When people think about sales, they think about that sleazy car salesperson trying to
sell you something you don't want. Now, Sarah Stockdale,
CEO of Grow Class, disagrees with this. When we talk about growth,
people are talking about hacks or they're talking about, you know,
how to dupe someone or persuade someone into doing something. And when
I think about sales, it's really just doing your job so that you are
connecting folks to a solution that's going to solve a problem that they have and
being really great at empathizing with those customers and articulating
that problem so they can see themselves in the solution. In this Marketing Pops
episode, you learn first, two exercises to help you improve your website copy.
Second, an example of a company that has done such a great job with
the website copy. Third, the power of storytelling and creating
an enemy and building that up against your customer and helping them
win that. And number four, why building a personal audience is
a must for marketers. Now, before we get started, I've created a
free Power Up cheat sheet that you can download and apply. Sarah's three tips
to write copy that sells. You can find that marketing powerups.com or in
the show notes and description below. Are you ready?
Let's go. Marketing powerups ready.
Go. Here's your
host, Rambly John.
We're going to be talking about writing copy. That sales
that really sells. You'll have this definition
of sales that I really love. You had this presentation that
I'll link in the description in show Notes. When people think
about sales, they typically think of sleazy salespeople,
but that is a misconception according to you. I'm curious,
what is selling to you? Yeah, I think so.
A lot of the time when we talk about growth, people are talking about hacks
or they're talking about how to dupe someone or persuade
someone into doing something. And when I think about sales, it's really just
doing your job so that you are connecting folks
to a solution that's going to solve a problem that they have and being really
great at empathizing with those customers and
articulating that problem so they can see themselves in the solution.
So really when you're selling, you're just connecting those two things together. You're connecting
the people who need help with the help that they
need. And that's such a good definition where sales
is about helping, like you're helping them solve a problem essentially
is what you're talking about. Yeah, I think people think about sales as extractive,
right? I'm taking money from someone, I'm taking something away
from them and I like to think of it as additive. I'm providing
a service, I'm providing value, I'm doing something
in service of this person. And if you're selling something terrible,
then yeah, it's going to feel sketchy. But I
don't want to work for companies, I don't want to mentor and
train marketers that are going to go and sell things that aren't adding real
value to their customers. That's such
a great frame shift where it's more
of an additive experience and really trying to understand the
person's problems and how your product can help solve
that specific problem is what you're really getting at.
And that's where the copy that you talked about that self
really comes in. It's really about understanding what the problem is.
I'm not going to what
is that? Really share it too much.
I'll let you share it on its own. But the first one is really about
making people feel seen. And you have this really great exercise.
I love it so much. I don't want to spoil it. It's called the we
exercise. What is this we exercise that you
mentioned in this presentation? Yeah. So it's a super
simple two minute thing that any marketer
or brand can do to just gut check whether or not
your marketing is in communication, is in conversation
with your customer. So what I want you to do is open up a Google
Doc, blank Google Doc copy and paste all of the
copy from your homepage, from your recent sales email, from your
ad campaign, whatever it is that you're working on. Paste that into the Google Doc,
then control find for the words we, us or our.
And highlight every time you talk about yourself or you're
talking in the third person. Because when
someone is arriving at your homepage or when someone is reading your
sales email, they are having a one to one experience.
You are talking to one person. They are sitting alone at their laptop or
they're sitting on the subway looking at their phone. They're not in a
collective and they expect to be spoken
to, not spoken about. And so what
you're going to do with all of these sentences where you've
got we us an hour is you're just going to highlight
those and you're going to change that to second person narration. You're going
to change that to you copy. So you are speaking directly
to your customer. This is your pain, this is
what you are going through. This is what you are experiencing.
And once you make that very honestly,
easy, simple, quick shift, folks are going
to start feeling like you are speaking directly to them.
You're speaking about their problems. And your copy is going to resonate so
much more with folks. It's going to feel less like a company talking
about me and more like a person talking to me.
And it's really like driving home that point that when you use
the you second person version of
that, it makes people feel you're talking about it. It makes people
feel seen. It makes people feel like that
company that brand gets me, gets my power bomb.
Exactly what you're saying here. And I think there's hesitation sometimes
around speaking directly to one person because brands
are like, well, we have these three user demographics that we're going
after. And so we're kind of trying to speak to all of them.
We're speaking in third person narration about ourselves and our features because we
don't want to alienate anyone by speaking directly about a specific problem
set. And if
you're speaking to three people, you end up speaking to no one. So you really
have to choose. And I'm saying that to myself. It's really, really hard
when you are trying to sell something to choose a person and write just
to that person. But I
have a couple of folks from the grow class community that like,
maya, hey, Maya, if you're watching this, I write to
you all the time because that's
the core person that we want to be solving problems for. And what
you just said there is interesting because I'm guessing Maya
is a real person, right. And you're
imagining yourself talking to a real person versus this
made up persona or this thing that you
have created of your ideal buyer
versus if you can hear them talk
and actually see them, maybe you've already chatted with them in
the past. That makes it more real rather than this made up thing,
is what I just got from what you said there.
Yeah. User personas are only useful
if they are tied to reality. Like, if they are tied to
a real human experience of an actual customer who you
intend to target into the future and who has had a delightful
experience with your product. Like, this is a person you have solved a problem for
and you know there's more of them out there. You know that there is
enough of a market of people resembling the
real person that you've had real conversations with and that you actually
understand. Sure. You can absolutely build a buying persona
around that. The buying personas that fail are the ones that are just like
mark is between the ages of 22 and 35.
He works in finance downtown and takes the subway to work. Mark has
1.2 children. Mark doesn't exist.
Mark's not real. Mark doesn't give a shit. So we
need real humans to have real conversations
with. That's so good. And it really drives home the point that
it's important for us marketers to sometimes
there's this wall between marketers and
then the customers. And then having that maybe a
few conversations make it more real because there's
that human connection. Like you've seen, you chatted
with Maya, you've chatted with that buyer, and it makes it more
real. Rather than mark with 1.2.
How do you even get the .2 kids there? I worked with
the bank when I was consulting that one of their personas
had 2.5 children.
2.5.5. Couldn't just
choose. Couldn't just choose. We took the average.
So good. This whole discussion about having that
you statement, I feel like that drives the second tip that you
provided around really tapping into people's emotion.
You're so good at exercises because this is the one that you have around
customer storytelling exercise what is
that and how does that tie back to tapping into
the people's emotions? Yeah, I would say some
marketers find these exercises really challenging.
When you say, I want you to shift into second person narration and
speak directly to the pain and the story of a
specific customer, it's hard to conjure that image in
their head if they haven't done this kind of work. So what I
always ask people to answer is, like, if your customer,
if the person that you're trying to talk to in your marketing woke up at
03:00 A.m. Thinking about something to do with the pain
that you're trying to solve, what is that anxiety,
what is that voice in their head telling them? And so
what that forces you to do is this kind of extreme empathy
with your customer. So not only why do they use my
product, what might they be doing when they use my product,
but what is the
moment of fear or pain or anxiety that they are having
in their most vulnerable moment that you are
set up to help solve for them? And then what is
the context that they're in when they're seeking for this, seeking the
solution? What emotions are they feeling? What are they
hoping their life looks like after a lot of the time,
we are talking about features
and demonstrating
the capabilities of a product, when really all that person
wants to know is, is my life going to be a little bit better after
this? Is this annoying thing going to go away? Are you going to help me
pull this sliver out of my toe? And so you really need to
know what that sliver is and what it feels like to have it so
that you can articulate what that solution is going to be like for that person.
It ties back to a LinkedIn post you wrote
around knowing that Customer's Dragon.
It is so good because it brings up ideas of
King Arthur and Shrek and the dragon.
Shrek, I love, like, really knowing your customer's dragon.
And this storytelling exercise you're talking about is like, what is,
I guess, the biggest dragon that they have at this moment that keeps them
up at night is really what you're talking about there?
Yeah. And to be honest, that conflict doesn't have to be.
When I say dragon, I think people think, like, it has to be this big,
ridiculous pain. And then someone's like, I'm selling hair extensions. Like,
what pain? What pain are you talking about? So what you
have to do is get into the moment of tension where that
person is looking for a solution to a problem.
And maybe that problem is just like, my ponytail looks thin and
I want it to look great. And that's going to enable this
confidence for me to go to this wedding next weekend that my ex boyfriend's going
to be at and I'm going to feel great. And so that's enough
tension that you can dig in and find a story and tell a story to
that person that's going to resonate with their current where
they're at and teach them about what that transformation could look like for
them. What you just said there, about the hair
extension feeling that confidence and
making me look I'm not sure that confidence
builder is so important. I think people, especially in B two B,
there's often this hesitation to
my buyer is logical. They go through this.
Buyer is logical. Everyone is emotional. No buyer is logical,
I promise you. I know people want to seem emotional.
They can think of themselves as emotional, and that's something that you should know as
a marketer. But no one is buying from a place of logic.
Everyone is buying from a place of feeling and emotion. That's so
true. I was going to ask you a follow up to
that. What would you say to somebody who says that my bias logical?
You're saying that people also have the emotion.
People in B two B, when they buy together as
a group with stakeholders, there's also that emotional part
of like, I don't want to look like a fool,
my boss. Yes. The fear
of looking silly or the fear of being perceived as
less intelligent or less successful than someone is a real
thing that we have to think about. Especially in b two B. SaaS the
other thing is too people aren't like when you are
working at a company in a B two B scenario where you might be buying
software. Maybe you are thinking big
picture. Maybe you are thinking about the impact of this software on every single team
member and how it's going to integrate into your work. Sure, maybe you're thinking about
those things. You're probably thinking about your bonus.
You're probably thinking about your promotion. You're probably thinking
about what are the three things that my boss told me I have to do
so that I can get into the next salary band? So B two B
marketers need to understand what those motivations are. They need to understand
the person who is pulling out the credit card and making this purchase.
What are they being measured on? How are you going
to help them look good? How are you going to stroke their ego?
How are you going to make them appear smarter or more successful
to their boss? Because that is human motivation.
We want to look good. We want to do well. We want to be perceived
as intelligent and successful. And you should be enabling that
at every level of your marketing for your customer.
That's so good. I think people don't realize I
guess it goes back to the beginning where you talking to real buyers,
make you realize they want to
get promoted, maybe even this time they want
to keep their job. What's happening with the tech world?
We're like, yeah, I want to make sure I make the right choice here,
or else I might be part of the next
round of layoffs. So that's really important.
In terms of a company that's doing this well.
Do you have an example of a home page that is
really focused on making their audience feel seen and tapping
into that emotional as well as that social factor that we've been talking
about? Yeah, absolutely.
So this is going back a little bit. I don't know if this is still
their current homepage. And to be honest, there's been some political stuff
with this company. So I'm not endorsing this product at all.
But Basecamp, at some point, hired a really great copywriter. And this
person understands not only you
copy, they speak in second person narration really well. They speak
directly to their core user, but they use a really great
copywriting trick called the before and after trick.
So in grow class, we talk a lot about how you
are as the marketer, as the company.
You are not Luke.
You don't get to be Dorothy in the story of wizard of Oz.
You don't get to be the protagonist of the copy
that you're writing. That's not your role in the story.
No one wants to read a story about a B, two B, SaaS software as
the protagonist. Your customer is
the protagonist of this story. What you get to be as
the company, which is, I think, a very fun role,
is you get to be Glinda, the good witch. You get to be Yoda.
You are the person in this story that is enabling the success and
the development of the protagonist. You are removing obstacles for them.
You are waving a magic wand and making things better for them. You are
helping them pave a path. And so when I think about
before and after copy, like what Base camp did, what they are
showing is here is the conflict or the tension
or the problem that you're currently experiencing. Let me wave my
magic wand and show you what it could look like if
you had access to this software or access to this
product. So what they do really well is instead of
saying, we're productivity software for
your teams and we have these features, they say right now
you feel really disorganized. You feel like your work is all
over the place. You don't know where to find things. It feels like
chaos. And you create that tension and that conflict,
and you put your customer back into the moment when they feel that most acutely.
And then you give them the option of transformation.
You say, here's what this could look like instead. And then you
lay out a different version of how their
life could look after. And that's the galinda, the good witch. I've waved
my magic wand. Something has changed for you.
And now this is what we're enabling in terms of transformation for this customer.
Before I continue, I want to thank the sponsor for this episode, 42 Agency.
Now, when you're in scale up growth mode and you have to hit your KPIs,
the pressure is on to deliver demos and sign ups. And it's a
lot to handle. There's demand, gen, email sequences, rev ops and
more. And that's where 42 Agency, founded by my good friend Camille Rexton,
can help you. They're a strategic partner that's helped b two B SaaS companies
like Profit, AWOL, Teamwork, Sprout, Social and Hubdoc
to build a predictable revenue engine. If you're looking for
performance experts and creatives to solve your marketing growth problems today
and help you build the foundations for the future,
look no further. Visit 42 Agency.com to talk to
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Well, let's get back to the episode. That's so good.
I love that example.
I'm shouting out grow classes here as well. I'm on the homepage
right now. And you apply the same approach where halfway
down the page it says you're feeling unsupported at work.
There's this quote from Jess Piccoloto from Bolt.
It says, I feel like I've found my people. And you're really talking
about that before and after here. I guess it's very
deliberate, this approach to the homepage that you
have on growclass homepage.
Yeah, it's very much the story of a
lot of our customers, which is, I'm a solo marketer
at work, or I'm part of this team, but I don't really feel like I'm
being invested in in terms of my education. A lot of the time
I feel out of my depth. My boss will ask me to do something or
I'll be given a project at work. At startups,
you know, this nobody really tells you how to do things or trains you
or helps you in any way. So you're like, I kind of feel like I'm
out of my own here. I know I'm smart, I know I'm good at this.
I literally just need a support network and
some hard skills training, and that's what
grow class is. So again,
taking a very common customer story that we have,
writing that narrative, putting them back in that moment of tension and then saying like,
hey, we can actually resolve that tension for you. And going back to
coming to this from a place of authenticity and values
alignment. We have the receipts. We know we can actually
do that for people. So I wouldn't
be writing that story if it was an aspirational story. I know we can do
that for people. We have the receipts, we have the testimonials, we have
the data to support it. So that's, again,
like, you can do a lot of black magic with good copy.
And I really want people to use these tools for good. When you're
talking about a receipt, like two thirds on the page here, like, average salary increase
for pro class grads 27,006.
That's such a powerful,
I guess, social proof or proof on its
own showing that value. That receipt you're talking about that
you're backing up what you're saying with these
words where I also want to call it one thing that I really
love that is on this page, it says you deserve to
make more money and feel good about your career. I feel like that
goes back to Yoda. You're talking about know,
we're on your side. Yoda is on like,
we're we want you to win and we're
on your side. Exactly. That copy is saying that right
there. My entire job,
my entire team's job is to
make that real for as many people as we possibly can.
And that means finding the right people that are going to be successful inside
of grow class. That means supporting the hell out of the people who join us
and giving them access to as many tools and resources and network as
we possibly can. There's a lot of online courses,
so that's also, like objection statement busting because a lot of people have
had bad experiences with online courses. Fair, that's not
our fault, but it is our problem. We have to differentiate
and provide the proof and the receipts and the results and then
again, provide people a way out. So another thing that I recommend a lot
of the time for copywriting is if you are in an industry
like we're in online course sales, you know how many bad marketing courses exist
on the Internet? So do I. It's a mess out there.
So we have a 14 day money back guarantee.
We've never had anyone ask for it,
but we would willingly give it to anyone if they asked for their money back
because we know you need to feel safe when you're making a
big purchase, especially if you've been burned before.
And that's our responsibility to make sure that you
feel safe. You mentioned something there that we didn't
touch upon about how everything, some of the stuff
you talked so far is about handling that objection without
mentioning the objection itself. You're talking about we
have the receipts to back it up. Speaks to objection that you just said
you've been burned by a bunch of people have been burned by bad marketing
courses in the past, and you're directly handling objections there.
Yeah, that's another thing that I would say to
write really great copy that's going to convert and sell
your customers, you have to not only be aware of their
problems, their pain, the context that they're in, how they're feeling
when they're experiencing the problems that you're solving.
You also have to be aware of all of the reasons they'd say no,
all of the very legitimate reasons that they wouldn't buy from
you. And if you don't
have an answer for each of those things, then your job is to go out
and find that answer or create that answer so that
you can have a really authentic
way of speaking to those potential objections and
handling them in a way
that is values aligned and true.
So if someone asks for their money back,
we'll give it to them. It's true and
understanding not only someone saying, oh,
your software is too expensive, because that's what people say all the time.
What's behind that? What is
driving the feeling of scarcity that they
have? Is it the marketing budget got cut?
Is it that their team is being laid off? Is it that you are only
providing yearly versus monthly payment options?
What does too expensive mean to that person? And then how can you pick that
apart and build a different story for them?
And part of that objection around expensive often is like,
I don't feel like I'm going to get the value in return out of
this payment what I'm paying.
Right. That's why the receipt part is so good because it's right
below it. We're like, sure it costs you this much,
but your return on average that we found of our
students is 27,600.
And then my brain is like, okay,
if I put in this much, I get ten times that's. No brainer. That's a
no brainer decision. Exactly what you did there, your team
did with that cop. That's what you're saying.
Yeah, exactly what you
said. When the objection is that something is too expensive, it doesn't always
mean that your pricing is wrong. Sometimes it means that your positioning
is wrong in the market or you haven't justified the expense
to that customer. You haven't given them enough value in exchange because
again, it's not extractive, it's added in.
You should be giving back ten X of what you are taking.
It's going back full circle to the very beginning.
Well, thank you for sharing. I want to shift gears and talk about career power
ups. Those are things that have accelerate your career. You've been in marketing
now for mentioned over 13 years. You've had
stints at Ted Talks as director of Sponsorship Tilt.com,
as head of Growth before they got acquired by Airbnb. And now you're CEO and
founder of Grow class. What's a power up that's helped accelerate your career?
That's helped you level up in terms of your career
so far, I would. Say the thing
that has helped me the very most has been relationships.
And a lot of people say my network. I don't
really think of it that way because, again, going back to
what we were chatting about earlier, network feels
the word feels a little bit more transactional than the way I like to think
about it. I like to think about how
do I build intentional relationships where we can add value
to each other through our careers and we can just jam and have fun
and help each other and just make friends. So, to be honest,
when I was really, really early in my career, I would go to all of
these networking events in Tech where I was one of the only women in
these rooms because this was a very long time ago,
but I was there because I was trying to
learn how to do my job. I wasn't there because I was trying to build
a network or make friends, but it was like a byproduct of just being in
those rooms all the time. I just made all these friends with these really smart,
incredible, lovely humans who I'm still in touch with now. And the
world in marketing, in Tech is a
very small town. It feels very big when you first enter it.
It's a very, very small town and I grew up in a very small town,
so I know what those dynamics are like. So treating
your career like a small town and treating all of the people that you interact
with as more than a network, as potential friends and
investing in those relationships that is going to
show up for you in so many incredible ways that you
are not going to expect. So yeah,
go out and make a whole bunch of friends is
the best thing that I did for my career that I'm grateful to my past
self for. When you think about
you said the word network sounds so weird.
Like when you think about network, you think about pewters and there
is almost like that lack of humanness
right. The term like networking
makes me think of business school when everyone was trying to how many business
cards can I hand out? And now we live in a world where business cards
don't make sense.
But no one in business school tells
you to go make a bunch of friends, right?
It might be a weird question in terms of like how
do you make friends? I know
it myself. But for people who might be early in their career,
who is tuning in? Is it
about finding connections like hobbies outside of work or anything
else? Your advice on how people can find make
that real connection instead of the business card transaction
that we might have learned in school? I think you're
like the most perfect example of this. Just be insatiably curious
about other. People. I think when
you're out, whether or not it's at a tech event or
just having coffee with someone, a lot of people think that
their job is to come off as impressive, which means
that they talk a lot and that's okay. But the
way to develop a relationship is to deeply care about the experiences
of the other person and get really curious about who that person is and what
motivates them and what they care about and what that's going to give you is
the ability to help them because you're going to know what they need.
So that is what creates that authentic
relationship, that authentic curiosity about the
people that you interact with in your career, and then the
work that it takes to maintain those relationships and check in on
those people and see how you can be of value to them
past that one interaction. That's so good. I feel
like that applies to what we just talked about before, where you caring
about buyers and being curious about it.
It's almost like you're building that relationship even with that
buyer so that you can speak deeper on a deeper level
with there. That's such a good tip there in
terms of one final question. If you can give yourself your
younger self a piece of advice, it could be one advice or
two piece of advice, or however many you would want.
What would be something that you would share, travel back
in time and then give a younger version of Sarah as
an advice? It could be about career, it could be around marketing, it could be
about life. Buddy would be that advice you'd give if you're a younger you?
Yeah. I think for a long time growing
up in organizations that were engineering focused, I felt
like when we were talking about before, like, you have to appeal to the logic.
I really felt that the superpowers
that I felt like I had as a young marketer in
empathy and customer development and writing,
I guess I didn't value those things about
my skill set. And I thought that in order to be successful in these organizations
that I had to be the hardcore growth hacker, that I had to get
really wonky about data. And I did, and I learned
SQL, and I did all those things, but the
superpowers that kept coming up and kept giving me opportunities
were the things that I was naturally good at
writing, taking care of people, empathizing with people, building community,
and I didn't value those skills. And I
spent a lot of time trying to be a different kind of marketer.
And I just hope that folks just take
advantage of the things that come naturally to you and
don't feel like because you're not a wonky
experimental growth hacker in a blue patagonia
vest learning out over pivot tables in SQL
that you are any less valuable, your skill
set, the things that come naturally will
help. And then I think the only other thing is just
like, yeah, make friends, be kind to people, be good to people.
Don't be afraid to be cringey because you
have to fail in public. You have to build your career in public.
And if you're so scared to be cringey, you're never going to connect
with anyone or build an audience or do anything interesting.
I feel like there's a story there with being cringey.
Do you have a story of being cringey that helped you build that relationship
or that next level? Well,
I write a personal newsletter called we need to Talk About this.
And I also build grow class. Oh, no, all good.
I also build grow class. And I think a
lot of just putting yourself out there, putting your ideas
out there, trying new platforms,
trying different things. Sometimes you're going to post on
LinkedIn to Absolute Crickets, or you're going to start building a newsletter
and it doesn't work the first time.
And I think there was a long time early in my career that I was
really hard. I was really scared to be seen trying, and failing
that was scary, to be seen trying something that maybe
wouldn't work. And that's the only way that you do anything true.
I think it's really cool to be seen trying. I want to see more people
actively trying to build audiences or actively trying to
improve their writing or to make connections. It's cool
to try that's not cringy.
And I want to see everyone's unfinished,
unpolished effort online. That's so good.
How do you get over sometimes when I post on LinkedIn still, I have
this, I guess, hesitation,
like, oh, man, what will people think about me? And it seems like,
is it doing it more often helps you get over
that fear? Or what kind of advice would you have for people who are
like, I don't want to get over that cringiness,
so to speak? I think, honestly, the best
thing that I've learned about building audience
online is if it doesn't work, no one saw it.
So it doesn't matter. It didn't work because no one saw
it. You're like, oh, I'm so scared everyone's going to see me fail. No one
saw it. The algorithm didn't show it to anyone because it wasn't
good or it was the wrong time on Wednesday. It doesn't matter
why, but if it didn't work, then no one saw it,
and there's freedom in that. And then
at the same time, anyone who would watch
you try and fail in public and cringe at that
is not a person who's ever going to support you in the first place.
And I wouldn't want anyone to hold back their gifts
and the things that they might be able to offer a potential audience or
a young marketer who needs to hear the pep talk or the tool that they
really could use that would really help them in their career. I don't want you
to hold back what you can offer because
some girl from high school might make
a face when she reads it, because who cares? That person was
never going to be in support of you to begin with.
So, yeah, get caught trying.
Get caught trying. I love that. And I love that advice. Like, if it
doesn't work. Nobody really saw it anyway.
That's the nature of algorithms, right? Like, if it's crickets,
then the crickets mean no one saw it, so that's fine.
I keep saying this is the last one, but you've mentored a
lot of marketers through grow class and throughout your
career. Is that an advice you would give them to build an audience
earlier than later? Or what's your
thoughts? Yes. So especially in the
economy that we have right now, you were mentioning, like, a lot of people are
fearing that they might be laid off. It's a
fair fear. There are a couple of things that you can
be doing consistently that are always going
to serve as like a bit of a parachute for you, regardless of
what happens if you're working full time, if you're freelancing,
and those things are your relationships, your audience is a
form of power. So if you have people who are engaging consistently with
your content, who you are adding value to consistently,
that's a form of parachute. So if something were to happen
at your full time job, you have attention of
other people who could potentially help you find your next thing or sell
a book or do whatever you want to do. So that audience is cushion
and it's power, and especially for women and marginalized folks.
I never want people to be stuck in spaces where
they don't feel safe or valued. And so what you need to be
consistently doing in your career is building these different forms of
parachute so you never feel like you are stuck in those
spaces. So I want you to have a big audience, I want you
to have a big newsletter, I want you to have a big, powerful network
because those things are going to pad
some of the harder bumps that you're going to have along the road. That's so
good. It's really about giving you more options there. And like,
you talked about the parachute and I love that
you don't want them to get stuck in giving them, I guess, an out
if they're in. A place that is not yeah,
yeah. It's just another form of power that you can start
to build for yourself. But I want people to have more. Of such a
fun chat with Sarah to learn more about her work. You can go to growclass
co. They have a cohort coming up. You can also subscribe
to their newsletter, Grow Notes, right on that site.
She also has a personal newsletter called We Need to Talk About this.
You can find that at wntta co. Follow her on
LinkedIn, on Twitter, all those links are in the show. Notes and Description
thank you to Sarah for being on the show. If you enjoyed this episode,
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