we finally got to the bottom of this. Yeah. Thank you Johnny, for your time today and dedication to this podcast. [00:04:00] And honestly your athletic ability. I know. And strategic planning.
You know what way to go.
Timothy: I know. Music training.
Leslie: Yeah.
Timothy: I'm out. Thank you for being three and three Yes. On these runs.
Leslie: So proud. So proud. You go
Timothy: four for four.
Leslie: Fantastic. Well, thank you. Seriously, Johnny, this has been so fun. And do let us know, email us or comment, uh, and let us know who you think the real winner is, even though we all know it, but we're gonna jump into it.
Today's guest we have are here to talk about considerations for people who are thinking about getting a guide dog right before or during college.
Christina: Chall Richardson has been with Leader Dog for almost a year and a half as a client service coordinator that specializes in the application process. And Alyssa Otis has been with Leader Dog for over 12 years as a guide dog mobility instructor, and now the outreach specialist,
Timothy: chall and Alyssa.
Welcome to the podcast. We'll start off with Shadell. What do you do for client service? Describe what you do.
Shannelle: Well, my main responsibility in client services is [00:05:00] to assist an applicant through the application process. I actually do this alongside my colleague Paula Mesa. We do this together. I. And the application process starts with the application.
We have a few different formats you can apply online. We have a, a version that's something you can download off of our website, and then if you need a physical copy, you reach out to client services and we are more than happy to mail you one of those physical copies. Along with that, we have a physician's, um, report that would have to be completed, a vision evaluation form.
A few personal references will be needed, a waiver and the video, the lovely video that always seems to be the hardest part of the application, but we would require a few interview questions, a home tour and an established destination route that you complete. That's at least 20 minutes. We take those materials to our admissions committee, they review that, and they make a decision.
Leslie: [00:06:00] Client services does so much. So Shale here is giving you a much condensed version 'cause that is the whole application process. But along with all that Shale and Paola and sometimes the rest of the team do a fantastic job of assisting through all of these things. So they're in constant contact with clients once they get that first application piece, like she mentioned, and then they're assisting, they're answering questions, they're helping reach out to medical professionals once they get certain waivers and different things like that.
Then on top of it too, they also do the camp applications, which we won't get into 'cause that is a whole other thing. Christina hates it when I start talking about camp because I won't stop. So we won't do that. That's true. But um, yeah, that is very true. Cha and Paola and the rest of the client services do a lot of behind the scenes work.
Um, and it's always fun too when we hear from clients and they're like, oh, you know, my first phone call was to Al and she just helped me. And it was like all of a sudden I'm there. And so, uh, definitely making a big difference at later dog. Um, and then we have welcoming back Miss Alyssa Otis. Yes. In the studio.
Thank you guys so much. [00:07:00] I love being here. Alyssa's fantastic. Yes, she is Guide dog, mobility instructor and now outreach specialist. And she's also hopped in on the podcast several times. Yes. As a fill in host and all sorts of stuff. So yeah, when Leslie's on vacation. Oh,
Timothy: all the timing.
Leslie: I have not missed an episode in a while.
It has been a while. I'll give you that. Then here. Um, and those vacations also work trips, but it's fine.
So, um, but today we are here to talk about, so this is a topic that actually should Al and Alyssa and everybody kinda brought to Christina and I, because what happens a lot of times is we get applications for younger. Adults, if you will, teens, sometimes. Um, and they're trying to figure out when is a good time to get a guide dog.
A lot of times people are like, I want a guide dog right before I go to college, 'cause that's gonna help me. And so there's just a lot to consider and things that go into this. So, um, Shal, I'll start back with you. What are some things that people need to take into consideration when thinking about getting a guide dog?
[00:08:00] Kind of like right before going into college.
Shannelle: I think ideally there's a few things to consider. Um, obviously to apply for a guide dog, you have to have routes and routines. We require an applicant to have at least two to three destination routes that they already, you know, they have established, they currently are working.
But something to consider when you're going to college is that you're also going to need those same routes and routines at your college campus as well. So my question to them would be, have you even had experience at that campus? Have you navigated that campus independently using your cane? Um, do you have routes there?
Um, another thing would be time. Um, guide dogs take a lot of time, just dogs in general. So you have to think about grooming, you have to think about, um, you know, playtime. They need a reward, they need that kind of, um, uh, to be established. Not every social event that you plan to go to, it's appropriate to have a guide dog.
So how do you plan on keeping them [00:09:00] entertained during those times? Yeah. Also living arrangements. Are you staying off campus in an apartment? Are you staying in a dorm? Do you navigate stairs to get to this dorm or apartment? Do you take an elevator? Is it the fourth floor? Just something to consider. And the last thing I would say is support.
In most instances, you're coming from physical support, and then when you're moving into campus, you're taking that away. You're not gonna have that readily available. So have you considered reaching out to the adapted services that are available to you on campus and maybe down the road if you have been approved for Guide Dog and you need to develop more routes, have you reached out to an ONM instructor in that area?
So those are just a few things to consider.
Christina: Absolutely. And so that's a lot to think about. You know, when you're making one, you're making a big transition in life, whether it's going back to school or going to college or high school, whatever it may be. Um, and you know, having that companion with you, Alyssa, you have worked with [00:10:00] so many clients and have done this with so many clients.
For the ones who are going through those transitions, what are some things that you work through with them when they're considering, you know, is it right to have my God dog at this time?
Alissa: Yeah, so I've worked with a lot of college age, uh, young adults before, and like Shell said, there's definitely considerations that they need to take into account.
But one of the things that I really focus on. Like Shale said is, do you know the environment that you're going to be in because that's going to help us be so much more successful with a dog if you're able to navigate the environment. So if you haven't been to that college campus yet, it's going to be a little bit more difficult.
There's going to be some, some learning on both your and the dog's part, as opposed to going back home to an environment that you know. Uh, perhaps, you know, you're, you're home wherever your parents are. Um, you know that environment and so now you can teach it to the dog. So now you guys are gonna be entering into a whole new type of environment where neither of you are fully competent.
[00:11:00] So one of the things that I really try and work on with people is making sure that they can either learn that environment prior to getting their dog or understand the fact that even if they go to college and with a dog and they don't know their environment, perhaps they have to take that cane out and learn that environment.
By themselves before introducing that dog. So really just reminding people that are interested at that age that a dog is not, just pick up the harness, tell 'em forward, find science class and the dog's not gonna be able to do that. So that's one of the biggest hurdles that I think that I see when working with young adults that are ready to be, uh, college age.
Leslie: It's a lot to consider Timothy. I'm just curious on your perspective, can you imagine getting a guide dog kind of at, at those younger years and that responsibility
Timothy: that, that that's something that uh, I know a lot of people go through and I would love to have the guide dog if I went to college and stuff like that with the eyesight I had.
And I can imagine that the environment's a lot different than the normal day life. Is that true that the, maybe the environment that they're trained on, is it different when they're being trained?
Alissa: [00:12:00] Yeah, so it's not that it's necessarily different. All of our dogs are trained with kind of what we would call a campus travel, which is just those windy sidewalks that have no, you know, clear direction.
Your orientation is just completely thrown off. Um, so it can definitely be, be challenging. One of the things that we do with a guide that helps in those situations is we. Teach them patterning. And I know Timothy, you know a lot about patterning. You know, it's, it's one of those tools that's great to use on a college campus.
And for those that are unclear or unsure of what patterning is, it's basically teaching your dog to find landmarks along the way on a route. So if you do have to walk through your college campus, yes, those are gonna be windy sidewalks, but you can of course, work with that instructor and then teach your dog how to stop along the way, just kind of as checkpoints.
Christina: Mm-Hmm. And I know so far we've talked a lot about, you know, the routes and those different things, so. This is probably that time of year where you start to get some of those calls and client services of people either, you know, maybe their parents are calling or they're calling. Wondering, you know, [00:13:00] what is the first step, you know, as someone who's wanting to do this, or a parent who's calling about maybe their child who's getting ready for college.
What is kind of some of the first considerations, that first step that they need to take to maybe prepare if. They do wanna go the direction of taking that guide dog to school.
Alissa: Yeah. So the first thing on my end as far as thinking about getting that dog is I really want you to think about those next eight to 10 years of your life because that's the time that a dog's gonna be working and I.
I don't know about everybody else, but between the age of 18 and 28 I changed quite a bit. Um, so just making sure that you're thinking into the future. This is not just a one day decision, this is a long-term decision. So I really try and kind of lay out the different things to. To consider prior to applying.
I also, of course, suggest that people go on our website, check out our virtual learning, because there's a lot of good information for prospective clients on there. We have some client testimonials from college age, uh, young adults that people can listen [00:14:00] to. Um, but I pretty much just try and lay out all of the things that you want to consider.
I'm never trying to discourage somebody from applying for a dog. I just wanna make sure that it's a well educated decision. And then on the application side, I'm sure there's, there's a place to start as well.
Shannelle: Yeah, I think knowing someone's day-to-day, um, at their home location or their home environment.
Um, and also if they have a plan, what's their day-to-Day going to be like on campus? Do they already have their schedule? Um, it would be nice to know if we could build those details off of that. And I think. In their own words is probably the best way. So going beyond our application, if someone could provide a couple of paragraphs of what their plan is for their dog, what their schedule's gonna look like, have they had that experience on campus already?
I think that just goes the extra mile. And I, I believe that our admissions committee would appreciate the forethought that has already been placed before they even review the file.
Leslie: I think too, right? Like client services, you [00:15:00] think about it, you guys really do have to know so much because you're talking people through all of the different programs to be able to have this knowledge about guide dogs and then specifically this situation about going into a university and campus.
How have you been able to learn so much? You've been, uh, a leader dog team member for a little over a year now? Yes. Uh, July will be a year and a half. Oh my goodness. Just so exciting. It feels like it's gone by fast. So fast. But what are some of the things that you've done to be able to learn all this?
'cause you really did bring this topic up of like, you're getting these phone calls and you're having these conversations. You kind of wanted another resource for people. Mm-Hmm. Um, but what have you done? How have you explored to learn all of this in a year?
Shannelle: Well, um, I have been doing a lot of shadowing within different departments.
I genuinely want to know all of this information so I can set a client up for success before they even apply and before they even get to our campus. I wanna know as much as I can. So I have been feverishly shadowing every department that will allow me to sit there and pick their brains. So that's, [00:16:00] that's how I'm trying to do this,
Leslie: which you guys have done a fantastic job.
It's wonderful to know that we have empowered and knowledgeable people on your team to be able to answer a lot of these questions, and then also know that you have the resources such as. Other g DMIs or os. And just to share my o and m perspective too, on the topic, obviously you guys have hit on most of the subjects, um, but it is so important and these are things that we to do talk about in our o and m program, talking about the best time to get a guide dog.
I will say I've heard lots of pros and cons. I've talked to people who have gotten a guide dog before going to that freshman year of college and they love it because of that. Really like the social aspect, right? It really does bring people in. People wanna know about your dog. You're very well known on campus.
Sometimes it makes it a little easier to get those services. Um, but then also on the other end of. It's great if you can go and right, learn what your life is gonna be like. Are you gonna be a person that's really going out and going to concerts and clubs and different things like that where it's maybe not appropriate to take a guide dog all the time, or are you [00:17:00] gonna have maybe a little bit more calmer and low key and like, like to hang out in the dorm or whatever it is, kind of learning, you know, your way in college before adding on this big responsibility.
But I will say we've heard success stories both ways, and we are here to support in whatever journey people choose to take. The whole idea here is just to really let people know of those considerations and really make sure that you're making the best choice for you.
Timothy: Yeah, trust me, having a guide dog, you really stick out and people are attracted to the dog and uh, it can bring more than what you can handle and attention.
So yeah, like you said, you need to really look at it and different. Prospects.
Alissa: Well, and something else that not a lot of people think about is that with a dog you might have to advocate for yourself a little bit more. So you know, it's might be the first guide dog on that college's campus. People may not know that they're allowed everywhere that you're allowed.
So just making sure that you have the confidence and knowledge, which of course you work on with. Leader dog team members and your GDMI, of course, [00:18:00] will, you know, go over all of your rights and we even give you a little card with a QR code that people can scan that takes you right to the a DA website, which has all of the information about, about your rights with a guide dog.
Um, but just being able and feeling confident enough to advocate for yourself and for your dog if need be.
Leslie: It's also interesting somebody who's getting a guide dog who's maybe never had a pet before. Mm-Hmm. And there's a lot that goes into it that you might not even think about right. On the front end.
And then also even if you've had a pet, but like it's been your parents' responsibility. Oh sure. Oh my gosh. Right. There's so much that goes into having your own animal or dog that you have to be responsible for.
Alissa: Absolutely. You know, you're. Studying for your history test, but you also have to get to the store and make sure that you get food for your dog.
You know? So it's just kind of balancing those, and again, some people are great at that and, and thrive on taking care of a dog. Um, but definitely things to consider. You need to make time to brush the dog. You need to make time to play with them because, you know, still a dog at heart wanna play. Um, also you need to make sure that you [00:19:00] can work them daily.
I mean, there's just, there's a lot of things to consider, but it can be a really positive addition to somebody who's in college. Just, again, making sure that you do that work on the front end is gonna make the whole team so much more successful.
Christina: Yeah, it's a lot of responsibility too, if you really think about it because, you know, going into co I couldn't imagine myself personally, nor could we, could we myself personally, going through the college, I, I mean, I was involved in so many things and taking care of a dog on top of it, I.
I don't think I could have done it at that point in my life. So yeah, definitely something to consider. Well, the responsibility of taking care of something else during that
Alissa: time,
Christina: other than yourself, Christina
Alissa: still taking care of herself right now. She say she had a hard enough time getting herself here this morning, let alone she care of a dog
Leslie: not living, breathing thing.
It is a lot of work. I am so curious though, too, thinking about [00:20:00] so patterning to a campus. Mm-Hmm. We always talk about, you know, get campus is the right, like you said, the sidewalks make no sense and none. When ONM and we talk about it, it's like they put a sidewalk down wherever there's a path, right? Yes.
People are always taking the shortcuts and so navigating that with a cane or with a guide dog can be incredibly. Challenging. And so can you just walk us through a little bit of how patterning works for those who aren't guide dog users?
Alissa: So for those that aren't guide dog users, um, and for those that are, this is a nice refresher.
Um, so for example, if I want the dog to find this certain bench that's, that's halfway between the library and my science class. So what I would do is I would do something called back chaining. So I would first take the dog up to the bench. So me as a handler, I need to know where that bench is. That again is where that o and m skills really come in, in handy here.
So. I need to find the bench myself as the handler. Tap on that bench. Tell the dog, good dog. Nice job. Even though we know they didn't do anything in that moment, we're giving 'em a cookie. Great job. We're basically making that. Bench a [00:21:00] magnet for that dog. So then we take a few steps back, walk back up to that bench, good job buddy, and give them that cookie.
Then you take 10 steps backwards and you just keep doing it over and over again until you've moved far enough away from the bench that that dog is really initiating that pole towards that bench. So, for example, if I was trying to go from, let's say, my dorm to science class, I would say, okay, well there's a bench here.
So that's, you know. Uh, halfway there, or a quarter of the way there. I'm gonna have the dog stop there. I'm gonna go a little bit further, and now actually there's a trash can. I'm gonna pick that as my next stop. So the dog is gonna stop me at that bench. I'm gonna say, good dog forward, and we're gonna continue on our path.
Then the dog's gonna check in at that trash can. Good dog. So I, as the handler. Know that I'm on the right path. Um, and of course we also understand that classes change. So maybe the next semester your class is changing. You don't take that route anymore. Well, next time you're walking by that bench, your dog might take you to it.
Not necessarily a bad thing, just a, thanks buddy. This isn't where we're heading today. Let's keep moving. So [00:22:00] just being able to kind of break down your travel into little segments is, is a good way that we would use patterning and we actually take our clients while they're here on campus to universities to practice that skill.
Yeah.
Leslie: And then typically too when, uh, um, somebody is getting a guide dog right before college, we usually do a delivery. Yes. So, and work on
Alissa: campus. We will do, uh, kind of like a flex with somebody who's going to college soon or, or maybe hasn't gone in yet. So they will come onto campus for about two weeks or so, and then they'll go to that campus environment with their instructor and actually work on breaking down those skills.
Which is so helpful. It's so helpful.
Leslie: It just sets everybody up for success. Mm-Hmm. So, Elle, when people are calling and you're getting these questions all the time, do you feel that most clients are kind of like taking a step back and really analyzing to think what maybe it isn't the right time? Or do you think they're like, thank you so much for telling me these things.
Now I can really have a plan going into this to make sure that I'm successful.
Shannelle: I think they take it as this is good fuel to uh, [00:23:00] continue to move forward and make a better decision for themselves and for a potential guide. And they are very grateful that we are giving the them these tips to move forward and be successful.
And I just wanted to make one more point about, um, a video that you wanna make sure that you are, um. Sending us a video of a route and routine in both your home area, whether that's at your parents' house, um, and on campus or even an internship. Um, those are things that the committee will want to review, um, about that.
So I just wanted to point that out.
Christina: Yeah, no, I
Leslie: think that's
Christina: a really
Leslie: good
Christina: point. Yeah, that's something people probably don't think about. They're like, oh, I'll do my route at home, but they don't think about, oh, maybe I'll travel to the campus before I'm even there to kind of. Sure. Or
Leslie: even
Christina: vice versa, right?
Leslie: Like making your routes on campus because it's like, oh, I'm gonna live there. But then you think about like Christmas break or holidays. Absolutely. There's spring break. Like you have to be able to have those routes and summer if you're gonna go back home for the summer or,
Alissa: well, and the more videos of the routes that you do, the better it's gonna be for the instructors to match you with a dog.
Leslie: [00:24:00] Mm-Hmm.
Alissa: I always tell people you can't give us too much information. 'cause every bit of information's helpful.
Christina: Well, and Timothy uh, question for you, 'cause I know you travel quite. Often with Glacier. So how, how is it like, 'cause that's kind of like going to a college campus as you're establishing a new route.
Like what are some tips and tricks that you would give to someone who is working on establishing that new route?
Timothy: Well, I mean, you have to, I guess you have to plan it out in your head a little bit. Mm-Hmm. And know where you need to go from point A, point B. And uh, like I say, if you're going to airport for the first time, there's really nothing you can do.
Uh, but, uh. I use my Victor Reader Trek a lot. So if I'm in unfamiliar territory, I use that quite often. It gives me, you know, like if we're getting ready, there's a street coming up. We can tell by listening. But we also, the Victor Reader Trek, there's a, tells you there's a street coming up so you can prepare for it, but you just gotta, I visualize everything in your head.
I believe that's my, that's the biggest thing I do.
Leslie: And the Victor Reader Trek, for anybody who doesn't know is an accessible GPS device created by Humanware. Um, and it is, it can be very helpful to kind of [00:25:00] just prep or let you know what's, uh, coming, anticipate the next street and move and things like that.
Do you Timothy also use some of like the, the backhanding and patterning when you're at like a new hotel when you're traveling and different things to, you know, have glacier light lead you right to the door, to the elevator and things like that?
Timothy: Yeah, well for Glacier, like say if I go to hotel room, when I first come to the hotel room, I tap the door and I say room.
That's all I gotta say. And from there on, she knows exactly where that room is. It's fa, it fascinates people when I show that to her. And, uh, I just gotta get to the right level. I. But, uh, that's the important thing. I can, she can take me to the right room, but we're on the wrong level. There is no good.
Alissa: It's honestly a very smart dog.
Timothy: Yeah. But she knows elevator, she knows escalators. If I say elevator, she finds out everything that I need. So she's got it in her head exactly what I'm looking for. And so you gotta know where the front door is. She. She's always knowing where the front door is. Everywhere I go, she knows where the front door is and if there's something I need to get outta there fast, I tell her, find the front [00:26:00] door, we're out of there.
It, it's amazing. And, uh, she's a smart dog. I put my hands and my life and my dog every day. Yeah. And
Christina: you guys have done a lot of work together, so that's a testament to you too, Timothy.
Timothy: Well, she's, she does most of the work. I just, hang on. I couldn't get along in my life without Glacier. It's, it's amazing what these dogs mean to me and what she means to me and other clients out there.
These dogs just open up a new world that would not be there if we, not for the dog or the o and m training.
Leslie: I love that. You always throw that in for me, Timothy,
Timothy: I gotta put that plug in. Don't forget.
Leslie: I think that's fantastic. Well, I wanna thank you both and Timothy and Johnny, everybody, for being here today to, uh, one set us straight on what actually happened. Yeah. So we know who the real winner is and just confirm. I guess we knew, but let's confirm. And then thank you also to Chanel and Alyssa for joining us and really talking in depth about this [00:27:00] topic that is, seems to be like.
Reoccurring. So thank you for being here. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. And thank you so much to our listeners for listening to the Taking the Lead podcast. I'm Leslie Hoskins with host Timothy Kyo and Christina Hepner. We hope you enjoyed hearing from Chale and Alyssa, please and Johnny. So sorry.
Please join us next time as we continue to dive into the world of blindness. Yes, and you all know that I actually won, but
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