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The "No BS" version of how startups are really built, taught by actual startup Founders who have lived through all of it. Hosts Wil Schroter and Ryan Rutan talk candidly about the intense struggles Founders face both personally and professionally as they try to turn their idea into something that will change the world.
Welcome back to another episode
of the Startup Therapy podcast.
This is Ryan Rutan, joined
as always by my friend,
the founder and CEO of
Startups.com, Will Schroeder.
Will, two years ago, if
you wanted to start a
tech company, you needed
at least three people.
You needed the product person,
a developer, a marketer.
Today, you might not
need any of them.
Yeah.
In a couple of years, you
might not even be allowed
to hire them, right?
Yeah.
And that honestly freaks
me out a little bit.
The very real possibility that
the future of startups is one
person and a stack of AI is
not as a backup plan, right?
Or, or a novel thing,
but, but as the default.
And I'm gonna be honest with
you, I love working with a team.
Yeah.
Some of the best moments of my
career, and I know of yours,
have been being locked in a room
with smart people arguing about
something really dumb until
it became something brilliant.
So when I tell you I think
the era of hiring people
might be ending, I'm not
trying to sell you on it, I'm
processing it out loud with
you here in the room, which is
I guess what this episode is.
It's terrifying.
And here's, here's what's
interesting about our
purview, right, Ryan?
Like, we tend to forget- Yeah
... 'cause we do this stuff all day.
We see all the startups long
before they become startups.
Like, even- Right ... like a
venture firm doing Series A
deals, Series B deals, they see
startups, like, three years in.
You know, depending when,
when they get to that point-
Yeah ... where they're
raising that kind of money.
Now, I'm not saying that
they're not ahead of the curve.
They are, and
they're paid to be.
But we get to see
startups when it's still
an idea in their head.
Like, they, they haven't
even gotten to the point
where the, the product
is necessarily- Right
you know, raising or et cetera.
So we have an interesting
purview of what I would say
is the zeitgeist of startups
and, and founders as a whole.
And what we're seeing right now
are founders, the conversation
going from, "Hey, I've got
this great app idea. I gotta
find a developer, I gotta
find a marketer" to- Yeah
"I don't need to
find anybody." Right.
"I already built
it, right?" Yeah.
"This weekend." Like, "I don't
need those people." Now, we did
an- another episode, uh, not too
long ago, Ryan, where we talked
about I don't need the capital.
Right.
And we talked about, you
know, where VCs and their
role is, and said, "Who cares
about those guys," right?
Well,
very, very linked to
today's conversation, right?
Right.
That's what I mean.
This is the precursor to that.
Yeah.
Y- you know, what happens when
we're entering a world, and we
are whether we like it or not-
Yes ... where hiring people or
building a team is an option,
and, and, and, uh, this is...
I'm gonna bury the lead on this
one, maybe a downgrade, right?
Like, like- Yeah ... that's
actually possible.
Fucking terrifying, right?
I, again- Right ... you
said the same thing.
You and I are like, "Whoa,
dude."
This is happening really fast
Yeah.
I, I think that's the, the
interesting thing is that,
like, this, this isn't
just an ideology, right?
This isn't just can we do this?
This is economics
meeting capability.
That's a great way to put it.
I've never heard
it put that way.
That's real- really
well structured.
The teams didn't
get worse, right?
Yeah.
The alternative just
got dramatically better.
Uh, but the other thing
I think is gonna be super
interesting, and you, you just
kinda hinted at it, which is,
like, the way you and I are
thinking about this versus,
you know, somebody who's just
starting out and building now.
There's a generational
split coming, man.
Yeah.
We're, we're gonna have founders
who came up with teams versus
founders who never had one
in the first place, right?
You know, I actually- The
second group's not even
gonna feel that loss.
It's, think about it in, in
regards of, like, or relation
to work from home, right?
I was just gonna say the
same exact shit, yep.
You and I had to go
through- Absolutely ... a
process to get there.
Right.
But there were a lot of people
whose first job was an interview
via Zoom, and then you-
Yep ... start the next day in
your new office, Zoom, right?
That's it.
They don't know the difference.
There's folks
getting damn near 30.
I was gonna, sorry, I
was gonna build on that.
There, there are folks damn near
30 that have never stepped foot
in an office and never will,
in most cases.
Yeah, exactly.
It's, it's absolutely wild.
And, and I think anybody right
now who's thinking, like, you
know, "AI will never replace
people," I think they're either
lack the internet or they're,
they're selling us something or
they haven't shipped a product
in, like, at least, what?
12 to 18 months.
With this weird boat.
Now, I want the audience to
understand this because you
get, kinda like when crypto
was becoming a thing, you
get these zealots that talk
about- Yep ... like, what the
future's gonna be and, and,
and they're- Yeah, yeah ... so
sold on it, et cetera.
I wouldn't call us critics
because w- we definitely
embrace the technology.
I love- 100% ... the technology.
But I'm equally terrified about
it because every time- Oh,
yeah ... I, I ship something,
I'm like, "What does that mean?"
Like, you know, what does that
mean for the entire ecosystem
that was usually a part of that,
that isn't?
It's the rollercoaster
feel, right?
It's the r- m- meaning,
like, in the, in the
adrenaline sense, right?
Like, every time I'm building
something and it just happens
to go exactly as I want to,
like, there's this level
of, like, real excitement.
Yeah.
And then also as you, as you,
as you o- go over the top
of that hill, like, there
is a thrill, but there's
also a feeling that, like,
literally and figuratively, the
bottom's dropping out, right?
Exactly.
And you just don't know, like,
where does this actually stop?
And, and I gotta say, I don't
just look at it as, hey,
you know, this is g- this
is bad for people who are in
the startup ecosystem that,
you know, would be employed
by a startup, et cetera.
Yep.
Selfishly, I'm looking at
myself going, "Damn, dude,
the value that I introduce
to the world on a-" Yeah
daily basis is getting
both accelerated, because
what I can do is geometric-
Yes ... and eroded- It's
so bizarre, isn't it?
... because what I used to do
doesn't matter anymore.
Like- Yeah ... I used to
get paid- Yeah ... so to
speak, I'm, I'm kind of u-
a bit of a euphemism here,
but, like, I used to get
paid to tell people how to
build a pitch deck, right?
Yep.
Well, now there's 100
ways to find out how
to build a pitch deck.
I'm not gonna get paid for that-
Well, yeah ... much longer.
Now you can tell Claude how to
build a pitch deck, and you can
give that to a, a thousand other
people, and Claude can tell them
how to build their pitch deck.
In every language,
right?
Yep.
At every stage,
in every currency.
Yeah.
Like, I mean, like, that's- Yep
... the geometric part, right?
Can we also pick the colors?
No, you cannot.
That absolutely has
to be done by a human.
No one could- Right ... possibly
automate font color selection.
Yeah.
Let's start from that.
Let's say that back in the
day of, of, of yore, which
is, like, two years ago,
right?
Let's acknowledge the absurdity
of that for a second, right?
2023 just became... Or was
that, no, 2024 just became
the days of yore, right?
It's absolutely mind-boggling
how fast this is moving.
But it really
is.
But I mean, but it really is.
Yeah.
So, so let's timestamp
that for a minute, just
so the audience- Sure
can say, "Okay, this is how
long ago we're talking about."
If you and I wanted to build
a startup, we would, just like
you said, I mean, I'm using
tech as an example, but it, it
varies per industry, uh, and we
wanted to build a mobile app.
Uh, we find developer and
we find marketer, right?
And so you've got product
person, developer, marketer,
just as you mentioned.
And- Yep ... you know,
there's, there's different
combinations, but that was
typically the triumvirate
that everybody wound up with.
Like, back in the day when they
were doing startup weekends,
it was always, like, the
hacker, the hustler, and what
do they call the designer?
I don't remember.
Anyways, I'm sure it
started with an H.
Point is, that was it.
Created a construct that
everybody kind of agreed
with, things like co-founders.
"Hey, Ryan, you're an incredible
developer. I'm a product
guy. I'm gonna give you half
the, the company." Yeah.
For what?
To build something
I can't build.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
Why in the hell-
Would I do that today?
So stick on that, right?
Because, like, we, we look back
at that w- with some longing,
and it's like, that three-person
team wasn't a strategy, right?
It was a limitation.
And that's what's
killing me, right.
Nobody actually wanted to give
up 25% equity just so they
could have a chance at getting
that product to market, right?
Right, right.
They just, they had to.
Right.
The find a technical co-founder
was a hell of a plot line-
Yep ... for 25 years.
A very long time.
But it just ended.
It is an entry token.
Quietly.
Right.
And I
think most people
haven't even noticed yet.
The developers have.
Yeah.
That's for sure.
So just two years ago, you
needed these elements as,
again, your entry token to be
able to get into this game.
If you didn't have developer,
you didn't have product.
If you didn't have product,
you have nothing, right?
Yeah.
I would argue that soon
thereafter you needed
marketer to get you acquiring
customers, et cetera.
And depending on who the person
was, they had a certain set
of skills that allowed them
to acquire through social
or through whatever means,
you know, they were good at.
But your ability to both
build and manage and have the
domain knowledge across all of
those fields simultaneously-
Yeah ... w- was, by definition,
usually gonna be pretty weak.
Yeah.
You and I are in a, a, an
unusual position in that we
spent our last 30 years in our
career doing tech, product, and
marketing all at the same time.
Yep.
Like, we actually grew up in
that triumvirate, if you will.
That, yeah, exactly.
Um, and so it's unusual
for us to have all those
skillsets, although I think,
you know, you would agree, as
time went on and technology
became, you know, much
deeper as far as a knowledge
base, we couldn't keep up.
You know, we had to- No
kind of pick our lane.
I still remember, like, the
last line of code I actually
tried to ship and gave up
in frustration and handed
off to one of my devs.
Like- Yeah ... I
remember that moment.
Yeah.
I, I stopped at JavaScript.
Yep.
That was around the time.
Yeah, it was.
I think it was
ColdFusion, actually.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, that's a great product.
So anyway, we're in the
spot now where those people
were going to get recruited.
They were going to get brought
into, uh, startup teams.
They were going to-
Yeah ... have a meaningful,
uh, seat at the table.
They were going to... You
know, they were, "Hey,
if I don't agree with it,
I'm not gonna build it.
So if I don't agree- Yep ... we
don't have this disagreement,
things won't move forward."
Now all of a sudden, like- Yeah
... Claude doesn't argue about shit.
No.
Like, just does what I say.
So stick on that
for a second, Will.
Yeah.
So, so here's, here's, uh,
just to keep some balance
this entire conversation,
I want to bring up- Yeah
a, a counterpoint here, which
is that, like, in some weird
way we could argue that equity
dilution was a bit of a forcing
function for quality, right?
If you had to give up real
ownership to get a co-founder
to build something- Yeah ... you
had to actually convince him
the idea was good, and you
had to decide whether you
wanted to give up that much
equity to do that, right?
AI doesn't give a shit if
your idea is good or not.
It's gonna build anyways.
Yeah, yeah.
Which, let's be honest, isn't
necessarily an entirely a win.
It, mostly a win.
But- But m- lacking that
pushback and lacking
that kind of additional
friction and filter, it
can, can come at a cost.
There's this great quote,
I think it's from Jay and
Silent Bob Strikes Back
or something like that.
Okay.
And they're explaining the,
what the internet is, right?
Oh, yes.
And they're saying, "The
internet gave everybody in the
world an opportunity to use
their voice, and as it turns
out, they chose to use it." Yes.
Like, this is AI.
This is them saying, "We've
given everybody the ability to
build something, but we haven't
decided whether it's any good."
Self-publishing
did the same thing.
Yes.
Being able to publish your
own stuff on the equivalent
of a- Yeah ... Spotify
did the same thing.
You didn't have to be
good because you had
the tools either way.
Right.
Whereas before, there was a
filter function that society
kind of applied to you.
Yeah.
Now arguably, you could
say that there was an
additional filter back then
that wasn't necessarily
the best thing, which was
the translation between the
person with the idea- Yeah
and the person with
the technical skills
to do it, right?
So we've kinda traded
one potential quality
barrier for another.
All of a sudden we get into
this position where we don't
have to bring those people in.
I think that's important.
I think that's important-
Yeah ... because-
Yeah
...
have to and optional are b-
are gonna be what this entire
conversation turns on, right?
Yeah.
The startup ecosystem was
largely based on need.
Nobody hired 500 people because
they needed more friends.
Maybe somebody did.
Right.
Right?
You've hired 500 people
and created all that
liability 'cause you
needed all of those people.
You needed it.
Right?
Yeah.
You needed that function.
I was talking to a founder the
other night, and we were talking
about, you know, staffing plans.
And he was saying, "Hey, you
know, I'm, I'm looking to staff
up to maybe a couple hundred
people." And I said, "Why?" And
he said, "Well, I need people
for, you know, it's on the
ground kind of stuff." Are you
starting a sports league, sir?
No, he, he had a very cogent
reason for it, but it wasn't-
Yeah ... what it used to be.
It wasn't,
"
I need- Isn't it funny- ... 200
developers to build anything"
... that that sounds exotic now?
Yeah.
Right?
Right, exactly.
Oh, wow, how avant-garde.
You're going to hire humans?
Humans.
Right?
How retro.
How quickly we got there.
But okay, so but let
me build on that.
So but there's this new filter
that didn't apply before- Yeah
which is, has gone, is about
to go the other direction,
where it used to be, "Hey, I've
got humans. Maybe AI might be
better." Now it's, "I've got
AI. Will a human be better?"
Is- Right?
Yeah.
Is there a version of
having a human that's, that,
that's better than this?
Yeah.
And ah, dude,
this gets dangerous.
This is a slippery slope.
It, it's tough, man.
I mean, let's, let's throw
a couple things out there.
Yeah.
The pricing, you can't
argue with that part.
Right.
You just can't.
Right.
$200 a month for output
that used to cost us
200K a year in salary.
The, the math doesn't care about
your feelings at all, right?
Yeah.
Like, the math is the math, and
the math is clearly in favor
of the AI side of the equation.
Yeah, and, and so we look
at, okay, how many things
are gonna go away from a
have to have human, okay?
Yeah.
Let's start from where two
years got us, so 2024 to 2026
when we're recording this.
In two years, I can build an
MVP of just about anything.
Yep.
Right?
I'm not saying it'll scale.
I know there's a whole
argument as like w- Take
a breath, it will, right?
Like- Yep ... but even
that, which, Ryan, how many
startups were raising money
or looking for co-founder
or whatever for just-
Just to try to stand
up a basic website.
Yes, yes.
Kills me to know, like, this
isn't a fair comparison,
but it's like when you see
the medication come out
when it's too late to have
saved some people, right?
It's like- That's an
interesting... Yeah ... how
many startups withered on
the vine that wouldn't have
simply because they couldn't
get access to the basic
necessities of just being able
to kinda show what this thing
might do- Right ... in a way
that could have allowed it to
get some traction that would
now be completely possible.
That's interesting, man.
I would- There's an entire
project around just going
back to the old startup
graveyards and being like,
"What could we refire with
some AI?" Everything, right?
And, and look- Yeah.
And this isn't to say that
just applying AI makes things
good or feasible or whatever.
No.
It's the fact that
it's even an option.
Now, now- Yes ... I
wanna take this back.
What we're talking about isn't
necessarily, "Hey, let's take
a 200-person organization
and make it a one-person
organization." Correct.
That happens.
But what we're talking about
right now is the one-person
organization that doesn't need
to grow past- Correct ... a
one-person organization, not
because they chose not to, but
because they don't have to.
Well- And
that's what's crazy to me
... take that a step even further.
Yeah.
It's the one-person organization
that wasn't ever going to
grow past that person, that
wasn't ever going to release
the website, that wasn't ever
gonna get enough traction to
be able to attract dollar one
of investment or- Yep ... team
member number two, right?
Right, right.
There were so many of those out
there because they were stuck
too far behind the idea curve.
Now they don't have to be.
Here's where I was saying
earlier that, like, you
know, as a founder, I'm
looking both directions.
I'm looking at the world
in front of me and the
world behind me, right?
Yeah.
And when I look at the world
behind me, like basically, like,
like where is the ground falling
from below my feet, it's huh.
Like a couple years ago, if
Ryan and I spent years and years
and years building a bespoke
platform with a phenomenal
amount of knowledge around it
called startups.com- ... that
was a moat that we had created
that people couldn't cross.
Yep.
Like, you know, our competitors
couldn't do the same thing,
and so we did it well.
Yeah.
And now I'm like, well,
shit, now, like, literally
anybody could do that.
Now- Who's that
sitting at my desk?
Yeah.
Oh, hi, Claude.
Yeah.
Exactly, right?
Now, again, it's not
quite that simple.
I, I think when people say-
Yeah ... "Oh, like AI is
gonna rebuild salesforce.com,"
it'll rebuild some stuff.
Salesforce.com- Right
... will probably be okay.
But again, I'm looking at
it from the, shit, because
everybody can do stuff or get
access to what I charged for
five seconds ago, they will.
And how do I stay two
steps ahead of them?
Now, I look at this and I say,
if we're talking about the
future of a one-person startup,
what is clearly gonna get taken
off the table, being stuff that
you're gonna pay money for?
Some things that come to mind,
Ryan, uh, customer support.
Yeah.
I think customer support's
deader than dead.
Right?
Don't get me wrong, I think
it's valuable to talk to
a human upon escalation.
Yeah.
But I think an AI- But one
... that can do 90% of the job,
it can respond immediately,
it can take you to where you
need to be, it can do- Yeah
uh, low-level resolution,
et cetera, there's n-
like, a, a human is vastly
inferior on that one.
Yeah.
Talking to a human was better
than not talking to a human
when there was no other option
than talking to a human.
Exactly.
Right?
It, sitting in a, in, in a
queue to wait to talk to me
on the phone sucks, right?
We don't wanna talk to anybody.
We don't wanna fix the problem.
We never wanted to have the
problem in the first place, so
the faster you remove whatever
my issue is, whatever way that
you need to do that, is the
best outcome for me as the user.
Y- My 45-minute calls to Dell
customer support- Oh my God
never ended in- You remember
the days ... man, I hope
this doesn't go away.
Oh.
Right?
My 45- Yeah ... minute wait
on the IRS queue- Yeah ... to
be able to get some stupid
piece of information
that I needed, right?
Yep.
I was never like, "Man, I hope
they don't speed this up." Yeah.
Boy, I
hope
Bob answers the call again.
Yeah.
It's really nice talking to him.
The state of the union is so
incredibly bad that, like, a-
anything is an improvement.
But the reason I'm bringing
this one up is because those
were absolute givens that what
we were gonna staff for, right?
Yeah.
We have more customers, we
have more support, one for one.
Yep.
The other great thing about
that, about that mechanism,
was that it was an on-ramp for
an awful lot of people, right?
Yeah.
There was an awful lot of
people that maybe didn't...
They weren't a developer,
they weren't a designer or
whatever, but they could show
up at a startup, get work right
away- Yeah ... just because
they were smart enough and
they were cool enough, right?
You know?
Yep.
They, they could
answer questions.
They could, yep.
Ton of value to that, by
the way.
They could check the boxes.
There is something to that,
too, which is, like, when we
look back at, like, startup
hiring as a whole, it is
very, very interesting, right?
In the sense that there were
definitely people that got
shots that they otherwise
wouldn't have gotten, and
that grew well outside that.
But there's also, like,
the, the kind of the dirtier
secret side of it, which is
that a lot of early-stage
employees aren't great.
Yeah.
Right?
That's not why they got hired.
For the long game.
They got hired because
they were available.
AI's not out there just
replacing A players
left and right, right?
It's, it's replacing-
That's actually my
point.
Yeah.
I, I'm saying for an awful
lot of people that, that were
C+ players- Yep ... there
was always a home for them-
Yep ... because there was
always work that the A+
players didn't wanna do.
The minor
minor
leagues.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Pretty much.
And, and- Yeah ... I look
at that, and again, I wanna
point out, I look at that and
going, "Damn, that's a problem
for an awful lot of people."
You know, I, I, I have- Yeah
... friends that are in that space,
you know, that, that are kind
of like at risk at that level,
and I'm like, "I have no
idea what they're gonna do."
And again, that concerns me.
This is, again, this is-
Yeah ... this is a very
nuanced discussion because
on the one hand we're saying,
"Holy shit, this is gonna
be incredible, like, we're
gonna enable so many people."
I'm like, and this is the
nature of AI, at the expense
of an awful lot of people.
I think I'm still, and maybe
I'm wearing super thick
rose-colored glasses right
now, but I think I'm trying to
take the view that we said the
same thing when the internet
happened, and e-commerce
happened, and, and, and.
That, a- and yes, it did.
There was, there was
plenty of disruption.
It wasn't at the scale that
anybody expected it to be.
It didn't create, you
know, mass pandemonium.
There w- definitely
was some upset.
I'm not saying people
didn't get hurt, people did.
But then we recovered, and
we grew well beyond where
we were at that point.
I'm still hopeful that
this does the same thing.
Now, do I think there's a
higher likelihood and a better
chance, more opportunity for
there to be harm and damage
done just in terms of, like,
humans not having jobs?
Yes, because that's literally
what this is aimed at doing.
No doubt.
But o- on the other hand,
like most things, it's
gonna create new problems.
Who solves problems?
People solve problems, startups
solve problems, and so it's
gonna create this entire new
ecosystem that we're gonna
have to go figure out, right?
If no one has income,
what do we do?
Well, we gotta
solve that, right?
Otherwise, the people who
replace all the jobs with
AI have no economy to
sell to anyways, right?
So it, it can only go so
far before it breaks itself.
You know, something
that's
really
funny about everything
we talk about here is
that none of it is new.
Everything you're dealing
with right now has been done a
thousand times before you, which
means the answer already exists.
You may just not know
it, but that's okay.
That's kind of what
we're here to do.
We talk about this stuff on
the show, but we actually
solve these problems all day
long at groups.startups.com.
So if any of this sounds
familiar, stop guessing
about what to do.
Let us just give you the answers
to the test and be done with it.
Yeah, 100%.
Uh, i- it'll create as much
demand as it will supply.
I do believe that.
But, but damn, it's,
it's gnarly right now.
But going back to our point
of this solo founder forever.
Yeah.
The reason we're talking
about this stuff, about, you
know, how it's get, about to
get geometrically worse or
better depending on how you
look at it, is this is the
first time in history that
not hiring for any of these
roles, support, developer,
whatever, was even an option.
Yeah.
And what I'm saying is the
rate that the technology is
improving, it gets to the
point where, like, I can't
fathom in a year or two
why you would hire a small
business accountant, right?
Yeah.
Given the fact that, uh,
accounting, and I've been
a, a CFO for 25 years, so
I understand a little about
it, but I'm by no means
teaching courses on it.
But accounting is really comes
down to I have raw transactions,
they're sitting in, in my
bank account or credit card
statements or whatever, invoice
system, and I have some corpus
of knowledge that understands-
Mm-hmm ... how to process
raw transactions, right?
Yeah.
And turn them into pro
forma income statements
or tax statements or
anything like that.
The corpus of knowledge
is well documented, right?
Yes.
There's, there's nothing
new there, right?
Like, how numbers...
It's literally a
named standard, right?
Kind
of figured that one out.
And how to process yours
isn't that complex.
It's complex to you
'cause you don't know it.
I, I went through this process.
My point is that's a
giant, like, bucket that
everyone's subscribed to.
Yep.
Like, even if you didn't hire
your own developer, you had
somebody giving you counsel on
accounting 'cause, 'cause it's
something- Yeah ... you didn't
know and you needed help with.
Yep ... or payroll, or
legal, or like, there was a
lot of places where it was
a given that you were gonna
talk to a human, employ that
person on a contract- Yeah
or one-off basis, and that's
where your money was gonna go.
And now I'm like, uh-
Yeah.
There were so many of
these industries that were
literally predicated on
knowledge that was gatekept.
Not that it was
unachievable knowledge.
It wasn't that it was
unachievable knowledge.
Yeah.
It just wasn't worth quite
enough to go and learn it rather
than just pay to have it done.
Yep.
Well, that just got
flipped on its head.
It's crazy.
And so we could probably
agree, if it's 2026 now,
that... And now I'm going
way into the future,
like four years from now.
That by 2030- Whoa ... nearly
every single thing that you
would've paid somebody to
do right now mechanically,
there will be- Yeah ... an
AI equivalent that is,
is as good, and, and,
and I'm gonna use as...
We'll come back to
as good in a second.
But in many cases, better.
I'll go to the
customer support thing.
Yeah.
This isn't a quality thing.
This AI customer support is
available 24/7, seven days a
week, and can process 1,000
people simultaneously, right?
Yeah.
There's no human equivalent
that could possibly do that.
Right.
It knows every single
thing that has ever been
said to your company.
It knows every single outcome.
Period.
It knows every single product.
It can run decisioning
rules perfectly every single
time, like no call center
on the planet could do.
And there will be no better
human version of that, right?
It sucks.
Uh, again, this isn't me saying-
Yeah ... yay.
I'm saying
shit.
But it's, it's kind
of unavoidable.
And the thing is, by the
time somebody uses it as a
competitive advantage, everybody
else has to start to use it.
It becomes a hygiene factor-
100% ... really, really
quickly, so you don't
really have the choice.
And so like, even if
you're like, "Nope, we're
gonna stick with humans.
We're gonna stick with humans
for a while." J- I was just
picturing somebody pitching
an investor in, in this, in
your future of 2030 and saying
like, "And we're aiming for
12 employees." They're gonna
look at you like you just
said, "And we're gonna try
to get 12 horses," right?
Like what- Right.
... the fuck are you talking about?
So we get into this new world
where we look at hiring a person
in the not too distant future,
and even a little bit now- Yeah
... as a can versus I should.
Uh-huh.
I could hire this person.
Let's say, like money
wasn't the issue, and
it's always the issue, but
let's pretend it wasn't.
Will they add more than
I could get with a tool
that does the same thing?
Now, obviously it depends
on- Yeah ... on what
the role is, right?
But it brings us to the next
point of this discussion,
which would be where is
human value intrinsic?
You know- Yeah ... what are
the things that startups
will reengage with humans?
I sound so... I feel like E-
Elon Musk talking about, "We're
engaging with humans," right?
Um, will reengage with humans.
I'm interfacing
with flesh again.
Here's what I would
say at a high level.
There are certain things
that are fundamentally
human that we as humans
are particularly good at.
Yeah.
Communication, leadership,
creativity, innovation,
et cetera, right?
These are things that are,
uh, fundamentally and,
and authentically human.
And I think when you get more
people in the room that can kind
of use the tool- But use those
capabilities with the tool.
Yeah.
You wanna have the humans, you
know, with those tools versus l-
you know, letting AI run amok.
Uh, where do you see it?
I think that there's
all those little micro
interactions, right?
The, the micro decisions, the
discussions, the arguments.
I'm a different person with
other people in the room, right?
It brings out skillsets
and capabilities that I
don't have when I'm just
sitting around by myself.
There's a whole lot of
things that don't manifest.
But I think that, like, at,
just even at the, the most
basic level, a solo founder
plus an AI doesn't get any of
that other voice introduced.
It... There's no
micro decisions.
There's no pushback.
You get the decision maker
and a yes machine, right?
Yeah.
Uh, uh, which, look, I'm, I'm
sure at some point they will,
they will help to fix that
within AI, and I think some
people are worried that, you
know, AI won't be as, as clever
as a human, or won't be as
attentive as a human, or won't
be as, as aware as a human.
That's not the risk
that I see, right?
Yeah.
I, I don't think that the
risk is that AI is wrong.
I think the risk is
actually that AI is just
super agreeable, right?
A team disagrees with you,
and that's actually the
feature of the team, right?
Yeah, right.
That's, a big part of it
is having that pushback
to kinda metal test the,
the, the stuff that you're
thinking through, right?
Let me build on that, Ryan.
Yeah.
So pushback and disagree would
be one of them, but the other
part of it is just refine.
So it's not like, "Hey, I don't
agree with what you're saying."
"Hey, that's a really cool idea.
What if we also did this,
this, and this?" I'm using
disagree in that- Right?
No, I know.
I know ... in that
same way, right?
Which is like more so just
like, yeah, the refinement,
the inputs that w- don't
come from an AI, right?
Whenever we go down this path,
whenever we talk about, like,
you know, w- where that human
intuition and everything is,
is more valuable, there is a
part of me in the back of my
mind that's being like, "Nah,
that's an algorithm," right?
Like, I'm like- Yeah.
And, and again, I, again, I
turn into, like, Elon Musk
all of a sudden, right?
But, like- ... I look at
that and I think to myself,
"I get it. I understand that
I can run an algorithm that
replicates what Will might
say, but it just still isn't
Will." And again, I know this
is the, the, the fundamental
question of humanity in, in AI.
Yeah.
But when it comes to building
a startup, I get the sense that
the solo f- founder will feel
like they're missing something.
There's just, one, it's lonely
as hell to do this, right?
Yeah.
But I also think, like,
here, actually, you know,
never really thought
about this until just now.
All day long, I have exactly
two screens on my monitor.
On the left I have Claude.
Yeah.
On the right I
have Slack, right?
Yeah.
computer, human.
And they're both prompts, right?
They're both literally
text boxes that I type
into to get answers.
I'm not, you know, trying to
dumb our conversations between
us, uh- Yep ... down, but,
like, just the form factor-
They're both text inputs
looks awfully identical.
Yep Right?
Your, your, your, your
command line in both case.
Yeah.
Exactly.
But l- let me stick with that,
'cause again, I, I... until
I just said it, it didn't
really occur to me, like, how
parallel those universes are.
When I talk to Claude, and I'm
building software, and I'm doing
all that's good stuff, right?
I know Claude is gonna come back
to me with domain knowledge,
but not really an opinion.
Now, it may come back with a
recommendation- Yeah ... right?
Like, "Hey- Right ... the
structure should be tailwind
versus something else."
Okay, sure, whatever, right?
You probably know
better than I do.
But it's not gonna come
back and saying, "This would
look way cooler," right?
Yeah.
Now, it could.
It'd be making that up.
It'd be, you know, whatever.
But when I talk to you or I
talk to our creative director,
I talk to our CTO, whatever,
and they have that response,
like, "Oh, damn, that would be
really sweet," I know it's true.
Yeah.
Does that make sense?
It does.
Uh, like, even, uh, think
about little pieces of feedback
like, I'm gonna go to the
negative side of feedback,
where it was like, "Yeah,
there's something a little off.
I'm not exactly sure
what it is," right?
That's exactly the kind
of thing, where it's like
there's an intuition there.
There's a feeling that AI's
never gonna be able to catch.
I can go back to moments in
time where, like, those little
feelings were like, "Ah,
something feels off," or, "Hmm,
you know, I don't like that and
I don't, can't really, you know,
tell you why now, but I'm gonna
keep thinking about it and we'll
eventually come up with it."
Those, those moments
are really important.
Let's build on that, because
I, again, I think that's the
core of what we're saying.
Let's back up and say if
you were a purist on the AI
side, you would say- Yeah
... humans are an algorithm.
Humans are fundamentally a
computer that, that, uh, are
pre-programmed with memories
and everything else like that.
Yep.
A- and they're
running the algorithm.
Which is true, and it's
called personality.
Yeah.
Right?
If it can be computed, it
will be computed, and it
will be replicated, right?
That there is cyber
Will, there's cyber Ryan,
and that will exist.
And I- Right ... 100%
believe that, right?
I, I actually do believe that.
However, without going, like,
too Terminator on this, I do
think there, there's a human
side that, number one, and
this is important, that we are
all going to gravitate toward
in the same way we're feeling
this right now with work from
home, uh, having displaced-
Yep ... the interactions
you were having at work.
I don't ever- Yeah
wanna go into the office again,
but I really miss my friends.
You
know what's funny?
Just for two seconds.
Yeah.
I just read something
today that said- is the
work from home era over?
Yeah.
And I was thinking, do they
just mean is work over?
Because who the hell is
going back to an office if
they're letting everyone go?
Like, what office are you going
back to or with, with which job?
I was like, did I accidentally
hit somebody's archive
from eight years ago?
Like, what is this?
I just couldn't believe that
was somebody's question today.
Like, that, yes, uh, sure, fine.
And I'm sure there's places
where it does, but I think
it touches on a core point.
I think as we strip away
our humanity, we feel empty.
I've yet to hear anybody
say- Yeah ... Tinder is so
much better because I don't
have to talk to people.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, like you have to talk
through messages or whatever.
Yeah.
Everyone always says the same
thing, whether it's Tinder
or Zoom or, like, whatever
technology abstract- social
media that abstracts us- Yeah
from humans.
It always starts with the same
premise, which is you're gonna
have so much more access to
a potential mate or to social
media- Yeah ... you know, to
news, whatever, and it always
ends the same, which is you're-
Yeah ... lonely and depressed.
More isolation.
Yeah, yeah.
Right.
A- a- and I think- Yeah
... that's the human condition.
I think that, you know,
if we look at a generation
coming up to the workforce
now that are 20 to 30, and
there's this general malaise.
Now, it's been exacerbated
because they've taken the
humanity out of every aspect of
their lives- Yeah ... you know,
through social
media and everything else like
that.
So fast-forward 10 years.
Does it become a thing whereas
like, "Who's that behind
you on the, in the camera?"
He's like, "Oh, that's Bob."
"Oh, what's Bob do there?"
"He's our person." Yeah.
He's like a dog.
We just have him around 'cause
he makes us feel better, right?
Yeah.
I notice when he's around
my heart rate goes down.
You know, it's like all the
things that a pet does for you.
Where like at some point, like
how many years out is hiring
an employee- My emotional
support human ... yeah, my
emotional support human.
But when does it become
a status symbol, right?
Like buying a mechanical watch,
uh, an expensive mechanical
watch when you know your
phone can tell time better.
When does an employee become
the status symbol thing?
They're like, "Yeah, we hired a,
we hired a, a, a, a- I think, so
this is, this a little
off track, but I
think it, uh, ties in.
I genuinely believe that over
the next few years, and you're
already starting to see it,
organic, meaning human, will
be- Yeah ... a luxury item.
And I think in the same way
that you have a concierge
at a hotel that, like, you
know, like, makes you feel
welcome, I think- Yeah
people will reintroduce
and repromote.
We're doing it now by the
way- 100% ... at startups.com.
Stay at Hilton, now featuring
human-answered telephones.
No, I'm telling you, man.
They're like, "Hello." I
think we're gonna see it.
I think you're gonna see a
massive swing at an emotional
level of people going back to,
"This is all bullshit, man."
Like, I can say this now.
I will spend, not today, but on
a given day, 14 hours straight
on some days- Yep ... in
front of my monitor, and thank
God I have a wife and kids
that are in my house, right?
That will, like, like, make me
have human interaction, because
if they were not here, I would
go days without seeing- Yeah
a human, right?
Human.
Yeah.
Like, in a couple hours,
uh, I'm gonna go see
a bunch of my friends.
We've got a founder dinner.
You, you've been to the,
uh, this one before.
Nice.
And they're great folks.
Actually, it's a bunch of folks
that listen to this show, so
guys, I'll see you in a minute.
I have to go to that, and I mean
that in the right way because-
Like, that is a scheduled
time where I see humans.
How fucking sad is that, right?
Yeah.
I mean, like, if you look at-
Yeah ... like the trajectory,
that used to be my every day,
and now it's a scheduled event.
I'm telling you, man, this
thing's gonna rubber band.
It kinda sorta has to, right?
At some point we do have
to go back- Yeah ... to
the other direction.
I mean, just think about
how often we see this, Will.
Just our little microcosm.
Think how often we see this,
which is just founders coming
to us wanting a co-founder, and
when we really dig into why-
Yep ... it wasn't a technology
need, it wasn't funding, it
wasn't... It w- they were just
lonely and scared of being
alone while building this thing.
Oh, yeah.
They just wanted
another person there.
I always used to say the
same thing about marriage.
And, and again, I'm, I'm
not knocking marriage.
You and I have been married
to our spouses- Yep ... for
almost the same period
of time, over 15 years.
I would say that if it wasn't
for loneliness, most marriages
wouldn't exist, right?
Yeah.
Like, the fundamental
of companionship is
what drives marriage.
And I always think
marriage is hilarious as
an institution because
there's no version of it.
There's one version.
Right.
You're married, and that's it.
Yeah.
There's no, like, lease
to own or, you know,
a kind of- You can't
correct ... alternate option.
Yeah.
Right?
There's no three-year
contract or something.
Probably should be,
but there isn't.
And, and I say that because
we're willing to, to sign up for
the only contract without much
consideration of, of any other
option 'cause we're lonely, man.
We love somebody,
and that's wonderful.
But I think for a lot of
people, you see people who've
stayed married for a long
time, you know, they've
fallen out of love, but
they don't wanna be lonely.
And I think that's a
strong statement, man.
I think that this is
fundamentally a lonely
journey even when there's
200 people in the building.
Now there's no one
in the building.
That's for sure.
No, it's, it's
unimaginable, right?
Yeah.
A- a- and we're starting
to see s- we're starting
to see some of it already.
Like, y- you know, there's
people who are out there
building and building and
building and building and
building, and their, their
heads are like... To me, the
pre-seed space has gotten kind
of bizarre all of a sudden.
Like, it's really quiet.
Not in the sense that
nobody's doing anything.
People are doing a lot of
stuff, but there's not much
noise around it, right?
The, the s- pre-seed used to
kick up a ton of dust 'cause
they were out trying to get any
kind of attention they could
so they could get a little bit
of money so they could start
to build stuff so they could
start to cobble together the
resource to build something.
Now they're just heads down
in a room by themselves
cranking stuff out.
Which, on one hand, I love,
and on the other hand, we
sort of kinda know what the
costs of some of that stuff
are in the long term, right?
Losing humanity in this
entire thing is definitely
not where we want it to go.
But on the other hand, like,
we can't pretend we still
need teams when we don't.
That's what's messing with me.
So, like, think
about it like this.
In the not too distant future,
we're gonna be able to say,
"Hey, this person would be a
great addition to my team, but
here's person and here's AI."
Now, when we stack the two next
to each other, AI costs next to
nothing, so that's never gonna
be taken off the table, right?
Right.
There's no version where
a human's gonna go down
to $400 a month, right?
Or less, right?
Not in this country, or not,
not in the United States, but,
uh- Yeah ... regardless, right?
The second part of it is AI is
going to run without management.
I don't mean management from
the standpoint that I don't
have to oversee it and make
sure it's, it's running rules.
I mean, it's not
just angry today.
It's not bitter about the
decisions we've been making
lately or, you know, all
this, you know, emotional,
uh, baggage that comes
with every person you hire.
Th- there's no question mark
as to what AI's gonna give me.
Now, a couple things- Yeah
... you know, like the output
could be a little bit of a
black box, but when you hire
somebody, uh, well, you're
going off a resume, right?
That means nothing.
Everybody's resume's
fake, right?
Yeah.
Like, I mean, I don't know
how hard this person's
actually gonna work.
I don't know what
they actually know.
I don't know how agreeable
they're gonna be.
These are all things
that I just used to have
to deal with, right?
Now I don't have to
deal with any of them.
Don't
have to.
No.
Now here's the
point.
Here's the setup.
But I have to agree that
all of those question marks
and cost and everything else
like that, and limitations-
Yeah ... are worth more
than doing it through AI.
That's a tough sell, man.
That's a tough sell.
I'm saying even if I wanted
the human, the math, I don't
just mean numerically, probably
won't check out more often than
not, which makes it very- Yeah
difficult to build a team.
Yeah.
And I think, again, like, as you
start to look around and you see
everybody else starting to race
to the bottom and try to create
competitive advantage from this,
at least in the short term you
don't really have that much
of a choice, if you wanna stay
competitive, right, if you want
to be able to continue to exist.
And so I, I think that's the
other thing that's, that's
really bizarre about this
is it isn't really a choice.
It isn't really.
Like, it looks like a choice.
Like, oh, I'll just, I
choose to keep hiring people.
You're also probably kinda
choosing to not be around
long enough to pay them very
meaningful salaries, right?
Like, well- Right ... here
is your third paycheck,
and with that, we're out of
money, and so w- we're done.
And so it leaves founders in
a really weird position where
it's not really a choice.
I mean, the choice is do
I want to have a chance at
succeeding or not, and if I-
Right ... and if I do, I have
to think about head count in
a very, very different way.
It's also typically your
biggest expense by far,
and consequentially your
biggest liability, right?
Yeah.
So it's not like, oh, by
the way, I'm gonna get
Netflix and Hulu and, and
both costs don't matter and,
like, you know, whatever.
This is, like, the number one
thing that makes or breaks
every single company, right?
Like, there's very few
companies, unless you're, like,
a manufacturer or something
like that, that have a part of,
of, of their income statement
that's bigger than salaries.
So the weight- of this
decision is massive.
And again, unlike we're gonna
lease four more vans for
our delivery service, right?
Yeah.
Vans are just vans.
These are people.
They've got emotions, they've
got families, they've got
lives, they've got opinions.
What you're bringing on isn't
just a unit of production, it's
a unit of frustration, like
you call what it is, right?
Think about, you know,
we've been around for
15 years as a company.
Think about all the characters
we've had over the years.
I know.
You immediately laugh, right?
And long-term friends that
would fit into this, it's, you
know, it's all over the map, but
they're all characters, right?
Yeah.
Here's what I'm saying.
We hired for the function, but
that's not all that we got.
Yeah, correct.
We hired a salesperson,
but that's not all we got.
Yeah.
We got a person that could
sell, but the amount of
weight that came with that,
the amount of baggage-
Yeah ... the amount of headache,
the amount of distraction,
the amount of everything.
That
we also played some hockey
with some of them, you know,
there's, there's- Yeah, yeah.
No, and, and
look, this isn't
a knock on anyone.
I, you know, I- Yeah ... I
would put myself at the
top of that category of
personality to deal with and
the weight and everything.
I get it.
I get it.
It's nature of humans.
But what I'm saying is that
baggage, you know, those
personalities, the quirks,
the complaints, the, like,
everything else like that, when
you don't have to have it...
Here's an example.
Ryan, how many times have you
committed a line of code so
far and no one complained about
what, the decision you made?
All of them.
Like- All of them.
Yeah ... 100% of
the time, right?
What version are you like,
"You know what I'd really like?
Is somebody to bitch and moan
about this the entire time."
Yeah.
I need that.
Come on, man.
That, that is actually,
that is the fuel of my soul.
Yeah, right, right.
And so, at some point, if
you're growing up on I ship
code and no one complains-
Yeah ... and all of a sudden
you bring someone on and now
they're complaining while
doing the same thing you were
doing five minutes ago- Yeah
there's no version where
you're like, "Man, I'm glad I'm
paying 200 times what I w- I
was paying yesterday for that-
Right ... same outcome," right?
And it makes it difficult.
Here's what I would say.
You know, if we're looking at
pros and cons, the pros, this
is, uh, as it relates to, you
know, uh, building up staff,
whatever, is that you build some
culture, you build some fabric.
I would argue you're paying
a massive premium for it,
but those things do matter.
If I look back at the things
that I miss from work from home,
and I'm sure you would agree,
I miss being around my friends.
I miss it.
Yeah.
And while we do Zooms,
and chats, and whatever,
that's the equivalent of
knowing- Quite the same
people on social media.
You post updates and quips,
but it's not the same thing.
We have kind of a unique
situation there too,
Will, which is that we
started in person, right?
Right.
Like, most of our team has
been with us long enough
that they were in an office
with us at some point.
Correct.
Right?
Right.
And so I think that is
exacerbated even worse, and
so, like, we're talking from
kind of with a half a deck
of cards here because we
haven't even fully experienced
what that's like, right?
When it's a remote interaction
with a person you have
literally never met in person-
You bet ... your entire life.
That's very different.
You bet.
And there's a trust that's
built and things like that.
Yeah.
Right?
So I think that the human
element is gonna transform
from a, "I'm here because
I have a capability you
couldn't have five minutes
ago," and it's- Yeah
"I'm here because as a
human I offer a dynamic, a
vector that's missing, that
you feel- Yeah ... that you
need more of." And dude, it
might just be companionship.
Might be the same reason
people get married, right?
It might be.
That's what I was saying,
Bob the office pet, right?
Right, right.
And while that's weird, I don't
think it's that inconceivable.
I'll take it back to
the, the work from home.
Sure.
There's a lot of people,
uh, managers- Yeah ... that
insist on keeping everyone in
the office, not because they
actually believe the work
can't get done, 'cause they
don't wanna go home, right?
Yeah.
I mean, dude, I don't wanna
undersell this for a second.
I know an awful
lot of CEOs, right?
Because that's just my job,
and I have a awful lot of very
candid conversations, and the
ones that are all stalwarts
about you have to come into
the office all have a very
specific situation that makes
it- Yeah ... so there's a reason
they wanna come into the office.
They want to be in the office.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Now, I'm not saying
it's bad necessarily.
Right.
I'm saying it's
not out of nowhere.
Like, I have an-
Yeah ... amazing home life.
Like, my wife and kids
are just freaking amazing.
Zero friction.
But if that were not the case,
if my wife were up my ass all
the time and my kids were just-
Yeah ... uh, psychopaths, I'd
wanna get the fuck out, right?
I'd be like, "Hell yeah,
we're having an office,
and everybody has to come
because I do," right?
So I guess what I'm saying
is I think that what's gonna
push people outside, you
know, the, the army of one,
the team of one, is going
to be a thirst for humanity,
like that lack of connection.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And I think that's gonna take
some time because I think- Yeah
that's one of those hungers that
has to build up a little bit.
I- it's one of those things
where we can say that now and
we can intellectualize it, but
I think until we've actually
experienced it and gone like,
"Damn, yeah, this is really,
really lonely. Yeah, I am now
shipping stuff all by myself,
haven't had to talk to a human
in, in two weeks, and oh my
God, I haven't talked to a
human in two weeks," right?
At some point- People
all the time now.
Yeah ... that, that
bill starts to come due.
Yeah, it'll be interesting
to see how long
that actually takes.
And I gotta say this, like
personally, I think a startup
that's made up of lots of
people, lots of voices, lots
of personality is really what
a startup is meant to be in
the same way I feel like that's
what a community is meant
to be, what a family- Yeah
is meant to be, et cetera.
It's this fabric and this
tapestry of all these voices.
But the truth is not all
those voices that used to get
grandfathered in in the past
just because they were the
only person that could write
code or the only person who
knew accounting are getting
an automatic Willy Wonka
ticket to the table anymore.
Right.
And I think for a lot of
startups, for a lot of founders,
we're gonna be in a position
f- for the first time that
team of one is the default.
Team of one, like, is how
people build companies.
Yeah.
And it will be a, both a
luxury and a hard decision
to add humans to this
community, to this tapestry.
I think that's a difficult
future, but I don't think
there's any question whatsoever
that that is the future that
we're all looking at right now.
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