The Twenty One Clear Podcast

In this latest episode of the Twenty One Clear Podcast, Adam Hatcher joins a Kennesaw State University Family Enterprise Center panel hosted by Stephanie Davis. Adam's fellow panelists were Jacqueline Jensen and Leslie Oubre, both of whom left their family companies mid-career. 

Together they answer three questions: 
  1. Was leaving a gradual or acute process? 
  2. What was the emotional impact? 
  3. And what would they do differently or tell someone else going through it?

Links from the Episode

21C Links

Chapters
(00:00) Introduction
(02:30) Was leaving gradual or acute?
(08:00) Family meetings as the mechanism
(11:30) The emotional impact
(17:00) The steamroller CEO story
(20:30) Jacqueline on identity
(27:00) The three hats framework
(33:00) Leslie on admitting the truth
(37:00) Emily P. Freeman's framework
(41:30) Leslie's step-by-step approach
(45:00) Closing

Bumper Music
Still Hot
by Nic D, Connor Price
(c) Lossless, 2023

Episode Produced By
https://snapmarket.co

Creators and Guests

Host
Adam Hatcher
Family Business Consultant

What is The Twenty One Clear Podcast?

The benefits of working with family include mutual trust, a shared long-term outlook, and quick decision making. However, your inner family business relationships can also cause chaos for the company and family.

What can you do?

Join us as we explore chaos proofing your family business so you can build a great company with a strong family around it.

21clear.com

Hey there.

Welcome to the 21 Clear Podcast.

I'm your host, Adam Hatcher,
the founder of 21 Clear, and

on the podcast we talk about.

Anything to help you chaos
proof your family company today.

Today we go there.

I want to share an excerpt
with you from a webinar that

I was invited to be a part of.

Uh, Kennesaw State University
has a family enterprise center.

I was invited to be part of a virtual
panel to talk about the experience

of leaving your family company.

I was on there with Jacqueline
Jensen and Leslie ub, both of whom

left their family's com, their
family's company, mid-career, to go

pursue other things in the same way.

I did 13 years in my family company
and then started 21 Clear, a family

business consulting firm, and we answer.

Three questions in this excerpt and
several others in the longer version.

Uh, but what you're gonna hear on the
podcast, Stephanie Davis from the Family

Enterprise Center, asks me was the
process of leaving acute or gradual.

So that's where we're gonna pick
up where Stephanie's asked me that.

And then you're gonna get to listen
through all three of us, me, Jacqueline,

and Leslie being asked, what was
the emotional impact of leaving.

Then if you could do it over again,
what would you change or what would

you tell yourself or somebody else?

That's what you're gonna get in this
podcast, the three of us talking

about those three things, gradual or
acute emotional impact and do over.

I hope you enjoy this.

I had a lot of fun in the conversation
and not a lot of people go here.

So I hope it is helpful to you
in your family company journey.

it's gradual.

It's interesting.

Stephanie.

Um, hey, I, for everybody who's logged
in, uh, on behalf of, uh, Leslie,

me and Jacqueline, thank y'all.

Um, I have, see I.

I joined the family company in 2010.

I've been doing family business
consulting about two, three years now.

This is the first time I've seen people
openly willing to log into something like

this and talk and also to participate.

And if y'all have read the chat
along the way, we have people

that are onboarding family.

We have people who are
thinking of leaving.

We have people who are thinking of
leaving because their life has to change

or they need to go start something else.

I bet you somebody has
someone they need to off.

I think someone had someone
they need to offboard.

Um, here's the thing, Stephanie,
I wish someone had told

me when I started in 2010.

Alright, so 13 years in my own
family's company, three generations.

Y'all know that when you work
in a family business, you

get this when magical ticket.

And that magical ticket lets
you talk to any other person who

works with their family, no matter
their revenue compared to yours.

And you get to have really
honest conversations.

I've gotten to sit with people who
are doing a few million top line to

people valued at $30 billion plus,
and like me, Leslie, and Jacqueline,

it's across industries as well.

Stephanie, I wish the day I had
started, somebody said to me, you will

meet families from all over one day.

Adam, you will end up doing this work and
you will work with families and you will

study families of all different spectrums.

And there's one thing guaranteed when
you work with your family, if one day

you choose to work with your family,
I promise you in all my experience,

research and knowledge, one day you're
not going to like, you're going to leave.

It's gonna be over one day.

And Jacqueline and Leslie, I was listening
to y'all and it's interesting that we can

get lost in that because it's your family.

I mean, I grew up around the business
and you start to think that it's, you

can start to think it's inevitable or
there are no options outside of it.

I still remember sitting
with a second gen.

Who they were trying to earn their way
to the top job and they felt that their

mother was just never gonna retire.

And I remember they said to me,
yeah, but Adam, I'm trapped.

I can't go anywhere.

And, and two things
happened at once for me.

One, I knew what they meant.

I know it can feel inevitable.

When it is your family's company,
depe, particularly, depending on

how much you've invested in it.

But also I had to say
to him, no you're not.

Mm-hmm.

It's a job, like it's
way heavier than that.

Right.

But it is a job.

And what's interesting,
what was interesting for me,

my, when I was in law school, uh,
and as happens in family companies.

This happened out of nowhere.

My father sent a letter to me, my brother
who was in college, and my sister who was

in high school, and it said, I don't know
if the Lord's ever gonna call you to come

to the family company, if you're ever
gonna feel it's a calling on your life.

But if so, these five things need to be
true before you can join the company.

For him.

Now, this won't be everybody else's list,
and hopefully this is helpful as, um,

somebody said that they were onboarding
a family member, and this is specific.

To the company and where it
was at the time, and the type

of clients in the industry.

But he said, you need to graduate from
high school, college, graduate degree,

degree, work somewhere else, get a
promotion, and your personal beliefs

have to be aligned with Christian values.

'cause a lot of the core values
of our family's company line

up with Judeo-Christian values.

And so what he was trying
to do was make sure that you

were on an upward trajectory.

And you aligned with the
core values of the business.

That's got nothing to do with,
are you a good lawyer qualified to

analyze a corporate risk profile?

Right?

So it was family hiring
criteria before joining.

But what was Stephanie, what was
important about that to leaving is it

made, joining a gradual process and thus
it did two things and I didn't realize

the wisdom in it when it happened.

I always knew I and he, I talked
about this when I was there.

He said, Adam, I graduated from
the University of Georgia on Friday

and I went to work on Monday.

The only person who ever gave me
a raise was my dad, and sometimes

I had to buy my raise from him.

He said, I want, he said, I
want you, I want your siblings.

I want any other family members to know
that you have value beyond my eyes and

you have options outside of this company.

And when I was leaving, I actually went
back ahead of this and I looked over,

I still have my script from the call
with, we had about 20 senior leaders on

a Zoom call, uh, when we announced it.

And I still have my script from it.

Something I would recommend to
anybody leaving write it down.

And I told them something.

I don't think I'd ever told them
that because it was never guaranteed

I would join every single year.

I asked myself and my wife
and I asked ourselves, is this

where we're supposed to be?

It helped to differentiate
from the company.

It is.

So you're gonna ask us
later about identity.

Stephanie, any smart thing?

It sounds like I say I promise it
just made it a little less hard.

Like you can do everything you can
to keep your identity separate from

the company and you're still gonna
over identify it in the ways other

people struggle to understand.

Um, but because it was not inevitable
to join, I also always was refreshing

the decision, is this the right thing?

My father and I were actually really
open about that in annual reviews.

I shared that with the senior
leaders on the way out.

It may seem like it's inevitable for a
third gen to keep going, but it was a

gradual process and we, one thing for
y'all that helped it to unfold in a chaos

proof fashion, that's, I wrote a book
called The Chaos Proof Family Business

is These conversations evolve through
family meetings and Leslie Jacqueline,

I don't know if y'all had those.

But I've probably got 20 years of family
meetings, so not company meetings, not

you know, family vacation meetings,
but amongst those of us who worked in

the business and the family members
who own the business, we did 'em

manually and then we did 'EM quarterly.

And then there are times where
we've done 'em more often.

Like this question, Stephanie, is
something we were forced to answer

to each other in those meetings.

As family member.

I think that's wonderful.

That's, yeah, I think that's great.

It was, yeah.

So that is, it was a gradual process
and that's part of how it unfolded.

Yeah.

That's a great segue into our next
little bit of a topic here, because

leaving a job is one thing, right?

But leaving a family business
is something else altogether.

So Adam, I'll keep it on you.

What was the hardest
part for you emotionally?

Oh, so you brought the
easy question to me.

Okay.

All right.

Thanks.

Okay, so for those of you who are,
if you're hiring family, um, I.

Ultimately you may have,
they are going to move on.

You're gonna move on, or you
may have to help them move on.

Um, if you have not done this yet, if you
have not left yet, or if you have not been

responsible for a family member leaving,
I wanna put this on a continuum for you.

I had, before I joined the family
company, I think 11 different jobs.

For free pay or school credit.

So that means 11, 12, 13
times I have left a job.

So if you think about, if, if you
can see me on the video here, I'm

kind of splitting my fingers apart.

Like on this side, on the right side.

Is that you're right.

Or, I don't know what that is.

Yeah.

Okay.

Let's just say on the left side, on
the, on the left side of this line

or this continuum, it's just like.

The normal emotional impact of
moving from one job to another.

I mean, sometimes it's great.

You move, it's easy.

You're getting a promotion,
you're getting the job you wanted.

You were in a temporary placeholder
job, and now you're in a more permanent

position and there's a little bit
of grief that can go with that.

You may miss your coworkers.

You may wish you had done it
earlier, but it doesn't carry

a lot of emotional weight.

Then I want you to go to the far.

The far right side.

So that was the left side.

Go to the far right side with
me, and that's the emotional

impact of a profound family loss.

This can be death,
disability, estrangement.

Okay, so on one end you've got
the emotional impact of a loss,

but it's kind of transactional.

And, and depending, and depending on how
long you were in the job, it may move

you more toward the middle, depending
on how much you were invested, how much

of your lifestyle is caught up in it.

Leaving and moving or losing a
job does carry an impact, whether

it was your decision or not.

But when you decide when you work with
family, what we've done is we have mixed

the unconditional nature of business
with the conditional nature of family.

Which is what creates
this emotional impact.

And when you exit a family company,
it's probably going to be on the

right side, even if you do it
the right way at the right time.

Stephanie, I met a guy.

He had a successful career as a
third gener, second generation, CEO.

He was second gen, CEO.

He saw his succession as a process,
so he had his board involved.

He had a consultant involved and his
son was next in line, but they were

responsible for evaluating it and.

It was, you would think he's kind
of toward the left side, right?

This is sounding intellectual and
cerebral, and he's gonna do it easily.

Y'all, his consultant came back to
him and said, uh, good news, bad news.

Your son is qualified to take over
for you, and the board agrees with me.

However, we also agree
that you're a steamroller.

And if you are still in place when
your son becomes CEO, you will

bulldoze your son, injuring the
company and your relationship.

So as of today, you are no longer CEO.

Congratulations on your retirement.

And just like that, he
was outta the business.

And we were talking about two
years after that happened.

He's like, Adam, it took me a
year to get my head around it.

Like all of a sudden he went from
thinking this and it was over here.

Your experience or your
family member's experience?

It's gonna depend.

Jacqueline, you were sharing some
earlier, like what did you, how

much were you involved, how much
it was part of your identity?

How long have you been there?

It's on a continuum and.

Yeah, it, it, it's on it.

And none of us hit the same place.

It can even be what you gave up.

And so if you have one family, like
when my cousin left, my cousin left,

and she's now CHRO of a Fortune 200
company, that's one exit When somebody

else leaves in any family company, it
may be a totally different circumstance

with a totally different impact.

So I think it's important.

Stephanie, please, if you
haven't done this before, it's

not just a cerebral decision.

For sure.

Yeah.

Jacqueline, you wanna touch a
little bit on the emotional impact

that it had on you when you left?

Yeah.

You don't want to, it's okay.

No, absolutely.

I'm happy to share it
and I'll try and touch.

I do wanna piggyback off of,
um, what Adam said a little bit.

'cause we really connected over this
and, and just reiterate, because I saw it

several times in the chat to reiterate the
importance of, um, clear communication.

And anytime you're in a family
business, um, Adam states it very

well, I'm not gonna state it the exact
same way Adam does, 'cause I can't.

Um, but, um, the way I typically
state it is when you're working in

a family business, you're wearing
three hats generally, right?

You're a family member,

you're an owner if you have any equity.

So even though I was not primary
owner, I had an equity in the business.

Um, and then I would, you're an employee.

You wear a seat or maybe two or
three depending on your family

business in the organization.

And so to have appropriate communication
and, and meeting cadence, um, with

each of those hats individually and
being incredibly clear about what hat

you're wearing in the conversation.

Right.

Is this a family conversation?

I'm a family member and the
dynamics of the family come into

play with that conversation.

Right?

Or are we having conversations
as owners about the business and

what the future of the business is
and how to operate this business?

Or are we having conversations as
employees wearing our specific hat

or hats sometimes in family business.

Being really, really clear about what
hat you're wearing when, uh, saying

I, it is been said many times, but I
say, right to be clear, is to be kind.

And so put on that hat, have
the clear conversation, be open

and honest, whether it's in the
business or in the family circle.

Um, so that expectations
align and that individuals.

Can make decisions that are best
for themselves and their families.

And that's not necessarily
tied to family itself, right?

Um, it's our own identity because
it's so common in family business,

um, to have your, as Adam said,
to have your identity tied to it.

Especially when you come into a family
business as a next gen or sec, you

know, second gen, next gen, whatever
that generation is, you grew up in it.

Then you come into it so early,
oftentimes, I, I also love what

Adam, um, has researched and shares
of like the importance of setting

those boundaries of what's required
before coming into a family business.

Um, and the idea of like,
go work somewhere else.

Have them go work somewhere else
for five years and learn what it's

like to work without a safety net.

And work for a boss who doesn't
have the same love and admiration

for you as your parents do, right?

Like, go experience that.

And then if you still wanna come
into the family business, let's talk

about what other, um, boxes need
to be checked in order to do that.

I think that that's a phenomenal,
um, way to approach it, but every

family's going to be different.

Um, but tying back to identity,
like for me specifically, I

grew up in that family business.

There was no clear lines between
family, employee, or owners.

Um, everything was just business for us.

And then I was essentially felt obligated
to come work for the family business

and that just became who I was, right?

Every day.

Um, how can we, how can
I make my parents proud?

How can I lead this business well?

Um, how can I learn new skills and how
can I go home and take care of my family?

Um, and.

It just became so much of who I was.

So when that decision came, um, where
I ultimately decided to leave, I had

so much peace because I pondered on
at what expense is this worth it for

so long, and when the outcome wasn't
what had been promised, the decision

to leave was so clear and so I had
a lot of peace in the decision, but

I had so much work to do personally.

To kind of emotionally recover from
that decision and figure out who I

was and what I wanted to do and how
I wanted to still serve people and

um, and take care of entrepreneurs,
which I've now landed on my feet.

But, um, that is, it's a, I was so tied
to who I was in that family business,

and I still catch myself some days
thinking like, oh, I can, I can do

this, or I can go do, and I'm like, no.

My stepfather's not my boss.

Um, or no, I don't need
to respond that way.

I don't have to protect anyone.

Right.

I'm not still be kind, but, right.

Um, so it's, I mean, it is,
it's, it's a big adjustment.

So I just go back to anyone in the chat
who is at any point in this process

of thinking about working for the
business, working in the business.

Or you know, thinking of bringing the
next gen in or exiting the business.

Like just the importance of clear
communication and beginning to

work through what that will be like
emotionally, um, for all parties involved.

'cause there's the other dynamic
of the leading generation too.

Yeah, that's a, that's really good advice.

Um, Leslie, I'm gonna pop it over to you.

If you wanna touch on the emotional
aspect and then also how kind of

pig tailing, pigtail, dovetailing
off of what Jacqueline just said.

Um, how did you approach that
conversation, both at home and

um, in the family business?

Sure.

Um, the hardest part emotionally for
me was first admitting to myself that

I was never going to succeed in taking
over that family business and being

able to detach from that identity.

That was by far the hardest part, and I
needed some tools to help me with that.

Um, I.

Found a great resource in Emily P.

Freeman, who teaches
discernment and decision making.

She wrote a book called How to Walk
Into a Room, and it is a guide for

knowing when to stay and when to go.

The art of knowing when
to stay and when to go.

And there's just some very
practical, applicable,

um, discernment and decision making tools
that kind of guide you through knowing.

How to walk into a room, and when you
walk out of the room you're in, you're

oftentimes not walking into like a
proverbial or metaphorical new room.

Sometimes you're walking into a hallway,
a transition time, and how to live well

through these sorts of transitions of
life where a series of rooms or a house.

So I highly recommend that to, uh,
help you get a handle on being clear

with yourself because you can't have
those conversations if you can't

have that clarity in your own mind.

You don't have any language.

And, um, you've got to be able to,
as Jacqueline said, be clear so

that you can be kind to everyone.

And so when I started to
approach those conversations.

It was, it had to be for me,
just a, um, a statement of fact.

I am feeling, uh, pulled towards
landscape architecture again, and

I am feeling the need for my own
health insurance plan and 401k.

And I don't think that these
things are available to me here.

So I am going to update my portfolio,
one tiny thing, and I just said I'm,

I'm going to update my portfolio.

And that's all I did.

And then the next conversation was I
got some good feedback on my portfolio.

Um, I've noticed that in the job
listings, there are a few things

that would be a fit for me.

I'm going to apply for these jobs.

It was step by step very clear.

I did not justify the my reason for
leaving other than to say, I need this

thing, but before I could have any of
these tiny step conversations or be

clear with, I need this thing, so I'm
gonna take this tiny action, I had

to be clear with myself, and that's
how I approached the conversation.

I had to have the conversation
inside before I could have any

of the conversations outside.

All right, we are coming up on
time, but I did wanna ask just,

um, a couple more quick ones.

Um, maybe Leslie, you could take this one.

If you could go back.

Would you handle anything differently
or you feel, you feel pretty

good about how it all went down?

I like the way I left.

I'm proud of the way that I left.

Um, it's important however anyone decides
to make any change in their life that

you, uh, do it from your own integrity
that you can go to sleep at night.

Look yourself in the mirror the next day
and know that you handled it the best way

you could handle it, and you're proud of
yourself for the way you did handle it.

Yeah, I am actually
terrible at transparency.

I would much rather manipulate
the situation in a kind and, um,

you know, ethical way, of course.

Uh, but I would much rather convince
you that what I need is also what

you need and not have to ask for it.

So, um, I'm really,
really grateful for, um.

I don't know.

I, I, I can't take credit for it.

I, I honestly feel like it was
divine, the preparation that was

available to me, to one, get ready to
leave and then recover after I left.

Um, another resource that I could
throw out there, if someone's

looking for some tools in this
is called the Next Right Thing.

And it is, uh, also by Emily P.

Freeman.

That's what she does.

She's in the discernment
and decision making process.

These, um, the next right thing is a tool
that I would recommend to anyone who is

looking for how to, um, be proud of the
way that they move about in the world.

Because if you have that level of
integrity, then I feel like you, no

matter what happens or how difficult
it is, you'll have that solid core

of who I am at my deepest values
and that I moved out from there.

I think if I can grab, thank you.

Yes, definitely.

Yeah, please go ahead.

I was just gonna say, I appreciated Leslie
sharing those with me before we went on

so that we can a great, a great takeaway.

But yeah, Adam, go ahead.

Yeah, so Leslie I, something you said and
then that Jacqueline said that I loved,

like I was talking to a family recently
and this was something that somebody gave

to me when I was stepping away as well.

They said, I want you to imagine,
and I told somebody this last week

who was really struggling with their
aunt and was thinking about leaving.

I said, I want you to imagine
there's a video camera behind you.

I want you to imagine it's gonna film you
for the next eight months, and then in

six years we're gonna show it to your sons
and they're gonna see everything you said,

everything you texted, everything you
emailed, every family meeting y'all had.

Are you gonna be proud
of how you showed up?

Are you gonna be proud of how you,
because it's really hard depending

on the situation, but will you
be proud of how you showed up?

I'm not talking about anybody else.

Right?

And one of the things that helps people
do that, Jacqueline, is what you said.

Why start planning for family exits now?

'cause it's going to happen.

The timing is not necessarily yours.

Even if you hired a board
consultant, but Jacqueline, your

story about an off ramp family.

I, I talked to a family recently
'cause their lawyer called me and

said, I need you to talk to my client.

They, they called me for a
severance agreement for a

family member and it was cheap.

I'm just gonna be honest.

I said, and the first thing I said to 'em
was, listen, you're gonna give this family

member you want to as best you can with
the revenue and margin of your business.

Give them a, give them
the chance to breathe.

Don't upend their life.

Give them a reason to call a
financial manager versus an attorney.

I've been called in that situation
too, and that's the chaotic situation.

So one, a camera following you
around is a great visual for people

when you start thinking about
exiting a family member or exiting.

But, and it's interesting, Jacqueline,
I talked to, it was a brother and sister

and they had just bought their mother out.

And so you would think that they
wanted to work on, hey, let's put

some governance around how we hire
family, how we compensate each other.

Do we run family meetings?

One of 'em actually said.

I wanna create an off ramp.

'cause I don't know, with mom gone, if
we're gonna like each other and y'all, it

felt so early to plan for exiting, but you
don't know when it's coming and you don't

want to have those conversations live.

So you, if you don't have family
meetings, I would say do it.

Bring a facilitator with you to get
the ball rolling and things like off

ramp camera following you around.

Like those are really helpful ideas to
start getting in front of your family.

The Family Enterprise Center at
Kennesaw State does an incredible job of

providing resources for family companies,
whether you own a family company, work

together, or like on this episode, are
a former member of a family company.

It's always still around, and
so Kennesaw State does a great

job of providing resources.

This webinar was just one example.

If you go to the show notes, we
will link to the full episode.

It's about an hour long.

We got into three questions here.

There are several more.

There's some longer explanations, some
really interesting stories that get

shared, so I encourage you to go watch
the whole webinar when you have time,

and I hope this was helpful to you.

The 21 Clear Podcast every
time you listen to it.

My hope is it helps you take just a few
minutes to think about how your family

works in and owns the company together.

That unique dynamic is your inner
family business that sits inside your

family company and the health of it
directly impacts the results that

you're able to produce out of the
company and the strength of your family.

I hope this has helped
you build some clarity.

Maybe even if you share it with a
family member, some alignment, some

communication, some trust, some
understanding with other family, employees

and owners so that you all can build
a chaos proof family business as well.

Again, hope you enjoyed this episode.

Click on the webinar from
Kennesaw State in the show notes.

We will see you again in the next
episode, as my grandfather would've said.

Thank you so very, very
much for listening.