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If you could ask God one question what would it be? The “Why God Why” podcast is dedicated to exploring the questions that matter most in your life.
Deep questions often don’t have easy answers. We realize that we won’t solve all the world’s problems in one podcast. Our goal is to share our life experience, interview knowledgeable guests and look at how Jesus might interact with our concerns. We also hope to have a ton of fun in the process because even though the issues might be serious, it doesn’t mean that we always need to be.
No matter where you are on your spiritual journey, we are honored to have you with us!
>> Peter Englert: Welcome to the why god, why? Podcast. My name is Peter Englert. I am here with my cohost and friend, Alyssa Matz. Alyssa, how are you?
>> Alyssa Matz: I'm good. How are you doing?
>> Peter Englert: I'm great. Well, we are brought to you by Browncroft community church. We exist to respond to the questions you don't feel comfortable asking in church. And, we are part of the Lumivaz network. We have an author and professor, doctor, Vincent Vantu. I actually met him at the call and response conference. We'll have him introduce himself in a little bit. But our question is, which culture owns Christianity? It's within our series, questions of our day. Alyssa, I know this question is really important to you. Why don't you tell our listeners why?
>> Alyssa Matz: Yeah, it's very important to me. Coming from a multicultural, multiethnic, ethnic family, I'm always concerned with questions about diversity, race, belonging, culture. Those things are really personal. And even the things that we're going to be talking about today, I think a few questions that we're throwing out there have been asked around my dinner table with my family. So this is very, very important for me on a personal level and even on a professional level, because I'm a social worker. So I'm really interested in these sorts of topics as well. And especially when we can integrate culture in the church or race in the church. It just lights me up inside.
>> Peter Englert: Well, without further ado, that's a great way to kind of get us started. Doctor Bantu, before we jump in head first, why don't you introduce yourselves and just tell us a little bit about your story?
>> Dr. Vincent Bantu: Oh, sure, sure. Well, thanks for having me. Yeah. So, I, reside in St. Louis, Missouri, in the west side. That's where I was born and raised and where, my wife Deanna and I pastor a church, beloved community church. and then I also teach, in a couple of places at, fuller seminary. I teach church history and black church studies. And then also I, direct the Meacham school of hymenot, which is an african american seminary, that is purposed at providing accessible and contextual theological education that's rooted, rooted in and really speaks to the black experience and also, upholds the authority of scripture and really rooted in, a concern and a passion for preaching the gospel.
>> Peter Englert: that's quite the resume to respond to this question. So let's. I just want to get the elephant out in the room, and I think it's really important. So this isn't a new question. But this is a question that seems to have gained more and more traction. and of course, Alyssa's grown up in a mixed race home. You. You've talked a lot about it. Why do you think there's more and more people today asking the question, isn't Christianity the white man's religion?
>> Dr. Vincent Bantu: Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, it's interesting, actually. I mean, again, as a historian, I'm always kind of saying, you know, hey, there's nothing new, like, you know. And I mean, I do agree, though, that in very new ways, people have been struggling with this perception, but actually, it's actually a perception that's been around for a really long time. you know, I would say it started in the fourth century, when Christians in the roman empire were elevated to a certain status. And they even claimed that their emperor Constantine was a Christian, and began to, have these kind of really strong claims, of the roman emperor being God's chosen emperor, and really started to present, Christianity as the roman religion. And then that made the situation really difficult for Christians in the persian empire, which was Rome's rival, and that the persian king started to persecute them because, their faith was seen as the imperial faith of their enemy. And so the idea was that, well, you all are traitors if you're a Christian. So you were going to force you, or try to force you to convert to zoroastrianism, because Christianity is the roman religion, and it's antithetical to persian identity because zoroastrianism is the persian faith. And so that was really one of the first moments in christian history where Christianity was seen as one particular person's thing. Like it, like it almost. It belonged to another culture, and it made it really hard for christians not in that particular culture to be a Christian at the same time. And so, yeah, and it's happened in many ways over, ever since then, over many centuries. But, and it happens in new ways, and there's new communities asking that question even today in the 21st century. but I would say that's really where it started. And, it really is a very important point. I mean, for a lot of us, some, you know, who are Christians, we might think that it's a silly question. And I would also say that especially maybe for many, christians that are from the western world or christians that are white, it might be really hard to understand the gravity of that perception. It might be real easy to dismiss it and say, no, that's silly. Of course, it's not a white man's religion. but I think similarly, people in the white majority culture are also sometimes struggle to identify when anything is predominantly white and to call it as such, and will sometimes call something multiethnic when it's actually, you know, very predominantly white. So sometimes people can, and I think christians of color are sometimes a little bit more attuned to. Actually, we know as christians that Christianity is not a white man's religion. It's not any person's religion. It's, you know, for all people. But we might be a little bit more sensitive or attuned to it. But I can see why people think that, and there are actually some ways that we're actually sending that message, maybe inadvertently, and we know it's not true. But I mean, even just down to white depictions of Jesus, which are everywhere, all over the world and are not questioned and are seen as normative when we know that, people from Israel, in the first century, didn't have blonde hair and blue eyes and white skin, but that's often how he's depicted. Meanwhile, if we had a black or an asian looking Jesus, that would kind of stand out as, oh, that's different. And that's just one of the ways. But whether it's down to, the white male dominance in terms of biblical translation or biblical commentaries or theological textbooks or spiritual devotional material, or in terms of who is in charge and leadership in, dominant christian institutions, there are a lot of different ways that we can see that we are sometimes as Christians, may be inadvertently sending the message that Christianity is a white male enterprise, even if we're not, even if we don't actually believe that we're accidentally sending that message and people are hearing it and picking up on it sometimes better than people who are outside. Because, it's kind of like trying to explain water to a fish. when you explain dominance to the group that is dominant, that it, can be difficult. I once heard someone use the example of, it's like trying to explain to a right handed person like myself what the world is like for a left handed person. And if you're right handed, you just don't think about it because the world is made for you. But if you're left handed, you're thinking about it all the time. and so I think that's why it's really important, because, the last thing I'll say, I know we got other stuff to get into, but the last thing I'll say is that I think, that this is very important. And I think that most people in the world who are not white are very aware of this perception. Now, we know it's not true, but, it's a very real perception that Christianity is white man's religion. And this is very crucial for us to be talking about because, this is, I would say, the single greatest obstacle to the spread of the gospel in the world. So, I mean, I'm a historian, but first and foremost I'm an evangelist, and my heart is actually in missions and in evangelism, which is how I got into church history. and people might think that's weird. no, that can't be the single greatest obstacle. It must be because people don't believe in god or people don't believe, in the miracles of the Bible. But when we look at it, first of all, most people in the world are not white. Most people in the world are african or asian or hispanic or, indigenous. And in the majority of the world, most people believe in god. Actually, atheism is actually more common in western societies, you know, or maybe east asian. But most people in the world, are, believe in the power of the divine. So, you know, people's issue with Christianity, if you travel throughout the majority world, is not, I have a problem with Jesus, or I don't believe that the things the Bible says Jesus did, I don't think a human could have done those things. Or it's not a philosophical objection, but it's a cultural identity objection. It's the idea that that religion is from the west, that's a western thing, and it's antithetical to my identity. So it's a non starter before we even get to the gospel. It's a non starter because that religion doesn't fit my cultural identity. And that is, if you ask missionaries in almost any place in the majority world, that is the number one reason why people even as far, even as much as Christianity is exploding in the majority world and praise god for that. but the difficult thing is that it's often americanized or westernized version of Christianity that gets imported in. And so it's a complicated, gray thing because it's great that churches are growing, but it also is actually making this dynamic even worse. because non Christians who are seeing their fellow people convert to Christianity and all of a sudden start singing songs and dressing and reading books that are very americanized and very westernized, it can exacerbate that perception even further. Oh, and it's not uncommon when you, again, when you talk to missionaries around the world, that it's a common perception that if someone in the majority world converts to Christianity, it's often seen as not just a, conversion to a faith, but it's conversion to a culture. As they become western, they've become americanized. and that's why we really have to work to disentangle that and say no. Like, it's the decision to follow Jesus. is a faith decision. but you can follow Jesus exactly the way he made you culturally and still be a part of your people. You don't have to follow Jesus the way Americans do or the way white people or western people do that. And so that's really why this is so important. It's really for, the purposes of the gospel.
>> Alyssa Matz: M that's so good. I already feel like I've learned so much, I could just sit here and keep listening all day. I was doing some research before this podcast. I just searched the question, is Christianity the white man's religion? And so many articles came up, I couldn't even read through them all because there was just so much. It seems like this is a topic that people are talking about, and I think, especially younger people in my generation, they want to know what's, up with Christianity, and why are all these, white people pushing their religion on us? Why are all the leaders of Christianity white, male? Just those kind of things, like, culturally relevant questions. And I think it's important as christians to dive into that, even if it's a little awkward or hard. because, like I said, there's so many people writing about it, different opinions out there. So I appreciate your perspective, and I'm just wondering for you, it seems like you've done a lot of research on this topic yourself. What made you, you said personal evangelism, but I want to go a little bit deeper. What made you extra interested in studying culture and Christianity?
>> Dr. Vincent Bantu: Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I would just share, you know, from my personal background. I mentioned I grew up in St. Louis, Missouri, which is a very racially segregated city. I mean, it's like dramatically segregated. There's literally a street that separates the whole city, and everything on this side of that street is black and predominantly low income, and everything south of that street is predominantly white. and many places is extremely wealthy. So there's like this racial and stark economic division cut by one street. And I actually grew up about a mile north of that street. in a low income african american community. I grew up in a biracial household. My dad is black, my mom's white. And, and so I grew up, in this kind of community. But I actually went to church on the other side. Oh, it was only 2 miles away, but so it was about a mile south of that line. So I would go 2 miles away to go to church, but it would be in a whole different world and a different planet, really. and my church, they did a lot of great things. In fact, they were ministering and doing outreach in our community. That's how we got connected. My, my mom and my brother and I started going to this church, and, and, and it is a great church. It instilled in me a passion for evangelism, but it also, in a lot of ways, inadvertently did communicate this message that christianity is a white man's religion. and so I wrestled with that, and I had a passion for evangelism. And I would try to bring my friends from school, from the neighborhood to my church, and they wouldn't want to come, and they'd be like, no, I'm not good. And I could tell they didn't fit in. But again, I, as a young person, couldn't separate christianity from culture. So the ways in which we were different from the culture of this church, I didn't associate with race or ethnicity or culture. I was associating it with christianity. And so in my mind, I have to be like these people, not because they're. I wasn't thinking of it because they're white, but because they're christians. And that's what christians act like. And I didn't have a concept for, you know, what it looked like to be a christian, but to be from the hood to, you know, you know, to be able to follow Jesus the way that we, my people were. And so, and so that really, I struggled with that and felt like who I was culturally was just completely wrong and I have to convert culturally. And really, it was, you know, when I went to. When I was graduating high school, going to college, I, had an experience with the Lord where. And the Lord used, key people. you know, one shout out I would give, in particular, is, to actually, well, two shout outs I would give is number one, I came into contact with many native american christian theologians who were talking about issues of contextualization, and I started hearing about their books and reading them. And, one of the most influential was Richard Twist, who was a close mentor of mine and has some great books out where he was talking about his own experience of feeling like, because of the ways in which his Lakota people were taught by western missionaries that their culture was demonic, that that's what he felt. And many Native Americans feel, struggle with feeling that way. And were told that, literally told by missionaries that their culture, their language, everything was demonic and they had to convert. And it was the idea of kill the Indian and save the man. and, then, so that was really empowering. And then also, really around that time, that was when you had kind of this surge in really great christian hip hop. And that was when I shout out to people like the cross movement and others, where I saw people who looked and sounded and acted like people from my community, but they were worshipping Jesus and they were preaching the gospel. And I had no. I didn't know that that was possible. I didn't know that. And so that really opened my eyes. And god really spoke to me, especially through acts chapter ten, where god was speaking to Peter and said, kill and eat. And Peter said, I've never eaten anything unclean. And god told Peter, don't call unclean what I have made clean. And he was preparing him for the advent of the gospel among the gentiles. And that god would accept the gentiles and even not only fold them into the people of god, but also even accept them culturally as they were. Like, they don't have to be circumcised. And that those kind of things really spoke to me. And I felt like, oh, wow, I can be who I am culturally. I don't have to culturally assimilate, to someone else's culture. But, yes, there's things about my culture and every culture that need to be changed and transformed, but I don't have to become someone else. And that was really empowering for me. And so I got really interested in issues of the relationship between culture and faith and cultural identity and Christianity and contextualization. And there's a lot of great books, and I was just eating all of that up. But when I went to seminary, my wife and I, right after we got married, we went to seminary, and I took a trip to Egypt. And in this trip, I learned about the early history of the church in Africa. And that was really, that was pivotal for me because first of all, I was, I had, by that time, studied theology and was really getting into it. I was like, why? Why did anybody tell me about this? You know, I've studied this stuff and, and, I only learned about western or european church history. So again, that's another way in which we're still exacerbating this, this dynamic where in so many classes, you know, in colleges and seminaries, we learn so much about european and white north american theology and history, and then non white, non western stuff kind of gets tacked on at the end of the class or it's kind of a peripheral thing, and there's this kind of european center. And so that's another way. But I really was taken by that and really felt a passion and a call to it because, I felt like that was a missing component and at least in my church and in my circles, and I'm finding in many circles that I teach and minister in that it's. That most, many people don't know that Christianity, was in Africa and in Asia and spread all over those continents long before the 16th century, long before european colonialism. I didn't know that. And I just, you know, up until that point. And I just felt like this could be a helpful complement to these conversations around freeing people up, to own the gospel story according to their own culture. I think it could help be a helpful complement to that, especially if we know that Christianity did not come from the west to the rest in all cases, but it actually went straight out of Jerusalem in the first century and spread into other places and stayed there to this day in ways that we often don't know about or not even aware of. And so it helps us understand that Christianity is not becoming a global religion, as sometimes people are in the habit of saying that, in the 20th century, late 19th and 20th century, Christianity started exploding into so many other new parts of the world, and to the point where we have this habit of saying that Christianity is becoming global. But this history shows us that Christianity, Christianity has always been global, and it's never stopped being global.
>> Peter Englert: So I actually have two follow up questions. One's kind of, technical, theological, and then I'll ask the other one, which is modern day today. But, why don't you go deeper into the theologians and the theological ideas specifically in Africa that are a gift in the first, second, and even up till today, of what, in your studies in history and then today, what Africa specifically has brought to Christianity that every person needs to know?
>> Dr. Vincent Bantu: Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. yeah, I mean, the gospel started in Africa, in the sense that Jesus and Mary and Joseph stayed in Africa as refugees already in the New Testament. And we see that there was an African who helped Jesus carry the cross. And at Pentecost there are Egyptians and North Africans mentioned. And then also a so called ethiopian eunuch who was actually a cushite in acts chapter eight. So we see, Africans all over the Old and the New Testament, as part of the integral people of god. And after the time of the New Testament, Christianity continued to spread all over Africa. In Egypt, in North Africa, in Nubia and Ethiopia. I think the interesting thing is that in the period called late antiquity, you know, in the first, you know, six or seven centuries of the common era, these four major kind of regions like North Africa, what we now call Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, Libya, and then Egypt, kind of collectively, you know, now Arabs called it the Maghreb, or, the Romans called it kind of just, you know, Roman Africa. But, that region, as well as Egypt and Nubia and Ethiopia, these were the major kingdoms of the continent that we now call Africa in that whole time period. Because other, you know, really, you know, some of the other known civilizations didn't develop till later. and so in the, you know, in the kind of the Middle Ages. And so in the period of late antiquity, in the period of the early church, all of these regions had christians in them. North Africa, Egypt, Nubia, Ethiopia. you know, and in the case of Nubia and Ethiopia, these were. These were independent african kingdoms, unlike Egypt and North Africa, which were under the Roman Empire. But these independent african kingdoms embrace Christianity as their imperial religion. Ethiopia in the Nubia, in the. So Christianity was not just present in Africa, but it was actually the dominant faith. By the end of late antiquity, it was the dominant faith all over the continent, of Africa, what we now call Africa. And I think it's really important to point out that it came in freely, that there was. It didn't come in through colonialism or slavery or any of these other narratives that we're used to thinking about in the 16th century going forward. But it came in freely. it wasn't enforced, and it developed in really unique ways. And some of the most important theologians were from North Africa, like Tertullian and Augustine, who were from North Africa, Perpetua and Felicity, who, actually were martyrs. And, Perpetua being one of the first christian female authors who wrote, her own before, wrote most of her own, passion story before she was martyred. And then in Egypt, also, you had people like origen and Clement of Alexandria, Athanasius Cyril of Alexandria. Some of the most foundational theologians in all of, Christianity in the roman empire were actually from Egypt. And then also Christianity started to become articulated in the indigenous egyptian language and coptic, especially through monastic figures like Pachomius, and Shenouda of a tree. Shenouda is actually, the most prolific author in the history of the egyptian language. And during that phase, it was called coptic. And that's the same language family as going all the way back to hieroglyphics. And then, it evolved later into Coptic. And Shenouda is the greatest writer in the history of the egyptian language in any of its phases. And he was a christian theologian and a monastic leader, like Anthony the great and all the desert fathers and mothers. monasticism was not unique to Egypt, but it was actually really promoted, christian monasticism. The most well known people were actually from Egypt and later on in Europe. As Christianity spread in later periods in Europe, in the, fifth and 6th and 7th and 8th centuries, it largely spread, spread through m. European monasticism, which people like Columbanus and Benedict and, others, they actually, imitated the monastic styles that they saw in Egypt that went back to the. So these are, just some of the contributions. But also in Nubia, it was also a christian kingdom as well. And in fact, most of the nubian literature that you can study from this time period is actually christian in nature. And they constructed beautiful paintings and architecture that, again, studying medieval nubia from the 6th up until the 16th century, it's almost all christian material. And then in Ethiopia also, there's a very rich, indigenous christian tradition that some scholars have even called a traditional african religion, in the sense that ethiopian Christianity is so unique theologically. It, has its own biblical canon and its own worship style, and, you know, and its own, theological perspective and using even its own, Alphabet, using an indigenous african Alphabet, that in the classical language called ge'iz, which is actually one of the only african writing systems in use in the world. and Ethiopia is also actually the only predominantly black country that has never been colonized. and it's also been a predominantly christian nation from the, you know, from the fourth century, and also has produced some of the first authors in human history, that come out of sub saharan Africa. And, you know, one of them actually, one of the first prose authors, the first one actually to be attested is, his name is Georgia of Sagla. And I'm actually working on the first english translation of his theological, treatise, which is like, super long, and it's taken me a long time. but it's also, you know, it's also. It covers all of christian theology, but from an ethiopian perspective. And also Ethiopia produced some of the earliest biographies of african women, of sub saharan african women, starting in the 15th and going up, even into the modern period. But, again, many of the earliest biographies of sub saharan african women or black women, actually came out of Ethiopia. People like Christo Samra or Walata Petros, who was actually a freedom fighter who fought against, attempted european colonialism. and so, yeah, I mean, those are just a few of the examples. I'd be here all day talking about all of them. But, but, yeah, there's, there's so much rich contribution. And the last thing I'll just say about, to that question is that, I just think it's really important to note that if someone wants to study african history, like between in the last 2000 years, but especially if you're talking about in the first thousand, years, from the first to the 10th century, it is literally impossible to do that without studying Christianity, because most of the archaeological, the literary and all of the evidence that comes out of Africa is christian in nature. and, Christianity literally produced buildings and churches and monasteries and homes. And the literature is predominantly christian in nature. And most of the literature that comes out of Africa in the first millennium is predominantly christians, written by christians in african languages, in ge'ez, or in nubian, or in coptic, or even in greek and Latin, in Egypt and North Africa. And so Christianity literally produced african civilization. It literally enhanced african civilization, and, as the dominant faith, in Africa.
>> Alyssa Matz: Wow. So what I heard you say just then is all the contributions that people from Africa have contributed to Christianity. The prevalence of Christianity in Africa, the origins of Christianity in Africa. But a little bit ago, we were talking about how, now Christianity is perceived as a white person's religion or a western religion. So how did we get there from those beginnings and from that origin? What happened to change the world's perception of this? Or maybe not the world's, but at least I'll speak for America. The american perception of Christianity. What happened? How did we get here?
>> Dr. Vincent Bantu: Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think there's a lot in my book, a multitude of all peoples. I actually answer that question in like a whole chapter, or at least attempt to, because I think it's a complicated answer. But one thing I'll just throw out one thing in particular that I think is really important, for people to know about, and just a little church history, is that. And this isn't the only answer, but I think it's one important factor. And in the year 451, there was a council, a, church council, in the roman empire. I always say that because, again, even that's another way that we, I think, exacerbate this idea that Christianity is a western religion. Is when we. When we say things like, well, the early church did this or that, or the. Or this early church council. And I always will say, well, which one? Right? Because there were lots of councils and there were other empires that were not beholden to, you know, people probably people have heard of the council of Nicaea, right? A lot of people have heard of that. That was a and people say that was the first church council. Well, no, it wasn't, actually. there were other councils in other parts of the roman empire. But there also. There were other councils in other empires. That were not, beholden at all to what the bishops in the roman empire were deciding. So there wasn't like any one. So I think it's always good to specify what we're talking about. So the council of Chalcedon, was a council in the roman empire, an imperial council in the roman empire in the year 451. And the issue that people were debating at that time. Was the best way to talk about the reality of Jesus being fully god and fully human at the same time. And how is it that Jesus is both fully god and fully human? And what's the best way to phrase that or to capture that in words? And the council of Chalcedon said that the best way to capture that is to say that Jesus is one person in two natures. And that was in greek terms. So saying he's one hoopostasis, but he has two physics. And even that that way of thinking is rooted in a greco roman, hellenistic way of thinking of personhood and nature. And even the distinctions between those, And at that council, right after that council, many of the Christians, especially in Egypt and later in most of Africa, as well as in Syria and most of what we now call the Middle east, rejected that council as heretical. And much of that was because it wasn't because they didn't believe that Jesus was fully god and fully human. In fact, they have always affirmed that. in the fifth century, in the year 451 and even up to today, but for them, it was that language that they had a problem with, that, Jesus is one person with two natures to them that didn't make sense. And most importantly, that wasn't in the Bible. Right. So this council was promoting this particular formula as if it was like, you know, orthodoxy, but it didn't, that language was not in scripture. And so they didn't feel that they were beholden to that language. They were condemned as heretics by the kind of dominant roman church centered in Constantinople. And they, you know, saw them. They kind of saw each other as heretics. Now, meanwhile, there was another very large church in the persian empire that eventually, later spread into China and the Silk Road. Along the Silk road in central Asia, and in India. And they had even yet a whole other christology or other way of talking about. So actually, around the year 451 and following in that time period, there was actually three major branches of Christianity. And it was along christological lines. But the kind or the version that became dominant in the continent we now call Europe was the chalcedonian version. That's where the greek and catholic communities and then later european Protestants, developed out of that. But the Christians that were in what we now call Africa and Asia did not have that same christology. And because of that, they were rejected as heretics and even persecuted. That Roman, bishops in Constantinople and Rome would send priests along with soldiers, with the king of the roman emperor's support, to go into places like Egypt and Syria and Arabia, where most of the people didn't agree with that theology and would oppress them and kidnap their priests and their bishops and try to impose their own. So this was the first major schism in the history of the church, before the protestant reformation in the 16th century, before the east west schism in Europe, between Eastern orthodox and, Latin speaking Catholics, in the 11th century. This was the first major split in the church. But unlike those other ones, it was largely along geographical, cultural lines, whereas you had one camp that was mainly in Europe and then you had another camp that was mainly in Africa and the Middle east, and they split. And the power laid with the european side of that argument. And so that is the reason why so many of the christians that came out of those places who held to this other faith that their belief was Jesus is one person with one nature. And a lot of that had to do with their own kind, of cultural context and their own desire to say that Jesus is one nature. But they still fully believe that Jesus is fully god and fully human. But they were condemned as heretics. And even a lot of church historians today will still refer to them as heretics, even though they're not. If you read their writings themselves, if you read the writings of people like Timothy either, or Benjamin of Alexandria or Severus Antioch, the, or even theologians from the persian church, the Church of the east, where it's erroneously often called Nestorians, like Narsai or bye bye the Great. These were people who were deeply orthodox. They believed in the full divinity and full humanity of Jesus. They didn't just, like, they just didn't like saying there's two natures in Jesus, because to them that was like saying there's two different jesuses. So I know there's like a lot of history and a lot of theological stuff, but, you know, that is really, it's still, I think, important to know just a little bit about, because it was extremely consequential. and it really split the. Because oftentimes I'll ask people, and, you know, if we had a live audience right now, I could ask everybody, you know, raise your hand if you've ever heard of Thomas Aquinas, if, you've just heard the name, or if you've ever heard the name Martin Luther, or if you've ever heard the name Jonathan Edwards. And everyone's raising their hands, right? and then I say, okay, well, raise your hand if you've ever heard of Baba the great, or if you've ever heard of Petros, or if you've ever heard of Zaryako. And no one's raising their hand. I'm like, well, that's exactly, that's exactly, an effect of this dynamic that it's because of this split that there's a whole host of theologians and christians that were unjustifiably condemned as heretics. And that's why we don't know even their names or are not familiar with them. And yet we are familiar with western theologians, because they were on that side of that particular split. and I think that's really not the only moment, but I think that's one of the most important moments in history. that really fed into this idea that Christianity is a western thing. Because up until that moment, there were Christians in every part of the ancient world and nobody associated Christianity with being just one thing. Now, I mentioned earlier, it was becoming, that perception was growing because of the kind of prominence of Christianity in the Roman Empire and the Christians in the persian empire started to be persecuted in the fourth century. But then the fifth century at that council of Chalcedon, that was really. That, I think the moment that really sealed the deal, and really led to the diminishment, and the persecution of Christians in Africa and in the continents of Asia, and then also led to the kind of rise in power of european Christianity.
>> Peter Englert: So I actually want to come back. I was going to ask you this question, but now I think it's kind of a perfect time because you set the stage with the history, but also the schismatic. and so I think that there's historical background, which you're a history professor, but, I want to kind of make it modern. And maybe this isn't the best example, but I just kind of want to hear from you. So, I was listening to a podcast with Doctor Dwight Radcliffe from Fuller, seminary, and he was talking about his relationship with hip hop music. And you brought up hip hop, and you talked about the cross movement, and I listened to cross movement as a kid. but in hearing all of this, because the only word that I can think of with this history is complexity. there was a complex theology. There was misunderstanding, culturally. But where I want you to kind of focus is, Doctor Radcliffe talked a lot about the black church's relationship with hip hop music. On one hand, it swears, and so should we listen to it? On the other hand, it does have this cultural value, that is so important to. And just. I would encourage all of our listeners, I forget what the Fuller podcast that he was on. I encourage them all to listen to it. But, like, in thinking about hip hop and the history that you just said, is that like a modern day example of the complexity of. I'm a Christian. Hip hop is part of the culture, and I'm really responding to it. How do I mold all these things together? Because it sounds like with those three separate councils, in a very many way, the relationship with hip hop is kind of the same way, in the sense of, I don't want to put theology and hip hop on the same way, but there's theology through hip hop. And I just think it might be a helpful example. I could be wrong, but we can always edit it out. But is that kind of an example of the complexity of. I'm a Christian. I value hip hop, not just hip hop that comes from individuals that are christian. And how do I bring this into the church to kind of relate history but also apply theology? Does that make sense?
>> Dr. Vincent Bantu: That makes a lot of sense, and I do think that, that's a great example because, I would say that a large part of this tension that happened even that we were just talking about in the year 451 and following was cultural, right. That that when you talk about, you know, one person having two natures and he's one person, but there's two natures. Like that's a culturally specific way of thinking about personhood. And that's fine. Like that. I mean, you know, as I mentioned, the people on the other side of that debate, they condemned them as heretics. They condemned the chalcedonians as heretics. And this other side is called me aphasites. Because they said one nature. Jesus has one nature, but they're often erroneously called monophysites, which they consider pejorative. But yeah, the me aphasites, in what we now call Africa and Asia, they also condemn the chalcedonians, right. The dominant european church, as heretical. But to be fair, I don't think their theology was heretical either. they were trying to make sense in their cultural context. Of, How Jesus is both human and divine. And he's one person. And in that, you know, Greco Roman cultural, context. And in the greek language, you can be one person and have multiple natures. But, in other languages it doesn't work out the same way. and personhood and nature. And it's articulated in different ways. And so I think the problem was that the sides were not understanding each other. And then condemning each other as heretics. But then when one side has more power to enforce their, you know, their will, then I think that's what makes the difference. And I think that's even we can relate that to today where we'll talk about. Well, anybody. Any group can be prejudiced or any group can think ignorant things, but right, but systemic, injustice is not just about being ignorant or having false thoughts about somebody. But it's having the power to enact that and to systematize it and put it into policies. and that's a lot of what happened in the fifth century. but I think that this really speaks to the need for us to understand the distinctions between culture and Christianity. or timeless, universal truths. Like Jesus is Lord and the Bible is his word and cultural values, right? Like one culture bows, the other one shakes hands. And like, you know. And so I think that's where we have to understand that there are some things that are right or wrong. And there's other things that are just culturally different. And we have to understand the difference. and I think that, for example, with hip hop, that's a great example because sometimes people will look at it and say, well, that's a bad thing. It's from the world. but, all of us are from the world. We are cultured beings and god steps into our culture and also transforms them. And so, it's not as simple as saying, well, we just need to get away from culture or, step away from it. Because, while that's true in some senses, we also can't fully, and also, more importantly, god doesn't call us to completely step away. That's why Jesus enters into history and takes on jewish, flesh and steps into a particular culture. But also, again, as we mentioned earlier, the moment at acts ten and acts 15 also speaks to cultural, adoption, that there are aspects in which people can be who themselves. And so, if god can help Peter get to a point where he understands that actually this food isn't unclean, again, we have to understand how difficult that would have been for him as a pious jew. Understanding, that we don't eat certain things, and the Torah actually calls people to be killed if they violate the holiness statute. So it's understandable why you say, I have nothing that's impure. And, god says, don't call impure, what I've made clean. And so, in the same way, we can't look at any of our cultures and hip hop included, and say, well, that's just completely bad because there is aspects of God's image implanted in every culture and there's ways in which we as believers can do what god called us to do in the first place, which he said he put humanity in the garden to work it and to cultivate it. So god intended for culture. now, because of sin, we've gotten off track and we create culture that's not pleasing to god. So there's a lot of hip hop that's not pleasing to god, god. But there's a lot of every culture that's not pleasing to god. But that doesn't mean we completely reject it. But as believers, we work to redeem it, which is a multi layered process of embrace and transformation and rejection. And so we reject things that are evil, that are not right, even if they are part of our culture. We transform those elements that may have some good in them, but need to be redirected towards the glorification of Jesus. And then we embrace those aspects of culture. Culture, that are in line with and really amplify the greatness of god. And the gospel message. And so I think that's what people who are part of the hip hop culture are called to do. And also, I think any particular culture, that's what we're called to do.
>> Alyssa Matz: So what I'm hearing you say is it's not about becoming a, Christian. And then all of a sudden, everyone looks the same and has the same culture and does the same things. But rather, when groups of people become christian, their culture still shines through that and god is still glorified, whether it looks like hip hop music or country music or classical music. And god is glorified through those things. And it's not about the culture at all. It's about god first and foremost. But we can't feel like Christianity forces us into a certain box or looks a certain way or belongs to a certain culture. Is that what I'm, kind of hearing you say?
>> Dr. Vincent Bantu: That's exactly right. And I think that's an important point to highlight because I think a lot of times we will think as Christians that, culture doesn't matter or those things don't matter. And I understand what people are trying to say when they say that. And I do understand that that might come from a certain understanding of what Paul said in Galatians three, where he says there's no jew or gentile, but I mean, he also said there's no man or woman. Right. But I would think that we as Christians would mainly understand that where you're men and women and when you get saved, you don't cease to be a man or a woman. you're still a man or a woman, because men and women are made the image of god and they reflect the image of god in unique ways. And Paul's trying to make a point, though, right? He's saying god doesn't have favoritism or there's no hierarchy. He doesn't favor men over women or jew over gentile. But he's not saying that those identities cease to exist. because he still talks about Jews and gentiles. And in fact, in Romans, he says he has a passion for his people. He says his race, his genos, and he's talking about the jews. And so he understands that he's part of a culture and gentiles are part of another culture. And so we still are going to be who we are culturally. And, this is what god has always called us to be. god, has always intended for there to be diversity, just as god himself is diverse, that he's father, son, and Holy Spirit, eternally diverse. That he's, three in one, and he's not more one than the other. And they're not separate, but they're also not the same. The father is not the son, the son's not the spirit, the spirit's not the father, but they're all god. And so out of his eternal diversity, he creates a world that's diverse. He didn't want it to be the same. you know, he creates this beautiful creation that all looks so different. Different animals, different topography and different humans. And he called them to spread, fill the earth and to spread out. And at Babel, people were doing the opposite. They were staying put and instead trying to build a tower to the heavens. And god is saying, no, I want the opposite. I don't want you to stay together and try to move up. I want you to move out and cultivate the earth. So he pushes them into that. But that doesn't mean, as some christians will think, that, oh, see, like, difference came out of a curse at Babel. No, it wasn't. That wasn't when difference arrived. because in Genesis ten, there's already different nations and different people groups, but also that was god, pushing those people into diversity. When. When they were, in their arrogance, they were culturally homogenous. When god intervened, then they went out, then they were culturally diverse. And we see the redemption of that in acts two, where the holy spirit falls again on every nation, tribe and tongue. And. And the gospel is preached to the apostles, but it's in every language, so we see all the different languages, being magnified. god chooses to be glorified through diversity. And then we see that consummation in revelation seven, where John looked up and saw every nation, tribe and tongue. So when god. When John looked up and saw the heavenly multitude, he didn't see people dressed the same. well, you just see them dressed same. They're wearing white robes. But he didn't see them all with the same skin color. They weren't all speaking the same language. They weren't all in the same ethnic group. They were different. He saw difference. He said, oh, those are those people, and those are that people, and those are we. Difference is a part of how god intends for us to live. And so, we, rather than thinking that we can avoid our identity, which we can, we need to be seeking through the power of the Holy Spirit and according to the word of god, redeem and transform our identities, not to leave them, but to become who god always intended for them to be.
>> Peter Englert: So this has been really, really rich, and we're probably going to come to a close with a few more questions, but where something I wanna kinda talk to you about is, I'm thinking of two types of listeners. So I'm a white man. and so I'm thinking about the long term christians that even asking the question, who owns Christianity? Some of them, they've been Christian. They're like, of course no one owns Christianity. But as we've dug deeper, I think it represents that this question is a very open question today. How would you, number one, want the long term christians who might. This question makes them uncomfortable. That might feel offensive. It might feel really hard. But also, how would you want people that maybe are doubting and deconstructing and maybe aren't christians yet? Because you said evangelism. The number one barrier in your experience is this question of who owns Christianity? Isn't Christianity a white man's religion? Religion. Why don't you talk to those two groups of, how can we better engage this conversation together?
>> Dr. Vincent Bantu: Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry. Can you repeat the question one more time?
>> Peter Englert: So we got two groups of people, m and maybe a bunch of people in between. You have the long term christians that might get offended by this question. It's really hard for them because they read the Bible, but kind of what you talked about, the fish in the water, so to speak. But then we have people that individuals that are deconstructing and they're doubting. Alyssa comes from a mixed race background. This is a conversation at her dinner table. How can these speak to both individuals on how to handle it better, but also give us a vision of the gospel with it, if that makes sense.
>> Dr. Vincent Bantu: Yeah, absolutely. I would say that, just like how you framed it, where you have christians coming from different places. I think we see that in the New Testament where you have Jews and gentiles, but they're all christians, and they have to figure out how to live together as one new humanity. I think that we see, I think if I were to speak to maybe that first group where people are even offended by the questions, or they find it difficult dealing with issues of race or ethnicity or culture or issues of justice, I would just encourage them the way that Paul encouraged the corinthian church, church where he is encouraging them to, you know, to really bear with, and to really empower their brothers and sisters in Christ that are struggling and with oppression in ways, specifically, you know, he's orchestrating, you know, this partnership between, you know, between them and the church in Jerusalem who are suffering and dealing with, different issues. And he calls them to really, to, remember that we're one body. and in fact, he says god has put the body together to where we need one another, and he's even giving greater honor to the parts that have lacked it. meanwhile, the presentable parts don't need special treatment. And so I think that, they, you know, I would encourage them to remember that if one part of the body is suffering, then the entire body is suffering with it. And it's, And so we can't just dismiss what an entire group or multiple entire groups are saying they're dealing with just because it's hard for me to deal with, or I don't want to accept or acknowledge it. But as a believer, as a follower of Christ, I cannot just dismiss what my brothers and sisters in Christ are going through because I don't like hearing it, or it makes it difficult for me because I personally would rather not have to think about it. and so I think that's where we have to bear with one another. As Paul also says in Galatians six, bear one another's burdens and in so doing, fulfilling the law of Christ. And I think that for other christians who are coming from a different perspective, where they're very aware, attuned to these issues, you know, I would really encourage them, in a similar way that the word of god does of, again, similarly, as it did for me and as it does for, believers who were also being marginalized or who felt, even in the New Testament, that they themselves were unclean, that god showed up to Cornelius and said, your prayers have been received, and salvation showed up to his house, that I think that. That, we should be encouraged to know that god is at work among our people. And remember, that was before Cornelius actually heard the gospel from Peter. And so god is already at work among our people, in all people, even before being saved and before hearing the gospel. And there's aspects of our culture that are good and beautiful, and we need to continue to celebrate those. And there's aspects we need to transform, but also we need to be. To celebrate who we are. And again, not call unclean what god has called clean and not feel that. That we have to change who we are culturally to become like another person. yes, we have to become more like Christ, and yes, we can learn from each other, but we don't have to become like someone else or another people group. And god has made us who we are on purpose to be proud of that and to share that with other people, and to continue to speak truth, when truth needs to be spoken.
>> Peter Englert: What about individuals that aren't Christians yet that are listening to it? Maybe they're significant, doubts and deconstructing. What would you say to them?
>> Dr. Vincent Bantu: Yeah, that's a great question to anybody that's listening that, does not identify as a Christian, I, would, implore you to please read, the Bible, and to really hear the message of Jesus, to be saved by grace through faith, that he is the one way truth in the life, and that his message and his offer of grace and love is available to everyone, regardless of who you are, regardless of what you've done or your past or your questions or your doubts that his love is available to you. And I, and kind of in line with what we've been talking about, I especially want to underline something that maybe you haven't heard before, which is that Christianity is for everybody. It does not belong to any one culture. It's not a white man's religion, it's not any one person's religion, but it is for all people. And, it embraces all people as they are culturally. It embraces everyone's identity. So if you have ever heard about examples of Christianity not doing that, or Christianity actually, supporting or a version of christianity, being used to colonize or to oppress or to enslave or to force other people groups to assimilate, I want to encourage you that that is not Christianity, that is imperialism. and Frederick Douglass said it best, in his autobiography. He said, between the Christianity of Christ and the Christianity of this land, I recognize the widest possible difference so wide that to be the friend of the one is to be the enemy of the other. And so I, want to encourage you as a Christian, that Christianity is not meant, to be a force for imperialism or colonialism, but actually, to be embracing, and celebrating the diversity with which god has created humanity, and that there's a place at the table for everyone, including you.
>> Alyssa Matz: That's something I read when I was quickly researching before this podcast, I clicked on an article and read some common rebukes about Christianity being the white man's religion. And it seemed like what this author concluded was that the people who say that Christianity is a white man's religion, so I want nothing to do with it. Usually their objections have more to do with things that they've seen people do, specifically white people, in Christianity, the things that they've done that have been harmful, to people of color. Rather than them having actual issues with Christianity itself as a religion or as a faith or the practices that happen within Christianity. And more so with the things that Christianity has been used to propel, like you said, examples of, oppression and things like that. That.
>> Dr. Vincent Bantu: Mm Mm Yeah, that's right.
>> Alyssa Matz: So I think we're going to wrap it up soon. Right, Peter?
>> Peter Englert: You closed it, so. Well, I just.
>> Alyssa Matz: No, I'm not. I wasn't trying to close. I just.
>> Peter Englert: Oh, no, no.
>> Alyssa Matz: That's something I read.
>> Peter Englert: It was great.
>> Alyssa Matz: I do have a question though.
>> Peter Englert: No, no.
>> Alyssa Matz: Go right ahead, if you don't mind. Just imagine with me for a second that everybody gets it. people understand that Christianity doesn't belong to one culture or the other. while considering the nuances of culture. And how that plays into Christianity and into life as a whole. What does the world look like if we embrace that idea?
>> Dr. Vincent Bantu: yeah, I think that's a great question. I mean, I think we see it in scripture that in acts two. Where we see a multitude of believers. Who are not defined by one political identity or one ethnic group, and yet are composed of every ethnic group where everyone feels at home, where everyone is actually completed. And they're all preaching the same gospel message. And glorifying the same Jesus. But they look radically culturally different from each other. And they are characterized by. By their love. And by their commitment to Jesus and the gospel. And to justice. And to empowering the oppressed. And being in the margins with the people that the world has discarded. And that is actually where they are loving and serving. and I think that's really what we already see in the book of acts, is the kingdom of god. And we can continue to see it now, unfortunately, sometimes not in all of the context that that claim the name of Jesus. But I think that's what we'll, see a lot more of. Where people can look, at a particular church, and feel at home culturally. That it really, represents who they are and everyone feels at home culturally in the church.
>> Alyssa Matz: I love that.
>> Peter Englert: Well, let's do some final remarks. so here's the deal. myself and Alyssa will give some final thoughts. And then, you know, doctor Bantu, you get to close us up. And you can correct any heresy that we have. Does that sound good?
>> Dr. Vincent Bantu: Oh, sure. Yeah. I'm ready to excommunicate.
>> Peter Englert: Do you want to go first or do you want me?
>> Alyssa Matz: I can try. I really don't know even how to close it. And I think that that's probably how I'll close it, is that it's a complicated and complex issue with a lot of history, a lot of nuance. culture is not always easy to understand. It takes effort to learn any culture. There's, history involved. And so, yeah, Christianity is for everybody, but we have to understand the nuance of culture, because if we don't, then we're not truly understanding people, and that's not the best way to love them. And Jesus calls us to love people. So to love people, that means stepping into the uncomfortability. It means stepping into perspectives that are different than ours. It means listening, even if we don't agree or don't see the same perspective. And so, yeah, I think I would just urge people to do that. No matter who you are, where you are, step into other people's shoes and try to hear their perspective. and if we can do that, then maybe we can create a more diverse, culturally, culturally diverse, group of christianities. We can look like the world that you imagine, there. Doctor van, too.
>> Peter Englert: No, I love that as kind of an invitation and a call. And, the first thing I'd say, to individuals listening to this podcast, buy books and listen to podcasts by Doctor Bantu. Listen to the jude three podcast. Like, just start to become aware of the nuances to this question because I think what Doctor Bantu did in 45 minutes is almost a semester class that you probably should take it fuller, to know that, Christianity's history is global. And I was thinking about this. I used to work for a seminary and I would find myself in various different spaces, from liturgical to, just very modern churches. And so it was just this beautiful to enjoy other contexts of Christianity. And one of my favorite events that I got to go to was I got to represent the seminary at the, I think it's the upstate New York, ame church conference. And, it was just a wonderful experience. To be in a different culture and to see the values of the gospel that transcend culture is that we, we can maintain who god created us to be with our experiences. But then the gospel, the love of Christ, the listening and conversing and eating together in hospitality, that's the future vision, is that our tables are full of people that have different backgrounds, that aren't even christians, that are asking this question, that it's legitimately there there's certain things with the gospel that transcend culture. And to be the recipient of that, I mean, I was the only white guy there. I was one of maybe two. And to see the gospel at work, and I've been in other contexts like that, but that was the first one that came to my mind of Christianity is so beautiful and it's so powerful, and these conversations are so messy, but they're messy because Christianity is beautiful. Jesus is. I mean, if we didn't even talk about the theologians, you spent five minutes talking about how in the Bible, there are so many individuals from Africa that are essential to the story of Jesus. We can't dismiss that. I mean, if acts ten alone, but it's not just acts ten. So I think, Doctor Bantu, what you've done for us and our listeners, whether they follow Jesus or not, is you've given us the vision of global Christianity. How that will is always the vision, and it's not just something new. So I just want to thank you for that.
>> Dr. Vincent Bantu: No, I appreciate it. Yes, thank you for the work you guys are doing and for having me on, and I'd love to do that. share anytime.
>> Peter Englert: do you have any final thoughts or anything you want to add?
>> Dr. Vincent Bantu: Yeah, I think no other. I think maybe the only last short thing I would add is, if, you know, again, if someone is not, not a follow of Jesus, I want to encourage you that the church of Jesus Christ, that the gospel of Jesus Christ is open to all people. And it does not call people to assimilate culturally, but it actually embraces and fulfills who we are culturally, and then also those who are believers. And yet we might not be as familiar, and we've kind of all been in some ways, affected by a very westernized, telling of christian story. I would encourage you to really try to get, more familiar. you know, maybe if you would have raised your hands at the european names, but with the african, asian names, like, wait, who are these people? I would encourage you to read more and learn more, about, you know, again, you know, you can check out any of my books or, any resources and you can, but I would encourage you to follow the footnotes and really read some of these people in their own writings. you know, would be, and become more familiar with how God's household has always been diverse and that, so that we're really. We are equally shaped and formed spiritually, by leaders from different cultures and also different across different periods of church history.
>> Peter Englert: Doctor m. Bantu thank you so much for your generosity of time. if people want to find you, where's the best place to find you?
>> Dr. Vincent Bantu: Yeah, I think, you know, I'm on Facebook, and Twitter and Instagram. and, then, also, you know, on Facebook, it's just Vince Bantu and, Twitter, and Instagram is mom hair. Underscore Bantu. m a m m a t r, underscore Bantu. And, on Instagram. But then on Twitter, it's, Bantu hustle. b a n t u, h u s, capital stl. And then e, lowercase e. And then, also you can check me out on our, the Meacham School of Hymenop page, meachum.org, and find out about events we're doing. We just took a trip to Ethiopia. We have a theology conference coming up this fall. And then also, you can check me out on the Fuller website, Fuller theological Seminary, and see some of the great events we got going on there as well.
>> Peter Englert: Thank you so much, doctor Bantu. If you want to find us, we are@ygoodwidepodcast.com you can get this and a, bunch of other episodes responding to questions you don't feel comfortable asking in church. Thank you so much.