[00:00:00] Katie Gordon: Welcome to Wellness, questioned, a podcast looking at how to navigate the wellness industry well. Hosted by me, Katie Gordon and Annabel Lee.
[00:00:15] Annabel Lee: Each episode we cover a different aspect of wellness and self improvement, looking at ethics, scandals and red flags.
[00:00:22] Katie Gordon: Hello. How are you?
[00:00:24] Annabel Lee: I am okay, fine.
[00:00:26] Katie Gordon: Have you done your morning breathwork, visualisations and manifesting?
[00:00:31] Annabel Lee: I have not, I haven't done my morning pages, haven't eaten, haven't even eaten any overnight oats this morning!
[00:00:36] Katie Gordon: No green juice?
[00:00:38] Annabel Lee: No!
[00:00:38] Katie Gordon: How are you living your life?
[00:00:39] Annabel Lee: I know, I'm letting the wellness girlies down.
[00:00:43] Katie Gordon: You really are. You need to at least have taken some sort of £100 supplement.
[00:00:48] Annabel Lee: Yeah.
[00:00:48] Katie Gordon: So today, we're going to talk about Pranayama and breathwork. So what is breathwork, Annabel? Do you know?
[00:00:55] Annabel Lee: Breathwork is, I guess, sort of modifying and controlling how you breathe to try and influence how you feel and how your body functions?
[00:01:10] Katie Gordon: Yeah, that sounds about right. So breathwork is like, hot right now. A lot of people seem to practice it. It comes into loads of other practices as well, like Wim Hof. It is essentially controlling your breath in order to create changes in your body or how you feel. So, I mean, if we're talking about just breath work, it sort of began in the 60s with like, things like holotropic breath.
[00:01:37] Annabel Lee: I feel like I've heard of
[00:01:39] Katie Gordon: I have a very vague grasp of that, so yeah. But that was kind of the beginning and then other people have come in like Wim Hof and taken bits and pieces of it and made it into this new thing. As you may know there's also something called pranayama in yoga and so pranayama is also sometimes referred to as breathwork but, and it is also control of the breath, but it's also to do with prana, which is energy or life force. So it's controlling that, so it's kind of a bigger thing and there's obviously a spiritual component to it. So some people are arguing that breath work is Pranayama stripped of the context from which it came, culturally appropriating, which I think is a fair point because some of the practices like Wim Hof's are drawn from Pranayama practices. So they take something and then call it something new, which is we've seen in yoga and many other ancient traditions, many times that you take something, you strip it of its context and then you repackage it and sell it. So breath work seems to be like the cool, modern, like, unproblematic thing where you're just controlling your breath and the Wim Hof also apparently comes from a Tibetan Buddhist practice called Tomo, which it translates to inner fire. So again, it's finding something that has a spiritual aspect to it, stripping it out and then just using it by itself. So I think there's also an argument that is it really doing the same thing? Is it the same practice? And what is lost from this practice when it's stripped of context and cultural heritage? I think if you look on Instagram there's a lot of breathwork there, there's a lot of Box breath, which I've mentioned before.
[00:03:48] Annabel Lee: Shall we say what box breath is if the listeners don't know? You probably know. It's a breathing exercise, I guess, where you visualize a box, a Square, and you breathe in for the count of four, going up the side of the box, you hold the breath at the top of the box for the count of four, you exhale down the other side of the box for the count of four and then you hold the breath out for the count of four. So I learned that when I did my yoga teacher training course. I'm sure lots of yoga teachers...
[00:04:24] Katie Gordon: Did they call it box breath?
[00:04:26] Annabel Lee: Yeah, or the four part breath.
[00:04:28] Katie Gordon: Okay. It is Samariti, which is equal movement, essentially. So it's a Pranayama practice and then let's call it box breath because sounds...
[00:04:37] Annabel Lee: It's easy.
[00:04:38] Katie Gordon: ...modern, right? And there is something really interesting about this idea that modern practices are what works and taking any kind of spiritual, cultural context out of it, makes it somehow more science y? It sounds more science y, it sounds modern, it sounds exciting, whereas if you package up Pranayama there's maybe a perception that it's a bit like airy fairy or fluffy or old and I don't quite know what that's about. I think it's interesting to think about what the differences are and why that's happening.
[00:05:21] Annabel Lee: I think sometimes what is quite interesting, and I don't know if this is with breath work specifically, but sometimes what we see is that there'll be a practice that has emerged kind of in parallel timelines. So it might be, I'm not saying this is the case with the box breath, for example. But sometimes we'll see that there's sort of something that's been practiced for years and years through a kind of a lineage and that sort of becomes like a tool that is used and then perhaps that tool is co opted or kind of brought to another audience and then it's sort of backed with science and then it's kind of shown that's worked, or sometimes we'll see that like similar practices have been kind of used because the body is ultimately the same body. So it's quite hard sometimes, I think, to like untangle belly breathing, for example, which is where you're breathing deep into your stomach. You're filling up all of your lungs. Like, that does make you feel a bit calmer because you're able to sort of support your parasympathetic nervous system, aren't you? You're smiling at me. But like, if you're breathing in your top chest, that, you feel more anxious and so if you are able to breathe more deeply, it does, it just, like, there was like a, okay, yeah, usually I'm oversimplifying.
[00:06:46] Katie Gordon: I'm being annoying. But yeah.
[00:06:48] Annabel Lee: And I think sometimes there are these sort of like little nuggets of truth about like how the body functions But so sometimes I think it is I'm not saying that's the case with this, but I think sometimes it is quite hard to like untangle where things come from.
[00:07:03] Katie Gordon: Yeah and sometimes they're, like you say, from multiple different backgrounds and heritages. But a lot of these things do seem to at least come from yoga, from Buddhism, from ancient practices and I'm sure that there are new ones that have also come out of different parts of the world and are different as well but there is definitely some kind of repackaging going on and I think there's also this repackaging and when you strip it all out of context and how these practices are taught now, I wonder how that also impacts on their use and their effectiveness as well.
[00:07:46] Annabel Lee: It's interesting seeing things like apps where you might be taught breathwork. It's just sort of the irony is so strong because you might be feeling stressed or anxious because of technology and then you're kind of leaning on this app which is maybe showing you this visualization of like breathe in for four or hold your breath for this long and how tech is then like completely stripping out any of the context and any of the lineage and just showing you this quite, almost like algorithmic based thing of breathe for four, breathe, you know, hold for eight, all this kind of...
[00:08:21] Katie Gordon: And it's quite formulaic as well because obviously people have different breath counts because some people don't breathe properly or they don't breathe deeply but also people have different size bodies and different size lungs and different lung capacities and stuff so there's this idea that okay breathe in for four, breath out for four that's like the ultimate thing but some people, breath retention can make them feel more anxious, certainly that I don't practice because it makes me feel anxious. Some people will really struggle to hold for four or to breathe out for four. Yeah, you can work on that and you can, change your breath, and maybe have some impact on your lung capacity and the way that you breathe. But also, it's like this boxing up of something and selling it wholesale, which we see over and over again. Where actually, as always, the more nuanced look at this, like maybe some people need to breathe in for three and some people need to breathe in for six. So, again, the way it's sold and it tends to be breathwork, sold in this way, as far as I know, I mean I'm sure there's plenty of yoga studios also teaching Panayama in this way. It's like, this is the practice and this is how you do it, rather than like, work, play with this practice and see if it works for you and maybe you work up to four or maybe you don't ever get to four.
[00:09:45] Annabel Lee: Because it's quite interesting, I think, from a yoga lens, how often what we see in, like, Western yoga classes would be a bit of a breathwork practice at the beginning of a class, then the asana, the movement for the bulk of the class, and then sometimes It's a little bit of breathwork at the end and then you're kind of done. But traditionally, I think, you know more about this than me, but I think there's more of a focus and in some classes there is this, but like a focus on really like breath awareness throughout the practice and there's like, you dry your breath isn't there, which quite often people will practice in yoga, which is the sort of slight constriction of the back of the throat, used as a tool to kind of help you focus and help, which you hear that in yoga, some, you know, I do that sometimes when I practice yoga, but we see it now, I think, as just a little tiny bit that we do, like the breathwork part of the practice is done in five minutes, it's a side note, whereas from what I've... the reading that I've done around it, it traditionally is the practice, it is very much part of the practice rather than it just being a little...
[00:10:59] Katie Gordon: I think, yeah, I think that's partly to do with the commercialisation of yoga and taking out everything except asana. Like, asana is what seems to sell and what people seem to want to do and it'll be interesting to see if there is a bit of a shift in that as well. As breathwork becomes more popular, would more Pranayama in classes be something people are more interested in? I wonder if that will go hand in hand or whether it will be seen as a different thing and how many yoga studios are calling things breathwork and Pranayama and why. So, I think it is a side note in most studios. It's not something that I teach very much because I'm not, I don't have like a separate qualification in it. But I think there is more practice of it, whether it's called breathwork or Pranayama, of course around and I think a lot of that comes from the idea of like, Wim Hof, or cold plunging, which we've talked about.
[00:12:01] Annabel Lee: Mouth taping.
[00:12:02] Katie Gordon: Mouth taping. Those kinds of things, where people are beginning to realise that how you breathe can have a big impact and in sports as well, I think that a lot of the ice baths and breathing practices are more prevalent now in sport.
[00:12:19] Annabel Lee: For sure and that's something that I've. noticed a lot about trying, if you're doing cardio, to like keep the nose breathing for as long as possible, to not go into mouth breathing.
[00:12:29] Katie Gordon: Yeah, I'm mouth breathing all day at the moment, I've got a cold. Sorry about that.
[00:12:33] Annabel Lee: I actually did write an article on this ages ago about that and I can't really remember.
[00:12:38] Katie Gordon: About mouth breathing.
[00:12:39] Annabel Lee: About mouth breathing and because the inclination is when you're exerting yourself that your body wants to just get as much air in as possible so you will go to a mouth to mouth breathing, but it is more efficient for your body to breathe through your nose.
[00:12:55] Katie Gordon: Even when you're exercising?
[00:12:57] Annabel Lee: I think sometimes there is a call that actually you do need to breathe through your mouth, but if you were doing, you know, if you're doing like endurance running to try and keep the nose breath for as long as you can, or at least in through your nose and out through your mouth, I think, I'm not...
[00:13:12] Katie Gordon: I guess if you're doing running, then, unless you are sprinting, you're kind of at a steady pace.
[00:13:18] Annabel Lee: Trying, yeah, trying to hold on, it's so complicated, I don't know. There's all this stuff about like the VO2 capacity and all like, I don't know. But I think it is something I think that people might be aware of if they are runners, for example, I've been using like an online coaching app to help me with my running and like my digital coach has always said, you know, try and keep the nose breath for as long as possible and it's fine if you need to breathe through your mouth, but like to just try and keep that and I definitely do notice when I'm like, then I sort of think, Oh, maybe I need to like, slow it down a bit. But I think that there is lots of people. who maybe do, you know, various types of sport, or even if you're lifting, if you're in the gym, you know, using your breath...
[00:14:07] Katie Gordon: Retention, yeah.
[00:14:08] Annabel Lee: ...to support you, that there is a sort of awareness of that, and then a kind of, perhaps a sort of open mindedness to something called breathwork, which you know, even if you hadn't heard of Pranayama, or, you know, you might sort of think, oh, okay, that's kind of interesting and I'll sort of go into that through this very kind of unspiritual lens or Western...
[00:14:30] Katie Gordon: I guess it makes it more accessible in some ways, like, you hear breathwork, you know what that is, and Pranayama might sound a bit, I don't know, like, what is that? What's that about? And some of the Pranayama practices are very intense. But I suppose that's the same with some of the breathwork practices as well. But yeah, I think it's an interesting topic as always to talk about what comes from where and what we're repackaging and selling and what that context or lack of context does. I don't think there's anything wrong with breathwork at all, but like all these things in yoga, having at least some knowledge, if you're teaching this stuff, of where it might actually originally come from, or at least vaguely, these like thousands of years old practices, would be helpful and you might also find out stuff from that can help support the people that you're teaching it to.
[00:15:26] Annabel Lee: Yeah, to understand, I guess, the stories and the lineage of it and why that was used and what that can help with, I think is for sure helpful. Rather than it just being this sort of, I don't know, like resilience training or this sort of, kind of...
[00:15:44] Katie Gordon: Optimisation again, isn't it? Like, how can we use our breath to optimise performance.
[00:15:48] Annabel Lee: Yeah, be better.
[00:15:50] Katie Gordon: Or actually to treat anxiety and things as well. Like, I guess if you look at reels on Instagram, there's a lot of like, do this breath for anxiety or whatever, which isn't necessarily great, but maybe someone might see something and find it really helpful as well.
[00:16:06] Annabel Lee: Yeah, because I think the thing with breath is, that it's part of everyone, isn't it? So...
[00:16:12] Katie Gordon: Well, yeah, you've got to breathe.
[00:16:13] Annabel Lee: You've got to breathe, and it is unconscious, isn't it, most of the time. Now I feel like I'm very aware of my breathing and I think obviously the power of it, it can be really helpful and it can be really helpful in moments of like crisis or you know, the sort of mindfulness thing, the classic, bring your focus back to your breath and your breath being an anchor in the prep, because you can't breathe in the future, you can't breathe in the past, so breath is quite a helpful sort of grounding thing for lots of people, isn't it? But I think, yeah, you're right, it's interesting as it becomes its own sort of practice, like, who's qualified to teach it, I guess? And where is that coming from? Because I think sometimes I see things saying, you know, breathing in for seven, hold for three, breathe out for eight and I sort of think, where's that come from? Like, who said? You know, and of course, maybe it doesn't matter, but like you were saying, maybe more awareness of the functionality of breath, you know, actually that kind of, it is interesting to know there are sort of four parts to a breath cycle and if you're holding it, that might make you feel anxious. So you feel more empowered to do your own kind of thing that works for you.
[00:17:27] Katie Gordon: I think seeing it on Instagram sort of packaged and sold as like something very simple and straightforward that anyone could do. There's obviously good things to that, but it also. It's this idea of, well, therefore anyone can teach that as well, like, anyone can teach a four part breath. So, people do, and that's not necessarily taught in a way that is helpful to everyone. If you're taught something in a space where someone isn't actually trained to do it, I think it's this thing of yoga as well, like, everyone thinks it's easy to teach and it's absolutely not. There is so much more to teaching yoga than there is to almost anything. any other kind of movement practice because so much care is taken around trauma around different kinds of bodies like. So much conversation is had around yoga in a way that it's just not around any other movement practice. It's just not in the same way and it should be the same of breathwork, of like, how you teach these things to different populations and to people with, you know, trauma or other things going on or physical health conditions, mental health conditions. So it's this thing of both of these things and the practice of Pranayama being like, strip it of all context, then it's simplified to a point where it seems very easy and anyone can teach it and yes, maybe you still get benefits from that, but it's not the same as having someone who is taught in that practice, experienced and has knowledge of it and it can even be harmful, I think.
[00:19:01] Annabel Lee: It's interesting thinking about the almost the recognised qualification or what we would expect from someone to be teaching breathwork because it's hard to know and I guess as it becomes a more popular practice, which I think it will, I guess there's a question mark over, well, who is, like, what do we expect? Like, yoga is not a good example because it's like not very regulated, but there is a kind of a very basic standard expectation for a yoga teacher.
[00:19:33] Katie Gordon: They would at least have some knowledge, hopefully, of the practice they were teaching.
[00:19:37] Annabel Lee: But it's hard to know with breath work, maybe somebody's done a Wim Hof course, or maybe somebody's done a, you know, doctorate in like biomedical...
[00:19:48] Katie Gordon: Or nothing and...
[00:19:49] Annabel Lee: Or maybe someone, exactly, maybe someone's just done nothing, just is interested in it and is teaching their own sort of method.
[00:19:57] Katie Gordon: Or it's added on to the end of a gym class or something like that as well.
[00:20:01] Annabel Lee: Then we sort of, because the dynamics of a student teacher relationship in whatever capacity are imbalanced, we trust people who we are, who are seen as experts, and so we might take on board, you know, this random advice that maybe helps them.
[00:20:19] Katie Gordon: Or we do what we're told, yeah.
[00:20:22] Annabel Lee: And we want to be told what to do, you know, often that's why we sort of are interested in new practices, because we want specifics. But yeah, I do wonder if actually more base knowledge for people about breath, because I remember going to yoga before I was a teacher when I was just kind of interested in it and thinking this is so interesting and like, oh this breathwork will, you know, lead to some kind of spiritual enlightenment or something like that and you kind of, you want to know, I think we want to know, this thing will help, this thing will...
[00:20:55] Katie Gordon: Yeah.
[00:20:56] Annabel Lee: ...make me better. But actually understanding kind of why I think sometimes is helpful...
[00:21:00] Katie Gordon: Yeah, at least the teacher understanding.
[00:21:03] Annabel Lee: Yeah, right, if you ask.
[00:21:07] Katie Gordon: Should kind of be a bare minimum. Or sometimes we don't necessarily know, right? So at least being like we think it might be something to do with this. Try it if you like it, great, if you don't, please just leave it.
[00:21:20] Annabel Lee: I mean, I do think some breath work slash Pranayama practice, like, it can be a useful thing to, like, it can be and like, breath awareness definitely, I think, can be such a useful tool to have in your toolbox when the shit hits the fan, or when, you know, or sometimes I, do breath stuff if I can't sleep.
[00:21:43] Katie Gordon: Some people hold their breath a lot as well, so even just being like, reminding people not to hold their breath can be really helpful. So these small things can be really useful and breath work as a whole, is really useful and there's loads of great teachers and there's loads of great practices, but it's just as with all things wellness, it's like ripe for monetisation as well.
[00:22:08] Annabel Lee: Yeah, so what do you think we should be looking out for if we were like interested in breathwork?
[00:22:13] Katie Gordon: So, a breathwork teacher that I would trust would be someone who's done some sort of proper qualification. So, as always, I would look at where they qualified. But, again, that means something to me, but it doesn't necessarily mean something to everyone. I would maybe talk about what practices they teach and why they teach them and I think you'd then get a pretty good idea of, like, if they know what they're doing or not. Oh, where did you learn that? Oh, you just got it off Instagram. Okay, interesting and that can, I'm not saying that's like completely awful and should never be done, it can be useful, but it's more helpful to have like some layers of knowledge into that and if you want to do Pranayama, then I think it's a little harder because there's not a lot of it at yoga studios, partly because people don't want to go to like a Panayama class a breathwork class currently. Maybe that will change, but there are teachers who will teach it if you want them to, and there are lots of trainings and online resources and you can try them out. and adapt them and see what works for you. So like if someone's teaching you a four part breath, I would say don't worry too much about the counts, just do your own count and then if you really want to try and get to the four count, try it and see how it feels and if it makes you feel weird or anxious or you don't like it, then just go back to your count. Adapt it to what suits you and if you really want to get to what the traditional practices, then go for it, but it's not like you have to do it exactly like that in order to get any benefit.
[00:23:50] Annabel Lee: Yeah, that's good advice and also that you don't have to do anything in your class that you don't want to do if you don't want to do.
[00:23:58] Katie Gordon: Just try to keep breathing. Like most of us don't breathe properly, but try not to hold your breath is a great start.
[00:24:05] Annabel Lee: And breathe.
[00:24:07] Katie Gordon: So this is our last episode of season three. It's season three, right?
[00:24:12] Annabel Lee: It is season three.
[00:24:14] Katie Gordon: How you feeling?
[00:24:15] Annabel Lee: Yeah, I think we've covered some really interesting topics in this series. I think it's more of the same, isn't it? There's still some things that come up time and time again that we're always seeing and I think the wellness industry just continues to like evolve and new things come up and new trends come up and we want to try new things and some are fun, some are pointless and some are like actually really not good. But I hope that what we can do is have room to almost like step, that's the whole reason that we do this show, right, is that we kind of can step back a little bit and sort of think, oh, is this as good as it says it seems? Or is this just more shit for me to do? Or is this actually something that I might enjoy for a minute or that might help me in a long term thing?
[00:25:06] Katie Gordon: Hopefully a more nuanced look at things that are trending than just like, this is great or this is not. So hopefully it's helpful in navigating the weird and wonderful world of wellness, finding out a bit more about these practices and I feel like I've learnt a lot from working on this season as well.
[00:25:28] Annabel Lee: Yeah, I've enjoyed looking back at, like, some of the history stuff, some of, like, the language stuff that we've looked at this season, because everything we see through our own lens anyway, don't we? We all have a different view on, as we know, like, wellness is so huge. We might be coming at it from our, like, yoga interests and our kind of, you know, specific interests, but other people come at it from, like, maybe nutrition or maybe whatever, however we come at it. But I think there are broad themes in the industry, people want to feel good, people want to try and feel good and try and be happy, ultimately, I think and some of this stuff might help get there, and some of it might just be a complete waste of everything.
[00:26:13] Katie Gordon: Have you got a favourite episode, do you think?
[00:26:16] Annabel Lee: Oh, I did enjoy our episode about Therapy Speak.
[00:26:20] Katie Gordon: That was my favourite episode! Yeah, it was interesting thinking about why we use it and what we might actually be doing when we use it. I thought that was really interesting. but as ever, it's always interesting exploring this world with you, Annabel.
[00:26:34] Annabel Lee: Yeah, and you. Well, thank you for listening to the show. We are on Instagram @wellnessquestioned and we will be checking messages and always up for hearing from you any questions or any hot topics that you've got for us. We love to hear from you.
[00:26:52] Katie Gordon: And that's it from us for this season. Thanks very much for listening and remember to rate and subscribe, please.
[00:27:00] Annabel Lee: And do share the show with anyone that you think might be interested and we'll see you soon. Bye.