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Eggheads is the go-to podcast for egg industry professionals who are interested in leadership and innovation in the egg world. Host Greg Schonefeld explores the evolving world of modern egg farming, from the latest in cage-free innovations and organic certifications to navigating the economics of large-scale production. Whether you're an egg producer, supplier, or involved in poultry genetics, this show provides the insights and expert discussions you need to thrive in the industry. Crack open the science, strategies, and stories behind the egg industry’s biggest challenges and opportunities.
Bernd Meerpohl:
There's one simple rule at Big Dutchman and the rule is you can lose a deal, but if you don't sit at the table, then you are in trouble.
Greg Schonefeld:
I'm Greg Schonefeld and this is Eggheads. Globally, the egg industry is pretty segmented. And what I mean is that selling eggs in say Switzerland is going to look a lot different than selling eggs in Indonesia. But today's guest, because of the scale and geographical reach of his business, is one of a small number of people who can look at the industry with a true bird's eye view.
Bernd Meerpohl:
Basically, Big Dutchman is in all continents today and we have delivered into 174 countries last count. Last year did about 1.5 billion Euro sales.
Greg Schonefeld:
That's Bernd Meerpohl, the former CEO and current chairman of Big Dutchman, a global provider of farming equipment for egg, poultry, and pigs. Bernd took over a CEO from his father who came from pretty humble beginnings.
Bernd Meerpohl:
My father was really a poor chicken, pig, cow farmer. Poor in a lot of senses actually. He was poor and he was poor.
Greg Schonefeld:
He may have been a poor farmer, but after Bernd's dad was brought on as a distributor for Big Dutchman, his true talent became clear.
Bernd Meerpohl:
My father was a good salesman. And I would say what his biggest and best trade was that he always tried to understand what the person on the opposite side of the table was thinking. And he always said, "It's easy to say no, the good people find a solution."
Greg Schonefeld:
The distribution business was eventually taken over by the company and Bernd's father became the president of Big Dutchman, Germany. But in the '70s, the company started to go through some tough times.
Bernd Meerpohl:
After Big Dutchman was sold twice to big conglomerates, the business went completely down after the Middle East really tanked. The Shah of Persia was thrown out. Sales went down and everything. Not so at Big Dutchman Germany, it was all okay. But in Holland and the US was difficult times. And then they just wanted to get rid of it.
Greg Schonefeld:
And so in 1985, with the help of some friends, Bernd's father bought the company and began a journey that would see Big Dutchman expand even further. And after being sent to all four corners of the globe, Bernd himself would eventually take the reins and continue growing the company into the behemoth it is today.
So we sat down with Bernd to pick his brain about how different global events shaped Big Dutchman over the years, the company's commitment to expansion and innovation, and his outlook for the future of the industry. But first we start at the beginning and what inspired his father to take such a massive financial risk in purchasing what seemed to be a fledgling business.
So it sounds like at that time, maybe from the outside looking in or from the corporate perspective, it looked like a mess. But to your dad who knew the company, he felt comfortable with the risks and wanted to take it on.
Bernd Meerpohl:
Yeah, absolutely. His heart was pumping orange blood all his life. And today you would say he was a bad father because he never had time for us. But I wouldn't think that way. I would just say he just loved what he was doing. And he saw opportunities and possibilities. Obviously, for us it was not easy because we were only the daughter of the daughter company and suddenly we were the center of the universe, so to speak. And we had to learn English, we had to learn French, we had to learn Spanish, and we had to become the headquarters suddenly. And that was not easy, but eventually we got there.
Greg Schonefeld:
So you mentioned at that time that there were problems in the Middle East. Were you doing significant business in the Middle East? Or was it just that the problems in the Middle East affected the whole global outlook at that time?
Bernd Meerpohl:
For Europe here, that was the big business, really. They made so much money with the oil prices in '74 going sky-high. And so then they started investing, similar to what they do today actually, very similar. And that was big business for Big Dutchman and for many of our competitors around the door here.
Greg Schonefeld:
And what were you selling at that time?
Bernd Meerpohl:
Cages, just simple cages and broiler, broiler breeder, but mainly cage systems. They had money and they wanted to make sure that they could feed their people. And they made projects considering to what we have here in Europe, huge projects, some of which, at the end, never saw chicken because they had no clue what to do with it. They would say, "We want the best and so on and so on and so on." And it was done. And then suddenly they thought, "Oops, we don't have water enough."
Greg Schonefeld:
So it was the mid '80s. The Middle East boom came to an end. Bernd's father had just acquired the company and times were tough. But then a few years later, the political winds shifted yet again.
Bernd Meerpohl:
Then in '89 what happened, the wall came down. And Berlin being East Europe, Russia. And so the East German market completely boomed from one day to the other, plus the East European market started to develop. We were right here at the forefront of it. And so we really took advantage there in Russia and everywhere. Right from the start, my father said, "We go there. Every country we have to have people. We have people on the ground and they have to be there." And since he saw that that was successful or would be successful, he said, "And we will do the same in Southeast Asia because we believe that market will come as well." So we basically ventured out into Southeast Asia with own companies and into East Europe, its own companies. We started Big Dutchman Russia, I would say in '92. We were there already a few years on the ground with people since '89.
And in '92 we started our first company in Malaysia where we have our whole headquarters today as well, headquarter for Asia.
Greg Schonefeld:
So were those moves going into Eastern Europe and Southeast Asia, was that a key milestone to making Big Dutchman what it is today?
Bernd Meerpohl:
Absolutely. Absolutely. Going out into the markets. And that was the big success, I would say, being there early enough also trusting the people. We basically gave loans to Russian farmers or bigger companies at times where everyone would say, "You cannot trust these people." And my father said, "I can trust them." And I must say, they always paid. They always paid. It was sometimes difficult, yes, but they always paid. And that was the success and that always kept them also being with us, being with Big Dutchman. Even when later the competition came, the competition only saw closed doors.
Greg Schonefeld:
So what did your father see at that time? What gave him the confidence that that could be successful?
Bernd Meerpohl:
Well, I would say his confidence was just he said, "We need to sell, we need to sell, we need to sell." Well, today I'm writing under my emails, I'm still writing what the first owner of Big Dutchman with Mr. David wrote under every of his letter, "Keep selling."
Greg Schonefeld:
So that's still your mantra today, is keep selling.
Bernd Meerpohl:
That's still our motto. And I think that has made the difference, I would say.
Greg Schonefeld:
Why Russia? Why Southeast Asia at that time? Why not South America or wherever else?
Bernd Meerpohl:
Well, first of all, East Europe, my father had been there years, years before. And he knew that there were huge farms. Not only Russia, but also in Czech Republic and East Germany. Even in many other countries, they had built very big facilities for broiler, for pick, for layer. Farms, where the biggest farm ever in Germany was, if I'm not mistaken, 700,000 layers. Everything started with 700,000 layers in Russia and then up to two, three, four million. And all of that was completely rotten, completely broken down.
Same with the pig farms, completely rotten and it was easy to see they had to do something. And there we don't, like in Germany, when we sold something at that time, if we had a 250,000 Euro deal or dollar deal, we would have said, "Whoa, super deal." There, everything had at least one more zero and that was the big difference. And in Southeast Asia, my father saw just the sheer number. He always said, "It's very simple. Don't make a study, just tell me how many people there live. And then I can tell you whether they need chicken, whether they need eggs and maybe, maybe pigs."
Greg Schonefeld:
This idea that Russia has bigger projects and that they need an overhaul of their equipment, was that pretty commonly known or was that just something your dad saw somehow?
Bernd Meerpohl:
I think if someone would have gone there just once, he would have understood it. But everyone was still very reluctant to do business with people who had basically were said to have no money and that was partly true, which just came basically out of the ashes, so to speak. But my father knew it exactly. And he sent people, he sent loads of people there, salesmen and said, "You go to every farm." And there's one simple rule at Big Dutchman. And the rule is you can lose a deal, but if you don't sit at the table, then you are in trouble.
Greg Schonefeld:
It's clear Bernd's father led a strong foundation with an obsession around selling and a willingness to take risks entering new markets. But Bernd took over the company just a few years later. And under his leadership, Big Dutchman expanded even further. So I wanted to understand how Bernd's entrance shaped the company.
So you came in at 1989. So you were there right at that major milestone where you went to Russia and you went to Southeast Asia. You were really there from the beginning. And then I understand you took over in 1992, so only a few years later.
Bernd Meerpohl:
Yeah, that's correct.
Greg Schonefeld:
That seems actually surprising because it sounds like your father was a real go-getter. And then not long after getting control, like you said, he bled orange, he gets control of the company in '85, makes a major move in '89, and then hands it over to you a few years later. What caused that?
Bernd Meerpohl:
I would say that was a theory. The practice was a little bit different. Because he sent me out all the time, he was, of course, he is a total backbone. If something was to be decided here and at its time don't forget, no mobile phones, so it was not so easy to communicate. So my father was the total backbone here. And for the initial 10 to even 15 years, he was always at my side. I slept in my parents' house and I had lunch every day with my father. And it needed only one question and he would say, "Did you think of this?" And I would say, "Nah, I didn't." "Okay, then think about it." He gave me a lot of freedom. He said, "You have to decide," but he asked always the right questions.
Greg Schonefeld:
Interesting. Yeah. So it sounds like you were bleeding orange during that time too, and it sounds like you had a very good partnership between the two of you. What would you say your biggest strengths are or your mode of operating? Is it similar to your father or is it a little different?
Bernd Meerpohl:
Oh, that's definitely different. I'm not such a good salesman like my father. I'm sure not. But he taught me a lot about that. And one of my pros is that I, more than my father, enjoyed the technical side of the business, even though I'm not an engineer. But I really enjoyed the technical part of it and there I pushed all the time. And I tried to improve all products. That was one of my favorite things. And I understood that selling is the only thing we have to do right and then everything will be good at the end.
Greg Schonefeld:
Bernd may not have seen himself as the salesman his father was, but he clearly recognized the importance of sales as the drive to expand that characterized his father's leadership continued and even accelerated after he took over.
Bernd Meerpohl:
Well, basically today we are everywhere. Of course, in some markets we are better and in some we are worse. But I would say today we are globally very well covered in all the important regions. And that was always the goal and is still the goal we want to be the best represented company in which way ever. It doesn't matter for us whether it's an own salesman, whether it's an own company or whether it's a distributor or an agent or whatever, we just want to be in every market and that is always our goal and intrinsic motivation to be best in every market.
Greg Schonefeld:
And is that about growth? Is it about diversification? Or just a competitiveness that, "Hey, I want to be the best everywhere we go." What drives that?
Bernd Meerpohl:
First of all, I think you need to grow to be able to do the things better every day because you need to make money to be able to put 20 million or whatever into new software tools or whatever. So you just need to grow, I think. It's growth or the size of the company, the most important part now is we want to be at service for the global farmers or chicken and pig farmers, we want to be at service in every market. And that's my motivation. I don't need to be the biggest, but I want to be the best service to all of them.
But at the same time, of course, also what we also want to do is finding new opportunities. And one of which we are looking into or have been looking into for the past few years, for the past few difficult years, to be honest, is the greenhouse business. Because we believe it's a very similar business, similar customers, not the same because a pig farmer is not a poultry farmer, is not a layer farmer, is certainly not a greenhouse farmer. But they need good service, they need good logistics, they need having long-term investment plan. That's all very similar to them. And we have invested in the greenhouse business now to add one more leg to our different business units, if you want to call them that.
Greg Schonefeld:
I guess I can relate in my own business. I don't know if you know, but my core business is we install equipment, such as we install quite a bit of Big Dutchman equipment. But one thing we'll face is, oh, this is a slowing egg market. And if we're only US and it's a slowing egg market and you have people depending on you, you're trying to build teams, you're trying to build systems and processes, and then if you have a 30% setback in a market, what do you do? Is that the thing that you're fighting against by going global and diversifying and growing?
Bernd Meerpohl:
Absolutely. That is helping a lot to have a bigger base because as what you can see is that one market is slowing and the other one is better and so on. And that does help. It's not the same spring of everything, but it does help. And we believe that if we are also going, for example, into not only new market, but also new areas of the business, then that will make us a bit more steady and a bit more safe, so to speak, in the long run. And of course, one of the differences with Big Dutchman is that we are not producing a lot of our products ourselves.
Actually, at the very most part of our products are not produced by Big Dutchman. And that makes us, of course, investment light and so we can invest in markets and products, product development and markets. That's where we want to invest our money.
Greg Schonefeld:
So you made an intentional decision to focus on product design and selling. And the rest you can basically outsource.
Bernd Meerpohl:
That's exactly right. We are trying to find the best producer of every single part we do. Today, what is Big Dutchman? Today, Big Dutchman is an engineering company, a sales company, and also a logistic company. Do we make the same money then a company which is more in-depth producing? No, we are not. But is that all right? Yeah, it's totally all right.
Greg Schonefeld:
Would you say there's also advantages in just everything you get to see? Maybe you get to see something working in the US or you see something working in China. Is there learning that takes place just from the broad exposure?
Bernd Meerpohl:
Totally. If I would look at the market development in the laying hen business over the past 30 years, we did the first alternative egg production in 1987. That's when I basically started with Big Dutch. That was first time we did alternative laying hens. And even 10 years ago, it might have been 12, I don't know. People in the US were laughing at me when I said, "Wait and see alternative laying hens will also come to the US." They were saying, "Never."
And those developments we see and we see them also in other markets where we are close to the customers, where we are local on the ground, foot on the ground, where we see early enough, okay, this development is coming, which is then fed back to our engineerings or business development guys to design the products around it.
Greg Schonefeld:
One recent trend in the US has been there's been some Brazilian-based egg producers that have purchased their way basically into the US market. And I get the feeling that some of these egg producers are becoming globally minded. Do you think that's an advantage for egg producers to think globally instead of being tied maybe to one market, one region?
Bernd Meerpohl:
I don't know whether that's an market advantage for them because the egg markets are pretty designed for a country, I would say. It's not quite true for Europe/ but for the US, the little you are selling outside and so on. But where it does help them, I believe, is on the back-end, on the knowledge side. If they have their systems in the chain and if they have their size of buying our equipment, chicken, feed to some extent, and also have their processes perfectly in order, then I think they are definitely gaining.
Greg Schonefeld:
So in other words, the way the egg farms have to invest, like if I'm an egg producer and I'm going to decide, "Hey, I'm going to expand in the US," that's such a long-term decision, that you're committed to that market through good times and bad really. So you're not picking up that advantage. But in gaining scale, there could be some advantages in buying power. If you're a major buyer, it gives you leverage. And then also just the learnings they can get maybe from the different markets allows them to find different little advantages potentially.
Bernd Meerpohl:
And bring it to the other markets then. To basically what they do better in Brazil they may bring to the US and what they do better in the US they may bring back to Europe and what they do better in Europe, they may bring to Asia or back to Brazil for that matter.
Greg Schonefeld:
Okay, interesting. We touched on your global perspective allowing you to be early sometimes and you mentioned in the alternative egg production being one example. Another area where I understand you were early was in understanding the importance of data. Tracking data in these different farms, whether it's egg production or swine production. Can you talk more about that?
Bernd Meerpohl:
We have indeed invested a lot of money and time and effort in the systems to collect the data, which is basically what the products we have on-site, the sensors and the computer systems. And that's actually one of the very few parts. The sensors as well as the computers, we are actually producing in-house. First of all, because that is so important and difficult part to have top reliable data going to the headquarters of the companies or to the slaughterhouses and so on. One would say that cannot be so difficult, but it is actually difficult.
Greg Schonefeld:
What makes it difficult?
Bernd Meerpohl:
Reliability, making sure that the sensors are working correctly in this harsh environment. We can see that how long we have tried to get that in a perfect state. It is difficult.
Greg Schonefeld:
Yeah. And is that from country to country? Is it harder in some countries than others? Or across the board it's difficult?
Bernd Meerpohl:
For sure it's from country to country. Also, the next point is how to get the data up into the cloud or into the headquarter. Do we have cables laying around? Or do you have Starlink or whatever to drive the data up? And that all needs to be perfectly aligned that there's no mismatch because if you get wrong data from a broiler farm that is detrimental. You are taking the wrong decisions. And so from that perspective, it has to be really perfect.
Greg Schonefeld:
If we stick with eggs, what kind of data are you focused on collecting? Is it all about how many eggs are coming through on a conveyor compared to number of birds? I guess what are you really focused on in data collection?
Bernd Meerpohl:
That is for sure an important part. But also water, feed consumption, time of water consumption, because then you can see possible early warnings on diseases, et cetera, trend warnings on egg numbers going down, water consumption going down, feed consumption going down, any of that may cause an issue. And so we want to be earlier in what we see, if we can, and that for sure will be supported in the future also more than today already by artificial intelligence as well.
Greg Schonefeld:
So I guess speaking of artificial intelligence, how does that change things when it comes to data?
Bernd Meerpohl:
Well, first of all, I think we have to be very careful with that and I think it's really early, early, early because, at the end of the day, at least my knowledge about artificial intelligence is that you better think twice what you receive. And that will still be a long way out before it is reliable enough to control a million chicken. Or to make decisions on a million chicken. Will it help already in the very near future to see things better than maybe a human being can detect it on these vast datas? Totally yes. But the decision making factor is only the person, can only be the person for a long, long, long time to come.
Greg Schonefeld:
You said from the point you started working with data till now, one of the biggest challenges has been the reliability, I guess, whether it's the connectivity, making sure you're getting good information because bad information can almost be worse than no information. Sounds like you're guarding against the same thing with artificial intelligence, that there's right now a high risk that you could be getting bad information from artificial intelligence.
Bernd Meerpohl:
Yeah, I see it that way.
Greg Schonefeld:
And so data is able to track some of those things but not everything. I guess a person walking down the aisle, I've heard stories where some farmers with a lot of experience can walk into a house and by the smell, something's wrong. Or you just see a bird behaving a certain way and instinctively you know something's wrong. Data can't pick up on all of that today.
Bernd Meerpohl:
That's totally right, but why are we doing all this? Because we will get less and less people be willing to do those kinds of tasks and to be there seven days a week for us consumers. And making the difference seven days a week, you find less and less people and if you don't have consistency in what you do and see there, then of course that gets lost. And if we can bring that over time into models which help us better to detect what's going on and basically develop the nose you are talking about to a certain extent. The eye of the farmer is always better than everything else, I would say, but I think it would help if we can bring those together working well together, better together than we are doing today.
Greg Schonefeld:
So we've got Bernd's take on expansion and the next frontier of technological advancement in the industry. But with my next question, I wanted to go a bit broader and get Bernd's opinion on the outlook for the industry as a whole.
Bernd Meerpohl:
I do believe that the egg industry is in a, well it has been for a couple of years now, in a very positive mode. Will that go on forever? No, it will not go on forever. But I do believe if we do the right things in treating our animals, if we do the right things to take good care of diseases, and if we do the right things to also treat the people working in the field fairly and correctly, I think there's a very good chance for a very long positive business for many, many years to come. I do believe that. I think especially on the pig and on the poultry side, there is a lot of opportunities still. I do believe that. I mean, There will be ups and downs, no doubt, and plus feed costs will go up and will go down and da, da, da, but I believe that.
Greg Schonefeld:
Yeah. Would you have said the same thing 10 or 20 years ago? Is there anything different today? What makes today different?
Bernd Meerpohl:
Yeah, that's a good question. What makes it different? I would say, first of all, the general consensus is that we will need good protein to feed the world. And the world is still growing. I think we see this very positively for broiler and egg, which is the cheapest protein. And I think that will carry a long way yet.
Greg Schonefeld:
So you see eggs and poultry as having a natural environment because of how cheaply you can produce protein and you see a lot of demand for that coming.
Bernd Meerpohl:
Yes, that's right. That's right. Especially in the Southern Hemisphere, of course, because there's more growth in population. But that will come.
Greg Schonefeld:
Is that why you've stayed out of beef or dairy?
Bernd Meerpohl:
Dairy is very difficult because it's actually the milking equipment and there are only basically three companies in the world. We are too small to buy any of those, otherwise I would possibly consider. But beef is, of course, the most expensive product. And I would say if I would have the chance today, would I do it? Probably not.
Greg Schonefeld:
The thing I take away from Bernd is that he seems to have a knack for spotting trends, whether it's growth in Russia, investment in data, or his prediction that cheap protein is the place to be. He seems to start with insight and then build with conviction. On top of that, Big Dutchman is built for adaptation, shed down to sales, engineering, and logistics to increase flexibility to move in and out of markets geographically and by species. Hearing the stories of Big Dutchman's past, it's clear that ag markets can shift in ways that are beyond operators' control.
So spotting the trends and being built for that adaptation allows you to capitalize on stronger markets. And after talking with Bernd, that's something I've taken to heart in my own business. Now, having covered a little bit of history, economics and tech, just one burning question remains.
Well, Bernd, I have one last question for you. How do you prefer your eggs?
Bernd Meerpohl:
My kids don't want me to produce any food for them, any, with one exception and that is poached eggs. Poppy, me, is the only person who can make poached eggs, not even in a 5 star hotel they can make poached eggs. Only Poppy can do that. If you ask me, I really like today a good omelet with a little bit of chili.
Greg Schonefeld:
If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a colleague or friend. Word of mouth really helps us to grow the show. And to make sure you don't miss an episode, follow us on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. Until next time, I'm Greg Schonefeld and we'll talk to you soon.