In this Tangents episode we speak with STEPHEN DREW, Founder of the Architecture Social. Through his candid and authentic perspective, we explore the importance of embracing change, selling oneself, and the untapped potential architects possess in various industries.
Highlights:
Highlights:
- The importance of selling oneself and leveraging architectural expertise in different industries
- Acknowledge the self-doubt and fear that often accompany career transitions. but take control of your professional life
- Embrace sales and marketing skills to better promote yourself and your work
- Explore different career paths and do not be afraid to deviate from traditional architecture if it doesn't align with your passions
Listen to the end to hear from DAVID BERLEKAMP, AIA from the OOA Community!
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Creators & Guests
What is Tangents by Out of Architecture?
Welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture, hosted by Silvia Lee. We’re highlighting some of our favorite stories from the amazing people we’ve met along our journey. We will hear how they created a unique career path for themselves from the variety of skills and talents they developed in and out of architecture.
Out of Architecture is a career consulting firm started by two Harvard-educated professionals interested in exploring the value of their skills both in and out of the architectural profession. We’re here to help you maximize all of the expertise you have honed as a designer to get you a role that fulfills and challenges you. We have the knowledge, experience, and connections to help you put your best self into the market–and reap the benefits.
Ep 7: Embracing Chaos and Authenticity with Stephen Drew
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Stephen: [00:00:00]
Stephen: I do think though, if you're deeply unhappy in your career, you might not even know it. And that's the other weird thing, isn't it? You might just be frustrated and think this is it. But actually I do think it is liberating to do other things.
Silvia: Welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture. Out of Architecture is a career resource network helping designers apply their incredible talents in untraditional ways. We're highlighting some of our favorite stories from the amazing people we've met along the way. We will hear how they created a unique career path for themselves from the wide variety of skills and talents they developed in and out of architecture.
Silvia: This is your host, Silvia Lee. And I'm excited to share that this season we're highlighting our out of architecture community members. At the end of each episode, you'll hear a little bit from a community member about where they are in their career journey. So make sure you listen to the end.
Silvia: Our guest today is Steven Drew, founder of the [00:01:00] Architecture Social and talent acquisition specialist at EPR architects. Through his candid and authentic perspective, we explore the importance of embracing change, selling oneself and the untapped potential architects possess in various industries.
Silvia: And just a heads up. There'll be some cursing throughout this episode.
Chaotic, Disorganized, Authentic, Passionate
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Silvia: our first question that I like to ask our guests is describe yourself in three words.
Stephen: Chaotic, disorganized, authentic. Passionate. One of them. Gosh. Four of them.
Silvia: We'll use four words then.
Stephen: Yeah, I've broken the rule already, but yeah, out of architecture for anyone that's turned away from architecture, we do break the rules, right?
Stephen: Come on.
Silvia: Oh, of course. And what is your background in architecture?
Stephen: So I used to be, and I will use terms that can be recognized in the UK and the US. However, I used to be [00:02:00] an architectural assistant. Now that is not holding up paper for the architect. Like it sounds that is probably like what you'd call a graduate architect in the U S and I did that for about five years and I got absolutely fed up of doing it.
Stephen: And I thought there must be something else to do it, something else to do on the path that I was on. So I changed. And I left architecture, Sylvia, I'll be honest. But yeah, that is my background in architecture and that was 10 years ago. I am showing my age goodness.
Silvia: Can you share what you're up to now these days?
Stephen: Okay, my goodness. So I used to be hanging around in the architectural practices and I would do anything to get our technical drawings. I would just if there was something like taking the bins out or chatting up a director to talk about how their niece is doing at university to avoid 10 minutes of drawing.
Stephen: I would do it. So I knew what I had to leave architecture and I wasn't too sure what I [00:03:00] would do. So I was talking to my mate and he was a bin manager. And I was like, what do you think about me being a bin coordinator? Yeah. He was like, I don't know if I trust you doing that. And I went, oh, right. Okay. Fair enough.
Stephen: And then the other idea I was like, what about something in sales? I don't know something. Um, and he's like, yeah, you're good at talking. You never shut up. So maybe you'd be good at it. So that's what I did. I went to a recruitment consultancy and I was like, please give me a job. I'll do anything. I'll do anything possible.
Stephen: So I did recruitment for the last 12 years, which is the opposite of what anyone who ever studies architecture ever thinks they're going to do. If you said at the start, when you were learning about Frank Gehry and doing all those drawings and stuff, if you said, yo, you're not going to do that. You're actually going to be a salesperson.
Stephen: I would have looked at you in the eyes and thought you were absolutely crazy. Yeah, I did it. And I do not regret it. So. The long answer to your short question, I'm a recruitment consultant. [00:04:00] Gosh, can you imagine saying at a dinner table, it's a sacrilege, you get kicked out. That's what it
Silvia: was. Tell us more about Architecture
Stephen: Social.
Stephen: Okay, my goodness. I got, I was leading a large recruitment team during the, before the pandemic, and we were doing great. We were doing things the right way. We built up all those relationships and got a good reputation and didn't. He screwed people over and I led a team of five, six people and I got furloughed, which means that basically the pandemic game and my company said, yes, they would really like you, but we don't really have a job for you right now.
Stephen: So then I basically went on Netflix for two, three weeks, felt sorry for myself, got absolutely comatose drunk for a few weeks. And then I was like, all right, I need to do something. Otherwise I'll totally kill myself. And because I've been a high functioning work person for ages and without a job, I don't know what I'll do.
Stephen: So I set up the architecture social and the architecture social at the time was an online forum because there was no [00:05:00] way you could go physically. And it was the chance in the UK to talk a little bit about careers, what you're doing, how to get a job, and that's where it started. The architecture social, it was a little forum for architecture students.
Stephen: And then what I'd noticed was starting, people started coming that I'd never. Forward come like a landscape architect or a senior architect, and then a director. And I was like, my God, you're a proper architect. And so this community grew and then it was initially a forum. And then I think someone of my mates said, Oh, it'd be cool to do a podcast because you guys actually talk a lot of unfiltered rubbish, but also a lot of amazing stuff as well.
Stephen: I was like, yeah, that would be cool. So we did a podcast and then I've always been passioned about websites, so there's a website and a directory, but that's all. Where it started was during the pandemic. So an awful thing. A lot of innovation from it, and anyone still in architecture knows that if it wasn't for the pandemic, you would still be working at your desk five days a week.
Stephen: So that's the story [00:06:00] of the architecture social, which started in the pandemic.
Silvia: I really liked how you said that you would do anything to get out of technical drawing. So it's okay. There's something I don't want to do. There's clearly something else I'm more passionate about. And then just like creating something from a need when there was, that wasn't there before.
Silvia: What do you think it is about architecture and that was that you responded to that you wanted to provide something for.
Stephen: Yeah, really good question. Now, if there's anyone out there that feels the same, you're definitely not alone. For example, I had no interest in technical drawing, and I had one of those movie moments, except Martin Scorsese wasn't filming me, and no one was watching except my mate was there.
Stephen: And I had a really good friend, Barry Higgins, and he is an excellent architect, so shout out to Barry, in Ireland. He is as Irish as that beautiful name sounds, and Barry, one day, who's passionate about architecture, and he was signed up to do his exams, and so I think that's called the ARE in [00:07:00] the US, but in the UK it's called the ARB.
Stephen: And so he was learning all this stuff, and he was, the bosses were away, and He was bossing me around a bit. And I was that rebellious little architect, the cheeky wink. And I was like, Oh mate, I don't want to do all that stuff. And he said, uh, Steve, you got to pay attention to this drawing because in this building, it's a quite a complicated gut written system.
Stephen: You can't just draw it that way. And I think I said something like, you know what, Barry, I don't give a fuck about the gut written system. I really just don't give a fuck. Wow, and then I was like, he looked at me a bit shocked and I was like, no, I'm not having a go at you, you're great, I love you to death, but I just realized that I don't give a shit about this fucking gattering system and I've got to get a new job.
Stephen: So that's what I did. And that was the moment, so I... Absolutely didn't get the thing that some architects have, but it was weird because in university I had good grades and I think I can be quite shrewd in different things. So [00:08:00] where I'm going to with this is that at the time I thought I was a below average architect, there's nothing for me.
Stephen: But then I fell into recruitment, which was a bit of a mess, but it had potential there. And I saw an opportunity as we all do in architects, why we studied it to design it. So I believe you can get your design kicks in architecture without drawing buildings. The way I look at the architecture, social as a business, a lot of those concepts I learned in university, and I really think that you can.
Stephen: You can be a designer without doing a bloody building and work in those long hours. However, yeah, equally for anyone that isn't still an architect here, if you want to do those amazing buildings and change lives and do hospitals and public spaces, I really respect it. I just didn't have. The thing that some people did and I suspect that I'm not the only one, if that makes sense.
Silvia: Yeah, absolutely. [00:09:00] I agree with you when you say that like you felt like an a sub, like par architect, because there's just so much you don't know, like every new project is just I'm at a loss and actually that's the hardest part for me when I have so much unknown that I don't even know where to tackle it.
Silvia: And I never could get used to it or get over it from architecture. And for a long time, I thought it was just me, not this is what always happens, or this is what it's always so I think another part of out of architecture, this podcast and all these resources is that I really want people to understand that it's not just them, these feelings, it's we all feel that way.
Silvia: And maybe we can share our feelings and like, feel better about ourselves.
Stephen: Yeah, absolutely. I do think that I remember when I secretly didn't want to do architecture, I felt like what a failure I was worried, but my parents would think, which is quite ironic as a gay man was more worried about talking about coming out of, I don't want to be an architect than actually talking about something else.
Stephen: So [00:10:00] it was, yeah, it is a weird one. And you know what, actually my dad was incredibly supportive because he was an engineer and he used to work in a factory in the UK and he hated doing the job of being an engineer and he was smoking, because this is back in the old days when you could smoke indoors, he was smoking at that machine and he also would do anything to get out of his task.
Stephen: So he was the one person actually that understood. And I think that the reality is, I wonder in life, because maybe this is the one time we got it right, that do you really want to be watching the clock? Because that's what I would do. I'd be like, Oh God. Get me out of here. And I remember sometimes my bosses would be like Can you, we've got a big deadline coming up.
Stephen: Can you do something? And I would just look for any excuse. I would try to book some meeting in, Oh, I've got an important thing with my family, anything to get out of doing that extra hour. And I think that's because I just didn't give a shit [00:11:00] about it. But I love the people. I love the industry. Ironically, now I set up my own business. I will work longer hours than I did there.
Stephen: So I wonder if it's more because. It wasn't because I didn't have the capacity to work. It's because it didn't interest me. And I think that if you don't have that interest, I think that do you want to do that for the rest of your life?
Stephen: And I really respect like parents who have kids and have to bring in revenue for the house and support that. And listen, I'm not saying everyone can just chuck up their job and move on equally.
Stephen: I do think though, if you're deeply unhappy in your career, you might not even know it. And that's the other weird thing, isn't it? You might just be frustrated and think this is it. But actually I do think it is liberating to do other things.
Stephen: And I do think that architects are criminally undervalued their skill sets. And the other thing that I think is quite terrible as architects, because I think architecture is seen as design, design is seen as vogue, [00:12:00] as seen as doing good for the community and all this stuff. We're actually incredibly bad at selling ourselves.
Stephen: And even that word, I say the word sell. I reckon some listeners will be like, Ooh, sell. Then what does that mean conning someone? Does that mean taking someone? And no, actually marketing is a, I think a much more fabulous world word of basically what is selling. Right. If you say, Oh, we're marketing something.
Stephen: People go, Oh, okay. That's a bit better. But I think that because those architects that were not okay with the idea of selling. What's happened is how fees have been bashed down with deeply bad when it comes to interviewing initially rusty, can't sell yourself, can't promote yourself. And then there's also from that people then might struggle getting salary raises.
Stephen: They might struggle speaking about themselves, showcasing. Their best attributes, not all architects, because I know quite a few that are very good at selling, but those are probably the business owners or the design directors, those people at the [00:13:00] top that do client facing. And they usually don't struggle to get a job because especially if they're engaging with a client.
Stephen: The client's likely to go with them. So I think that as a profession, we need to be okay with talking about commerce, talking about our sales ability to get better, better. More money.
Silvia: Yeah. Did you have to do that for yourself when switching careers, re pivoting yourself to your future employers or your clients?
Stephen: Yeah. Yeah. Good question. So in recruitment, you tend to work with architects and the word for a paying architectural practice would be a client. Exactly like the, what a client is to an architect, someone that's briefed them to do something. And, uh, I found that sometimes. Coming from architecture was a blessing, but also a burden.
Stephen: So a good example would be that if I spoke to a, someone who's looking for a job, just called the [00:14:00] candidate. If I spoke to a candidate, I was more likely to understand what they're looking for because I've worked in a practice, I use Revit. Not very well, but I did use it. And so that was useful. But however, what I found is that when I would work for a famous architectural practice or take a brief on Zaha Hadid or Hefferberg, I would be a little bit enamored because I would be a fan or I've been given this heritage.
Stephen: And what I was doing was that I was discounting my service or I would bend to what the client would want in this world. However. Over time, I actually realized that I had more experience in recruitment. Uh, then the client, therefore not that I should boss them around, because no one likes that. No, no one likes that.
Stephen: However, it was speaking to someone equally to solve a problem rather than going to a fan boy or fan girl where you just start doing what they say, because sometimes I think [00:15:00] that clients respect you. A bit like why they should hire an architect, right? Because you're, you've got that education and you're likely going to make them better design decisions if the client gives you more autonomy.
Stephen: So I think that hindered me and I've had to learn in myself to do that. And also the other thing that I've struggled with is it was very easy to discount. You know, this is the right, but, oh, you're a great practice. I'll give you a bit less. And actually, I think that the problem is then, and you're working on something at a lower rate, and then ultimately the client loses their service.
Stephen: So what I'm trying to say is, as architects, we're very quick to discount ourselves. And I think that's not good. And I did look up to other architects, probably a little bit naively when I should have seen them as equals. When you hire a professional, you hire someone that can fix your problem. You might not like [00:16:00] them, but you think that they're the best person for the role.
Stephen: You don't go to a doctor to become best friends, and you hope that the doctor gives you a discount. You go to the doctor to fix your problem because you've got a pain and you hope that the doctor can tell you what it is, not try to pander to your ego and send you out the door. A bit of an extreme example.
Stephen: But something that I think we all need to think about these
Silvia: days, is there the confidence that comes with years of experience and working with many people over a while that you can look back and reflect and see that you're not that person anymore when you started?
Stephen: Yeah, good question. I'm still learning.
Stephen: I still make a lot of mistakes. I'll be very honest. I am far from perfect. I make more mistakes than then one would like to care to admit. And I think that you have to be okay with that. I don't. Now, how are you going to edit those things in the start where you ask what I am? But I was chaotic and disorganized is definitely how I feel a lot of [00:17:00] the times.
Stephen: I am someone that some people, they make a list when they start stuff. There's no list here. We're running with the ball. And I think that that's quite liberating. But sometimes I just go gung ho and I do things wrong. And I do think that over time, what I would say is by time you get more confident. And it's like doing this podcast.
Stephen: It's like doing a live stream. The first one, I was super nervous. And then the more you do them, the easier it gets. The Rolling Stones, right? They were probably nervous in their first gig. Like the Beatles or whatever and then they've got thousands of people and I always wonder I'm like my goodness How can you go onto a stage and command that presence in front of an audience?
Stephen: Which has so many people and I think it's just over time increasing that number up. And I think that once, once you keep going out there, once you keep pushing yourself, it gets a bit easier. I still have to do things that I'm uncomfortable with. And I think that's part of being a business. But that's also being a [00:18:00] professional, isn't it?
Stephen: Not everything on my day to day, I enjoy. But sometimes it needs to get done. However, I'm not looking at the clock anymore. And like I was 10 years ago, when I was doing my crustacean cad and learning Revit, it just wasn't for me. And I prefer this world, even though I work the longer hours, which initially was my gripe with architecture.
Silvia: Yeah, I asked that question because I feel like you said that architects often discount themselves. And I agree, like just through conversations with my friends, it's like we, we know, or like architects know that they're underpaid or not getting the raises they want, not getting the projects they want, but they're always still a little hesitant to take action.
Silvia: And it's, it's always, I feel like it's until after the fact that it's so obviously obvious and clear that. You should demand what you deserve that they take an action. If you talk to your friends, they've already, they already know that about you, like that you should [00:19:00] take an action.
Stephen: Just to add to that point, I can say all this now and people will think, Oh my goodness, but it's taken years to work this stuff out.
Stephen: And I don't know if anyone's been in therapy. I had therapy many years ago for a different business that I was involved with my first business, because it was an abusive work arrangement. Um, and I didn't know it at the time. And the thing is when you're in therapy, the therapist is trying to say this stuff.
Stephen: And then sometimes they would point blank, tell me and I go, I'm not too sure. And it took six months to a year to arrive at something that I accepted. It's a bit like the film Inception, and it goes through the whole film, and they plant this little seed, and it was all about getting the person to believe it.
Stephen: However, if the person realized that You planted the seed, they would reject the idea. And I've done career coaching, which I know that you offer in, in, out of architecture and I'm really pleased that you do. And I still do it now and then, but career coaching I thought was extremely [00:20:00] tough because sometimes to getting someone to get to that trajectory is incredibly odd.
Stephen: Hats off to you and they've, the person's gotta also want to do it. And that's what I always find with career coaching is quite interesting. So now I do the opposite than where I can do career coaching. My rate is deliberately high, and that is because all of my content is for free. So I say, listen, just do it all.
Stephen: But if you really want to pay me, I will hold you accountable. And I think that a lot of it is accountability. And then I also do the other thing where I'm like, listen, I'm going to tell you things. Are you ready? And they go, yes. And I go, all right, we'll do it then. But I'm the opposite. So I am the, the hardest to pay career coach in architecture.
Silvia: Yeah, that makes sense. And It is very hard. Like I was in the same place too, just like switching from one architecture [00:21:00] job to another. Yeah. Probably spent too many years there, but it's hard to accept things. And I don't even know why. I guess it's like you said a few times it's tied to your worth feeling like a failure.
Stephen: Yeah, now listen, when I say all this, I'm definitely not perfect. I've been on a diet for ages, there's all this stuff happening, and something so illogical like losing weight, stop eating, doesn't work like that in the real world, isn't it? I'm stressed, I'm just having a little coffee and a sandwich, and then before you know it...
Stephen: You're doing this thing. That's why, why I would say is I know I was talking about career coaching, they're saying, don't pay me. But like when I do it, I am sympathetic to the person because it's not easy when you're in architecture, you've been doing it, like you said, for 10, 20 years, and you think, and you've done all these amazing buildings and you've got a family.
Stephen: But you're just not passionate about it. And you know, at that point, you're not too sure how to get out of it, or maybe you're asking for a raise or whatever. So I really understand, and it's very easy for someone to come out and make decisions, which is why [00:22:00] I do think this, why you should really work out which career coach you want to go with.
Stephen: And I know that out of architecture, I think really helps if someone's done that. So out of architecture, I've read, I'll be very honest. I've read three quarters of the out of architecture book and it was really good. It was a book I needed 10 years ago though. So I'm glad it's there. I'm glad it's there.
Stephen: I was just more listening. Oh yeah. Been there. Okay. Yep. Yep. So I'm really glad that that's there because I do think because. And I'm looping around again, but it's really important. I wonder whether it's a prestige thing in architecture, it's a pride thing in architecture, or it's initially seen as not glamorous to do, to go away from architecture.
Stephen: But I think it's more interesting now to deviate from architecture. Like I think architects, when they go into other industries are actually incredibly good. It could be journalism. Maybe you're an architect that does like to write. Now it's not me, but where [00:23:00] architecture for me has been great is in my business because I look at things differently than any other recruiter by far, because I see it like solving the problem, like BIM, make the process easier, and all that nuances, but I also have a friend who was a programmer, so he does like all the websites for Lloyds bank, all the programming.
Stephen: And it's really fascinating all the avenues that you can go into. You just have to have the guts. To do it, which is really scary. I
Silvia: think the conversation around just like people and their career decisions in architecture has always felt very narrow, even from school. It's like the types of jobs or internships that you get to do.
Silvia: Like they're very similar, but also like people only talk about them as, and you have to chase big names and big projects and cool projects. And so if you grow up into that, like. conversation, you never think anything else because you're just, because you really don't know anything when you start out in architecture.
Silvia: So I'm really hoping [00:24:00] that these conversations that we're having on this podcast can share with more people, all the cool things that people with this architectural background can do. And I agree, like how you said that architects make great other career, like other architects who's changed. That's not really like a common.
Silvia: Topic, but I wish it was because there are so many things that architects can
Stephen: offer. Yeah, even just recruitment, which has seen this. Oh, oh my God. Why would you do that? It's like snake oil and all this stuff. I think that the way I see it is that actually there's an opportunity to do a lot of goods and because the bar is so low to begin with.
Stephen: Which sounds, it sounds a bit crazy, but I saw it as a massive opportunity and I'm a big believer that you can't, there's a bit like career coaching we talked about earlier, you can't push people to do things that they don't want to do. That ultimately is the secret behind sales, because if you push someone into a job that they don't want, they're probably going to, it's.
Stephen: Give up after a little [00:25:00] while, I quite learned that quite quickly. And because you know, the industry, you have a passion that no one else has. And, and the way I would look at problems was like no one else. And I don't mean that as better because actually there were better salespeople than me who made more money than me.
Stephen: So I'm not saying I was the best, but I was unique. And my, one of my old managing directors. Used to like the way I looked at things. And whenever I see architects that go off into different businesses or architects that sometimes stay in architecture, but do other stuff as well, an architect in the UK called Doug and Mark is called Joe Morris.
Stephen: Used to be at Doug and Morris and now he's at Morrison co and I was listening to his talk last week and he has a vegan restaurant because he realized his veganism is important to him. And then he got his architecture brain and he made this beautiful restaurant, which actually lowers people's footprint of carbon in the, in, in the world.
Stephen: So I thought that was quite impressive. And as well as that, there's like loads of musicians and stuff that have, I think Pink Floyd [00:26:00] used to study architecture. And thank goodness he didn't cause I really, they didn't, one of them didn't because I really liked their music. So I just think a deviating from architecture can be amazing.
Stephen: The other one that I don't think other people talk about much, but is pretty good is that architects who remain in the industry, but do stuff different. So I, I, one of the financial directors that I know studied architecture. Didn't want to do architecture, but became a financial director of an architecture practice.
Stephen: That, that was a really, I'm sure they're on a lot of money. First of all, if that's your big priority, however, that education was priceless to an architecture practice. And then they can offer a different skill to an art in an architecture practice. Even like BIM coordinators is, I think was the early renegades going away from architecture to Uh, do this kind of stuff as well as computational designers.
Stephen: But now as well, you have the proctect industry and you have AI and all this stuff. So rather than going, Oh, [00:27:00] AI is going to take my job. Then actually maybe you're one of the people in architecture that does something with AI and moves away. There's loads of these digital companies, digital tech companies in architecture and that are popping up.
Stephen: And I think there'll only be more to be honest. Yeah, you
Silvia: mentioned before about breaking the rules, and I wish people would embrace that more. I think between the deadlines and liability, it would make people hesitant to do new things. But at the same time, this industry desperately needs people to break the news and rules and just change it up for the
Stephen: better.
Stephen: Yeah, absolutely. There's so many examples. I think the one of the kind of a crappy sounding expression, but it's very true is do now and apologize later. And I do think that attitude and I have to be careful how I say it. I don't mean doing anything illegal or rude or hurting people's feelings. What I mean is that people I think are often too shy to put themselves out there.
Stephen: And I, one of the comments I [00:28:00] get with even doing this podcast is something like, what if you say something that you're deeply could be picked up on later? And I just think that if you stay close to your core truths, then the reality is, even if something can be a little bit misconstrued, I think if you constantly are out there and you're saying your opinions and trying to do good, then the reality is.
Stephen: People won't answer you. I think that cancel culture is the number one imaginative problem that people have. They're like, Oh my gosh, I can't say that. Or if my practice sees it or, Oh my goodness, I can't participate. And actually it's the opposite. I think that there's strength from being out there.
Stephen: There's strength in doing these things. And if something initially makes you uncomfortable, then it's something that you should really do. I used to hate public speaking and the, uh, the idea of asking a question was very scary. I'd be in like a seminar and all this stuff. And someone would ask a question and I'd look at them like, wow, [00:29:00] how can you be so like comfortable?
Stephen: And I still, well, it's mad. While I do all these talks, I still struggle with like asking questions because I'm always worried. Oh, well, that made me feel stupid. And that is a really weird thing that we all have as people. There's a sales trainer that I follow in the UK who's so controversial. I don't really agree with many of his values in terms of like how he dresses, his views.
Stephen: I think it's His name is Benjamin Dennehy, and it's like the world's most UK, world's most hated sales trainer. But what he was saying, one thing that I really resonates with, what is what I think that we have as architects, we're always worried about if we will be perceived in the wrong. You know, when you have your parents when they're younger and they say, Oh, you shouldn't bother someone who's busy.
Stephen: That's rude. And I think that because we do stuff like that, we don't ask pay for pay rises. We don't communicate ideas, which we disagree [00:30:00] with. We don't want to bother people. And I think that's what I had for years. We would be like, Oh, I can't speak to someone. I can't ask that question. That would be stupid.
Stephen: You, why, why would you interfere? And then I think that we slowly have to unpack that. And let that go. And that's why I would encourage people to do. And this theme that we're going, the last thing I'd saying in it, before you open up to another question is that like this, this feeling of, Oh, I can't ask a question in public because I could be perceived as stupid.
Stephen: I think that is the same, like feeling that a lot of people have moving away from architecture. They think I can't do that because. That would mean I'm stupid or a failure and I think that's the one that used to really hurt me was the feeling of being a failure after doing all those years in architecture.
Stephen: Are you a failure? Whereas I think if I didn't go away from it, I would have regretted it. And I think that's what's so important about architecture. It's not even, it's not about getting a few thousand pounds more [00:31:00] that helps and it's great if you can help someone do that. But I think it's more about.
Stephen: Stopping people from just completely losing their fucking soul and feeling they're a failure, but not being able to escape the current situation they're in, whereas I think that we should celebrate when people deviate from clear trajectory, which we all know. What to expect. And if you do something different, maybe you really enjoy it.
Silvia: Yeah, I like that. Once a guest said they know how hard it is to go through architecture school. So if you change careers, you know, they know, like they were saying, I know how hard it is, like for you. So props to you. And then now adding to what you just said. like celebrating that because also that means like you said you're taking control of and you're creating something you're creating the life you want versus doing projects that probably someone else was telling you what to do and following like a previous [00:32:00] project of what to complete for the most part it's like taking control is so powerful and that's amazing and everyone should feel empowered to do that.
Stephen: Yeah, exactly. And just for, it's going to be hard. And I think that I'm not saying it's all fairy tales and there is always a risk of failing, but equally isn't remaining or doing the same, sometimes a failure. I think that we have to challenge ourselves and that's what good architects do, right? And we can do it in different ways.
Stephen: So I would always encourage people. To do that and probably sooner is better than later. I think that it gets harder when you've got certain constraints on later in your career. But equally, it's never too late on the other end of the scale. Ricky Gervais, again, another comedian where sometimes it's not funny.
Stephen: Sometimes it can be a bit annoying. Ricky Gervais is the one that goes to the USA, but Hollywood and all that stuff. And he did something which I really resonated with where. He basically explains [00:33:00] in a tweet that it's never too late. And I think the reason he's the way, because the office, the original office in the UK, he wrote it when he was in his forties.
Stephen: And I think he said something like pissed around in my twenties, in my thirties, I went to get a real job. In my forties, I quit my real job. And in my fifties, I decided I wanted to get healthy and I did it. And he said, it's never too late. Just do it. And I think that's true. He wrote The Office in his forties.
Stephen: And now he's whatever you think about Ricky Gervais, he's successful in a lot of ways. And, uh, if he just stayed in his real job in his thirties, he would have been, I can't remember what he was like, like some, I don't even know what he was. I think he was doing something before being a comedian and, uh, the world wouldn't know what his work is.
Stephen: If you're a listener there and dabbling with him, I think the real question that you have to have, which isn't going to be pretty, and it's a bit, it's uncomfortable. [00:34:00] You've got to hold the ugly mirror up and you got to say. It is better for me staying where I am now or doing something else. However, if I stay where I am, am I going to be resentful of myself in the future or not?
Stephen: And I think that for me, I had that feeling where I was like, you know what? My uncomfortableness with moving away from architecture is unbalanced with the fear of doing something that I didn't want to do. And it has taken many years. And the other thing now, I'm more, always more interested in other people's stories, but.
Stephen: You could say in theory, the architecture social is getting more successful. It's actually been years of doing like lots and lots of mistakes, and there's still quite a fragile business and it's still not perfect. And I'm still learning. So I think that the last point I would say is that we're also very, as humans, we always like look on.
Stephen: That's why I try to stay away from Instagram as [00:35:00] much as possible and stuff, because you look there and you see a beautiful person in a beautiful life. And. You think, Oh my God, my life is completely crap compared or whatever, because my knees ache and I'm stressed out and I've got to go to work and my employee's in there sick and someone's screaming.
Stephen: Oh, you got all that stuff going on, but you don't really see what's behind that picture. And I think that as human beings, we always look at the end goal and we go, Oh. That would be nice, but whatever. And I think you've got to work towards it. But equally, isn't the journey there more interesting? You know what I mean?
Stephen: Lord of the Rings. Is it like just putting some bloody rings in the hill? Or is it the journey going through? And I don't think the Hobbits enjoyed the journey. Do you know what I mean? But there was a few laughs, a few highs and lows. But that's what it is, isn't it? There's no such thing as a quick fix.
Stephen: And we all eventually have to come to conclusions about what we want to do or live with the consequences. And the last thing, cause I know I'm going [00:36:00] on a tangent. Wow. That's the name of the thing, isn't it? I'm going on a tangent, but basically do you want to be that person that's old and just whinges about what they could have been and what they should have been?
Stephen: Or do you want to be that person when you're older who inspires people by saying, do you know what, I did something different. I fucked this up. I enjoyed this. I lost this job. I made my own business. I left architecture. I did pottery. And then you. You had this really cool story or do you want to be the person that says, yeah, I just stayed in architecture.
Stephen: I gotta be honest. I never really was interested. I don't know. I was a bit lost and yeah. I know what conversation I'd find more interesting to listen to.
Silvia: I, when I went on your YouTube, I saw that you did some like resume, like workshops advice. And I feel like one part of switching careers, that's also hard is taking your architecture resume, even making a resume, like about your past projects, even that's hard, even though like, you [00:37:00] know, it like it's the reflecting part and like distilling those points that you want to share.
Silvia: And then now doing that as changing careers is even harder. Are you starting from scratch or you really have to reflect so hard to look into what you did and find the value because I don't think we do that normally. So, yeah, tell me more about
Stephen: that process. Yeah, very interesting. And you're right. I do think sometimes on my tombstone will be here like Stephen Drew, who will tell you who knows the answer to how many.
Stephen: Pages should be in a resume because I get asked it all the time and I enjoy it. Okay. I love giving tips upon that. Where that gets interesting is because I've done the profession and because I've been in recruitment, I've seen a lot of what works, what doesn't. So that really is a niche in the niche. And I guess that's what over time I've become to respect.
Stephen: If going back to your question though, yeah, I've, it's funny that the CVs that I've done, I wouldn't recommend I do everything the way I did. Yeah, it's, [00:38:00] you could say that's hypocritical, but I also say that it's just evolving, isn't it? I look back and sometimes I'm like, Oh my goodness, look at this is terrible.
Stephen: This and that, but also a bit, like you said, how do you do a CV in a different sector? And what's quite funny is that as architects were like, this CV needs to be beautiful and we need to add this portfolio. And I will spend a lot of time talking about portfolios because it's so important for architecture.
Stephen: But when I moved to recruitment, no one gave a shit about my portfolio. It was hilarious. It was quite funny. They were more like, yeah, okay, here's a cv. And the the first thing that I ever went to, they just circled one word and it was Revit. And they said, oh, do you know bim? Oh my God, could you do recruitment for bim?
Stephen: And I was like, yeah, I know Revit. And they looked at me like a fire and went, whoa, you're gonna be the BIM specialist. I was like, well, I've only used it for two months, but Okay. And that was it. There was no one looking at my portfolio and I had a sheet on the back, which is a condensed version showing one of the buildings I had.
Stephen: And [00:39:00] honestly, they, they didn't even bloody look at it. So, yeah, when you go to different professions, I think that you, there's certain things you, you lose, but also there's also what I would say is there's certain things I really like. So for example, in recruitment. Most recruiters, and especially the high builders, build more money than me.
Stephen: They're not very, they don't give a shit about how things look and all that stuff. And I think that I like to keep a little bit of that because I'm like, I did bloody study architecture and I do like how things look and that sometimes has a strength. So for example. The architecture social website is something that I built.
Stephen: I would never build another website again because I have nearly lost my personal relationship with my partner, driving them insane, doing things late at night. It's gone wrong. It's gone right. I've learned all this different skillset and that becomes from being an architect and I'm, and it's so powerful then in my business when I don't have to rely on a web developer.[00:40:00]
Stephen: If something goes wrong or not, I can kind of work it around. However, I don't want to be an expert on web design. I just want to do enough. To get where I want to go. And I think that's what makes us architects really special is that we're actually very bloody adaptive. When you study architecture, you do, you got to write essays, you got to do drawings, you got to give presentations.
Stephen: That's the one that no one talks about. It's actually crits or what they call it in the UK, where you got to stand up and you just get slaughtered. And I think that's a really good, like practice for life, but you are right. You have to be prepared to untangle the stuff, but occasionally you bring what you know to something different and you add a lot of value and then people look around at you like, my God, who is this guy?
Stephen: And you're like, that's right motherfuckers. I studied architecture and you better not forget it. You know what I mean?
Silvia: I feel like we just care so much like current architects, former architects. It's like, you can take any detail and we will build an [00:41:00] entire, like everything around it.
Silvia: Like I remember once I took an art class and we had to build a model of an art gallery to put the works of art in.
Silvia: And I literally built the art gallery, like to scale using like the correct pieces of textured paper and stuff. And we were like. Like people just didn't even build it correctly. Like, cause they didn't care. But I feel like architects just care so much and we will enjoy like the care that we put into things.
Stephen: I agree. It's a, it's our biggest attribute and it can also be our biggest downfall. Everyone's got the friend that was struggled to do the submissions. And they didn't manage to do it and I'm like, Oh, the first few pages were amazing. But what happened? I ran out of time. You're like, Oh, mate, if only we ever saw that project, but at the same time, those pages were cool.
Stephen: Just have to learn to do it all right. And then I think that's [00:42:00] something that we just have to remember, but the amount of skills. Like the, do you know what the cool kids call it now skill stacks like, Oh, I can do this and this and this and this and this and this. And I'm like, dude, being an architect, you can do everything you're on site.
Stephen: You're dealing with again, builders, my gods, if there's anything more difficult to speak to as people on site, I have so much respect for architects, how they can just go there and be like, you can't build that shit like that because I'm telling you it won't work. Basically they say it nicer than that.
Stephen: And I'm like, yes. And then go to in a presentation, doing a technical detail, how the heck can people do all that? But they do amazing. And then architects, then they do presentations and videos and parametric design. It's like the coolest people in the world. I know our architects yet. We have such a low value of ourselves, low self esteem, charge so little, design the whole building, and the client fucks us over and puts the fee down, [00:43:00] so I have so much respect, and I think because I have so much respect for architects, that's why I'm a Brutally honest with what I say, I'm just, I very rarely meet a good businessman who's an architect.
Stephen: No, hardly any businessman I know as cool as an architect. So maybe there's something in there.
Silvia: What is your favorite piece of advice that you'd like to give to architects?
Stephen: Favorite piece of advice? I give out so many. The one I feel at the moment, and we'll go with that. Don't be afraid to sell yourself, your worth and your projects.
Stephen: Be bold and be loud and be proud. There you go. Yeah.
Silvia: That's like the rallying cry of this conversation.
Stephen: Yeah. The chaos and bit disorganized, but hopefully there's something there. There's a bit of charm here. I occasionally have a few thoughts of wisdom and if you are the listener, you found it, then I'm pleased.[00:44:00]
Silvia: Yeah. I'm really hoping that some of our listeners will. really resonate with you because this is the first time someone has described themselves as chaotic and disorganized because everyone's, I'm a problem solver. I am like critical thinker or like very detailed or creative, which everyone is all of these things.
Silvia: But yeah, this is for everyone else out there.
Stephen: Yeah. This is for us human beings, which aren't perfect. And I'm definitely one of them. Let me tell you now my partner will give you a whole list of things. I'm not perfect on. And I'll tell you what. He ain't wrong.
Silvia: I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Steven as much as I did now let's hear from Dave from the O O a community.
David: So, my name is Dave Berlekamp, and I am a practicing architect in Cleveland, Ohio, and I'm. Currently working for the Cleveland Clinic's internal design studio, which focuses on the design and integration of all of our buildings [00:45:00] across our many campuses.
Silvia: You made a slight shift in your career to the client side, is that correct?
Silvia: Yeah. How did that come about, or what's the story there?
David: Yeah, so I was practicing in traditional practice for about 10 years. At the time, I was finishing a pretty large project that I've been involved in for a number of years, and it was a great project to be involved in. But I was feeling, I think, both A little bit drawn to having a little bit more connection to end users and looking for more of a connection to the people.
David: I was actually designing for at the time. It was a mixed use more of a developer spec office kind of building. And so I was really looking to get more of a direct connection to people that I could be designing for. And at the same time, just also not feeling like my value was really being recognized how I thought it, maybe should have been, and so an opportunity kind of fell on my lap. There was literally just a weekly AIA newsletter and then the job postings. I saw that the Cleveland Clinic had [00:46:00] advertisement out for an architect. So that piqued my interest. And after having some conversations with people, it seemed like it was a really unique and good opportunity for me.
David: I took the leap.
Silvia: I love how it happened organically. In a way, and I feel like a lot of these opportunities, they give you glimpses of it, and it's like up to you to take them on. Yeah. What about this kind of resonated with you?
David: So I think actually, it's interesting that it just... Truly fall into my lap just on a, on an average Wednesday.
David: But I think that there were prior experiences that I had throughout my professional experience that really set me up to be open to that. I, in addition to architecture, I have a background in urban design. And so in grad school, I was able to connect with a lot of both architects and non architects working in roles that really had a lot of impact on.
David: Either on the civic level or on a smaller community level, or just even just within institutions and organizations. [00:47:00] So I think that kind of primed me or taking on an opportunity like this. There were definitely a number of kind of examples and role models throughout my career early on that kind of showed me like, hey, you can be an architect, but also not be at a firm and practice architecture outside of a firm.
David: I think that really helped prime me to take on an opportunity like this.
Silvia: Do you have any advice for your younger self?
David: I think, probably the, the biggest piece of advice I would give is to just be curious and keep asking questions. And, and by that, there's, and I found this just in the past several years.
David: Is just really wanting to get drive, not taking things at just surface level, but really understand why things are the way they are, why things work the way they work, why businesses are structured the way they are, why buildings are structured the way they are. I think having a really good understanding of that.
David: [00:48:00] Early on and just instilling that level of inquiry and the attitude of inquiry. I think it really opens up a lot of opportunities and helps drive a lot more discoveries down the road. So earlier you can start doing that. I think the better.
Silvia: Yeah, absolutely. I feel similarly that, like, when, as an architect in school, as a student, like, when I started being asking more inquisitive questions, like, my brain just got unlocked and my projects I could think through deeper.
Silvia: And now I've come to realize that I think it's like our understanding and the way we see everything, but through the lens of our own experiences and ourselves and that curious inquisitive process is the beauty of what we offer as architects.
David: Yeah, absolutely.
Silvia: Yeah. So thanks for that reminder. It's always nice to check in with that.
Silvia: anything from your out of architecture experience personal to you that may not be expected?
David: I think probably the biggest thing. That I've been [00:49:00] attentive to and just, I think really just aware of is just how our identity as architects or designers or creatives is so much more dependent on and driven by who we are.
David: And I think it's certainly informed and influenced by where we work and who our bosses and who our colleagues are, but I think really just our identity. As architects is I think really a reflection of ourselves. And so I think just being true to your own authentic self and having your work really showing up in an authentic way to your work, I think is really just something that's important.
David: And I think just goes beyond just who your current employer is or what firm you're working for or whatever. I think that's something that I've been more and more aware of. And it was something that I think was instilled in me. That I was in, in the outer [00:50:00] architecture book, I think it really resonated with me of just some of those early professional and design studio experiences of just what some of just that, that sort of pressure to land at a.
David: Procedures job or and that kind of becomes your identity. And I think just over the course of time, you realize that it's really about who you are. Your work is a reflection of you in so many ways. And so really just trying to be authentic to yourself and develop yourself. That's been the big thing that the opportunities I've had to step out of traditional practice has given me that.
David: Pause just in my career to really realize that and also just connect with other people, other really talented, um, professionals, both in and out of the profession, architecture profession, um, that have, you know, a long accomplished career and just realizing that so much of who they are isn't really.
David: Driven by the fact that they're at this prestigious firm, but it's really about that they've crafted this lifetime of this life. That's [00:51:00] it. That's their kind of creative project is just establishing or creating that, that, that wonderful life that they have. So,
Silvia: and so you feel more connected now to who you are as a, like working professional now than before.
David: I think it's, it forced me to think about my own identity more, whereas I think previously it was always, I'm an architect at this firm or I'm an architect at this firm. Now, while I'm an architect at the Cleveland Clinic, even if it, that kind of prompts a lot of questions and what do you do and why do you do that kind of thing?
David: And it, I think for me, it really started prompting myself to ask the question, what does it mean for me to be just. An architect anywhere and a thing and I think because I think that's an important thing for people architects, especially to really reflect on and and it's not something I don't think you ever really fully answer.
David: But it's something that I think it's good to keep reflecting on.
Silvia: Yeah, I can see it now because when [00:52:00] you choose a career that's. untraditional or atypical, then you have to do a little more explaining. But then the explaining you're doing is all unique to yourself and the very specific decisions you chose to mold that path versus following a path before.
Silvia: And it probably didn't always feel completely like a fit because it wasn't the path you necessarily chose for yourself. Right.
David: Yeah, exactly.
Silvia: Yeah, that's beautiful. Thank you.