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Do bisexual people exist, is everyone bisexual?
BiCurean takes typically combative topics and teaches them to play nice. Our view is that the mainstream reactionary rhetoric divides us and only helps those invested in the status quo. We seek to find answers beyond the most obvious. Join hosts Aicila and Erik as they dig into topics ranging from social and political to geeky and fun. Erik and Aicila are looking for the "BiCurean Moment" a point where contradictions meet.
2018 0802 To Bi or Not to Bi
Welcome to the BiCurean Podcast. I'm Aicila and I am Erik. And this week we are going to talk about "To Bi or Not To Bi". So we've actually been researching this one for a couple of weeks, %HESITATION in between even research for other shows and stuff like that. It all started when %HESITATION an article came out %HESITATION several several weeks ago now. %HESITATION that stated unequivocally all women are fundamentally bisexual. Which brought up a question for a long time there was definitely this mythology that bisexual people don't exist. So do they exist or are all women and lots of men bisexual? Like what's- what's the- what's- what's happening here? We're penduluming. So it and to qualify you- you brought up that myth. I hadn't heard that as much that bisexuality didn't exist. The thing that's not a myth that I can definitely confirm is that when you say L. G. B. T. most people are not acknowledging the "B". %HESITATION I've helped out with a couple of local and national groups that are working on bi- awareness. %HESITATION PAVES is one of them run locally here in Denver. %HESITATION Because it's very obvious to people in that community that they are not thought of and respected. So- Well it's an invisible majority. There was a study done in- outside of San Francisco by the Human Relations Commission several years ago that talked about the ways in which bi-people tend to show the effects of stigma at higher rates. Higher rates of depression, higher rates of alcoholism. because of isolation. And- and that's where the- the mythology around bi- people don't exist is. It's a phase like not really bi. Or they won't pick. Or they won't pick. And a lot of times the assumption is that if a man says that he's bisexual actually he's gay. And he's just occasionally willing to sleep with women or hide that he's actually gay by sleeping with women. Right like there's a perception that it's a deception. And the same thing with women. Only it's the reverse- that women aren't really bi they're just messing around with women until they find the right man. Right or doing it for attention. Yeah. That's the one that I've heard propagated the most is that most women are bi because it gets them the attention from men that they were looking for. Yeah and and so that that is where the the myth of like bisexual people don't exist kind of comes from. Is- is there- they are there are a phase or it's about attention and it's not really where they're going to land or whatever. Right. %HESITATION But to get back to it so of course that there is all of that but as with most things related to sexuality in general %HESITATION just spends on who you ask. Somebody's gonna say you know there is no such thing as bi people. Somebody else is gonna say "oh everyone's everyone's bi". Right. %HESITATION It's- it's way more based on opinion. So when there's an actual study done, whether it's complete B. S. or not as this one kind of caught our attention. %HESITATION You know I- I do pay attention to that because it's at least interesting to know and see that people are first off acknowledging bisexuality. And then you can get into analyzing whatever outlandish or non outlandish claims they're making. So in this case %HESITATION Well so I'll put a couple things out there. Most studies on sexuality, frequently I should say, studies on sexuality have been geared towards behavior and self reporting. So they'll- they'll do %HESITATION you know sort of a study in terms of they'll ask people questions about their behavior. Cause they can't really assess identity. It's a little too slippery. So I might identify as straight however my behavior indicates I'm bisexual because I've had sexual encounters with women. And then there's a stigma about admitting that so if you're asking for self reporting- right- you're not necessarily guaranteed to get honest answers. So this particular study and it's one of a few that have been done in the last few years was measuring sexual responsiveness from a biological perspective. So what they did was they took the participants and they hooked them up to machines and they measured I guess the the two major indicators of sexual response are pupil dilation and blood flow to the genitals. They measured those things while showing them sexual activity of and naked pictures that there were a couple different study so I'm I think squishing them in my head. %HESITATION But they showed sexual activity of men with men; men with women; women with women- and then measured their sexual response to watching this activity. And what did they find? It's very interesting. They found that the women who identified as heterosexual were actually re- they were sexually responsive to most of the different %HESITATION types of behavior. They didn't really seem to have a gender preference in terms of their biological response. So it was more of the behavior they were watching not who was doing it. That was the- one of those studies the conclusion was that heterosexual women seemed to hetero- heterosexually identified women seemed to be more influenced by the activity. So seeing sex. Right. Between whoever. Right. And and they called it - I love this term. - They called it something that was their- their body in some way deemed sexually relevant. Which is a key point cause we were actually talking about this right before we hit record on the podcast. %HESITATION Where- where it really kind of got off the rails I think on this was the idea of sexually relevant doesn't necessarily imply attraction. Right when so this is this term I had never heard before and I really appreciated it was actually another article. This %HESITATION person did a review of the study. And I really appreciated a lot of the things that she brought to the table. And so I'm gonna just read part of this. %HESITATION She said, The study fails to take into account a few factors that might complicate it's all women are a tiny bit gay hypothesis. It's interesting she doesn't say bi. Right. Which %HESITATION you know there you go. %HESITATION The first is that women exhibit arousal non- concordance, which is a sexy way of saying there is only a ten percent overlap between what a woman's genitals or pupils are doing and her subjective level of arousal. So how she feels about in terms of attraction. And I'm- I'm wondering, you know, do people even realize you know like there's increased blood flow or whatever. I mean it might just feel like a reaction but if you don't have an attraction you may not label it as like oh I'm really into what that person's doing or that person. Yeah I mean it's not it's a you know our bodies do things. You know we get sad for no reason. So this is it so I get this sexually relevant thing that are are you know there's some part of us that's designed to react to a sexual environment. And interestingly so with men a sexual non concordance is only fifty percent. Which is that fifty percent of the time when a man has a sexual response or erection, it's due to something that that man finds sexually attractive or appealing. The other half the time it's a "willy nilly willy". I know you want to get quote in. I really wanted to say that. I love her. And you know I- I think a little part of me is actually surprised that it's not ninety ten in the opposite direction. and it's only fifty/ fifty for men because %HESITATION you know. An- and- and it's another myth that's gonna propagated that all men just sort of want to pounce whenever- yeah- you see anything remotely interesting. %HESITATION I have met men like that but I've also met men plenty of men that are not like that. I- it's an interesting thing that the average is a fifty/ fifty shot that they're having a response because they're interested versus not. Versus sexual relevance. Well I feel like man are also really taught to act any time they have a response. They you know- that means something. Oh I thank god they're not in my estimation. %HESITATION I think there's- I think men are taught to not necessarily act every time they have a response. Okay that's fair but they're taught to notice it and think it's real. Like I don't think that men are taught to- Oh it feels real. Right. I'm just kidding. Okay I don't know. It's not necessarily- I have certainly seen plenty of things in the world that seemed attractive or whatever and I'll have that like oooh that's interesting. %HESITATION I don't act on them. I don't tend to. Like I said I've met plenty of guys who do. %HESITATION Like they just don't have that filter. That- that filter of like is this appropriate, am I actually interested in this? Or did she just walk by at an angle or he just walked by at an angle that looked very attractive. And now all of a sudden I think I just met the love of my life. It- it really depends. And again that's why I feel like some of these tests are so so subjective and so many people have such different responses. I can tell you, you know being on a work trip at a major retailer with the vast array of you know the guy who probably wasn't gonna come back to the hotel room with our group because that's how he rolled every night. He was gonna find something interesting to do with somebody else. Versus the other people that were hanging out around me saying how how does he do that. That's I could never live like that, I could just never do that. Yeah I think that more in terms of just sort of cultural trends, I do think that women are taught to suppress and ignore anything that feels like desire. And men are taught maybe that they have to restrain it not necessarily that they have to pretend it doesn't exist. Right well and then you're especially taught it if you're identifying as straight you are not allowed to have those feelings about another man. So there's that. And I do think that women %HESITATION it's less frowned upon in society to be a bi- woman. Which is why I think a test %HESITATION this ah study that was done was even allowed to exist because of course we can actually investigate just how bi all women who clearly are bi. There were some studies, and I didn't put them in the notes, that were about man and studying male bisexuality. And they were there pretty interesting in terms of- There's a lot of reproach if you actually even acknowledge that so even if a man was having that sort of attraction they wouldn't tell their friends probably not even their doctor or some stranger doing a study. No- If we're talking self reporting though. No it was the same thing- same style right- the pupil dilation and- and the- but men can always get away with the claim like they were just having sex of course it was into it. Yeah. Doesn't matter who it was, it was sex. I think and that's what I'm saying is like that I think that that fifty fifty thing for guys right is in some of it I mean not having male parts myself I do think that men are forced to confront it a little more you know. I think- I think men have a more noticeable arousal. Yeah. And so there's something going on there that that forces them to be more present with what's actually happening for them. But I remember as a teenager yeah it was something that I had to acknowledge like I am having this response. What does this mean? I mean everybody jokes about that, you know, What what does this what do these feelings in my body mean? But it really is a question that you're asking like does this mean I'm attracted to somebody? Is this just hormones? What's what does it all mean? But you know a a an and to the to the point of the study, so eventually they get to the point where they're like well if every woman is aroused by whatever they see clearly they can't be that picky about who they're with. Right. So it's a it's a hopeful thing for all those lonely hearts out there. Right. So the- so I found so to go back to the sexual non- concordance thing I thought that was really interesting in terms of recognizing that there are these distinctions. There's what you find actually attractive and appealing. There's what's sexually relevant to you which your body may respond to. And- and then there's no response at all. Right. I mean I just see so many flaws in the whole concept of the test. Like we've proven, I think in plenty of other tests that seeing sex and it- it the a lot of this discussion reminds me of one of my favorite shows, Coupling. And there's so many different things in there and I recommend our listeners if you haven't watched, it's a British show. Don't watch the American version they did a terrible job. It's a BBC show called Coupling. And they- they reference a lot of these things and in some ways you know a lot of this just feels like things that they use to kind of make fun of on that show all the time. One that's not as relevant is the "Giggle Loop". So you start to think about a laugh and then you try to repress it, which of course makes you wanna laugh a little bit more. And then of course the more that you try to repress it, that's when you burst out and laugh inappropriately at a funeral or something. Right. I think though that there's something to be said about human mentality and- and just biology in general that when we see sex we're going to have a response. I think the only relevant question to ask in that situation is do you find either of the two people you are watching have sex right now attractive? Is it the man? Is it the woman? Is it one of the two men? Is it one of the two women? Is it just that you're having a response to what you're seeing. Like measuring blood flow that's like did your pupils dilate when the lights went out? Like there'd be a problem if they didn't. Right well and that and that's I think in some ways we are talking about is exactly it. They were they were looking for something that was not as subjective. So your pupils dilate in a certain way and your blood flow increases in a certain way. But that means that your body is having a physiological response, it's not arousal. It's arousal in the strictest scientific biological sense. And it's the only way to counter the self reporting studies that are a little bit slippier because they deal so much with social stigma. So a lot of like a lot of studies on attraction and arousal and identification and orientation are people describing their experiences. And that is so completely so they take- It's very subject- It's very subjective. But I totally get it. But I I think sexuality is subjective. That's not the show we're doing right now. So we can do that right, now we're doing them the To Bi or Not to Bi. Well but that's I mean that sort of is along the lines of the point here that this this test made the argument that all women are- Wait no- slightly bisexual- Doctor Reiger- Reiger. I'm gonna read his quote or do you want to read it? Now you read it. It's not it doesn't say willy nilly willy so it's not nearly as fun. So I'm willing to share it. Even though the majority of women identify as straight our research clearly demonstrates that when it comes to what turns them on they either bisexual or gay never straight. That's ridiculous. It's offensive actually but he said that. In a world where I would like to continue to fight for bi sexual rights and recognition that's just offensive. It is. And the- there's another point- Again because of the physiological response not necessarily actually asking if any of those people would actually go and do anything with the people they're assuming that they're obviously clearly attracted to in this test. Right. And so one of the things that commentator said in turn- in response to this study Doctor Savin Williams warned that cultural expectations of sexuality need to change in order for people to be more comfortable with who they're attracted to. Which goes to my point earlier. That we are we are for a variety of reasons of you know of every gender taught to suppress certain kinds of attractions. And I don't know that anyone wants to live in a world where everybody just acts on whatever attraction they have. I think that some form of discretion and restraint- Agreed- is is desired. However there's a really big difference between repressing actually was happening for you and acknowledging and then making some choices around it. Right. I mean you know I I I had you print out something that that we'll have in the notes. %HESITATION But if- if anybody's not familiar with the Kinsey scale. Which is to say that bi is not just like an on off switch or not bi or straight or gay. You can be straight or gay and just identify that way and act accordingly. Again back- back to the point we made earlier that it's it's more in what you were doing and had been doing and want to be doing that defines that. But you know bi sexuality can be on a scale. You can be a little bi. You can be a little attracted to the same sex but majority attracted to the opposite sex. You can be the opposite of that too. You can be all the way at the other end of the scale, where you're pretty much gay or lesbian but not entirely closed down to the opposite sex. And I think that's where the real problem comes in because on one hand I want to tear the the study apart especially the especially with what they said about it and and you know the conclusions they drew. %HESITATION Because it is offensive. But on the other hand, you know it gives a great opportunity to map out that you know maybe one or two of the study participants can acknowledge and feel more comfortable that yeah you know they're not totally opposed to sleeping with the same sex. Well- versus you know me being totally not opposed to sleeping with the opposite sex. And interestingly studies on %HESITATION men in general and lesbians are that their %HESITATION sexual responses to what is sexually relevant and their identity tend to match more. So if someone identifies as a lesbian their likelihood of having a sexual response to their preferred gender is much higher than if somebody identifies as a heterosexual woman. So question that I have around that and it comes back to the cultural expectation part is if you are gay you probably had to go through some kind of process to acknowledge that. And determine what you find attractive because- Possibly dating the wrong sex. Might yeah might have dated somebody who is not a match for that reason. And- and if you are hetero sexual that's kind of what everybody expects you to do. So it might also be that there's a large chunk of women out there who have never gone through that process. For they didn't have any reason to. They met somebody who was some attractive to them. Got together with them. They're happy in that situation. And they could also be with women. Just doesn't hasn't come up for them. Right. And so I think that there's- there's something to that as well. That not having not having to go through that deconstruction process might mean that there are there are folks who kinda live there not really knowing that those options exist for them. Cause they don't really need them. They're fine, right? Right. Th- the- the default programming works. They don't need another option. And- and they said generally men are that way as well. Although they've been doing more studies and this one woman the Doctor Savin- Williams says that they're starting to recognize that men and aspects male sex- sexuality are also exist on a continuum. Right. There's been an acceptance that women's sexuality is very fluid and- and that there was this perception that men were very rigid. They were either gay or they were straight. There is no movement and now they're starting to understand that that's not actually true. Right. And I mean I can just tell you that from %HESITATION being in polyamorous communities and stuff for many years %HESITATION that bisexual men were always much more accepted. Bisexuality in swinger culture is very frowned upon. %HESITATION Women are encouraged to be bisexual, men are not allowed. %HESITATION And just in society in general. %HESITATION Yeah I mean there's also another aspect to this. And I think this has made it harder for bi- people. Which is you're only as bi as what you're dating. Right. And at the end of it all you know if if you're a bi man in a monogamous relationship with a man, you are gay. Right. If you are a bi- man in a monogamous relationship with a woman, you are heterosexual. We're not talking about what you might do next or what you had done previously. And that actually is a lot of the cause of why bisexuality is I think construed the way that it is. So you know at the end of the day for me it does come down to a more of just acknowledging and letting people be comfortable in how they want to identify. But it's a you know you can identify trans and and we're up in arms about being able to do that and pick which bathroom you go into and all of that right now. But we don't have that freedom when it comes to identifying is bi. Right. So Robyn Ochs is a pretty outspoken bi-activist. And one of the things that she talks about is that she didn't come out as gay even though she's been in a long term monogamous relationship with a woman because it required that she dismiss all of her previous attractions to man as some sort of false consciousness. And that for her that that concept of gay or straight versus bisexual doesn't capture all of the space in between. Right. And Ochs says, "I acknowledge that I have in myself the potential to be attracted romantically and or sexually to people of more than one sex and or gender. Not necessarily at the same time, not necessarily in the same way and not necessarily to the same degree." Right. And I just thought that was really important I know for me that you know when I was working in the LGBT community and I actually had to I spoke on a marriage it was a pretty big of advocate for recognition of same sex relationships legally. And part of it for me was having been in relationships with men and with women and the ways in which my relationships with with women were considered to be less legitimate by my family, by my community, by the law. And they weren't less legitimate to me. And yet I and and I felt a sense of in some ways I felt a sense of betrayal towards these relationships when I started dating men. In that I could have this legitimacy and and it was very very painful to me that it was just suddenly invisible. Like you're saying like I'm I'm dating a man and so suddenly my relationships with women were no longer real. And that wasn't true. That that's not how I felt. Yeah. And so I feel like that the ways in which becomes invisible is is very demoralizing. It is. And- and like I said you know and that's why on one hand I applaud a study that's trying to bring more of a light in to bisexuals and and and that sort of thing. But this one is just ridiculous in that it's making this outlandish claim that %HESITATION anyone who gets remotely aroused by essentially watching porn is bi there's no other option or gay. And they they said you know they're either bi or gay. And it the some of it is you know that larger question of what you were talking about earlier and I shut you down. And that's something that we could do a show on around like the sort of the ways in which sexuality like what's happening for people for real has to be camp boxed in. And and it's easy to say oh that's mainstream culture or that's straight culture that's conservative culture. And I can tell you that's not true. When I was in a lesbian relationship in a very you know sort of quote unquote progressive lesbian community I actually didn't feel like I could acknowledge that I was a bisexual woman. I mean that's the thing I I and I think that's what a lot of people don't get if you are hetero normative or gay or lesbian. Was when you don't realize that the people around you that would or possibly do identify as bi you don't have a home. If you know it reminds me of a joke from Family Guy. And I've seen this joke a thousand times in a thousand different ways but this one for some reason always just runs through my head. There's an episode where one of the characters is actually portrayed as black well the other character is white and the baby on the show %HESITATION comes out being half black and half white. And proclaims loudly this is perfect now I'll be accepted by both. And right and that's not how it goes. That's not ever how it goes. And so if I had any recommendation for anybody in their community, go find somebody who's bi and tell them that it's okay. Because realistically nothing else about society whether they're hanging out in the gay culture or the straight culture or the you know whatever polyamorous culture whatever their in, probably none of it feels like home. And that is the real plight that bisexual people are up against right now. No it's true and I was trying to find I was trying to track this down and I couldn't. So I'm gonna talk about it I apologize and give you no actual references to it. I went to a conference several years ago and there was this woman who was working on a study that was kind of mapping the challenges that bisexual people face. And kind of mapping them to the challenges that biracial people face in that they they aren't really welcome in either community. And they have to claim the community they're in in order to be accepted. And that and so %HESTITATION what they talked about with that was kind of what they call choice points. So I'm hanging out with you and we're talking and I realize that you assume that I'm straight and I'm quote unquote just like you. And then do I do that awkward thing where I somehow sort of try to bring this other part of me in which generally just doesn't feel good to anybody. However not saying anything feels sort of oddly deceptive or a little bit like I'm you know cutting a part of myself off. And so it creates this constant feeling of anxiety for people who exist in this in between world. And it's very similar this woman's uh study she was doing she was at University of Minneapolis it's very similar to what biracial people go through in terms of not really feeling at home in either the either race that they identify with. We often say black and white but it could be Mexican and black or Indian and white or whatever. They they end up feeling like there's no place for them instead of them more places. Right. And- and it's the same kind of thing you know for bi people because it doesn't matter if you're just a little gay or just a little straight. You're equally out of touch with whatever group that you're trying to you know interact with. Whether it's the heteronormative or the gay community or whatever. Yeah. So I think that your suggestion of you know being more open and encouraging people to know they're okay. And I think also not making the assumption that where someone is at right now is where they've always been. That could allow people to feel more of a sense of comfort. I mean your story very clearly identifies that you you you you have both sides of that history in your history. Yeah and it's it's been interesting to me you know you mentioned that sometimes I'll talk about things I don't really think about it it's my life and people are very confused. They don't, they're like where did that come from? People don't understand how you can be married to one partner talking about a completely different life. Yeah. But that is your reality and you know you've acknowledged it and I'm I'm proud of you for not necessarily hiding that or feeling weird about it. But you know and and the only times I've ever brought it up is when people just sort of I watch their eyes get wide like who do you mean you were married to that person. Yeah. And I do- It's not even a judgement thing just mostly surprise I think. Right I don't and that's I think the other part is that we want to believe I think often we want the world to be simpler than it is. So we wanna believe we can know something about someone when we look at them. And I know that I don't fit those stereotypes. Yeah but most people don't. No most people don't. Most people aren't open about it because they can't be. Right and so at any rate %HESITATION our- I would say our conclusion is the study is bogus- well that's not true the study wasn't bogus however the- Just it as with most studies didn't have enough information to draw any real conclusions so everybody just took what information they could from it and said they're attracted, there were people having sex, they must just like all of them, they're all bi. Well and it it it ignored it ignored the difference between sexual relevance and actual sexual attraction. And I think the other thing that you pointed out which is our our choice around our actions. You know I can I can be attracted to m- many people and I can make choices about it.So it doesn't mean I'm gay or straight. Well considering some of the women were attracted to chimpanzees having sex. Yes. Clearly we don't need to be %HESITATION discussing whether or not they're all into bestiality right? But it was the act of having sex. That to me is what really tore that whole study apart was %HESITATION essentially they had a sexual reaction to watching sex. Right. I'm pretty sure that's normal and doesn't actually say anything about their sexuality. So To Bi and Not to Bi that's our conclusion. Welcome to the BiCurean Momen. So you had one this week. Yeah well recently in May okay actually to be accurate in March of 2017 Nevada ratified- Can you guess what it is? You can because I told you. Yeah I already know the answer to this. They were the first state in forty years to ratify the equal rights amendment. Which you know we all thought maybe was dead right? Right so I- Do they have a grassroots movement for that? Or what what caused that? So interestingly what occurred was- Cause it's not in the news anywhere I mean plenty of things are and that hasn't been. And what it yeah it's gotten some attention but not a ton. So Madison do you remember him, super dead couple hundred years ago James Madison right? So previously amendments to the constitution didn't actually have an expiration date. So you like get it through the process of Congress and the Senate goes to the states to be ratified and then if it's ratified it goes through. So Madison had written some kind of tax thing. And it went through a couple years ago. And so then all the feminist groups and the ERA groups were like wait a minute why did we get stuck with at time limit? And so this that's when this movement started a few years ago %HESITATION when that went through it was like well maybe we could make this happen. And so some of the local groups in different states started working to get their states to ratify. So Nevada ratified in March of 2017. Illinois was the thirty seventh state to ratify. They ratified in May of 2018. Okay. %HESITATION A little note the first version of the equal rights amendment was introduced in 1923. Wow. Yeah so they've been trying to do this for a little while. And %HESITATION the original one in 1972 was given a ten year deadline. So technically 1982 it was supposed to be all dead. Right. %HESITATION However because of the thing with Madison, what what these groups did was they started saying well let's see if we can re- revive this. And there's a expectation that they could lobby Congress to overturn the deadline. Gotcha. And then sort of accept the ratifications that have occurred. So %HESITATION and the the objections to it when it was over when it was sort of prevented. %HESITATION The objections were a fear of same sex marriage, which is already legal and a fear of women serving in combat, which they do. Yeah like we've sort of ended up back end solving those problems. So so that the two boogie men that were put up as the oh if this happens these horrible things will occur. Those things have already occurred. So there's a there's a possibility that it could actually go through. And you know there I guess you know there's some objections like people are like why do we need that, you know what's the point? And %HESITATION it really just comes down to affirming sort of an equity that then allows for that to trickle down in a variety of ways. I think it would be able to be very useful for equal pay claims and that sort of thing. So so I'm hopeful. %HESITATION The states that are left are not necessarily - I think we just need one or two more. And then they're not what I would call like super promising however-it could happen. Stranger things have happened. Stranger things have happened. So I was kind of I was kind of excited about it. And also for me that that the BiCurean moment of that was sort of this like wait a minute you know it's like you were saying this on the news I thought I was dead but- Right like when you brought it up to me I was like is that still a thing. It's still a thing. I just didn't even realize it was so. Yeah I didn't either and so I'm I'm excited to see what happens and I kind of appreciate that you know that someone's trying. It did floor me when I was looking into it that the first one was introduced in 1923 like there's a little bit of and yeah so there you go. Well that is yes that is very interesting and %HESITATION we should definitely keep an eye on that maybe they'll be some more news about that it's a it's interesting that it's not dead so. My by carrying moment was a little more light hearted and yet as we were talking about right before we started recording huddling not light hearted and a lot of ways yeah it took me a few weeks to see Incredibles to it's a fantastic movie I really enjoyed it I loved the first movie I love the second one but man like talk about a trip back you know fourteen years after the first one came out just to be back in that head space and see all of the things that actually tackle in that movie about gender roles on the expectations and all of that the way that they're actually able to make some you know some of these assumptions about gender roles and and approach them in a way of like you know it's okay to be the big strong man trying to provide for your family it's okay to be a mom it's okay you know to be an awkward teenager all of that stuff and they kept it all going in the second one now and there was even a little bit more complexity to it arm if anyone familiar with the characters Alaska girl is you know the the mom in the family and and the hero and then in the second movie we can see this from the coming attractions of spoilers here she ends up being the one to go out and try to bring back acceptance of super powered people in society because they decided she'd make a great face for it you know and and all of the complexities with that as well as you know some of the other characters %HESITATION you know there there's some issues with a brother and a sister and the the brother is sort of kind of pushed aside the sister kind of his conniving because she feels like he's gotten all the attention so many different layers to it it was really fantastic and I would highly recommend even if you're not into the animated kid movie genre I would say Incredibles Incredibles two maybe two of the most intensely adult oriented kids movies I've seen in a long time now I know that they're really well so I invite you to go and check those out seconded if you have ideas feedback thoughts please find us on social media by carrying on Facebook Twitter and Instagram or give us a call at seven two zero five zero seven seven three zero nine or you can email podcast and by carrying dot com