Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
This podcast is for and about soldiers of the Canadian Army.
Its primary goal is to provide them with useful information through thoughtful and open discussions that reflect their mutual interests and concerns.
Though soldiers are our primary audience, the topics covered on this podcast should be relevant to anyone who supports our soldiers or who has an interest in Canadian military matters.
[ Music starts ]
Captain Adam Orton: Hi, I’m Captain Adam Orton with the Canadian Army Podcast. The battlefield can be a chaotic place. You’ve got tanks, artillery, aircraft, things exploding everywhere. The JTACs, AKA Joint Terminal Attack Controller, can have a pretty big influence on bringing a little bit of order to the chaos. We have here Warrant Officer Jace Avery, who is with us in Petawawa, because we’re on the road, from the 2nd Regiment of the Royal Canadian Horse Artillery, and he’s a JTAC, so he can explain to us how everything works. Welcome to the podcast!
Warrant Officer Jace Avery: Thanks for having me.
[ Music ends ]
Capt Orton: So, let’s start with this, because I’ve had a lot of discussions on this when prepping for the podcast. What does a JTAC do?
WO Avery : So, simply put, we communicate the ground force commander’s intent to the aircraft, and we make kinetic effects on the battlefield to support their manoeuvre.
Capt Orton: So basically guiding bombs onto enemy positions.
WO Avery: Yeah, that’s basically it. So, we communicate to the aircraft, like, target location, we correlate the aircraft on the target, and brief the ground force commander for approval. We tell them, you know, hey, we got this CF-18 on station. We’re going to employ a 500-pound laser-guided weapon. We’re going to attack east to west. There’ll be no effects on friendlies. Do I have your permission? And the ground force commander does a little estimate, but yep, checks for me and approves. And then we provide terminal attack control, which is those magic words, you know, we clear them hot.
Capt Orton: Right.
WO Avery: And the aircraft comes in and drops a bomb and we assess the effects and provide reattack if required.
Capt Orton: So you’re kind of a subject matter expert that exists as a link between the commander and what they want and the, let’s call it delivery system, in this case, an aircraft. And so you act as that link because, let’s say, a pilot in a plane, they don’t necessarily know what’s going on and they need to have a better understanding of what that picture is. And you’re the person who feeds them in pilot language what that is. And in the same time, feeds to the commander in soldier language, what the airplane’s going to do.
WO Avery: Yeah, exactly. The Air Force, you know, and the Army, we’re the guy in the middle. So we basically translate the scheme manoeuvre to the aircraft so they can better support us. They know what we’re doing on the ground. And our biggest duty, you know, other than kinetic effects, is minimizing fratricide. That is where, you know, the origins of JTACs became important was, I think, in Vietnam. I think it was more when it became formalized more. They were just carpet bombing stuff, unguided weapons a lot of the time, and we were taking a lot of friendlies, casualties. So, somebody thought, hey, there’s got to be a better way. We need to have a person on the ground to communicate what’s going on, who has good situational awareness so we can try to make these strikes more efficient and minimize fratricide. So that’s basically our biggest duty is minimizing fratricide.
Capt Orton: It’s an interesting statement because, you know, this is the classic “fog of war” discussion, which is you have soldiers out there doing the business, whatever their thing is, and then you have command elements that are trying to move the chess pieces on the chessboard to try and do things. Especially, let’s say, in a joint environment where you’ve got aircraft and all sorts of different vehicles and explosives going off. There’s only so much information a human being can process. And so, from a commander’s perspective, is having a JTAC that just does that one bit, it allows to create, like, a little bit more, maybe, clarity in that space that, you know, allows you to have that safety factor.
WO Avery: Exactly, yeah. So that’s a key, we have to have accurate and timely information to do our job. So, you’re constantly pulling information from the GFC, ground force commander. And then you’re passing that timely updates along to the CAS aircraft. And also, another big thing that we do is we make the pilots feel comfortable to release that weapon.
Capt Orton: Right.
WO Avery: So you could imagine, you know, back in the day if it was a pilot talking to a random infantry person on the ground who’s screaming and yelling, who doesn’t really have any idea what’s going on. And the pilot’s, like, not going to be comfortable to drop. So we kind of have, like, established procedures, kind of a flow, a way information gets passed to the aircraft. And we give the pilots the confidence to ensure that his or her weapon is going on the intended target.
Capt Orton: For the listeners who might not know what it is, can you just define like what CAS is?
WO Avery: It’s close air support.
Capt Orton: It’s just airplanes dropping bombs.
WO Avery: It’s usually when hostile targets are in close proximity to friendly forces.
Capt Orton: Oh yeah, otherwise it’s just air support.
WO Avery: Yes.
Capt Orton: Let’s talk about blue on blue, you know, friendly fire for a second. Everybody’s running around, they’re in camouflage at various places. Sometimes it can be very difficult even within, let’s say, a 10 person section, to fully be aware where everybody is in the ground, let alone when you’re talking about larger formations with 40, 50, 100, 150 people. What tools do you have to help manage that?
WO Avery: So, it’s having good SA, situational awareness. So, you have to be involved in the orders process. You have to really understand the scheme manoeuvre. You have to go to the map model. You have to go to the rehearsals. You have to know what’s going on. And you have to be in constant communication with the lead elements and the GFC at all times. And if you don’t know the information, you have to know who to look for to get it. So that is probably one of the most challenging things for a JTAC is knowing where all the lead elements are because we all know how sometimes radios, the range of them, is not the greatest, you know, and we lose comms with recce and we’re not sure where they are. So, a lot of the time, in those situations, a ground commander is going to have to accept that risk of stuff that he or she is planning that they’re executing the last orders received and they are here. And sometimes that’s part of being a commander is accepting risk and making decisions. So, I would say, you are only as good as the information that you’re provided, as a JTAC.
Capt Orton: Here’s the thing, right? Like, let’s just be real here. If you’re dropping a 500-pound bomb on something, it’s probably a problem. You know what I mean?
WO Avery: Exactly.
Capt Orton: People tend not to drop 500-pound bombs on things unless it’s a real threat. And so the question is, if you have six unknown people out and about, like on your side, how much danger is that hypothetical “bum crew” down there? Is it six people dangerous? Because if so, you got to roll the dice. Whereas in, you know, if it’s not, you’re probably not dropping a giant bomb on it.
WO Avery: Exactly, yeah. As JTACs, we just advise, but the ground commander’s assuming that you have a common operating picture with them. So that is one of the things, you know, don’t assume nothing. You’re constantly trying to get information, you’re listening on the radio, and then you’re listening to the aircraft radio. And you’ve heard how a company net can be pretty chaotic sometimes.
Capt Orton: I was just going to say chaotic is...
WO Avery: Yeah, so active listening on radios is a big thing and you kind of get used to. I think a lot of people, when they first start out, that’s kind of difficult for them is being able to manage two radios, at least, at the same time.
Capt Orton: And conceivably also there’s fitting yourself into that process too. So troops know, because I’ve had that experience too, is you’re in the middle of a fight and somebody’s constantly pinging you, hey, where are you guys at? What’s going on? What’s happening here? And it’s like, I’m busy, you know, but also you need that information because maybe somebody’s trying to make that decision and so knowing what’s going on. But on the flip side is also, telling troops like, listen, we need to know where you are and you need to be where you’re supposed to be because if we’re putting big booms in places, it’s a problem.
WO Avery: Yeah. For any like planned offensive operation, you know, one of the do-outs we would ask from the manoeuvre elements would be: we need to know where your lead elements are and their disposition within like one kilometre prior to any close air support strike or, you know, danger close for most 500-pound bombs is approximately 300 metres. So, as soon as you’re 500 metres from the objective, like, stay put. So, say we’re doing that coordinated attack, you know, we have fire base going on this one. These guys are doing a frontal on another target over here. We need these guys to stop 500 metres from that target, minimum, before we put that 500-pounder on the target. So, it’s something that you can plan for in, like, an offensive operation, on a planned one. But I would say that most of the stuff could be a chance engagement, you know, so that’s where everybody gets spun up and trying to figure out where everyone is. That could be confusing.
Capt Orton: Yeah, for sure, because the whole reporting process.
WO Avery: Yes.
Capt Orton: Let’s come back real quick to weaponry. You’re focusing on aircraft. Do you touch any other types of delivery systems?
WO Avery: So, we’ve worked with the American HIMARS systems – it’s rocket artillery.
Capt Orton: Yeah.
WO Avery: We coordinate with M777, Paladin, howitzers, mortars. We just did an exercise with 3 RCR mortars. So, anything weapons, we work with it. We train and plan to use harpoons from the Navy or 5-inch guns from the destroyers. So, anything that shoots a bomb or a projectile, we’re integrating it.
Capt Orton: You know, what are the kinds of things that influence your decision making in terms of, let’s talk about methods of attack, like how do you fit into that system?
WO Avery: There’s a lot to consider, a lot of different things. But what kind of comes to mind is the aircraft capabilities, the type of weapons it has is a big thing, you know, whether it has precision guided munitions or unguided munitions. The weather is a big one.
Capt Orton: Yeah.
WO Avery: Especially, you know, for employing, like, laser guided weapons. They need to have at least 5,000 feet clear to the surface to employ a laser guided weapon. So those are the big ones. And also, proportionality, like, the aircraft’s only got 2,000-pound bombs, but you have one enemy dismount. It’s probably not a good time to drop a 2,000-pounder on them when a section attack would probably handle it.
Capt Orton: Yeah, which brings us to collateral damage, right?
WO Avery: Yes.
Capt Orton: Where does collateral damage fit into what a JTAC does?
WO Avery: So, it’s something we always got to consider. So, it’s unnecessary damage in the circumstances ruling at the time. Let’s say that same scenario we talked about, that there’s one enemy and we’re going to drop a 2,000-pounder that’s near civilian infrastructure of some kind. You would have to talk to the boss and say, hey, this is probably not the best idea. Can we do something else? How about we use a gun strafe from the aircraft, you know? That’s not going to put any effects into the civilian infrastructure. That’s an example. But sometimes, the commander can accept that risk, you know, if the juice is worth the squeeze on something. But you have to advise them correctly because they’re not experts on weapons pairing with target types. But at the end of the day, it’s the commander’s decision and risk to take.
Capt Orton: And that’s where we talk about effects, right? Which is, what is going to happen to this target. And sometimes you don’t always know that answer. Whenever I describe this context is, it’s like the engineers. I don’t say, go build a wire fence over there. I say, I need to slow down infantry dismounts in a place that I can’t see something. You tell me, as the subject matter expert, what’s the best thing to do here? So too, I would imagine in the JTAC space, it’s about, this is a target we’re looking to destroy. And then you say, well, these are the types of weaponry that we have available and this one probably does the best job.
WO Avery: Exactly, yeah. So, typically, you wouldn’t use CAS aircraft. If your integral Army assets can meet the ground commander’s intent, you would use those.
Capt Orton: Right.
WO Avery: Typically, we’re bringing in the CAS aircraft for stuff that the Army integrally can’t handle. So, we’re talking fortified structures, armour, those sorts of things. This is the stuff that CAS missions would get used on. I think in the Afghanistan days, there was a lot of CAS, you know, being used because there was just so much that it was readily available. But in the new modern battle space with air defense and also enemy aircraft out there, that if you’re going to strike something with CAS, the vulnerability of the aircraft, it has to be worth it, essentially, that you can’t destroy yourself.
Capt Orton: And that’s a really good point. And, you know, Afghanistan’s always an interesting conversation because you have these grape huts, which basically look like bunkers. It’s a giant square structure with holes in it that allow air to pass through to dry out the grapes. But it’s made out of, basically, clay that’s like concrete. Very difficult to destroy as it turns out. To the surprise of many people. And you know, that’s where that aircraft came in. But like you said, air supremacy, right? The totality of air control means that you can just bring in an airplane anytime and there’s no real risk to that other than the inherent risks of flying an airplane, I guess.
WO Avery: Exactly, yeah. I remember I saw a 500-pounder dropped on a grape hut in 2010 and we would take fire from this grape hut all the time. We were firing mortars at it. It wasn’t really doing anything. 25 millimetre wasn’t doing anything. And then, one time the JTAC who was there, I think we were taking mortar fire from that. They had something in that grape hut. And then, yeah, I think the ground commander had it at that point. And some 500-pounder came and there wasn’t much left of it after that.
Capt Orton: It worked.
WO Avery: It worked.
Capt Orton: Do you spend a lot of time considering the aircraft safety in terms of, let’s call it, the air superiority picture?
WO Avery: Yeah, that’s something we’re always planning. It’s one of those things that is, kind of, we need to talk to the Int folks, you know, when we’re in the planning process, like what enemy air defense is out there. So we have some planning figures that we use. We plot all that stuff on our maps where potential enemy air defense is. And so if we do get CAS aircraft, that we can brief them on threats and that we can park them, essentially, safe outside of those threats.
Capt Orton: Where are you physically during all of this? Are you hanging out with the ground commander and then running back and forth to the front edge where there’s a platoon pinned down or whatever? Like, what does that look like?
WO Avery: So, it’s where we can best affect the battle. So, well, first of all, we have to have comms with the decision-maker and the commander, so, whether that’s person-to-person over the radio. So that’s definitely, you have to have that. Say, if you were supporting recce, you probably want to be on the forward line of your own troops with them. So, if you’re the only JTAC in a battalion, you would probably want to be in the CP or the headquarters element where all the information is getting fed into.
Capt Orton: Right.
WO Avery: Because, if you’re just the single JTAC and your whole battalion’s around you, you’re not going to have SA on where everybody’s going.
Capt Orton: Yeah, and being in the CP, or the command post, makes a little bit more sense than being on the front line when, you know, the front line is eight kilometres long.
WO Avery: Exactly, yeah. So, the short answer is it depends on who you’re supporting and the size of them. And if you have good communications equipment, and we have video downlinks from the aircraft, we’re in the headquarters, we have good SA on where everybody is, we can do strikes from in the CP.
Capt Orton: I was curious, how do you be a JTAC?
WO Avery: It all depends on the situation at the time at, like, your brigade. Ideally, the Army wants us to have 16 JTACs in the brigade. So, the ideal is, you know, we’re looking for a master corporal, sergeant, junior sergeant from combat trades. Who meets the prerequisite right now? So, the prerequisite for the course is combat arms, master corporal, or lieutenant if you’re an officer. So, yeah, maybe 50-50 now is between the infantry and the artillery. And then certain trades in the Air Force can do it.
Capt Orton: What are you looking for? Like, what are you looking for in people?
WO Avery: It’s kind of those highly motivated individuals. Like, we’re looking for the same people that everybody else is looking for.
Capt Orton: Yeah, right.
WO Avery: You know, we’re, there’s a lot of competition, you know, for those high performing individuals.
Capt Orton: Yeah.
WO Avery: So, we have a lot of suitable candidates who are really good, but they’re needed in other aspects or other jobs in the CAF. But usually, we’re looking for somebody who can work independently, has good critical thinking skills. Good communicators to be able to talk on the radio with the aircraft. That one is very important. Some people, when they put a headset on and start talking on the radio…
Capt Orton: They just fall apart.
WO Avery: …they’re like, I hear myself, I can’t do it.
Capt Orton: Yeah, that’s right.
WO Avery: So, it can be tough. So, we’re looking for quick learners because the course itself is, it’s very demanding theory-wise. Like, they’re putting a lot on your plate up front and there’s a lot to digest there.
Capt Orton: Like what?
WO Avery: Like all the weapons that you need to know about.
Capt Orton: Right.
WO Avery: The whole ground force commander advising piece, understanding manoeuvres. Like, it’s almost a zero to hero course. If you were to think about it like this way, like, we’re making a master corporal have higher training than a captain who’s a forward observer officer.
Capt Orton: For sure.
WO Avery: And that person, who’s been a FOO, has been, like, kind of making their way, some kind of progression through that for different jobs to get ready for that. We’re making, you know, this person could have been a section commander or section 2IC, and now we’re taking you out and you’re going to get a two-week pre-course, and then after you graduate this course, you’re a certified JTAC. But it doesn’t end at the course either. So, when you finish the course…
Capt Orton: It always begins at the course.
WO Avery: Yeah. So, the course at the end, you’re only a certified JTAC. So, you actually have to do, you know, another six months to a year of training before you’re a fully qualified JTAC who can control independently, sometimes a little bit longer. So, it’s a lot of hoops you have to jump through. And the course itself has a pretty high failure rate. It’s 50, 60% pass rate, so it’s very demanding. There’s a lot of JTACs around in different units who needed to do it twice to pass.
Capt Orton: You know what, and I’ve had this conversation with a lot of people in the context of that in different spaces, which is failing a course does not mean you’re bad.
WO Avery: Oh, exactly, yeah.
Capt Orton: Failing the course means you got some stuff to work on and if you work on it, it’s going to be okay.
WO Avery: You know what? Exactly. Like, nobody at the unit is going to give you a hard time for you failing the JTAC course. Because guess what? You put your hand up and tried. A lot of people, they’re scared of failure and they don’t even want to try, even though maybe you’re interested in the back of your mind, but you don’t want to put yourself out there to challenge yourself. So, if anybody’s looking for, you know, a way to challenge yourself mentally and do a really fun job, like, JTAC is good.
[ Music starts ]
Capt Orton: Well, thanks a lot for explaining all this stuff to us. You really went into depth. I really appreciate it. It’s awesome.
WO Avery: Yeah, no problem.
Capt Orton: That was Warrant Officer Jace Avery, a JTAC with the 2nd Regiment of the Royal Canadian Horse Artillery here in Petawawa with us on the road. I’m Captain Adam Orton for the Canadian Army Podcast. Orton out.
[ Music ends ]