Gabriele talks to us about his upbringing in Genoa, his self-taught artistic training, his love for the history of art, and for photography.
He explains the process of creating pebble mosaics, including the selection of stones and the use of lime mortar. He also discusses the importance of preserving the skills and techniques of mosaic making and the impact of climate change on the availability of materials.
We met Gabriele in a city park called Campo Pisano – where Genoa once beat Pisa at the battle of Meloria, and confined more than 9,000 prisoners. Here he is restoring a memorial mosaic which was first made by Gabriele’s teacher Armando Porta. Further info and images on Wikipedia.
For many centuries Genoa wielded enormous power as a maritime republic and was considered one of the wealthiest cities in the world. On our way to Gabriele’s studio he showed us the narrow streets and wonderful architecture, with layers of history.
Liguria, is a region of northern Italy; a narrow strip bordered by sea on one side and densely wooded mountains on the other. The air here smells of salt from the sea, minerals from the rocks, and pine from the hills. Its traditional crafts are mostly inspired by materials from the sea and forests.
Gabriele emphasises the need to pass on the craft to future generations. Gabriele's work is driven by his deep connection to nature and a desire to create beautiful and sustainable art.
Gabriele talks to us about his upbringing in Genoa, his self-taught artistic training, his love for the history of art, and for photography.
He explains the process of creating pebble mosaics, including the selection of stones and the use of lime mortar. He also discusses the importance of preserving the skills and techniques of mosaic making and the impact of climate change on the availability of materials.
We met Gabriele in a city park called Campo Pisano – where Genoa once beat Pisa at the battle of Meloria, and confined more than 9,000 prisoners. Here he is restoring a memorial mosaic which was first made by Gabriele’s teacher Armando Porta. Further info and images on Wikipedia.
For many centuries Genoa wielded enormous power as a maritime republic and was considered one of the wealthiest cities in the world. On our way to Gabriele’s studio he showed us the narrow streets and wonderful architecture, with layers of history.
Liguria, is a region of northern Italy; a narrow strip bordered by sea on one side and densely wooded mountains on the other. The air here smells of salt from the sea, minerals from the rocks, and pine from the hills. Its traditional crafts are mostly inspired by materials from the sea and forests.
Gabriele emphasises the need to pass on the craft to future generations. Gabriele's work is driven by his deep connection to nature and a desire to create beautiful and sustainable art.
A podcast where artists tell their stories through the materials they choose.
Gabriele Gelatti:
When I work, you know, like I do a mosaic, it's long, of course. It's a walk of patience. You handle thousands of stones, and you develop, special, instruments with your mind to know where to put a stone without think, you know, you act. But what I like is, like, I work like an animal in the sense that, you know, like, I feel like an insect using humble things from the nature and then assembling to make an incredible structure or something. So this make me closer to nature, and I understand.
Gabriele Gelatti:
And this is why I say, yes, we can go back, use the most natural elements, and then also look in the future.
Sarah Monk:
Hi. This is Sarah with another episode of Materially Speaking, where artists and artisans tell their stories through the materials they choose. Today, Mike Hackson and I are in Liguria, a region of Northern Italy bordered by sea on one side and densely wooded mountains on the other. Here, the air smells of salt from the sea, minerals from the rocks, and pines from the hills. Liguria is well known for the Cinque Terre, the pretty town of Portofino, and the grand and gritty capital, Genoa.
Sarah Monk:
Today, we're meeting Gabrielle Gilati, a specialist in the regional art of pebble mosaics, which often adorn churchyards and aristocratic gardens. For many centuries, Genoa wielded enormous power as a maritime republic and was considered one of the wealthiest cities in the world. We met Gabriel in a city park called Campopisano, where Genoa once beat Pisa at the battle of Maloria and confined more than 9,000 prisoners. After showing us the mosaic he's repairing there, Gabriel gives us a passionate walking tour of Genoa, ending with a 150 steps up shiny slate stairs to his studio. Inside, we find geometric paintings on the walls, a large assortment of pebbles and oil paints, along with pots of powdered paints, lapis lazuli blue, and a strange brown powder gathered from a meteorite.
Sarah Monk:
We ask him to introduce himself.
Gabriele Gelatti:
Hello, I'm Gabriela gelati like ice creams, but with double t. So gelati. I'm a professional mosaic maker. Actually, I'm specialized in these pebble mosaics. I'm artist.
Gabriele Gelatti:
I produce new design. So I try to put tradition together with the new vision of future.
Sarah Monk:
Can we find out where you were born and a little bit about your childhood?
Gabriele Gelatti:
I was born in Geneva. I live here. Actually, the story of my family, if you want, is linked to the books. My father was a book merchant. I was born in the middle of culture.
Gabriele Gelatti:
As a young man, if you want, I do many different art activities, but I always pointed out knowledge of materials like I was a puppeteer. Really? Creating my own puppets in wood, like the Chinese Oh, I
Sarah Monk:
can see one over there. Yeah. Did you go to art school there?
Gabriele Gelatti:
No. I did school in humanities, but I always trained by myself. I prefer to deepen my theoretical knowledges because if you have it inside, you practice always humanities and the science going together. Okay. So in this field, the knowing of materials and the the sensibility to use them to make something artistic.
Mike Axinn:
In the humanities, was there a specific concentration that you studied? Actually,
Gabriele Gelatti:
yes. I study a lot, the history of art. And then by practicing, you know, also photography, I was a good printer in the wet photography period, epoch. And, I like minerals, so I discovered a lot the world of colors today. I paint.
Gabriele Gelatti:
Actually, I actually, I paint after long time and I create special mandalas, images that are based on studies on golden ratio, golden number, Fibonacci number. What is difference between beauty and sense, intelligence, you know? To my eyes is not so far away. This is funny because if I think about my mathematical passion, you know, the word calculus calculus, okay, calculator, actually is from Latin and calculus meaning little pebble. So everything is linked.
Mike Axinn:
It was very fun walking the streets with you. Uh-huh. Were you in these streets when you were young, when you were a boy?
Gabriele Gelatti:
Yes. Yes. Yes. I actually, I know Genova very well. I know the shortcuts, I know the secret stones.
Gabriele Gelatti:
I like this stone, it's very nice, but I'm observing Genova. Maybe he was my teacher in this because the perspectives are always override that they teach you to change perspective, you know, to observe things from different angles and then to receive the right image. It's the same when I go and look for pebbles. How do you know that that pebble is the is the good one? Maybe it looks, you know, one side looks good and the turn is is not good.
Gabriele Gelatti:
But then I I think it's something like that. It develops this sense of watching things from different angles. What I like about my work is not the mosaic idea, but is really the material, the pebbles. Pebbles that are natural, that are coming from the beach. You know, Liguria is a strange region because it's all coastline, but is probably the greenest region in Italy for the amount of woods, valleys, or mountains.
Gabriele Gelatti:
So when you go to the beach and look at the pebbles, actually pebbles tell the history of a landscape. You see the red pebbles coming from a place, the green ones, the white, the gray, the blacks is a description not only of the places of origin but also of the process because when we collect a pebble that we recognize as good pebble for the mosaic of pebbles and so as to have certain, of course, qualities. Also, we think about the description of this landscape. Is the mountain falling down? Is the stone arriving to the streams?
Gabriele Gelatti:
Modern rivers. In Nigeria, we don't have big rivers. Okay. It's mountain streams. Then maybe they dry almost all the year, and then suddenly there's a flood and then a lot of material is moved.
Gabriele Gelatti:
And then with a long time, it arrives to the beach, And, of course, the sea finished the work that was started by the water of the streams. With my enterprise, I do both new mosaics, but I also do restoration of antiques. If we work for private, I buy stones. There's actually a worldwide market starting from Italy of pebbles. So, of course, I select the best pebbles.
Gabriele Gelatti:
I always look for stones I can buy, but, of course, if I have to make some restorations with special permissions by local authorities. We can go on the beach and, like in the past, take the stones from there. When I say that to friends, today we got to the beach. Lucky you. Lucky you.
Gabriele Gelatti:
Yes. I feel lucky, but, I promise it's one of the most tiring part of my work, not because of the stones you have to bring and carry that is heavy. Okay? But this is secondary. It's really the concentration that is demanded to find the right stones between billions of stones in the same beach.
Sarah Monk:
What are you looking for?
Gabriele Gelatti:
The perfect stone has to be okay. We have to talk about the technique. When we put the stones, we don't just lay them down. We plant them and we stick inside like nails. Okay.
Gabriele Gelatti:
So the stone is deep. So you have the head that is it's like an iceberg. Imagine an iceberg. Then of course the pebbles have to be straight on the edges because you have to put them next to other pebbles very close. They're touching each other, so if you have strange shapes it's no good, okay?
Gabriele Gelatti:
Also because the head has to be comfortable to walk over. In this moment, the big restoration I am finishing in Genoa, in Chartosa, Chartreuse. How do you say? Chartreuse. There is a Chartreuse in Genoa with a big cloister in front of it, and actually it's the oldest mosaic we know of is from the 16th century and is also very big because it's 800 square meters.
Gabriele Gelatti:
So in that mosaic, of course, is so precious, is so important that we have a financing from the Ministry of Accultura so it's a cultural treasure. You can't buy stones. Okay? You have to have the same stones. So to find the right spots, also the right beach where this stone is coming from, you know, is not easy easy.
Gabriele Gelatti:
And also when we go and collect, so we collect the black and white. We have normally white drawings on black backgrounds. Black stones are special because they were all selected in the past quite flat and long elongated. So you have to look for that shape, that size, but also what happens is that after centuries of people walking over it, even if the stones are very strong, are very hard materials, they were flattened down by the passage. So it's difficult because you have to find this kind of purpose.
Gabriele Gelatti:
With the head that is naturally flattened down on the beach, we find, but it's hard to find. In Genova, luckily, we still have a beach, just black stones. For the white, we have to travel 80 kilometers away from Genova. We go to Lavagna Beach, where there is a long, long beach with all colors. Gray, red is typical from Lavagna too, but again looking a bit not too white, not too shining because actually stones, they have a surface oxidation.
Gabriele Gelatti:
So we look for yellowish stones. It's hard work. So that is why I say it's very tiring because it demands an amount of concentration that you really feel exhausted at the end of
Mike Axinn:
the day. When these works are overseen by cultural heritage, do they care if the stones come from here, from Liguria?
Gabriele Gelatti:
Actually, today is kind of demanded.
Mike Axinn:
Can we talk a little bit about how you learned your craft?
Gabriele Gelatti:
Of course, with pleasure. I met Armando, my my master that was a very important person. He could really transmit the passion of, the his work, but also this element landscape. So for me the pebble is part of a landscape. So what can be a difference between, say, my epoch, not me in person, but my epoch and my master epoch is that in his epoch it was oral transmission.
Gabriele Gelatti:
Today we have other instruments. We have scientific research, the study of materials, but the problem is still that to protect the skills. All this kind of heritage is at risk. So my passion was also that because since I'm a child, in general, I'm full of these beautiful works because actually today the Mosaico pebble is associated to the churches. In front of the church, any church in Liguria, you find, so it became a popular art, but when he was born in the Rinacimento was a very aristocratic art in the sense that the pebble was used to create these beautiful artificial grottoes, ning fei, gardens for the aristocratic families creating these beautiful buildings and palazzi, villas, and then there is also a philosophical, interest because it's a moment in which they rediscovered the ideas of Plato and then the transformation, the metamorphosis of nature.
Gabriele Gelatti:
It's quite, you see, it's quite alchemical idea, okay? So, when they create these mosaics in this villa they use pebbles amongst other natural materials like shells, corals, crystals, but from the mid 16th century, that is the one in Certosa, in the big church there is not one religious sign, not a single. You don't accept the 7 stars of the chartreusean order. If you look there are also 36 squares with different drawings, they depict the geometry, but, most of them is symbolic ideas. We see the dragons.
Gabriele Gelatti:
You will see the mermaids. You will see the moon and the sun considered like, you know, opposites, like alchemical opposites. You say, but why this? Strange. Actually, it's because inside this cyrtoza the monks were the sons of the aristocratic families.
Gabriele Gelatti:
So they share the same culture of their origin and they had also the money to do that, you know, studies. They could go on and then assure that there was a circle of this kind of esoteric meanings. These themes you can also find in later mosaics, like the one in Palazzo Real, where we see the moon and the sun. In Genova, many things that we call genuis today, you know, somehow are coming from abroad, from the oversea. And then they became, you know, again elaborated here and find the local shape.
Mike Axinn:
I just wanna come back to the origins of Campopisano.
Gabriele Gelatti:
Campopisano, as the name says, is from Pisa. Why campo, middle, no field, originates from the end of the war between Genoa and Pisa and is the Battle of Meloria, is the end of 13th century, and Genoa is the winner of this battle. The square that is very picturesque is today is covered with this traditional mosaic that was made by my master in the nineties by Armando Porter, that was my master. Actually, it's a beautiful work because they managed to create an ice square, but in that epoch, the materials are kind of lost. In the nineties, early nineties, an old person like my master for sure he couldn't Google for the good lime for this kind of thing so they did it how they could but it's a good result.
Gabriele Gelatti:
Campopisano is an important place to see in Genoa and is linked to these famous battles. They kept many prisoners brought to Genoa and of course the important prisoners were treated very well and put in half comfortable prisons, you know, because they were asking money back. So amongst these guests we had for instance Marco Paul, that is Venetian, famous Venetian, but he was in the battle, in the Meloria battle, and then he was captured by the Genoese. They knew that it was Marco Polo brought to the prisons of Palazzo San Giorgio to say, so something bad comes out something good. The normal prisoners for the battle were thrown, put in this kind of lager.
Gabriele Gelatti:
I don't know, we can't imagine, but it was probably an open air lager and I think that at the end of these people was not very happy because my master said to me that when they were digging there, actually, they found the bones. Okay. And, every year they make a it's incredible, they make a celebration, the major of Pisa, the major of general, they gather in Campo Pisa and they celebrate the peace the peace between the 2.
Sarah Monk:
When do they do that? Is that in the summer?
Gabriele Gelatti:
I think it's in springtime.
Sarah Monk:
Spring. How nice. Yeah. Yeah.
Mike Axinn:
So what is your project there now? I saw that you were putting little pieces in.
Gabriele Gelatti:
Actually, the little square is very visited and had the problems of solidity for technical reasons. Okay? Water running underneath. So they had to destroy a part of it, and then we are going to make it again. In the meanwhile, I'm restoring also the main drawing that is an historical battleship from that epoch, Gallia, Genovese, and also there are some flags.
Gabriele Gelatti:
I think we have Genova, then we have the flag of the Castello that is a historical town. In any case, what we want to do is bring that square back to a beautiful situation, okay, because it really deserves. For instance, if we go and see this first genuis mosaic that suddenly appear in the Shinya shimeto made of pebbles, we see that the style is very special. We see that they use for the black background, a very special style putting the stones. The technical definition is opus spicatum.
Gabriele Gelatti:
It's like when you put the stones. Fishtail? Fishtail.
Sarah Monk:
Yeah. So like herringbone, I think we might call it.
Gabriele Gelatti:
But then next development of the Genoese mosaic was kind of lost, this practice. What happens is that if you go to southern Spain, you'll find there's a pebble mosaic tradition, especially in Granada.
Sarah Monk:
I was just gonna say that the story of January is so much about the trade and the travel and how this is a very big melting pot here for ideas and energy.
Mike Axinn:
Well, actually, to your point, I wanted to ask about your assistant, Justin.
Gabriele Gelatti:
So why Justin? Justin is special. He's a refugee. He's coming from Biafra, from Nigeria, but I was making a social laboratory and then amongst, you know, people say, wow, this guy is something special. I don't know.
Gabriele Gelatti:
Maybe it's just a gift, maybe it's because in his own country, in the village, you know, they people is accustomed to do things with their hands. You know? In our western world, it's like you can't do anything anymore, you know, kind of. So, it's a different perspective. If I have a team like 20 people adjusting, we can destroy and make a Campo Pizzano in 1 month, you know, well done.
Gabriele Gelatti:
You have to worry about keeping the art, maintaining the art alive and also instruments to pass it over to a younger generation.
Sarah Monk:
Can you take us through briefly the process? So you've gathered your pebbles.
Gabriele Gelatti:
For a normal mosaic, you have 10 to 8 centimeters of bedding. Then you can trace a drawing. If you want you can create you can compose as you like and then you put the pebbles. Pebbles are like nails. So you stack them inside and you also look for the comfortable side you want to work on it.
Gabriele Gelatti:
It has to be comfortable for your feet and then okay. Imagine you are creating a wall. You translate it to the floor. You go in front of you. You create a line, like a line that is growing, growing, growing, growing, but and then you have possible change of stones, different colors, you want to make a border to your drawing, depends.
Gabriele Gelatti:
You try to be regular, as regular as you can. You don't put 1 stone down, 1 up. You also check that the stones you insert are not too tight, for instance. When you will flatten down, the shapes of the stones can go one over the other and then one stone will trap the other next to it and push it down too much, okay, that is difficult to recuperate, okay. So you have to put it very close, but also regular like that so you're sure that it will go down altogether.
Gabriele Gelatti:
Because then the final passage is you flat it down.
Sarah Monk:
Do you hammer it? How do
Gabriele Gelatti:
you do that? Yeah. Yeah. I hammer it. If you by mistake walk over the mosaic in that moment, you will make a disaster.
Gabriele Gelatti:
Okay. Hammering down is gradual. You know the level you won't arrive, but you have to do it gradually all over the surface. So you don't start only from one corner and want to make it perfect there because then it will go down and up. So gradually you make one passage all over the surface, you make another passage and then again and again and then all together you arrive to have the final level that is very, very solid.
Gabriele Gelatti:
So you have to make it to the perfect level so so that you can see the stones, but it's solid and no dirt will go inside.
Mike Axinn:
When you're hammering, is there a sound that lets you know that it's good?
Gabriele Gelatti:
Yes. More than a sound. What I know is that when, I always say, it's not a matter of strength, it's a matter of precision. Okay? So what I know is that when I hammer and I see that there is not a slightest bit of a millimeter going down, doesn't go down anymore, stop, is incredible.
Gabriele Gelatti:
It's a walk you observe very little, little things, like little plants, little insects, little so you have a vision of details, but, yes, you feel it. That is perfect.
Sarah Monk:
That's wonderful. Incredible.
Gabriele Gelatti:
Can I say another thing? Because the lime is very important. The production of lime immortal is amazing. Different limes you can make, different materials you can add and then different use of this is incredible. So there is a Chircolo Virtuous circle.
Gabriele Gelatti:
Because, of course, you burn a stone and then you emit heat and you drink carbonica.
Mike Axinn:
What's carbonica? CO2.
Gabriele Gelatti:
And then what happens when you put this material back in at work, okay, you won't use it, then the material will harden in time because it will suck back the CO2.
Mike Axinn:
Exactly the same amount. It takes carbon out of the air.
Gabriele Gelatti:
From the air, from the atmosphere. Mhmm. So if you just think about it, it's just one good reason to use lime, of course. Okay?
Mike Axinn:
Right.
Gabriele Gelatti:
When I walk, you know, like I do a mosaic, it's long, of course. It's a work of patience. You handle thousands of stones and, you develop special instruments with your mind to know where to put a stone without thinking. But what I like is, like, I work like an animal in the sense that I feel like an insect using things given already from the nature and then assembling to make an incredible structure or something. So this make me closer to nature, and this is why I say, yes, we can go back, use the most natural elements, and then also look in the future.
Sarah Monk:
So thanks to Gabriel for a great interview and delicious trophy pesto lunch, which we ate on his terrace overlooking Genoa's rooftops, shipyard, and in the distance, the Italian Alps. You can discover more about Gabriel on his website, mosecidicciottoli.it, or on Facebook at facebook.com, mozei cidicottoli. Thanks for listening. As with all episodes, you can find photographs of the work discussed on our website, materially speaking.com, or on Instagram at materially speaking podcast. If you're enjoying materially speaking, please subscribe to our newsletter on our website, and we'll let you know when the next episode goes live.