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Welcome to your weekly dose of The Psychedelic Psychologist. This week we meet Ingrid who has recently been working with integrating her second experience. She provides a wonderful description of the contrast of her first experience with her most recent dive into her healing journey.
Ingrid and I process the importance of being in your body and listening mindfully to what is coming up within the body. We go into many different directions in this session from talking about being able to shut the mind off to the "trudging" we all face.
Ingrid provides a clear and practical description of the importance of integration and the continued care it takes to do this work.
If you are looking for support integrating a psychedelic experience.
The Psychedelics Integration Handbook
healingsoulsllc.com
The Psychedelic Psychologist is a conversational-style podcast hosted by Dr. Ryan Westrum with clients and guests who use talk therapy to integrate Psychedelic experiences for healing and personal transformation. Tune in to hear people’s experiences, breakthroughs and stories of healing addiction, depression, and trauma through Psychedelics. Dr. Ryan Westrum gracefully and empathetically narrates real therapy sessions with people in their most vulnerable and transformational moments.
I would like to invite you to take
a moment intentionally closing
your eyes or keeping them open,
whatever you are called to do.
Bringing your focus on
the center of attention.
Looking at that, feeling
that, and recognizing.
What the yogis would call the
drishti, the distilled focus.
Breathing in and breathing out,
simply paying, noticed attention
to your center, and all the while
remembering we have no control.
Breathing in and breathing out.
Understanding that our expectations,
our focus, and our desire to
control is potentially an illusion.
Breathing in and breathing out, making
yourself comfortable in the uncomfort.
Recognizing that we have limited
opportunity to control our expectations.
Breathing in grounding finding center,
and breathing out, releasing
control, letting go.
Finding your place in this experience
in all the while reminding you to check
in with your body center, with your
emotional heart, the feelings, the
experience, and allowing your thoughts.
To come online
quickly and calmly grounding yourself
and recognizing the places that
you have control and access to
direction to response, and places
that you have absolutely no control.
Breathing in and breathing out.
Coming back to center, coming back to
your focus, opening your eyes if they
are shut, refocusing, if they are open
and simply being in your present moment.
Hi, it's Ryan.
Welcome to your Weekly Dose of the
Psychedelic Psychologist, where I
invite my guests to share stories
about their psychedelic experiences.
We cover a variety of topics
from overcoming addiction and
severe depression to finding
wholeness in spiritual emergence.
Today's podcast, you're going to hear
from one of my guests, someone who
,I deeply respect and find complete.
Enjoyment, communicating, engaging,
and spending time with Ingrid.
Hello.
It's so good to see you,
. It's so good to see you.
Yeah, I dunno if I can live up to that.
Yes.
Good to see you too.
It's not yours to live up to.
It's mine to dump on you, . Oh, okay.
Okay.
Can you receive it?
Yeah.
It's always strange to receive
other people's, perspectives
of you to integrate that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's very weird.
Mm-hmm.
. Mm-hmm.
. Yeah.
I know.
I think we could talk about that
for like six hours, couldn't we?
Probably.
Absolutely.
Mm-hmm.
. Yeah.
But that's not what we're here for.
It isn't what you're, and you're
gonna take control of this.
Exactly.
And I'm gonna release control, as I
just said in the meditation, I'm not,
I have no clue where we're going.
But what I do know is I honor and
respect your perspective and your
journey, your healing journey.
Hmm.
You and I have known
each other for a minute.
Mm.
You've been doing some work and
recently have done some work.
Where are you at in this moment?
Before we go backwards or forwards,
where are you in this moment today?
Hmm.
In what sense?
Like, that's a great question.
You physically, emotionally knowing,
because you and I have done integration
work and we do check-ins mm-hmm.
in the last month, you've had
a pretty profound experience
and I'm just wondering, Yeah.
Where are you at
physically in this moment?
Mm-hmm.
I feel very embodied, very in touch with
my, my body, self, and kind of feel,
my heart feels pretty tender and open.
that leads me directly into
the heart of our conversation.
You know, the world, the culture, our
society talks about this mind, body,
spirit integration, this locking of sorts.
Mm-hmm.
or this fluidity between, and you just,
made me alert to your, you're embodied
and yet your heart center is definitely.
, is that easy for you to access that
connection between the body and the mind
and the heart, or does it jar you when
you start recognizing different aspects?
Because you and I are both in
tune to the theoretical, let's
talk the shit out of it.
How does it manifest for you when the
body is ringing and resonating to you?
. Well, I think ever since I did the first
psilocybin journey, that helped me
re-experience my body as something new.
And then my, the somatic work, the
psychedelic somatic work I've been
doing, I think I have lived most
of my life up here in my head,
like conceptual and intellectual.
And so it does feel very vulner.
But welcome to be in the body and to feel
literally how vulnerable it is, the body
itself, and it just feels very vulnerable.
And when you say that, I deeply
resonate with you because we can have 8
trillion books to address or reference.
Especially in the
theatrics of the cognitive.
We can get in, oh, that book
reassures me, or, oh, this brilliant
mind has told me to go that way.
Mm-hmm.
, but it's a whole different fucking story.
When all of a sudden you're opened
up in a psychedelic experience or
integrating it afterwards mm-hmm.
to walk.
It's almost as if you've fallen
and scraped your leg and you
can feel that air just kiss it.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
That's a good description.
Mm-hmm.
in what way do you connect
with that description?
How do you resonate with that?
Well that's, I mean, that is
kind of how my heart feels.
I, I think when I bring my
awareness to it, that is like that.
. When you scrape your knee and
you're little and it's like
that kind of sting, the little
stinging in the air, it's exposed.
It doesn't feel protected anymore.
Mm-hmm.
And so how would you protect
yourself, or how would you reconcile
the exposure with,, vulnerability
versus maybe a learning lesson?
How are you, I guess,
personally doing that?
What do you mean?
I'm not sure what you.
Thank you.
What this is.
Hey, and Ps, why I love
connecting with you.
You challenge me to fucking get grounded.
So , I bow to that and anyone that wants
to put me in check, just say, what do you
mean ? What I mean by that is when we feel
exposed, what is your natural inclination?
Hmm mm-hmm.
. Mm.
Yeah.
To, contract and protect.
Mm-hmm.
, protect from what?
Unknown transformation.
Evolution.
Yeah, I don't, that's
a really good question.
Damage, of some kind.
Hurt, pain.
Pain I guess is what?
At the very bottom of it would be pain.
Yeah.
And can you help me
understand that better?
Are you suggesting that it could be
pain on the horizon or reconciling
pain or a combination of the two?
I It has.
I think it has to be a combination.
and to quiet the mind to the point
where we can hear what it is.
Maybe if it's from a story
of past or a future worry.
Yeah, yeah.
, I feel like our, our bodies, I'm
starting to feel like our bodies
know a lot more than I realized.
Like, no more than I.
Like the me that I think of as me.
Can you give a lift experience
about maybe something that you
quickly honor when you say the body
knows more than what the me knows?
What was one of the quickest
and easiest access points
that you were like, holy shit.
My body does definitely know
more than I think it does.
I don't know if there is something.
So, just the, with the, all the
psychedelic work, just becoming so
more, so much more aware of what
it's telling me and then listening to
it and noticing that I feel better.
It's pretty basic, in
some ways very basic.
Like if I have to go to the
bathroom, if I'm thirsty, like.
How simple those things are, but how
conditioned we are in our culture,
in our families too sometimes to
just to ignore those things, to put
them off, to discipline ourselves.
,it just feels a lot more tender.
It sure does, doesn't it?
And ironically, you and I
tried to make this podcast and
session and conversation happen.
And it failed miserably
because of technology issues.
And now I'm resonating deeply myself
personally, because I recently
had my own embodied experience
that now I'm walking around like
hypersensitive to my awareness of body.
Hmm.
And so I'm really reflecting on
your conversation about something as
simple as the bathroom or this idea of
tiredness awareness of a knee injury.
And I think we in the world of this
renaissance of psychedelics are
forgetting, Hey, it's not just about
this spiritual journey or psychological
journey or healing trauma journey, but
let's get back in our fucking body.
Mm-hmm.
and honor it, right?
Yeah.
And that actually honoring
our body is healing trauma,
mm-hmm.
, say more about that cuz what,
how you say it is perfect.
Well, it's not so much me saying it
as what I've been learning from other
people, but, one of the things I heard
recently was somebody say was that we're,
we are incarnate in this, in this world.
Not to transcend it, but
to learn how to live in it.
And I thought that was really beautiful.
A lot of the psychedelic,
enthusiasts, including myself.
Sometimes wanna like, feel there's,
beyond and there's beauty in that too,
the sense of oceanic connectedness.
But who we are truly is also embodied.
And that we, we just don't, I
don't think we give that enough.
We honor that enough cuz it scares us.
And there's what follows up, and I
think this is gonna dovetail into
what I'm really excited to talk about,
is the reality of being in our body.
So the person that said that
is eloquent in saying it's
about learning to live in it.
Mm-hmm.
and accept it and mm-hmm.
, I think, as you call it, the
psychedelic enthusiast, does not.
Want to look at the here and
now, or the fact this is trudging
through a bunch of shit, as in Yeah.
It's so much trudging.
It's so much fucking trudging.
Can you tell me about your
personal experience of trudging
and how you're managing that?
Well, like, I mean, from the
moment we wake up, you know, we're
like, oh fuck, like, gotta take
care of our bodies, you know,
And I think if we like, the more
I, the more I identify with the.
Up in my mind, the more it feels like
trudging to take care of my body.
Or it's like, oh God, I
gotta go to the bathroom.
I gotta brush my teeth.
You know, why can't I get to
the stuff that really matters?
Like thinking, right, like
lying down, eating grapes and
ruminating about some poetry.
Yeah.
That's great.
That's right.
Listening to Mozart.
That's true.
But it that is, it's just, I.
I've heard a lot of people
say too, how, how hard it is.
Like, we have to eat dinner every day.
How frustrating is, you know, every day
we have to think about what we're going
to eat, like just that kind of trudging,
that it's inescapable, it is incapable.
And yet what I deeply appreciate
about this perspective is
that in the renaissance of
psychedelics, we can't bypass.
Spiritually, we cannot look at going,
oh, there's something on the other side.
Because what it's missing
is the fact that, mm-hmm.
, as I humbly recognized recently, is Oh
yeah, we have to honor this experience
to be able to be prepared for the next.
And I'm gonna just go off on a
little soapbox, but I believe that's
why we're incarnated is to really
place our lessons and learn them
and feel them in a physicality.
Otherwise, we would be walking around
with fucking spiritual light beings
and be like, nothing bothers us.
. Yeah.
Right, right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think, and I'm gonna
say it and be okay with it.
Psychedelics is not a one
fucking pill, one hit wonder.
It is a trudging a a
reconciling and unfolding.
Mm-hmm.
. And I would really love your
perspective of what you recently
have found in your own story.
Was it everything being invited into
this world and taking the invitation
that you thought it was gonna?
So the first journey I did with my
sitter,, had all of the qualities that I
kind of imagined that it would and more.
and it offered me an experience
that felt transcendent and
biographical and embodied.
So it sort of felt like everything
magical and real was coming together.
The second one I did did not have
those same qualities, and it was more
humbling in the sense that it really
brought me into like the reality of
relationships with people that I.
Rather than something that was
transcendent or, I guess magical.
It really kind of brought me
to look at, at myself and the
world and the people in it.
, and so there's part of me
that's disappointed by that.
Like, ah, shit, I wanted
to feel, you know, like I'm
floating on a cloud of beauty.
But you know, what good
would that do if it didn't?
I thought to myself, if these experiences
don't help me live in the world better
and and be in better relationship with
people, then what's the point of them?
Is it just to feel good?
Is it just to feel some sort of
transcendence that's really empty?
Ultimately, that literally takes the
breath out of me, and I'm grateful
for what you're saying because.
at the end of the day, what I'm hearing
you say is you're honoring the people
that you've come into contract with.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
. And the idea of the relationship
being an agreement you've made.
Mm-hmm.
in this body.
Mm-hmm.
. Mm-hmm.
. And you're also looking to
push the envelope spiritually.
You're looking to respect
yourself and go, oh, okay.
I can.
Minimize what I'm facing or
what I have, or the people
that are invited into my world.
Mm-hmm.
. Mm-hmm.
. Yeah.
This is the reality.
This is reality.
Mm-hmm.
and living in, for lack of better
terms, a hedonistic or transcendent
spiritual world is wonderful.
And I think everybody wants to get
a kiss of that or a touch of that.
Yeah.
And I would highly encourage it.
Yep.
But in our life, It's resonating deeply.
Even with the psychedelic movement, not
everyone's gonna say, Hey, that's real.
Mm-hmm.
. Mm-hmm.
. And finding a grounding cord too.
Reality, be it.
Mm-hmm.
, the Buddhist saying,
chop wood, carry water.
Be in your body.
Mm-hmm.
. Yeah.
We don't need medicine to transcend.
You need to actually
be fucking grounded in.
The nuances, right?
Yeah.
I guess that's the, that the paradox.
I like that.
How do you love that paradox?
How do you sit in that paradox?
I don't know, man.
, I don't know.
Yeah, like those moments when you're
just so in the world and so in your body
and with people, it is like a paradox.
It feels so real and alive and gritty.
There's something that feels
kind of spiritual, for lack
of a better word about it.
And coming from you to say spiritual.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm not a spiritual person.
Can you elaborate on that?
How do you integrate spirituality
or that word, when you also say
you're not a spiritual person,
how are you embodying that Every.
I just, I think the world's,
the word spiritual is like
hijacked and thrown around.
and it can be really damaging.
And it, it gets equated with a sort of
magical thinking., so not that kind of,
I'm really, I have a, maybe too much
of an aversion to that, but the idea
of spiritual and that there's more than
what I know or that I can put words to.
That I, that I can buy and
believe in, you know, because
obviously I don't know everything.
I'd be crazy if I thought that, and
that is another reason why I bow and
embrace in talking to you, is the
fact that we are humble and have no
fucking clue what we're talking about.
Yeah, I know.
No, take back everything I said.
Let's edit it and give us,
the podcast is gonna be quiet.
They're gonna be like, this is
our version of what we think.
Yeah.
I have to ask the question.
I always ask Ingrid, how are you
being gentle with yourself and all
that is unfolding and all that is
being uncovered and shown to you?
What are the ways you're
being gentle with yourself?
Gentle.
Let's see here.
Well just again, kind of
comes back to the body like.
Like, I don't have to, I'm, I'm being
more gentle with myself in terms of
what I think I have to be in the world.
Like maybe this will turn around
again and I'll become obsessed with
success or something, I don't know.
But right now I feel very
gentle in that all I really
have to be is just be a person.
And I think that some of that came up in
the work with my sitter, , the psychedelic
work that I don't have to prove or I
don't have to prove that I'm worth being.
You know that just
being a human is enough.
So that's really powerful for me.
And that feels very gentle.
I feel that.
Yeah.
Thank you.