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Each episode is a conversation between me, Eli Finer, and a budding entrepreneur, indie hacker, or solo founder.
We focus on the current biggest challenge (hint: it's never in the code) and the best next step to take (hint: it's usually not adding another feature).
If you want to be a guest on the show please reach out to me on Twitter @finereli.
Leo: I spent about the next seven
months or so trying to get a
startup off the ground and just, I
didn't really get anywhere with it.
I had the idea that like, oh,
to be a startup, like I've
just gotta go raise money.
it was this idea that I was like looking
around and saying oh, what do people say?
They're like, oh, you need a co-founder?
And I'm like, great.
Hey, you wanna be my co-founder?
Like,
Eli Intro: Hey guys, my name is
Ellie finer, and this has stopped
building where I do my best to get
founders to set aside their ID.
And find some users or
even paying customers.
Today, I'm talking with Leo Guinen.
It was building a customizable or
even personalizable search engine.
Let's see what his got and
where he can find some users.
Eli: This is just my second,
episode, so I'm still, the
podcast doesn't have a name.
it has only a rough theme.
I'm like, oh, this is the kind of
thing I want to figure out as I go.
but in general, what seems to be happening
is that we'll get to know each other a
little bit and talk about our, background.
and then we'll dive into the business
that you're working on right now,
and, try to figure out together
what, a next step could be like
where, wherever it's not working.
Uh, so, um, With that in mind, who is Leo?
Leo: Who is Leo?
that's such a great question.
so this is actually something
that I've been trying to figure
out for quite a while now.
there was certainly a period of time when
I described myself like as a software
engineer, like tech guy, like that.
That was my, yeah, it was my job,
but also like really enjoyed it.
And then, during the pandemic, I
realized that I wanted, more than that.
and I wasn't quite sure exactly
where I wanted to go and that's
when I started exploring like the
life of a content creator, started
writing online, things like that.
and.
One of the things I realized that I really
wanted to do was to launch a startup.
I had always worked at big companies
and, you, I just, there was so much
bureaucracy that I had to fight through.
I tried to get something started at the
company I was with, eventually got a
meeting with a vp and they're like, yeah,
we don't actually do anything like that.
he goes, but let me tell you something.
He goes, I come from a startup background,
if you really think you have something,
like you should just go for it.
and so I really quit my job the next
day and I was like, I'm gonna go for it.
Eli: quit your job the next day.
Oh wow.
Leo: I really did feel like
I had something at the time.
and that was about the time that
I also realized that I had no idea
how to actually build a startup.
Eli: It's a little more
than building code.
Leo: No, that, that's it.
And I spent about the next seven
months or so trying to get a
startup off the ground and just, I
didn't really get anywhere with it.
I had the idea that like, oh,
to be a startup, like I've
just gotta go raise money.
that's what I saw everywhere.
everybody's talking about raising
money, this, and I'm like, if they
could do it, I can do it right.
no I couldn't, gave it a good shot.
TA talked to quite a few VCs,
did some pitch competitions.
had a found a co-founder that,
was not a good fit at all.
we didn't work well together.
cuz again, it was this idea that
I was like looking around and
saying oh, what do people say?
They're like, oh, you need a co-founder?
And I'm like, great.
Hey, you wanna be my co-founder?
let's do
Eli: Let's go.
Leo: yeah, again, not a great approach.
But, yeah, after about seven months or
so, I realized that it wasn't working
and so I ended up like shutting that
down and taking a step back, and
trying to figure out, what I wanted
to do, with my life at that point.
and, not too long after that, I
actually, ended up getting an interview
with a company called Copy ai.
And the funny thing about copy ai is copy
AI was the startup I was following and
going oh, look at what they're doing.
I could totally do that.
they're making it look easy, like I'm
following their journey on Twitter.
and so I ended up getting a job there,
a as like engineer number four, and
I've been there since 2021 now a and
so a bit, but the nice thing is I'm
actually able to, learn what it takes
to build a startup from an actual,
inside of a successful startup.
and,
Eli: is not what it looks like.
Leo: it's a lot different
than what from the outside.
but, the other thing is that
they're really great about
letting employees explore, like
outside of just their daily work.
Inside projects are totally, pretty
much encouraged really because,
there's this idea that entrepreneurship
I is, a great quality to have.
And so we filter for, people who have
that, even if they're not, building
out necessarily a startup of their
own or raising money or whatever.
But we want people who explore that.
And Yeah.
So that brings us, to today.
And, again, I'm still exploring the whole,
who am I question, but, like I've got a
podcast, called How to Scale Yourself.
I also just started a YouTube channel.
I write various places on the internet,
a couple of blogs and things like that.
and then I've just been building a
whole bunch, of different things,
culminating in my, current product,
which really, it goes back to the very
initial idea I had with everything.
And so it's called Choose Your Algorithm.
and the idea is to really give people
ownership over their internet experience.
And so right now I'm starting to
build out the capabilities for people
to build their own search engines.
Eli: For their own personal use.
idea?
Leo: really the idea is more
of a shareable search engine.
And so what you can do is you
can actually share this out.
So my hypothesis that I'm working
from is that with the rise of all
of these AI tools and everything
that can, write, search, optimized
content much better, it comes down
to really what sources you trust.
And I think people are actually a great,
place to go for that level of trust.
And so if you figure out like who's
got the right filters in place, so
you shrink the internet down to like
just the content you care about.
And then you can actually, do
some pretty neat composite things.
But from the marketing standpoint, one
of the things that I just realized is
They're, again, it's a hypothesis, but, I
believe that agency owners are actually,
potentially a really good market to start
in, because if I give them, the ability
to create this, Link that they can share
with prospective clients that says Hey,
like here's a search engine you can use
that will tell you about various trends
in this, service that I'm offering.
and, include portfolio
projects, things like that.
and, you can also use that to
get a lot of really good feedback
from how people are using it.
And so it's a, right now it's packaged
up as like a search engine like
chatbot combo because I want to com
like combine that context and so what
they're looking for and then figuring
out how they're clarifying that.
I feel like that's really useful
data for the agency owner.
now all of that has to be validated,
but, that, that's where it sit so far.
Eli: that's the, that's the correct.
So it sounds like, like middle of
the road between curated content,
like a newsletter that just picks and
someone picks and chooses bits of,
information and feeds, feeds it to you.
And the more open-ended, realm of a
search engine or something like Chan
G p t, where it's completely open.
it reminds me of this idea.
there's this idea in open democracy where,
or flat democracy where you don't actually
have representatives that you choose.
You just say, I trust this guy to
vote in my stead on these topics.
And then this guy says,
I trust this other guy.
And you have an hierarchy of people
trusting other people across topics and,
Leo: Exactly.
Eli: And this, and that's I trust
you, Leo, in the space of whatever, I
dunno, JavaScript frameworks, whatever.
and I get your search engine or your kind
of curated search engine on that topic.
And when I search on that
topic, I get information from
sources that you've curated.
So I don't get random bits,
interspersed with ads.
I get something cleaner that a person
potentially with an interest, maybe with
even a, some skin in the game getting
paid for it a little bit, has curated.
And that gives a completely different,
search engine or completely different
experience of interacting with the web.
Is that do, am I understanding
what, where you're going with this?
Leo: Yeah, absolutely.
And I think the, comparison to
newsletters I think is quite apt.
because one of the biggest issues with
newsletters I see right now is people
are recognizing that this is like a
great way to, build up an audience
and build trust with an audience.
But the result is that everybody has
a newsletter and everybody's just
like bombarding your email inbox.
and so it, it's this
and then, all the email
Eli: like we ha we had a problem.
Leo: more.
Eli: had a problem.
That we have a solution
now we have two problems.
Leo: Exactly.
Eli: have two new problems.
Leo: Yeah.
And I, I think the idea is good because,
with an email list, you own that audience,
which I think is incredibly important.
but really it's about,
building up that trust.
And I think if you could show that
you've put in the work to source,
information on various topics, I
think that's enough to build up trust.
I don't think you need to,
constantly be in their inbox to
make sure that you're top of mind.
And I think that, we all need to
back up a little and think about,
is this actually like how we
wanna interact with each other?
Cause I think a lot of it's just
like everybody's focusing on okay,
how can I make my metrics go up
and so I'm gonna do this, and this.
but the problem is when everybody
does that, like what happens
to the user on the other end?
And it's I'm just overwhelmed now.
I've got, 50 emails.
Cause everybody's trying to like, stay
top of mind and then nobody's top of mind.
So it really, it's like
Eli: everyone's fighting.
Everyone's fighting for that
little bit of attention.
Leo: exactly.
Eli: I wanna go back to your project and
how it looks from the perspective of.
not a project, but from a
perspective of a business, right?
from like the marketing, the, where's
the money coming from and so on.
And the first thing I'm noticing
is that this has some of the
mechanics of a marketplace, right?
There are providers of search engines
or curators or whatever you want
to call that, that define areas of
expertise in certain places on the
web where you would find these things.
and then you have people who
would use these things, right?
one really important thing
to note, about a marketplace
is that it's devilishly hard.
if you take, if you build a SaaS that
serves a certain group of people, that's
That's playing the game on hard mode.
that's like the basic hard mode
because you still, you need to figure
out the product, the marketing,
the sales, the pricing, the whole
thing, the product market fit.
the failure rate is
pretty high in that space.
If you take it to a marketplace of
any sort, any situation where you
have two sides, then that becomes like
ultra hard mode or excruciating mode
because now you, not only do you need
to have product market fit on both
sides, you also need to have it at
the same time, in the same location.
And you need to have a critical
mass of both sides because in, in
your case, you have enough of these.
Custom special search engines so
that people, when they come to
look at what's possible, there's a
list and it's valid and it's, it's
interesting and it's significant.
And on the other hand, you need people
to come in order for the curators
to be interested enough, right?
Because if there's no audience, why
would anybody put their time into
building a curated search engine?
and we're not even talking about
money on others either side.
Like even just get the behavior
of usage and creation on
both sides is, is difficult.
So my question to you is, have
you thought about this catch
Leo: it's funny that you say that,
I'm literally working on a blog
post, that I started over the weekend
called The Marketplace of Attention.
because that's how I view it, right?
because we've got everybody
fighting for attention.
And there's this idea that
I've had of, We're moving into.
What I like to think of, like it's
the transition from the creator
economy into the expert economy.
and so I think what this does is it really
allows experts to prove their knowledge,
in a way that like, is shareable.
And so when I was thinking about
this as a marketplace problem,
that's actually why I settled on,
agencies as a great way to start.
Because, from that standpoint, I
can work pretty closely with, a few
agencies especially to get started.
and say okay, here's what we can do with
it and we can, build out a portfolio.
We can build out some, resources
around the trends because.
the way that the agency model really
works out well is, the, these agency
owners are experts in the trends.
And, so when you're talking about
like a social media agency, they're
understanding social media and they're
able to keep up with all of those trends.
But if you look on the broad
marketplace that is the internet,
you go to Google, it's okay, how
are these rankings getting, set?
are they, is this agency, just
paying for ads or whatever?
do they have, paid affiliate agreements
with people writing blog posts
about, ranking various agencies like
it, it's all very hidden, right?
and I think that's really where it comes
in to be able to prove your expertise.
And so as an agency owner, if I can
present them with a link that they can,
share with people, it's like I'm not
trying to build the marketplace of like
buyers and sellers in the marketplace.
I'm like, I'm giving it to the seller
who's already searching for buyers.
And so my goal is to
help them convert better.
a and so that's where I think
the real advantage to y seeding
the marketplace will be.
Because then, I can also build on that,
like as I get, agencies participating and
trying it out and doing all of that's also
building up the overall kind of search
space that then it becomes interesting to
potentially like outside users as well.
and so that's,
Eli: it's going to be on, On the
agency to bring in users to their,
it's based on their, existing audience.
Leo: And they're already going
out and searching for 'em, right?
and so that's the thing.
They're already trying to find people.
and so from that benefit, it's,
they're already talking to people.
But then I think the added piece
that I think is gonna be key is
that, that feedback mechanism.
So as they hand out this link and
people are searching and chatting
with that information by, giving that
data back to the agency, it's oh,
you're, here's your perspective client
and here's what they're looking for.
and so now you have this feedback,
it's like a feedback loop.
And so it's, it's essentially what
Google does, except everything goes
through Google and then you have to parse
that out from the other data, right?
And in this, there's at least
this feedback mechanism that it's
like both sides are, understanding
Hey, here's what you're doing.
And I think being more transparent with
that is it's a great way, and as a content
creator, I think that's incredibly handy
too, cuz if I know that my audience is
looking for things, then it's like I
know what content I can create, right?
and so with my YouTube channel, like
I'm creating content about building
things with different AI libraries and
it's oh, people are looking for this.
I use that.
I can go ahead and create a video on that.
And then it's it's a really
positive feedback loop I think.
and it's similar to what already exists.
It's just more direct and it's taking out
the middle man that is Google or even like
social media in various aspects, right?
Eli: Yeah.
So y in, in a marketplace there's usually
a hard side and an easy side, or typically
a hard side and an almost impossible side.
and
I'm not convinced that the hard side
of this particular marketplace is the
side that supplies the search engines.
I am, we'll dive into both, but I am
curious to see what are the incentives
of people, consumers basically
to use a curated search engine.
and the reason I'm concerned about this,
Is that even when information gets shoved
down people's throats, they resist it.
Like we just start, we started this
conversation with, people just have their
inboxes overflowing with information.
and there are lots of choices today
to go in and find information.
And
I'm thinking of something like
even like Wikipedia and Stack
Overflow, like huge sites with
lots of content, very specialized.
And still, I don't think that
going on either of those sites
and searching for your answers
there is the typical behavior.
I think the typical behavior
is something question and Stack
Overflow or Reddit or Wiki, right?
To get the answer.
So I think there's, there's
a lot of ingrained behavior,
in the consumer space that.
The shift of going to a specific
link in order to search for a
particular type of information.
This is this was fairly common in,
I don't know, 97 or 98, when the
internet was really fragmented and
you would use multiple search engines
and you would go to specific sites to
find specific, bits of information.
But because of the prevalence of
Google, in the last, what, 20 years,
everything coalesced around Google.
Maybe for some people around bing,
like half a percent, but in general,
like a single main search engine.
so I'm wondering what it's just, it's a
deep change in behavior and a deep change
in behavior requires usually a very, it
need, it requires a more than a benefit.
It requires.
Like a burning, unsolvable problem that
just can't be solved in any other way.
Leo: and so the thing is I think that
we're going to have that, and the reason
for that is again, it goes back to this
idea that ais can produce, search engine
optimized content way faster than.
people even realize at this
point, and I've seen it firsthand.
And so what people are going to realize,
and they've already started to realize
this to some extent, but, there's less
and less trust in Google search results.
And so you see people using things
like TikTok as a search engine, YouTube
is a search engine and all of that.
And so they are already exploring
various options, based on, a lot
of times either their favorite
platforms or, their favorite kind
of creators within those platforms.
I think to some extent, maybe not as
much, as I think we'll see, but in
terms of changing the behavior, that's
actually why, I decided to start with
this idea that, I assume with the
agencies, it's like they're incentivized
to try to get people to engage in
this behavior and then their clients,
Again, an assumption, is looking for
someone to help solve this problem.
They're, it's a problem that they have.
And so if, if they want information about
that problem, they're likely to use it.
and so as I've looked around, what
agency owners do, a lot of times
they will create a bunch of content.
maybe they'll have different,
smaller products so that people
could buy if they wanted.
so they've already done a lot of
this work of curating sources,
creating content about the problem,
because they want people to be
able to find that content, right?
And so in this way, it's it allows
them to package up all of that into
a single box and then just hand it
off to the user who's trying to solve
this problem, ideally, and say yeah,
I know the internet's big, right?
But here it all is here's
everything you need to know.
Search through it, chat with it.
and then, if you're interested moving
forward, like I'm happy to help.
and so it's like a, it's a more
advanced lead magnet, right?
Instead of a PDF checklist that you
can download then never look at, and
I say this because I do that all the
time, it's oh yeah, that sounds cool.
And then it's like I
download it and I'm on an
Eli: we even pay for a
PDF checklist, right?
It's oh, this is a neat thing.
I'll pay $10 for, and you
never look at it again.
Leo: E exactly.
a and it's because it's just a, it's
this static document and I think
we're getting to a place where, the
internet is changing so rapidly.
It's anything static just
gets left behind very quickly.
and so with these, a, as you develop
links as well, the nice thing is like
they can continue to grow as you add
information into this search space.
The person with the link doesn't have
to change anything on their end, and
so it's like free updates on their
end by just giving 'em this link.
but then ultimately I think the change
in behavior is when people like start to
use these from various sources and then
can actually just combine all of these
different search engines that people have
created on various things into a single
Eli: me in a me meta search engine.
Yeah.
Leo: and so it's their own personal
search engine that, goes out to all of
these different, trusted search engines
based on, whatever they've decided.
and so this ability to just, use all
these different building blocks to create
that internet experience that you want,
I, I think is gonna be, really key to
getting people to change that behavior.
But, yeah, that, that's far enough
away that it's we'll see how all
that goes, but that's the game plan
for, the next five, 10 years or so.
Eli: Yeah.
have you talked to agencies?
do you have any feedback from agencies?
in the wild,
Leo: not as of yet.
I'm working on that right now.
This is, this was literally just a
revelation that came to me yesterday.
And so this is very new.
cuz I, I've talked to, users from
like a few different areas cuz I see
creators essentially already building
this stuff up, in like notion databases
or whatever, and they use that kind
of as the basis for their content.
but I don't think they're
necessarily as willing to like,
pay for something like that.
it's like I've already got what I need.
I don't think it's a big enough shift
for them to like, add in another layer
of something that they have to learn.
They see how the creative
landscape is and they're just
going to stick with that for now.
I am actually gonna do a pilot with a,
realtor who's it's more of the like, End
user of the agency, I think at this point.
But, they are, it's a new realty agency
and they've got multiple blogs, around,
like one is like dog friendly parks in
the area and they take their dog around to
these different parks and check 'em out.
And then that's part of
their content strategy.
and then they've got one where, it's
a family who owns this really company.
And so like they go out to dinner at
different restaurants and review it.
And so they've got the Yelp
aspect and then they've got some
home buying tips or whatever.
And so I'm gonna be working with them
to build out the, this, customized
solution that can, hopefully help.
as people are searching for
information, it's oh, hey,
you're interested, here's a link.
And as they're looking at properties
potentially Oh, in this area, here's a
blog I wrote about restaurants in the
area, your dog friendly parks, once you've
figured out if they have a dog or not.
and so that's gonna be an exploration
around the idea of taking that like search
context and chat context potentially,
and like using that to help qualify
leads and build up that relationship.
so that when the person like does
actually contact, the realtor directly,
it, there, there's more trust between
the two parties because it's oh,
yeah, we see what you're doing here.
They, we really focus on kind
of the human element of that.
And it's taking what they're doing like
with the dogs and the restaurants and
everything and combining that with the
actual kind of like sales experience.
but agencies, I'm still, I'm
planning on reaching out to a
few here in the next day or two.
I'm building something I can use to
just, Easily, put together a sample
like based on what their agency does.
and so I can do that and then show 'em a
link and Hey, this is what I'm building.
I'd love for you to check it out, a short
explanation and like, you know, try it.
Let me know what you think.
Eli: Um, so I wanted to reflect
on your realtor project actually,
Leo: yeah.
Eli: because that seems to have, a very
specific well understood use case and
reason because the agencies you're talking
about, you're talking about social media
agencies, you're talking about there are
lots of different agencies, marketing
agencies, and that seems to be, for lack
of a better word, vague at this point.
it's a hypothesis and even as a
hypothesis, it's Kind of vague, but
what you're, telling about the realtor
project, even though it's like it's a
customized project for one shop, it's
like the, their own thing and it's
an extension of what they already do.
The reasons just for me as an outsider
listening from the outside, that makes
a lot more sense because as a potential
client of the realtor is exploring their
website and is looking at properties,
the ability to get a broader context of
what that property is and where it is
and what kind of things are around it.
and even have, a chat conversation
where you can ask things that are
not immediately obvious cuz there's
no way to present all the possible
things that people might be interested
in on a single screen while they're
looking at a piece of property.
But, but a chat embedded there where
you could, with some, starting examples,
that sounds to me like, I don't know if
it's useful for the people who are using,
who are looking for real estate as much,
but I think it's a compelling thing to
offer to realtors because, and one of
the reasons is that, our world, the dev
world, indie hacker world, the Twitter
world is a blaze with all these Che G p
T clones for, all those different uses.
But honestly, realtors are usually
like five to seven years behind
on, on, technology adoption.
And it's a very interesting
niche to take that tech into.
Leo: And that is something
that, it wasn't quite expected.
And so it, it was funny
I was going through this,
Eli: best things never are.
Leo: and that, that's how it worked out.
I was doing, this program,
called the Customer learning Lab.
And the whole idea is, it's early
stage companies who learn about,
surveying users and like interviewing
people and things like that.
and actually somebody in the program,
I was chatting with, like about his
product and he is Hey, I, yeah, I've
got this woman who's I don't know,
And again, this comes down to the fact
that I'm still not great at concisely
explaining what it is I'm offering.
It's like I, it's this, I, I see
the potential for it, but, getting
people to understand it enough to
actually try it out is a challenge.
But he's so he's but I, I've
got this woman that I, yeah, I
think she'd be willing to chat.
Like she's starting a realty
company and I know that they've
got like a content strategy.
I'd love to make that introduction.
And so that's actually
where that came from.
And so I started chatting with her about
the ideas of, You know how to integrate
that in because one of the things
that I found really fascinating about
this whole thing is that most realty
companies die within the first two years.
And the reason for that is because
the vast majority o of property sales
come through established networks.
And so if you can't build up enough
of a network of people that you've
sold to in that first two years,
you don't have enough to actually
sustain the company beyond that.
And so it leads to the, this falloff.
And I thought that was like, for
me, that is a very fascinating, Case
study for it, because one of the
things that I really wanna focus in
on is how do you build trust online?
And I think like with social media,
and Google, it's like they, they
tend to be, they teach us to trust
things like less and less, right?
as people are like paying for spots.
And then it's like you start
to like really see how the
sausage was made, if you will.
and it's ev it's all these
like paid agreements.
Then it's how do I trust
any of these results now?
and so I think figuring out the, this
trust model and looking at it from
the standpoint of like how trust is
established, like within social networks,
meaning connections between people,
not, like social networking platforms,
I think is really intriguing to me.
I'm curious to see how this goes
and I don't, yeah, I don't know.
How much it's going to actually
be used, how useful it's going
to be if they're actually going
to care about the data they get.
but I think, doing that from the
standpoint of at least, I could see how
this data can be useful so I can, analyze
the data for them essentially and say Hey,
like here's what I'm seeing in the data.
but it's a matter of getting
them to use it and getting them,
getting other people to use it.
and
Eli: I'm, just listening to you.
I'm noticing, I've been a
developer for 25 years too, right?
we developers tend to do this
really interesting thing where we
climb A ladder of, abstractions.
And we do it really quickly
because as engineers we are trained
and we train others to think in
abstract terms, in generic terms,
in things that are reusable, in
things that have multiple uses.
And you can use this thing
in all these different ways.
And we are used to
talking in abstractions.
We are used to think in
meta and and in meta.
that's the way we, that's the way
the best software is built, right?
That's how good code is.
The problem with this is that
it's the absolute opposite of
how good businesses are built.
Leo: right.
Eli: Because most of the population,
they don't care about abstractions.
They don't care about the
underlying philosophy.
They don't care about how
these things could be reused
in all these different ways.
They care about specific, particular
use case that either resolves their
pain or gives them an answer to their
desire or solves a problem or something
like that in a very specific way.
And what I see across the board, and dude,
it's true for me as much as it is true
for you, is that we come up with these
generic solutions and then we find it
really hard to explain to everyday people.
And the best example from the
last few years is, crypto.
or as we, the tech people
call it, blockchain.
Now, when you think about how typically
blockchain, blockchain is explained, it's
explained from the bottom up, you see
there these hashes that connect these
blocks and it's a distributed thing
and it, and and it's an IMU immutable
ledger of records, like by the time
you get to where and how it could be
useful, even in like in articles and
books, it becomes extremely vague.
And the reason it's vague is because as
engineers we see a sea of possibility,
and that's enough, because we also
trust ourselves that well, given a
specific problem, we can use this meta
abstract layer to figure out a particular
solution to this particular problem.
But we don't want to limit our discussion
in our thinking to a particular problem.
And in terms of marketing, in terms
of business, in terms of sales,
that's a really bad idea cuz people
like in general don't get it.
They don't understand what we're
talking about when what we see in our
minds eye is the sea of possibility.
So as I'm listening to you talking
about the customizable, search engines,
the ability of different actors to
create their own search engines, the
ability of different consumers to,
to use different search engines, to
find different bits of information.
Those are all abstract terms now.
And you also go one level higher, like
whether than a person can combine multiple
search engines from different providers to
create their own personal search engine.
And because I'm a techie, I totally
understand what you're saying and I
know what possibilities this opens, up.
But I also, because I'm also writing
the other side, I'm like, there's no
way in hell you can sell this because
Leo: That, that's just it.
And that's why I've really
stopped myself from doing a lot
of the building until I start
Eli: until you figure out Exactly.
and when you started talking about,
the realtor project, which is
It's like a 10th of a percent of
the whole vision that you have.
But it's specific, it's easy to explain,
and the hypothesis is something you
can discuss with actual realtors.
The hypothesis here is if we add an
AI chat to your, real estate listings,
will people come back to your website
more often as the source of truth and
the source of the best information for
real estate in your particular area?
Is that going to help?
And based on their own perception
of technology and kind of their
sense, they may say yes or no.
And it doesn't even matter
if it is actually going to,
Help people stay or not.
Because from a business perspective, since
you're selling a service to a realtor, the
only thing you need is their perception
of whether it's going to help or not.
Later on, you will have some statistic
in your case say, you know what?
I actually have numbers.
people spend 47 more percent more minutes
on the website if there is a thing there.
And but early on you're looking
for early adopters, right?
You're looking for people who are in the
real estate business, but who have heard
about Chad g p t and started wondering,
wait a second, how can this help me?
And then you come around, it's
this is how this can help you.
I figure it out a way where this can help.
Now, the benefit of this is that when
you have a really narrow hypothesis like
that, it takes three conversations, maybe
five conversations to invalidate it.
you have five conversations.
No one's no one's telling
you, take my money.
Then there's nothing there.
It's not that, right?
You need a different hypothesis.
But within those five conversations,
you either find, you usually
find something kind of adjacent.
It's this is not going to work.
But this other thing, which is three
degrees to the left, is actually might
work and might be worth a lot of money.
for example, realtor, like big realtor,
organizations might have, a problem
with just responding to people like
lots and lots and lots of questions,
very few sales, and they just
don't wanna answer these questions.
You put a chat bot, a good effective
chat bot, on their website.
It just saves them a lot of time
and a lot of, maybe even a lot
of money, for these responses.
I don't know if it's a problem,
but it's a different hypothesis.
it's a few degrees to the left,
of our original hypothesis
and it deserves its own.
Its own testing.
The core thing here though, is that
the big magical, world-changing
philosophy, shattering idea of
personalized, search engines is probably
not something you need to be talking
about to people who are not techies.
you explained this to me.
I'm like, Cleo, this is freaking awesome.
This is beautiful.
also, there's no way in hell you
could build it by yourself, right?
This is this is taking on Google.
It's going to be a big thing.
it's going to require resources,
people, it's not a solo project
and it's not going to pay your
bills in the foreseeable future.
But when you, out of this
beautiful big picture, you
find a tiny slice of something.
With a, with actual people, actual
customers with, money to spend
and it resonates, then it's I like
the metaphor of starting a fire.
if you put a bunch of wood and you
use a blow dryer on the wood, you're
not going to be able to start a fire.
Even though you're putting a lot of
energy in it, it's just not going to work.
You need a little bit of tinder and
you need the heat concentrated on a
match, and then you can light it up.
It's a tiny little thing, and
then you add things to it.
So that's the very narrow niche
hypothesis for example, a chat bot on
a real estate website that could start
that fire and later on could expand to
this, the whole vision of curated search
engines that you're talking about.
does that make any sense to you?
Leo: Yeah.
Yeah.
it totally does.
and that's, yeah, that, that's what I've
been working and exploring, a bit, still
trying to narrow it down a bit more.
But I like the idea of focusing in even
on just that like specific use case.
and once I have that, in place
extending it to the other conversations.
Cause I think, the idea of the three
to five conversations to, validate
or invalidate the hypothesis, I
think is definitely helpful there.
Eli: Yeah.
Yeah.
and, and the obvious two next
steps here is one, follow through
with that real estate, company and
actually build something with them.
Ideally get paid for it too.
because, it's funny, we talk about
validation and invalidation a lot in
our circles, but there's no validation
until we have money in, in, in your hand.
Everything else is just, is just kindness.
Leo: that's the hard part, right?
that's the, that's really where
it, where it comes in and that
this is something that, that I've,
played with and various products.
And I've shut a couple down because, like
I was able to get people using them, but
like nobody wanted to like, pay for 'em.
And then, I did eventually get one
product that made, I don't know,
I think it made like 150 bucks
or something, which was good.
I was like, alright.
I was able to take a
problem and narrow it down.
And then, Twitter, screwed me over
when they, did their whole p I change
and I was like, all that's going away.
Eli: But, it's a valuable, it's a
valuable lesson because there is a
profound difference between someone
who built things that people used for
free and someone who built things, that
someone was actually willing to pay for.
There's, it's like, it's a
completely different experience.
And then you've, and then what we
typically learn is that the people who
are using stuff for free are just not the
same people who are paying for things.
It's not just about the product.
It's not like your product is
good enough or not good enough.
It's about, it's about the people.
And there's, again, there's
this common idea that selling to
consumers is excruciatingly hard.
And selling to businesses is a lot easier.
And the reason for that is that businesses
are like, Run businesses are typically
okay with the concept of investment, which
means they're happy to pay for things
that will create ROI in the future, right?
You spend money to make money.
Basically, this idea of spending
money to make, in order to make
money is very typical in business.
It does not exist with consumers
who are either employees, who cannot
make more money by spending money.
They just can't.
They have absolutely no influence
on how much money they make.
It's part of the reason we're all
trying to become entrepreneurs, right?
because to have that influence.
But if you're an employee you don't
like, maybe you get a raise, right?
Maybe you get a bonus.
You have very little influence on either.
and definitely spend money
is not going to help you.
So the basic consumer.
state of mind is I'm going to spend
money on things I want if I have money.
And when that kind of employee
becomes an early stage entrepreneur or
creator, the mindset remains, right?
Like I talk to, I do like
marketing, consulting, and
I talk to many freelancers.
It's what you're offering,
and I offered courses and, and
coaching and stuff like that.
and 95% of the time, what I hear from,
entrepreneurs, like starting entrepreneurs
is my, my project is not making enough
money for me to justify paying you.
And I'm like, this is, dude,
this is not how it works, right?
this is not how it works.
You don't first succeed with your product.
And then, get a coach to
succeed with your product.
Unfortunately, that's not how it works.
You always need to take that leap.
So that's, there's a profound difference
between selling to businesses who already
get that or people who are see themselves
as a business versus people who don't.
And that's the reason why it's
so hard to get paid for things
we build because we are all the
indie hackers this entire world.
We are all consumers in our minds as well.
And we build things for consumers because
we build things for people like us.
And when we build things
for people like us, we.
Typically don't notice the fact
that we are really stingy ourselves.
We're not happy to pay for products,
even if it's 10 or $15 a month,
which is not a crazy amount,
but maybe I can do it myself.
Maybe I can set up some, some open
source on some server somewhere.
Maybe I'll hack around it,
do a little bit of diy.
Why should I pay someone
else to do this for me?
And that's a really big transition we'll
need to go through is instead of selling
to people like us, we need to be selling
to people, like the people we want to be.
And then it becomes a lot easier.
Leo: Yeah, I've definitely found
that, in my own experience, and
there have been times when it's
oh, I'll just build that myself.
that's probably better than, Spending
20 bucks a month on it, and then it's
okay, there's six weeks down that I
could have been actually like building
a, something, creating value for
somebody that I, instead I'm doing this.
So it, it is funny how much
of a transition that is.
and I've definitely gotten to the
point now where I'm putting money
in to, to try to get things started.
And it's like figuring out how
to actually capitalize on that,
investment, is the next step for me
because, yeah, it's okay, now it's
I've got things going a little bit.
I've got an idea of where things sit.
and I've done this enough.
And so now it's okay, gotta again, get
back away from the building a bit and like
actually, go out and sell it to people.
And it's there, there's enough here that
you should be able to like, sell it.
it's just a matter of going
out and doing that, which is
Eli: Exactly.
it's becoming A trend in these
conversations that I'm having where
the most important advice I can
give to people is Stop building.
Just stop building, because building
is not going to get you anywhere.
That's the first thing.
The second thing is you already
know how to build, right?
It's not a question of whether
you can build it, it's just
a question of hours put in.
There's a very linear progression from
knowing what you need to build over all
the way out to its built and released.
Most of the people, like you and me,
experienced software developers can
build anything, within a certain realm.
But it's not a, it's not a question.
Finding something worth building, selling
it, getting paid, marketing, scaling,
all these things are completely unknown.
So 99% of the time we're building.
As a form of procrastination
because everything else is unknown,
but we do know how to build.
So we're like, if I build it
and it's beautiful, then when
I show it, they will buy it.
But that's not how it works.
Leo: So it helps it when
you actually show it.
And a lot of times, and I'm speaking
totally for myself here, it's like
I'll just build it and then never
actually put it in front of people.
it's like I talk about it and I expect
people to go play with it themselves,
but it's that's like I need to sit
down and be like, use this while I'm
watching so I can see what you're doing.
Let me know if it,
Eli: and even that, I would argue
that you don't need to show anything
at the early stage you're at.
You don't need to show anything.
Because once you show something, the
conversation is about what you've
built and when the conversation
is about what you've built, it
stops being about what they need.
And when it stops being about
what they need you, you'll never
figure out what they would pay for.
The only thing you would hear when you
talk, when you show someone something,
the only thing you would hear are
feature requests that are not even real.
It's people trying to be kind and
brainstorming with you what could
like pulling from other sources
and other apps they've seen.
What could be useful to other people
within the context of what you've built,
but you miss out on the most important
thing you actually are interested in.
Would you pay 50 bucks a month for this?
This is the actual question.
And would you pay 50 bucks a month
for this is never about the solution.
It's always about the problem.
So as developers, we spend so
much time in the solution space
that we don't even notice.
We skip the problem cuz
you know, that's our job.
You see a problem, boom, there's
a solution, you see another
problem, boom, there's a solution.
And if there's no solution,
it's tech overflow.
And now there's a solution or chat,
G p D, and now there's a solution.
We just, we don't spend time in
the problem space because we're not
interested in, but transitioning to
entrepreneurs, spending time in the
problem space is what we need to do.
So when I say stop building, I also
mean don't go into these conversations
with a URL to show something.
Go into these conversations with some
pretax, I'm exploring how to, improve the
real estate market or I've been looking
for a house and I encountered this and
this problem, and I'm talking to realtors
to see if this is a common enough problem.
To build a business to fix, right?
You go into these conversations with
a completely different excuse versus
I built something I wanna show you.
And then when you go into a
conversation with this mindset and
excuse of exploring the problem,
then you have other conversations.
you may have a conversation about
their business, about their life,
about their kids, about whatever.
And you have, you have your
solution ears perking up.
Like where are problems
that require solving?
and then you get these serendipitous
things where wait a second, I never
considered realtors to be a potential
target market for this thing.
It's maybe there's something there.
And then when you hone in on a problem
that's worth solving, And these
people that you're talking to are
saying, yes, this is a big problem.
Yes, this is worth money.
Yes, I'm spending $5,000 a month on this.
Of course, I'll pay $50 to solve it.
and you have, like we said, like three
to five conversations and you hear
the same thing over and over again.
Then you can even close a presale.
You can say, you know what?
I'm going to build this, but in order
for me to be convinced that it's
worth building, I would like for
you to have some skin in the game.
How about you pay me
for three months, right?
50 bucks times three, $150.
You put $150 down.
I'm going to collect this from five
people, not because I need the money,
because I want to be convinced what
I'm building is actually necessary,
and then I'll build it and you'll
have the chance to participate.
And guide the building.
So it really, you basically get a custom
development project for the cost of
whatever, a nice meal at a restaurant.
And that's validation.
That's actual, real, you're solving a
problem that exists not only in your
mind, but in someone else's mind who has
the money and the desire to pay for it.
Leo: I like that a lot.
Eli: It's different, right?
It's not like
it's.
Leo: and that's.
and it is funny cuz like for the, the
interview with the realtor, that, that
was essentially how that was approached.
And I didn't do any product demos.
It was really about, understanding
like how she was approaching like her
content strategy and how they were
trying to be discovered online and that
online aspect of the business, right?
and so that was, really how that came out.
And then it's oh, here's what I'm doing.
And it's oh yeah, actually, like
that does align really well.
I think with, how that's set up.
And so that's, that, that's a good point.
That because again, like going
back to the, like the mindset, it's
oh, great, like I got just enough.
Like now I build something and then show
people like, no, like you don't, you
Eli: Stop.
Leo: stop building.
Yeah, no, that, that is, yeah.
It is funny how like our, yeah.
Slamming the idea of building into
our brains for so long, it's really
hard to get out of that mindset and
even when you think you get out of
it, it's like you go right back to it.
Like first opportunity.
It's like, all right, time to build.
I'm like, Nope, nope.
Back up.
Eli: Exactly.
Exactly.
And that changes everything because then
instead of being a developer who is trying
to become an entrepreneur, you become
an entrepreneur with development skills.
And personally, I found out that
for me to make the transition, I
needed to make the decision that
I'm not going to code at all ever.
If I'm going to build a software product,
I'm going to need to find a way for
someone else to code it, either as a
partnership or, get some funding and have
some and pay for someone to build it.
Because once I start building,
I lose that perspective.
And I've been doing marketing
and sales and consulting in
that space for three years.
So I'm I think that I've made
the transition fully, but when I
fire up the id, I'm right where,
right back where I started.
I'm imagining features.
I'm thinking in abstraction.
I'm like, oh, this is going to
be useful for this and this is
going to be useful for that.
It's so awesome.
I'm just going to build a little more,
and now I'm going to show it to people.
It's just so easy to fall back
into that, into that mindset,
and so hard to stay above it.
I'm like, I'm a business, right?
It's like I'm not a coder.
There's lots of stuff going
on in the business, and most
of them are conversations.
The work is talking.
Leo: That's the truth.
Eli Intro: Thanks for listening.
If you want to be a guest on the
show and talk through the problems
you're facing with your business.
You can send me a message on Twitter
@finereli, my DMS are always open.
And if you're ready for some
deeper work, I can actually help
you find product market fit for
whatever it is you're building.
You can find details about how this
works, how much it costs and what I can
promise you on my website at growthlab.so.
See you next time.