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Starting: January 2024
This weekly podcast is unique in higher education. All sides of Issues, challenges, and opportunities from across higher education are presented and discussed in an entertaining style and format.
Dr. Gary Stocker, Dr. Joseph Pellerito, and their guests review, discuss, and debate the issues of the day in higher education.
Gary (00:03.502)
It's College Counterpoints for March 7th, 2024. Welcome back. My name is Gary Stocker. And before I bring in my co -host today, I've got to make note of the fact that colleges keep closing. So last week it was Notre Dame College in Ohio. And interestingly, you'll be stunned to hear that I did this. I went to the 2022 audited financial statement for Notre Dame College and the auditors, and I've chosen not to name them.
made no reference to something called a going concern. That's accountants speak for, it ain't gonna make it. This organization isn't gonna make it. And auditors are supposed to note the fact that if they don't think a business or college has the resources to survive. And so my favorite podcast host is Joseph Pellerito Jr. Dr. Pellerito, good day to you, sir.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (00:43.883)
Good day, Gary. It's good to see you. And yeah, but I'm wondering why is it that you always lead off with bad stories, my friend? Can't you say something constructive, maybe right out of the bat for just one time?
Gary (01:08.75)
Well, sadly, you're not the first to suggest that. And it's fair. And I know I have an attitude. I try and make it constructive and positive, but our industry is in turmoil. And I try and make those points out. But I do want to say, and I share this in a lot of the media that I put out, Joseph, and that is I have something that I put together called my College Viability Manifesto. Let me read just a couple of them, because I truly believe these, Joseph. College is good. It's really, really good. Go if you can.
Number two, graduation is better. And number three, some colleges will survive, Joseph. Some colleges will not survive, but many will. And then finally, just five of the 10, your FAFSA, we all know about the FAFSA, tells colleges about your finances and the college viability app shows you a college's finances. Joseph, that's fair, isn't it?
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (02:04.504)
Yeah, I can get behind all those Gary and in joking aside, you know, you and I talk offline and. We're both big proponents of informed decision making. We both have kids and adult kids and so I look at it from both a sort of dad standpoint, but I'm also a college administrator as well. And so I want.
not only my adult children to make informed decisions, but I also want my prospective students to be able to do the same. So you and I are on the same page with that for sure.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (02:44.263)
All right, well, let's talk about today's first topic, which is really interesting. Today, we're gonna talk about diversity, equity, and inclusion, which is actually a formula. DEI is only part of the formula, the full formula, Gary. Do you know what the full formula is? I don't know if you do. The full formula is DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion, equals belonging.
Gary (03:03.854)
I don't, Tristan, I don't.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (03:11.91)
Now for a quantoid like yourself, a numbers guy, that may be pretty Pollyanna -ish sounding, but to me it means something. The problem today though, Gary, is that diversity, and we'll use diversity for short speak here for DEI equals belonging, is really diversity with a small d. It's been politicized to the point where people are, many people, not all,
aren't even able to discuss it without taking sides and then taking up arms and then there's, you know, we know the rest. There's no real meaningful dialogue. From my side of, or from my perspective, I guess I should say, because it's really not a side, it's about being all in on the notion that DEI, which equals belonging, is good.
And here's the thing that I like to tell my students and others that'll listen. And I know I'll only have your attention for about 10 more seconds, so I'm trying to get to my point. You know, when I listen to a song, Gary, I want a full octave, multiple octaves of notes. I don't want a single note that is the same note. I want variety. When I walk into an ice cream store,
31 flavors Baskin Robbins one of my favorite places. I don't want 31 versions of vanilla Gary I want I want the I want to get blue moons sometimes so DEI is good and We should be supporting it
Gary (04:50.03)
ice cream, Joseph, is filling, whether it's flavor one or flavor 31. And that's really the point. I'm going to back up for a second. Of course, I've never heard of DEI before. Sarcasm is oozing out of my mouth. It's trite. It's talked about way too often. And you mentioned meaningful dialogue. And I know the big premise behind you and I doing college counterpoints is to really to discuss in a proper tone with respect for each other's positions.
on things like DEI, really everything we talk about. We really want to model in college counterpoints the way discussion could take place. And you're wrong on this one. You know you're wrong because our country was founded, our country was founded on individualism. And it's individual that matters, not any kind of particular categorization. It doesn't matter which of the 31, if one of them fills me, if one of them gets the job done, what Joseph does it matter what?
the flavor is.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (05:49.475)
Well, you know, Gary, it's interesting. Every group has their own unique dynamics, and that's a good thing. And I think what we're talking about, we may be saying the same thing, I'm not sure, but I want to know my students' story. I want to know each student's unique story. And I want to also know, I want them to know that I understand that one size doesn't fit all, that sometimes I need to modify my approach, my messaging, my communication.
and also the kind of resources that I extend to those individuals. So, you know, everybody is unique. And so I think we're agreeing on this. But the problem is when we start shutting down DEI efforts, especially at the university level, like we've done in Texas, when it's done in a way that precludes students from accessing needed resources, then I have a concern about it. And so, you know, I can point to,
a great example of a school that I think has got DEI right. Roosevelt University, Little Roosevelt, which is little but mighty. They have two campuses, one in Chicago, one in Schaumburg, Illinois. And I think it's wonderful, the program that they've got going and the messaging they have going. They have a wonderful website. It's beautiful. And, you know, I'm really excited when I see schools that are making a deliberate effort to...
Understand that one size doesn't fit all. So DEI is important. We should be talking about it. We got to be moving forward on this, not shutting it down.
Gary (07:25.166)
You make good points, for sure. And you almost always do, even though when I lovingly tease you. Let me give you an example. And I have been talking with folks about trying to find an independent contractor to help me market the college viability app. I don't care which of the 31 flavors they are. I need them to show me that they can market on LinkedIn and on Facebook and on Instagram and on TikTok. The color...
I'm sorry, the flavor of the ice cream doesn't matter to me at all. Yet you make decent points. Some folks don't have an equal chance. I understand that. I recognize that. And maybe, Joseph, it's somewhere in between, between a vice president of diversity and a whole staff of diversity. I think I had an appellate coming up in next week's This Week in College Viability podcast. Some college has spent, I can't remember the number, $2 million on salaries.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (08:06.368)
If.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (08:14.4)
.
Gary (08:25.134)
for diversity, I don't know what it is. It doesn't matter that much, but I just question the value of putting you in a category. You are a person, you are a skilled person. You have strengths, you have weaknesses just like everybody else.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (08:25.34)
Right?
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (08:39.487)
Right, and getting people to that point, Gary, where we're no longer sort of focused on these differences, you're right, that's the goal, absolutely. But real mentorship understands that many students need customized approaches to supporting them. Teaching is only one half of the coin, the other half is mentoring. And so we're really talking about mentoring. And I'll just mention, you know,
This should be mainstream. I'm not interested in talking about DEI in a committee where we talk about cultural competence and the rest of it. We relegate it to the committee, but then in the boardroom, we're not really concerned about it. Let's make this part of our mainstream discussions. Let's not take sides. Let's not politicize this. Let's figure out, look,
These are, every student is someone's son or daughter. And so what would we want for them if that was our child? Hey, man, I'm gonna do anything I can to help get them on that trajectory from where they're at today, meet them where their story leads you to that professional that we want to go out and make a difference in the world. And that requires some meaningful dialogue and resources to support those students.
It's not about tolerance, Gary. I tolerate the lights that are over my head right now. They're fluorescent. I don't like them. I tolerate the mosquitoes in the forest because I want to be close to the trees. We should be celebrating our differences. That's the point.
Gary (10:02.542)
And before.
Gary (10:18.51)
And you tolerate me and I'm grateful for that. And before we go on.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (10:20.478)
But yes, and that's true. I do tolerate you. That's another conversation.
Gary (10:23.726)
And before we go to the next point, that's kind of what I want to reinforce. And that is the points about the reason for this podcast, for College Counterpoints, is we agree on quite a few things. And you do a good job of particular citing those. But on those times that we don't, our discussion is low key. It is low tone. It is respectful of the other position, even though it's not agreed. And even when we're offline on this kind of stuff, our discussions are on those lines. So for those listening to what we talk about,
Part of our content is to be a model because throughout higher education, really Joseph, throughout the country, that's not modeled well at all. It's either right or wrong. And that's not the case at all. We want to emphasize the process, whether you agree with Joseph on DEI or anything else, and whether you agree with me. And we also work hard to avoid labels. In the many times that we'll be doing this podcast in the coming months and years, we like to surprise you with our positions on these things because we want to make sure we look at both sides. Joseph.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (11:06.35)
Eps.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (11:22.014)
Absolutely, and I think we haven't discussed this, but I think we would agree maybe that all of us, and I don't care who we're talking about, we have more in common as Americans than we do that separate us. I think if we could start from that perspective and find common ground, we could break the logjam because obviously the politicians aren't necessarily getting it done. It's people like us that have to get it done.
Gary (11:51.598)
And we're a little bit long on this segment, but I do want to do the second topic. And I'm going to take us back to when we opened up College Counterpoints podcast today. And that is the folks at Notre Dame College. And I think I was sharing with you off camera that there was a story that I think a CBS affiliate ran a couple of days ago. And I posted with comments to LinkedIn about a student at Notre Dame College who was stunned that the college was closing. And I understand the balance that college leaders have. They can't say we're closing because then that's a self -fulfilling prophecy.
Dr. Pellerito, what's the balance in your mind for colleges who know they probably can't make it? And yet in almost all cases, but not all cases, but in almost all cases, they just don't share that likelihood with their faculty, their staff, their students and their community.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (12:35.898)
Mm -hmm.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (12:39.769)
Yeah, I think that's a great segue, Gary. I think it's a moral imperative. It's a matter of ethics that leaders, college leaders, provide transparency to not only students and their families, but also to the faculty and staff that have given their professional lives to that institution. They owe those individuals the right to an honest,
picture of what's happening and the other piece to that is they owe them in a timely manner so those individuals can have a better chance to land on their feet. You know the messaging that we hear leadership often give including from Notre Dame College is that you know we're doing everything in our power to help our students land on their feet and so forth but when you only give students a semester's notice you know I'm
I'm sorry, I don't mean to be cynical and I'm not criticizing leadership because I don't know the full story. But it's hard for me to believe, Gary, that they didn't know many months prior to that, if not even years, that there's this trajectory. And that's why I think informed decision making is so important. That's why, frankly, the college viability app, you know, I look at the data that, you know, it's providing.
I'm using it both as a college administrator, but also when I'm making choices for my daughter, who's a senior in high school right now. It's about transparency, it's about a matter of ethics, and yeah, I'm disappointed. I think a lot of those students were really caught off guard.
Gary (14:24.462)
And it happens time and time again, and it will continue to happen. And before we go to the first break, I just, you and I take some pride in trying to put ourselves in the position of others and trying to put myself in the position of the Notre Dame College president and others that have closed and others that will close. It can't be easy. It can't be easy at all for them to recognize that the last dollars are circling the financial drain and that some period of weeks or months down the road, they intellectually, maybe not emotionally,
They intellectually know they're going to have to close the doors. Yet you make good points. There's a moral imperative and there are other colleges out there. And if Joseph Pellerito University closes, students can come to Gary Stock University. There are options out there. I suggest when you know Mr. College President, Miss College President, Madam Board Leader, Mr. Board Leader, that it's not going to work. Please, please for your faculty, your staff, your students, your community.
Get the word out today, not tomorrow.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (15:28.47)
Absolutely couldn't agree couldn't agree more Gary and there should be I think some You know required reporting that I know we talked about earlier offline That you know universities colleges and so forth are are expected One would hope they would do it on their own accord though. You I don't think either one of us are promoting bigger
government necessarily and sort of oversight in that regard. It perhaps could be the role of the accreditation entities to play a bigger part in expecting, you know, managing those expectations that, you know what, we need to see this reporting on a regular basis. And so the kinds of insight that the College Viability app provides, I think,
That's what we're really asking for. Yeah, open the books. And especially with public institutions, you know, those are those are tax funded. They should be transparent. It's a little harder to make that argument with the privates. But nevertheless, if if if leadership on the private side, they do it on their own accord, then that's a moot point. Right. At the end of the day, we need more transparency and we need it now.
Gary (16:50.99)
So I'm going to do this. I'm going to practice my editing skills. We're running a little bit long on this whole thing. I'll edit this part out, of course. So let's go ahead and do read the college viability sponsorship ad. And when we do the two news stories, let's keep our comments short so we can be not much over that 20, 25 minute mark. All right.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (17:07.734)
Yeah, I think today's going great by the way, I love this.
Gary (17:10.862)
Okay, so go ahead and read the sponsorship ad and then we'll take the first news story.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (17:18.354)
Thanks, Gary. Today I want to mention one of our sponsors, College Viability App. I'm excited to talk about the College Viability App because, you know, if you're a college student or a family member or no one, this is for you. I can tell you this firsthand. I use it personally and professionally. As I've mentioned, I use it within my own family. We're assessing schools right now and making that hugely important decision for my daughter.
But I also use it as a college administrator. All of the attention the past few weeks has been on the FAFSA delays. The 2024 Private College Viability App for Students and Families is what is informally known as a reverse FAFSA. Let me explain. FAFSA gives the colleges financial information about students and their families. The 2024 Private College Viability App for Students and Families.
is a reverse FAFSA because it provides students and families with information about a college's finances. This is really needed for informed decision making. Through March 31st, the 2024 Private College Viability App for students and families is priced at only $29. 29 bucks, that's a value. Get your copy of the app today before you choose a college that is not financially pro...
prepared for your student.
Gary (18:48.75)
Columbia College in Chicago, and there are a few Columbia colleges around the country, Joseph. They have a $38 million deficit and it's been in all the media sources. So you know me, I have a terrible disease and that I like data and I like to crunch data. And so I did 38 million and I assumed that Columbia College could get something close to $30 ,000 per students as list price tuition. And I did the math and it's all at list price. And they would need, Columbia College would need 30,
thousand, I'm sorry, we need one thousand new students to get to thirty million dollars, a little bit shorter than thirty million dollars. That's at list price. If you do the 50 percent discount, that's two thousand students. These colleges continue to do layoffs and cutbacks, and I talk about these all the time, and Columbia College Joseph wants to lay off 11 to 13 is what they said, faculty, assume a hundred thousand dollars each just to make the math easy. That's one point three million. Then math doesn't work, Joseph.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (19:47.759)
Right, right. Well, you know, even if you add to the scaring, you may have already factored this in. So, you know, one of the other big, we know the revenue streams that schools look to is room and board as well. So if you even add, say, 15 grand for room and board on top of this, you're still talking about 500 new students minimum. So you add tuition, room and board, the rest of it. So you're right. We've got to be realistic about this. And I agree that numbers can help us.
Gary (19:48.27)
Folks, not being a friend.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (20:18.57)
assess the viability of a school, of an entity for sure. And so then that leads us to what? We can ask the question, what are they doing in terms of their messaging? When do they get real about this in terms of being transparent to prospective students and families, not only prospective students, but current students, right? As well as faculty and staff as we've said. So couldn't agree more.
Gary (20:45.966)
It's just the upfront and just like we talked about, and I don't want to beat this over and over again, but please college leaders be upfront. Your students have other options. It will be no fun to close. It will be no fun to cut back and lay off, but that's where the market is. And I won't go into the reasons why, but that's where the market is. You know, another one of our sponsors is Harmony Cubed. And Joseph, in today's relentless rush, it's easy to lose touch with what truly matters. I think you and I are guilty of this in some ways.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (21:11.925)
Thank
Gary (21:15.438)
which is our health. HarmonyCubed .com is your gateway to reclaiming wellness, offering practical solutions and support for a healthier you. Start your journey toward a revitalized life with us. Your path to health reimagined, health restored begins now at HarmonyCubed .com. And Dr. P, our last story this week on college counterpoints.
is, reads Manhattan College in Manhattan, New York. Manhattan College betrays faculty. Now that's not an emotional word. And this comes from Justin, Justin Weinberg in the Daily News. That's in our US. And the college in January announced some cutbacks onto 20 majors and minors and some layoffs attached to that. And here's what the faculty said. This is in a press release from the Daily News. According to faculty, Joseph, the layoffs were a totally unilateral, top -down decision by the institution's president.
Well, and I'm going to mention that the college didn't reference financial exigency. Well, they're cutting 20 majors and minors. I think they're cutting employees. Do you have to use the words, JOSA, financial exigency? Or can you just imply that's the case?
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (22:22.924)
you
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (22:29.995)
Well, you know, it's complicated, Gary, as you know, because the tenure process, it's confusing to a lot of people. But in a nutshell, it's supposed to protect faculty in terms of their livelihoods. And I have to say, I support that. It not only protects academic freedom, right? So they can express new and interesting ideas, even if you don't necessarily agree with them, but also...
protects their livelihoods in terms of job security. I'm not saying the tenure process is perfect by any means and we do need post tenure review. That's another conversation. But I have to agree. I don't know the full story, but I have to agree with this gentleman. You know, there are processes in place, policies in place and they should be followed and it sounds like they didn't follow it. So yes, they should have to use that term.
Gary (23:28.568)
You know, you mentioned academic freedom, and I think I'm going to put this on our topic list for another day because I think it's worthy of more chat, more discussion between us. And I'll tell you my position. I think academic freedom is a false flag for too many things. It's talked about a lot, but rarely in my mind is it an absolute issue that comes into play. So we'll look at that another day. You okay if I put that on the agenda, Joseph?
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (23:54.506)
Yeah, I'll look forward to that definitely because I'm all in on academic freedom.
Gary (23:59.982)
I am stunned to hear that. So, you know, there's, let's wrap this up. There's nothing wrong. Just have nothing wrong with fighting for your job. I'm sure you've done it over the years. I know I've done it. Each of us should do that. Like I've shared before, and I will share time and time again, so this is a supply and demand scenario at Manhattan College and everywhere else. Too many college seats, too few students willing to pay for them. We're in the midst of consolidation in higher education.
Fewer colleges, fewer programs, fewer majors, and probably Joseph, fewer faculty. Watch the next two months, Dr. P. In March and April, we're going to see more closure announcements. And I bet you, sir, as I let you wrap up this episode, I'll bet you, sir, many of those closure announcements will surprise most of us. Dr. P?
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (24:38.929)
Yup.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (24:51.356)
University of Amazon, University of Best Buy, coming to your neighborhood. I hope it's not the case, Gary. I'm rooting for the small privates. I'm rooting for the publics as well, of course. I'm rooting for diversity in higher education.
Gary (25:13.25)
Joseph Pellegrino Jr. I'd like to do this with you again next week. Are you interested?
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (25:17.96)
Sure, Gary, I'm looking forward to it.
Gary (25:19.926)
Let's get together next Thursday and provide another episode of College Counterpoints for Dr. Joseph Pellerito Jr. I'm Gary Stocker. We'll do this again next week. Take care.