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Conversations on Reforestation, Silviculture, Tree Genetics, Planting, Planning and More! Join us as we go deep with forestry experts and explore the art and science of trees.
Paul Jeffreys (00:05)
Hello and welcome everybody to the ArborGen TreeLines podcast and welcome to episode 15. Today we're going to be diving into proving the value of genetics and we're to be talking about the data, the doubt and the decades of research that have gone into tree improvement and ⁓ the background of it. And I am joined today. My very special guest is Graham Ford.
and we, he is the founder and principal consultant of Ford Linkage Group. Welcome. ⁓ welcome Graham
Graham Ford (00:38)
Thank you, Paul. I appreciate you having me.
Paul Jeffreys (00:39)
Uh,
uh, is a pleasure. We've been, you know, wanting to get you on here and to discuss, but, uh, you know, uh, can you want to give us a little quick, uh, background of yourself and tell us a little bit about how you got into forestry and what brought you, uh, to the point you are today in your career.
Graham Ford (00:57)
Yeah, sure. Well, I got into forestry long before I knew that forestry could be a profession. I grew up playing in the woods, running through creek bottoms. I was just, I think you just have a natural propensity like a lot of young folks. know, that was fostered and stewarded to further through my dad. Grew up, you know, hunting, fishing, spending a lot of time outside and...
Paul Jeffreys (01:07)
yeah.
Graham Ford (01:23)
When I started deciding or thinking about next steps after high school, I learned that you could go and study forest management at NC State. So that was it. There were no other choices or thoughts. So went to NC State and stayed for all the degrees they would give me. So bachelor's, master's, PhD at NC State.
Paul Jeffreys (01:44)
Like
Like like myself I did the same thing I'm kind of from the same, you know, it's funny how much we have in common It's it's ⁓ I did the same thing growing up in ⁓ northwest rural, Alabama and I remember as a I remember as a kid, I had a honda three-wheeler and ⁓ man and when school was out in the summertime,
Graham Ford (01:53)
Yeah.
goodness.
Paul Jeffreys (02:08)
I, ⁓ you know, just like you, I'm sure when school was out for summer vacation, if you wanted to find me, I would be looking under some log for some kind of salamander, or I would be chasing some kind of, trying to identify some kind of snake that was, was out there. And then when it came winter time hunting season was open and you know, it, I think it's just, it gets in our blood, man.
Graham Ford (02:33)
Yeah.
Paul Jeffreys (02:36)
Amen.
Graham Ford (02:36)
It is,
it truly is in our DNA, might we say. I think when you expose young folks to the natural world, there is just something truly organic and simple and it makes sense. I'm so fortunate that I got to have that chance to grow up near.
nature. And then it was such an eye-opening experience to go and study it formally in college. And I was, again, so fortunate then to continue to have good mentors and colleagues at NC State. And I crossed paths with Steve McKeon when I was in undergrad and took a class in forest genetics and biology that he taught. And then he said, hey, would you
Paul Jeffreys (03:19)
Right?
Graham Ford (03:25)
I was thinking about graduate school and, and he said, well, you know, would you consider, what's talked more about tree improvement? And my original thought was I didn't know trees needed to be improved. And, and I said, well, tell me more. So, uh, so then it just took off from there and, uh, stayed for, stayed for a PhD under, after Steve's, Steve's encouragement, Fickret's encouragement, Ross Whitten also. And, uh, it was, it was tough, but fun. And, and it's just been, again, no.
Paul Jeffreys (03:36)
Right, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Graham Ford (03:54)
No looking back. so stayed, stayed on actually with the tree improvement program on staff for a couple of years before going to industry. And, and then about almost three years ago, went out on my own and started Ford linkage group. And now I get to help clients to do tree improvement, still breeding, testing, selection, orchard projects, internal research projects. But I also get to.
communicate and work with other stakeholders in the kind of connected groups, know, those folks that are utilizing the resources, the products, the outputs of tree improvement. Love getting to help them by diving into greater detail and putting the genetics to work.
Paul Jeffreys (04:40)
Yeah, it's, I'm glad you, ⁓ I'm glad you went into that detail about your background cause it speaks a lot about, you know, Steve McKean, Dr. McKean there at NC state and the whole tree improvement co-op that if you made an impression on those guys and you impressed them enough for them to ask you to come back and go in and join that group and go into research and, you know, build a, graduate.
or graduate degree on that. It's kind of like, you know, if you, when you get that opportunity, it's just, you can't turn that down. I mean, it is, you know, kind of the same, follow along the same line of, worked at Mississippi State and graduated from there. And the professor who,
Graham Ford (05:14)
Yeah, yeah.
Paul Jeffreys (05:25)
was did his PhD, my major professor did his PhD under Bruce Zobel, who started the Tree Improvement Co-op there at NC State and at other, you know, Texas A&M You know, it is, it's all about going on to the next generation. And if you get the opportunity to be invited to be a part of that, that speaks, you know, that speaks volumes.
about your capabilities and what you did there and the work you did. ⁓
Graham Ford (05:53)
Well, I appreciate
that.
I'm like you said, I'm really fortunate to have gotten to know Steve and there's so many others. can't even mention all of them. But I feel again, just honored to get to work with such know, a accomplished group of practitioners, thought leaders, and I just, you know,
Paul Jeffreys (06:15)
Right.
Graham Ford (06:19)
it's, it's not any one person, ultimately collectively collaboratively. We, we do a lot and it's, it's interesting to kind of think through that a little bit. I, I hope, you know, hope we're continuing to, I ⁓ truly believe we are continuing to carry the torch properly on tried and true techniques, data driven decisions. And so those philosophies that were started by, by Zobel and then who he taught and then.
Again, those philosophies are still in place and man, he's unfortunately he's gone, but his efforts that he began are still with us today. that ultimately is the attention to detail, the uncompromising work ethic on doing things right. It is so necessary in tree improvement, forest genetics.
Paul Jeffreys (06:47)
Yes.
Yes.
Graham Ford (07:09)
seed orchards, deployment, nurseries, everything that is connected because these small efforts and the little small projects that we work on, maybe in the developmental population, they ultimately are going to show up on tens of thousands of acres a year or hundreds of thousands of acres in due time. So it is so important to take great care and to feel really convicted about
Paul Jeffreys (07:25)
Yes.
Graham Ford (07:34)
how you go about that work on the R &D front.
Paul Jeffreys (07:35)
And that, that, that,
that is a very good point there, Graham, because in one of, in one of Dr. Zobel's publications, I do remember reading that one of the big major conflicts or one of the problems with the tree improvement and the co-ops and everything is finding someone to pass that. And this is, was not hit. I'm not quoting per, you know, verbatim, basically is finding someone with the same.
⁓ drive and the same goals to hand that torch off to when you come to, because look, let's face it, tree improvement. And we're going to get into this a little bit later on, but tree improvement is not a fast, it's not a fast developing, discipline. is, it is because you've got 25, you know, 30 year rotations. have developed techniques that we've talked about.
But getting back to talking about the ones that came before us in tree improvement, it's like my ⁓ colleague and good friend, Jason Watson has said before, you know, on the shoulders of giants. And I think, you know, you did your, you did your work under Dr. McKeen and he did his work, I believe under Dr. Zobel.
Graham Ford (08:38)
That's the way I put it.
Paul Jeffreys (08:48)
So, you know, you and I, have, as I put it, I always termed it as he's our academic grandfather. And, you know, I take, I take a lot of, it's very humbling and I take a lot of pride in being able to say that the father of tree improvement is mine and your academic grandfather.
Graham Ford (08:56)
I like that.
I really like that. I've never heard anybody put it that way. I might have to start using that.
Paul Jeffreys (09:16)
That's the, please, because you, sounds like you and I are cut from the same Bush of like, I mean, that is that, that's, speaks volumes. It does. my gosh. But anyway, so that today's today's podcast, and we're going to want to dive into, there's a lot of noise right now around genetics and there's a lot of claims about growth and there's, you know,
Graham Ford (09:24)
kind of makes us cousins in a way.
Ha
Paul Jeffreys (09:42)
Look, forestry improvement is technology. any, just like any technology, I mean, you and I are using the latest technology. You're in Moultrie, Georgia, correct? I'm in little Detroit, Alabama, and you and I are having a conversation today. So technology is always evolving. And just like in anything else, agriculture, any, row crop, cotton, corn,
soybeans, anything like that, it's genetics are genetics and it's all technology and it is always changing and it is always improving, you know, and there's always, but today we're going to be digging into what's real and I want us to dig into what's real. I want to talk about what's proven.
And I want to also get your input or your ideas on what actually creates value in the woods with your, you know, with Ford Linkage Group and the clientele that you are working with today. What are you talking, what are you hearing from your clients and how are you working with them to create that value on their private property? Because that is what everybody wants to know about.
Graham Ford (10:55)
One of the big things that we're talking about and trying to meet head on is changing markets and challenges in particularly pulpwood, pulp demand, capacity, mill closures. You and I have talked about that and you've been very familiar with the changes for years.
Paul Jeffreys (11:03)
Yes.
Graham Ford (11:17)
I guess maybe the pattern I'm seeing is that there were 10, 15 years, a few mill closures here or there. And in the last four or five years, there's been numerous very large pulp mills close and it's gotten everyone's attention from large vertically integrated companies, TMOs, smaller.
smaller companies, timberland investors, down to even the very small private landowners that may just have a few hundred acres. And it ultimately is going to affect everyone. when everyone at varying levels of awareness and involvement in the forestry sector, one of the first things they'll ask is, hey, I heard that
you know, that meal closed, how is that going to affect things? How is it affecting you? And then that starts a good conversation. I like it's, it's an uncomfortable time. It is very challenging. That probably is putting it, that's way, way under underestimating it for sure. Cause it really truly affects people's lives. And, and be, that as it may, but what I like to say is, Hey, let's look at.
Paul Jeffreys (12:22)
model. Right.
Yes.
Graham Ford (12:35)
the challenges, maybe understand the situations we are in, where, you know, in your particular wood basket, your particular market. And there are opportunities through genetics and silviculture, complementation to instill and develop new strategies and new approaches to build in resiliency, flexibility. And those conversations, if we take, if we take a head on approach,
then it can help develop some confidence that we can do something about it, that we can, again, try to capture some of the better estimate, predict performance and not be trying to play catch up. But you got to do it moving forward. It's got to be, okay, well, how can we manage these new stands, these that are worth fixing, know, reforest, or these that we, maybe very young stands that we have in the ground?
What do we need to do there? Well, that is a complex issue.
Paul Jeffreys (13:32)
Well, and you brought up a good point there talking about the landowners and working with the smaller landowners because getting back to not trying to back up, but to lead into this segue into this. am a, a, a small non-industrial private forest landowner. My family, that's one reason why I'm in forestry is I'm blessed enough. My family had a couple of, I have a couple of family farms, timber farms, tree farms, and
One of them has been in the family for seven generations. ⁓ it is a legacy, a legacy farm. And, that is why I'm one of the reasons why I'm sitting here today, in the role that I am is because I have a passion for that and the environment like you do as well. And I hear a lot, you know, I'm feeling it on both sides. I'm over here working.
Graham Ford (14:00)
Wow.
Paul Jeffreys (14:21)
as a reforestation advisor for ArborGen, working in tree improvement and genetics. But on the other hand, I'm over here in my family, my mother and my other family, my children, they're looking at me going, hey, why can we not sell, why can we not get our, pine plantation over here thinned? And it's 18, 19 years old and it needs to be thinned.
Graham Ford (14:42)
Mm-hmm.
Paul Jeffreys (14:47)
when
You know, 15 plus years ago, we had a Cortland paper mill in Cortland, Alabama, that was a, put it mildly, just a beast at eating wood. I mean, it was eating, I mean, it was taking in so much wood. And I remember my grandparents making very good, getting a very good paycheck from the pulp wood that came off of our family farm. And then in one night that was gone.
Graham Ford (15:12)
It is so disheartening ⁓ because it impacts, for example, y'all as Timberland owners, it affects your market and the folks that worked at that meal, the folks in the communities that depended on that economic input in that area. They didn't call y'all and ask before closing the meal. It's really out of those. Those are factors that are out of our control.
Paul Jeffreys (15:14)
Mm-hmm.
Graham Ford (15:34)
So the conversations with, again, large clients to small clients, it really ultimately comes down to managing the next stands appropriately. And if there are uncertainties in the market, then we need to plan accordingly in our reforestation strategies. again, we do have so many tools and
technologies and also built in kind of inherent institutional knowledge and know how on what we can do and what we believe will work. So it's just that we do need to first recognize that there are changes and challenges and then pivot to what are the next best and appropriate design strategies for those new plantations.
Paul Jeffreys (16:21)
Right. And you mentioned a few things there that, you know, yes, it was gone overnight. And I don't know if you get this comment from the landowners you interact with, but the landowners that I interact with will sometimes, some of them will say, well, how can I afford to reforest or how can I afford to replant
my timberland with the markets that we have today. And, know, getting back into the genetics and why, they really matters that what you're doing is in the genetics. is my comment is, well, number one, your markets that you're, you know, the markets that we have today are not going to be the markets that we have tomorrow. And you have got to strategically.
Graham Ford (17:07)
Mm-hmm.
Paul Jeffreys (17:10)
place yourself in a situation to where, regardless of whatever the market is, you've got something that has value and that you can put on the market. And there is a need for that.
Graham Ford (17:22)
I agree and also try to enroll in those conversations, some positives. And I heard on a call yesterday, it was a good reminder that while pulp demand has drastically decreased usage of saw timber and saw timber, saw timber utilizing facilities have increased in some locations. So I would direct the conversation there on what can we do? And that will create value.
Paul Jeffreys (17:27)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Graham Ford (17:48)
Like you said, and, and I like how you said before that the trees you're planting today are not going to be harvested in this market. They're going to be harvested in some future market. And we don't know the dynamics of those markets. So let's retain a lot of options and flexibility down the road and let's not pigeonhole those stands into a condition where they are.
Paul Jeffreys (18:05)
Right.
Graham Ford (18:13)
in bad stand health or they are narrowly restricted in one product, especially a smaller size class. we can't back up then. We need to, again, retain stand health and focus on STEM value. And ultimately that'll, I think, help folks to be resilient in their portfolios.
Paul Jeffreys (18:36)
Right. And that leads us into a good point is why does genetics matter? is often genetic improvement in forestry, it gets oversimplified. And you and I both know that when I remember my father, let me just say it like this, I remember my father coming home
⁓ one day and we had had a timber harvest and he come home and he said, we are about to replant with second generation genetically improved seedlings. And he was just like, and, and they were called super trees. And, he said, we fit, we're fixing to plant some super trees. And I remember thinking to myself, what in the world is a super tree?
What is, is this something that is, you know, like Superman from the outer space or is this what's, what is a super tree? So I think when, you know, back in those times, it really oversimplified the tree improvement and it, nobody really knew what they were, you know, what they were talking about, but it is so important, Graham.
Graham Ford (19:45)
Yeah. And times have changed for sure. Well, back then, which is not all that long ago, there was no understanding of what the genetic merit, the performance potential was with those seedlings. Likely, likely it was a mix. was, it was, it's just, again, the second gen or you hear it now a third gen.
Paul Jeffreys (19:52)
No.
Graham Ford (20:13)
That nomenclature is used to, it's really just a placeholder when you don't know the specific family. And that's what we need to get down to is the specific family, its attributes, and will it work for your applications. And that terminology of just a generation, second gen, third gen was used for so long. And in my understanding, it's because when the large vertical integrated
Paul Jeffreys (20:36)
Yes.
Graham Ford (20:40)
forest products companies that had tree improvement programs, nurseries, when they would sell seedlings to the private landowners, they would not, certainly would not tell and were not asked to disclose anything about the genetic potential of those seed lots. And folks didn't have the awareness that there really were any major distinctions among families. So it really wasn't.
conversation piece until probably the last, you know, better part of the last 15 plus years, fortunately. And I always like to make sure to get across to folks that are not, you know, are not in these conversations daily, weekly about, you know, optimization of genetics and silviculture. It may be a landowner that
is making a reforestation decision, maybe for the first time or it's been a little while. I always like to say there are so many options down to the specific family and it can seem a little bit daunting, but it is necessary in order for us to drill down, peel the layers on this onion and make the right, the right decision because of whatever you plant, once you plant that family or that material, you cannot change the genetics.
Paul Jeffreys (21:52)
No, you can't you
Graham Ford (21:52)
You could go
and thin, you could fertilize, you can do herbaceous releases and a number of things. You could tweak densities even after you plant. say, man, I maybe planted too many trees per acre, but you cannot change the inherent genetic profile of that family. So I think just working that into the conversation and then folks will say, well, what should I plant? And then that's a whole other segment.
Paul Jeffreys (22:09)
⁓
Yeah. I mean that, that, that just speaks volumes. What you just said right there about you cannot change that genetic, unless you're willing to invest the more money into fixing a mistake. And that you get kind of into the point of, okay, where do I hit the point of diminishing returns here? Because I made this decision.
I based that initial decision on the amount of investment I wanted to invest at that time, or I didn't have all the information. can't tell you, Graham, how many times I'm talking to a landowner. And when I first started in this career with ArborGN ⁓ almost 12 years ago now, when I first started, my first task was just to educate landowners on control pollinated seedlings because
Most of them had no clue as to what that was. They didn't know what it was. you know, when you make that first decision of what genetic you're going to reforest with, you're stuck with that decision unless you either, unless you would make another big investment and go back and start to stand over and.
Graham Ford (23:24)
started over, yeah,
which is a necessary approach in some stands, in the most extreme cases. So maybe if there was a slight miss, you can say, all right, well, hey, that's a tuition payment. Let's make sure not to learn that lesson again. But talking about, well, there's multiple families, and then there's open pollinated, controlled pollinated.
Paul Jeffreys (23:30)
It is.
Graham Ford (23:50)
And there are dozens upon dozens of potential input options. it's, it depends on who you're interacting with in terms of where that conversation goes, man, I love, I love, I love those conversations because it's an opportunity to talk about tree improvement discipline, the work that goes in well, I mean, decades ahead of that seedling decision happening.
And then it kind of, you can also tie into that conversation. What are we doing now to shorten the cycles of selection, breeding testing, to bring more gain per unit time? Those are really fun conversations as well. And I get excited about looking ahead and seeing some of that new material coming online and small amounts to start with and seeing how you can strategically place it, get it out on the land base and.
And again, we're at a good inflection point right now where we are with some the co-op populations, some internal populations that y'all have with some extremely exciting material coming available. again, that's another sort of edge of this discussion to bring folks into awareness on is that not only are there many options, you have many options, but the number
is increasing with time as we continue to tree improvement. Every year we're doing selection, breeding, testing every year. And new orchards are coming online, older orchards are going out or maybe being modified. Maybe middle-aged orchards could be, their composition could be adjusted. And one year to the next, you could make a different decision in terms of what you're planting based on availability. So,
Paul Jeffreys (25:10)
All right.
Graham Ford (25:32)
That's something else I'll bring up to folks is ask, ask who, ask whoever you're working with on making your genetics and seedling decisions. Of course you want to know what you're planting, but ask, Hey, I like this. ⁓ do you have any other options? And what do you have coming down the line? And when, when, when might that be? Cause again, we have a rolling front of selection, breeding testing.
Orchards come online iteratively and there is new material along the way and we're at a good point with that.
Paul Jeffreys (26:04)
Yeah, I mean, it's like I said earlier, it's an ever evolving technology. New things are coming in, old things are going out, you know, but it does take time to go through these cycles to find that, you know, that perfect ⁓ combination of two parents, say, in control pollinated. You know, it takes time because it's, you know, with good science, you've got to
You've got to test it before you send it out and say, hey, this is available too, you know, and talk about why or how is something truly proven in forestry? You know, at what point do we get to that ⁓ ground? When do we say, okay, this is proven. We know this works. We can send this out to the public now.
Graham Ford (26:53)
from the genetics standpoint, as for my thought, initially goes, well, we know genetics matter. We have operational exposure to that. Even on the land base, folks that I talked to, they'll even comment, just they can see it riding down the road. And again, it's just observational.
man, they're, you know, this, this stand here, it's these, these younger plantations, they are, they are rocking and rolling at a rate that I've never seen before. And I say, good, that makes sense because that's what we see in the progeny tests and that we are strategic with our selection, breeding testing strategies. And again, we are seeing gain produced
in the R &D populations and the developmental populations, of course we're gonna see it on the operational landscape. And to your point that it takes time, absolutely. And as it should, in order for us to build a capital of data to make decisions that are going to affect entire rotations for decades on, you know.
innumerable acres, there are no compromises possible in the, again, the tried and true techniques of particularly progeny testing. I really think that that is the backbone of any tree improvement program is the quality of research trial installations, management, measurement, attention to detail there. And again, because your progeny
Your progeny tests are relatively small compared to how many acres they will affect. And, you know, very targeted with the number of trees that are there, but our analytical capabilities now, the, again, the, the, the breeding and testing schemes that are in place now are giving us the best data that we've ever had. And we're actually able to make decisions on orchards operational deployment.
at earlier and earlier ages. And I was having this discussion recently that while we're measuring trees at a young age and not measuring our progeny tests at the end of a rotation is because if we did that, yes, we would have the best possible data, but we would not have gained any time. So how young is too young? Well, we feel like we have a really good hold on that. And those
parental ranks that we see at young ages, they do actually translate and correlate to later age assessments. We've seen that. so again, that positions people with the ability to deploy new material sooner, especially if we shorten tree improvement cycles. And when there are new resources from the tree improvement populations, from the developmental population into the production population,
Paul Jeffreys (29:28)
Right.
Graham Ford (29:46)
Maybe folks may have a little hesitancy about, okay, this is a new family. I've never seen it before. I say, well, let's compare it using the data. Let's always go back to the data. Let's compare it to something that you know, something that you have planted and you've seen it, you've tracked it, you like it. Let's look at, again, side by side, this new family. And then the next best step would be, hey, put it out on your land base somewhere you can watch it.
Maybe you put in some small demo blocks of known family, antiquated family, new family for some side by side contrast.
Paul Jeffreys (30:22)
Right. And what do you say to people that, that will come to you and say, well, how do I know that's going to grow here when it was tested there? And how do I know it's going to be, how do I know that is going to meet my objectives here, say in North Alabama, ⁓ on, on my family land? How Graham, how do okay. I'm going to put this to you like a come to you as the landowner now, Graham. Okay. So you're telling me that this new family is out there and that you've got it available, but.
Graham Ford (30:30)
⁓ yeah.
Mm.
Paul Jeffreys (30:49)
How do I know that's going to perform on my property?
Graham Ford (30:52)
That's a good question. And you sound like you've gotten that question a time or two. I say something along the lines of probably in my head first, say, okay, don't go too into too much detail about genotype by environment interaction, because nobody knows what a type B correlation is. But what I say generally is that, yes, we can't test on all sites, but what we
Paul Jeffreys (30:56)
A lot.
Yes.
Graham Ford (31:15)
do in, for example, North Alabama. What we do in the Piedmont population is that we have progeny trials on a multitude of sites in similar environments, and we'll use those data to guide deployment at scale. And the data that we're using are from sites that are more or less similar to this planting environment. And one of the critical things we pay attention to is adaptability to
minimum winter temperature and the family that we're talking about, the options we're reviewing are adapted to grow here. And also talking about the, I'll probably get into the growth attributes, STEM quality attributes, are they suitable to the markets? And if somebody asks the question, how do I know that it will grow here or how it will perform, I just have to refer them back to the data and to the processes, the
the again, the multitude of trials and data year over year and maybe just say, this is how everyone makes these similar decisions is they look, they utilize the data and make the best possible decision they can. If somebody was talking about a family they weren't familiar with and that's usually a question I get is,
Okay, well, I've never planted this family before. How do I know it's going to do how, you know, how we're, we're discussing and what we're reviewing. I say again, back to the data. All right. Hey, our, our estimates are accurate and let's compare to a family that you're familiar with and see what the differences are. It could be, okay, you've been planting this family for the last five years. You've been really pleased and you can see five year old results for yourself.
They align with what the progeny test data say, know, low incidence of rust. It's the stems are very straight. Growth is exceptional over and well over and above what that previous rotation did and what you're familiar with this new family. Well, again, the data were developed in the same manner to guide us to that other family. Therefore we can have confidence as long as there are enough data points that they were handled correctly, that the
practitioners bringing it to you are attentive to detail and they care about process and discipline of tree improvement. And if there is still any hesitancy, then I'd say at least let's try some. Let's just do, even if it's just a few acres, split a stand in half, plant this old tried and true on one side and this new family on the right. And usually with the new, the initially available material, there's only so much of it to go around anyway.
your option may only be, let's say, 20, 30, 50, 100,000 seedlings. I would absolutely move forward with getting that started and then watch it, track it for yourself.
Paul Jeffreys (34:04)
I get that. I go into that a lot with landowners that I work with. But one of the follow-up statements I have is, yes, let's definitely try this. If you're skeptical about it, let's try it. Let's address the skepticism head on here. And let's try it. But the ⁓ common risk. ⁓
later on down the road, the common review or response I get to that is, man, I should have done the whole thing in that. And sooner, why did you? And then sometimes they'll look at me and go, why didn't you convince me to do that? And all I can come back with is I tried, you know, I showed you the data. I showed you, you know, all of this.
Graham Ford (34:36)
And sooner. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Paul Jeffreys (34:51)
But there is a lot of industry skepticism out there, Graham. And I don't know, you know, to me and you, it's a everyday frustration to you and I, it's an everyday frustration. But, you know, that industry skepticism seems like it it plagues forestry. Even Dr. Zobel back in the day, there's also another quote in one of his publications that, you know, the biggest problem.
facing tree improvement today or it always is this is it's not his exact words. I can't remember exactly but it was basically the skepticism and the reluctancy of the the industry to buy into or to accept tree improvement and genetic improvement in forestry and it's been going on since the beginning of farming in with row crops. ⁓
Graham Ford (35:44)
Yeah.
They, ⁓ at the outset of tree improvement in the United States, you know, in the fifties, it was truly an exercise of faith that it would work because forest trees are perennial. They're, long rotations. They knew it was going to be a long time before they saw whether it actually worked. you know, yeah, we're, we're, I'm, I hear you on
Paul Jeffreys (36:01)
Yes.
Graham Ford (36:09)
skepticism current day. I also though will say that I personally hear much more and buy in and excitement from across again across the industry, large to small. And I'm encouraged by that because I think what's happened is that folks have really seen the results for themselves. Material that
Paul Jeffreys (36:23)
Yes.
Graham Ford (36:32)
was, you know, that's being harvested now is, you know, single family and we can see, see, you know, real differences in again, just the operational impact, the value at harvest for, for the types of stands that you know, again, established 20, 25 years ago and over and above, you know, even further back in time or natural stands. And what I like to say is, well, if you like,
that 25 year old wood that you're getting now, can you even imagine the impact on your operations from the quality of material that you're planting now? Because what you're planting or you have the option to plant now is again, opportune, even above what you're harvesting because of how far tree improvement has come in that period of time.
Paul Jeffreys (37:26)
Right. And I want to share this with you, a third party situation that I had happened last week. had a consulting forester approached me at a meeting and he said ⁓ something to the effect of, you want me to show you what your genetics will do? And of course, when he, when he makes that comment instantly, you know, my spidy senses start going off and I'm like, yes, please.
Graham Ford (37:41)
Mmm.
Paul Jeffreys (37:50)
He turns and shows me a photo of a stand that was planted in 95 prior to controlled pollinated seedlings coming out, but it was planted in 95. It was a super tree seedlings and it was a particular, it was a family that he still had that information, but he told me, he said, Paul, this stand is so loaded with poles that the pole buyer.
Graham Ford (38:08)
Wow.
Paul Jeffreys (38:14)
is taking so long to actually mark and pick the poles out because there's so many per acre. The logger is having to basically harvest and then wait, harvest and wait for the pole buyer to get them all marked. I instantly, said, I've got to see it. You've got to give me the coordinates. So that afternoon I went out and I looked at it and Graham
Graham Ford (38:36)
Hmm.
Paul Jeffreys (38:38)
I was floored and I will share some photos with you, but there I was just floored. I'd never seen trees this straight. they were, you know, but this individual who was probably a skeptic early on approached me and said, let me show you what this is doing. Let me show you what's going on. And in that area where there was a depressed pulp market, this landowner
Graham Ford (38:41)
Please do.
Yeah. Yeah.
Paul Jeffreys (39:05)
was doing very well because of the amount of polls in that area. They have a very good poll market in that area. The amount of polls, 95, made the decision in 95. And now.
Graham Ford (39:16)
Yeah. 1995. Yeah.
Something that reminds me of ⁓ another approach in that if there's skepticism, if there's even just a little bit of, shut, you know, let's talk more. I'm thinking about it. think another way of continuing the conversation is to say, Hey, let's go and look at.
these types of families or now let's go and look at the trees per acre stocking that we're talking about going to now, because that's a whole other conversation, again, a way to address things. you got somebody, it's like, okay, we're trying to update the strategy, move forward, adopt new ideas. Man, hey, I know the...
The conversation in the office is good, but what's really impactful if we go look, go look at something and, and if you've got clients that are, are, you know, they'll open their gates, which is not uncommon. They, ⁓ just say, Hey, let's go look at this family. You know, it's eight, nine, 10 years old. Let's go look at this stocking rate that you're unfamiliar with, but I know where we can go and look at it. And it's, you know, developing and we can really stand in and amongst look up and around.
And that then reinforces the lesson. And usually what we find, we went on a trip recently and we said, Hey, let's go look at something at those particular family. And at this location, they went from 605 to 518 That was a big move for them. We're going to move a little bit. We went and it was a full SIV family, exciting material, nine years old or so we were all standing and saying.
Paul Jeffreys (40:36)
It does. It does.
Graham Ford (40:59)
I like the attributes I'm seeing. Definitely book me some of these seedlings for sure. The other insight at that trip was we should have planted 454 trees per acre, 444 with this particular family. It can sustain at that, you know, that's lower, maybe moderate flexible stocking rate. And that's really what we need to be doing in this market now for sure. So.
Paul Jeffreys (41:24)
So let me ask you this, mean, in your, you know, you're young in your career and you know, you've got, I've got many more years ahead you. You're the next generation coming up. Where do you see the future of forest genetics going? And where do you see this? Like just talking about that, you know, tearing someone out and showing them a stand and saying, look, this was planted at 518.
We've moved on to that. We've changed that. Now we should have done 454. We should have done this. Where do you see it going in the future?
Graham Ford (41:57)
I think it's going to continue along that pattern where we're going to continue to plant fewer trees per acre with the right genetic families and have more control pollinated material, more full sieve families. I really hope that that's where the industry goes. I believe that's what we need in terms of what types of inputs are necessary in order to meet the market challenges, retain flexibility and stand health.
And also on the R &D developmental population front, I see that we're going to continue to bring more operational gain in a shorter period of time. Our tree improvement cycles are shortening from, you know, used to be 25 years, 20 years. Now the NC State population, for example, concluded the fourth cycle in about 14 years, which is really good.
And we're striving in the fifth cycle to shorten that to about 10 to 12, somewhere in there. So that means that what folks that are putting in orchards, managing orchards need to do is they will turn up orchards over in a shorter period of time. And the length of time between what is planted and what's relevant and something new will shorten in time frame.
which is great. Ultimately, all that means for the stakeholders, the end users of genetics resources that they'll have more options over that interval. They'll adopt new approaches and that's ultimately gonna help them to maintain a flexible, again, say flexible, a multifaceted portfolio with, again, a new opportunity to make a better decision next year, more highly informed
decision as we get more data in every year. So I think that's where things could go and will continue as long as we continue to have investment entry improvement and companies engaged. And I truly believe that we're there, that folks will continue to see the results, continue to invest in good material, and that'll drive our engine of innovation to continue to bring new material to the forefront.
Paul Jeffreys (44:03)
So, and I really like the way you put that as far as how we're going and it's not stopping everything. You know, we're going to bring more information, but we're going to back it up with the data. Everything is going to be validated with the data. So, you know, we're coming up on our time limit here and everything, but I just wanted to give you the opportunity, you know, as forward Linkage Group and the work you do, I'm a private landowner. I'm on both sides of it.
So as it gives you the opportunity, know, all right, Dr. Ford, I am going to be reforesting a stand in North Alabama next winter, this coming planting season. What do I need to know from you as a private landowner? What do I need to know about my reforestation? And what do I need to be looking at as when it comes to picking the seedlings for me to reforest with?
Graham Ford (44:55)
Well, it start with what specific stands are we discussing? And it really should be a stand by stand decision. the planning starts way ahead of when we're even thinking about putting seedlings in the ground. The planning really starts even before the timber harvest, I believe. so, say we start with a stand that's recently been harvested, we need to talk about
Again, getting off on the right foot with proper site preparation. And that, again, that depends on the site and how and what technique the site prep unfolds. Is it chemical and mechanical? Is it chemical only? Are we gonna burn? We don't have to burn? Or it'll be applied via backpack hand crew? Are we spraying with a skidder? Are we spraying with a drone?
There's another idea. So we review those options and then initially immediately start talking about genetics inputs. And in order to make the right decisions on genetics, we need to take a look at the market, take a look around in terms of what wood buying facilities are within truck range. And if the landowner has an idea, that's a good thing. We might ask, hey, where did the wood from this previous timber harvest go?
But if they're sitting in a strong wood basket, there's a number of mills around, then that's one dynamic. And we work with what the market will support. And let's say they're in an area with strong chip and saw, saw timber, then that's what we need to focus on. And then I would lean into maximizing stem value over maximizing per acre volume.
and just talk through the reasoning and then ultimately kind of get into, well, if we're going to enact this strategy, then we need these types of genetic families, what's adapted to the planting site. North Alabama is a different environment than South Georgia. So we're gonna be talking about completely different genetic input options. And again,
not being off site is the best way to make sure that you don't have a lot of noise or interaction from the genetics and that you do or that you are going to be able to capitalize on the potential genetic improvement. And then we would again talk to, I would then go to say, know, trust a partner that offers seedlings and say, I have this client who I'm helping. They are located in this County, this area.
We've got really good chip and saw, saw timber markets. We must diminish the proportion of pulpwood. And what do you have that I can plant at this range of trees per acre that's adapted here? And then also talking about the logistics, the contractors available for the right stock type. If we're decreasing trees per acre, think we should discuss.
containerized seedlings ⁓ or very, very good, I've seen actually very good machine planted bare root as an option. It's just, we want to take out any of the survivability issues on the front end because when we're planting fewer trees per acre, we don't have as much buffer and much room for error. So we got to get the seedlings to live. So anyways, we talked with the seedling provider on what they have as far as stock type and genetics.
I say, send me a few options on what you think. I then say, I think this family and this family will work because of my background and what I know to work. And I'll say, I know I like this one and this one, maybe these three or four. And I say, if you've got something, if you've got these, great. If you've got something that you think is better, let me know and we'll talk about it. Had that conversation with the seedling provider, with the genetics.
genetic seedling company and then come back to the landowner and say, here's what I believe will work for us here. And here's what the type of results I believe we can get. How does this all sound to you? I'll offer it as a recommendation and then ultimately the decision is with the landowner. usually we have a lot of good discussion then and we get a plan in place and move forward.
Paul Jeffreys (49:15)
Exactly. And you know, just the value of the genetics, the value of the, you know, the value of the information, that's none of that is hypothetical. It is, you know, when you're measuring value, all of that is measurable. And it is, you know, backed up by very real science and good science, and it has been tested and it has been
proven in the field time and time again. You know, as a private landowner, I can tell you, I want to produce something. I want to produce something on my family property that is going to create value, that is going to be marketable when it is mature and there's going to be something there. So in order to do that, you have got to use an approach of what can I do that is going to
You know, at 30 years, 25, 30 years from now, whatever the market is, I'm going to have something that is marketable and sellable to get me a return on my investment. And that is very real.
Graham Ford (50:18)
I totally agree. the extensive planning on the front end will reduce the chance for some unforeseen result. If you don't know what you're planting, you really can't say what the result might be. If we, you and I, we're working on this project together and we say,
I think we've nailed it in terms of what family or families we need to plant here. Ultimately, as we continue tree improvement, we'll look back and say, man, you know, it's exciting that we have this material in 10 years from now that we can plant, that we planted those couple of families and that was the best then. Now we've moved on, but that stand, those stands are still really working well for us, kind of like that example.
from 1995, that was probably one of the best single family that they could have gotten then. Well, now, on that track, they might plant control pollinated and have even better results instead of, man, don't know what I planted and I don't know what I'm planting. Well, if you don't know what you're planting, it's just a random chance in terms of what the results are gonna be. Well.
Paul Jeffreys (51:07)
Yes.
Graham Ford (51:29)
maybe not a random, I think you actually, it's gonna be closer to kind of the average. It's not gonna be leading industry results.
Paul Jeffreys (51:36)
And that could lead us into a whole nother hour discussion about know what you're planting. I get a lot of comments from landowners that will say, I'll ask them, well, what did you plant with this stand that you're having trouble getting harvested? And they will come back and say, well, I don't know what it was. I just told them I wanted a good tree. Just, just get me a good tree.
Graham Ford (51:55)
Yeah. Yeah. And that might've
been all they could have done at that point in time, we are, fortunately we're not there anymore. We can nail down the package of attributes we want and go and purchase those, those genetics packaged in a seedling and then put them in the ground, let them, you know, express their, their potential in concert with the site resources that we control through silviculture.
Paul Jeffreys (52:22)
Right. Well, thank you very much, Dr. Graham Ford for coming and visiting with us today and sharing your ⁓ insights and, you know, helping us to understand the ever-changing vast field of ⁓ tree improvement and genetics in forestry. You know, if
Graham Ford (52:24)
Yeah, you're welcome.
Paul Jeffreys (52:41)
If you have any more questions or would like to speak with one of our reforestation advisors, please reach out to us or visit us at ArborGen.com and find the reforestation advisor for your territory. And also subscribe to TreeLines for your insights. But I just want to thank you again for taking the time, Dr. Ford, to come and talk to us.
and share with us about the great work that you're doing at Ford Linkage Group. Is there a way that they, if people would like to contact you, is there a way or a method that is best to reach out to you?
Graham Ford (53:19)
Yeah, probably email would be the simplest way of getting up with me. graham@fordlinkagegroup.com. I'd be glad to start the conversation that way.
Paul Jeffreys (53:31)
Right. And if any of you would like to speak with Dr. Ford or would like to speak with one of us again, feel free to reach out to us at any time. Again, thank you for tuning in to the ⁓ ArborGen TreeLines podcast. I'm your host, Paul Jeffreys and we look forward to seeing you on the next episode and have a great day.