Rivals is HURTING, NetEase is SILENT and BUFF BLADE ft kpxchris & ApexDabi

In this episode we sit down with KPXChris and ApexDabi to talk about the state of Marvel Rivals

What is Clear Comms Podcast?

A Marvel Rivals Podcast hosted by Coach Mills and CaptainCoach, two creator and educators for Marvel Rivals. We discuss all things Rivals including META, balance and the future of development. We will often debate controversial topics that surround the game and plan to bring on many exciting guests from pros to devs!!!

Coach Mills (00:00.643)
What's up, everybody, and welcome to a brand new ClearComms episode. I think once again we are at a turning point in Marvel Rivals where more creators, players, pros alike are all frustrated with the state of the game and most importantly, the state of Neti's as a company addressing the concerns of the people. So we brought on two special guests to talk about these exact pain points. First off, returning guest Apex Dobby. Welcome back to the pod. Thank you so much for coming back.

ApexDabi (00:27.992)
Thank you for having me.

Coach Mills (00:29.335)
Of course, of course, anytime. And first time on, Blade Extraordinaire, new guest on the pod. KPX Chris, thank you so much for making some time for us, man.

KPXCHRIS (00:39.163)
Course. Thank you for having me.

CaptainCoach (00:39.185)
Let's go. Excited to have you guys on, man. We got the the stallions i in the house. Happy to have you back on, Dobby, man. Last time one of my fet my fellow EOMM conspiracy theorists. I don't think it's so much of a conspiracy anymore. But I I I just want to say, like before it you know, the general consensus was okay, this is all just kind of ridiculous talk. But then I started doing some research and

ApexDabi (00:47.702)
Yeah, yep, appreciate that.

ApexDabi (00:53.492)
I will die on that hill. I will die on that hill. You can't convince me otherwise.

ApexDabi (01:05.176)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:06.713)
A lot of like my content on X and stuff was starting to post about that. I looked up some of the things you said and I I I was not gonna go this episode without bringing it up. We're gonna right off the bat, dude. No, but I I wanna just kick it off with you guys because Chris, you said you're quitting the game right now. Or is that is that the plan?

Coach Mills (01:14.316)
Ha ha ha.

ApexDabi (01:15.65)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:25.141)
yeah, not quitting, but taking the break, pretty much. Yeah. I mean, there's no reason for me to continue playing it for real 'cause, you know, Blade is still not the best character. I've been loading up and just playing Blade and, you know, having to work thirty times harder than all the other DPS, getting no value and still getting no respect 'cause you get to high Elo, everyone's like, can you swap Blade? Can you swap Blade? Like it it just gets to a point after a year of being in the game and playing it nonstop and I'm just tired of hearing it.

CaptainCoach (01:27.611)
Taking a break. Okay.

CaptainCoach (01:51.929)
Right. So go ahead.

Coach Mills (01:51.972)
Yeah, we yeah, yeah. I I've I've been wanting to have KPX on for a long time because, you know, there's not that many players that are committed to Blade like you. Like most of them, it's like they want to take the game seriously, which you do. You want to climb high, you like you wanna be known. But it's like the character is so hard to make work. And it's like no matter what they've done to the character, they haven't been able to make that character meta. So I want to ask it to you, do do you think that they

KPXCHRIS (02:01.764)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:17.901)
Don't know what they're doing with Blade? Do you think they're intentionally keeping him weak? Like why do you think exactly they're, you know, not really addressing Blade as like this like kind of mid-level character?

KPXCHRIS (02:28.976)
And trust me, like I I've been trying, you know. If you guys have probably seen the Blade Funeral, that that was like the thing that made it to the patch notes and stuff like that. So I, you know, people always know me as like, the KPX Chris, he just complains about blade. But, you know, I've been trying my hardest to get the devs to buff him where he actually needs to get buffed. for instance, like his gun is like one of the worst guns in the game. It's laggy, it's buggy. and then also his ult gets like little to no value because most of it just walks out, or most people just walk out.

ApexDabi (02:34.51)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (02:58.766)
Like there was just so many built-in downsides to Blade's kit that I've been trying to be vocal and articulate about that the devs just don't really listen to me. For instance, like his base sword form without vampire mode is useless. and you know, he also anti-heals himself when he presses his E when he goes in vampire mode, which messes up your team's heal economy. So you actually mess up your supports from getting the ult faster than enemy support. So you're you're nerfing your whole team by playing Blade. So yeah, like what? He doesn't poke well.

CaptainCoach (03:20.485)
Mm.

KPXCHRIS (03:28.698)
He doesn't brawl well because he gets CC'd to death in two seconds because he has to stack up to 10 stacks. he doesn't really dive well because, you know, he doesn't have that burst damage to really, you know, ISO supports and stuff like that. So like he's kind of a master of of nothing, right? Like he has a little bit of everything, but he doesn't really excel. and the one mechanic that he was supposed to excel in, they gave it to half the roster, right? Anti-Hill, they gave it to Gambit, they gave it to Venom, they gave it to Namor, they gave it to Phoenix, right?

ApexDabi (03:44.653)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (03:57.061)
Like that was Blade's thing, you know? Like they said they said, we we have to have Blade be weak because of his new anti heel mechanic. Whole time people just ignore that and it's barely like a a like a slap on the wrist and 'cause the heels are so strong in this game.

CaptainCoach (03:57.106)
ApexDabi (03:58.443)
Yeah, yeah.

ApexDabi (04:06.167)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (04:06.509)
Right.

ApexDabi (04:09.57)
And she gets a stun too, so she just gets to do what he does but just stun locks you right after.

KPXCHRIS (04:12.238)
Yeah. Phoenix, Phoenix gets to sit all the way in the back and ATO the whole team and have no risk. But Blade, they nerfed it to where you have to be in your sword. And they also nerfed it because it was 40%. Originally it was 40% on your gun dash, right? And then they reworked them after the the I think it was before the funeral, but it was sometime they reworked them and they changed it to his his sword and they nerfed the percentage from 40 to 32.

ApexDabi (04:23.191)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (04:39.624)
And they also change it to where you can miss a a slash on your sword and not even get the full anti heel off. You can but you can also like mix it up. So you can do like ten percent on one person if you turn your mouse fast enough to get ten percent on another person. But either way they nerfed the anti heal.

CaptainCoach (04:53.809)
I I like how the Blade funeral is a canon event in the community. We reference the changes either before or or after. Blade obviously being the w the recipients of probably the most buff. I think buffs close to twenty, I think. I mean you probably know the exact amount. I I actually pr don't have those num it's it's it's I think it's like getting close to he's received about twenty buffs or so. maybe we could get the numbers up. But do you think that one

Coach Mills (04:58.147)
Ha ha ha

KPXCHRIS (04:58.737)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (05:08.186)
Yeah. Nah, not the exact, but

KPXCHRIS (05:16.26)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (05:22.275)
A game like Marvel Rivals should basically have this system in place where people want to log on and play their favorite hero and then you they get to a certain rank and and you're basically told, like, sorry, just swap to something else. Like that does that really fit with the type of game that this is trying to be? Because in my opinion, it seems like they're trying to make Blades strong, but it's just

You look at a a character like Thing, they slap one buff to his main attack, give him shield, and all of a sudden he's hard meta. Like, where is that for blade? Right? Like where like

KPXCHRIS (05:53.723)
That's yeah. I I don't know. I think the the way to buff Blade would also to be to change his gun and that would give him more skill expression because a lot of people in low Elo, they just go sword mode and just run down people and they don't shoot the blade and sword mode kind of just farms low elo. but in my opinion, and balancing the game and having everyone's favorite hero be good. I mean, you there's a cycle, right? Like, you know, and they've obviously ignored that cycle with certain characters being OP for 10 seasons straight. And you know.

Coach Mills (06:21.241)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (06:21.819)
Right.

KPXCHRIS (06:23.256)
other characters being bad for ten seasons straight. But they're they're starting to get better. especially with the Wanda changes, the widow changes, the thing changes. Some of these like low tier characters that have been historically bad for a very long time are starting to get their time in the sunlight. So hopefully Blade is up next. I don't know, but until then, yeah, I'm kind of just kinda stepping away from the game for a little bit.

CaptainCoach (06:43.033)
Okay, I I I I kind of wanted to go down that that road a little bit and and open it up to Dobby as well. We've obviously talked about skins quite a bit with the game and how a lot of characters tend to get buffed when their skins get good. And you know, there's a financial incentive to heroes being strong when there's something to gain financially. Do you think the same is true for balance for heroes?

ApexDabi (07:05.548)
Absolutely. I mean, okay. For all of us, I don't know if you guys have played Overwatch, but I spent a good amount of time on Overwatch. I know. There's there's there's one character specifically that everybody knows that has historically just been getting just absolutely cooked, and that's the big man with the hammer. But anytime he gets a collab skin, for some reason they just

Coach Mills (07:12.428)
you said the words. they're the comments are fucking triggered. They're tilted. Yeah, y it's all right.

ApexDabi (07:31.565)
Buff him into oblivion and he's just an insta pick every single rank game. And the moment you know sales are done and everyone's like, my god, the Transformers, Reinhart, right shortly after that, not even like the full season, patched it. The moment everybody got the skin and they saw the sales, it happens every single season, every single character goes through it. I would I do want to bounce back to what KPX Chris was saying. There are cycles

Coach Mills (07:33.933)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (08:01.09)
But I I have a different take on it. I think certain characters that have very low skill expression. I'm not talking about Blade, okay, before they come after me. I'm not talking about Blade. I'm talking about like c like characters like Wanda. If if there's a really low amount of skill expression and it's like low risk and high reward, I think characters like that should never dominate in high ELO. I think they should be permanently in low ELO. Like if you are Yeah, yeah, like.

Coach Mills (08:26.701)
Mean like Dino thing, Bucky, Elsa. Or maybe not Elsa.

CaptainCoach (08:28.721)
Mm-hmm.

ApexDabi (08:29.984)
Like thing I don't know if you guys saw the Tato video, but like he put up pro play and then a silver two and I genuinely couldn't tell the difference. Cause it's the exact same care Like they were doing the exact same thing. There's no skill expression at the end of the day. So I think certain characters that just don't they have really low risk and just extremely high reward, they don't need to be meta. Like

Coach Mills (08:39.904)
Ha ha ha ha.

ApexDabi (08:55.202)
They th it's okay for them to hang out from bronze to like gym that's all right. Certain characters need to exist just for those metal ranks and that's okay. We don't have to make every easy character just you know, mega broken so that we can it's you know, it's viable in high ELO. 'Cause then that becomes toxic.

KPXCHRIS (09:06.222)
Yeah, you know.

KPXCHRIS (09:10.724)
Well, well how do you how do you reconcile that with the popularity of the Marvel IP though? Right? Like if somebody's favorite character is like Iron Man and they get on rivals and get disappointed 'cause Iron Man is not good and he's terrible across all ranks, do you think that there needs to be like a difference with like I I understand what you're saying, 'cause like, you know

ApexDabi (09:19.949)
Hm.

Yeah.

CaptainCoach (09:28.338)
It's fun.

KPXCHRIS (09:34.364)
low elo characters and high elo just it's the same gameplay mechanic. But in terms of like player satisfaction, do you think that should be taken into account in terms of balance as well?

ApexDabi (09:38.498)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (09:44.559)
not really. Cause it's like you're not gonna make everybody happy. Like think about Marvel as an IP has about three thousand characters to pull from. That's that's a lot of people to try to make happy. Like y let's just give it benefit of the doubt. Let's let's say we get to a hundred characters, right? That's a hundred different characters that they would have to make viable at high ELO. That's it's just not possible. It's

KPXCHRIS (10:10.404)
Well, I'm saying that's why that's why I said there's a cycle, right? Like that's why the meta is supposed to change with hot fix changes and

ApexDabi (10:13.303)
Yeah, but like

Even if the cycle is like that, then that means the base kit has to change. Cause I don't want like I for one of the reasons why Wanda I think is just low skill and high reward is her ultimate. Like they want her ultimate to be viable so bad, but something that can wipe an entire team by just hitting a button and then like that's it, you just kind of gravitate towards them, she sucks you in. Everyone's like, well, maybe let's add an RNG aspect to it. And then they added the RNG and look how the community responded.

Like I ha had it happen to me. I tried to grab her twice and I was like, twice? I got RNG twice? In the same like that's crazy. So like it

CaptainCoach (10:46.811)
Bro.

KPXCHRIS (10:47.61)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (10:49.873)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (10:52.036)
Yeah. I mean yeah, it's across the board. Like Elsa Ult is also ridiculous, yeah.

ApexDabi (10:57.59)
Yeah, exactly. Like also like hit button, get value. And it's like fundamentally those ultimates need to change. If you want them to be high performing and in high Elo and low Elo, they have to change. 'Cause there has to be a risk to reward it can't just be all reward. You know what I mean?

CaptainCoach (11:15.685)
Right, I I had my first instance of interrupting a Wanda alt and it having having it not go off last night. And and it's just it is just the worst feeling. I wanna go back to Iron Man you mentioned KPX Chris, cause the first thing that popped into my head with Iron Man wasn't what you you would expect it to be. You'd think like, okay, Tony Stark, Avengers in the movie flying around, you know, big epic

ApexDabi (11:21.409)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (11:38.351)
Like z you know, bombs and stuff. And I you said Iron Man and the first thing I thought of was that little meme where that little dance they do in game to troll where they're just like flying in front of people. That that should not be the first thing I think of when someone says Ironman. I'm sure y you know what I'm talking about, right?

ApexDabi (11:46.816)
my god Yeah, yeah yeah.

KPXCHRIS (11:47.94)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (11:48.058)
yeah.

KPXCHRIS (11:52.431)
Nah. Yeah, of course. And then the the when Rivals came out it was so funny 'cause people were posting the Jarvis like Piss Your Pants meme and stuff like that. You guys remember that? When the game first came out? The Jarvis memes, but yeah.

ApexDabi (11:52.814)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

ApexDabi (12:01.986)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

CaptainCoach (12:05.261)
but

ApexDabi (12:06.282)
before I forget, I think if the devs ever see this, I don't know if they will, but one thing to Blade, I never understood why Blade has a cooldown on his block. That is the silliest mech I don't understand why there's a cooldown on it. That does not make sense to me. I n yeah. And I I was like, okay, you're sitting here like trying to tweak the numbers on the damage or the distance and all the the healing, anti healing.

KPXCHRIS (12:18.757)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (12:24.91)
It also removes your crosshair there.

ApexDabi (12:36.162)
Why don't we just remove that and just go like you know what I mean? Like either like increase cooldowns, decrease cooldowns. I feel like they don't take advantage of increasing cooldowns. Like, for example, the C and D mains, your cryo should not be on 20 seconds. That should be treated like a soul bond. That's a 30-second minimum. I think instead of trying to tweak the actual ability and how much it gives and how much it takes away, they need to increase cooldowns so that way cooldowns have impact. You know?

KPXCHRIS (12:40.314)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (13:04.982)
Like I don't wanna dive and then 20 seconds later she's rotated her entire kit and I'm diving again and I'm like bubble phase like it has to be impactful she's gotta be like I don't get that for 35 seconds I can't just cheese it I have to actually reposition myself I have to ask for you know what I mean so stuff like that I think Blade would he would benefit from just cool down like they tweak his cooldowns and remove the

KPXCHRIS (13:16.378)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (13:31.896)
The whole it's just nonsense. And also like that perfect distance having to be like in the middle, like the Goldilocks zone just to do the max. Like that's weird. Like, why?

KPXCHRIS (13:35.716)
Goldilocks zone.

KPXCHRIS (13:39.781)
Just to no, just to get the normal value out of somebody that like, you know, Hella or Elsa can just play normally and just get max value 24-7, no matter what distance they are. Like it he he he's a balanced character in an unbalanced game, right? Because ideally, like Blade in and of itself is very balanced, right? He's he's gonna come up to you, he's gonna get to 10 stacks, and before he gets to 10 stacks, you can CC him and stop him and then kill him in that instance, or you know, he's gonna come up to you and get in the perfect zone to shoot you.

ApexDabi (13:45.559)
Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

ApexDabi (13:57.71)
Mm-hmm.

KPXCHRIS (14:08.356)
But in a game where Elsa exists that has no downsides, you know, you're just never gonna be able to compete, or Hella has no downsides too. She's gonna two tap you from any distance, right? Like, I don't know.

ApexDabi (14:11.63)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (14:18.177)
That's that's really what I wanted to ask about specifically is it feels like they like to do this flavor of the month thing. That's what they've been doing lately, where it's like they cycle between certain top DPS being meta, right? This season it's Black Cat, Gene Gray, Elsa, Hella, Silock, and they kind of just keep fluttering between these ones being like best in slot. Why do you think Blades specifically or other DPS too don't ever get to be cycled into that best in slot? Like

ApexDabi (14:24.406)
Mm.

Coach Mills (14:44.013)
Like they they never even made an attempt to make Blade S tier, even though they have no they they're they they won't make anything else fucking S tier. They'll make any character S tier randomly. Well not Well th they if they if they wanted to really make him S tier, they could. I mean we could give him ninety percent anti-heal, whatever the fuck you want. You could do something crazy. But they haven't It's like it's all it feels like they're afraid of Blade. I don't know how to describe it.

CaptainCoach (14:51.515)
Well they made an attempt. It's it's a plus one here, plus one there.

KPXCHRIS (14:52.046)
The

CaptainCoach (14:58.831)
Right. Hundred percent.

KPXCHRIS (14:59.407)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (14:59.715)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (15:06.988)
It no, it just feels like to be competitively viable, you would have to change his gun and his ult. And I think, you know, just buffing the numbers, it w it would. It absolutely would. Yeah, if he had a better gun, then his neutral would be a lot better. But as it stands now, like like slug rounds, like he shoots like kind of bucky bullets a little bit, but or they could give him an Uzi. I've always said that on stream too, his Uzi from the movies and stuff like that.

Coach Mills (15:15.671)
Would that even matter though? Is that still

Coach Mills (15:22.125)
What like a bucky gun or like what kind of gun specifically?

ApexDabi (15:32.214)
I feel like they should make him dual wield, just give him two pistols.

KPXCHRIS (15:35.109)
That too. Two pistols be cool too. but I mean, they have been buffing low tier DPS, right? Like Torch is in a really good spot right now. All the Torch players who are dedicated, even though he has a super low pick route because he's hard to play. But I don't know if any of you guys have seen Mike's Above You or if he's been on the podcast, but he has like a three hour guide on Torch. And it's like all there's like so many micro techs to that character, which is insane. I I watched thirty minutes of it. I said, Yeah, I'm not playing this character, it's too much.

ApexDabi (15:41.848)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (16:03.629)
Ha ha

ApexDabi (16:04.46)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (16:05.208)
And so you know, Blade used to have all of that. I don't know if you guys are aware. When Blade first released, he had probably like 20 different techs that he could do. And then for some reason, day two of his release on the actual servers, they removed all of it. and that catapulted Blade to D tier on release. that especially with all the the bugs as well. So they removed his tech for no reason. And we still don't know why they did it. but

Coach Mills (16:29.251)
So I I I have a question actually about texts. So so one of the things that at least historically they have shown that they're willing to remove texts of characters. And like what it what we have kind of come to the conclusion about Captain Coach and I is that they intentionally want to keep a more natural skill curve to a character with that like that that a normal player understands. 'Cause like texts add in a knowledge element

KPXCHRIS (16:32.666)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (16:38.426)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (16:47.918)
Mm.

Coach Mills (16:54.317)
That can lead to people misunderstanding how to play the character, right? Like, like, like as an example, let's just say Cap had a tech. Like, he doesn't have this tech. Let's just say he had a tech that does 200 damage out of nowhere if you know the tech. And if you don't know the tech, he does 10 damage per second or something very slow. So anyone that knows the tech, instantly that character's way stronger for them than the average person. It was the same thing with like the torch movement tech. It's it's very similar, like a way to think about it is like with all the pools. Like

KPXCHRIS (17:04.474)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (17:20.474)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (17:20.983)
Most low low rank players have no fucking idea how to level a pool. Like they don't they're they're they're leveling random shit. They're leveling an ult and they're using the other ult and they like they don't know the difference between one or the other. So like I'm not saying it's correct that they do this, but that is why they have done it. Is to is to make it more simple, but like I think there's something lost not having a deep deep skill expression in a character like Ted. Like, imagine if they got rid of all the Spider Man's text. Like I mean, like that makes the character in some ways.

KPXCHRIS (17:35.874)
yeah.

KPXCHRIS (17:45.52)
Yeah. And I I see what you're saying, but you know, they had to make a decision across the board, right? Like why do some characters have their text removed, other characters keep all their texts? Like, I don't know. It yeah.

ApexDabi (17:47.565)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (17:58.194)
Well well can can you really please everyone? I actually have a a quote here written down and I'll I'll open it up to both of you two. Is it true when you try to make a game for everyone, you make it for no one?

Coach Mills (17:59.033)
No.

ApexDabi (18:10.392)
Yeah. You can't make everybody happy. Like there's always gonna be somebody that's pissed off that they didn't get the changes that they wanted. That's why like ki like Chris said that there's a cycle. That's like where the cycle comes in.

KPXCHRIS (18:18.34)
I mean

KPXCHRIS (18:23.374)
Yeah, I mean, I I I'll talk about the cycle because e anybody played League of Legends? Yeah. And so I I played, yeah, I played League for about twelve years, before I played Rivals. I was gonna make content on but you know, League's too oversaturated at this point. So I think League has perfected balance. they they balance for low ELO and high elo, and they have a great cycle of certain characters being meta for a little bit.

ApexDabi (18:30.402)
Yes, unfortunately.

Coach Mills (18:32.217)
No. Hell no.

CaptainCoach (18:35.473)
Mm.

ApexDabi (18:40.758)
Yeah, it's yeah.

KPXCHRIS (18:51.268)
And they also have like a two-week balance patch to where every two weeks the meta changes. then they have dev interviews to where the devs can interact with the chat and people and see, you know, this is why we buffed this character, this is why we did this decision. We can look at this graph and stuff like that. And I think Rivals and, you know, every game in general that does balance patches every month or so has a lot to learn from League of Legends because they've been able to create new metas every two weeks and keep.

league as one of the top games of all time. Right. And this is just very simple things like Xeong just explaining why they made the changes they made. Instead we just get patch notes with no explanation. And a lot of the pro players, a lot of people just look at these patch notes and they're like, what are these random changes? Like, how does this even make sense? Right? Like one one damage off like all off of this, like two damage off of this plus two going off of that. Like can we get some explanation? You know, like

ApexDabi (19:39.19)
It really does feel like they spin the wheel sometimes. Like it's just whatever. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (19:45.603)
And then Well yeah, then you look and the explanation is we wanted s fire ig ignite the battle and make his punches do more power. It's just like, what does that mean? What does that mean?

ApexDabi (19:52.054)
I

KPXCHRIS (19:53.84)
That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah.

Coach Mills (19:55.546)
I mean I mean if they don't give any reasoning for like what they're doing something for, you can't hold them accountable for when it doesn't deliver. Like if they say, we're buffing Blade here so that he becomes a healthy addition to the meta and then you read it and you're like, This does fucking nothing. This does nothing that they say and then then you can call out on it. But if they j if it's just kind of vague, it's just like, Yeah

KPXCHRIS (20:08.804)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (20:12.991)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (20:13.584)
That's what saying. Like I feel like I feel like if the devs do see this, it would be very beneficial to the community for Xeong to drop like a full video explaining why they're doing these small number changes, just so we have an idea. 'cause if you watch any league balance video with Freak, they have like all these graphs and all these analysis that they do and they go into the decision making and stuff like that for the characters they do. And so Yeah, it'd be

CaptainCoach (20:38.361)
Yeah, th I think that's a I think that's a great point. Like the line of communication between Riot games and their community is has always been very good. Eve you know, they'll they'll even have devs be posting on X, asking people questions, forums, communities. They're like, you know, they they're friends with a lot of the top players on Discord. I like and I too, I've been I I mean I I've quit, but I I've played league for over ten years. I I almost feel like Rivals has experienced more power creep in the last year than League has in the last ten.

KPXCHRIS (20:50.671)
Yep.

ApexDabi (20:51.074)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (20:56.112)
Yep.

KPXCHRIS (21:08.485)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (21:08.667)
Would you like it it's insane. It's i because I I I we talk about this a lot too on the pod. When they just make these wild changes and they don't have any like self control or discipline when it comes to buffing and nerfing, they just want to force metas instead of actually finding that that sweet spot. the game just kind of gets out of control and it feels it feels bad for everyone. And that's one of the things Mills and I wanted to bring up is I feel like nobody's happy right now. Like nobody like there's I mean

ApexDabi (21:08.675)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (21:33.199)
No.

Coach Mills (21:33.433)
Nettie's managed to piss off every community right now. Like literally every community at the same time.

ApexDabi (21:34.264)
To your point

KPXCHRIS (21:36.196)
No, I I feel like people just clock in to stream now, bro. I feel like nobody's having fun. They're just doing it just to clock in and get it over with, right? Like that's what I was doing. I it it just nah, the game

CaptainCoach (21:46.949)
That's I I I basically said exactly that. I I that's just I say I said, guys, I'm sorry, but rivals to right now, it's just a paycheck. Like I'm sorry.

KPXCHRIS (21:50.095)
There.

ApexDabi (21:54.786)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (21:54.991)
Well, that's what happens when it's been the same meta for the last like three months, right? Like, what has it been? The best in the slot has Triple Support, Ultron Adam, Mantis. They're still good. Gambit has still not been changed. Bucky's been OP for the last three seasons. Like the the really only significant change that we've had was Widow being good and then Thing being good. I guess Wanda's decent right now. I don't think Wanda's like S tier like everybody's saying, but she's definitely playable now.

Coach Mills (22:21.753)
Yeah, she's good. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (22:22.587)
She's good. Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (22:23.524)
But other than that, it's just been this the same stagnant comps. And I think the new team up system really powercrapped the game in a way that it made the meta characters significantly more meta, right? Like you gave Bucky infinite ammo and infinite like cooldown reduction with with with overshield on top of that, right? You gave Elsa an invisible trap to where any die pair that touches it for two seconds is gonna die. Right. Like I don't know. And yeah, and

ApexDabi (22:23.576)
Yeah, she's decent.

Coach Mills (22:49.461)
And more damage just for picking the team up. For no no no for no reason.

KPXCHRIS (22:51.65)
And more damage on her on her primary attack. You gave Silock extra invisibility, right? Like, I don't know.

CaptainCoach (23:00.901)
Well the her her burst too is just absurd right now. It's like what were they thinking? Like she's she was in a good spot.

KPXCHRIS (23:02.916)
Yeah. yeah, no. in a good spot. I banned that character.

Coach Mills (23:06.947)
So I'm not gonna lie, I I feel like I've been in the minority lately because I've been I've actually been enjoying the game like a lot. Like I've actually been having fun. Mostly just because six bands to me is way better than fucking, you know, double bands constantly, whatever. like consistent six bands. But I understand like a lot of people are like I think they're they're tired of the state of the game. I mean it like you said, it hasn't changed like meaningfully. But that definitely isn't the only reason why people are pissed off. So

There's a lot of reasons. And I that's why I wanted to bring y'all on to just talk about like there's like probably I mean, last patch, last season, we had a big debate. We hosted a big debate between flats and light talking about low elo balance versus high elo balance. And I think the problems have evolved even past that. Like so many players are just completely they feel like Netties is completely ignoring their complaints. I mean, how do y'all feel about the radio silence?

ApexDabi (23:48.962)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Coach Mills (24:02.379)
about netties and then like all the other problems associated with rivals right now.

ApexDabi (24:07.714)
But I I can go first if you want me to. I I I gotta I dude, I have a very passionate take on this. so I might yap a lot here for a second, so bear with me. First things first, I wanna say games die, and I hate that this is the way that it is, but it is this is how gaming has has evolved. Games relatively die if the audience

KPXCHRIS (24:09.988)
Yeah, I've been I've been talking a lot so you get it, yeah.

ApexDabi (24:35.49)
That little funny number, that little CCV number, the lower it is, the bigger the perception that this game is dying. I hate that that's the way it works. And we all know that like there's a lot of console players, there's and it and it's there's a lot of games out there that don't have a lot of viewership on Twitch, but most of them aren't live service games, especially multiplayer games. Most of them are like single player games, blah, blah, blah. And they have a really big fan base, but you don't see the viewers right on Twitch or on YouTube or on TikTok.

But games like Rivals, I think suffer incredibly when streamers, which 90% of them play ranked. And if they're not having fun in ranked, they're not gonna stream the game. And that hurts the overall game, period. No matter how many, if there's two million online PS5 players, that doesn't matter. The perception of the game right now, like as we all see on Twitter, we see it on TikTok.

Everybody hates the game. Everybody hates ranked. And 90% of streamers that I know, they're not playing quick play. They're not playing arcade. They're not playing PvE. There's no customs. There's no the only content that's kind of riveting right now is ranked. And ranked is in the worst state that it's been in a very long time for me as as a creator. Like what c what coach said, it just feels like I'm clocking in for a paycheck and then clocking out. I'm not enjoying my time. And the viewers can see that.

And when the viewers can see that the streamers aren't having a good time, it I know it's crazy, but they also aren't gonna have a good time. That's how it works. And that like that perception that this game is really bad needs to change. And it starts with them communicating with the streamers, with the pro players, with the casuals. Like like you guys said, they need devs to be talking on Twitter, asking questions, feedback.

How can we improve this? How can we improve that? It can't just be once a month Xeon gets on camera and then drops up a patch note thing. It's like it they have to talk to us because at the end of the day, that's that little funny number genuinely makes or breaks a game. I hate the way like I don't I don't want to say that that's like the way it works, but that is the way it works now. Like, like

Coach Mills (26:46.115)
Well, I w I w so I'm gonna push back on you here. this is not necessarily what I agree with, but I I can already feel the comments. I already kinda know generally what the audience is gonna say. So, I mean, there's a lot of controversy and a lot of things going on, especially in the creator spaces right now in Rivals. And I see like a massive amount of at least people that watch my content on the education side, or people like that play the game generally or like more casually, they don't even understand what any of it. They don't understand the the they don't understand the frustrations with the game because they're not

ApexDabi (27:11.982)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (27:15.927)
At the rank or the levels where that's apparent. They don't understand the the hate or the people why people are mad because they don't watch creators. They don't watch, they're not watching this pod. They don't watch. They don't they don't engage with this kind of stuff. And they they say, you know, you bring up something like that and they say, hey, look at the numbers. The numbers are just as high as they've ever been. You know, the numbers are actually better now than they were in like season seven and season eight. So how do you kind of reconcile the two? Do you think that

the state of the game now will be felt by them eventually. Do you think if there's like staggering consequences? Do you do you actually think that creators have that much power and that much like ability to influence the game? Like like influence the state of the game? Like I I'm I'm I'm curious to what you think. 'Cause there some people that think that creators are actually what causes all the problems in the game. Like if all of us just disappeared, that would like solve everything.

ApexDabi (27:44.376)
Yes.

ApexDabi (27:52.245)
Absolutely.

ApexDabi (28:01.674)
It it's they're half right. I'm not trying to fence sit, but they're half right. Like a lot of creators do complain and then they cause a lot some some I'm part of that problem too. Like I've been wrong plenty of times, but I've also been right plenty of times. So like it's a it's a double edged sword. Without creators, now more than ever, especially a live service game, like you need creators to per like those ads on TikTok and YouTube they don't really do they don't have as much of an impact as say

You know, Tim the Tapman playing the game, right? Like it brings a lot of I I know people are gonna disagree with me here, but creators genuinely especially TikTok, especially Chris knows, like especially TikTok, that funeral stuff, dude, like I bro, I I'm pretty sure my brother got that stuff on his feet and he doesn't even he's not tapped into the gaming scene at all. Like and like they're

KPXCHRIS (28:45.669)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (28:54.982)
So what you're saying is drama brings people. No, I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. No, no, that's so it's so what you're saying is it's a manufactured drama from Nettie. No, I'm just kidding, I'm kidding.

ApexDabi (28:58.134)
Yeah. Well a little bit, yeah. Like a kinda like it's

KPXCHRIS (28:59.602)
Y well, it it it warps the narrative of the game.

CaptainCoach (29:02.991)
Well, it it if you get rid of all the content creators, it's not like there just won't be content creators for the scene. There will people be people who rise up and take their place. And maybe it it'll be more reflective of what the community is looking for in the type of content. But you you can't deny the fact, you know, to Mills' point that a content creator finding success is a reflection of what the community well wants or sees in the game. I think that's a perfectly valid way to view things.

ApexDabi (29:04.812)
In I

ApexDabi (29:12.375)
Yeah.

Exactly.

CaptainCoach (29:33.036)
And you know, I like one of the things Flat said that this game just needs some like charismatic like coach to to kind of come into the scene and really start shepherding these new players into the game, kind of teaching them how how to play. And I I don't know if that's really feasible at at at this point with with how much of a difference there is between the the lower and the higher ranks when it comes to just I mean, it feels like we're playing two different games right now.

ApexDabi (30:01.634)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (30:01.946)
Yeah. I mean, but I know you guys had the whole debate with light and flats and stuff like that, but like is that argument not true for every video game? Right? Like every every game in high Elo and low Elo you're playing two different games 'cause people aren't realizing the max potential of the characters they're playing or the max like amount of strategy they could be implementing into the game. So I I feel like this this this applies to every community.

Coach Mills (30:15.705)
It is

CaptainCoach (30:25.071)
I'd I'd argue with with rivals because of how crazy it is with the balance. I'd say we're probably playing three different games, the third being the pro play. I mean, you look at a a hero like like Hulk, my hero, finding a lot of success in pro and everybody comes to me, Hey Coach, you see Hulk in in pro and I'm just like it's like, why can't you do that? I'm like, Well, because I don't have a team of six people to coordinate and get value out of my hero because my shield is an AoE, right? So there's there's a lot of teamwork and coordination and and there's all these little nuances and subtleties that

ApexDabi (30:31.469)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (30:33.817)
yeah.

Coach Mills (30:44.998)
yeah.

ApexDabi (30:45.39)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (30:54.211)
It it it it this just seems like a nightmare for them to balance and and they're I I don't think it's really getting better. I really I think if every season it it feels more and more imbalanced to me personally. And I I guess I I kinda opened it up here 'cause this actually did was one thing I wanted to talk about. Do we need to hit it out of the park in ten point five? Do we need to like 'cause they're not releasing any new like they're doing the P V E mode, right? But like they they gotta have a little time here, no hero releases. I know maybe those departments aren't necessarily

necessarily related, but what what are we looking for?

ApexDabi (31:26.862)
I have a video from one year ago, exactly one year ago. I said, Come doomsday. I called out this whole like all these issues that we're seeing right now, you know, like patches, the you know, the negativity, the all all this stuff, right? I have a year I have a video from a year ago where I said they have about six months to get it together, fixing the report system, the throwers, you know, the racism, the e everything, right?

They have about six months to get it together before Doomsday. And come Doomsday, I on the dot, this game is in the like just the most negative light. Because I I've s I I saw it happen with Overwatch. Like I watched it in real time where it was just they weren't acting fast enough. And they just like were all like, yo, house is on fire. And they're just like, nah, this is fine. This is good. I'm chill.

CaptainCoach (32:06.318)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (32:12.985)
Comments are triggered again.

CaptainCoach (32:16.729)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (32:21.413)
They got a dirty house. They need to clean up.

Coach Mills (32:22.195)
So

KPXCHRIS (32:23.194)
They're like locking in, like,

ApexDabi (32:23.244)
Yeah, bro, like like lock in, like we're all saying the unanimously, like we're all saying the same thing.

Coach Mills (32:27.587)
Well, so that's So that's something that I kind of wanted that that's that's a good point that you bring up about Overwatch because at least I don't know if y'all are getting it as creators, but I'm getting it a lot where it's just like people are coming and be like, hey, are you are you hopping on Overwatch? Are you hopping on Deadlock? Are you hopping on this game? Are you hopping on that game? And I'm like, no, I'm fucking playing Thor. No, no, d they're like, they're on they're they're literally it's literally unpaid shills. I swear to fucking god. How the fuck is everyone just shilling Deadlock?

ApexDabi (32:43.274)
dude, the deadlock people, they gotta be getting paid. They gotta be getting paid. I don't know where they're coming from, bro.

KPXCHRIS (32:56.336)
I mean, okay, so no dead Deadlock Deadlock has insane potential though. I'm telling you guys, once once they add skins to that game, it's gonna be the new CSGO.

ApexDabi (32:56.406)
Yeah, and that's like yeah, forty five minute games, bro. Just hop on and just I'm like, what?

Coach Mills (32:56.535)
Like like it's insane. I'm I'm I'm sorry

I mean that that's that's fine. I I have

I mean I I I have eighty eighty fucking H D and that's why I play rivals. I'm not sitting in a fifty minute fucking game farming mobs. It's just not happening. Like I'm just not doing that shit. That's

ApexDabi (33:11.438)
The only people who understand deadlock are people who have played MOBAs in the past. If you've never played a MOBA and you're trying to transfer hero shooters to MOBA, I promise you your chat is gonna be like, What's going on? Why is it so slow paced? Where's the fighting? Where like it takes a lot of explaining and as I like there's just no way. There's no way.

CaptainCoach (33:16.304)
I

KPXCHRIS (33:17.176)
Bruh.

Coach Mills (33:22.36)
Yeah, yeah.

KPXCHRIS (33:29.552)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (33:30.353)
I

Coach Mills (33:32.057)
That's just not a yeah.

KPXCHRIS (33:37.21)
But it's but once you get it though, it's fun. 'Cause I've been playing deadlock since the first beta. Yeah.

ApexDabi (33:39.89)
I g I agree. I agree a hundred percent. But it's just not stream worthy. Like unless you're already tapped into like MOBAs and League of Legends and like the hero shit the Call of Duty bros, they're not gonna understand it. They don't have the time.

KPXCHRIS (33:45.092)
You think so?

Coach Mills (33:48.506)
I mean it might it might be it might be eventually. I think it's gonna have a there's a couple of things you also also have to consider. Like the console community is like extremely massive in r in rivals. Like like people like to think their audiences overlap and they just I don't really think like I think I honestly think probably like eighty percent of the people that play rivals day to day are probably console. And none of those people can play deadlock. So like you're you're right. I I

ApexDabi (33:59.214)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (34:03.618)
They yeah.

KPXCHRIS (34:09.924)
Yeah. No, I did get a lot of comments when I was playing Deadlock. It's like, when is it coming to console?

Coach Mills (34:14.017)
I actually think the the bigger scary the scarier actual real competitor is Grand Theft Auto. But we'll talk about that in a little bit. the the wait wait wa w

KPXCHRIS (34:20.529)
yeah, a thousand percent.

CaptainCoach (34:20.965)
I I I wanted to mention deadlock real quick, 'cause I don't think that game's ever going to be popular mainstream. I I think

KPXCHRIS (34:26.88)
no no, I I absolutely think you're wrong. No. No no no no no no no. It's the it's the next big Valve game. It's what they're putting all of their resources into. No, get 'cause the Valve hasn't released

Coach Mills (34:26.946)
Yeah, not exactly.

ApexDabi (34:28.374)
I'm with coach, bro. I'm I'm genuinely with coach. Like I I don't think it's going to be. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (34:30.545)
'cause like mm

Coach Mills (34:35.347)
I think I think I actually think it will be big. I think it will be big. I think it will but it depends on what you mean by big though. Like what do you what do you mean what we mean by big? And it's not gonna be league big, but it's gonna be healthy.

ApexDabi (34:35.369)
I I I don't see it.

CaptainCoach (34:38.203)
I mean you just

ApexDabi (34:42.818)
Are we are we talking league big or are we talking just like

KPXCHRIS (34:44.814)
Yes. Yeah. I I think I think it's gonna be league big. I think it's gonna be league big. Yes. I absolutely. It's it's Valve. Valve Valve has infinite resources to put into deadlock. That's why the game's been in early access for the past like three years, right? They've been pumping out these insane updates. and they haven't even monetized it yet. The game went insanely viral off of just being a beta only invite, right? Like for you having no marketing whatsoever, for it being purely word of mouth.

ApexDabi (34:47.48)
Really? Wow. I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong.

CaptainCoach (34:48.865)
Mm

KPXCHRIS (35:12.89)
Valve had a beta only invite game. Yeah, it it does.

Coach Mills (35:13.879)
I think the Valve name carries a lot though, right? Doesn't

ApexDabi (35:16.076)
Yeah, but also like it it helps when it's on the front page of Steam. Like like they own the company so they could be like, look, deadlock, we made a new game and it's like, I wonder what this is.

KPXCHRIS (35:19.972)
Well yeah.

KPXCHRIS (35:26.958)
But like do you

Coach Mills (35:27.161)
I mean like I I definitely think deadlock's gonna be huge, but it's it's it doesn't provide the same exper like if people think that it's a h it's just a hero shooter it's like it's the same experience as an Overwatch or a Rivals. It's like not even close. It's like

ApexDabi (35:29.965)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (35:36.257)
It's not, yeah.

KPXCHRIS (35:37.914)
I mean, like, d do you guys see the CSGO case openings that are still happening and stuff like that? Like, imagine that, but in deadlock, right? It's gonna be the next huge market for skins and

ApexDabi (35:41.804)
Yeah. Yeah.

Coach Mills (35:42.893)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

CaptainCoach (35:45.36)
Yeah I

ApexDabi (35:47.107)
You know what I think it'll be? It'll be the equivalent of what Valorant is to CSGO. I think it'll be just like a like I think Yeah, it'll be just as big as Valorant, but I don't think it'll break that like there's no way it gets out of that dome. It's just I don't see it.

CaptainCoach (35:53.519)
I I think that's a fair yeah.

Coach Mills (35:55.105)
So the you're saying league to deadlock?

KPXCHRIS (35:57.081)
Nah, I I disagree. I I I I I s I I strongly disagree. Yes. Not like not like Super League of Legends big, but definitely like top five games of the of the of the time, yeah.

CaptainCoach (35:59.217)
MOBAs.

Coach Mills (36:01.975)
You think it's gonna be like the biggest thing ever?

CaptainCoach (36:02.33)
Listen.

CaptainCoach (36:08.399)
It's it it's too hard, man. It's too hard. Like MOBAs are fundamentally

KPXCHRIS (36:12.516)
I mean league is hard.

ApexDabi (36:14.85)
Well okay, wait, hold on. We have a game. We have a game, it's called Predecessor. Same thing, and it flopped. It was Paragon and then it became Predecessor and then it I like Paragon, but it just it flopped.

CaptainCoach (36:15.537)
Mm, I don't think so.

Coach Mills (36:21.283)
Well, I I that that's you I I mean that's not val that game I played that game. That game was kinda ass. I'm not gonna lie.

KPXCHRIS (36:22.382)
Well yeah, yeah. I I played I play Paragon. That's Yeah.

CaptainCoach (36:26.811)
Chr Chris, compare Deadlock to s something a bit more closer to home. Have you ever played Paragon? Have you heard of that one? Because I know you. Okay, like compare the skill scene of Deadlock to Paragon or Deadlock to Smite. MOBAs, like fundamentally, they are way too punishing to have one be that hard to play for it to be mainstream. Because if you make one mistake, especially in Deadlock, the games are so long, and I know they're trying to fix that. And but you you're gonna be stuck in that lobby now for

KPXCHRIS (36:33.38)
Yeah, we I play I play Paragon, yeah.

ApexDabi (36:33.74)
Yes. Yeah, it was great.

KPXCHRIS (36:51.342)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (36:53.625)
thirty, forty minutes because you made one little mistake because you you missed your shots. I I just don't think a game like that with how mainstream gaming has become is ever gonna find commercial success.

KPXCHRIS (37:03.62)
I mean look at look at StarCraft, look at League of Legends. Those games are still hard to play fundamentally.

Coach Mills (37:03.777)
L

ApexDabi (37:07.096)
Yeah, but like those so those are like that's like comparing like new gen anime to old gen anime. Like those guys were first. Like they came out at a time where the market wasn't there wasn't as much competition. So they were able to thrive.

KPXCHRIS (37:13.838)
Well well

Coach Mills (37:19.097)
I mean, deadlock is still gonna be. I I I I agree with you, Chris, that deadlock is gonna be. I mean, it's gonna be big. Like it's it's gonna be big.

KPXCHRIS (37:20.152)
Well no no the the argument

CaptainCoach (37:23.695)
It it's gonna be big, but it I don't think it's ever gonna be like league big, not even close.

KPXCHRIS (37:24.676)
The the argument is that, like, yes, there's an initial sort of gap in knowledge that you have to, you know, ascertain in order to play the game, but that same gap exists for league, except there's a hundred and fifty characters in league and there's two hundred items you have to learn and stuff like that. It's the same thing in deadlock. Once people understand the initial gap, I think it's gonna be popular. It's like you like so like with that with that line of reasoning, like our

Gaming companies are supposed to just make like brain dead easy games for the audiences to people who just don't want to take time to learn a game. Like I think in today's marketplace, people want harder games because strategy is rewarding, right? Like it's annoying to watch somebody load up into rivals and then, you know, just have really good aim and just two tap you after half the screen away versus like, you know, there being actual strategy and deadlock because like, I can build this item to counter this guy, you know, if he's if he's going crazy and stuff like that. Right. Like there's nuance in the strategy. And I think, you know.

that gap has been kind of opened by league because while league has been popular, you know, most play game in the world for the last like ten years or whatever, I think that opens the space for, you know, competitors to say, Hey, you know, we know you're tired of League. It's been there for a while a long time. let's come over here and play Deadlock, which is gonna have all these new skins, all these new case openings and a cool new map. And they also just announced the update today where they're adding six new characters as well. And they still haven't even announced when they're gonna actually drop the game. So

CaptainCoach (38:47.097)
I I think that's a fair argument. Like I I do think there is a massive need or want for like more a a more competitively rich experience. Like I I do think that is something people are very much I just don't think it's gonna be a deadlock. I just don't think it's gonna be a MOBA. But I I I see your arguments. I agree with it. Like just the like you talk about the items and the knowledge checks and stuff. Sure, that's yeah, I actually kinda like how it's set up in deadlock. I actually think it's it's a pretty easy system to learn with the items, how how they're all like color coded and but I for me it's it's

ApexDabi (38:47.149)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (38:55.706)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (38:56.44)
Green. Yeah.

ApexDabi (38:57.645)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (39:03.684)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (39:14.977)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (39:15.909)
the mechanics are are are that is just something that not everybody is going to be able to do. I got about two two hundred fifty games of deadlock under my belt. So I played it I play Shiv. I I really like Shiv. I don't know which what what your main is, curious. really? Okay. Cool. Cool.

KPXCHRIS (39:17.912)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (39:23.118)
Yeah.

Yeah. I play Victor. Yeah.

Coach Mills (39:30.113)
Because I th I think how how do I put it? I I feel like there's two different camps of games. And like so like the there's the camps like the hyper competit like the more competitive ones, like the League of Legends, stuff like Deadlock, stuff even like Valorant, and then there's like the the massive, more casual games. Like that would include like the CODs, like all of the war zones, that would include like F Fortnite, that would include like games like that. Rivals has a massive amount of that audience. Like not the same audience. Like they're they they're

ApexDabi (39:39.619)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (39:57.53)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (39:59.16)
I think the frustrations happen because there's overlap, right? Like we are the overlap. We're we're bleeding into like the more competitive experiences. That's what we desire. But I mean, the major like so many people that play this game that they would have been they were playing Warzone, like like two years ago, three years ago, whatever. Like they were just grinding out Fortnite back, you know. Like that's just what they were doing and they moved. Those players are never jumping on the deadlock train. I just don't see it. Like, I don't if you're the guy that plays Warzone every game.

ApexDabi (40:01.976)
Mm-hmm.

ApexDabi (40:15.725)
Mm.

KPXCHRIS (40:24.676)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (40:24.876)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (40:25.563)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (40:27.373)
You're not, you're not. I mean, it's just it's just not happening. Like, I can't possibly see it. But I but I'm saying I'm saying that that's a massive audience of people. Like ri like like I I I just think the audiences for the games are different. I think that rivals can cater towards casual or competitive players more, but we can also have this giant group of the casual people, because that's really what the movies are about and that's what everything is. You deadlock players will never grab those people. Like it doesn't matter how you can never

ApexDabi (40:29.122)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (40:29.657)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (40:29.828)
Yeah, I yeah, that's like it's always gonna be the case, yeah. Yeah.

ApexDabi (40:46.658)
Yeah. It's it's transferable.

KPXCHRIS (40:49.722)
Yeah. And

Coach Mills (40:53.623)
You could never make that game casual enough to grab those people, so you you don't even need to. You just d you just it makes it simple because you don't have to cater to any casual player ever. Like you just don't have the you only cater to this one community. The community's gonna be smaller, but it's gonna stronger. Like it's gonna be very strong and tight knit. Right. I mean and and and and the thing is Dodo Dota 2, like they in its prime, I mean, it's getting t crazy good views. I mean, good stream views, cause

KPXCHRIS (41:07.128)
And yeah.

CaptainCoach (41:07.983)
Like Dota Dota two, I could see it finding that level of success, which is pretty big. It's pretty big.

Coach Mills (41:18.795)
Another thing about it is like competitive players convert more to like watching content. They watch streams more, like versus a casual like like a lot of the truly casual people that play rivals, they don't they're not watching streams, they're not watching pause. You know what I'm saying? Like like a g I think it's like a game can have a bigger audience without being as good of a content game, in my opinion. Like I I don't agree with like that necessarily, but like I I think deadlock is gonna I mean my boy Paz, and we had him on the pod. He's quit too.

ApexDabi (41:23.916)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (41:39.482)
I I agree.

Coach Mills (41:45.23)
He's quit to deadlock. His videos are doing extremely good. He's he he was like a very big Marvel Rivals content creator, doing really well. and he's doing even better in Deadlock right now. And he's probably gonna blow when the game comes off, he's probably gonna drop I mean, I think his average is like twenty K, thirty K. It's probably gonna go up to like, you know, a hundred K per video 'cause it's like pre game, it's like I Yeah, I can actually I can actually pull up his that might actually be interesting to pull up just so just for like a like a a study.

ApexDabi (41:55.203)
hell yeah.

CaptainCoach (42:03.983)
He just he does guides. I haven't been keeping up with Paz.

ApexDabi (42:04.611)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (42:11.481)
I peaked his stream a couple of weeks ago.

KPXCHRIS (42:14.584)
I had a video go viral telling content creators to tap into Deadlock and like a million views saying it's gonna be the next big game. So I I'm serious but I like I don't see myself playing Deadlock long term though, 'cause I think I'm just gonna play GTA six and then hopefully I blow up from that and just do whatever I want. But

ApexDabi (42:25.069)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (42:32.245)
It and is that is that 'cause that that's that's like I guess the way I would ask you Q KBX is like do you think the people that are playing GTA I mean it I mean I guess they're not. The the GTA players and the deadlock players are they're there's like almost no overlap. Very little. I mean b b well, they're on different systems, they're

ApexDabi (42:48.14)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (42:48.228)
Well, the the the idea of streaming, at least to me, would be to build a core audience and then transition to other stuff and, you know, keep transitioning, right? Like, I feel like every streamer has started off with like one main game that they play, they build their core audience and then they go to variety, post content about that variety game, build their core audience and you know, they keep transitioning. So yeah, you're gonna lose players regardless or or lose people that watch you regardless, but like, are you just gonna

eternally be relegated to only playing one game for the rest of your life 'cause you're scared to lose viewers, right? Like

CaptainCoach (43:19.979)
Hey, the title of the next game I'm playing's got forever in the name, so I'm gonna be playing that.

KPXCHRIS (43:24.08)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (43:24.38)
the W World of Warcraft, you're the gr the grind.

ApexDabi (43:26.251)
my god. Going back, huh? Going back to the roots.

CaptainCoach (43:26.683)
Forever. Last game I'll ever play. Yes, sir.

KPXCHRIS (43:29.69)
Yeah. but going going back to rivals though, how do you guys feel about Gore? 'Cause I really do feel like a part of the reason why the season has felt so boring to me is because Gore's release was kind of extremely underwhelming.

Coach Mills (43:43.514)
I think that character's peak. I actually love his. Yeah, I think he's peak. I think he's one of the best I think it's one of the best released characters we've ever had. Yep. No, I and and I and I'll explain to you why. I'll explain to you why. I think he is very strong, but he has key windows of vulnerability. There's there's there's ways to to mess with them. There's ways to kill him. but it it at his niche, he's extremely good. If you get ice isolated with any support, like if you have a window and opening, you create it or you find it.

CaptainCoach (43:43.931)
Hm. I think I think he's

KPXCHRIS (43:44.976)
You think you speak? Am I the minority here?

ApexDabi (43:46.624)
I I think he's good. I I

KPXCHRIS (43:50.346)
no, I s I gotta disagree. I gotta hard I gotta hard disagree.

CaptainCoach (43:52.334)
I I I agree.

Coach Mills (44:10.777)
I you're killing backlines even through sustain. You're killing invises even through sustain. Like you don't care about sustain in the same way that like a Spider Man is getting frustrated with a cloak and dagger, like keeping the self alive. Like he just doesn't care about that. But he has windows where he's very vulnerable. I think I think he I mean he's seeing pro like he's he has a reasonable win rate across ranks without being broken. He doesn't feel frustrating to play against. Like it feels like you can actually catch him out. He's seeing play throughout every rank and in pro play. I think to me

I think he's I think he's great. He's not an Elsie, he's not a Gene Grey, he's not an Emma, he's not a Gambit. Like there's so many shitty releases and he's not on the other end either, like Blade that released terrible. Like he he's he's good, but not broken. I think that's very rare. I d I don't know.

KPXCHRIS (44:49.562)
See, the the the same the same way you feel about gore is how I felt about Hood, right? Like I think Hood was the perfect character, right? Like he

Coach Mills (44:55.201)
Okay, well ho who's a good one too. I think that I agree, but I agree.

ApexDabi (44:56.054)
Yeah, yeah. I literally played him, I think was it yesterday or two day two days ago, most underwhelming character out of all of the tanks. And I and I really don't like Penny. Dude, it's his gameplay loop is exactly the same every single fight, no matter what. It's like I don't like that his primary is pretty much like seventy percent his kit is literally his primary.

CaptainCoach (44:57.793)
Coach Mills (45:08.675)
Wait wait wait really? No he's good.

CaptainCoach (45:10.288)
Hm.

KPXCHRIS (45:10.414)
Wait, Hood? Wait, they nerfed they nerfed him. They nerfed him.

Coach Mills (45:24.537)
Yeah, he's a gun character. What wait what are you talk Wha what do you want? Like you wanted to like

ApexDabi (45:24.63)
Is like trying to max out the guns, getting them

KPXCHRIS (45:24.654)
Yeah. Well he's a gun yeah, he's a gun character, yeah.

ApexDabi (45:30.743)
No, no, but I I I I'm saying like like for something like like for example, okay, Hulk. His primary, sure, like it's great. Everybody's just holding down mouse one when they're doing their, but there's more to his kit, right? There's like hitting the tech, the team up, like the bubbles, the stun. It feels as though Hood is either you flank and you just maximize that like, you know, you being kind of like a like a a DPS tank, or you're frontline tanking.

And you're just shooting guns down main. I it the gameplay loop just feels so stale. I I I don't know I don't understand how people can play the the hood. I I just don't understand it.

KPXCHRIS (46:07.802)
Well, I I enjoyed it. It's it's it's very very chill. Like you just it's

Coach Mills (46:09.929)
I don't I don't agree with that at all. Like I I don't even play hood.

ApexDabi (46:12.372)
I I just don't get it. He's got like two play styles and that's it.

Coach Mills (46:16.217)
I mean, you could literally say the same thing about like so many characters. hell, and she just takes it off angle and she just shoots at people, she shoots at a squishy or shoots at a at a support and that's her like

KPXCHRIS (46:20.398)
Yeah.

Bucky, you just you just shoot down main. Punisher, you shoot down main.

CaptainCoach (46:27.505)
Alright, so so in Dobby's defense, I've seen this guy's white fox. Like, he does not play heroes the same way as everybody else. And he

ApexDabi (46:32.94)
Yeah, I don't play heroes the same way that every way

Coach Mills (46:33.719)
No no but I but I I I'm I'm a Thorman, like I get what you're saying. Like to me most other tanks are boring, but like I don't think he he definitely serves a niche for people. He's popular, he's not broken. I mean he was probably a little broken on release, but it's like he I think he like I'm thinking about healthy releases. Like I think Gore and Hood were both actual healthy releases. If I stack them up up against all the other releases, there's so many very unhealthy releases.

ApexDabi (46:47.575)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (46:48.088)
No, I

ApexDabi (46:55.31)
That's fair. That's fair. I'm I'm I'm really critiquing him on like replay value. I just get bored. I get really bored playing Hood. Yeah.

Coach Mills (47:02.839)
I mean it yeah, Tank Pool is more way more interesting to me. I'd rather play Tank Pool every day, but it's just me personally.

KPXCHRIS (47:06.528)
but with me, the thing about gore is I just feel like there's other dive heroes that like do what he does but better. and I also hate like Daredevil or like Psylock or like a displacement spidey. like the fact that gore can go in, his hit box is really big. He doesn't generate like that much overshield. And then if he gets CC'd, like he doesn't have a way to block CC. I had a video about this actually, because all the other dive heroes in the game can

Coach Mills (47:16.461)
Like like who? specifically.

ApexDabi (47:19.862)
Hmm.

KPXCHRIS (47:36.036)
Block CC. Gore is the only one that can't really do that. Right. Daredevil goes in, he blocks. Iron Fist goes in, he blocks. Spidey can swing away.

ApexDabi (47:37.358)
Mm.

CaptainCoach (47:44.091)
Sorry to interrupt you, but that's not tr that's not true. That's not true. He can he Gore can block C C. He he can do it with his clones. I've I've done it multiple multiple times. Like and maybe not all C C like a bucky charge will go through but

ApexDabi (47:44.981)
He's racing his head.

KPXCHRIS (47:46.648)
What's that sure?

KPXCHRIS (47:54.809)
You're good at you're good enough to throw your clone and block a C C that fast? I

CaptainCoach (47:57.65)
Hundred percent. you you can body I mean I mean I I've only gotten to celestial on him, but most played. I mean I mean there was first couple I mean I'm decent. I'm all right. Like most my my chat usually yells at me for saying I throw, but like yeah, you you can use your clones to body block, like block off Ez Escapes. I actually died to one yesterday as Hulk from that because Ogora outplayed me. Like there there's definitely things you can do on him, but I I I kinda like agree with the idea that like when when you do get on him, he does feel like he's either he's kinda like feast or famine, I I feel like.

KPXCHRIS (48:03.275)
You must be Thanos, like that's

They're

KPXCHRIS (48:26.788)
Yeah. Nah yeah. And I was I was talking to Chom about it on his stream, and he said that like the reason Gore is getting picked in pro play is because he's good in the chaos comps, like brawl comps like Dino, Ultron, Adam, that can just like hard go in. And if he's fully pocketed, you know, he does a lot of damage. That's AoE and he can kill people in the chaos and stuff like that. But in isolated comps and like 1v1 situations, a lot of the time the other DPS are winning because he's easily kiddable.

CaptainCoach (48:27.813)
ApexDabi (48:37.774)
Mm.

KPXCHRIS (48:53.924)
you know, he's easily C Cable and his hitbox is big. So that's why like me personally, like I y you know, I j I

CaptainCoach (48:56.667)
Chris.

Shouldn't shouldn't that be how a hero should be though?

Coach Mills (48:59.427)
mean you c a a ca a hero a a hero cannot be good in all situations. Like the the

KPXCHRIS (49:01.966)
Yeah. Yeah, no.

CaptainCoach (49:03.705)
Right. You should have to have your teammates to to actually be good. Like I think that's like the idea of like the that's that's good design to me. 'Cause I I agree with you a hundred percent. Like he's ke he's kind of brawly, right? And you can you put like a Ultron drone on him or kind of like almost like pseudo frontline and have it work, but in ranked, you're not gonna get that kind of support ever. So you really are locked into this certain type of like one dimensional playstyle. I totally get what you're saying. I just think to me that's like good balance. Like that's that's kind of like the Hulk's problem, is why he's either like terrible or

ApexDabi (49:05.038)
True.

KPXCHRIS (49:10.607)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (49:14.36)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (49:20.622)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (49:32.229)
you know, you'll see in competitive. It there's not a lot of in between with

KPXCHRIS (49:34.959)
Yeah, I I don't know. I I I just feel like his kit was kinda underwhelming to me. And I also think that like the kind of summoner archetype of him like summoning minions and teleporting to minions and then empowering his minions with his ult, I think that should have been given to Ultron, right? Like I think Ultron fit the summoner archetype. like evil robot overlord that summons like robots that shield and heal you and stuff like that. Then he has to like micro the shield and healing.

ApexDabi (49:51.438)
Mm, that's a good one. Yeah, that's a good one.

Coach Mills (49:53.965)
I agree. I can agree with that, yeah.

CaptainCoach (49:55.278)
I agree.

ApexDabi (49:57.015)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (50:03.638)
And like I feel like Ultron's power fantasy was not fulfilled at all because, you know, he took over the world, all the robots, right? And then now he just summons these like two little drones and then he flies around the map and just lasers you like a little ant, like I like I don't know.

ApexDabi (50:10.477)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (50:13.315)
Yeah, yeah.

CaptainCoach (50:16.731)
Imagine if he could have multiple drones set up around the map, maybe like Loki clones, but he transfers his consciousness into one and then you know, he the other one just dies.

ApexDabi (50:19.829)
my god.

KPXCHRIS (50:20.558)
Well yeah.

Coach Mills (50:22.554)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (50:24.236)
He can like control where it is, like you know what's his name? Victor? Remember like Victor can control that little like lightning thing that he around the map? Yeah, so maybe like he can control where the drone hovers and like put it at a POI or something.

CaptainCoach (50:26.981)
KPXCHRIS (50:32.568)
Is this all?

CaptainCoach (50:33.223)
yeah, yeah.

KPXCHRIS (50:37.552)
I was thinking he summons like like actual robots, right? Like he would summon like a robot that would like automatically heal somebody who was low or like a robot who could like shield somebody or like damage with somebody. Like yeah. Yeah.

ApexDabi (50:45.995)
like a like a little pal?

CaptainCoach (50:46.085)
Well he already he already has he already has that. It's your it's your teammates every day. That's those are the bots. Broom.

ApexDabi (50:49.952)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (50:52.281)
Like like what what if like you could like as you played the character, you earned credits that you could spend on different robots that you built. Like this is like one Yeah, yeah, but but but but it's like but it's like here's a little bro here's a little heel drone that you can you can like you know, giving commands like walk this way or stand here or clear the area. You have another one that's like a tank and it's like hold objective and it's less like a tank that like just does this like over and over. I don't know, then just like they could they could have definitely been way more creative.

KPXCHRIS (50:59.812)
Like black cat? Yeah, nah. Yeah, they they they gave black at everything, bro.

ApexDabi (51:00.219)
no, we're getting into black cat territory. No no no no no no no no please no no no.

KPXCHRIS (51:11.247)
There.

CaptainCoach (51:17.253)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (51:21.829)
meme potential with that is is through the roof. Like all ultron drone tanking better than my my teammates, you know.

ApexDabi (51:21.9)
Yeah. Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (51:22.309)
The

Coach Mills (51:22.805)
Yeah, yeah.

Wait, so real quick, I wanna get back to what I was saying before because we we kinda got lost in the weeds. What I was saying, cause you said you talked about Overwatch, how you you brought up Overwatch and then we were talking about like all these games that like were you know, we d we talked about deadlock, we talked about GTA. Yeah, wait, wait, wait. Okay, okay, no, no, it's okay. It's okay. Wait, wait, I I I reference right. What what I was saying is so I think that there's a lot of doomer takes out there. And like I understand the frustration. I don't even wanna

ApexDabi (51:37.655)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (51:41.184)
I I do wanna say I apologize, I keep bringing up Overwatch. I'm so sorry. I'm so s it's the only game that I can like you know, it's the only comparison, sorry. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (51:45.115)
Ha ha ha.

Coach Mills (51:57.114)
Quell the Doomer takes, even though like there's a lot of people that are really negative about the game, they they say all these stuff and I like I ult ultimately think that the game is is fine, but I don't even like to publicly say that because I want Netties to feel what people are saying. Like it's important that Netdies feels people's complaints. but like think about Overwatch. Now we're bringing it back. How bad was that game's PR a year ago? How bad did people think about people were dancing on the funeral pyre that is Overwatch and

ApexDabi (51:58.595)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (52:09.622)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (52:26.765)
And now the game is doing but probably better than it's b done in a long time. Twenty nineteen, maybe twenty twenty it's been doing really good right now, and it's actually really set up to do even better going forward. And what this kind of shows to me is like as long as the dev as long as the dev team is making money and a dev team is willing to start somewhere and start taking steps in some good direction, a game is never truly dead. Like

ApexDabi (52:49.454)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (52:49.549)
Like the game, like in and I think in Rivals, when they can really connect things with the new universe. I mean, you could lose all your creators, everything tomorrow. Everyone fucking quits the game. Everyone's pissed off. But then big update combined with new cool character, combined with new maps, combined with toxicity updates, combined with rank system reset, new rank system, transparency, blah, blah, blah, and then everyone's right back. So like to me it's not like I understand like games dead. Like we like to say like I think it's important to talk about that kind of stuff like it's

We want the devs to hear us, like when we're talking. Like I I know that people want to be heard. That's very important and they need to hear. But I I don't think it's like this game is never to a point where it's unsavable or like it's impossible to get on the right track. It's just I s it's overw if Overwatch could do it, rivals could do it, right? Like we could bring it back.

KPXCHRIS (53:32.62)
I

KPXCHRIS (53:35.855)
I fully agree. I especially hate the rhetoric from streamers who say the game is dying or the game is dead. 'Cause like shooting yourself in the foot, right? Like you stream this game, you make content about this game. You would want to be the last person to say this game is dying or this game is dead. Now, complaining about it and wanting to get to to get fixed is another thing, but you know, I back when early rivals came out, people

We're all making those videos talking about, this game was gonna die in six months. This game is gonna die in two months, just trying to go viral and stuff like that. But it becomes a feedback loop, right? Because it's like if I get online and I see my favorite streamer calling this game dead or saying it's dying, I'm gonna hit I'm gonna feel personally, that, you know, the game is bad too. And so, you know, you get that interaction. But you know, people are just losing out on the fact that it's a Marvel IP and that's gonna take it extremely far.

ApexDabi (54:00.91)
Mm-hmm.

Coach Mills (54:03.225)
Right. Yeah, yeah.

ApexDabi (54:04.515)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (54:20.493)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (54:26.392)
I don't think this game was gonna die either, but I think the player count can lower significantly, especially after they drop their most popular characters. for instance, like I really don't see a more popular character than Doom and Thanos, right? That was like really gonna bring a lot of people back into the game. I think Thanos is like their super ult in terms of the game is dying. We need to bring everybody back and try to get everybody locked in right now. So let's let's let's hit the Doomsday button. Let's drop Thanos too.

Coach Mills (54:45.943)
Well the the I I think I wonder if you would agree. I think I I actually think their biggest their biggest secret weapon, to be honest with you, in my opinion, is Miles Morales. I think it's actually like that's like super secret. I mean like i 'cause I mean if if if i they're eventually gonna bring Miles into the MCU, right? And like when they do that, I mean, you know, finishing off the Spider Verse trilogy, which they fucking need to do already and then

CaptainCoach (54:46.873)
Mm-hmm.

ApexDabi (54:54.508)
That was a double pun. I like that. That was a double.

KPXCHRIS (55:03.13)
Yeah, I would say number three for Miles, yeah.

KPXCHRIS (55:08.997)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (55:15.267)
You know, they do the they bring Miles in the MCU, release a character. Like that would be probably insane. Like fucking so nuts. They will a hundred percent add Miles. There's gonna let's fucking go.

KPXCHRIS (55:19.706)
Yeah. I I think they have to. They have to. They have to. Spider Man player? Yes, they have to. They have to.

ApexDabi (55:20.514)
I don't know if they're gonna add Miles. I two Spider Man players on your back line? Bro, they're gonna gigabuff the back line to being like raid bosses. Like I we're never gonna hear the end of it. Dude, can you imagine?

CaptainCoach (55:27.587)
Ha ha ha.

Coach Mills (55:30.731)
Let's fucking go, bro. That's gonna be so insane. It's gonna be it's I I think it'd be so think of the combos you could pull off with another Spider-Man. Pull into uppercut into pull into down slam into like my god. Ult onto ult I don't know. They they they they need to They need to give

KPXCHRIS (55:32.088)
Yeah, there's there's there's gonna be a point to where if if they're on track, they're gonna release enough enough characters.

ApexDabi (55:41.083)
my god.

KPXCHRIS (55:46.379)
ApexDabi (55:47.304)
Actual nightmare fuel, dude. Nightmare fuel for all for the back line.

CaptainCoach (55:51.555)
I I'm just thinking of a Spider Man with like a camouflage. Like, my God, what a nightmare that would be.

ApexDabi (55:55.823)
my

Coach Mills (55:57.208)
Like I don't know if y'all saw the Spiderverse movies, like across the Spider Verse. I don't know if y'all saw that one. They need to give like Miles like a fucking down smash, like a lightning down smash where he's like s he like slams people like and then they all the way to the ground and like take damage or something like I mean I don't know. They you could do some crazy combos with that shit, but

ApexDabi (56:12.57)
It's in the game. I don't know if you've played the the Spider Man games, like the actual they they have like the what you just exactly what you described, like taking up and then smashing them and then there's electricity. Yeah. So like that stuff already exists. They could probably just incorporate it. I'm just thinking that if they do add miles, it's gonna open a hole. I think before they do that, we have to get to the point where there's six bands per team. It like like it we have to get to that point before

Coach Mills (56:19.742)
they did you?

sure.

Coach Mills (56:31.401)
He's

KPXCHRIS (56:38.33)
Well yeah. It it's it's gonna get to that point. It's gonna get that point.

Coach Mills (56:38.537)
Ha ha ha

CaptainCoach (56:41.166)
Yes.

ApexDabi (56:42.028)
Because we we can't keep coming out with characters and you're you got double dive and then you got venom and then you got Hulk you know what I like that's just it's gotta get crazy. There's gotta be a yeah.

Coach Mills (56:53.259)
be great. It'd be a great time. It'd be fucking great.

KPXCHRIS (56:53.658)
Yeah. Well

CaptainCoach (56:54.235)
More bands. There are no diminishing returns to bands until we get to like seven, eight. Like I I I'm I'm a firm believer that we need more bands in the game. But you

Coach Mills (57:00.353)
No.

ApexDabi (57:00.813)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (57:03.416)
My my other hot take is that I don't think this game is ever gonna be truly balanced until you add roll queue or at least roll limits in two two two. I I think you can't keep adding characters because it's just gonna buff triple something in in some way that you can't really balance for, right? Like I think Hood was balanced in two two. I think he was fine. but they nerfed him really hard because he was broken in triple tank. And then I heard like some pro teams are running even four tanks because of Hood.

ApexDabi (57:03.49)
Yeah, we need more bands, hundred percent.

ApexDabi (57:29.806)
Mm.

Coach Mills (57:32.697)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (57:32.74)
being in the game. And so I think that like for like they're forever going to be limited by the fact that this character might be strong in triple X or Y. And eventually there's gonna have to be a point to where, you know, let's just balance it around two two two. Let's rework characters around two two two. And you'll get a more stable and long term game and an easily more balanced game in the future. So

CaptainCoach (57:55.036)
Kinda a question about that. This is actually something I I asked Trust Me last time he was here. pretty early on in into our discussion was basically I with this most recent season ten patch, they ended up nerfing the tankiness of a lot of the top tanks. I mean, I guess they nerfed him in a lot of ways, but it it seemed like the tankiness was like a a really big point that they were trying to hit. And to me, it almost feels like I mean tanks in the in the game right now pretty much do as much damage as

most of the top damage minus like the the you know, so to me, does it do you feel like they're trying to push the game away from having the roles be unique? 'Cause to me it feels like everything's kinda just kinda just merging together, but I

KPXCHRIS (58:25.061)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (58:38.468)
Yeah, I mean there's there's outliers, right? Like, you know, Luna can two tap you, Adam can two tap you, Mag can two tap you. but for the most part, like I think, you know, the roles are pretty much the roles. I I do think that damage is too high for tanks, but I I I think it's like damage is too high for tanks, damage is too high for supports. But from a pragmatic standpoint, to get people to play tank and support.

the role kind of has to be inherently little strong, right? Cause like, if you play in low ELO and you're a support main in low ELO, you're getting dived a lot of the times by all the Spidey and BP and Silock main and stuff like that going for you, right? And so in low ELO, people don't peel you. So for you to be good enough to climb out of that ELO, you're gonna have to fight back and you're gonna have to get really good at hitting your lunar freeze or get really good at cycling your cooldowns on C and D or your mantis sleeps and stuff like that.

It's the same thing with tank, right? Like if tanks didn't do any damage, then the low ELO players would suffer as a result and not be able to carry their teams out of that ELO and like climb from that ELO. It'd just be people picking DPS the entire time. But that goes back into my original statement talking about, you know, why the game probably needs role queue or roll limits and stuff like that. But yeah, I think the damage being high isn't sort of a metric of them wanting to blend the roles together, but more so a metric of incentivizing players to want to play tank and support.

ApexDabi (59:36.526)
Mm.

CaptainCoach (01:00:03.749)
Yeah. I actually I like that answer. I feel like I said's kinda true. 'Cause y Mills remember like what what Trust me said about supports, right? I kinda wanna ask Dobby about that.

Coach Mills (01:00:04.951)
Yeah, 'cause

Coach Mills (01:00:11.511)
Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah. yeah, so do you want me to say it? I I can I can kind of summarize. So so this is what this is what the trust me said a lot of stuff about the balance of the game, but in his opinion, he felt like there was a flaw in the way that supports were designed and the way that that healing works in this game, where characters ch can just get healed up to instant. So like you can stand in space, you take, you know, eight hundred damage, you take a step back, or maybe don't even take a step back, and you're healed back to full instantly.

CaptainCoach (01:00:15.791)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, go for it.

Coach Mills (01:00:40.301)
So he thinks there needs to be a cost to that. So but at the same time, he feels like supports, because they have so much power there and they have so much power just to keep themselves alive, most of their entire gameplay loop is just heal body. Like healing each other healing, healing a DPS to protect them, healing a tank. That's where their value is. So he wants to massively reduce the healing numbers of the character, reduce their sustainabilities, but then increase their playmaking. And that doesn't that might be damage. That might be abilities. It could be a whole bunch of things. But the idea is that supports could actually

ApexDabi (01:00:53.816)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:01:10.167)
win a duel in isolation if they play it well. So like well, I mean it's not copying, but I but hi in his mind he thinks that that is a better support experience than the one we have right now, which is supports don't fight back. They just heal bot. That's all they do. Like like like I think I think that's a common complaint I see is like isn't this just copying that? It's like Overwatch invented the the the hero shooter genre. It's like it's not it's not a unique thing. It's just like there's spectrums and like right now supports are just fuel.

KPXCHRIS (01:01:12.624)
Isn't that just copying Overwatch though?

ApexDabi (01:01:15.437)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:01:32.632)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:01:39.492)
For a team. Like that's all they are. Like your your job is to stay alive and to fuel your team. But we know like Anna, I don't know if you ever played Overwatch, but we know like Anna did was Anna like a like a victim to like like it when I w I know when I played Anna back in the day, if I was just better than their Genji, yeah, if I if I was just yeah, yeah, i but if I was just better if you're just better than someone of like a lower tier than you, like if I was a Grandmaster player up against like a low masters player, I'm never losing on an angle as Anna. Like I'm I'm I'm winning that duel.

KPXCHRIS (01:01:41.541)
Yeah.

I I think

Yeah.

ApexDabi (01:01:54.211)
She was not a victim. Yo, you were the victim if Yeah.

ApexDabi (01:02:07.212)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

KPXCHRIS (01:02:07.994)
Yeah, thousand percent.

Coach Mills (01:02:09.069)
That's not gonna happen in in rival I mean on some characters, but it's it's not really the same way. and the question is, should that be the the case? Does that does it is is that it maybe maybe it's a spectrum and we're too far towards one direction? Or maybe you think, hey, it should be more. D support should do even less damage and just heal more and

KPXCHRIS (01:02:27.364)
Wait, I I just want to chime in and s and and say one thing. I think Rivals is way too over reliant on just the AoE healing circle ults. And I think that you can rework a lot of the support ults to be a lot more interesting to where you're not just pressing one button, nobody dies. You know? And when people started cycling that with three supports and you're sitting there for about 30 seconds watching them cycle their ults, that's where the game and frustrations, you know, get stagnant and boring and stuff like that. Right. So I think Overwatch done a great job with that.

ApexDabi (01:02:41.837)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:02:49.93)
Right.

ApexDabi (01:02:51.106)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:02:52.719)
What a missed opportunity. Well some of the heroes, like in VizAlt, I think a perfect example, like you that alt could be strong in in its own right without having it be a big circle of healing. Like putting an area on the map where the enemy team can't see, but then we turn it into this thing where you have to use it to save somebody. Like to me, that that's just like a gross missed opportunity where it's it's like if you kind of just reel back and and try to focus on what makes the hero cool. Like in Viz, if you focus more on like her being stealth, closer up.

ApexDabi (01:02:54.733)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (01:03:09.486)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:03:21.765)
maybe going for plays instead of al always having to just heal people all the time. That's why I was like asking about the tanks is cause if tanks had enough defensives to actually keep themselves alive without needing to be heal botted all the time, that could unlock other heel healers and and playmakers to go do their own thing. And then we could start balancing the game around the cool parts about the game, the interactions, right? Not the the power creep and the uptime of just seeing those health bars goes up go up like a like a phone game or something. because one of the things I proposed to trust me was just to give everybody

KPXCHRIS (01:03:44.944)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:03:50.202)
a little bit of passive healing, more just the for the sake of argument, be like, What if everybody has had healing where you didn't need a healer so the healers could go do something else? But there's there's other ways you could do that. Like g

KPXCHRIS (01:03:57.113)
I They did that with the green health though, right? With the dive health a little bit.

Coach Mills (01:04:01.764)
A little bit, but

CaptainCoach (01:04:01.829)
The green health is is yeah, I I to be honest, like as a tank, one of your main ways to win right now is really just to feed your healers alt charge. So in a lot of ways the green health is is kind of counterintuitive. It's kind of a nerf in in a lot of ways. It does open up some playmaking, but yeah.

ApexDabi (01:04:12.216)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:04:13.091)
They're all connected, yeah. Ye y yeah. 'Cause it 'cause like I I guess like the the way to describe this like I guess a way to visualize the the difference is like I don't know if Chris if you ever played Overwatch, I don't know. I I I I d the the comments are already the all the okay, nice. The the comments already triggered about this, so we're just gonna go all in on it. Fuck it. think of like like the Genji versus Anna duel.

KPXCHRIS (01:04:14.693)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:04:26.8)
I did. I I was masters. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:04:36.599)
Right. The Genji has to engage at the right time, find a window of opportunity, do enough damage right off the bat, or outplay her with his deflect. Right. The Ana has windows where he can shoot the Genji, sleep the Genji if the Genji wastes his deflect, if he's not taking a lot of damage. And like, I like I'm someone that has 4,000 hours on Genji, and I had like 2,000 hours on Ana. So like I felt like if I played the matchup right on as Genji, I win. But if I played the matchup w right on Ana, like I had a pretty good chance to win too. Like it was like there was

ApexDabi (01:04:37.57)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:04:54.032)
Dang.

Coach Mills (01:05:03.927)
That was that was like a cool, fun engagement. And so like as an Ana, you're like playing on an angle, the Genji comes after you, you have this little mini duel. What's the Daredevil versus cloak and dagger engagement in in our game? But like she's just sir you know yeah. I mean she she's she's not fight is she fighting the Daredevil at all? Like, does she have to kill the Daredevil to win the fight? She doesn't have to win like she's winning it by just I'm in a I'm gone, I'm gone. Like, what is that?

ApexDabi (01:05:14.69)
Bait. I think okay. So I yes, I I I w I wanna expand on that.

ApexDabi (01:05:26.104)
I I think Yeah. Exactly.

Coach Mills (01:05:32.526)
Why is that the gameplay loop that we well, I mean I mean Luna's the one character that has any sort of like any sort of counterplay, but the there's other problems there where it's like she has crazy high healing and then she also has an ultimate that is like really, really so valuable that you don't even want to risk your life like to die because you want to play for this ultimate. So it's like I mean, it to me it's just the the experiences are like not

KPXCHRIS (01:05:34.264)
I Luna can freeze bidey.

Coach Mills (01:06:01.22)
They don't line up properly, in my opinion. Like

ApexDabi (01:06:04.302)
I think it's I think it part of the biggest problem is that a lot of support mains and I'm gonna talk about support mains, it is just specifically, I think they are stuck in a gameplay loop where they feel as though if they even try to make a play or do any kind of damage, the team is yelling at them saying, Why are you not healing? Right. So a lot of the support players are kind of they I and I hate to say they got PTSD from just being yelled at 'cause they see their rocket take out their gun.

Coach Mills (01:06:23.225)
A hundred percent. Yep.

Coach Mills (01:06:31.177)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

ApexDabi (01:06:33.304)
And he's like, dude, I'm getting 1v1. You're not helping. I'm gonna defend myself, right? And it's and it's okay. So like I think we need to start telling strategist plays that they're strategists. If you were a healer, I would understand you just sitting there heal botting and just doing nothing else. Because that's your sole job is to heal. That's what your kit is designed for. But when you're playing something like White Fox or Adam Warlock, your job is not to heal bot. You enable your team as much as they enable you.

But you have a kit that is that can fight back. You can make a play. Like it's not just listening to tank, I'm engaging here, follow through. Like the the support can also see a play and be like, if especially if they're playing something like Adam Warlock and they're looking for an angle to get like, you know, a little cheeky right click or you know, and even even if it's C and D and you said the d Daredevil versus C and D, that's where increasing the cooldown comes in. It that interaction that you're talking about with Anna and and Gendry.

Coach Mills (01:07:06.905)
Well see

Coach Mills (01:07:30.829)
Yeah, but you just increase the cooldown. What does she she d she just dies though? If she can't fight and she can't survive, then what does she do? If the Clogadagger can't fight or survive. Well yeah, a hundred percent. Like j it needs to be a more offensively base. Like she needs to be able to fight.

ApexDabi (01:07:31.756)
We we have to increase cooldowns so she doesn't have that every twenty seconds.

ApexDabi (01:07:38.765)
We gotta change the kit. We gotta change the team up. Like, that's what I'm saying. Like s fundamentally, some of these supports have to change in order to get value. Like, or in order for them to have that, you know, fight back. Cause like, let's think about it. Mercy, what does she do ninety percent of the time? What what's her job ninety percent of the time? It's to just sit there, damage boost, and heal boost. Yeah, she's not fighting back half like 90% of the time, you're not gonna see

Coach Mills (01:07:49.145)
'Cause 'cause you're talking about like

Coach Mills (01:07:56.824)
Well right. Yeah, yeah. Well she's like she's the outlier. She's like the true outlier.

Coach Mills (01:08:04.801)
No, no she's not. No, she's not. I hey, you can do it though, but yeah yeah.

ApexDabi (01:08:05.152)
Mercy running running you down or even taking a 1v1 with her blicky. You could, yeah, you could, but it just doesn't happen often. And that's okay. Some characters, it's okay for them to exist that way. If that's their way of life and and and their whole job is to heal, but that's all right. And I think Cindy, I think we just gotta walk away from that. Like she's just that. Like she is the mercy of rivals. Like her her biggest output is just healing.

KPXCHRIS (01:08:29.206)
I agree. The

Coach Mills (01:08:29.229)
Well, okay, well then let me let me give you a b let me give you a big better example than Gambit. The way that you actually carry on Gambit once you get to Celestial Plus is you heal bot. You do not playmake. The whole concept the second Well it's no but it's but it's not just well, I mean notes a part of it, but it's like it's consistent throughout the role where it's like the problem is the moment that you stop healing, the value proposition doesn't exist. Anything that you could accomplish not healing

ApexDabi (01:08:35.726)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:08:38.938)
Yeah. And that's but that's that's on them not changing his ult though, right? Like that's

ApexDabi (01:08:39.97)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (01:08:44.394)
Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Coach Mills (01:08:59.317)
Is not as valuable as what you could accomplish just by healing. Healing is that powerful. Just i if if if I'm dueling, if I'm Invis or whoever, or if I'm Luna, and I duel a Daredevil for six seconds or eight seconds, and then I get him off me, or maybe I even win, I'm looking back and my dino's fucking dead. If instead my like I you're right, like I could have healed 1400 healing in that time frame.

ApexDabi (01:09:02.638)
Mm. Okay, I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying.

KPXCHRIS (01:09:04.122)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (01:09:16.802)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's damage too high, yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:09:16.826)
Yeah. Damage is too high, you have to heal it.

Coach Mills (01:09:25.475)
That I tried to take a duel and so it's it's a it's a multifaceted problem. It's like a problem of ults, it's a problem of sustained cooldowns, it's a problem of healing, it's a problem of damage, like especially spam damage, like fucking Bucky, like why am I just standing there as Bucky, just fucking outputting two K damage every ten seconds? Just like why does that exist?

ApexDabi (01:09:39.381)
I'm I am like I I don't know why Bucky he he just gets to slide every I don't understand. Like I genuinely don't understand why he gets him and Luna too. Like I've noticed that if they do get nerfed, it's so inconsequential that you don't even like you read it and you're like, that's a nerf. And then you play the character and you don't even feel the nerf. You're like, dude, he's I'm still getting run down. Like, and also I think they gotta stop giving.

Coach Mills (01:09:45.273)
Ha ha

CaptainCoach (01:09:46.35)
Mm-hmm.

KPXCHRIS (01:09:47.93)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:09:55.009)
It's cause of skins. Well for Luna it's skins.

ApexDabi (01:10:08.254)
Every single character the opportunity to get overhealth. Like that that to me is also ridiculous. Like everyone's got overhealth. Everyone.

KPXCHRIS (01:10:13.968)
No, I mean, I think I think overhealth can be fine. I just think there needs to be a way to counter it, right? Like maybe add a new mechanic to lessen the overshield that people get if they want to give it to everybody. 'cause as it's saying it's just strong and there's no way to really deal with it and every character has it. they've also just randomly buffed Hella every patch too, and randomly buffed Mag every patch as well. Like I don't I don't know.

Coach Mills (01:10:14.304)
Right.

CaptainCoach (01:10:14.577)
I I

ApexDabi (01:10:24.76)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (01:10:35.414)
I I have you guys seen the Hella the Hella meme where it was like a six stack and it was everybody had a hella team up? I just like I started everyone's got a hella team up and it's like why? Actually though, like let's take it why does why does she have everyone's team up? It's crazy.

Coach Mills (01:10:43.155)
yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, I saw that.

KPXCHRIS (01:10:44.515)
There.

KPXCHRIS (01:10:51.182)
Hella has been good since the game came out. I I don't underst yeah. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:10:51.601)
I

ApexDabi (01:10:53.77)
I I agree. Hundred percent agree.

CaptainCoach (01:10:54.811)
I I I think there is a world though where overhealth can be healthy for the game because it's a way to still keep the damage and the burst feeling, you know, engaging, fun, like when you land your shots, somet something actually dies, but not having it be tied to healing. Because like when people have their own like you can't heal a shield, right? So the idea is that again, that's kind of why I brought up the tank defensives, like Magbubble. Mag is one of the few tanks I feel like can kind of just survive on his own for like a a reasonable amount of time.

ApexDabi (01:11:13.688)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:11:23.127)
And even this last patch they nerfed his tankiness and I I just don't think that is the direction. But to Mills's point about like you stop healing for a second and then you let someone die, right? Like Dobby, I I I reference your White Fox gameplay like when we played quite a bit 'cause 'cause he he just picked up the the role of support and and and hit eternity.

Coach Mills (01:11:37.977)
Ha ha ha.

ApexDabi (01:11:39.778)
Okay, okay, wait, wait, wait. Before before you go on, I just wanna say I have a twenty eight percent win rate on White Fox this season. All right. I have just gave I've given up playing it. I can't. The way that I play it is just it's not sustaining. I I can't do it. I can't do it.

CaptainCoach (01:11:48.763)
Yeah.

Yeah, just you So so just I mean, correct me if I'm wrong at any point in this, but basically i if somebody dives in, like a venom or whoever, Dobby will he will just go in, pop his cooldowns, and start swinging. He'll and he he'll he'll just coin flip fights. And and it works a lot of the time when you get a kill, but I think the really you overextend so much right now, it's just like it's just not worth the payoff. It's just not worth the payoff.

ApexDabi (01:12:03.575)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (01:12:07.725)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (01:12:20.48)
It's not yeah, it's not worth it. And there's just a lot of CC in the game. There's just so much so much C C and there's so much I I I don't know. I I I we all joke about it, but what is tenacity? Like genuinely.

Coach Mills (01:12:33.421)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I I think you're right. I think you're

CaptainCoach (01:12:34.064)
KPXCHRIS (01:12:34.082)
I think they shadow nerfed it actually. That's my theory. Yeah. Cause on on on early access, when we first played it, it felt like it procced e very easily. And then everyone that's posting videos about it, because I had a few videos go viral about the early access tenacity and how easy it was. And then the the live servers come out, it never procs. So I I think they definitely changed some stuff behind the scenes because you're never gonna get it unless you're playing like Hulk or you're playing like you

ApexDabi (01:12:35.906)
Like I it just it doesn't proc. It doesn't proc ever.

CaptainCoach (01:12:36.781)
I it does kind of feel that way.

ApexDabi (01:12:43.841)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (01:12:54.412)
Yeah. Something happened.

Coach Mills (01:12:56.321)
It's fucking what

CaptainCoach (01:12:58.275)
I I I'll tell you the the micro C C in the game right now is absolute absolutely unbearable to play against. I had a clip

ApexDabi (01:12:58.807)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:13:05.592)
It's the team ups. They yeah, they they they gave everyone random C C buttons, yeah.

ApexDabi (01:13:05.804)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:13:07.385)
Well that yeah. That that's that's another thing Trust Me said is that the C C in this game has gotten out of control and it makes it so like the first person threw a choke, you're you're gonna get hit by like ten C Cs. Like there's just too much change C C that exists.

ApexDabi (01:13:18.147)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:13:18.69)
And and but that like that's going back to what I said about Gore, right? It's like you being that character and having no way to block C C just feels so punishing in in the in the games I play with them. So

CaptainCoach (01:13:28.123)
I mean, I think a I why the bigger problem is the fact that one CC can chain into multiple because naturally if somebody is CC'd, then your next C C is easier to land, right? But then you couple the fact that every second someone is CC'd, the higher the damage it is in the game, that's more time where you're prone to getting killed with no counterplay. And that's the issue is like the damage and the CC combined makes it so if Luno lands that whatever the little white fox team up where it's just like and then you just like look the other way, that

Coach Mills (01:13:28.643)
So it's so wait o over Wheelson? Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:13:49.39)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (01:13:56.386)
Yeah, the cleanse, yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:13:57.733)
There.

CaptainCoach (01:13:58.222)
If I get hit by that as Hulk, I'm dead. If they're even remotely playing attention. And that's not skillful. That's not engaging. That's just mindless slop. And and they have to do something about it.

ApexDabi (01:14:00.322)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:14:07.673)
So Iowa you you might like this K KPX I so I just played in a creator tournament on Saturday and I had Mike Mikey was my my team captain Mike's above you and then I had I had I had Kayla on my team, I had Sky, I had some other creators, and then I was up against Pinky Melon and Zoteic's team, and they had a whole bunch other creators. And we could not beat this team. They kept on going triple triple, triple tank, triple support, and we could not win against this team. And so like we were just losing and losing and losing, and we're like, fuck it, let's try it. I went Venom, we went Venom Hood.

KPXCHRIS (01:14:16.793)
Okay, nice.

KPXCHRIS (01:14:23.577)
Mm-hmm.

KPXCHRIS (01:14:31.962)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:14:37.517)
Blade gore and we fucking we stomped the fuck out of this team like all the way to last made them start swapping we snowballed with ultimates they could not figure out how to stop the composition because when they had to basically take themselves off a triple-triple, but that was their strength, and then we just beat them like if we could make small swaps and we just beat them because blade gore

KPXCHRIS (01:14:42.629)
Friday.

KPXCHRIS (01:14:59.45)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:15:02.195)
against a composition that doesn't have those crowd controls 'cause they're playing three three, they're playing triple tank, triple sub, just they just they can't do shit. Like they're just literally g getting getting fucking I mean, we went we we we just cycled Gorold into Blade old into Goro. Like it was just it was just gross. It was just gross.

ApexDabi (01:15:08.93)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:15:10.917)
I mean

KPXCHRIS (01:15:14.862)
Yeah, you get your ult really fast on Blade too, 'cause they they buff the sword range. So in triple tank, if they're not like hard C Cing you and focusing you, you get your ult extremely fast.

CaptainCoach (01:15:15.351)
I you just

ApexDabi (01:15:17.965)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:15:25.329)
See, I I I feel like in rank that that's a pretty easy comp to deal with personally. Like Mills, what do you think about this against that? You go Emma, Bucky, Hella, Phoenix, and then just whatever triple.

Coach Mills (01:15:32.675)
Well the Well that the that that's the thing is like when they they would they would lose to us in the two to two mirror. Like they they would lose to us in the two to two mirror 'cause we would just swap. Like I could play Thor Tank Pool. Mikey can play any DPS at a top level. So it's like our problem was they were playing three three and shutting us out. So then we have like it was like like counter swapping in the context of scrims and and tournaments is like actually really fun in my opinion. Because it tests you about like what can you play? Like how deep is your bag?

CaptainCoach (01:15:41.156)
Okay.

KPXCHRIS (01:15:59.216)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:16:02.222)
But it's not like that in ranked when it's like you need multiple swaps to to actually counter what they're doing and no one else is willing to swap with you. Like like you're like, they're playing three three, let's play Storm Punny and like someone's like, Get off Storm you're throwing and they're fucking playing like Spider Man and they're just dying over and over 'cause there's no one for them to kill. It's like, Okay, we lost, like

KPXCHRIS (01:16:18.926)
Yeah, no, this is what Captain Coach was saying about there being three different games. Because if anyone in the audience has been in a tournament or been in scrims, you are playing an entirely different game once everybody's on the same page and taking it seriously. Levels of coordination, the levels of teamwork and compositions that you can play and the angles that you can take that all affect the a butterfly effect on the on the team fight and happen, stuff like that. So

ApexDabi (01:16:31.434)
So different.

KPXCHRIS (01:16:44.9)
The game is a lot more engaging and it's like it it's it feels like that's how it's actually meant to be played in terms of like scrims and stuff like that.

Coach Mills (01:16:49.069)
Yeah, you it does. That really does.

CaptainCoach (01:16:50.245)
We in the recent Pro Sixo tournament we we were screaming against KPX Chris's team and we eventually figured out that we just needed to ban his blade 'cause we just didn't have time to figure out how to beat him. So we just banned his blade and we were just like, Okay, we got it. Like let's it's like why are we do we really

Coach Mills (01:17:01.497)
Okay.

ApexDabi (01:17:02.542)
Ha ha ha.

Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:17:06.938)
Dude, y'all the only team that banned my blade, bruh. Like, yeah. And it's it's funny about that too, because I had actually gotten coached the for the first time ever, I got coached. And the coach is like Vod reviewing our games on Blade. And the first thing he said is like, Yeah, you gotta talk about this character. Like, like Blade is just not good in scrims, and Blade is just like his ult, is his DPS ult isn't that good in scrims and stuff like that. which hopefully he'll change.

CaptainCoach (01:17:09.605)
Well we were running triple too though. We were w a triple healer, but

CaptainCoach (01:17:26.501)
Ha ha ha.

Coach Mills (01:17:28.227)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:17:34.802)
But yeah, it was it was it was good into what we wanted to run. And I feel like one of the problems that at least in the the mid to higher ranks in kind of experiences is there's like a carousel of swapping where eventually you pretty much settle on the same couple comps every game. And and it's not really really realistic to get anything other than those comps because their ease of execution is so much better than a comp like say like a gore comp.

KPXCHRIS (01:17:50.757)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:18:04.325)
Where you where you have to dive, where there's a bit more coordination. So for instance, like you know, the the comp I mentioned in Mills, you just go Emma Dino Bucky Hella. Yeah, that comp is going to be just about anything if you're the same level of skill. It just guaranteed. Just guaranteed. And I I think that's a big problem with rank is the heroes where their barrier to like execution is just so much lower because it's a lot of it's just shooting down main choke, you know? And it's just

KPXCHRIS (01:18:15.46)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:18:27.984)
Sitting down man, yeah.

ApexDabi (01:18:29.332)
That's how I feel when I play Hawkeye, dude. I I don't have any time on Hawkeye, but sometimes when I know I'm playing a map like Clintar and I know they're never gonna flank, I'll literally play Hawkeye and just shoot down main. And I'm like frying. I'm like, my god, I'm like the best Hawkeye ever. And then I d I play him on a control map and it's just like I can't hit anything. Because it's it's true. Like sometimes it is just shoot down lane and you just get value. And it's just R and G at that point. Like

Well like if they don't change up their comp or they don't change up how they're doing like you know what I mean? Is is that am I making sense? Like sometimes it is really just maps like Clintar and and what's the subway map? Is it Midtown? That one is also it feels very shoot down main. Like there's not a lot of places where you can go. Like if you just play something like Bucky, you can you can thrive. Like and you just sit there and hold.

CaptainCoach (01:19:12.294)
Midtown?

KPXCHRIS (01:19:14.586)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:19:23.033)
And that's

KPXCHRIS (01:19:23.47)
I mean, I don't know, but y you you get to high elo and then you start bursting the the aim demon hellos that can they they off angle for they off angle for one second and two tap your supports. Like that's why I I I can't I can't be eternity and you know, vulnerable for too long and stuff like that. So I

Coach Mills (01:19:28.473)
Right.

ApexDabi (01:19:29.004)
Yeah, yeah. And then you're just cooked, dude.

Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:19:34.595)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:19:40.154)
I I think they should completely get rid of the the two taps from poke heroes. I think they should completely rework how that I I just don't like I I get the idea like that's what a shooter should be killy stuff fast, but it just doesn't fit in rivals to me after playing the role of healer and DPS. I've been learning both the roles. I just think headshots should give a different type of reward, like a stacking buff for these types of heroes.

KPXCHRIS (01:19:51.812)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:19:56.384)
I I don't know. I I am actually completely fine. I'm actually completely fine with it. I I know I'm not gonna I'm not gonna agree with everyone. That's that's what I'm not okay with. And so like I've always said like I think dying fast is fine to me as a policy, but dying instantly is not. So if something kills you instantaneously, I I fucking hate it. I mean I mean we're not gonna talk about the game that must not be named. We're we're we're done with that. But that is what tilted me the most is getting one tap.

KPXCHRIS (01:19:59.013)
I mean I

ApexDabi (01:20:02.572)
Yeah, I'm I'm okay. As long as there's not a one shot, I'm okay with it. I don't like one shots.

KPXCHRIS (01:20:02.767)
Like you you

KPXCHRIS (01:20:07.438)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:20:26.051)
'Cause then it just feels like if you get shot once and you're near a wall, you have a t a moment where you can get out behind cover, right? if you're positioned well. Ideally. I don't know. I I I I can understand what you're saying, but like if if you took away what would you say, you say three taps on Hella? Four taps? Like what do you Yeah, I know, but what you would you you want to get rid of it though. So what would you replace it with?

ApexDabi (01:20:33.357)
Mm-hmm.

CaptainCoach (01:20:43.905)
Hell is hell is a two tap? I mean boom, boom, you're dead. Just like that.

CaptainCoach (01:20:50.571)
headshots, you know, as far as satisfying I I'm well aware by the way that this is not a popular take, but I just think from a design perspective, balancing the game in the big picture, this is like really the only way you're gonna be able to do it, unless you do s you know, maybe like separate balancing. But just as an example, every time you land a headshot, maybe she she kinda like, you know, whatever there's a visual effect and

her her thorns get stronger and she gets like like maybe the her spikes like fire out further and become like bigger so they're easier to hit. But and you know, kind of like in the movie, The Ragnarok, Thor Ragnarok, where she gets kind of like this stacking buff where she just becomes unstoppable. Cause she's she's like ramp up. So eventually she will get to that point where she's one shotting.

Coach Mills (01:21:24.825)
Right.

Coach Mills (01:21:30.635)
It should be terrible. But it should be terrible though.

KPXCHRIS (01:21:33.168)
But I mean, my thing is like I I

CaptainCoach (01:21:33.605)
Yeah. But she'd be balanced. She'd be balanced.

ApexDabi (01:21:34.028)
Yeah, I think that I think i I I think I think if all characters that to tap turn into that, it would it would turn into a dive meta every season. Like there'd be almost zero incentive to play hit scan if some someone like D D can just the T D K is so fast he could just dive you and just delete you.

Coach Mills (01:21:53.261)
Yeah, 'cause

KPXCHRIS (01:21:53.283)
And I I also think that good aim should be rewarded as well. Cause it it it it is hard to have good aim, but there is a level of like player frustration that exists because you you reach a point in rank to where, you know, Pellas and Star Lords and Elsa's and Psilox, they just stop missing and you're just losing neutral interactions because they just have better aim than you. And so you just feel frustrated because your aim isn't good enough. But like that's just me. Like I don't like playing in Hylo. Like I I reach out all my streams. Like I'm perfectly fine in Celestial and

ApexDabi (01:21:56.959)
I agree. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:21:57.831)
What's it's

KPXCHRIS (01:22:21.947)
GM and stuff like that 'cause you know, it's just it's just not fun in High Low.

ApexDabi (01:22:23.128)
Coach, what did I say last time, bro? What did I say? I said GM and Celestial, exactly what Chris is saying, is the Goldilocks for content. Any higher? And it's just like miserable, dude. Everyone's min maxing. If you even miss one bullet, one ultimate, dude, you're getting spam reported. Like it's just it's it's it's not playable. It's not playable.

KPXCHRIS (01:22:32.76)
It is, yeah. No, it is, yeah. It it it's it's terrible.

Coach Mills (01:22:33.344)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (01:22:33.818)
I

KPXCHRIS (01:22:44.74)
Yeah. And you got people like they they stop talking about other stuff that's like only like IGLs or only people trying to like win the game. It's like it's

Coach Mills (01:22:46.804)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (01:22:51.296)
Yeah. Like in the SS cool, bro. But even sometimes when you're calming, they're Why you talking so much? Why you yapping so much? And I'm like, yo, everybody's silent. No one's uttered a word. Like, I'm talking for six people.

CaptainCoach (01:22:52.846)
I so it

KPXCHRIS (01:22:58.853)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:22:58.961)
Ha ha.

Coach Mills (01:22:59.212)
Yeah.

Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (01:23:03.045)
No, I that's that used to be me, bro. I like this is the first season where I I think I I kind of have that mindset now. I and my chat won't let me hear the end of it. my God, you're in GM. I'm like, guys, I don't cal anymore. I just pick what I want. I play gore. Like, I don't care. I'm I can't be helped to to try in a game where I just don't feel like I have a fair chance to win compared to the hellas. Like again, I I I agree. I do think good aim should be rewarded. I just don't think it fits in the way the game is currently set up. I just don't.

Coach Mills (01:23:05.721)
That's true.

KPXCHRIS (01:23:16.099)
Exactly.

ApexDabi (01:23:21.024)
It's exhausting, bro. It's exhausting.

KPXCHRIS (01:23:23.235)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (01:23:31.363)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:23:32.837)
I just don't.

Coach Mills (01:23:34.766)
Kind of feels like it's like some of these hit scans are designed for normal people. Like they're designed to not like like well, I mean they they do not expect a fucking 14 year old that has basically 95% towards aimbot. Like that's how good their aim is on six hundred milligrams of caffeine, like two tapping you across the map when you're flying through the air is Spider Man. Like they don't like it's very hard to balance for that.

ApexDabi (01:23:42.132)
Expand on that, please. What do you mean by that?

CaptainCoach (01:23:42.417)
What yeah, what do you mean by that?

ApexDabi (01:23:53.943)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:24:04.045)
Performance. I'm just saying. Like if you bounce for that performance, the character is completely unplayable by anyone else. It's very hard. It's not I mean it's not easy.

KPXCHRIS (01:24:05.636)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (01:24:05.869)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:24:08.773)
Okay. Do do we think the payoff is worth the effort? I mean, you can compare arrivals to other shooter games, which must not be names, but maybe something like Call of Duty, where you know, you land a couple headshots in that game, you die, but everybody can do that. Everybody. I mean, as a tank, if Hella lands a couple headshots, I'm I mean I'm dead. Like she Hella can kill a tank in two seconds.

Coach Mills (01:24:31.275)
Yeah, but sh sh I mean she but she's not getting it's not like she's getting banned to the same percentage as some of these other characters. So like if you still have the agency to ban her if you want to. It's just the the the hard part is like how many good Hellas are you actually running into and ranked? And so like you don't really know if that's the character like you'll know within the first fight if you should have fucking banned Hella, you'll like, shit. I should've I did that character but like that's that's my my problem is value without like I at le I at least feel like that's value with skill.

KPXCHRIS (01:24:32.655)
Well

ApexDabi (01:24:38.35)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:24:44.9)
They're they're rare, yeah.

ApexDabi (01:24:46.499)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:24:53.638)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (01:24:53.816)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:25:01.803)
I I that's that's maybe I'm my bar is too low, but

KPXCHRIS (01:25:01.88)
same thing with with with spotty players like my all my other hot take is that I think Spotty shouldn't spawn with three web swings because yeah yeah he like Spotty can just abuse the fact that his rollouts get get him back instantly and so he can trade cooldowns with a support die and then come back fast and the support's cooldowns are back up. but you know I it's also thinking it's where it's like Spotty's the hardest character in the game.

CaptainCoach (01:25:01.883)
Fair enough.

ApexDabi (01:25:02.829)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:25:13.401)
I think Day Day said d agreed. I think he agreed with that. Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:25:31.734)
should you be rewarded for having perfected rollouts and having perfected all the combos? Cause I think Spotty has like what, a hundred different combos or something. They got a whole s they got a whole spreadsheet of all the Spidey combos. So

Coach Mills (01:25:39.233)
That that logic done. That's crazy.

ApexDabi (01:25:45.869)
I've never played a character like Spidey before in all of my fift twenty years of gaming, I've never once encountered a character like Spidey. So I I do respect the Spidey means out there that can just you know, they they hit everything, bro. Every map pull, every and they're doing it consistently and they're not missing a beat against like some of the most C C that we've ever seen in in a hero shooter. So I I commend you guys. Like

KPXCHRIS (01:26:01.243)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:26:09.285)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (01:26:13.302)
I got no beef with the with the good Spidey Mains. Now the bad Spidey means, the one the bread and butter merchants, I got a bone to pick with y'all. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:26:15.833)
Hey.

CaptainCoach (01:26:16.688)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:26:20.422)
that's me. That's me. Let's go.

CaptainCoach (01:26:22.565)
So y okay, let's let's compare that then though. Web swing off the map. That's a pretty much a one-shot kill versus the Hella headshot, stun headshot. Like which one of those is harder? I would say it's definitely the Spider-Man one and it's cooldown gated. So to me, that would be a more balanced and and by the way, Hella, when she's not doing that combo, she can still fire down main choke and have constant pressure. So I I think like Hella is just a an objectively better hero than Spider-Man on a fundamental level.

ApexDabi (01:26:28.322)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:26:51.973)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:26:52.015)
So to me, it's like I'm not saying remove the headshot, still give her a reward. She'll do more damage, but take some power away from that initial burst, maybe like twenty percent. We can tune the numbers, maybe fifty percent, where they it it's only like a hundred and fifty percent damage, but not double, but then you give her kind of this like other reward that encourages her to still go for it.

Coach Mills (01:27:10.187)
you so you could change up hella so how Hella's at least defined from like pro level or like very, very high level is that she's a she's actually a pressure negative character. And what I mean by that is the entire cycle of a Hella in the first, you know, twenty seconds of a game is to just set up an angle. You're not poking down main like Bucky. You're not shooting like Elsa. So what does that mean? Your team is literally in a five V six. Like that's what it actually is. But it's all for this massive spike in payoff, right? You like

You spend ten seconds, twelve seconds on this flank, you find the angle, then you get the value. Now you could you could replace that if you wanted to, but right now she doesn't do any damage to tanks relative to like like like a bucky, like spamming just like body shots down main. If you wanted to, you could change that. You could say, Okay, we're gonna reduce her damage. We're gonna increase her her her like front line damage, her frontline maybe sustain even. and I think that's kind of what they did with Gene Gray. Like that's kind of what she is. So like

KPXCHRIS (01:28:06.404)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:28:06.905)
We could take her away, but like this is her identity as it is now. If you removed it, I mean that that's but you're basically gonna move her towards other characters. That's kind of the homogenizing thing we're talking about a little bit.

CaptainCoach (01:28:16.687)
I I I see what you're saying, but she can still just go down main choke and f like I I disagree with you saying that she she can't find success. Like I think she can, like

Coach Mills (01:28:25.813)
Is she better than Elsa or or Gene at that or widow at that? She's like weaker than all those at least.

CaptainCoach (01:28:30.413)
No. But that to me, like I I don't think comparing someone who does something similar to you is is necessarily like a viable way to gauge balance too. Cause it's like like okay, so like hella into a triple comp, any kind of like brawl is just on you know, like you just win if you just walk dumbing. You don't have to think, you don't have to do anything.

ApexDabi (01:28:31.288)
No.

CaptainCoach (01:28:54.865)
'Cause you I mean, you just overwhelm them with damage like a thing or a dy even a dino right now pretty much can't walk up into triple DPS. Yeah, you pretty much can't do it. So the so that whole like gameplay loop, I get what you're saying. Like go off to the side, just one tap the heel ish. You don't really need to do that if you just do more damage than they heal. And I I think that is something that they could potentially look y I mean, you you raise a good point, 'cause yeah, if you don't go and go for that one shot, the the ramp up that I'm describing would it would probably be probably be worse for the

ApexDabi (01:29:22.339)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:29:22.981)
the type of comp that I'm describing. So, you know, I mean, you are kind of poking holes in my in my argument a little bit, I I guess, but

Coach Mills (01:29:29.099)
It's it's interesting 'cause this this is just a niche that they want her to have. I think there's ways to t tweak her within that niche and then there's ways to remove her from the niche. Like like a it kind of just depends on what you want. Like

CaptainCoach (01:29:38.192)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:29:41.189)
I mean, I think they've done a good job with other hit scan characters. Like I think if you took away Ellis' trap, I think, you know, without the giant AOE invisible trap, she'd be pretty balanced. same thing with Phoenix. They've balanced Phoenix in a way to where, you know, she's now bearable to play against versus when she came out, she's broken. you know, it just depends on what they want to do with Hella. I I I I kinda disagree. I don't really don't know where you would take Hella, but I really don't see that many good Hellas until you get to like

C two, C one, ELO around there? yeah. I mean everyone's good in the blade, but yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:30:11.355)
I mean she's she's good into blade, right? Like pretty good. Right. Right. I well for Elsa trap, I was thinking make it so you can see the traps, but there's a punishment for killing it. So you'll get kind of marked on the map and she can kind of track you. I think that'd be like a fair trade off where maybe you get like a damage buff as Elsa. So if you're kind of near your traps, w ready to follow up when they kill it, then y she can go and try to hunt you down. I think that'd be interesting, kind of fulfill our hero fantasy a little bit. But

KPXCHRIS (01:30:25.572)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:30:39.345)
Yeah, I know I totally agree with that. Like that mechanic is also not fun. You you get hit by it once, you're pretty much just dead. Like and and and things like that are s way too powerful in a in a game where the sustained, you know.

KPXCHRIS (01:30:45.422)
Yeah. But like

At the same time though, it's like playing devil's advocate, cause what really are the other answers to dive in this game, other than like what, Elsa Bucky? Like Namor Squids, yeah, I guess.

Coach Mills (01:31:01.913)
I mean i everything, dude. There's so much. There's so much.

ApexDabi (01:31:04.308)
Everything. I is it it's a C C I mean everyone's got C C now. Literally everyone's got C C I

CaptainCoach (01:31:04.965)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:31:09.016)
I mean I mean, so if like a venom or a venom and daredevil Angelus diving your back line, like what do you

Coach Mills (01:31:16.653)
Yeah, you you're your your daredevil went ten seconds before you and died. Okay, now you're in there by yourself. That's I that's how it isn't ranked. In coordinate it it okay, well that's the thing, is that like that's the gatekeeping window is like that's not you're not getting that. Like not really.

KPXCHRIS (01:31:23.246)
No, I'm talking about I'm talking about like like coordinated yeah, coordinated dive, yeah.

Yeah.

ApexDabi (01:31:31.171)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:31:32.178)
I was I was running I I got into a game with Snake Case, top five hundred, rank one venom. It w it yeah, guys guys just insane at the game. We were I think we were running Hulk, Venom, and I think we had one other diver. I can't remember what it was, maybe it was a Spider Man. And we were th we were actually three two oneing, coordinating our dives, going in, and it was Cloakendagger, Jubilee. They just sat in their area healing. Their health bars didn't drop below fifty percent.

Coach Mills (01:31:38.734)
They go

KPXCHRIS (01:31:42.084)
The

CaptainCoach (01:32:00.995)
It it was there was nothing we could do. So to say that like I don't know. I I don't think you really need too many counters to dive if you have competent support play for the most part. That's just my opinion. I maybe

KPXCHRIS (01:32:10.704)
I mean, I say that because in the creator tournament I played in against you, you know how every team was dive, right? Like we're playing with like all the creators who have like two hundred plus hours and all these dive heroes and we're just getting like we like I think our team was like the only team I think your team actually didn't have dive either, coach with

CaptainCoach (01:32:29.915)
We we ran triple triple healer like like brawl with like a psylock. Like we were it was Yeah. But we weren't w

KPXCHRIS (01:32:34.446)
Yeah. you guys no, you guys did have Sylock on dive. I forgot you could have blocked by mode. But yeah, we were the only team with like no dive players. So we're just sitting there suffering, getting dived the entire the the entire time. And we're like I'm vaudeville on my coach and we're watching these like perfect three two one. It's like Cap, Hulk, Magic, Side and our back lines, just one shot our supports before that that they can even react.

Coach Mills (01:32:43.668)
Hey yeah.

Coach Mills (01:32:58.401)
Well, the the problem is triple triple sub playing triple support properly and perfectly is actually hard. So, like, as an example, if the Venom goes in on a soft dive and you pop soul bond and and lamps at the same time, he's leaving, you're he's coming back ten seconds later and y'all are all fucking dead. You have no way to survive anymore. And but like you have to communicate that, like that requires coordination in the same way that the dive does, you know, like so in some ways more. It's like you have to be disciplined, like.

KPXCHRIS (01:33:04.047)
Yeah, it is.

KPXCHRIS (01:33:14.586)
Yeah. Yeah.

ApexDabi (01:33:14.818)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:33:25.111)
You use it, I'm gonna save it, then I'm gonna use it, you're gonna save it. I mean it's

KPXCHRIS (01:33:25.156)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:33:29.614)
Well, yeah, they've also nerfed Venom too, so

ApexDabi (01:33:29.718)
And also it's also like anticipating the dive too. Like if you haven't been dove by Venom or Spide and you like if you know what their comp is and you haven't been dove in ten seconds, it's probably coming. And you probably should look up and be like, Where are they? But that's you're not gonna get that in ranked. In a ranked, they're just gonna Where's my tank? Let me heal my tank. If I'm getting dove, let me scream at my tank to peel, or scream at whoever can peel, right? They're not anticipating it coming, so they

Coach Mills (01:33:41.407)
Yes guys.

ApexDabi (01:33:58.913)
You know, by the time that they're telling they're asking you for help, it's too late. Like it's just way too late to do anything about it.

KPXCHRIS (01:34:03.247)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:34:04.367)
Right. So like run a comparison, I was also playing with Team Captain recently as well. We were duoing and we were running the Venom Gore. And that was a totally a totally different story because the level of coordination, we were actually duo queuing and it was it totally changed it. Right. So I think we played like seven games, lost like one, and it was just three to one go. Okay, then we would say, you know, and Mills, you do too when we play. Okay, this is a soft dive, you know, we're not really committing. And and that level of coordination, just that little extra completely

Flips the the matchup. I mean, I obviously I I think gore is a little better. And and that is, I think, the the ultimate problem that Netties has really been having when it comes to balancing these heroes. And it's why I think it's so important to make sure they have clear and definable weaknesses and windows of opportunity where there can be counterattack. Because someone like, you know, we go back to the cloaked Jubilee, they just pop their area of healing. They're immune to dying. You pretty much at that point go out, tr tr look for a kill somewhere else. But that is just so much.

KPXCHRIS (01:34:36.346)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:35:03.577)
of a of a coordination barrier for the average player.

KPXCHRIS (01:35:07.168)
elephant in the room. we do have to talk about all of the controversy going on with rivals. Yeah, I already know you're about to get a million comments about this, but hold on, let me run to the bathroom really quick and then I come back. We can we can go over everything.

Coach Mills (01:35:13.379)
Hundred percent.

ApexDabi (01:35:14.142)
I agree a hundred percent. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:35:20.687)
Yeah, yeah, sure. I'm gonna do I'm gonna do it too, actually.

Coach Mills (01:35:24.345)
I'm just gonna stare at Dobby. yeah. Fake controversy. What does does does jet fuel does jet fuel melt still beams too or or wait, what was it? Do you know what I'm talking about? shit.

ApexDabi (01:35:24.876)
Well, it's just me me me and you, Mills. Me and you. So about that EOM man. About that EOM.

CaptainCoach (01:35:27.289)
don't

ApexDabi (01:35:32.654)
What do we what what's what are your thoughts? You still you still dying on that hill that it's not real?

CaptainCoach (01:35:37.231)
I think

ApexDabi (01:35:40.398)
I'm not gonna unpack that because I'm I'm of Arab descent. So I'm not gonna unpack that. I have very strong emotions, so I'm not gonna say nothing.

I am I am Arab, yeah, so sorry. Sorry about that. It it might it might it might melt steel beams. Might melt steel beams. but yeah, no, I listen, I know people call me crazy. They I'm I am waiting for the day that it comes out that there is a version of EOMM and I get to play the I told you card. Dude, listen, I'm I I I'm

Coach Mills (01:35:58.746)
He said sorry Well Well my

Coach Mills (01:36:07.063)
That's crazy. I didn't know that's funny though.

Coach Mills (01:36:17.241)
And you're in your when you're when you're dreaming, when you're when you're writing your fanfic I'm just gonna spike Bro, I I I literally fight with coach I fight with coach about this every day. Like literally every day. I I've probably fought with them more times than you know.

ApexDabi (01:36:24.65)
I'm not crazy. I promise you it's real. I promise. I promise, Doc.

ApexDabi (01:36:34.72)
Yeah. It it's a it's it's an interesting topic. but I I don't know, I think it's you know, beating a dead horse, but

Coach Mills (01:36:43.103)
D do you feel do you does your does your engagement feel optimized to you? shit.

ApexDabi (01:36:47.916)
No. I feel like it's dialed at it like a ten, dude. I listen, and the crazy thing is, it people are not gonna agree with me, but if it's a live service free-to-play game, I think it needs it. I think in order for it to thrive, I think it needs it. Because if they're gonna give you everything for free and the ability to earn skins for free, and to basically you never have to spend a dime, and you could eventually, like just through playtime and just through buying those like

Coach Mills (01:37:01.023)
Okay. no. we're cooked.

ApexDabi (01:37:14.616)
Five dollar passes, you get those coins to get whatever skin you want. They don't like if there's enough incentive for you to just play the game and earn currency through that way, I feel as though they have to add that. Because there's a lot of people that just don't spend money. They'll dump in a thousand hours, but they'll never spend a dime. They'll just keep grinding t chrono tokens or whatever. Sorry, I'm not gonna hijack with EOM. Let's get back to the real topic. Like actual genuine problems. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:37:39.801)
No, no. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Captain Coach creates it in his lab. Anyways, sorry, go on Chris. So what's what's the what is the can you summarize the drama for those that might not have a like a pulse on the drama and then talk about it from your perspective?

CaptainCoach (01:37:40.843)
The EOMM is real. It's real.

KPXCHRIS (01:37:40.868)
The

ApexDabi (01:37:44.511)
KPXCHRIS (01:37:45.176)
ApexDabi (01:37:47.906)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:37:59.547)
Yeah, so it's just been a long series of events that have added up over the course of like the last year with Neties. I think it all started with the disco skins. to where, you know, this is historically kind of like a black cultural thing and none of the black characters got disco skins and random people are getting disco skins and stuff like that, right? And so that's like kind of the first transgression. The second one was all the wedding skins are legendary. The only ones that weren't legendary were

BP and Storm. Okay. That's the second the the second thing, right? The third thing is the blade shackles free spray, which incredibly poor taste. Like I don't think that was inherently like super racist, but it's just like kind of culturally ignorant to where where's your PR team? Why are you why are you doing this? Right. no, I forgot. No, they they chain blade up in black history. No, that was the first thing. I remember posting about that too. in Black History Month.

Coach Mills (01:38:43.659)
Right.

ApexDabi (01:38:44.908)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (01:38:51.252)
hold on. Let me let me let me give you one more. All of those skins for the summer skins were super aggressive for all the other or for for Storm. She was like battling and all the other ones were just chilling. I was like, That's a little we that caught me off guard. I was like, why they all sipping my ties and she's out here like, you know, fighting the X Men or something. Like I I don't understand why the MVP's that way.

KPXCHRIS (01:39:04.516)
Yeah. It's

KPXCHRIS (01:39:15.642)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:39:15.761)
Can we get a a s a picture of that? Actually, I'm kinda curious. Maybe I'll I'll find it while you keep going, Chris.

KPXCHRIS (01:39:19.63)
Yeah, just yeah, compare the the the storm skin to the other skins. but yeah, no, they chain blade up in black history, the disco skins, the BP and Storm wedding skins, the storm summer skin. and then the newest one was the Emma Spray to where, you know, white queen getting an Egyptian skin and then she has two black figures behind her kind of serving her, which was referenced to Cleopatra, but in the Cleopatra image that they referenced, you know, they were fair skinned and stuff like that. So it's like, you know.

ApexDabi (01:39:23.619)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:39:49.317)
How many times are you gonna have to say like it's a coincidence? Right. Like it's just been too many times to where there's kind of like a pattern to the behavior. And it all got kind of set off with the SHIGO and Camden situation, to where Camden said that he is always gonna throw a racist game. And he threw a game because somebody had

used a microaggression of saying, go back to two K. I don't remember exactly what he said, but it was something along the lines of, you know, you're a two K player, go back to playing two K. And if anybody doesn't know two K, it's a basketball game and it's a black content creator. Actually, no, no.

CaptainCoach (01:40:22.799)
Ye Ishigo said that? 'Cause

Coach Mills (01:40:26.657)
No, so so just just just so real quick. basically what happened is that someone said that to who who was the one with Ichigo? It was Camden, right? Yeah, it's Cam it they they said that to Camden, and then Camden was like, Yeah, screw this, I'm just running this game down. And then Ichigo was basically like was like really criticized and went in on Camden. And that's what blew up.

KPXCHRIS (01:40:39.052)
yeah, it was Camden. Well yeah, they they're in the

KPXCHRIS (01:40:45.509)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:40:51.972)
Yeah. And and so but the the the conversation wasn't necessarily about Ishigo, like yeah, he did catch a little bit of hate because he was ignorant. The conversation turned into, is it okay to throw a racist game? Right. And the answer from half the community or most community was a resounding yes, right? Everybody was like, Yeah, if somebody's being racist to me, you're not getting ELO, you're gonna face consequences. and then you know

CaptainCoach (01:40:54.135)
'cause I was

KPXCHRIS (01:41:17.986)
A few days later, after everybody's talking about that, Rivals comes out and says, Hey guys, now is the time we're gonna publish a a a tweet saying we're gonna publish or punish people who are throwing. Right. But we've been asking for punishments for throwers for the last year and a half, right? And you pick the time when all the black content creators, which Rivals does have one of the biggest content black content creator bases out of any game, I'm pretty sure, or g a game like this, right?

You're gonna pick now the time to to to post that, right? Like it's it's crazy. and so all of this is kind of just added up. And the kind of tipping point was when they figured out that apparently if you go into the Rivals Discord with a Gaza tag, they automatically just ban you, for political reasons and stuff like that. So yeah, Rivals has historically been doing a lot of like

not like overtly racist things but kind of microaggressive things that the community has kind of called out every time and they aren't really kind of stepping forward to address it and they aren't really stepping forward to like really punish the people who are saying like racial slurs even harder. And also I I post my video about it too. They removed the report option for hate speech, but you know people are saying that was a translation error. Right. So it's like how many mistakes can

can rivals make before coming forward and taking accountability, right?

Coach Mills (01:42:43.501)
And I think on top recently, I know that Rio Rio got banned for a year. you know, someone was saying racial stuff towards him. He cursed them back. He got banned. He, you know, I mean, he he even admitted that he went crazy, but he he didn't say anything racial. And the guy that was racial got no bans at all. He's you know, just nothing. And then I saw recently with with Raizu, or Rice, Einfist player, Risu.

KPXCHRIS (01:42:52.666)
Yeah. Defending themselves. Yeah.

ApexDabi (01:42:53.539)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:43:02.059)
Got no bends, yep.

ApexDabi (01:43:04.493)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:43:11.396)
Ricey, yeah, he's Ironfo yeah, Iron First guy. Mike one.

Coach Mills (01:43:12.193)
Yeah, yeah. He and and it's you know the i it's it's kind of hard. I I feel like it's weird in the situation. So the it was very similar situation to the to the Rio situation. because it feels like so Netties has like an automated system that like detects certain language and then they'll ban you. I d it it it has a hard time deducing what

KPXCHRIS (01:43:31.066)
Yeah. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:43:37.161)
is that language or maybe the system's bad or maybe we shouldn't even have a system. I'm curious what you think about that because like like like as an example, they d the system definitely flagged Rice because he said the N word. and and that's why they flagged him, but it's like, you know, he was obviously defending himself and and people say all kinds of racist stuff that's not a curse word. It's like it's like a like a

KPXCHRIS (01:43:50.405)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:43:51.12)
I mean

ApexDabi (01:43:55.99)
Mm-hmm.

KPXCHRIS (01:43:56.165)
Yeah. no, but the other thing is like, they also banned you from being able to talk about racism in the rivals Discord. I don't know if you guys have seen that. Every time you try to talk about the game being racist, they just ban you for even critiquing it that way. And then Danny Ku has been blocking people on Twitter for bringing up the storm skin and stuff like that. but yeah, in terms of answering your automated system question, I mean, obviously for there to be thousands of games running at the same time, you would need an automated system.

The clarification from rival's point of view would just for them to be come forward and say, hey, you know, we're gonna make it harder for people to be racist, and we're gonna also mark out a bunch of the other smaller racial epithets and stuff like that that people say often. So I don't know why they've been so silent on the whole situation. because I remember like the last like kind of big thing that everybody kind of popped off on was E O

And then they made a whole video talking about how EOM was fake. so like where's the video addressing the history of like kind of racial issues that you know you've garnered and where is the accountability or where's like the you know moving forward? Because, you know, I like this game, you know, for as as bad as Blade has been treated. Me and a lot of other black content creators do like this game. We do like the space that they've created. We just hope for nettties to wanna fix the game and wanna say something or do anything.

But again, it's just been radio silence.

Coach Mills (01:45:27.725)
Do you think that that so so I I I have two p two questions to you. First the first one is do you think that Netes has a problem understanding cultural differences? and a yeah. Okay.

KPXCHRIS (01:45:36.76)
Absolutely. no, a thousand percent. Like bruh, they they like they chain blade up in Black History Month, like and then didn't really I I and didn't release him.

ApexDabi (01:45:38.648)
Yeah. Absolutely.

Coach Mills (01:45:42.689)
Right. But so I guess my question to you is do you think it's coming from malice or ignorance? Like I'm not saying either of them is acceptable, but I'm saying

ApexDabi (01:45:43.693)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:45:49.968)
See, I would have said I would have said ignorance the first three times. And then there was another three times and another two times. So at this point it's definitely some unconscious malice going on. Or maybe they need a a a PR team to just go through their changes or something. Like there needs to be some.

CaptainCoach (01:45:51.865)
Mm

KPXCHRIS (01:46:16.698)
person or some team that is going through the change. Because like, not to like, you know, shit on nutties too much. Like they've actually gotten some black things right. For instance, they got Blades Waves right. They got Cloak wearing a do-rag and stuff like that. They got the black hairstyles right in some, in some instances. Like they're not doing everything wrong. So I don't think they're speci specifically being malicious about everything, but the ignorance has turned into malice because you can't have one of the biggest black

creator basis of all time and all the black creators are calling you out every time and you're still not learning from it. Right. Like we're all partners. Like they the the partner Discord watches our videos. Like they know everything we're posting.

CaptainCoach (01:47:01.805)
I I would even offer a a third reason, Mills, you know, malice or ignorance. I would offer the I I think there's a a bit of a profit incentive for them to not really try to publicly talk about this kind of stuff and and like j Yeah, so like right, like you think of okay, like the banning system.

KPXCHRIS (01:47:16.624)
I said that too. Now that's smart, yeah. It's rage bait.

CaptainCoach (01:47:24.921)
You know, Mills, you say like coded language doesn't really get picked up by the system. If they threw enough money at something like that either through manual reports, they they could easily solve that problem.

Coach Mills (01:47:35.351)
It doesn't have to be automated either. Like they c they could just do it manually. If they had stricter stricter penetrations it, you

CaptainCoach (01:47:38.758)
That's what that's what I'm saying. but but obviously okay, so where's the profit motive in that? Well, if they just do it automated, that's obviously less money that they have to put into their game that they can use on other things. But also, if you ban a lot of people, I and and I'm not saying this is like Net Easy's view on how they view race and toxicity in games, but you're going to lose part of your player base. And i those are not the types of people we should pr be protecting, i is is the the obvious argument. So the fact of the matter is

And it's I don't think it's just the report system. I think it's you've made the point about skins. I made kind of mentioned balance at the start. Like if it feels that way, I don't think it it really matters if if NetEase is going out of their way to say or do something racist if it feels that way. To me, like what difference does it make? Because right now what I'm seeing all around the the community is a lot of these, you know, black content creators like friends of mine are are really they feel disgusted to play the game right now.

And I and I think pick and roll is one that has really been voicing his opinion. I I think it it is such an easy thing to just go and be like, hey, we we hear you. And and the fact that they're not doing that is is ridiculous to me. It's at it's ridiculous. It's it's to me the the fact that they're not saying anything at this point, to me, that's a problem. Like everything else you said, yeah, I I do agree with what you said, Chris. I I do think it's some c unconscious malice. Maybe it's like like cultural thing, just you know obviously like there's definitely

Coach Mills (01:48:47.705)
Percent.

KPXCHRIS (01:48:48.868)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (01:48:51.48)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:48:51.586)
Yeah, it's it's insane.

KPXCHRIS (01:49:06.234)
Disconnect somewhere,

CaptainCoach (01:49:07.291)
b big cultural translation differences. But I I at this point it's like, dude, you gotta you gotta you gotta say something. Like what are we doing? Like it it I've noticed I've noticed it like the toxicity and ranked in that way very bad lately, personally, but

ApexDabi (01:49:14.744)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:49:18.562)
And

It's it's been kind of insane just how radio silent they've been. I don't think I've ever seen them like completely this radio silent. And I think

ApexDabi (01:49:28.864)
I think my I I think I've I've my take is that they might genuine because it's as I I would argue it's just as big as the EOMM thing, if not bigger, because it's the creators. Like it's w I feel like it's bigger because I don't think a tweet I I'm I'm speculating. I'm not saying this is I this is pure sp this is my what I think is they're doing is I don't think a tweet is gonna suffice and I think they should just say

KPXCHRIS (01:49:41.497)
It's definitely bigger.

ApexDabi (01:49:58.668)
We understand you. Like they should say something. Even if they think it's not gonna suffice. I think they might be going around going the EOMM route and just waiting until the next dev update to address. But it doesn't make sense. Like I I I feel like that if that is what the route they're going, it doesn't make sense. Like I don't know why they're not even saying, sorry, we he we hear you. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:50:11.819)
Yeah. How how how how hard would it be for them to s yeah, they c they could just say like we see the complaints, we hear what you're saying, we're working on a comprehensive solution and we'll be back with you shortly. Like something. Instead of instead of just being like la la la la la la la you know, like what the fuck is that?

KPXCHRIS (01:50:12.354)
I and and and again, yeah.

ApexDabi (01:50:25.974)
I agree. Hundred percent. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. And then like it yeah. So that's what I'm saying yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:50:27.418)
Two seconds, yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:50:32.729)
I I think every day that goes by it it becomes more and more true, sadly. Like I I I truly 'cause at a certain point you can't have this like translation or cultural thing be be an excuse, like, okay, take some time, assess the situation. Okay, like what what are we doing?

KPXCHRIS (01:50:32.911)
And and

ApexDabi (01:50:36.577)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (01:50:42.402)
Yeah, I agree.

Coach Mills (01:50:45.335)
It's not it's not like they can't hire like a fucking cultural HR department. Like they have infinite money, inf like they can they can fix this problem with money and it's like if that's the case, like Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

ApexDabi (01:50:46.563)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (01:50:56.256)
One of the few things that money can fix is literally having a PR team in every region. Like I pocket watch a lot of what these like companies make because I I want to know it correlates to the success and how fast that they can act to situations like this. So when I see that you're making this kind of money on the 20th Luna skin, and you're just you don't have like a US team that specifically handles all

CaptainCoach (01:50:59.067)
Four shit

CaptainCoach (01:51:04.337)
And that's all

ApexDabi (01:51:25.002)
all of these like, you know, the these problems that people are are are asking for solutions for, it it's silly to me. It's like at what point you've made so much money, why are we not acting? Like I don't underst it it it's beyond me.

KPXCHRIS (01:51:39.066)
Well, have you guys seen the the Converse ad?

ApexDabi (01:51:43.83)
Yeah, and and even that yeah, I saw that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:51:45.465)
if you guys want to look up the Converse ad, it's basically like an ad that is hinting at a black person being killed by someone in the KKK, but it's like very like unconscious and like very like slight that you're you're you're not gonna notice. But a lot of the people online were saying that, the Converse is racist, right? Converse is, you know, racist company and they're doing this. But I I you know, I I think it's just rage bait marketing.

Coach Mills (01:52:00.792)
I think I have seen that, yeah.

ApexDabi (01:52:02.221)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:52:15.128)
Right. I think they knew it was going to be interpreted that way. They knew it was going go viral. And the amount of virality that was generated from making that ad that they made far surpassed any amount of money they could have dumped into just posting billboards or ads online and stuff like that. And I think Rivals is low-key doing that too. I think that that they're doing controversial things on purpose because they know it's gonna go viral, because they know people are gonna make the TikToks, the

Reels, the YouTube videos about the controversial stuff they're doing and promote their game. for instance, like not even racial stuff aside, the cab skin, the cab summer skin, where you know, his his his his bulge was is a yeah, that that was all over Twitter, right? And you know, then they nerfed it, you know, a week later and stuff like that. But you can't tell me probably a thousand people in the office saw that skin being made and they they said, Okay, yeah, let's let's do this. Like they know what they're doing.

CaptainCoach (01:52:54.449)
Yeah. that was f for sure deliberate.

ApexDabi (01:52:56.088)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (01:52:59.469)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:53:10.511)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:53:13.198)
The same thing with the Emma skin, right? A thousand people who made that Emma Emma skin or Emma Spray and saw white queen getting served by black people, then they changed it a week later. Like at some point we have to just call out the fact that, you know, they're just rage baiting us and we're in a new era of marketing to where companies have realized that rage bait sells, right?

ApexDabi (01:53:13.539)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:53:14.15)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (01:53:23.48)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:53:38.053)
How do you think any of that is deliberate cultural messaging, trying to like sway people's opinions o about like anything? Like using the game as like a device to like influence public opinion? I know that's like some deep conspiracy and you know, it's like

KPXCHRIS (01:53:44.708)
And

KPXCHRIS (01:53:50.744)
No, I mean you can say about anything. I I think that gets too far beyond the point because then you know you get into that sort of thinking about everything's propaganda and Yeah everything everything everything's mind control and but I do I do find it genuinely insane that like okay wait like I understand from a community standpoint that you know you can't have a political discussion in the Discord, but

ApexDabi (01:53:53.143)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:53:54.436)
Okay.

CaptainCoach (01:53:58.767)
Right. Gotta ask got asked a question though. Gotta ask a question. Right.

ApexDabi (01:53:59.01)
Then you gotta put your tinfoil hat on and you're like, Deep state that's a deep state propaganda, yeah.

KPXCHRIS (01:54:21.698)
You have a IP about mutants being in the game and mutants going through racial allegories and you can't even talk about the situation in Palestine in their Discord, right? Like how do you have a game about people trying to help marginalized groups, but then you can't talk about it in the Discord? Like why like why there's like a a cognitive dissonance going on, right? Like

Coach Mills (01:54:44.981)
What? Well see I mean that's gonna okay I I I kinda want something I'll say something too after you.

ApexDabi (01:54:45.976)
Can I can I can I interject here?

ApexDabi (01:54:53.688)
Someone who is an immigrant myself and has dealt with the racism that comes with being Arab, I'm I mean I'm mixed, but but we're just gonna over whatever. I'm not gonna get into that. That's a whole another that's a I'm not gonna unpack that. But the fact I think let me collect myself because I want to be very careful what I say.

I think the people that are going to a gaming server to educate people about what is going on in Gaza and West Bank, I think a lot of them don't care. And what I mean is like time and place. Because a lot of them I feel as though if you're gonna if you wanna talk about this stuff and you wanna be proactive and you wanna I understand that.

Like I'm all for it. Help us. But help us in meaningful ways where your voice can be actually heard and used properly, which means like voting, calling your senator, c l contacting your local government, going to donate to humanitarian causes, really being out protesting, like really offering yourself and doing something that is proactive. I think a lot of the time a lot of people don't.

bandwagon, whatever is cool to be against, and it does more harm than good, especially in something like like in it's a gaming server. When you're going to a gaming server and people are talking about rivals and and whatever, I don't think you should be sitting there trying to educate 10 year old Timmy and 31 year old whatever about what's going on. Like they're not there to hear that. And I under

People, I'm I've been getting a lot of hate recently for this take. And I apologize for everybody that's gonna feel differently. But as someone who's literally gone through this exact thing, like I came to the US at the height of 9-11. I know what it's like to be bullied for being like I know what it's like. And this kind of it feels though some of these some of the creators and some of these people that are doing this in the Discord are doing it for attention and they're doing it to be.

ApexDabi (01:57:18.208)
It feels disen disingenuous. Is that is that a fair thing to say that some of these people are taking advantage of the pain that people are going through in order to gain sympathy or, you know, to be like, you're such a good person. my God. Like, does that make sense? Am I making sense here? Or is that just falling on deaf ears?

CaptainCoach (01:57:34.639)
Like per purposefully and purposefully incendiary behavior to kind of just start drama for attention or or like to further the motives?

ApexDabi (01:57:42.73)
Exactly, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And it it it's sometimes like I I feel like I don't know. Go ahead. I I don't wanna I don't wanna talk too much about it but

KPXCHRIS (01:57:52.896)
See

Coach Mills (01:57:53.645)
I'm gonna let you I'll you respond to that first before I say what I wanna say.

KPXCHRIS (01:57:57.328)
I mean, I just disagree. I think political discussion should have no boundaries and should be talked about anywhere and any place. Like I've said on my stream multiple times, like I kind of don't like the people who like say no politics on my stream, right? Cause I think that if gas is five dollars, the world is burning, you know, ICE is supporting people, like you should be talking about that, you should be conscious about that. You at the very minimum need to have a baseline understanding of what's going on inside in the world.

And you living in your little bubble isn't really gonna change that fact. So I think class consciousness comes first and foremost. And that has r rebounding effects that, you know, while everybody can't vote or everybody can't donate, everybody can't personally affect what's going on. having that knowledge and being able to talk about that and being able to talk to other people and spread that value does have long-term effects that are completely unpredictable, right?

But the step one is always going to be consciousness. The step one is always going to be you having a political awareness of the world and you living in that little bubble and saying that this is only a gaming Discord or this is only a gaming stream. We're not going to talk about anything outside going on going on the world right now. Like that's why the world has been isn't the place that it is right now, right? Ignorance has pervaded so much that, you know, I I don't wanna get too political, but you know, you know, climate change is at a point to where

Coach Mills (01:59:21.217)
Sure.

KPXCHRIS (01:59:25.858)
It's unreversible. Right. We're the we're about to witness the biggest El Nino event in history. And we also have Trump in office who just got rid of, you know, better mile per gallon cars and stuff like that. Right. Like the world is burning and you you know, you're gonna sit there and be in a little bubble? Like that's just only gonna make the problem worse.

Coach Mills (01:59:46.254)
So so here's here's what I will say to you, Chris. I I ac I really appreciate how studied you are and like you really have like a like a like a firm understanding of all this stuff. There's a couple things I'll say. So the first one about the Discord. I I I'm I'm I'm a hundred percent in agreement with basically everything else besides this. And my problem with this is that it's a slippery slope. What do I mean by that? So all the same arguments that you said, you know, everything you said, all the

all the stuff that's going on in the world, all the stuff that needs to be talked about. Someone that maybe they they're there's someone let let me give you like a pretty extreme example. Someone that is a PETA supporter. I'm guessing you eat meat. Do I I eat meat? I don't know if you eat meat. like can can they can they Right. Right, wait, well can can they spam PETA like the same images that PETA spams in that Discord? Why not?

KPXCHRIS (02:00:29.326)
Yeah, I actually have my f I have my philosophy degree, so I know all the arguments against eating meat. Yeah.

ApexDabi (02:00:30.134)
Yeah, I mean

ApexDabi (02:00:34.936)
Wait.

KPXCHRIS (02:00:39.182)
No. Yeah I it's

Coach Mills (02:00:40.917)
It you need a you need to wake up, you know hurting animals. Animals is causing CO two emissions. Like why why can't they spam that but but

KPXCHRIS (02:00:47.81)
It's it's inflammatory. It's that's it's the same thing with the people who are pro life and they spam the pictures of the fetuses and

Coach Mills (02:00:53.261)
But but but I'm I'm saying that if it it's it's either all okay or not okay. Cause it's like it's like it's not no no no no no wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait no No but that's the thing is it's like they are not equipped to sift through what is an okay or not okay opinion. Otherwise they become a political c discord. 'Cause like how are they supposed to know this type of conversation it's inflammatory, obviously, because it's inflaming people, that's fine, but this one is

KPXCHRIS (02:00:57.464)
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I I hard disagree. No, no. There's a way to have a proper discussion without

ApexDabi (02:00:57.742)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:01:20.809)
Is intentionally being inflammatory or this is too inflammatory. Like why why can they decide that the the the the Palestine arguments are okay or the Epstein stuff is okay and the PETA stuff is not? How is how are they possibly equipped to handle that kind of thing if you just allow like if you just allow political discourse? Cause like I understand what you're saying. I think Rivals is gonna like Marvel is sp especially is gonna run into this problem where it's like that's all the X-Men's about. Is like it's it's literally about all and like as the X-Men gets into MCU.

ApexDabi (02:01:45.75)
Yeah, literally. Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:01:49.867)
It's gonna be a fucking I mean it's gonna be a dumpster fire and like like discourse. Like I don't even wanna look at X. It's gonna be fucking like like a shit show. But I'm all I'm saying is like I I think that it's very important that like there are some places where things are talked about and there's some places where things are not. There are some places where things are controlled and organized, especially when it's like it's like this is the Discord in a lot of ways for like kids to find like groups to scrim with and like to hang out. They don't need to be blasted.

You know, whether it's correct or not, whether it's the right opinion to have or not, whether it's the popular opinion or not, they do not need to be blasted with those ideas in a place like that, that is not designed for that, in my personal opinion at all. Not even a little bit.

KPXCHRIS (02:02:32.058)
Well, I think there's a proper and improper way to have a conversation. And I think that as a Discord mod, you know, or having a whole team of people managing a Discord, you would manage an improper and proper discussion. Right. Like I I think it's very easy to tell when somebody's being a good faith about the argument or bad faith about the argument, right? You're like Yeah. Like

Coach Mills (02:02:51.929)
they're they've shown they're not good at they're not it good at reading through the lines at all. I mean they're like all these problems.

ApexDabi (02:02:54.286)
Yes and no. Like like no i i it yes and no. The I mean, we've all we've all we're all on Twitter, right? And we've all seen the amount of times that somebody will rage bait on Twitter. Like they'll they'll say a statement that is kind of factual, but then they'll throw bullshit in there. And it's like it's hard to it's hard to

KPXCHRIS (02:03:03.726)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (02:03:19.852)
To differentiate when you have that many people with that many differing opinions, especially with very strong ideologies. It is so extremely hard to sift through it because at what point does like where's the line, right? Cause I'm I'm saying, okay, everyone wants to say free Palestine, everyone and I like it's that's for me till the day I die, dog. Like I and I'm with I'm with all that. But why are we not saying free Sudan? Why are we not saying free Congo?

KPXCHRIS (02:03:24.432)
Of course.

ApexDabi (02:03:49.517)
Why are we not saying free the Muslims that are currently in re education camps in China? Like, why are we not saying all that? It's because people what's in front of them is what's most popular right now, Palestine, right? And so when they do stuff like this, it it harm it does more harm than good. Like this kind of energy that you if you genuinely want to help, it it almost feels like.

It it's it's hard to contain. Like there's no it doesn't stop. Like once it starts, it doesn't especially in a gaming server. Like it doesn't make sense. Like, why not do this somewhere else where there will be genuine impact? Like, do we genuinely think that NetEase is gonna have any kind of impact on like it it's not, it's not. And they're gonna shut it down because they're a private company, and like none of this is gonna make a single difference. It's all gonna burn out in a week, and then that's it. Everyone's gonna forget and it's gonna go back to normal.

Coach Mills (02:04:20.899)
The Jehovah's Witness

ApexDabi (02:04:49.962)
All that energy spent on a fucking Discord could be spent elsewhere in other socials. There's all of Twitter you could be doing this shit. All of Instagram, all of fucking Facebook, everywhere else, other than a gaming Discord. It just I don't know. I I'm I'm sorry. I'm passionate about it, but it's just like

KPXCHRIS (02:05:04.841)
d but do you do you think do you think that it's like slightly egregious for somebody to just even join with just the Gaza tag and then just get banned? Okay. Yeah.

ApexDabi (02:05:14.892)
No, absolutely not. It makes no fucking sense. I have the Moroccan flag. That's the other thing that I said. Like, why are we banning people for a fucking flag? That doesn't make sense to me in the slightest. I fucking fragged their shit when I saw that. I was like, this is the most out-of-touch shit ever. Like, and also, why's the other one, the the boogeyman? Why is that one allowed? And the Palestine one is not. Like, that doesn't fucking make sense to me. I I think it should stop at

Coach Mills (02:05:25.069)
Yeah, I mean that's that's idiotic. agreed.

KPXCHRIS (02:05:25.592)
Okay, yeah. Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (02:05:31.386)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (02:05:43.628)
The flag or whatever. If you're going to a place like where you like read the room, right? It's the same concept of like dark humor, right? You don't just crack the same jokes that you would with your friends with a random group of people. You don't know how they're gonna react. You don't know what they're gonna say. You can't control the outcome of that conversation. So you just don't do it because you know time and place. You gotta read the room like that. It's just not the place to be doing that shit.

KPXCHRIS (02:06:09.744)
Yeah. See, I see, I just I strongly disagree. I I think I I think I think in today's world, critical thinking is becoming more and more valuable every day as AI progresses. I'm sure you guys have seen the recent like viral tweet that happened on AI and how AI is like basically indistinguishable now. and so the internet is gonna get more and more warped, it's gonna get more and more

ApexDabi (02:06:15.01)
And that's okay. I and I'm yeah, I I yeah, I agree.

KPXCHRIS (02:06:40.154)
propagandized. And I think that the sole importance of what's gonna come down to the internet being feasible in the future is if people are critically minded enough to recognize what's fake news and what isn't news. Right. And a personal testament to, you know, critical thinking and stuff is the fact that like you say like, there's a time and place for information and politics to be discussed and people should go and search up their political stuff and they should go and talk at their political

ApexDabi (02:06:42.669)
I agree.

KPXCHRIS (02:07:08.666)
Discords or the political streams, stuff like that. But the moral of the fact is like people aren't doing that, right? People find their communities and they stay in their communities and they don't search out other communities and learn about politics and learn about the world and stuff like that. So they willingly stay ignorant and they willingly stay in these echo chambers that are then facilitated by TikTok algorithms, Instagram algorithms, YouTube algorithms, stuff like that. And a lot of that political discourse, a lot of stuff happening in the world isn't infiltrating them. Gaza was big enough to infiltrate everything because

Of the you know, kind of sheer things that they've been going through and stuff like that, where stuff like, you know, the Uyghurs and China and Sudan and hasn't kind of been big enough to infiltrate yet, but it's getting to that point to where it is, right? And so again, I think that class consciousness is the first step to making a more informed world. I think critical thought is a second step to, you know, making a more informed world. And I think that you're limiting critical thought and you're limiting class consciousness by facilitating these isolated echo chambers groups that

ApexDabi (02:07:41.806)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (02:07:49.175)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (02:08:07.157)
you know, go online and keep people ignorant and and keep people isolated and stuff like that.

CaptainCoach (02:08:10.243)
I I I I I I agree with them, Mills. I I I think Yeah, like I I I I think I think the algorithms and the rise of just a lot of people getting on the internet has caused with with all the information we have on history, what's going on in the world, I think it right now it's more divisive than ever. Like people are more split. And I think that is a direct result of exactly what

Coach Mills (02:08:10.872)
Yeah like

That's that's interesting. I don't I don't agree at all. I actually don't agree at all. I I'm I'm curious.

ApexDabi (02:08:36.312)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:08:40.401)
Chris is talking about.

KPXCHRIS (02:08:41.498)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (02:08:42.496)
It's a good point. Like it it's a fair point because it that's what they want at the end of the day is us fighting each other and not actually talking about the the topics that fucking matter and bringing it awareness and attention to them. Like that like the divert like them dividing us is the end goal.

CaptainCoach (02:08:58.875)
But but here's where I disagree. Like I like with you, Dobby, I don't think it's like that. I don't think it's deliberate. I think it's like a subconscious thing. But here here's where I I I think, Chris, where I think I disagree with you. games, movies, media, posting on TikTok. That's escapism. Okay, that's people trying to seek out content that lets them get away from the the rigors and stresses of everyday life and and the the news and stuff. What's to stop?

ApexDabi (02:09:18.168)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:09:29.179)
people like you and and all of us from just speaking with our wallets. Why not just quit if they're not reflecting your views? That to me is is really at the core of what capitalism and i is. So if you if you really want there to be change, w what's what would be your response to the argument to to just quit?

KPXCHRIS (02:09:48.206)
Like what what do you mean just quit quit everything?

CaptainCoach (02:09:49.637)
Like qu no, quit quit like rivals in this instance, if they're not you know, taking enough time to ad address these problems. Instead of injecting your opinions, which which I think i is there is like w worth in that, at the end of the day, I don't think it's gonna really do much more than if you had just quit the game and stopped buying skins, right?

KPXCHRIS (02:10:07.822)
Well, I I mean to to clarify my point, right? I think that, you know, I'm not saying everybody should be a political streamer. Everybody should only talk about politics, only talk about, you know, stuff happening in the world. But it doesn't hurt to mention it every once in a while. It doesn't hurt to maybe make a political joke every here and there. And like I Well, but h hold on, I'm wait, what we what do you mean?

Coach Mills (02:10:23.063)
Well, y I mean that's not that's not the same thing though. Or is what you said.

'Cause you you you said that no place should be like we don't talk politics on our stream. You said that like every every stream should be talking politics.

KPXCHRIS (02:10:37.166)
Well, yeah. I mean like like that that rule of saying that you're never gonna give your political opinion and stuff and you're never gonna talk politics, I think that is facilitating a lot of the ignorance happening in the world. But I I'm not saying that every streamer should be super, super political, talk about it twenty four seven. But when somebody brings it up or when something is happening in the world, I think it's important to talk about it. Yeah, yeah, you shouldn't be afraid to talk about it. Yeah, exactly, yeah.

Coach Mills (02:10:57.743)
you're saying they shouldn't be afraid to talk about it. Okay, okay. Like, let's give only a PR response. I see what you're saying. Okay, okay, okay. Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. No, no, no, that's what I'm that's what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

KPXCHRIS (02:11:03.458)
No, not just the PR response, but no, but but yeah, yeah, you should be conscious about it. Yeah.

ApexDabi (02:11:05.548)
No, like I I I think that's great. No, no, no. I think that's great because I I I used to say that all the time. When I first started streaming, I always said, I'm not gonna be a political streamer because that's not what I'm set out to do. I'm set out to make people laugh because sometimes, you know, my misfortune, my pain losing 20 games in a row is somebody else's joy, right? They come home, they're not turning the news on, they're turning Dobby stream on, right? And that's a re reality for a lot of us. So I used to say that all of the time.

But as I've gotten older and older, like you I've taken in new information and I've started to realize like a lot of this real world problems are leaking into this escapis escapism, right? These vices that people are running to so that they don't have to think about what's going on right now, right? But it's leaking into it and it's I used to not talk about it and I've always said that if it ever comes to where we are in this little bubble that we've created.

For for people that so that they can escape, I will talk about it. And I have. And I part of the reason why I don't even talk about what's happening with ICE a lot of the time is I'm a fucking immigrant. Like I can't fli I'm I genuinely can't fly anymore because I am afraid of literally being deported. Like every time that I go fly, I get randomly checked. No one fucking has to deal with that, but I have to deal with that. And I know that they check my phones and for the shit that I say online. So if I get

If I get randomly checked and they gripe my shit and they're like, look at the look at the way you're talking online. And they do that shit. I'm afraid to talk about it online. Like it it it fucking sucks. And I I don't I don't want to put myself in that position because I have people that rely on me. And I don't talk about my private life like that, but it it genuinely is. I don't, you know what I mean? I don't have the luxury of just not being randomly checked. Like, I don't have that.

It happens every fucking time without fail. The one time that I didn't, I was flying with my white homie. Who's the who's the who's the room the roommate? I flew with the homie, nothing. But I fly by myself every fucking time I get randomly ch so I don't talk about that shit online because I I'm a I'm afraid. Like I don't I don't want to. I try to and and I avoid it until I can't. And then I say something. So that's not me being like, I don't want to talk because I'm gonna lose viewers.

Coach Mills (02:13:06.677)
Okay.

KPXCHRIS (02:13:16.229)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (02:13:28.288)
I I don't really care about that. It's really like fear for my life and I know people depend on me and I I I don't wanna risk that. Does that make sense? So I think a lot of people are in that position too. Like there's a lot of immigrant streamers and a lot of them don't want to say anything.

Coach Mills (02:13:37.87)
percent.

KPXCHRIS (02:13:44.644)
I mean, and even now, you've shared your experience to thousands of people watching this who can now empathize and look at the world differently because of the discussion we're having, right? The the rebounding effects of us just talking about politics now and you have no idea who's listening. You have no idea you know, what someone can donate or what someone's gonna vote in the future, but the

ApexDabi (02:13:49.56)
I know.

KPXCHRIS (02:14:09.358)
resounding answer to politics is like, you know, it's always good to discuss it. And we didn't spend the entire time talking about it, but the hour that we did or thirty minutes that we did is exactly my point.

Coach Mills (02:14:21.869)
My thing, at least me personally, like, you know, I'm I'm never afraid to give my opinion about anything. People talk if people ask me a question on stream. But at the same time, like I I I do think of entertainment like not the podcast, 'cause this is a place for conversation. So we can talk about whatever we want here. But at least on my streams, like people like most of the people that watch my streams are like they're working, they're shitty nine to five. They just want they just want to watch some Thor. They don't want me to he they don't want to hear me talk about the real world problems that

They probably hear about twenty-four-seven all the time. They know about the real world problems. Like they don't need my fucking dumbass that plays video games for a living tell them about the real world. Like that's not my place. They know.

KPXCHRIS (02:14:58.992)
I mean, I don't have to eat vegetables. Like I don't wanna eat vegetables. Like sometimes you gotta just do stuff that

Coach Mills (02:15:03.341)
Well what do you mean? No but no but that's not what my stream is for. It's like it's like it it's it's entertainment. That's not what it i

ApexDabi (02:15:06.24)
I I also also also can I can I can I say some of some people aren't educated in these topics enough. Like and I yeah, like I I agree, you should be, and me me all of us we know what we're talking about loosely. We're not like we don't have PhDs in it, but we're well informed enough that we can talk about it loosely and kinda inform people to, you know, to do their own research and whatever, right? But a lot of people, they they're just they don't know shit.

KPXCHRIS (02:15:13.904)
Well, that's what I say, you should be. Like everybody should be. Yeah.

ApexDabi (02:15:35.043)
They read a headline and they think, this must be true. They don't double check their sources. They're not, you know, they're not going to Al Jazeera and and and and and Fox and CNN. They're not like going to all the, you know, the news outlets and like triple and quadruple checking their source. They're not doing that shit. They're reading a headline or they're misinformed or they're just bandwagoning like mob mentality. What everybody is saying is what you know what I mean? Like it's it's kinda like mob mentality. Like it's just like a hive mind thing.

Coach Mills (02:16:00.73)
I mean I'm all like Well that I think I think that could work both ways though. Like th like at at the end of the day I'm like I'm like what? Almost thirty fucking years old? It's not my job to lecture an eighteen year old guy that hasn't figured it out. Like they're still trying to figure out what they believe. I certainly didn't believe what I believe now when I was eighteen. Like I I needed to go through college, I needed to meet people, I needed to have people that fought with my ideals and then eventually I came to like some strong conclusions about things, but I wasn't like put under a fucking microscope.

KPXCHRIS (02:16:05.316)
I mean, I guess.

ApexDabi (02:16:20.727)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:16:30.111)
and like l lectured like publicly about what they like what I believed when I was eighteen. Just like it's not my job to do that now. I don't think that that actually helps. I I think that i if you do that wrong, you can actually hurt. You can push people to fucking you can actually push people to echo chambers. If if if if

CaptainCoach (02:16:40.378)
Mm.

CaptainCoach (02:16:46.745)
Yeah. I guess the argument i is like who to say who whose job it is. I think 'cause I guess as like a like a white guy growing up, I mean you're you're in in in America, you you hear a lot of stuff from a lot of your friends and and fathers and people that you know in in your neighborhood and it's just like you you grow up thinking that that that is the norm and and you r you you you realize the older you get that you know there's other people with different opinions that so I I I I I

ApexDabi (02:16:52.536)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:17:15.515)
do see the value in in what Chris is saying, but I I do think it's it's a responsibility that shouldn't be taken lightly and it's something that, you know, to bring it all back, should we be asking our companies to to be reflecting that or should w they just be about the the escapers of about the content?

KPXCHRIS (02:17:31.962)
I mean, you guys are over complicating it. I I don't think it's that really like hard to really say that. Is is it crazy to say that most people deserve a house? Like most people deserve water, most people deserve food. Like No, no, but like but like I i it's like I I understand. Like you're you're saying that like, you know, you feel as though you don't wanna

Coach Mills (02:17:46.297)
I mean that that's but that's not really what we're talking about though. Like

KPXCHRIS (02:17:55.512)
talk about it because you provide this sort of escapism and you don't have the sort of authority to really articulate the the political happenings of the world and stuff like that. But like I don't think you need to be, you know

Coach Mills (02:18:07.747)
Like like I think it's really cool that you do it and I think it's really awesome. Like I I I like I respect you for it and I think people that want that should go to your stream, but it doesn't make sense to I don't think it makes sense to like enforce your specific worldview there on every streamer and the company itself. It's like it it may maybe you you might want it, but I think it's unreasonable. Like I don't think it's I don't think it's a reasonable thing to think or want.

KPXCHRIS (02:18:11.621)
But but

KPXCHRIS (02:18:30.936)
It's unreasonable to want the world to be like more empathetic and

Coach Mills (02:18:33.889)
No. No, no, that's not what I'm saying either. I'm saying it's it's not reasonable for them to like you think that you can say whatever you want in that in that Discord and they're just p completely okay with it. Like we're talking about like Disney here. We're talking about Marvel here. Like you think that that's not heavily police like like speech policed and like opinion policed and there's like a million people that have to like green light every opinion. Like Like it it well, I'm just saying like it's it's not like there are things that I like

CaptainCoach (02:18:53.551)
Well it's it's a profit incentive, like I said.

KPXCHRIS (02:18:54.027)
no, of of course. No, of course, yeah.

Coach Mills (02:19:01.057)
Like I said, ninety-nine percent of the stuff I agree with you, and there's like actionable things we can talk about. With this specifically, I don't think that there's like a like I don't think it's reasonable. We we talk about it with balance all the time on this pod. Like, what's an actual reasonable thing for them to do? I don't think it's reasonable for you to just be like, Okay, you can never block any of this type of speech again. Like you'd have to let us have these conversations here. In fact, make a section in there for political discourse so that we can debate there.

every Friday let's let's have a conversation on on the fucking stage. It's just it it's just not reasonable. Like I don't think it's reasonable. It 'cause it's not gonna happen. Like like it doesn't matter how much you want it to.

KPXCHRIS (02:19:31.652)
Why why is it not reasonable?

KPXCHRIS (02:19:35.992)
Like but like but you you you see but you s you see how like that limits the potential of it actually happening? Like there is a world out there no but the but there there

Coach Mills (02:19:43.201)
No. It's n it it wouldn't happen no matter what I want it's a

CaptainCoach (02:19:46.095)
It goes back to what I was saying. Just don't don't play the game. Like don't buy the like don't support it.

KPXCHRIS (02:19:48.581)
There there's a world out there to where there's a political discord and you know it's properly run and people are having good faith discussions and it doesn't devolve into chaos and stuff like that. Like it's entirely possible. Like I I I don't think that, you know, it it's out of the realm of of possibility to say that. Well, yeah, I mean I mean, yeah, I it's it it doesn't hurt to bring up, it doesn't hurt to talk about. I'm always gonna, you know, talk about stuff like that. But I I don't have the, you know, solution to everything, but

Coach Mills (02:19:57.005)
Sure. Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:20:01.131)
I agree.

Coach Mills (02:20:05.178)
I just don't think it's gonna happen through Marvel. Like like I just I highly doubt. Like it

Coach Mills (02:20:12.663)
Well well true, but like I I guess like my thing is like I want like what are the a like what are the actual steps that Netties needs to do? And I and I'm like like the reasonable, actionable steps. 'Cause there are tons there's a laundry list of things that they need to do that we can it's not even that big of a deal to ask for. Like they should fucking do this shit.

CaptainCoach (02:20:14.682)
So

KPXCHRIS (02:20:31.108)
Yeah. stuff that he should do. I was actually thinking about this the other day too. I mean my resounding answer is just buff blade, right? Like he has yeah, like worst gun in the game, terrible ult. I also think they should either rework Storm and BP as well. I think Storm could be a support, but that's kind of a hot take. And then, you know, I think BP's kit is also really bad for the game. 'cause either

Coach Mills (02:20:41.185)
Let's fucking go. Make him not dog shit. Yeah, that'd be great.

KPXCHRIS (02:20:59.36)
it's super feast or famine, right? He's going in two tapping you quicker than you can react, or the BP's going in getting CC'd and dying. so I think they could rework BP into a brawler and stuff like that. But that's just like two kind of meta balance narratives for the black characters. obviously it goes a step forward with them hiring like a PR management firm or a a PR like just team to just go through some of the decisions that they're making and say like, hey, you know, this is okay or hey this is not okay. The second step

ApexDabi (02:21:13.314)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (02:21:27.706)
would also just to be more interactive with the community. Like they do watch our TikToks. They do watch our our videos and stuff like that, but they just choose to stay silent. It wouldn't be hard for them to just send a rep into the black community and be like, hey, let's get all the black content creators in Discord. Let's all talk it out. And you guys can say your grievances and we can say how do we fix this? Like, they have this mentality of we know how to fix everything ourselves. We're not going to say anything. I'm going to say we know silent until the passions come out. And obviously that hasn't been working and that can easily change. So

ApexDabi (02:21:33.804)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (02:21:57.374)
it just depends on how much they really wanna work for it or if they wanna work for it at all or if they wanna just continue the rage bay marketing that they've been doing historically. So I don't know.

CaptainCoach (02:22:05.903)
What do you guys think about the new map? The change subjects here.

Coach Mills (02:22:12.585)
that wait, that suc Wait, wait, wait, wait. Yeah. Bro.

ApexDabi (02:22:13.806)
Can I one more thing? I don't know if you guys saw what the mil what Malia posted, but I think from what I remember, Malia is actually talking to somebody at their PR team. They're gonna sit down and she asked the community, like, what do you want me to tell that like what are some of the kind of issues and questions do you want me to like bring up with who I sit down with from Neti's or whoever, whether it's Marvel or Neties.

CaptainCoach (02:22:27.205)
Okay.

ApexDabi (02:22:41.73)
But she is in contact with somebody from their PR team and whatever. And I I think that's a step in the right direction. But holy fuck, it's not enough. It's it's just not enough, in my opinion. I think they should have put out a tweet saying, hey, we're gonna cover this in a video. And then, you know, DevVision comes out 30 minute, you know, yap session about all the shit that's been going on and what they're gonna do moving forward, you know, providing us actual solutions and not just sticking their head in the sand.

CaptainCoach (02:22:48.837)
That's big news.

ApexDabi (02:23:10.24)
And pretending that it's not happening.

CaptainCoach (02:23:14.137)
Yeah, I I didn't know that. I know I know r R Rio is knows some of the devs. I wonder if they could they pr bring him into that conversation as well.

ApexDabi (02:23:21.005)
Yeah.

It it it's sad to see this because I genuinely do love Marvel and I do love Marvel Rivals and it's done a lot for the community and it's done a lot for a lot of creators, but it's it's genuinely depressing because I I feel like a lot of games have suffered this exact same issue and they've they did well hand like they handled it really well and they it was immediate. It was almost immediate. And I I think stuff like an honor system, what's happening in with Riot, right?

Like an honor system would be a great step forward. It would incentivize people to not be a shitty human being. Or else they can't talk or they can't play the game at all. Right? Like there's things that they can incorporate and they can learn from other games. Like I the biggest letdown is that they're not the first to make a hero shooter. So they should have seen what happened elsewhere and learned from it. They should have learned. They like we shouldn't all of us shouldn't even be having this conversation. Like

KPXCHRIS (02:23:55.62)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (02:24:02.255)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:24:14.741)
It's like it's like they're figuring out all this shit at the first time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (02:24:18.576)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (02:24:22.284)
This we shouldn't even be asking for this shit. That's the that's what breaks my heart is like, why are we we're a multi-billion dollar company. You saw what the competition did. Copy and paste and just improve. Like I why do we even have to be here having this discussion, trying to like educate them on what they're doing is fucking racist and what like I d it's it's it's so crazy to me that we're at this point in twenty twenty six that we we have to be the grown ups. Does that make sense? Like

Like I'm t I'm exhausted, dawg. I'm fucking exhausted. Like I

Coach Mills (02:24:51.757)
Well that well that that that that's why I I like it's I see so much there's there's a lot of dumb narratives out there. People are like, you wouldn't survive a cod lobby, you wouldn't survive a Halo Three, like people shit like that. Like it's so s the th the thing is the thing is R Riv Rivals has Rivals has less moderation than fucking Halo three did back in the day. Like they literally do and it was and you would think

KPXCHRIS (02:24:53.412)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (02:25:02.38)
I hate those comments. That's so stupid. No, bro. It's the same comments.

CaptainCoach (02:25:03.386)
Mm.

ApexDabi (02:25:03.402)
I hate that shit too bro, I hate that. Like they're fucking d I don't know man, I don't know.

Coach Mills (02:25:17.825)
Since I was twelve, so I I how fucking long ago was that? Seventeen years. You would think there was there was some fucking progress between two thousand five and today. Like you would think there would be a little bit of progress, but no, it's the sa it's the same. like I I like I don't understand why

CaptainCoach (02:25:22.961)
Like two thousand five, something like that. Three.

ApexDabi (02:25:32.536)
Same shit. I'm tired of it. I'm tired of like policing these companies. They should know better. They should know better. I we I I I know Chris mentioned he's got a philosophy degree, bro. I went to college for philosophy too. I studied quantum physics and philosophy. I shouldn't have to be sitting here like like you know, it shit is it's a waste of my time. You got billions of dollars. Hire people, damn it.

Coach Mills (02:25:42.927)
wait, you you wait, you have a philosophy degree?

KPXCHRIS (02:25:46.084)
what the heck? W.

Coach Mills (02:25:48.419)
Wait. I I was the philosophy major for three years.

KPXCHRIS (02:25:55.674)
Philosophy to greet a streamer pipeline, man. Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:25:57.421)
Wait, you you did philosophy too? yeah, I was yeah, I cause I was in philosophy for three years, switched to sociology, did one year, then dropped out. So I I never I never graduated, but I have I have f I think I have like t like fifteen hours. Like I could do one semester and graduate, but I'm just never I'm never I'm not doing that shit. Ooh, what how'd you get how'd you get a full ride?

ApexDabi (02:25:57.738)
Yeah, bro, like dude

ApexDabi (02:26:03.51)
I didn't even graduate. I I got to my I got to my fourth year and I didn't graduate. I had to drop out a

KPXCHRIS (02:26:08.268)
KPXCHRIS (02:26:12.526)
Yeah, I I luckily had a I had a full ride, so I just studied what I was interested in. I was I was a rank one debater in Alabama. I did debate team. I played football. I played football for about like eight years, nine years, and then I got tired of getting the brain damage and stuff. So nah. I got tired of cause I I'm from Alabama. So football in the South, football in the South is like taken really seriously. and so

ApexDabi (02:26:17.098)
Hell yeah, good stuff.

Coach Mills (02:26:22.147)
Let's fucking go. Holy shit.

Coach Mills (02:26:31.161)
C T E

ApexDabi (02:26:33.016)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (02:26:40.226)
It was like I was in AP classes. I was waking up at five AM and for morning workouts and I wasn't getting home until like eight PM and I was super exhausted. So my like freshman year, I was like kind of failing some classes because I just didn't have time to do homework. Life was all about football. so I quit, joined debate team, became really good at I did public forum debate and then I also Are you Mall Uin? I did Mall Uin too.

Coach Mills (02:26:58.489)
Let's fucking go.

Let's go. I did model United Nations. I don't know if you did any of that. let's fucking go.

ApexDabi (02:27:03.638)
I I don't know why it is, but I feel like I'm running into a lot of creators that are all somewhat either in a philosophy degree or like they're all debaters or they're all 'cause like I I you're you're genuinely like the fifth or sixth creator that's like, Yeah, I studied philosophy in college. I'm like, did we all just end up on rivals? Like did we like

Coach Mills (02:27:18.583)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, is we can we can really get a use out of our fucking our education. Like talking about like yeah.

KPXCHRIS (02:27:19.216)
Yeah, bro.

KPXCHRIS (02:27:26.306)
Yeah, I mean it's it's nice 'cause like honestly, I don't like understand how like I could be a streamer without having my like degree, right? 'Cause like I have infinite things to talk about. Like I can always yap infinitely about either my life experiences or the philosophy I've learned or the stuff that, you know, applies to rivals and stuff. So it's like, you know, it's just giving me fuel to to talk about. It's same thing with like Joe Bart. Joe Bart was a philosophy degree and he's been

ApexDabi (02:27:38.659)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (02:27:42.424)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (02:27:52.332)
Yep, yeah him t you tap you know ball okay okay all right yeah yeah yeah

Coach Mills (02:27:54.337)
really?

KPXCHRIS (02:27:55.311)
Yeah. He's been he's been going crazy with that too. Like that's that's kinda what I see myself doing as well, like long term. Like that's kind of my my praxis, which is kind of spreading consciousness and getting people to be more critically minded and stuff. So it's what I kinda Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:27:58.087)
That's not

ApexDabi (02:28:01.827)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:28:08.493)
No, I think

CaptainCoach (02:28:08.545)
There's definitely definitely an audience for that for sure.

Coach Mills (02:28:11.097)
One one thing I wanted to talk about is, you know, this is gonna get this is gonna get fucking netties and Marvel pissed off of me, but it is what it is. I think that I don't know if y'all have been watch I don't know if y'all watched the Superman movie or if you watch been watching lanterns, but I think like Lan Lanterns has been fucking incredible. And I think that like DC is like basically jumping face first into a lot of these, like the exact thing you're talking about, like a lot of these like real world issues. I mean, like th there's obviously like direct connections in the Superman movie to

KPXCHRIS (02:28:22.5)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (02:28:22.89)
Absolutely.

KPXCHRIS (02:28:25.466)
Course.

ApexDabi (02:28:25.568)
I mean just stellar.

Coach Mills (02:28:41.283)
The Palestinian conflict. There's obviously like tons of racial like it's it's directly integral to the characters and understanding Jon Stewart inside of Lanterns. And like they're tackling them in a direct way that I think Marvel has been afraid to for basically ever. And I don't think that Marvel can just keep playing this like little middle fence thing where they don't really talk about any real issues when we get to the the the mutants, because that's like

KPXCHRIS (02:28:57.402)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:29:07.645)
Literally the a direct part of the mutant experience is that. Like you cannot do the mutant experience without racism, without the problems, like the real world political problems in the country, 'cause that's literally it's like directly paralleled in the mutant like in the mutant storyline. So I'm I'm curious what y'all think about that. 'Cause I I right now I think DC is like crushing that part of it and Marvel is like still tiptoeing around it. Like they're like not it it's just like cool set pieces and like cool fighting, but it's like

None of the real world like actual problems and or like connecting it to like a superheroes.

ApexDabi (02:29:37.728)
It's just media literacy, dude. Media literacy is dead. I don't know if you've been seeing the reception of lanterns and how they tackled, you know, like when Jon Stewart's dad was asked, Are you afraid? And they were trying to explain to the alien that, you know, like it's of course he's afraid. He's a you know, he's a black man and fucking like a predominantly white like, yeah, he's gonna be afraid. And everybody on Twitter was like, Woke, woke. And it's like they they don't it's like

Coach Mills (02:29:53.657)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

KPXCHRIS (02:29:54.446)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:29:55.365)
Mm-hmm.

CaptainCoach (02:30:05.028)
No.

ApexDabi (02:30:06.316)
right over their fucking head like they don't understand that shit. And I think that's what Marvel's afraid of. Like they they don't wanna just dive like, you know, head first. They they're trying to really like, you know yeah.

KPXCHRIS (02:30:06.618)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (02:30:14.99)
I mean, they were they were saying the Spider Man movie was flat camera propaganda.

CaptainCoach (02:30:16.175)
So

Coach Mills (02:30:17.177)
They they they did they did Captain Marvel and got scared. They're like horrified. They're like it.

CaptainCoach (02:30:18.649)
Yeah, no, there's there's definitely

ApexDabi (02:30:22.742)
Yeah, it's just like I don't know.

CaptainCoach (02:30:24.751)
There there's definitely a big difference and I I think yeah, that media literacy goes a long way. You compare a show a fictional show like lanterns, which I agree, I like lanterns, ten out of ten. I think they're I I'm like hooked to a show. I mean, I'm a b I'm a big Lord of the Rings guy, what they did to Rings of Power. my God. Like that that is an ex that is an example of people trying to in inject their own policies into writing and and ruining like a like a well known beloved IP because of it. And that's like to me the wrong way to do it.

Coach Mills (02:30:36.589)
So good.

ApexDabi (02:30:41.73)
Yeah, th they butchered that shit.

KPXCHRIS (02:30:43.941)
Bro.

CaptainCoach (02:30:53.157)
And I I agree with you, Mills. Like I think DC they're not perfect, but they're they're doing a pretty damn good job.

KPXCHRIS (02:30:59.06)
but yeah, no, Rings of Power, bro. I tried watching that, it was like two hours of nothing. like it's and then you but but like you you you look it up, you look it up and it's like the most expensive TV show ever made. They they spent like a billion dollars on it or something. And like on what? Is it is just a money laundering? How's it making money for Amazon? But I do think DC is positioned to take over Marvel if James Gunn keeps going crazy.

ApexDabi (02:31:03.643)
Ass, bro. Genuine hot ass. I couldn't make it past 20 minutes. I was like, what am I what is this?

CaptainCoach (02:31:04.035)
It's terrible. It's terrible.

Coach Mills (02:31:05.909)
I I I I heard I heard from it. I couldn't I couldn't I didn't want to even

Coach Mills (02:31:13.165)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:31:13.457)
It's

ApexDabi (02:31:13.531)
Holy shit.

CaptainCoach (02:31:18.337)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (02:31:18.38)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:31:18.84)
Ha ha ha ha.

KPXCHRIS (02:31:28.272)
but I do think I No no no I I'm I'm I'm confident because DC I think to me, okay, DC has always kind of had better storylines and kind of a more serious universe than Marvel. And I think that the problem with DC is that, you know, its live action movies and TV shows have historically been very bad and kind of given to directors that don't have the approach or the seriousness required to to handle DC stuff.

Coach Mills (02:31:28.667)
well I I don't know about I don't know about all that, but they they don't have they don't have a game, but yeah.

ApexDabi (02:31:30.114)
The gun doesn't jam but it reloads. It does reload.

CaptainCoach (02:31:42.128)
I agree.

ApexDabi (02:31:55.074)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (02:31:56.081)
and so now that James Gunn has kind of been taking it seriously and James Gunn has been kinda cooking with the lanterns and and Superman and now you have Superman two coming out with Brainiac next year. Clayface coming out as well. I do think DC is positioned to I I I wouldn't I wan I wanna go back and say not yeah, no, Supergirl no, I I walked out of that movie halfway through. we we're gonna ignore that movie. No. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Supergirl Supergirl Supergirl was not

Coach Mills (02:32:07.341)
Man of tomorrow, yeah.

Coach Mills (02:32:13.601)
I I wish I wish Supergirl I wish Supergirl was better. I think that movie was not If that movie was a if that movie was a nine out of ten.

ApexDabi (02:32:19.948)
What you wait, you hated it? No, come on. I love Supergirl. Ever why is everyone hate it? What's like I what's this consensus? I don't understand.

CaptainCoach (02:32:22.699)
It I didn't like it either. I didn't like it either.

Coach Mills (02:32:26.603)
So I do I st I still ha I still have thirty minutes left in the movie because I was watching with my daughter and she fell asleep, but I almost fell asleep too. No, I'm scared. I it it's it's a lot of do nothing. Like it's a lot of do nothing. I I I I I have the comic that it's based on behind me, and that's like it's told so much better. Like like I don't really understand. Feels like they kind of just like read the source material and then like like AI'd it, cliff notes it, they're like, just kinda we'll use some of this.

KPXCHRIS (02:32:26.711)
It it was

KPXCHRIS (02:32:35.984)
Yeah. I think they wasted Lobo as a character too.

ApexDabi (02:32:51.438)
I think it's a solid it's a solid seven out of ten. I mean it's not it's not like it's not a banger, but it it's good. Like it introduces Lobo, you know.

KPXCHRIS (02:32:52.043)
but

Coach Mills (02:32:54.997)
Yeah, but that's not that's not it it needs to be a banger. Yeah, but

KPXCHRIS (02:33:00.62)
I I also think that like for racial instances, I think that DC is positioned to create like new popular black heroes that DC has kind of like never really had, right? Where like Marvel has had what Black Panther, Storm, Miles, and DC, like the most popular hero has been like what, Cyborg, Jon Stewart, which John Stewart has his own show. and then they James Gunn said they're making a a new Mr. Terrific show, which I think Mr. Terrific is cooler than I am.

ApexDabi (02:33:11.96)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:33:21.681)
John Stewart for me. I mean

KPXCHRIS (02:33:30.392)
So

ApexDabi (02:33:30.862)
And it's also not not necessarily like a black hero, but Blue Beetle came out recently and that was phenomenal. It was a very feel good family movie that you could take your family to and like it was very cause that's what Blue Beetle is. He's very family like oriented and that's the way the movie was portrayed. They did that phenomenally. So like they're doing a great job, like just really there's a lot of representation is what I'm trying to say. And they're not just changing the skin color of a character and then you know what I mean? It's not like, Captain America's black now. Like

Coach Mills (02:33:30.997)
I might my favorite

Coach Mills (02:33:39.097)
That's my that's my goat right there. That's ace.

KPXCHRIS (02:33:44.41)
The

Coach Mills (02:33:48.291)
They need to do

KPXCHRIS (02:33:48.299)
But then Yeah.

ApexDabi (02:34:00.024)
They're actually highlighting black characters and Asian c like, you know, they're uplifting them instead of just redesigning a character that already exists.

Coach Mills (02:34:08.013)
Versus the blade movie that got stuck in purgatory. Now the actor's no longer I was like, I'm actually pissed off, bro. Like

KPXCHRIS (02:34:10.862)
I was just about to say, I was I was just about to say, bro, yes. That he is a great actor and he said he flew to Atlanta. He had his family there for two years. He was training every he was training every day and got got canceled.

ApexDabi (02:34:11.34)
Don't get me started on that, bro. Greatest flop in history.

ApexDabi (02:34:21.71)
Trained for a year.

For a year, dude. Can you imagine throwing away a year? damn. Yeah. He's getting Green Book, right? Or is it Green Mile? Green Book?

Coach Mills (02:34:26.563)
And that and and he and and he's he's phenomenal as an actor. He's so phenomenal. I know he would fucking cr he would have crushed that shit.

KPXCHRIS (02:34:32.164)
Yeah, he was great as as Cottonmouth. That and then they they cancelled Wonderman as well with another great actor.

Coach Mills (02:34:35.595)
Yeah, green book. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Green green bo green one of them. With Aragon.

ApexDabi (02:34:41.771)
yeah, the I didn't see that. Is that good?

KPXCHRIS (02:34:44.302)
Yeah, it's good. It's it's it's yeah, it's great.

Coach Mills (02:34:44.865)
Wonder Man was fucking peak. It was actually one of my favorite T V shows. I I don't think it was I well I don't think it was to the level of Lanterns, but a much different kind of show. Much diff much different kind of show. But yeah, I Lancards to me is really, really good.

ApexDabi (02:34:46.744)
Hmm. I haven't seen it yet, no.

KPXCHRIS (02:34:52.697)
Yeah.

I also think a good superhero show that people don't bring up often is Watchmen. I was talking about it stream last week. Yeah. The Watchmen TV show. You bro, watch the T V show. The Watchmen TV show is great. I think it's probably one of the best superhero TV shows of all time.

ApexDabi (02:35:02.159)
Watchmen is good. Yeah, yeah, Watchmen is good.

Coach Mills (02:35:03.189)
So I I did not watch the sh I did not watch the T V show. I didn't watch it. You think it's good? Is it it 'cause I've read the I've read it and I've watched the movie. So like does it take place after or is it a prequel?

ApexDabi (02:35:09.346)
Yeah. It's top tier. It is top tier.

KPXCHRIS (02:35:17.358)
I think so. It's it's after the movie. So yeah.

Coach Mills (02:35:20.557)
Okay.

CaptainCoach (02:35:21.049)
I I like the movie. I actually saw that pretty recently. I'll definitely check that out.

KPXCHRIS (02:35:24.57)
Yeah. Check out the Watchman TV show. I thought penguin was all right. And then

Coach Mills (02:35:29.419)
I like Penguin a lot. It's pretty good.

ApexDabi (02:35:30.56)
I like Penguin a lot. I think it was super grounded. It was like a

CaptainCoach (02:35:30.597)
Yeah. I I I like Penguin.

KPXCHRIS (02:35:33.552)
But that's just, you know.

Coach Mills (02:35:36.759)
I mean it he it's just about a fucking mobster. I mean I mean he's just like a it's an interesting show to do. Man, I want them to do a static shock show, bro. my god. I did too. I did too. It's so sick.

ApexDabi (02:35:37.326)
Yeah.

Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (02:35:44.292)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:35:46.737)
bro, I grew up on Static Shuck. Me and my sister every day come home and watch it. Got rubber band, man, dude.

KPXCHRIS (02:35:49.252)
There.

KPXCHRIS (02:35:54.747)
Do you guys watch the DC animated movies at all? Have you guys seen the new the new Batman Ass reel?

Coach Mills (02:35:57.966)
Course, of course. I I watched B the the d you saw the brand new one? The night one?

ApexDabi (02:35:58.349)
Yes. Apocalypse. Yeah, yeah. Young Justice. All yeah. Dude, the Green Lantern show, the original one, slept on. Actually slept on. You get to see Green Lanterns, blue lanterns, yellow lanterns. Yeah, I mean, and it it is genuinely beautifully crafted. It's I think the two thousand eleven Green Lantern show.

CaptainCoach (02:35:58.823)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:36:03.044)
Injustice.

CaptainCoach (02:36:09.883)
Really?

CaptainCoach (02:36:14.65)
What's it called?

KPXCHRIS (02:36:15.364)
Wait, what movie?

CaptainCoach (02:36:20.367)
I think I'm getting recommended that one a lot and they want me to watch it.

Coach Mills (02:36:21.337)
Wha w when I So when I when I first got introduced to Green Lantern, I got first introduced to John Stewart. I didn't even know there was any other Green Lanterns. Like he was my first my very first Green Lantern when I was little. Because it was the one in the animated the animated show. Like you Yeah. Yeah. It was so sick. It is so sick. wait wait, wa Chris, what's your favorite what's your favorite animated animated D C movie out of all of

ApexDabi (02:36:24.235)
It's really good.

CaptainCoach (02:36:32.401)
Yeah, same.

ApexDabi (02:36:35.202)
Yes, the animated series. Yep, two thousand eleven. Yep. It's phenomenal, dude. Genuinely phenomenal.

KPXCHRIS (02:36:35.279)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:36:36.101)
Justice League, bro. Justice League was peak.

KPXCHRIS (02:36:48.624)
what's the one where he brings a bunch of I think Dark Side brings a bunch of the the Doomsdays and they fight the Justice League and they have to like with John Constantine, Apocalypse. Yeah, the three movies the three movies one when he showed up to Earth with all the doomsdays and they were all going crazy and they were just like ripping the just I was like, my god, like I didn't think it it would be that crazy. so probably that one.

ApexDabi (02:37:02.488)
Apocalypse? Apocalypse. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was apocalypse.

Coach Mills (02:37:02.766)
th that was the that was it was a part of a three movie series, I think. There was a

ApexDabi (02:37:12.088)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (02:37:17.976)
And then I again I just found out who Azrio is. So in in the in the most recent one, yeah, because my chat was like telling me, yo, Chris, like watch this trailer and we watched the trailer. Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:37:23.46)
in the in the in the most recent Batman one, right?

ApexDabi (02:37:24.35)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He took over Batman, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

ApexDabi (02:37:31.38)
He he's dripped out, bro. He's dripped out on some Templar shit. He got he got one of the best fits in DC too.

Coach Mills (02:37:35.319)
He is is sick. He's sick. I s

KPXCHRIS (02:37:37.732)
Yeah. I I've always said I think that D C has the potential of making like a kind of like the boys show to where you do like an injustice show, to where you just go through the evil Superman timeline and you go through the injustice, everybody fighting each other in a live action version of that. But

ApexDabi (02:37:47.255)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:37:52.619)
shit, okay.

ApexDabi (02:37:53.727)
like like

Coach Mills (02:37:56.121)
That'd be so sick if they did little comic stories like that in the that'd be sick. Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. the the Russian Superman. Yeah, that's dead that the that was a good movie, yeah. I I still think my favorite animated movie is Flashpoint Paradox. I think I just love that one. It's very good.

ApexDabi (02:37:56.878)
Like the Russian Russian Superman.

KPXCHRIS (02:37:59.845)
The

KPXCHRIS (02:38:04.942)
Yeah. that no, that one's also up there too. Yeah.

ApexDabi (02:38:05.036)
Yeah, yeah, 'cause there's like yeah, that one that one's crazy. That one's good.

KPXCHRIS (02:38:12.9)
Flashpoint's good.

ApexDabi (02:38:13.41)
Yeah, that one's nice. we get to see Amanda Waller, and that's like peak Amanda Waller. That like she's getting active.

Coach Mills (02:38:19.743)
Yeah, yeah, and and fucking what what is it what yeah.

ApexDabi (02:38:22.947)
Barry.

CaptainCoach (02:38:25.017)
I like the s creature commandos is pretty good. I like that one.

ApexDabi (02:38:28.652)
Yeah, that one's that was decent. I love how we're just promoting DC shows on a Marvel Rivals podcast. Netties, please don't watch. Don't watch.

KPXCHRIS (02:38:30.32)
That's cool.

Coach Mills (02:38:33.953)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:38:34.767)
Ha ha ha.

KPXCHRIS (02:38:36.44)
I mean, I I think I think you know, there's people that hate on Doomsday, but I think there's certain things in life that are too big to fail. Doomsday's not gonna fail. anybody hating on it. It's it's gonna it's gonna do a billion dollars. Probably gonna do more than Infinity War. the same thing with GTA six, right? Like, GTA six too big to fail. No matter what, it's gonna be insanely successful. It's gonna be the next big game for the next year.

Coach Mills (02:38:37.165)
Aye.

ApexDabi (02:38:48.246)
Yeah, yeah.

ApexDabi (02:38:56.974)
I don't know.

KPXCHRIS (02:39:03.702)
I know you brought it up earlier, Coach Mills, but just bringing it up again, GTA six, what do you guys think?

Coach Mills (02:39:05.815)
Yep. Yeah, I think that's the probably the biggest threat to Rivals 'cause I think it actually it can actually steal the the player base. Not not all at first because it's only gonna be console and you know, Rivals is free, but like throughout the holidays and then going into early next year when it's released on PC and the multiplayer, it's like GTA could steal a lot of a lot of the interest in Rivals.

KPXCHRIS (02:39:15.996)
yeah. Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (02:39:27.746)
I I think GTA is the great unifier. Like, what other game is gonna bring sports people, COD people, strategy people? Like, I think every gamer from every different community has all unanimously agreed to play GTA six. And we're not gonna see a game like that till maybe what, next Skyrim that comes out whenever Bethesda wants to do that, but

Coach Mills (02:39:51.021)
Yeah, even Sky I mean GTA is just fucking

KPXCHRIS (02:39:53.189)
Yeah, GTA it's it's gonna be the biggest game of all time. I think it's also gonna be the most expensive game they've ever made, as well. So I mean I've already said I'm gonna

ApexDabi (02:40:00.919)
I mean they're double dipping it. So like PC people aren't gonna get it for a year. So console's gonna just rain for a whole year. They're gonna double dip it 'cause they know they'll buy it twice. They know.

KPXCHRIS (02:40:04.846)
Yeah. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:40:06.425)
I can't believe they're doing that. I can't believe that.

KPXCHRIS (02:40:08.122)
Yeah, they're they're greedy, but I I don't know. Yeah. I mean I I have to buy it twice, so but yeah. Are you guys what are you guys gonna do in terms of content for for GTA? Are you guys gonna transition or are you guys gonna do you see yourself playing rivals long term?

CaptainCoach (02:40:14.107)
Yeah. I will not be buying it twice, so I'll be waiting.

Coach Mills (02:40:25.315)
I I got some pretty big ideas for videos that would 'cause I I think like if if you want if you want to get a million view video, you're not getting it in Rivals. If you wanna get a ten million view video, you're there's only like maybe five games that come out every decade that you could get a ten million view video in and GTA is one of So like I I like I have I have some plans for to enter into GTA. It's just like the production is hard. Like if you wanna make a video that cannot be replicated by anyone, you have to spend a lot, you have to plan a lot, you have to edit to an insane amount.

KPXCHRIS (02:40:33.54)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (02:40:41.69)
GTA thousand percent, yeah.

ApexDabi (02:40:42.338)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:40:55.181)
Like the the the size and scope is like fucking massive. Like to be honest with you, if you really want to crush it, it's possible. It's just like it's I don't know if I'm I'm willing to do all that. It's it's a lot of work.

KPXCHRIS (02:41:06.17)
So you think you're gonna thug it out with rivals?

Coach Mills (02:41:09.121)
I mean, yeah, why not? Yeah, I thor thorough still thor, I can still thor it out.

CaptainCoach (02:41:14.063)
I've always

ApexDabi (02:41:14.304)
I don't I don't I I've I made a post recently because I talked to Chris about this where Chris made a video that he's losing hair and I'm like, bro, same. Like I'm dead ass losing hair. Like and I and I started I I genuinely gave myself a stomach ulcer. I have an enlarged heart valve. I don't sleep. I'm losing hair. And this is all from like the stress of streaming and like the hate and the drama farm. Like it's toxic.

KPXCHRIS (02:41:24.495)
yeah. It's still bad. I it's right then right now.

Coach Mills (02:41:27.862)
Ha ha.

Coach Mills (02:41:35.821)
Ha ha ha

CaptainCoach (02:41:36.241)
Shus.

KPXCHRIS (02:41:36.51)
shit.

CaptainCoach (02:41:41.145)
wow.

KPXCHRIS (02:41:42.586)
Yeah.

ApexDabi (02:41:43.69)
It's genuinely toxic and I can't I can't remain in hero shooters. It'll it'll it'll literally kill me. So I I I'm planning on moving. Like I I I I don't think I don't think rivals will be it for me. Like I think it's kind of just a you know, I'm stopping at this station, but I'm like I the moment the train gets moving I'm I'm off like you know, I'm not staying here. They just it's not sustainable.

Coach Mills (02:41:47.975)
really?

CaptainCoach (02:41:48.589)
I just I got sorry, I didn't want to cut you off.

KPXCHRIS (02:41:49.914)
The

Coach Mills (02:42:03.833)
So there were

CaptainCoach (02:42:05.645)
I I know what like how you feel, man. I I got two death threats streaming yesterday, too. Like it it's like this yeah.

KPXCHRIS (02:42:05.796)
There.

KPXCHRIS (02:42:13.018)
That threats.

ApexDabi (02:42:13.29)
It dude, I yeah, I'm I'm not gonna go too deep into it, but I I genuinely it got to a point where I had to call some I had I I had a friend in law enforcement who's an FBI agent, and it got so serious that I had to literally put somebody on an FBI watch list from the rivals community, just so in case and they're being monitored right now, they're still creating content.

Coach Mills (02:42:15.246)
Yikes.

ApexDabi (02:42:40.268)
I'm not gonna name drop it. They're they're all they're still doing everything that they're doing, and it's all just being monitored. And the moment they slip up, it's done. But it's like it

Coach Mills (02:42:47.501)
Is there any room for someone else? 'Cause I know I'm pretty close with this one guy that I think probably should get on that list too.

ApexDabi (02:42:52.886)
Yeah, 'cause like I I it's gotten to a point where I I just I can't do this. Like I'm fearing for my life. People were trying to dox my mods and my streamer friends that I stream with and it's like and it's all coming from just like it's there's so much hate in people's heart and it's like, yo, like I'm good with game to game toxicity, but like this is real life. Like you're doing too much. We're playing a superhero game. You're doing too much.

Coach Mills (02:43:01.465)
Jesus Christ, bro. What the fuck?

CaptainCoach (02:43:15.609)
Yeah. I I've always viewed games like I I like the shit talking, I like the banter, but to me that's I kind of that's where I leave it. I I I think the game just has gotten so toxic. But for me personally, to answer your question, Chris, I've always viewed streaming as just a way to be able to play the games that I like to play, really. So I mean, GTA, I'll probably check it out. No rush though to do it. You're not super excited about making content for it. For me, it's just wow. Like wow's always been my favorite game. So if I can kind of just get by playing that game, doing what I love.

ApexDabi (02:43:23.586)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (02:43:32.88)
Mm-hmm.

CaptainCoach (02:43:44.911)
Then I don't really need to, you know, go like mainstream or anything like that. I just I'm just trying to play what I like to play.

KPXCHRIS (02:43:50.533)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:43:50.617)
So I will say, Hey, let's go.

ApexDabi (02:43:51.161)
I'm trying to retire my parents so I have a completely different incentive. Like I'm trying to get out. Like I've been poor my whole life. Like I ca I can't keep doing this. I n I'm trying to like take care of the fam and so I I gotta do something. Like it's something has to change. I can't c I this is it's unsustainable w the what I'm doing.

KPXCHRIS (02:43:54.254)
Yeah, me yeah, me too. Yeah, I'm trying to

CaptainCoach (02:43:54.895)
Yeah. Fair enough.

KPXCHRIS (02:43:59.525)
The

Coach Mills (02:44:07.841)
One thing I'll say, not necessarily to y'all. I think a lot of y'all are probably burnt out and y'all have real reasons to leave. so when f everyone knows who flats is now, right? Everyone, every fucking person knows who flats is now. When he started making rivals content and started streaming rivals, that game was in the fucking gutter. It was terrible. Everyone left. There was no new heroes for two years. It was in the worst state. And where's Flats now?

ApexDabi (02:44:18.082)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:44:33.731)
Like when people when people leave a game and when people really are discontent with the game, that's when you can truly grind out yourself in in like but it's hard. It's hard when there's no hype, when people are leaving, when everyone tells you, Hey, come have fun with us over at deadlock or wherever the fuck But I'm just saying that there's opportunity to be had for people who are consistent as well. Like but it y it's hard mentally. I was I will say it's hard mentally, but it is there is opportunity.

CaptainCoach (02:44:57.849)
I I I think Rivals is gonna figure it out. I I do. but it

Coach Mills (02:45:01.145)
A hundred percent.

KPXCHRIS (02:45:01.87)
I mean, my my other thing is that like I mean, people that play GTA, like you can do both, right? You can make GTA content. At least my plan is I'm gonna make GTA content and then everybody knows arrivals is at this point. So

Coach Mills (02:45:12.333)
I probably I'll probably s put it on different channels, but yeah. You could

KPXCHRIS (02:45:14.948)
Yeah, and you just go back and play rivals with the new heroes and stuff. Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:45:19.565)
The

CaptainCoach (02:45:19.793)
Yeah, I I got a WoW channel. It's got almost ten million views. So I just got I really just post to it for fun 'cause it's a game I like, make pretty much no money from it. I'll probably just start posting that to that again and just keep doing my rival stuff. A lot of people I don't know where it went, but people thought I was quitting. I'm like, nah, dude, I still like rivals. It's just it's like it's like when your your football team is like you love your football team but it they just keep messing up and then like doing dumb shit.

ApexDabi (02:45:42.496)
Is it that Jets fan TikTok that I saw the other day where he's like, you know, I I'm a Jets fan, I I don't like this team, I was born into this team, but you know, I'm I'm stuck with them but I don't like this team. It's kinda it's kinda one of those situations.

CaptainCoach (02:45:46.41)
I don't know.

CaptainCoach (02:45:54.615)
Yeah. I'm I'm fortunate enough to be a Ravens fan, so I'm not too too disappointed. But yeah, I mean that's kinda how I feel. It's just like I'm just just kinda disappointed, but I I think they'll they'll you know, figure it out. They'll they'll write the write the ship for sure.

Coach Mills (02:45:54.841)
Mm-hmm.

ApexDabi (02:45:59.15)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:46:10.093)
Well, in wrapping things up, I'm gonna first I wanna thank y'all, Dobby and Chris. Thank y'all both for coming on. I I really appreciate y'all both coming on. Y'all are both welcome back anytime. You have anything you wanna talk about? You know, maybe we get a massive blade buff and and we need you to talk about anytime, anytime. Yeah, yeah, hell yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I I'll just I'll just say that you if you have anything you wanna say to kinda close things out, like let it let it you

CaptainCoach (02:46:15.215)
Yeah, this was super fun. It's a

ApexDabi (02:46:16.024)
Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

KPXCHRIS (02:46:18.016)
Thank you.

CaptainCoach (02:46:20.889)
Absolutely.

KPXCHRIS (02:46:22.884)
Yes, sir. Yo. Blay comps, man. Everything.

CaptainCoach (02:46:25.079)
I you you guys were genuinely like amazing guests. I think this is gonna be one of our best episodes. I think it is one of our best. It was a lot of fun.

KPXCHRIS (02:46:32.779)
But thank you.

Coach Mills (02:46:38.669)
Both of y'all. Dobby, you first you do have anything big you wanna say?

ApexDabi (02:46:41.099)
Yeah, I I do wanna say like

I do ap I I wanna apologize to anybody that I may or may not have offended for what I've said today because I know people feel very strongly and have very different ideals and, you know, way of a way of life and how they handle certain circumstances when it comes to, you know, political sensitivity, and and and how they carry themselves. At the same time, I f I feel as though some of these conversations have to be had.

And I'm glad that I was able to be I'm glad that I was able to be heard by people that weren't just going to deflect or kind of run away from the conversation. And I and I think I'm I'm just fortunate. I'm fortunate because like I I like I said, this is my first time actually talking to Chris. But we've we've had our passings, like, you know, we've talked a little bit here and there. And I didn't I d I didn't know that you were I didn't know that you

I I didn't know that you cared this much. And it's a breath of fresh air. Because all I ever see online is pe people it's they mask, you know? And it's it's a breath of fresh air to have a different take and be able to talk about it and just not have a screaming match where we're just getting nowhere. It it's it's just thank you. That's all I that's all I yeah, thank you. Thank you for hearing me out and thank you for just not belittling me or

KPXCHRIS (02:47:48.964)
Okay.

CaptainCoach (02:48:07.121)
You made a fan out of me, for sure.

Coach Mills (02:48:11.299)
W Philosophy majors, let's fucking go.

ApexDabi (02:48:14.37)
You know, just actually listening to me and treating me like a real human being. So I appreciate you and I appreciate Coach and and Mills for having me on.

Coach Mills (02:48:21.825)
time bro. And Chris if there's anything you want to say, close things out.

CaptainCoach (02:48:22.116)
Absolutely, man.

KPXCHRIS (02:48:25.956)
yeah, I mean, going back to the political discussion, 'cause you might get a lot of comments on that. like I again, I'm not like an inherently like super political person where every stream you'll see me talk about politics, but you know, every here and again you'll see me talk about what's happening in the world 'cause you know, most of my content is skits, right? Like I'm either shit posting or I'm posting some Yap videos or, you know, we have a big event. Like if you guys have seen my videos, it's like Pop the Balloon or the Blade Funeral or you know, any random

day in the life video of I posted and stuff like that. But on stream is kind of different story, you know? my story with wanting to be a streamer in the first place was I saw Aiden Ross have Trump on stream and have like 200,000 people watching him have Trump on stream with like XQC in the background and stuff. And I'm like, wow, like streaming does have insane political power. And so, you know, I have my philosophy degree. I chose to either slave away and

Get my PhD and just write papers for people that it's only gonna be read by like two or three people and probably not sell any books, or try my best to get a platform and use my platform to teach people to be more critically minded. And I appreciate you guys so much for having me on the podcast. And hopefully this has opened some minds and gotten people to, you know, look at the world differently or actually, you know, go outside and

read more about the world and stuff. Cause like again, you have no idea where the conversations go. My whole philosophy about life is like there's a rebounding effect to everything that you say. Right. You have a platform where people are listening. You don't know who's listening. You don't know what their opinion is going to do in the world because you could say one thing to somebody on stream and then they can go out and say it to somebody else. They say to somebody else and now you have a butterfly effect happening. Right. So thank you guys so much again for having me on, having a great discussion. It's been a great

podcast. Hopefully I can be on in the future, talk about some other stuff, talk about blade buffs, talk about the world. You guys ever want somebody to to you know have a you know different opinion or you know somebody like me, you know, I I'm I'm always available.

ApexDabi (02:50:19.192)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:50:20.077)
Yeah, a hundred percent.

Coach Mills (02:50:26.829)
I a type of content I think I mean I would love for you to do that I think would be insane is if you talked about this like what you're talking about now more about like the connection between like the in game character, the comic books and the real world politics behind the comics. Like I think that'd be really cool. Like I don't see that kind of content, but like I think that's gonna be more relevant going forward. You know, talk about where was the inspiration in the writing, where does that have like what does that directly involve now? Like I think there's a lot of room for that kind of discussion, like

KPXCHRIS (02:50:36.111)
Mm-hmm.

KPXCHRIS (02:50:42.223)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:50:43.906)
yeah.

KPXCHRIS (02:50:45.967)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (02:50:55.928)
Yeah, no, and it it's actually funny, you say that 'cause there was just recently it happened on TikTok there was like a whole debate on if Krakoa was Israel or something in in the X Men comics and how they were talking about that. But I didn't really read too much into it, but that actually did just happen. So yeah, I'll definitely see if I could draft some stuff out and see if I can make some connections and stuff. So

Coach Mills (02:51:16.537)
Yeah.

'Cause like I I don't I like something I've heard a lot is like the like Magneto and Professor X is supposed to like mirror like Martin Luther King Jr. and and Malcolm X. But like I like I don't know Yeah? that taught you the Yeah, like and I would be let's fucking go.

KPXCHRIS (02:51:27.588)
Yeah, that's actually how my dad taught me taught me that. Yeah. Yeah, that's how my dad taught me. Yeah. My dad was a comic book nerd, so yeah, he he has a bunch of comics up in the in the attic and we we saw like every X Men movie, every Marvel movie that came out and that was like the introduction to me learning about racial stuff was watching X Men as a kid and then hearing the comparisons between O K and Malcolm X and then we watched the Malcolm X movie and then the O K movie and stuff, so

CaptainCoach (02:51:30.841)
Mm.

ApexDabi (02:51:49.24)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (02:51:57.06)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:51:57.08)
I'd be I'd be interested in like the timelines, like when like and then the writer, like the person who created the characters, like you know, like w did where did he pull the inspiration? I don't know. I think there's a lot of room there for like some really smart discussions around you know, Marvel and X Men's that like you s you would be super equipped to like crush. I think it'd be super cool. It'd be really, really cool. But yeah,

KPXCHRIS (02:52:18.49)
Yeah. thank you, yeah.

ApexDabi (02:52:18.638)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:52:21.677)
But yeah, where can we where can we find you? Where can we support you? If people like what you're about, they wanna see your streams, they wanna, you know, support your what you're all about, everything. Chris, where can people find you?

KPXCHRIS (02:52:32.068)
KPX Chris, all platforms. I'm not on Twitter though. I gotta I gotta start locking in on Twitter. But yeah, that's that's that's that's been my my biggest weakness, bro.

Coach Mills (02:52:36.121)
No, you do you need to get off no no dude no and I I I so I I'm not gonna lie I think I've read more like hardcore racist shit on X in the past two weeks than I've seen in like five years. Like it is fucking insane. Like it's rotting my brain.

ApexDabi (02:52:36.162)
Yeah, you gotta hop on on Twit bro, if you really wanna get in on this action, you gotta get on Twitter, dog.

ApexDabi (02:52:52.12)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:52:53.06)
It's

ApexDabi (02:52:54.688)
It's you you know, okay, best way to put it, it's like the you know the Superman meme where all the monkeys were on the computer rage baiting? It's that's what Twitter is. Like it's dead ass just like it's i it's a pocket dimension of just rage bait and like the worst things you've heard.

KPXCHRIS (02:52:55.759)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:52:57.881)
Yeah. There's a lot of bots too.

Coach Mills (02:53:01.727)
my god. But dude. Like like there like the like I've I've seen I've seen I've seen like AI there's like a guy that makes like fucking the the craziest AI thing and his like profile picture's like a white blade with like Israel ha like it like I don't even know dude what is wrong with people man Bro bro and he will say the most racist shit you could ever imagine in reply to anything that people talk about like I

CaptainCoach (02:53:02.865)
Ha ha ha.

KPXCHRIS (02:53:05.231)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:53:05.819)
For real.

KPXCHRIS (02:53:19.765)
I saw that. No. No, my my chat send that. My chat shouldn't be that. No, they just

ApexDabi (02:53:20.738)
Yeah, I saw it, yeah.

KPXCHRIS (02:53:30.864)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:53:32.147)
That that platform will rot your brain. I'm just letting I'm letting you know it's like almost not even worth it. It's

ApexDabi (02:53:34.54)
Yeah.

KPXCHRIS (02:53:37.37)
Yeah. But yeah, yeah, I I don't use Twitter. I use TikTok mostly. So I'm trying to get into Twitter. But yeah.

Coach Mills (02:53:44.415)
I I guess it's fun for a conversation, but I I I've just been shitting on deadlock players, I'm not gonna lie, on on on Twitter. It's very fun. No, no, no, no, I just I just like to razor. I I'm I I could try it, but I'm I'm pretty acid, okay?

KPXCHRIS (02:53:50.746)
You plan the new update?

You should try it. Yeah, they got six new characters coming out. I'm trying to get people to vote for Rat King. So I'm gonna see yeah, see if I can play Rat King.

Coach Mills (02:54:00.649)
yeah?

CaptainCoach (02:54:03.471)
That's a I didn't even know about that. That's a cool name.

Coach Mills (02:54:03.543)
Yeah. I I'm not gonna I'm not gonna lie, Chris. I need people to play with. I cannot I know metric metric's been wanting to play and like set up like some creator lobbies, but yeah, I I can't not play that game so well, lose my fucking mind. I like Great Talon. The the the the Hanza character. Yeah, yeah. Yeah yeah.

KPXCHRIS (02:54:13.093)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:54:15.173)
Wait, Mills, what's your main again, real quick? The the h yeah, that's why okay. Right, right, right.

KPXCHRIS (02:54:21.704)
hit me up. Yeah. I'm about to play with you know, S T Y Collin and Who Kovey and Camden. We're all gonna play deadlock, I think, next week. We gotta schedule it, but yeah, I'm trying to play the new update at least for a little bit. I'm not it's not gonna be like a main thing, but while Rivals is bad, easy to play for a little bit.

Coach Mills (02:54:26.882)
Of course.

ApexDabi (02:54:37.314)
Yeah. Yeah, I th I think we're all on the on the wave of just I think I I've seen all the creators just start collabing. Like all the all the all the other communities have their own little niche where they play among us or they right within like R six and you know what I mean? Like all of have their own little thing and I think it's time for us to also build out our own little community of just variety where we can all get together and I don't know, just connect, man. Like, you know, break that barrier of just being a rival streamer.

Coach Mills (02:54:38.145)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean that that would be fucking fun, yeah.

KPXCHRIS (02:54:44.901)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:55:01.617)
That'd be dope.

Coach Mills (02:55:08.589)
And w what about you, Dobby? Where can people come and support you?

ApexDabi (02:55:11.182)
same same place. Twitch and and Twitter and YouTube. That's it. I'm really I've kind of forgotten about TikTok. TikTok doesn't really like creators like me, so I've been v

Coach Mills (02:55:21.011)
Yeah, yeah, okay, fair enough.

CaptainCoach (02:55:22.927)
One of my one of my favorite streamers, I'll never not say it. I love watching this guy. He's he's very entertaining. Very entertaining.

ApexDabi (02:55:26.446)
I appreciate that. Appreciate that. Appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you.

Coach Mills (02:55:29.581)
Well, I want to thank each and every one of y'all for watching. Make sure to check out both of these creators and support them. They've been really, really great. Let us know how you feel. Let comment your opinions, agree, disagree. Let us know exactly how you feel and who you want to see next, what you want to talk about. Thank you so much for coming by. Hope you enjoyed the video and we'll see you next time. Peace.

ApexDabi (02:55:48.559)
Have a good one.

Coach Mills (02:55:49.89)
Alright, let me stop.