The lions' den with George Lapshynov – Daniel E4

What do we learn from the story of Daniel and the lions' den?

In this episode we're joined by special guest, George Lapshynov from Theos Think Tank. George is a researcher and wrote some of the devotionals for the Daniel Edition of the Rooted Journal. We discuss the story of Daniel and the lions' den and explore what it tells us about living counter-culturally in a society where we may not feel at home. We look at the themes of compromise, the consequences of sin, and how God has ultimate power and control over this situation. The story highlights the importance of serving God continually and not compromising in our faith, even in the face of pressure. We finish with a reflection on how a focus on continually serving God can help to guard against temptations to compromise.

Timestamps

• (00:00) - What we're looking at today
• (01:00) - Introduction to George Lapshynov
• (02:30) - The lions' den summarised
• (03:20) - What is this story all about? Who are the satraps?
• (10:00) - How Daniel and the Jews lived in Babylon
• (15:03) - How do we live in society as Christians?
• (23:24) - God's ultimate power and sovereignty
• (28:04) - The consequences of sin
• (33:14) - Darius praises God
• (34:29) - Focusing on serving God instead of temptations to compromise

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Creators & Guests

Host

Esther King

Esther is part of Bible Society's Communications team.

Host

Mark Woods

Mark is a Baptist minister and sometime journalist, who now heads up Bible Society's comms team.

Guest

George Lapshynov

George is a Researcher at Theos Think Tank. He holds degrees in International Relations and History & Politics from the University of Glasgow.

Producer

Jack Morris

Jack works with digital content all across Bible Society.

What is The Rooted Podcast?

Listen to The Rooted Podcast for in-depth conversations about the Bible and how we can apply it to our lives. Join the team behind Rooted, Bible Society's devotional journal, as we dig deeper into a theme or book of the Bible in each series and explore its message for us today.

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Welcome back to The Rooted Podcast from Bible Society. I am Mark and if you're a regular listener wondering why I'm not Noel who usually introduces these podcasts, she is taking a break. So today I am joined by Esther and by George who is a special guest this week.
Today we're continuing our look at Daniel and probably not just one of the most famous stories in Daniel but is probably one of the most famous stories in the whole Bible, Daniel and the Lion's Den. And we're going to be looking at what this tells us about living counter -culturally in a society where we may not feel entirely at home. We'll be thinking about compromise, the times when we might want to compromise and think that's okay, and the times when we really shouldn't. We will also be thinking about the wider consequences of sin and...

Hopefully that'll become clearer a little bit later. So firstly, George, welcome to you. It's the first time you've joined us and you're here because you contributed to the Rooted Daniel journal. And I just wondered if you could just introduce yourself briefly for our listeners. Well, thank you very much for having me here on the Rooted podcast. It's an honor. So I am a researcher at the Think Tank Thales. We do social research on

the impact of faith on society, the role of faith organizations and churches in the UK, how they impact social cohesion, how they impact homelessness, the roles that cathedrals play in or churches play as physical buildings and communities, but also trying to tease out what religious people in the UK think. Where do Christians stand on social issues and political issues?

and it's fascinating work. That's really interesting, George. And I think it's really good that we've got you in this particular edition, actually, because you and Theos in general, you seem to sort of sit at the interface between the church and wider culture in some ways. Just before we continue, just let me remind you to send us your questions and rate us and review us. It really helps us to get more people listening to the podcast.

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I just want to start with a story. This is the story that those of us who grew up in Sunday school, we all hear it in Sunday school, there is a decree that nobody is to pray to anybody except the king for 30 days on penalty of being thrown into the lion's den. Daniel prays anyway. He is thrown to the lions. He is unharmed because God shuts the lions' mouths.

The king doesn't want to throw him to the lions, but he does because it's the law of the Medes and Persians and he has no choice. When he is extracted from the lions den, his accusers come to a very sticky end indeed. That's the bit that they don't tell us about in Sunday School. And we will certainly come back to that later on in the podcast. So that's the story in a nutshell. But I thought I would start just by asking Esther.

know, what is this all about? Why the tension between Daniel and the satraps and what is a satrap anyway? Yes, yeah, good question. It really does help to kind of understand what their role was. Right there in verse one of chapter six, it says that Darius sets over his kingdom 120 satraps. So these are people that already have some degree of power and authority over

provinces of the kingdom. And according to the commentaries that I've read, what did that involve? Well, provinces would give tribute to the king. So I guess it's similar to taxes. And satraps were also responsible for, well, they were responsible for collecting those tributes and passing them on to the king. And they were responsible for security as well in those provinces. So these are people with power.

So you've got the satraps and then you've got the king and in between them you've got three, it says at the start of this, high officials. And Daniel is one of these high officials and his job is to keep the satraps accountable. So he's sort of like an anti -corruption force, I guess, making sure that nobody cheats the king out of any of these tributes, that security is...

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You know, being administered properly, it's not like a protection racket, but it's actually just. So the source of the tension, reading between the lines, yes, there's jealousy from the sat traps that Daniel is in a higher position than them. And in fact, he goes on to be promoted again because he does such a good job. So he's even, you know, the highest high official, essentially. But also,

He's a really inconvenient figure because they want to be corrupt. These sat -traps want to engage in corruption and he's stopping them. I think that's what the source of tension is. That's really interesting. I have to say, I had not really picked that up before you said that. I thought, you know, maybe it's just a bit of early anti -Semitism or, you know, maybe it's just they don't like this foreigner coming in and kind of lauding it over them.

But actually, it comes down to money again, doesn't it? Money and power. I mean, they do make sure to mention when they accuse Daniel of not complying with his decree, they do instantly say, this exile from Judah, you know, they use that as kind of a tool to sort of say, there should be suspicion on this man. He's not of us, essentially. So I don't know that, you know, that idea of maybe as early antisemitism, perhaps that is an element.

But I think beyond that, we've got a much more simple and timeless story of power and influence, the struggle for that, and of corruption. So it's quite contemporary really, isn't it? Yeah. And where does King Darius come into this? I mean, how are they sort of manipulating him to get what they want? They are really playing on his ego because

They flatter the king by suggesting to him this law out of the blue, that suddenly, for an arbitrary period of time as well, the whole thing is a bit odd. But they come to him, they flatter him, King Darius, live forever. Here is a magnificent idea. Maybe for 30 days, everyone should just pray to you. And Darius doesn't have the

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the distance to think, hmm, this is an odd suggestion out of nowhere. And he's immediately very flattered by this and immediately enacts it, obviously with down the line some unfortunate consequences. at the time, it seems like a wonderful idea. Why wouldn't my people pray to me for 30 days? us, it seems ridiculous that anybody would agree to that. But maybe at the

time, it wouldn't have been such a thing, you know, it wouldn't have been such an outlandish idea. I don't know, but even so, just telling people to stop praying to the gods that they would normally pray to, I mean, that's a high -risk strategy, isn't it? know, so the gods, the priests in these various temples to Bel and Madhuk and what have you.

They wouldn't be getting the offerings. They wouldn't be getting the income. The whole religious life of the nation just shuts down. Yeah, I mean, that really struck me. You know, I think it does just go to show the level of foolishness of Darius in this. mean, perhaps he liked the idea, I want everyone to come to me as a source of blessing. You know, obviously in his position of

power over the empire, it does flatter his ego. But can you imagine how busy he was going to be for those 30 days as well, actually seeing this through? I don't think he'd thought about that. it really, I think it speaks to just the level of the conspiracy really of these schemers, not just against Daniel, but against the king, because they really take him for a fool here. And he realizes that.

quite quickly and he's devastated about the consequences of this thoughtless agreement that he's signed. I mean, obviously, George, you said, yes, he should have realized this is sort of out of the blue, but we know that it's not out of the blue because its whole aim, this decree, is that this is the only way we're going to be able to discredit Daniel, is if we make

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if we do something that interferes with him following the law of his God. So it's out of the blue for anything sensible in society, but it's not out of the blue for them in their desire to trip up Daniel and get what they want. Presumably for the average Babylonian, stopping praying to your own particular God wouldn't have been that much of a thing.

It's only Daniel and the Jews in Babylon for whom this is just a huge thing because they're not going to pray to Darius, and Daniel is not going to stop praying to God either. There's this exclusive nature of the Jewish faith.

So there is one God and that's that. He's not one God among many others, it's just one. It kind of sets Daniel and his friends, the Jewish community, generally in Babylon, it sets them completely off to one side of the culture that they were living in. think we can see that Daniel very masterfully navigates Babylonian society. His

incredibly well integrated. He was, we could say, in the world, but he was not off that society, and he certainly didn't feel bound by the decree not to pray to the God of Israel. So, there is this dual level of navigating this society and even having a very good relationship with the king and doing God's work as well.

over the years through miracles for this society, but of not being bound by it. Darius has made this decree, but Daniel hasn't forgotten the decrees or the laws of God, and they clearly supersede, especially any temporary, like 30 -day injunction from an earthly king. I was thinking, actually, as we were preparing, well, what kind of petition in prayer?

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might Daniel have been making. And I mean, we do have an example of Daniel interceding, making petition to God in Daniel chapter 9, you know, basically calling God to end this time of exile. And it actually links right back to Solomon's prayer when he's dedicating the temple, it's in 1 Kings chapter 8. And he says that it's this amazingly powerful prayer.

he's kind of consecrating the temple, he's talking about the people's covenant with God, and he's looking at people, looking into the future and imagining some of the bumps in the road that they might experience. So in 1 Kings chapter 8 verse 46, he's got this bit in there, if they sin against you, or basically when the people of God sin against you, be merciful. And he even mentions exile. So he says,

If they sin against you, for there is no one who does not sin and you are angry with them and give them to an enemy so that they are carried away captive to the land of the enemy, far off or near, yet if they turn their heart in the land to which they've been carried captive and repent and plead with you in the land of their captives, if they repent with all their heart and with all their soul, basically, we'll be merciful to them, accept them.

I think Daniel, he seems to have been well -versed in the scriptures and in the law of God. He would have known about this prayer, and he's basically petitioning every day in the land of his captors, you know, just like the people in Persia and in Babylon haven't forgotten that he's an exile from Judah. He hasn't forgotten either. And he's always calling on God to kind of keep this sort of faithful promise that

he has with his people to redeem and restore them. So maybe he's petitioning in that kind of way. Maybe, maybe. But I mean, it's interesting that when, if you actually read Daniel, it just says three times today, he got down on his knees and prayed, giving thanks to his God just as he'd done before. So maybe that he was praying for a return from exile. I'm sure he was actually.

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But in context, just says that he gives thanks to God, just as he's done before. it's as though it's completely routine what he's doing. He's just not going to change anything that he does just because these wretched satraps have got it in for him. I mean, he knows exactly what's going to happen, but he does it anyway. addition to this, I think the fact that it says, as he had done previously in my version, or as he'd done before, he doesn't do less, but he also doesn't do more.

He could have gone on the public square and said, as a sign of protest, I'll just turn this into a show. But that's not what he does either. Life goes on. He does exactly everything as it did before. The decree might not have happened at all. Everything stays the same. It doesn't concern him. mean, I suppose the question that lies behind all of this for us is how does that translate into how we live?

in society today, in lots of ways in this country, society is quite hospitable to Christianity. It's not that we face persecution, no lions or anything like that, that's fine. But there are points at which we kind of butt up against the way that people think, the way that people act, the way that we're expected to act as Christians is not always in line with

how other people act. And I just wonder, you know, what the lessons are for us as to how to navigate the tensions that there are today. Many times as Christians in society, even if we don't have the threat of a lion's den hanging over us, we might feel pressure to compromise on our faith or to take things that we would usually do publicly and make them very private and hidden.

I I recognize that tension. It's slightly different to this story with Daniel, though, in a way, because their whole plan hangs on him not compromising. They know from the start that Daniel is not going to compromise in his faith. We want him to go ahead and do what he's always done because they think that they can kill him off and remove him with that plan. They've counted God out of the equation.

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This is all about the fact that there is no chance that he will compromise. If he had compromised, they would have been like, what do we do now? I think it is worth considering what would the cost have been if he decided to defeat them in that way by just going along with it. It would have shown that under the right circumstances, he was willing not to serve his god as he had done before. And that is a slippery slope. And I think that's

something that I take very much from this story. think this story, one of the reasons why we tend to talk about Daniel as being this hero of faith is because he doesn't compromise and we fear that we might, or we have at various points compromised, we might think to ourselves, look, is this worth dying over?

But then when we make small compromises, what are we actually sacrificing in doing that? And what message are we sending to the people around us about our love for God and our fear of them?

I think something that comes up continually, we'll see in a bit as the story progresses, is Darius, he talks about Daniel, your God, whom you serve continually. It's about this idea of serving God continually, no matter what. And I want to be someone who does that. And I suppose that's maybe a more positive focus than the temptations to compromise. It's just to not worry about

those temptations, but to be like, what does it look like to serve my God continually?

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I think there's another aspect to this as well, which is I'm reminded of Luke 17. Those who try to make their life secure will lose it, but those who lose their life will keep it. And it is about compromise. If Daniel had tried to make his life secure in Babylon, he would actually ultimately have lost it in some way, I think, I imagine, because the satraps would have continued plotting until the very bitter end.

cotton the best of him. He gave up that security. So naturally, I think it's really striking when you read Daniel how it doesn't, didn't, we don't really know all the things that go on in Daniel's mind, but it seems so natural. He didn't even consider any other options. This was the only thing to be done and he did it. George, I'm going to quote back at you something that you wrote in the Rooted Journal, which I thought was really striking.

One of things you wrote was, unless I have complete trust in the God who loves and cares for me, I'm vulnerable to the crippling power of fear and susceptible to the outside pressures of the world. Unless I trust God with my life, I will never be free from the intrigues of the forces of evil, even if it leads me into the lion's den. God is waiting for me there. And I thought that was a brilliant insight, actually, that

if we end up going into the lion's den, God is waiting for us there. I really like that. And I just think that relates back to what you were just saying, that we have to try and find a way of living continually in the presence of God, continually aware that we're living under the eyes of God, and that the decisions that we make are

in the presence of God. And I think that's probably a lot more complex sometimes, those decisions, than we might think. I mean, I'm just thinking of Daniel and Daniel's life because actually, he must have been making compromises all the time. He must have been living in a way which really grated on him sometimes.

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just because he was a Jew, a faithful observant Jew in this culture which was totally non -Jewish. You know, it's not obvious that he was doing the right thing. I mean, it would be obvious that he shouldn't pray to Darius. Obviously, this was a red line for him, wasn't it? This was a complex situation and that we all face complex situations. you know, it's not always easy to navigate our way through these.

No, there's quite a lot of grace as well, I think, to be had. When we have compromised, that's not necessarily the end for us because we can repent, we can turn back, can sometimes be like, okay, I've behaved in this way, but I now see that that wasn't right and I want to honour God from here on in. This is what I should have done and this is what I will do from now. I think there is something about the unknowability of

the outcomes of situations when we are in a moment of crisis and we need to make a decision. I think we're, sadly, am often tempted to project the worst case scenario ahead. actually, really, you can't be afraid of what might come next and have faith in God at the same time. That's a contradiction of meaning. I realize that

really often underestimate what God can do for us, especially if we of boldly and cheerfully trust and go ahead with the right thing to do. me just take us off in a slightly different direction, because one of the themes in this story is power. The question of who has power and how it's used.

So, for instance, we know that the Assyrians and the Babylonians, for these people, lions had a sort semi -sacred status. So, they had ritual lion hunts, for instance, where they would trap a load of lions and release them into an enclosure. And then the king or the high official would actually hunt them and chase them, shoot them with a bow. And this was a demonstration of power. So, the king had power over the lions. So, it's all about the

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power of the beasts. And this image of the beasts is used throughout Daniel as well. In the next chapter, it talks about four beasts. One is a lion with the wings of an eagle, there's a bear, there's a leopard, and then there's something which is described as a great and terrible beast. So the image of the lion is all about power.

The king is supposed to be powerful as well, but in this story, the lions don't have power because God shuts the lion's mouths, and the king doesn't have power either because the king is under the law. The king cannot change what he has once said that he's going to do. So, this is about power, actually.

it seems to me that it's saying that over the power of the king, over the power of the lions, there is God who is in complete control of everything that's happening. think that is one of the big realizations in this story. When Darius, you know, he's realized the trap that he's fallen into, it says, I think, is it verse...

verse 14, that he's really distressed and he sets his mind to deliver Daniel. So deliver him from, I guess, the law, from the snatches of these schemers who are conspiring against him, from the lions. And it says that he labored till the sun went down to rescue him. He cannot find a loophole. There's nothing he can do. He realizes he is powerless, even though he's the king. And then in verse 16,

In the moment that he has to go ahead and cast Daniel into the den of lions, he declares to Daniel, may your God, whom you serve continually, deliver you. So that's the recognition of the only one who can deliver Daniel now is God. And it's actually an interesting comparison, isn't it, with chapter three, when we've got Nebuchadnezzar and Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, just before he throws them into the fiery furnace, he says,

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Who's the God who's going to deliver you from my hand? And meanwhile, now moving on, we've got Darius saying only God can save you, sort of acknowledging that, but then having to wait to see will he do it. I think it's very interesting as well that verse 17, we have this little detail about the king sealing the stone to the den with his own signet and then the signet of

of his lords and it really shows that the den is now completely isolated from the world. No one can undo this seal. It is now just Daniel, the lions and God and no one can interfere. It's almost like a lab experiment really under controlled conditions, if you want. I can't help but read the story and not think of Shro Din as cat.

You know, there's just this idea that until you look in the box to see is the cat alive or dead, it's both, kind of. And I think that this is a really interesting picture actually in this story because Daniel has been condemned to death. So in that sense, he's dead, but he's in the hands of a God who can deliver him into life. So he's both kind of dead and alive in a sense that

that thing is shut, we read that the king fasts all night, he doesn't sleep and then rushes to the den in the morning. They break the seal, they remove the stone. Has your God delivered you? So once Daniel is out of the lion's den, that's not the end of the story. And no, they really don't tell us about this in Sunday School. Not only his accusers are thrown into the den, but

their wives and children are thrown into the den as well. So it is a very unsettling, it's a very bloody end to this kind of sweet story, isn't it?

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So, this punishment of having not only the guilty person, but their entire family and all their dependents also suffer punishment was customary in the ancient East. actually, the Jewish people really stood out in this regard because in Deuteronomy 24, we read that Moses forbade that the guilt be carried on by other members of the family, only the person

guilty of the crime was to be punished. But I think there is a really dark irony here that the satraps and their families are to suffer in this sort of bloody way because they are the ones who really insisted on having the law of the Medes and the Persians be executed here. Even when Darius was doubting and finding a solution, twice they say, you have to do this. It's the law of the Medes and the Persians.

And actually, if we had done this according to the law of Moses, they wouldn't have suffered, or their families certainly, or all these innocent people wouldn't have suffered. Yeah, I mean that's one way of looking at it. But I think because we've had this business in the story about God closing the mouths of the lions to prevent them from consuming Daniel, and then we read here when the satraps, the officials, their families are thrown in, they are devoured before they even hit the ground.

So there is an implication there that it is also a judgment from God because he's the one who's in control of the lions. And it does make this a really complicated picture. We can't just say, well, that's what they deserved or that's what regimes did in those days. There is a bigger question here about God's mercy and his judgment, I think.

I think that's true. I'd really want to resist the idea that this was something that God planned or willed. No, that's not what I'm saying. You're not saying that at all. No, I realize that. I think what lies behind this, comes back to this thing about the contrast between the, if you like, our beast nature and our

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better nature than nature which is in tune with God, which is doing the will of God. I suppose I see this as Darius and the Medo -Persian system handing over these people to the power of the beast or the beasts.

in a way it's God sort of removing his protection because the people don't want it. they've, if you like, they've gone to the dark side. I think we all recognise, we've seen it in our own lives, that when we sin, other people often suffer, not just ourselves. You know, if you sin, it can affect your family. that's not to say, that should happen, but

It's part of the deterrent. The reason why we shouldn't sin is because of the collateral damage that happens. And that's often a huge sign to us where we look and we see the results of our sin, not just on ourselves, but on other people. We say, is terrible. And we ask for forgiveness. repent. always have a choice really, actually, on sort of whether we want to be cloaked by God's mercy or whether we prefer

lack of mercy of the world. This is a bit nerdy of me, but I'm reminded of, you know, post -Reformation Europe, you had this legal system which was, Cuius regio eius religio, to each region its own religion, is how the Holy Roman Empire made peace internally. you have the same thing here, in that Daniel's region, if you want, his belonging was too.

the God of Israel, and so he was under the law of the God of Israel and he was saved for not being guilty of anything. And the satraps themselves chose the law by which they were judged eventually in the end. The jurisdiction under which they placed themselves. Yeah, that's a really good point. That's quite dark stuff, isn't it? It's quite difficult stuff, but the story ends in a rather good place, doesn't it?

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because you have Darius. Can we say that Darius repents? I think he certainly regrets putting Daniel in the lion's den. It says he wrote to all the peoples, nations and men of every language throughout the land, you know, in every part of my kingdom people must fear and reverence the God of Daniel. He is the living God, he endures forever and so on and so forth. So it ends in this sort of song of praise to God by the king.

And I don't think he's making the worship of the God of Israel into the sort of national religion or anything like that, but it's an acknowledgement that Daniel's God is real and should be taken seriously. It's a nice place to finish, isn't it? We've talked in previous episodes about the kind of the chiastic structure. I think it's chapter four.

Nebuchadnezzar's conclusion and the decree that he sends out to all the people and nations and tongues about how God is the most high God is, that's what this whole book actually points to. And this is a nice reinforcement of that message. It's now Darius saying it, he's acknowledging it too. do wonder, because these satraps receive punishment, but there are many more in the kingdom and many more plotting.

whether Darius won't fall into another trap and let his ego be flattered yet again. That's just part of the territory, isn't it really? I suppose all of us have to be on our guard against temptations to sins of pride and arrogance and well, every other kind of sin actually. Well, but the best antidote to that is doing as Daniel does, continually serving his God while also

You know, he clearly faithfully serves the kings of these various empires too, but ultimately the mainstay is continually serving his God, and that is what we need to do. And I think that's a great place to end. So thank you very much for listening to us. Thank you especially to George for coming along and being our guest on this episode, and we'll see you again next time.

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