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Geek Therapy's anime and manga podcast.
Josué (00:05)
Welcome to Otaku Ryoho on the GT network. Here at Geek Therapy, we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. And here on Otaku Ryoho, we're all about anime and manga. My name is Josué Cardona and I am joined by super normal person, Rae Hoover.
Rae Hoover (00:25)
Hey,
that's me, super normal person.
Josué (00:31)
Rae, what's the topic today?
Rae Hoover (00:33)
Today, today we shall be discussing strong female characters trademark. just strong female characters in anime and anime adjacent things.
Josué (00:46)
Hmm,
hmm, hmm. Okay. Have you thought of any?
Rae Hoover (00:52)
I've I've thought of I've thought of a handful. I've thought of a handful.
Josué (00:55)
Okay.
Rae Hoover (00:57)
yeah, for for why we're talking about strong female characters, I am a strong female character myself, one could say, and
Josué (01:07)
Hmm.
Rae Hoover (01:08)
they they matter a lot to me. Honestly. Like representation really matters. Why? 'Cause sometimes 'cause
Josué (01:12)
Why? Yeah, why do they matter to you?
Rae Hoover (01:17)
sometimes it's bullshit that only the boys get the
To do cool things.
Josué (01:23)
I agree, I agree. Do you have any favorites?
Rae Hoover (01:27)
Do I have any favorites? absolutely. I have I have many favorites. We're going to get into a lot of them. one of the first ones that came to mind when I was thinking of this topic was Winry Rockbell from Full Metal Alchemist. she's a favorite.
Josué (01:44)
Why? What is it about her?
Rae Hoover (01:46)
What is it about Winry specifically?
Josué (01:48)
Yeah.
Rae Hoover (01:50)
she is fully capable and a force in her own right. a lot of women get sidelined. A lot of women, get designated as like the brains or the healer or something, which like, there's space for those roles as well. they are important.
But it's really nice to see people be on the front lines. And sometimes that's as a fighter, and sometimes that's as support. And for Winry, she's she's a mechanic. she's the auto mail mechanic engineer. mechanics are largely male-dominated as well. So the fact that it's Winry who's like excelling at this.
and she's a teenage girl, that's incredible. It also shows that women can be masculine and like very capable and it's okay to be masculine or have masculine
Josué (02:47)
Yeah.
Rae Hoover (02:47)
interests.
Josué (02:52)
Yeah, you said that the female character is often relegated to like a support role.
Rae Hoover (03:00)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (03:01)
And when I first thought of Winry, I thought she is essential,
Rae Hoover (03:07)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (03:07)
right? She's also like exemplary, right? Like she's like really good at what she does.
Rae Hoover (03:14)
Yeah.
Josué (03:14)
One of the best. Without her, there is no...
no Edward, right?
Rae Hoover (03:22)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (03:23)
least half of him isn't as good as it is it is. And
Rae Hoover (03:26)
Exactly.
Josué (03:28)
so she is so important. But but you're right, she's not. She is a support role. Again, I would say essential, but
Rae Hoover (03:36)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (03:37)
but a support role. And that's very different than being the hero, being the protagonist, the being the lead.
than being the one that gets to win, right? Instead of just the one who assisted the win. I think it depends too on, I'm very curious, because I do like Winry as a character, and
Rae Hoover (04:06)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (04:06)
she feels so essential.
Right, she's not on the cover. Right,
Rae Hoover (04:12)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (04:13)
yeah, yeah, yeah. So then what about someone like, is it similar or is it different for someone like Nami on One Piece where again, without Nami, they literally don't get anywhere, right?
Rae Hoover (04:26)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (04:27)
Like they would be lost, they would have never gotten anywhere. Yeah, yeah, they still be circling the first island
Rae Hoover (04:34)
Yeah.
Josué (04:35)
if it weren't for Nami. And...
And she offers, she is literally the navigator, but I would say she is also, she plays the same role in other ways as well.
Rae Hoover (04:47)
Mm.
Josué (04:48)
Even when they're not navigating the seas, she offers direction and structure and points people in the right thing. I think she's so important.
Rae Hoover (04:58)
Mm.
Josué (04:59)
I consider her more of a main character than Winry.
Rae Hoover (05:02)
Yeah. Yeah.
Josué (05:05)
Like I do feel that even though Luffy is Luffy, the straw hats do feel like they're all protagonists of this.
Rae Hoover (05:16)
Yeah.
Josué (05:17)
Yeah, I feel that way anyway, yeah.
Rae Hoover (05:19)
Yeah,
same, same.
Josué (05:21)
So how different does it feel like to see?
Nami? Like how differently do you see Nami compared to Winry in those contexts?
Rae Hoover (05:28)
Hmm. That is a good question there because like, yeah, they they both do feel a little bit different, important in similar ways, but like they fill different roles. And I think Nami is is great as you know, like a strong female character trademark. yeah, because she shows that you don't need to be a fighter.
In order to, you know, like have in you know, an important role or have like really excellent skills at whatever it is you do. she can fight, she's not helpless. Yeah, Robin's the same way, like can fight, maybe chooses not to if if the choice is there. but like I th fan letter especially kind of like showed this that like
it matters for different women to see women in these different roles because that's going to resonate with different people. Winry like resonates more with me because I do l like lean into more of that like masculine interest and and experience. you know, one of my interests and something I've been really getting into this year specifically is metalworking.
It's something I love. I really love it. And I'm I love that I'm finally able to do it. but it's definitely not like, you know, your stereotypical or your or common like interests that women have. so I felt very seen by Winry. I can see for Nami that other people will see will be very seen by her. And that's why they're both important. But like I think they're both important.
I'm not also not the overall authority on this, of course. But yeah, like Nami's gonna resonate for other people.
Josué (07:31)
So at the beginning you said it's important because of representation. I often bring up there's a nonprofit from those funded by the actress Gina Davis and it's called the She Can See It, She Can Be It.
Rae Hoover (07:48)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (07:48)
And it's all about representation in Hollywood and in film. And it's this idea like.
if a girl can see a female character in a movie, they can imagine themselves as that. They
Rae Hoover (08:00)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (08:00)
can imagine themselves, in case of Winry, as a mechanic, as one of the best, just so many positive things in that world. And then Nami, the same way, right? Like as an essential piece of the crew.
as a main character, also eventually as a fighter and being stronger, like just being strong and being able to hold her own and all of those things is important.
Rae Hoover (08:27)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (08:28)
That's like the reason why we're having this conversation.
Rae Hoover (08:32)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (08:33)
I am not female. So keep that in mind with everything I say.
Rae Hoover (08:37)
Whoa, what? Crazy revelation. Yeah.
Josué (08:44)
Right?
we're talking about two shows that have a male protagonist.
Rae Hoover (08:48)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (08:48)
There are shows that have female protagonists,
Rae Hoover (08:51)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (08:51)
it's worth talking about some of those. But these
Rae Hoover (08:53)
Definitely.
Josué (08:54)
two shows in particular, I think they have many strong female characters,
Rae Hoover (09:01)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (09:01)
right? At different, on all sides, right?
Rae Hoover (09:06)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (09:06)
So in Fullmetal, you have...
The alchemists, right? You have top ranking female soldiers. Among the villains, you have very powerful
Rae Hoover (09:21)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (09:22)
women as well. In One Piece, you have entire crews where the captains are women. And so like in those worlds, it is possible. It just
Rae Hoover (09:35)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (09:36)
so happens that the characters that we're following.
protagonists are male characters
Rae Hoover (09:43)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (09:44)
as tends to be in shounen.
Rae Hoover (09:46)
Yeah, annoyingly.
Josué (09:49)
Is there any shounen? Like I know that by definition a shounen doesn't need to have a male protagonist,
Rae Hoover (09:56)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (09:58)
but is there any shounen with a female protagonist?
Rae Hoover (10:02)
God I wish. I I not that I can think of.
Josué (10:05)
It's pretty
split, right? Like the Shoujo's have a female protagonist and the Shounen have a male protagonist.
Rae Hoover (10:12)
Yeah. What is
what category is what how do you pronounce it? Which had Atelier, like
Josué (10:19)
Atelier, Atelier,
yeah. I wouldn't con, okay, that's a great
Rae Hoover (10:24)
I think it's
Josué (10:24)
question.
Rae Hoover (10:25)
I think it's published in shown and jump, but like I'm not but there's also a lot
Josué (10:28)
Really? Hmm...
Rae Hoover (10:30)
of w things that aren't technically shown and that get published in shown and jump.
Josué (10:34)
But I don't know if it would be categorized as a show for young girls versus a show for young boys. Again, going by that definition of shonen and shojo. Like,
Rae Hoover (10:43)
Yeah.
Josué (10:43)
I don't know. is it a shonen? Like, would I categorize? Have you watched it or read the manga?
Rae Hoover (10:49)
I've watched a
like a a couple of episodes.
Josué (10:52)
Hmm. I mean the tropes are there. The main character is
Rae Hoover (10:54)
Yeah.
Josué (10:54)
definitely female.
Rae Hoover (10:56)
Yeah. And I think all
Josué (10:58)
Yeah.
Rae Hoover (10:59)
the other students at least
Josué (11:01)
And
you have a white haired mentor, which is also a Shonen trope.
Rae Hoover (11:05)
Apparently, yeah.
Josué (11:09)
That's a good question. I don't know. I'm just going to look up real quick. If
Rae Hoover (11:16)
Yeah, go for it.
Josué (11:19)
I look up.
Okay, so why are you asking about this one in particular?
Rae Hoover (11:26)
Because if it if
it categorizes as a shonen, then like it would be one that actually has a female main character, female protagonist. But like that I mean, Frieren's also I think through Shonen Jump. I don't know, I might be spreading misinformation.
Josué (11:49)
Okay, the first, believe it was Wikipedia that classified
Rae Hoover (11:52)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (11:53)
Wichita Atelier as a seinen. And
Rae Hoover (11:58)
Okay. Yeah.
Josué (11:59)
a seinen is a demographic classification for manga and anime targeting adult men typically aged 18 to 40.
Rae Hoover (12:07)
Yeah.
Josué (12:08)
So I think it's because of, probably because it's a, it does,
skew more violent and more serious, I think, which
Rae Hoover (12:20)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Josué (12:23)
I thought you were right. Like it's darker, like the themes are darker, are much
Rae Hoover (12:25)
Definitely.
Josué (12:26)
darker than... I hadn't thought of it that way.
Rae Hoover (12:31)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (12:32)
I don't know if I knew the term, Seinen.
Rae Hoover (12:34)
I I think
Attack on Titan is a
Josué (12:37)
Probably.
Rae Hoover (12:37)
Yeah,
is is that one.
Josué (12:40)
My favorite, my favorite anime. Yeah,
Rae Hoover (12:43)
Yeah.
Josué (12:45)
stuff like Berserk, Vinland Saga,
Rae Hoover (12:48)
Mm.
Josué (12:49)
Monster, Ghost in the Shell. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay, yeah. Well, then I guess like we can, can.
We mostly talk about Shonan this season,
Rae Hoover (13:06)
Yeah.
Josué (13:06)
right? Because of the interests of the
Rae Hoover (13:10)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (13:11)
hosts of the show. Current interests. Okay. So yeah, so I think it's also important for boys to see strong female characters, but that's not the point of this, right? But like, it's a plus.
Rae Hoover (13:24)
Yeah.
Josué (13:25)
That's not the point of this conversation.
Rae Hoover (13:27)
Well, actually I'm
I am curious, what is that like for boys? What was it like for you as a boy to see female protagonists or female lead characters, major characters?
Josué (13:39)
For me, this conversation it's always surprised me
Rae Hoover (13:42)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (13:43)
because.
I always saw my grandmother as a strong woman, my mom
Rae Hoover (13:46)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (13:46)
as strong women, I have two sisters, they're kind of bad asses, right? To me, yeah,
Rae Hoover (13:51)
I would assume so.
Josué (13:52)
so this kind of thing has always been moot, right?
Rae Hoover (13:55)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (13:56)
To me, I'm like, what are you talking about? Of course, the first Star Trek that was like my Star Trek was Voyager, right? It
Rae Hoover (14:05)
well then.
Josué (14:06)
wasn't strange to me that there was a female captain.
So every time the conversation comes up, it's, yeah, it never surprises me. Like, I don't know, Battlestar Galactica, right? We talk a lot about it on sci-fi. And we're talking about anime. Yeah.
Rae Hoover (14:19)
Mm. Yeah. It's our podcast, we can do what we want.
Josué (14:26)
But it was one of those things that I never saw the original show.
Rae Hoover (14:28)
Mm.
Josué (14:28)
So to me that Starbuck was female suddenly, it wasn't like a thing. Like whenever that happens, I don't know. I'm rewatching Doctor Who right now and I
Rae Hoover (14:37)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (14:37)
just got to...
to the 13th Doctor, which is the first
Rae Hoover (14:40)
Nice.
Josué (14:41)
female portrayed doctor on the show. And by that, mean, the doctor always made allusions to having been different genders in the past, but we'd never seen
Rae Hoover (14:50)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (14:51)
that. And now, canonically, she's not even the first female
Rae Hoover (14:55)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (14:56)
one, but she was the first on-screen version of a female doctor that we had. And I'm always like...
debating in my own head like, if somebody asks me who my favorite doctor is, it's one of my favorite shows, who do I say? And they keep changing. And now that I've rewatched the show, as I was watching the other doctors, I kept thinking about like how 13 might be.
be my favorite? Like I've always said Matt Smith was my favorite, but then I saw Capaldi and I'm like, Capaldi I love, but then now I'm seeing that, like I really liked them all.
Rae Hoover (15:27)
Yeah.
Josué (15:28)
But I like her enough that it doesn't feel different to me. And it doesn't feel foreign, right?
Rae Hoover (15:35)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (15:35)
I'm like, she's such a good doctor, right? Like that character, they all play it so well. And depending on the day, I might say she's my favorite.
Rae Hoover (15:43)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (15:44)
And like I'm currently having that internal debate.
Rae Hoover (15:47)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (15:48)
So again, so for me, I can't really answer that question in a way that's like, it was inspiring to me or blah, blah, right? think it on the contrary, I think it's the opposite when I don't see, when I see a female character that is struggling with getting a promotion or getting all these other things, right? I'm like, yeah, that does happen. Like that sucks. Like, like
Rae Hoover (16:08)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (16:08)
why can't she, you know, but it never, yeah, it's always been cool to me. I don't know. Yeah. But it's because of my life. Yeah.
Rae Hoover (16:14)
Yeah. So it's almost been normalized Yeah,
exactly. It's been normalized in the opposite way that like all the women around you have always been strong. So this is this is a Tuesday for you, essentially.
Josué (16:28)
The
older I get, just the stranger it is that men are always protagonists.
Rae Hoover (16:32)
Right. It really is.
Josué (16:34)
stupid.
Well, and so so to that one of things I was thinking about was
Dragon Ball. We always talk about the same three shows, think. Every episode. Plus Star Trek, right?
Rae Hoover (16:45)
Mm-hmm. Three shows and also Star Trek. Yeah.
Josué (16:54)
Dragon Ball. Goku is the protagonist,
Rae Hoover (16:57)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (16:58)
but he is admittedly not smart, right? the show starts with him being a child.
who is not, he's less smart when he's a kid than he is an
Rae Hoover (17:12)
Yeah.
Josué (17:13)
adult. He didn't get much smarter, but he really is like wild, living on his own. He doesn't know much. And the first thing that happens is that he meets a competent older female character. And then without her, there is no Dragon Ball. Without Bulma, there is no Goku. And in the show, Bulma is an inventor.
Rae Hoover (17:37)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (17:38)
She's also like the logical, like he's looking like he doesn't know that there are more Dragon Balls. She has, she's made a machine that tracks them down. And
Rae Hoover (17:45)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (17:46)
throughout the show,
it has always had strong female characters as well.
Rae Hoover (17:50)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (17:50)
And even in Super, it goes and it shows like in other universes, like the strongest Saiyans are women because they were allowed
Rae Hoover (18:00)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (18:00)
to fight and I don't think they were as allowed. Well, no, that's not true. There's also like female warriors, like fewer in our universe, but in other universes, like we get to see the versions of like the legendary Super Saiyan and all that.
They are female and they are capable
Rae Hoover (18:14)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (18:15)
and they are powerful. I came to a very strange realization with Chi Chi earlier today. I don't know. So when, when Goku meets Chi Chi, they're kids
Rae Hoover (18:30)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (18:30)
and she like falls in love with him. And basically as the story progresses, she basically forces him to marry her and
Rae Hoover (18:39)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (18:40)
I had a really weird realization about like, I think that's a very abusive relationship. It's not really part of this, yeah. Anyway,
Rae Hoover (18:51)
Yeah.
Josué (18:52)
but she's a strong character and she's like head of the household and like all this kind of stuff.
as like,
the way she is portrayed is like a, like a demanding and pushy wife, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sort of.
Rae Hoover (19:10)
A nag. The nagging wife, the the old ball and chain kind of thing. Yeah.
Josué (19:16)
So I mean, I'm not saying it's good representation,
Rae Hoover (19:19)
Yeah.
Josué (19:19)
right? But this goes to like, what are we showing, right? Like if we
Rae Hoover (19:22)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (19:22)
show, like if it's balanced, I think it's better, right? Like
Rae Hoover (19:27)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (19:28)
Master Roshi is a pervy old man,
Rae Hoover (19:32)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (19:33)
but he's also like a good teacher and a good friend and like, but he's still like this pervy old man, right? Like he's not a character to aspire to.
Rae Hoover (19:42)
Yeah.
Josué (19:43)
I think that even Chi Chi,
is sure she's a nag, like Goku sees her as a nag, but in general she's just like a really concerned mom.
she's worried about her husband. She's upset that he doesn't do the things that he should be doing. I sent you to get groceries and you went off and like went off to fight aliens. what, you know, I can do, get your driver's license, you know, like we,
Rae Hoover (20:03)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, Chi Chi's got it rough, honestly. Mm-hmm.
Josué (20:10)
he's like, I can fly. It's like, but we can't fly everywhere.
I think that car. Yeah,
Rae Hoover (20:14)
You need to learn how to drive.
Josué (20:16)
yeah, yeah. Which is interesting. there are Dragon Ball skews way more male on the hero side. again, have some of the, like Bulma is very much a Winry and then Chi-Chi is much more of a protagonist as well for the majority of the show, especially at the beginning. But never the star.
Rae Hoover (20:36)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (20:37)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rae Hoover (20:38)
Yeah. Even Chi Chi has some growth. Like after Goku dies during the the Cell Saga. Spoilers for like a 30 year old show, I guess. he dies during the cell saga. And apparently during that time when he's dead, Chi Chi get really gets on, I think Goten about training. Cause he wasn't
Josué (21:01)
Yeah.
Rae Hoover (21:02)
even born yet, and then he showed up like during that, and she
She was the exact opposite as she was with Gohan, with Goten and was like, No, you need to train like crazy kid. And it's really interesting to see that growth. I I enjoy that.
Josué (21:17)
I think she's a good mom. She's portrayed like, again, like exaggerating, like,
Rae Hoover (21:21)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (21:22)
like a nag is a good word for it, right?
Rae Hoover (21:24)
Yeah.
Josué (21:25)
But she's not like, she's not asking him to watch the kids while she goes and hangs out like for brunch with her friends, right? Like, because she just wants to, it's like, which is also okay, right? But it's like, it's not that, it's like she just
Rae Hoover (21:40)
Yeah.
Josué (21:40)
wants to sit around and watch the soap opera all day while, and ask, it's like, hey.
Like, I'll cook for you, I'll clean, I'll do this, like, I'm taking care this, but like, you need to do something too. Get over here, what are you doing?
Rae Hoover (21:52)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (21:52)
I don't know, think she's a cool character.
Rae Hoover (21:55)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (21:57)
Slightly, I'll tell you later what the realization I came to.
Rae Hoover (22:01)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (22:01)
But good combination of portrayal of like female representation, I think, in the show as
Rae Hoover (22:08)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (22:09)
well. Yeah. There's like also other important characters.
Rae Hoover (22:13)
Android eighteen was everything to me when I was young.
Josué (22:16)
What,
Android 18. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
Rae Hoover (22:19)
Because she's a fighter,
like and I am always going to be the one who's like, no, women need to be the fighters too. And you just don't see that nearly as much. And so like eight a
Josué (22:30)
Yeah.
Rae Hoover (22:30)
eighteen meant like everything to me. I was like, finally
Josué (22:34)
That's a good point, yeah, yeah, yeah. And Bedell is also a cool character. Yeah.
Rae Hoover (22:37)
But yeah, Videl Videl's a baddie too. Like she's she's
a baddie too. And then she kind of gives the all of that up and doesn't really care as much later, but
Yeah.
Josué (22:53)
we're talking about anime okay
there's a show that i will continue to shame you about not watching
Rae Hoover (22:58)
Yes, here we go.
Josué (23:00)
here we go what show am i talking about
Rae Hoover (23:02)
Naruto.
Josué (23:03)
yep so in naruto specific this is specifically this is not a spoiler for the show okay
Rae Hoover (23:10)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (23:11)
this is once naruto is done and shippuden is done there is a follow-up called Boruto which is like
Rae Hoover (23:18)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (23:19)
the Boruto next generation it is
Rae Hoover (23:20)
Basically.
Josué (23:22)
It is the kids and they did all of the female ninjas so dirty.
Rae Hoover (23:29)
That's what I've heard.
Josué (23:30)
They just because just because of how they age them up.
Rae Hoover (23:33)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (23:34)
They like they gained weight. They got all wrinkly. They got like they were it was just unbelievable what they did.
Rae Hoover (23:41)
huh.
Josué (23:45)
man. Men got kind of like sexier, you know, like they're like,
Rae Hoover (23:49)
Of course.
Josué (23:49)
you know, they kind of had a
And then I was like, that was something that stood out to me from the show. Technically that has nothing to do with Naruto in the sense that like, it's mostly a different writer and creator.
Rae Hoover (24:01)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (24:02)
But I wondered if that's like a cultural thing because even in Dragon Ball.
Bulma and Chi Chi are getting older and they talk
Rae Hoover (24:10)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (24:10)
about getting older. And there's like a joke about how Bulma will like use the Dragon Balls for basically plastic surgery. Have you seen this? Yeah,
Rae Hoover (24:18)
Go off, Queen. Like
Josué (24:20)
yeah, yeah, yeah. She'll be like, they're like, wait, who used the Dragon Balls last? Right? And then they find out she just like got a little tuck here and like got a little, and she's like, I only do like a couple of years at a time, but I don't want it to be so obvious, you know?
and take her like tighten her butt like that's what she goes to the to the eternal dragon for so funny
Rae Hoover (24:38)
Ridiculous.
Josué (24:39)
but but obviously like Goku and Vegeta don't look old the worst as they get older like they're not aging you could say they're yeah yeah yeah yeah
Rae Hoover (24:48)
They haven't aged a day since they hit eighteen, really.
Josué (24:52)
they only get stronger and sometimes look younger depending on who's animating them
Rae Hoover (24:56)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (24:57)
You could say they're aliens and whatever, I've
Rae Hoover (24:59)
Yeah.
Josué (25:00)
just been wondering if that's a thing. Most anime doesn't transcend generations, so I don't know how often that comes up.
Rae Hoover (25:06)
Yeah. Yeah.
Josué (25:09)
That is interesting. But I did bring up Naruto. I want to shame you a second time. No, for not watching it.
Rae Hoover (25:12)
Mm-hmm. Go ahead. You're allowed.
Josué (25:16)
But you brought up in when we were just like planning this out, you were curious about my thoughts about some of the characters in
Rae Hoover (25:23)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (25:23)
Naruto. So what was your question?
Rae Hoover (25:25)
So like again, I have not seen it, so what I've heard is that
Josué (25:29)
Unbelievable.
Rae Hoover (25:30)
yeah, you're you are very aware more than anyone. what I've heard is that the the women in that show are not written very well. And when I say that, I mean like they again, this is just what I have heard, that they are very one dimensional sometimes and can be very much like
only interested in their their love interest and they don't really have any depth beyond that. I don't like yeah, correct me if I'm wrong. Again, this is not my opinion, it's just my impression.
Josué (26:03)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's been a while.
Rae Hoover (26:05)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (26:06)
So I don't remember, like, I clearly brought up the Boruto like aging the women,
Rae Hoover (26:11)
Yeah.
Josué (26:11)
like that was messed up. In the show itself, I don't agree with that statement. One is that like the main team, team seven is Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura. And I think Sakura is a pretty cool character.
Rae Hoover (26:29)
Yeah.
Josué (26:30)
She is always portrayed as physically strong, the strongest, one of the strongest like people on the show period.
Rae Hoover (26:37)
Yeah.
Josué (26:38)
when they start, are kids. And she has a crush on one of the characters, but one of the other characters has a crush on her. So
Rae Hoover (26:44)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Josué (26:46)
like they're all kids and they're all like, some of them are crushing on each other, but I do not think, I think it would be a disservice to say that Sakura is like, that her motivation is her crush.
Rae Hoover (26:59)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (27:00)
I would say that that is not it at all.
Rae Hoover (27:03)
Are there other female ninjas, like side characters
Josué (27:05)
Mm-hmm.
Rae Hoover (27:06)
that that would maybe apply to more? Really?
Josué (27:08)
No, I
think it would apply the most to her because she's the one with the most screen time.
Rae Hoover (27:16)
Yeah.
Josué (27:16)
And at the beginning, there's like a love triangle kind of like people are crushing on each other and nobody's reciprocating.
Rae Hoover (27:22)
Yeah.
Josué (27:23)
But they are like kids were like, you know, he's so cute.
Rae Hoover (27:26)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (27:26)
and stuff like that. But I don't think it applies to any of the other characters. And I think that over time,
I think that they deal with that aspect pretty well where
Rae Hoover (27:37)
Okay.
Josué (27:38)
in Naruto, again, I may be wrong. And it may be that like, I just didn't see that when
Rae Hoover (27:45)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (27:45)
I watched the show. And it might be glaringly obvious now,
Rae Hoover (27:48)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (27:49)
but I can't think of any characters in Naruto that felt like one dimensional. there's
Rae Hoover (27:55)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (27:55)
even like later on you meet Tsunade, which is one of the previous
Hokage, like the mayors of the town.
Rae Hoover (28:05)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (28:06)
And she's a pretty cool, she's a great character, right? Naruto doesn't have, a funny thing to me about Naruto is that when they go into Boruto, a lot of the characters that you know from throughout the show who, sure maybe one was crushing on the other, but
Rae Hoover (28:24)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (28:25)
like there was no even, there's no romance subplot really ever in
Rae Hoover (28:29)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (28:30)
the show. It really is like,
ninjas just fighting for their lives
Rae Hoover (28:33)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (28:34)
Like saving the town. It is so funny how many of them all just hooked up and had babies for
Rae Hoover (28:41)
Fair.
Josué (28:45)
I think, but I also don't like I also kind of check out of the romance stuff.
Rae Hoover (28:50)
Mm.
Josué (28:51)
So, you know, I may not be the best person, but I don't think I don't think that that's a fair assessment.
Rae Hoover (28:57)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (28:58)
Yeah, I don't think it's, it's super accurate of, of, Naruto, of them like being one note. The girls only care about the boys. It's like,
Rae Hoover (29:08)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (29:09)
the stakes are usually so much higher than that. Yeah. Yeah. Their motivations are pretty different.
Rae Hoover (29:16)
Mm-hmm.
So yeah, tell me about Sakura and what her personal arc is about.
Josué (29:22)
So in the ninja school, the kids get split up into teams and she just so happens to be on the team with their protagonist,
Rae Hoover (29:29)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (29:29)
right? Which is Naruto. And so Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura are team seven. They have Kikashi who is one of the best white haired mentors.
Rae Hoover (29:43)
Mm.
Josué (29:45)
And so she,
She's physically strong. She is basically paired up with the two possibly like strongest characters, maybe in the universe, if you put it that
Rae Hoover (29:59)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (29:59)
way. And she is like book smart right? Where she gets
Rae Hoover (30:02)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (30:03)
the theory, but she's constantly sees that she has to catch up to
Rae Hoover (30:07)
Mm.
Josué (30:08)
them. like they portray her and like they each have their own strengths and they're always pushing each other.
Rae Hoover (30:15)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (30:15)
Basically,
so she becomes incredibly strong and then it does come to a point where She needs to choose I think she X this is this is the way I remember it I may be wrong, but I think she accepts that there's no way that she can be as strong as these two
Rae Hoover (30:30)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (30:31)
because Not because they're boys and she's a girl but because
the nepotism, let's
Rae Hoover (30:37)
Mm.
Josué (30:38)
just put it that way, right? For either biological or other reasons, like they are gifted. They have gifts that she does not have. So she's
Rae Hoover (30:47)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (30:47)
always at a disadvantage. And there is a point where she realizes, I need to get stronger, but I also need to know how to, she becomes a healer sort of, right?
Rae Hoover (30:58)
Yeah.
Josué (30:59)
So that trope, that piece does come in, but she is, she does that simul-
The strange thing is she doesn't stop fighting. She becomes ridiculously strong. it is one of those things where you may have seen there's this illustration, apparently the mangaka, he used to always like draw her in like extra, like in bonus material with
Rae Hoover (31:22)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (31:22)
a giant mallet. Like just to
Rae Hoover (31:25)
Mm.
Josué (31:25)
show that she was like so strong that she could like wield this gigantic weapon. She never wields it in the manga or the show itself.
Rae Hoover (31:33)
So
Josué (31:34)
but she has opportunities where she's like, she can do Goku shit. Like she could like punch a mountain, right? Like when they
Rae Hoover (31:41)
Damn, okay.
Josué (31:42)
show how strong she is, like there's no question that she is the strongest person in the village
Rae Hoover (31:48)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (31:48)
by a lot. But she also decides, she's not like, I want to become a healer. She's like, I just met the world's greatest healer. This
Rae Hoover (31:56)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (31:56)
is an opportunity for me to train and learn some cool stuff that
Rae Hoover (32:02)
Okay.
Josué (32:02)
I think will be like,
a for me to contribute in a way that they can't and that I can excel at. So I hear, I hear, right? I hear it.
Rae Hoover (32:10)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (32:10)
Does that make her a secondary character? Like, I don't know, you know?
Rae Hoover (32:14)
Nah.
Josué (32:15)
Like, I don't think that Sanji becoming the cook makes him less of, right? It's like, no, like this is what I can do for the team. It feels very much like that. Like we each have a role to play and she
Rae Hoover (32:26)
Yeah.
Josué (32:26)
leans into that role.
Yes, she is the one female character on the team. There's only three of them, right?
Rae Hoover (32:32)
Yeah. To be fair.
Josué (32:34)
She doesn't have the traumatic backstory that the other two did. Like, she's the most fortunate one. Yeah, yeah,
Rae Hoover (32:40)
she's actually well adjusted. Okay.
Josué (32:42)
yeah, the other two, whoo, yeah. She made some good decisions.
while being a part of that particular.
surrounded by that team.
Rae Hoover (32:50)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (32:51)
Yeah, for sure.
Rae Hoover (32:52)
So it sounds like she's like instead of her getting sidelined by like, you're a girl, you're a healer, you know, you you're not a fighter. It sounds like she takes the healing as an opportunity for additional growth and she adds it to her skill set. You know, it's not like this is the only thing you're allowed to do.
Josué (33:10)
Nobody even suggested it to her if I remember correctly. Right.
Rae Hoover (33:13)
Okay.
Josué (33:14)
She's like, and she's also not like, maybe I should be a healer. She's like, you were the greatest healer. Like I just saw you basically bring somebody back from the dead. Can you teach me how to do that? Because I think that's going to be helpful in the future, not just
Rae Hoover (33:26)
Yeah.
Josué (33:27)
to help my team, but like, because we're like in a war basically for our lives. And
Rae Hoover (33:29)
Yeah. Okay.
Josué (33:32)
it always feels like she's driving, right? It's
Rae Hoover (33:36)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (33:36)
her personal motivation is to
help others, which is also Naruto's motivation, right?
Rae Hoover (33:42)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (33:42)
But he's, their avenues of doing that are different.
Rae Hoover (33:46)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (33:47)
I think the Sakura character is great. When she
Rae Hoover (33:49)
Yeah.
Josué (33:49)
was younger, I did find her annoying.
Rae Hoover (33:52)
Yeah.
Josué (33:53)
I think they're all kind of annoying, actually, to be honest. If I really think about it, all three of them are very annoying, his kids.
Rae Hoover (33:59)
Yeah.
Josué (34:00)
But it's like, they're kids, they're like really young kids. One is like super angsty,
It's a thing, but I think it's a good portrayal of kids. But again, I think Sakura is a cool character.
Rae Hoover (34:10)
Yeah. She sounds cool.
Josué (34:13)
And her daughter is such a good character. Yeah, because it's the kind of, if Sakura grew up and raised a kid, that's the kid that she has. It's like, that's a
Rae Hoover (34:31)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (34:31)
good kid.
Is also a good mom probably like the
Rae Hoover (34:34)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (34:35)
best mom also. I don't think they've ever done sakura dirty. I may be biased you have to Have to watch the show yourself
Rae Hoover (34:43)
For the record, I have
tried. They the dub is in licensing limbo hell. I cannot find it right now. I have tried. I need I need that on the record.
Josué (34:55)
Don't worry, there's a live action movie coming soon. Ugh.
Rae Hoover (34:57)
no
God, okay.
Josué (35:00)
pains me.
Yeah. But it's like, it's like, it's also not just a live action movie. It's like, it's a
Rae Hoover (35:11)
I'm afraid of the words you're gonna say.
Josué (35:16)
It's like a serious attempt at a live action movie. And
Rae Hoover (35:19)
no.
Josué (35:20)
by that, I mean that like the director of the Spider-Man movie that just came out that may become the highest grossing film of all time in a couple of weeks is not doing the next Spider-Man film because he wants to do the Naruto movie. And he could do anything that he wanted pretty much.
Rae Hoover (35:42)
no.
Josué (35:42)
And he has like huge accolades, right? Like the thing is like, it's in the hands of a serious
Rae Hoover (35:47)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (35:48)
director who like does write by source material. And this is what he wants to do. So I am, I am way more optimistic because of that.
Rae Hoover (36:00)
Okay.
Josué (36:01)
I'm not super optimistic. But the fact that it's
Rae Hoover (36:03)
Yeah, yeah. Having flashbacks.
Josué (36:06)
him and he's going to have, you know,
a budget and like, and he cares about it. I'm, I'm willing to see. Yeah. What happens?
Rae Hoover (36:16)
Yeah.
Josué (36:16)
Cause I, again, I, I speak very highly of the show. think, I think, and I never read the manga, but I think the show is, is good. Yeah. It's a good story to tell.
Rae Hoover (36:24)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'll try to keep an open mind with
the with the live action there.
Josué (36:30)
Yeah, yeah, we'll see.
Rae Hoover (36:32)
Yeah, no, sa Sakura sounds pretty cool.
Josué (36:35)
I think she's a cool character. Yeah.
Rae Hoover (36:36)
Yeah.
Josué (36:37)
I do remember being very annoyed by her. This is actually, actually now that I think about it, I may be on record saying that I don't like Sakura as a character. Now.
Now I don't think she's a bad character. I think she's great. Yeah.
Rae Hoover (36:50)
What an arc. You
had your own arc.
Josué (36:54)
Yeah, now I'm questioning. Human memory is garbage, remember,
Rae Hoover (36:59)
It is.
Josué (37:01)
right? So, but I only have good memories left over now. Maybe I lost all the bad ones first of her. I think she's a good character, yeah. Yeah.
Rae Hoover (37:11)
Yeah. That's fair.
Josué (37:13)
Actually, she's also, is this a trope as well? She's kind of like, she's actually a little nerdy and like pedantic and like by the rules, you know?
Rae Hoover (37:26)
Mm.
Josué (37:27)
She's like, hey, we can't do this. These are the rules, you know? Like she's
Rae Hoover (37:29)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (37:30)
that character. So I think that is an annoying character in a Shonen especially.
Rae Hoover (37:38)
Yeah. it's also reflective of society and and just how women and girls are expected to behave, especially in school.
Josué (37:48)
It's like in My Hero, what's the class rep's name?
Rae Hoover (37:53)
Ida's Ida's a class rap. Yeah.
Josué (37:54)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah,
he, right? Like I find him annoying for the same reason. Right?
Rae Hoover (37:59)
yeah, okay.
Josué (38:00)
It's like, it's that kind of thing where it's like, Hey, you're not following the rules. didn't do your homework. I'm going to tell on you kind of thing. Right? Like
Rae Hoover (38:05)
Mm. Yeah, a tattletale.
Josué (38:08)
it's, like, yeah, yeah. Like a goody two shoes kind of character when you've got like all these rebels and, and, know, like you want them to break the rules and there's that one character. So Sakura plays that role as well, which
makes her annoying at the beginning.
Rae Hoover (38:23)
Yeah.
Josué (38:23)
Yeah.
Rae Hoover (38:24)
But like you gotta start flawed in order to to grow.
Josué (38:26)
Again, I think she's pretty well-rounded, like that stuff makes her anxious. She doesn't want to
Rae Hoover (38:31)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (38:32)
do that. Her daughter is like that as well. I don't know, it's cool. Yeah, I like Sakura.
Rae Hoover (38:38)
And if anything, like
I'm sure there are plenty of girls who saw themselves, you know, the ones who were rule followers at school They probably saw themselves in Sakura when Sakura
Josué (38:48)
Yeah.
Rae Hoover (38:49)
was a kid.
Josué (38:49)
I do think there is something about even if, cause like the decision has been made. The mangaka is making a show for boys where it stars
Rae Hoover (38:58)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (38:58)
a boy, right? He doesn't have to have a strong female character in there.
Rae Hoover (39:03)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (39:03)
I think it's cool that she is the strongest physical character, right? Like I think it is, she is the best at many different things that the boys aren't.
Rae Hoover (39:13)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (39:14)
And they do all balance each other. Like it does create that team dynamic.
Rae Hoover (39:18)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Josué (39:18)
of like we all have a role to play. And
in fact, like we were put together because our teachers thought that we could compliment each other well
Rae Hoover (39:26)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (39:26)
and we would make a good team. So to that point, something I learned about.
We always talk about the same shows. So here's a mobile suit Gundam thing Most
Rae Hoover (39:36)
Yeah.
Josué (39:39)
of Gundam comes out in 1979. We've
Rae Hoover (39:40)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (39:41)
talked about the beginning It's pretty serious show The
Rae Hoover (39:44)
Yeah.
Josué (39:45)
in that first episode Frau her family's I killed right in front of her, right?
Rae Hoover (39:51)
Yeah.
Josué (39:51)
The main the protagonist of the show is Amuro. He's a young teenage boy. He has like his friend Frau who's a neighbor But once they're that
all these civilians are put into this situation where they have to operate this ship. There's one woman who becomes the pilot because she's the most, she has the closest training that they need. Right. And at no point it's like, you're a girl, you can't be a pilot. It was very like, shit, you can, you can fly.
You can fly any vehicle, a vehicle, then can you fly this vehicle? Right? It's
Rae Hoover (40:29)
Yeah.
Josué (40:30)
like, well, I guess it has to be me, you know? And then
Rae Hoover (40:32)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (40:32)
she becomes the pilot. And the women in the show have, none of them are like damsels in distress, really.
Rae Hoover (40:40)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (40:41)
They need to get in the robot, they get in the robot. They
Rae Hoover (40:43)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (40:43)
are important characters. And even like the leader of the other faction, like there's a woman there too. So like they're strong female characters throughout the show. Apparently.
When the show came off the air, I believe, or during or while the show was on the air, there was a movement of female fans who really liked the show,
Rae Hoover (41:10)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (41:10)
who started going to the offices where they, the sunrise offices where they made the show
Rae Hoover (41:16)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (41:17)
and would like just leave a whole bunch of like fan letters and
and they would make things for the creators of the show. And they recognize like, like the female audience, there is a female audience for this.
Rae Hoover (41:37)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (41:38)
now this part I don't know that this is why, but in the
Rae Hoover (41:41)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (41:41)
sequel show, there are more female pilots than there are male pilots, I'm pretty sure.
Yeah, and the stupidest character is the main character, right?
Rae Hoover (41:53)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (41:54)
And the women are constantly like, what are you talking about? What are you doing? They are as capable, they're better voices of reason, they are important to the show.
Rae Hoover (42:03)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (42:04)
Another leader of a faction is a female character who later goes on to lead the third. Gundam has always been good with that,
Rae Hoover (42:13)
Yeah.
Josué (42:13)
Actually, a funny thing about the second Gundam show is that the main character is a boy and his name is Kamille.
Rae Hoover (42:21)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (42:21)
And then at the beginning of the show, another guy tells him, Kamille, what is that, a girl's name?
Rae Hoover (42:28)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (42:28)
And then he comes back and he's like, I'm not a girl. And there are memes about this because even in the show, he's like, I'm not a girl. I'm not a girl. Like echoes.
Rae Hoover (42:41)
Yeah.
Josué (42:42)
And
then like slow motion, he goes and like punches the guy who said he's got a girl's name in the face. Like he's so offended by that. And
Rae Hoover (42:48)
Yeah.
Josué (42:49)
then, but in the show, like he's surrounded by women and women are like constantly, it's just, they're great. There's like tons of pilots and there's never, there's never really a discussion or like maybe because it's set in the future. I think
Rae Hoover (43:02)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (43:03)
Star Trek did this too, right? Where it's like, we're not even having that conversation anymore. What do mean?
Rae Hoover (43:08)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (43:10)
you're a girl you don't get it it's like no then not in the future we're past that
Rae Hoover (43:16)
Yeah. It's like,
you you know, you're a girl, you don't get it. It's like, No, you address me as admiral
Josué (43:23)
right exactly it's captain janeway
Rae Hoover (43:26)
Yeah, exactly.
so when we were touching on like the the healer thing, that trope for for women and female characters specifically, not really anime kind could be argued as anime, but my mind went to Avatar, Avatar the Last Airbender, because that's a big plot point for Katara specifically. Yeah, she gets to the North Pole
Josué (43:48)
It sure is.
Rae Hoover (43:50)
and they're like, Nope, women only heal.
And you can't
Josué (43:54)
Yeah.
Rae Hoover (43:54)
fight and she's specifically like, I want to be a fighter.
Train me, I'm literally better than you.
Josué (44:04)
She does do a lot of healing later in Korra.
Rae Hoover (44:06)
Yeah.
Josué (44:09)
Yeah, but it is true that you address that specifically because that water tribe is not okay with
Rae Hoover (44:17)
Yeah.
Josué (44:18)
women fighters.
Rae Hoover (44:19)
Yeah.
And like Katara eventually does get trained and the tradition does change, the rule does change. It's kind of unsatisfying though because Master Paku, he I don't know, he remembered women are people and because he was in love with the woman who eventually became Katara's grandmother.
She was from the Northern Tribe and she didn't want to marry him. It was an arranged marriage, and she left for the Southern tribe. And then Katara comes back wearing her mother's necklace, which apparently was her grandmother's betrothal necklace. He recognizes it, and then has a moment of just going, yeah, wow, that that was the love of my life there. Okay, I guess women can be trained now. And I'm like, y come on.
Josué (45:08)
Yeah.
Rae Hoover (45:09)
Yeah, it's a little yikes.
Josué (45:12)
gonna bring something up
Rae Hoover (45:13)
Yeah.
Josué (45:14)
that I thought of which is and Avatar is actually a perfect example of this because this happens both ways right depending it depends a lot on the writers and who's
Rae Hoover (45:27)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (45:27)
writing the show so but I don't like that Katara ends up with Aang I
Rae Hoover (45:37)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (45:37)
don't like it I don't like it at all
Rae Hoover (45:39)
I yeah,
I'm I'm currently doing a rewatch and it's so deeply uncomfortable for how maternal
Josué (45:44)
Yeah.
Rae Hoover (45:45)
she is towards Aang specifically. I'm like, girl, how do you find that attractive? Like, please, no.
Josué (45:51)
Right. And so the writers, and I understand, again.
If gay, you may be writing a gay romance. If you're straight, you're writing a straight romance, right? There's this fantasy element of, the main character has a love interest, and
Rae Hoover (46:05)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (46:06)
the fantasy is that they love them back, that it's reciprocal, right?
Rae Hoover (46:09)
Yeah.
Josué (46:10)
I don't like that. I don't think it should be, right? So like, Naruto does a really good job of like, Naruto is like crushing on Sakura. Sakura does not want any part of that, and
Rae Hoover (46:22)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (46:22)
it never...
comes close, right?
Rae Hoover (46:25)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (46:26)
Avatar is one of those where like Aang really likes Katara and somehow by the end they end up together, right? It's very
Rae Hoover (46:30)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (46:31)
much that fantasy. This is a trope that happens in a lot of fiction, right?
Rae Hoover (46:35)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (46:35)
There's an object of affection, right? Of the opposite sex or just an object of affection period, right? And then depending
Rae Hoover (46:42)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (46:43)
on who's writing it, that person, the main character gets the girl
Rae Hoover (46:48)
Yeah.
Josué (46:48)
or the girl gets the guy or the guy gets the guy. You get the person and
Rae Hoover (46:52)
Yeah.
Josué (46:53)
it is...
It is a trope, right? It is something
Rae Hoover (46:56)
Yeah.
Josué (46:56)
that happens a lot. And so in this case, like in this context, that sure that happens in anime also.
Rae Hoover (47:04)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (47:05)
And, but it is just that, right? Like I don't, at least when I started seeing it that way as, right, this is wish fulfillment. This is fantasy. They're
Rae Hoover (47:17)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (47:18)
just like you wish you could become more powerful and defeat the bad guy. There's also a wish fulfillment of
you know, that person you've been crushing on for years that they like you back, right?
Rae Hoover (47:28)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Josué (47:31)
I think some shows handle it better than others. I think the best way to handle it is not to do it at all most of the time,
Rae Hoover (47:37)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (47:38)
I'm, but romantisy and romance is a whole genre of itself and
Rae Hoover (47:43)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (47:43)
people love that. But in the Avatar one, I don't like it. I don't like it at all. Yeah. Yeah.
Rae Hoover (47:50)
Yeah, yeah,
that's one I'm like that pairing doesn't do it for me.
Josué (47:54)
the way like to build up to that. And again, like they're kissing at the end of the show when they're kids. Like
Rae Hoover (48:00)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (48:01)
I'm okay with them ending up together later on, but not not at book three. No, not baby Aang.
Rae Hoover (48:05)
No. No. Like Yeah.
Josué (48:10)
No, no, no.
Rae Hoover (48:12)
Like Katara,
you need to you need to like unlearn some of your parentification first, please. Like please girl.
Josué (48:18)
again, that is a trope. It is something.
Even the strongest of female characters will fall to that wish fulfillment piece.
Rae Hoover (48:23)
Yeah, yeah.
Josué (48:25)
Yeah. Okay, so that's one. Again, Katara is a cool character.
Rae Hoover (48:28)
Katara is a great
character and the fact that she is maternal and motherly is not inherently a bad thing. I personally find it weird when it's someone she has been maternal towards that's supposed to be the love interest there. that
Josué (48:42)
No.
Rae Hoover (48:42)
that feels kind of kind of off to me.
Josué (48:44)
And going back to the trope of the healer,
Rae Hoover (48:46)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (48:47)
they do like, they lean into it hard.
Rae Hoover (48:50)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (48:50)
Are there any male healers that we ever see on the show?
her grandma was the one teaching her, and then only the women were healers at the other, you know, at the pole.
Rae Hoover (49:00)
her grandmother didn't teach her she started healing by accident when Aang burned her hands.
Josué (49:09)
But her grandmother was a healer though, right? no.
Rae Hoover (49:11)
I that I don't know. I don't think s I don't think she was a bender.
Josué (49:16)
I don't remember either. I just saw
Rae Hoover (49:17)
Yeah.
Josué (49:18)
the new movie, but it's been a while since I watched the show.
Rae Hoover (49:22)
Yeah, yeah. Katara was the only water bender in the village
Josué (49:25)
she was. okay. Okay.
Rae Hoover (49:26)
Yeah, yeah, 'cause her mother
lied to the Fire Nation officer and was like, I'm the last waterbender here to protect Katara.
Josué (49:33)
right, right, right, right, right,
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, again, it goes into that trope. think in Star Trek, the doctor is usually a guy. It's
Rae Hoover (49:44)
Yeah.
Josué (49:44)
usually a male doctor.
Not Troi, Troi I guess counts as a doctor. no, no, no,
Rae Hoover (49:52)
No, she's a counsellor and I mean that's a h
Josué (49:54)
what am I saying? No, in the next generation, the doctor is
Rae Hoover (49:56)
Beverly.
Josué (49:57)
a woman. I'm wrong, I'm wrong. They're pretty balanced.
Rae Hoover (49:59)
Yeah.
Josué (50:01)
They went back and forth. They went back and forth. Yeah. McCoy
Rae Hoover (50:03)
Yeah, yeah. All
Josué (50:06)
and then Beverly and then there's the robot. There's the Bashir and
Rae Hoover (50:11)
it's b yeah, Bashir in D S nine.
Josué (50:13)
in DS9 and in Voyager it was the doctor. Yeah,
Rae Hoover (50:15)
The Doctor.
Josué (50:17)
Yeah. But like, I think it's cool if you show a balance, right?
Rae Hoover (50:21)
Yeah.
Josué (50:22)
and I think, yeah, well, is there any any other anime, female, strong female characters that you wanted to bring?
Rae Hoover (50:34)
the only other ones that I thought of were from Super, which I haven't personally seen, but you you started talking about them a little bit earlier, like the the Saiyan women. I think it's
Josué (50:42)
Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Think of a vegetable.
Rae Hoover (50:50)
Yeah, it's I know the vegetables are kale and cauliflower. I think it's what Khalifa and is it is it just pronounced kale? Okay. Yes. Tell me of of their tales.
Josué (50:56)
I think it was Kale. think so. Yeah. Yeah. She's like the Broly. Yeah.
Pretty much that like there's a legendary super saiyan in our universe called Broly. And which is a broccoli thing apparently.
Rae Hoover (51:14)
yeah, okay, that makes sense.
Josué (51:16)
And he, it's so funny. I never connected that.
Rae Hoover (51:21)
Never caught it. my god, you're right.
Josué (51:22)
And he goes green, actually. No, I can't
unsee it. what a good show. They do that stupid stuff in your face, and I still love it, and I don't even think about it. It's not even weird to me.
Rae Hoover (51:37)
Yeah.
Josué (51:37)
so he's super strong. they meet the version of her in that universe, and one of them is Kale.
It's more of a Saiyan thing in general, where it just so happens that these are the strongest Saiyans, but really the story in Super is that Saiyans in any universe are always able to go plus ultra basically.
Rae Hoover (52:01)
Yeah.
Josué (52:02)
It's like they're able to meet the demands of the moment, they're able to surpass their limits when necessary, and then the Super Saiyans from our world are able to teach them how to do it, and they didn't know, but they've been training and they're so strong.
mean, technically, so those characters are among the seven strongest or the 10 strongest fighters in their entire universe. So they are very strong.
Rae Hoover (52:23)
Mm. Hell yeah.
Josué (52:26)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they and they're participating in the tournament of power. They're not there to support their husbands. They're not there to, you know, to cheer on their kids. They're not there to help with anything. They are two of the 10 warriors representing that planet of that that
Rae Hoover (52:42)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (52:42)
universe. So they're super strong. Yeah.
Yeah, but they don't really, I think the whole tournament takes place over the course of an hour, even though it's like 60 episodes. So there's a lot of, there isn't a lot of character development for some of those characters. Yeah,
Rae Hoover (52:59)
damn. That's disappointing.
Josué (53:02)
yeah, yeah, Cool characters, but they very much lean, there's never, I don't think even Vegeta mentions anything of like, you're a female Saiyan, like, go no, it's like, you're a Saiyan, like.
Rae Hoover (53:15)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (53:17)
What are you doing? I just kicked your ass. Get back up. Cause you're a Saiyan. I think it's
Rae Hoover (53:20)
Yeah. Yeah.
Josué (53:22)
more like that. It's like, it's like, but I think if I remember correctly, Vegeta's like, I don't care that you're a girl, pow.
Rae Hoover (53:28)
Yeah.
Josué (53:30)
Here's a, here's a, yeah, I just knocked you out. But because you're a Saiyan, I'm going to let you get back up
Rae Hoover (53:36)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (53:37)
because you should be getting stronger after every fight. Yeah.
Rae Hoover (53:39)
Mm. So
it's it's more of like Game C's game and like not seeing gender per se, but seeing just the spirit of a warrior.
Josué (53:46)
Mm hmm. Yep. Yep. Yep.
Rae Hoover (53:48)
It's kind
of what Bakugo did in the tournament fight against Uraraka
And it's like he's not holding back because he knows that she can take it.
Josué (53:57)
Yeah.
My hero
Rae Hoover (53:59)
That yeah, that there's a reason I haven't mentioned
my hero.
Josué (54:02)
The female characters are not,
Rae Hoover (54:05)
They have potential.
Josué (54:06)
because the examples I've given, right, or mostly the examples we've given, both of us, have been like.
They're playing a very important role and they do excel at something, right? I don't think my hero does that with any of the female characters. They are definitely
Rae Hoover (54:19)
Unfortunately not really.
Josué (54:21)
relegated to like, they're most likely also literally even ranked way below the protagonist, right?
Rae Hoover (54:28)
Yeah.
Josué (54:29)
Because none of them are as strong and none of their abilities, even when they are super helpful.
They're not seen as, yeah, don't, there's none. I can't even think of an example. Like even when they save the day because their power is the only one they can like solve the problem, it's not, it's not recognized that way. It's very supportive,
Rae Hoover (54:48)
Yeah, it's really unfortunate.
Josué (54:51)
yeah.
Rae Hoover (54:51)
Yeah. Mirko's really the only one she's feral on her own. And then she gets absolutely butchered.
Josué (54:58)
Yeah, my hero, not a good, yeah, I can't think of.
Rae Hoover (55:01)
Yeah. Could could definitely
use some better treated characters there.
Josué (55:06)
Even what's her name? Even the girl with the horn.
Rae Hoover (55:09)
Eri?
Josué (55:11)
Eri. even Eri is relegated to a power up mushroom basically.
Rae Hoover (55:15)
Yeah. Yeah, but then she doesn't do anything else really.
Josué (55:20)
If you stay close enough to me, I will power up. Thank you. Yeah. Man, I Stop revisiting my hero with me. I thought
Rae Hoover (55:29)
We need to
Josué (55:30)
so highly of it. And every time we talk about it, it goes down a notch for me.
Rae Hoover (55:36)
We need to
stick to the three shows we always talk about and it's not my hero. It's just
Josué (55:41)
I don't
want to reflect on that show ever again because I want to remember it fondly. need like five years away from it. So
Rae Hoover (55:48)
Very illegal to talk about now.
Josué (55:53)
I need like the Naruto effect where now I'm like, Sakura is great.
Rae Hoover (55:58)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (55:58)
Even though I, the more I talk about her now, I think I'm pretty sure there was a time when I couldn't stand her.
Rae Hoover (56:05)
Yeah.
Josué (56:05)
Again, young Sakura. Very young Sakura.
Rae Hoover (56:09)
Kids are
going to be annoying, it's a thing.
Josué (56:11)
Yeah, time skips are amazing.
Rae Hoover (56:14)
yes.
Josué (56:15)
They're a great thing. People change. Kids grow up a little bit.
Rae Hoover (56:21)
People grow. Yeah.
Josué (56:23)
I hope you get to watch Naruto, that your first real taste of Naruto is not the live action movie. Coming in two years.
Rae Hoover (56:29)
Lord, no. I will go
out of my way to like find it before before that. Like I will
Josué (56:36)
Yeah.
Rae Hoover (56:36)
not want to see the live action first. I can promise you that.
Josué (56:40)
funny. You know that there's a live action Mobile Suit Gundam
Rae Hoover (56:45)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (56:45)
that's coming out next year. His finished production. And the way that media outlets have talked about the movie is they refer to it as the Sydney Sweeney led Mobile Suit Gundam. And I'm like, come
Rae Hoover (57:00)
Mm.
Josué (57:01)
on. Why? Why is that? Now I'm bringing it up because
there is potential for her to be playing a really cool character because Mobosu Gundam has great female characters, in my
Rae Hoover (57:14)
Yeah.
Josué (57:14)
opinion. This, not all of the universes, but this one in particular, the Universal Century original timeline, I think is great. But
Rae Hoover (57:24)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (57:25)
I recently saw an interview with someone who was trying to like skirt the question about like if he was a good guy or a bad guy. And he basically said that the two stars of the movie, Sidney Sweeney and Noah Centineo,
They play opposite, they're on opposite sides.
Rae Hoover (57:39)
Yeah.
Josué (57:40)
And like, I can't imagine them casting Noah Centineo as a bad guy. So I'm assuming that he'll be the good guy, which means that Sidney Sweeney is the villain. And then that I'm
Rae Hoover (57:49)
Interesting.
Josué (57:49)
okay with. I feel way better about it. I just don't want her to be like them. Her being the hero makes me, it, makes it, just makes sense to me. I don't like it. But if she's the villain, I'm okay. I'm okay with it.
Rae Hoover (57:58)
Yeah that's kinda That's different Yeah that that
feels right
Josué (58:07)
Yeah, and I get they're using her name because she's like the biggest
Rae Hoover (58:10)
Yes.
Josué (58:11)
of the name among the protagonists, but yeah.
Rae Hoover (58:17)
Gross.
Josué (58:19)
Yeah.
Rae Hoover (58:20)
A little bit.
Josué (58:22)
Okay, any other examples you wanted to bring up or?
Rae Hoover (58:24)
It's hard not to just like default to Avatar because that's very much what I'm into right now. Toph, I feel like needs at least a an honorable mention as well for being a strong female character. I mean, the a lot of the women in in Avatar are very well written in that way. In Korra, despite all the hate she gets, like Korra is phenomenal. I love Asami.
Josué (58:49)
What do you think of Toph
in the sense that she's written like a tomboy? That that's like part of her character. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rae Hoover (58:54)
I I am a tomboy still, like I I love
Toph. Like she is she is me for real. I like she has always been my favorite. She was the the thing that like the character that got me invested that I had heard about and I was like, where is she? I need to see her. Yeah,
Josué (59:11)
was fun for sure. Yeah.
Rae Hoover (59:13)
yeah. Like she's complicated. She has a complicated relationship with femininity.
I don't think she necessarily hates it. I think she hates being assumed to be weak more than anything.
Josué (59:25)
Yeah. I mean, I like the fact that her character is like, she's imposed to be a princess type character. She's like, nope, not me.
Rae Hoover (59:33)
Mm-hmm.
she's being treated by her parents as helpless and weak because she has a disability, and she is like absolutely not. I am the strongest, I am the greatest of all time. And none
Josué (59:44)
Yep. Yep.
Rae Hoover (59:45)
of this will ever stop me.
Josué (59:46)
still the greatest earthbender.
Rae Hoover (59:49)
Absolutely.
Josué (59:51)
I don't think I have any other examples that I thought of throughout the week. I think I brought up all the ones. Yeah, we just brought up the same shows we always do.
Rae Hoover (1:00:01)
As as usual, we really should just call this the
one piece Gundam and Dragon Ball Show.
Josué (1:00:08)
Yep. We didn't talk about something like Sailor Moon. We've talked about that before.
Rae Hoover (1:00:13)
We didn't Yeah.
Josué (1:00:16)
For the record, Sailor Moon could take Goku.
Rae Hoover (1:00:19)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (1:00:20)
She is more powerful in every, she just has the power. It's written. She can go, her cosmic version can just, once you start rewriting reality, you can't really fight against that.
Rae Hoover (1:00:35)
Yeah.
Josué (1:00:35)
So.
Yeah, but that,
Rae Hoover (1:00:37)
Excellent.
Josué (1:00:38)
yeah, but that to me, I don't know if you see it this way. I'm curious if you see it this way. But to me, a male character like a. Which I don't remember these movies,
Rae Hoover (1:00:51)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (1:00:52)
right, so I'm going to bring them up as like more of like a catch all,
Rae Hoover (1:00:58)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (1:00:58)
but like a Conan the barbarian where the character is like,
huge muscles, no character development, just like fighter beats stuff up. The Hercules characters from the movies just like, I come in, I punch stuff and I win. To me, that is Sailor Moon from,
Rae Hoover (1:01:18)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (1:01:21)
right? It's like, you're taking the most stereotypical male fantasy or you're taking the most stereotypical like female fantasy, where
Rae Hoover (1:01:32)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (1:01:32)
again, Sailor Moon takes them all to the extreme.
Even I'm a teenage girl and a college guy is in love with me, right? I know, I know we've talked about this, right? But that's like, that's the wish fulfillment. It's the fantasy piece, right?
Rae Hoover (1:01:43)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Josué (1:01:46)
It just takes it all. And it just, it's just, it's just that wins.
Rae Hoover (1:01:52)
Yeah.
Josué (1:01:56)
She's got the high heels and she's got like the impossible body and she's blonde
Rae Hoover (1:01:59)
Oops all legs.
Josué (1:02:00)
All this stuff, right? And then, right? You've got the big, muscles and all the stuff. it's like, boom, I can punch my problems away. She can, you know, wave a baton or something and say with the power of love. And then it goes away. So like, I don't think those are good representations of like strong female characters. Yeah.
Rae Hoover (1:02:14)
Pretty much. That's that's true. That's really true, yeah.
Josué (1:02:20)
Yeah. That's, that's the way see it. Again, not, not, I will not speak for anybody else.
I'm sure the character and maybe some of her stories are inspirational to some people, but I wouldn't put them forward as a, like, yeah, again, the character growth isn't there and like the development that it is really stereotypes when.
Rae Hoover (1:02:39)
Yeah. The Sailor Moon is one of those animes that and I feel this way about a lot of different shows, that the protagonist is the least interesting person. Like I feel like that about a lot of different animes, especially the shonens, that Luffy kind of being the exception there. I but like he's the just the the the protagonist is the least interesting one. Sailor Moon a hundred percent is that. I care
Very little about Usagi. I care everything about the other scouts. I especially the outers. I am here for the outers. They are some of the coolest people ever.
Josué (1:03:13)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rae Hoover (1:03:15)
Yeah, you're right. she's kind of one note. she's either kind of a a mess or she pulls it together and saves the universe somehow. And then it's not really growth. I don't know. It's a whole thing.
Josué (1:03:29)
Yeah, I like Sailor Moon. I love me a transformation sequence. I love the power of love. I'm
Rae Hoover (1:03:33)
Hell yeah. Yeah.
Josué (1:03:36)
all for that. I love the camp. I love everything. I really like more about it than probably a lot of other people.
Rae Hoover (1:03:46)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (1:03:47)
But in terms of the topic of this show, I would not, yeah, I don't think it's a good example.
Rae Hoover (1:03:51)
Yeah,
yeah. there's definitely better examples out there.
Josué (1:03:54)
Yeah,
I think it's good that we brought up a lot of the characters that like stood out and are
Rae Hoover (1:04:01)
Mm-hmm.
Josué (1:04:01)
like really cool. And if you have a client or you're looking for a motivating or inspiring,
character, a strong, positive representation. I think we've brought up a whole bunch of good characters. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rae Hoover (1:04:16)
Mm. Yeah.
Josué (1:04:19)
Cool.
Rae Hoover (1:04:20)
Absolutely.
Josué (1:04:22)
All right, any other closing thoughts?
Rae Hoover (1:04:24)
Nah.
Josué (1:04:25)
Okay, well thank you for joining us for this conversation. on Otaku Ryoho. For more Geek Therapy and more shows on the Geek Therapy Network, visit geektherapy.org. Remember to geek out at the good and we'll be back someday soon.
Rae Hoover (1:04:42)
Eventually. All
right, toodles.