EP 49 - HEED This: Reading Body Language, Running Investigations, and What Counterintelligence Teaches HR with Derik Clark

Tony and Steve welcome Derik Clark — Army counterintelligence veteran, body language expert, and apparently a crowd favorite on par with Steve (high praise). Derik breaks down his HEED framework for reading nonverbal cues in HR investigations and job interviews, and why the thing you think you're seeing (lying) is almost never the thing you're actually seeing (discomfort). He also shares the true story of an Iraqi weapons smuggler who had perfect body language… until someone asked him where he was getting his money. Tony connects the dots to workplace investigations, written warnings, and why 80% of every workplace conflict story is actually the same from both sides. Steve didn't know Rocky Raccoon was a song, which tells you everything you need to know.

Learn more about Derik Clark at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/derikclark/
Learn more about Fantastic Tony Benjamin at: https://www.thegrangellc.com/
Learn more about Steven "Big Deal" Smith at: https://thehiringtreebook.com/
Learn more about the Books mentioned on the podcast at: https://thehiringtreebook.com/hr-life-podcast
Learn more about MegastarHR at: https://www.megastarhr.com/
Learn more about Pucks for Autism at: https://www.pucksforautism.com/

Derik Clark is a veteran counterintelligence officer who served in the US Army and now works as an HR business partner and consultant.  He's an expert interrogator that specializes in how to read people and the room. 


Derik's HEED Framework:
Hide
Escape
Ease
Defend
(How people react when they feel uncomfortable.)  

Creators and Guests

Host

Fantastic Tony Benjamin

I am a unique HR leader with more than 20 years’ experience working for some of Utah’s oldest, fastest growing, and most well-known companies. My experience includes Superior Drilling Products, Air Medical Resource Group, Control4, Ovivo USA and Deseret Book. I am a regionally recognized authority on building successful cultures and am an alumni speaker at DisruptHR SLC and DisruptHR St. George. I have earned an MBA from the University of Phoenix, a Bachelor’s degree from Utah State University, and am a certified Professional of Human Resources (PHR). I'm married to a woman out of my league, have three brilliant kids I doesn’t deserve and, although I travel a lot, live in Vernal, Utah.

Host

Steven "Big Deal" Smith

Steve will be the first to tell you that recruiting is marketing. He earned his Bachelor of Science in Finance at Brigham Young University and started his career in recruiting in Feb 2005. In 2008, he took a risk during a recession to help start a new company with Ryan Kohler, called ApplicantPro, a full suite HR platform for small to mid-sized businesses. In March 2025, ApplicantPro became iSolved Talent Acquisition, now serving 177,000 clients and close to 9800 employees. Before the merger, ApplicantPro made the Inc 5000 list 12 years in a row, Top Places to work in Utah 3 years in a row, and Steve was named the Small Business Utah HR Achievement Award winner in May 2024. iSolved was also named an Indeed Platinum Partner in 2023, 2024, and 2025 and is one of only ten ATS platforms in the country to obtain that designation. SHRM-CP & PHR certified, Steve currently volunteers on the Utah SHRM State Council as the immediate past State Executive Director. His book, The Hiring Tree: Laws of Applicant Attraction, was released in early 2023, and has helped thousands of organizations across the country rethink their approach to hiring. If you need help understanding the principles and role of SEO, marketing, and AI when it comes to attracting job seekers, Steve provides a solid framework for hiring effectively.

What is The HR Life Podcast?

The HR Life Podcast is a show about the work-life experience of those of us in Human Resources and business leadership. This long-form podcast is a conversation, casual, and not always the corporate line. Hosts and guests touch on everything from serious or even controversial topics to the absurdity of modern American business practices. Your hosts are Tony Benjamin, owner and founder of The Grange Strategic HR Consulting, and Steven J. Smith, Author of The Hiring Tree: Laws of Applicant Attraction and all-around important guy. Guests include the best minds in the HR world. Join the show weekly.

Tony Benjamin (00:07.517)
you

Welcome to the HR Life Podcast, a podcast about the work life experience of those of us in human resources and business leadership. Your hosts are fantastic Tony Benjamin, owner and founder of the Grange Strategic HR Consulting, and Stephen Bigdeel Smith, who is so famous that when he and Johnny C. Taylor speak at the same event, people only remember Steve. Hey, Steve!

Steve-o (00:36.27)
my word.

Tony Benjamin (00:39.485)
Am I right? Am I right?

Steve-o (00:42.72)
I I guess. I don't know. Sometimes he says some pretty important stuff. It depends on the audience. So.

Tony Benjamin (00:49.703)
Well, I know about what a week and a half ago or whatever it was at JAG when you were there, there were press pictures of you getting an award, but not many pictures of Johnny C. Taylor. Just saying, you know, to put it all in perspective.

Steve-o (01:02.778)
I'm going to clarify though, it was not an award. It was a recognition for voluntary service that I've been providing for the last five years. But that was a fun conference. That was a fun conference.

Tony Benjamin (01:12.367)
Right. Right. And there's a huge difference. There's a there's a very huge difference. So yeah, yeah. Thanks for clarifying that for us.

Steve-o (01:19.65)
Very huge. Yes, yes. just wanted to be very, I don't want any of our listeners to think that I'm just getting these awards all over the place. That's just, it's just bad.

Tony Benjamin (01:28.423)
But did Johnny C. Taylor get a hug from the guy handing out the awards or announcing the awards? I don't think so. See?

Steve-o (01:33.474)
He did not, especially because the two people he were speaking with were both female students. And so that probably would have been inappropriate if I'm being honest.

Tony Benjamin (01:42.333)
Yeah, potato, potato, statutory, whatever, you know, it's, okay. I saw no big deal. There's no difference. So you're fine. All right. Well, there in the background, not making a sound or anything is Derek Clark joining us. Wait, welcome to the podcast, Derek.

Steve-o (01:46.381)
Hahaha!

Steve-o (02:04.278)
Yay!

Derik Clark (02:05.278)
What's that Fabric? How much is much is Steve apparently, cause listening to that audio.

Tony Benjamin (02:16.142)
Say that again, say that again.

Derik Clark (02:18.18)
no, just like the audience has given me the reception that like I'm like I'm a crowd favorite there like Steve.

Tony Benjamin (02:22.535)
Yeah.

You are see that we just they yeah Steve held up a pause sign they paused for a second. You got to watch out for some of the people trying to jump over that velvet rope that protects you from them. We've had some guests crowd surf but they're not as famous as you. So there you go.

Steve-o (02:27.008)
Absolutely.

Derik Clark (02:42.728)
Yeah, like everyone wants to be me.

Tony Benjamin (02:47.335)
That's right. There's a Beatles song like that.

Steve-o (02:49.058)
But see, Derek can tell when they're just lying, you know, or at least uncomfortable. So there you go. We'll get into that, right?

Tony Benjamin (02:53.277)
That's right. That's right.

Derik Clark (02:57.31)
It's like, you're not really a fan. I know.

Tony Benjamin (03:01.465)
That's right. Now there's, there's, there's the Beatles. So there's a song that the Beatles have called Everybody's Trying to Be My Baby. And which I thought is one of the coolest songs they've ever sang. But the rumor in the discussion is, although Paul McCartney denies he ever saw it personally, but the rumor is, is that the floor when they would get done was all

Steve-o (03:01.957)
That's right.

Tony Benjamin (03:27.421)
caked in urine and stuff because all the girls screaming and kind of losing a little control. So yeah.

Steve-o (03:31.049)
What?

Derik Clark (03:32.574)
mean, well, the rumor that he also denied was that he was dead. so we had some liability issues.

Tony Benjamin (03:38.813)
Well, yeah, yeah, he denied that one. Right. That's right. is some credibility issues. did.

Steve-o (03:46.658)
I mean, coming back from the dead is pretty impressive.

Derik Clark (03:48.472)
No, no, no, I'm alive, I didn't die.

Tony Benjamin (03:51.773)
That's right. Yep. Yep. That's you know, but he did walk across the street in bare feet. That's what started that particular rumor. So hey.

Derik Clark (03:57.694)
Yeah.

He's the Paul Bearer, Paul McCartney the Paul Bearer.

Tony Benjamin (04:05.756)
That's, you know, I feel like we could go on all day long. So if anybody ever wants a fun song that Paul McCartney did where he sings in an American accent, try the Rocky Raccoon. Hilarious song from the white album.

Derik Clark (04:20.348)
Yeah, it's like a, like like a, almost like a southern, like a little bit of southern accent.

Tony Benjamin (04:25.447)
Yeah, it's a hillbilly tune. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steve-o (04:27.136)
Wait, he did this in like a southern drawl?

Derik Clark (04:29.798)
Yeah, a little bit.

Tony Benjamin (04:30.237)
Yeah, he does it. He doesn't an American accent. It's hilarious. So let me tell you a story about a man named Rocky raccoon. Yeah. One day his woman ran off with another guy hit poor Rocky and the I rocky didn't like that. It's just like that. It's a little bit higher in tone, but that's it's hilarious. So

Steve-o (04:32.054)
Wow

Steve-o (04:49.74)
What a weird song.

Steve-o (04:54.522)
You know, songs to me, have to have really good lyrics and meaning to them, and that just didn't feel like it had any meaning whatsoever.

Tony Benjamin (05:00.701)
Well

Derik Clark (05:02.16)
It's one of those stories where Rocky and some other guy are fighting over a girl. So it's like an old west style.

Tony Benjamin (05:14.311)
Yeah, his girlfriend, her name was McGill. She called herself Lil, but everyone knew her as Nancy. Yep.

Steve-o (05:15.32)
Hence the southern drawl.

Steve-o (05:26.146)
You know that song way too well.

Tony Benjamin (05:29.169)
Well, it's a great song. It's a great song. That's right. That's right.

Derik Clark (05:31.181)
Once it's in your head though, then you can't get it out. It's just... I just walk down the street and...

Steve-o (05:33.974)
It just sticks.

Tony Benjamin (05:40.925)
That's right, only to find Gideon's

Steve-o (05:41.848)
Man.

I think this is the first time on the episode I have felt left out.

Derik Clark (05:49.01)
Ha ha!

Tony Benjamin (05:49.105)
Yeah. Good. Because it happens to me all the time.

Steve-o (05:53.218)
I know, I just wanted to point that out for your benefit.

Derik Clark (05:56.912)
When I was younger, I saw Paul McCartney twice. It was really good show. Both times in Chicago, but once in Soldier Field. It was really good show.

Tony Benjamin (05:57.341)
That's

Tony Benjamin (06:01.607)
Wow.

Tony Benjamin (06:09.127)
value.

Steve-o (06:09.154)
Soldier field, that's cool. That is cool. Was that while you were in the military?

Derik Clark (06:10.952)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (06:12.145)
Yeah, he's one of

Derik Clark (06:14.406)
No, that was, I grew up in Chicago and that was before my days. A little bit north and was called Waukegan. Okay, yeah, yeah. So was right up by the Navy base and.

Steve-o (06:17.245)
okay. Cool.

Steve-o (06:22.754)
What about Chicago?

Steve-o (06:26.978)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I used to live in Arlington Heights, so yeah.

Yeah, that's cool. I love Chicago. I'm a huge Cubs fan, so when I was living there, in fact, I was there the year Harry Carrey died, which was such a huge ordeal because the entire city shut down for like two weeks. And I just remember there was this beautiful mural downtown when you went by the field. Somebody had painted this huge mural and it was just incredibly detailed. It was so cool. I wish I'd had a picture of it. Back then we didn't have the cell phones like we do today. In fact,

Derik Clark (06:41.888)
Steve-o (07:02.19)
The thing that was just coming out back then were beepers. And I guess some people don't call them beepers. They call them pagers. Like, what is that? I had never heard them being called pagers before. I always heard they were beepers. Wow. I just, don't know where I... We always call them beepers because they would beep at us all the time. Beep, beep, beep. So maybe I'm just making stuff up at this point. I don't know.

Derik Clark (07:05.723)
yeah.

Tony Benjamin (07:07.515)
Wow, Steve, you're old.

Derik Clark (07:11.794)
Yes.

I think the e-pagers were the word I used a lot.

Tony Benjamin (07:20.509)
Yeah, yeah.

Tony Benjamin (07:27.963)
Yeah, I...

Tony Benjamin (07:33.469)
Yeah, that's really funny.

Steve-o (07:35.212)
Wow. That's when Tony was like, okay, everybody laughs so we can shut Steve up.

Tony Benjamin (07:41.905)
No, no, I was just making fun of you. That's that's the that's kind of the norm for that. Everybody has a different name for stuff like that. Right. You know, I always grew up calling it pop. And then my wife convinced me it was soda. And then I found out. Yeah. And then I found out in Pittsburgh, it's all pop. They call it pop there, too.

Steve-o (07:51.032)
Yeah.

Derik Clark (07:56.734)
So, hope and...

Steve-o (08:03.32)
You know what they call it in the South?

Derik Clark (08:03.591)
So.

Tony Benjamin (08:06.812)
Mountain Dew.

Steve-o (08:07.98)
Nope, they call it coke. Everything is coke. So when I got to Alabama, right after I was, in fact, I moved from Chicago to Alabama and I became a waiter and I started waiting tables and people say I want a coke and I would bring a coke. They're like, no, no, no, I want a Sprite Coke. I'm like, you want a what? You want a Sprite Coke? Because Coke is just the word they use for soda or pop in general. So that was an adjustment right there, but there you go.

Derik Clark (08:08.926)
Talk to you.

Tony Benjamin (08:10.812)
Everything's cooked.

Derik Clark (08:26.493)
Hahaha

Tony Benjamin (08:33.265)
That's awesome. Yeah, yeah. Wait, you were a waiter too?

Steve-o (08:36.972)
South trivia. Yeah, in fact, I and I bartended a little bit too.

Tony Benjamin (08:43.611)
That had to be impressive. The guy who can't taste the drinks is mixing them.

Steve-o (08:44.374)
I would sell it, I know it was so funny because I'd sell the frozen margaritas to the tennis moms that would always come during the afternoon and they should not drink but they always came because they just liked me. so, yeah, yeah, so. And one day they gave me a really nice tip for tapping me on the bum.

Derik Clark (08:57.266)
Ha ha.

Tony Benjamin (08:57.285)
Alicia don't skip over that part. Wow.

Derik Clark (09:07.206)
They're like, tell me about your, you know, the size of your chimichangas and like.

Steve-o (09:13.592)
So crazy. They were fun though. They were fun. They were there literally every week at the same time. And frozen margaritas.

Tony Benjamin (09:15.015)
Wow.

Tony Benjamin (09:20.283)
This segment of the podcast brought to you by How to Harass Your Coworker.

Steve-o (09:25.015)
Right. Or how to harass the workers.

Derik Clark (09:25.054)
We're examples of what will get you into the HR office.

Steve-o (09:31.404)
It's right. It's right.

Tony Benjamin (09:32.401)
That's right. That's right. So Derek, tell us a little bit about you. So obviously you grew up in Chicago and we know you were in the military, army, we'll let that out of the bag, but tell us about you and how you got to where you are.

Derik Clark (09:50.012)
Yeah, so we got mixed. I'll start with the military.

when I joined the military, then I got assigned to basically the army kind of gives you two jobs. One is the job that they give you specific training for, and then you do that as they need it. But then sometimes they're like, we need you to do other stuff too. So, so, you you get a lot of opportunities to work in logistics and operations in, you know, like

just senior management for stuff or even HR. Whether you're officially trained for HR or not, then there's a lot of that that you do within the military. My initial job was in counterintelligence. And that essentially has two areas. One is investigating national security crimes, like espionage.

and like just understanding how the investigative process works to kind of get to the bottom of those cases. And then the second part is, it's called source handling, which is very similar to like a police informant network, but with foreign intelligence agencies. So there's a lot of relationship building, a lot of trust.

you know, just influence and persuasion type stuff that entails all of that bit of counterintelligence. And then when they didn't put me to work in counterintelligence, actually, like mostly towards the end of my military career, I was doing a lot of HR stuff. I taught at the, yeah, I know. But I mean, like it was, it wasn't so much the,

Tony Benjamin (11:43.901)
Poor guy.

Derik Clark (11:52.37)
you know, the compensation and benefits and pay kind of stuff because there were people specifically designed for that. But I did the leadership development. I actually taught the junior and senior leadership development courses for the military. yeah, yeah, like, because we do our leadership a little bit different. Like it's all hands on and it's like, we're going to go out, you're leading this.

Steve-o (12:09.614)
See, that'd be fun, I think. Yeah.

Derik Clark (12:17.81)
you're leading this patrol and these are the challenges that you're gonna come up with, but we work on how to communicate properly with your team and how to have those difficult conversations and things like that. it's like a real world hands-on exercises that we do for leadership development, which actually gets me pretty fun.

Steve-o (12:43.628)
That bleeds into HR so much right there. I mean, I know it's militaristic, right? But just some of those concepts and words that you use are very much HR related.

Derik Clark (12:46.257)
Action.

Derik Clark (12:53.502)
Right, mean, we're not always kicking down doors. It's like you have people that are not pulling their weight and how do we address that? How do we make sure that we are concise in the way that we talk and still get everything out there that we have to get out so we can be respectful of other people's time? at what point do you turn up the heat on the intensity?

of what you guys do and when do you say, listen, I think you're getting a little bit overwhelmed. Let's take it back to stuff. So like all of those things that happen within the military are things that happen everywhere within your personal relationships, within a corporate environment, especially within like an HR role.

Tony Benjamin (13:45.374)
No, the military has some very, very unique leadership needs, right? Because it's not just like in the corporate world, you have to persuade people, you have to bring them along, you have to educate them, develop them and all that sort of stuff. And the military has all that as well. But in addition to that, they have to do that while bullets are flying around.

Derik Clark (14:11.922)
Yeah, sometimes.

Tony Benjamin (14:13.347)
And they have to make sure that instant obedience most of the time is what happens. And it's still not crush the person that you're trying to develop or move along. And to me, it's a crazy balance. think the military does an incredible job of it. Go ahead, you were going to say something, Derek.

Derik Clark (14:34.972)
No, well, I think like you're absolutely right. And I think that the main point, the main reason why that happens is the culture that gets ingrained before the bullets start flying. So I mean, because there's there's moments when you like everyone is expected to be a leader, whether you're in a leadership position or not. So like you are in charge of something. And if it's not people, then it's a project or it's equipment. Like everyone has a role.

and all those roles are interconnected. And there's moments when people are given the ability to, because they're in that leadership development or because they're being groomed for potential leadership, they all need to know what's happening and they all need to know how to do everyone else's jobs. Because in this organization, someone like the leader could not be available all of a sudden. And then everyone has to...

Tony Benjamin (15:32.669)
without permit without notice right yeah yeah

Steve-o (15:33.23)
Imagine that.

Derik Clark (15:35.306)
Yeah. But not even when bulls are flying, sometimes just like they'll get called to go replace someone else. And then so everyone has to shift. But everyone knows the role. Everyone knows that, you know, like what happens. How's the hierarchy? Everyone understands when someone is not here, then this person is in charge. And so they can jump into those.

Steve-o (15:45.336)
Yeah.

Derik Clark (16:03.506)
those roles and positions. Like the expectation is that they are leaders. And when things are not intense, then the expectation is they contribute to the overall plan where they have scope.

Steve-o (16:19.628)
And I think what's fascinating about what you just said is they know the plan. They know the scope. They know the why behind it all. And I feel like there's something we could really learn in business leadership in that regard, because how often do our employees not really understand the full scope of what's going on or, you know, things have been held from them and we're not being fully transparent. And I'm not saying you need to reveal and tell them everything. And I'm sure in the military, you don't reveal and tell them everything either.

but they know enough so that when somebody needs to step it up, it just gets done. And I think that's critical. And they know their roles really well. And if my role is just this little tiny thing, I still understand how important that tiny little thing is to the whole.

Derik Clark (17:03.902)
Right. But yeah, so that's thing is they understand the vision, the whole, and their part within it. And if they're on a team, then they understand how their team operates within that vision as well. So that if there's any changes, it's like the military is a very, very matrixed organization because the individual leader has the ability to deviate from the plan depending on

Steve-o (17:07.584)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Derik Clark (17:33.591)
what they see on the ground, as long as it still fits in with the overall vision.

Steve-o (17:39.724)
Correct, yeah the parameter.

Tony Benjamin (17:40.958)
Matter of fact, this is one of the cool things about the U.S. military. And I don't I don't think in Derek, you've got more expertise in this than I do. So you correct me if I say something wrong. But this is one of the things that makes us to just to brag to be much better than a lot of militaries around the world. And this is a Western thing is the sergeant. Right. And that that corporal or the lieutenant who's leading that and he relies on a sergeant to make things happen. But if the lieutenant goes down.

he's not available, that sergeant, because he knows everything you're talking about, he can still lead it. Whereas like the Russian military, they execute orders, and they don't have that segment in there that's authorized to improvise as needed within the scope of the event. Yes.

Steve-o (18:23.566)
It's almost a flexibility. Yeah, but it's...

Derik Clark (18:25.522)
Yeah, there was actually one of the, there was a Russian defector one time that they were interviewing and he brought this up. was like, he's like, the thing is that we really don't know what you guys are doing because you guys don't know what you're doing. like, but he didn't mean it as like insulting. He meant like, you change your plans all the time. Like we at Russia, we follow everything to the letter and nobody deviates.

Steve-o (18:39.75)
Ha

Derik Clark (18:52.188)
because someone that's a genius figured all this out. that genius doesn't see what the situation requires. And so we have that. And you mentioned lieutenant, he's in charge. But if he's a smart lieutenant, he realizes that he doesn't have the same amount of experience as the sergeant first class that he's usually working with.

So if he knows what he's talking about, then he says, hey, hey, Sergeant, what do you think about this? Give me a reality check on my plan.

Tony Benjamin (19:27.281)
Yeah, yeah.

Steve-o (19:28.14)
You know where this historically goes back to? was watching a documentary and this goes back to George Washington and how he developed his, military career and military that he had at the time against the British because the British were very succinct and this is how you do it. And there's this formal way of doing things. then George Washington is one of the first that said, no, we're not going to do it that way. And we're to have spies and we're going to do all these things that were just so just unorthodox, if you will.

And it's amazing and fascinating to me that that's really where it stems from, like when you look at the history, and that has been our military since.

Derik Clark (20:04.67)
You gotta work with what you got. That's an excellent example of how we apply it to a...

like a regular business organization that you can fire everybody, but then you have problems with employer branding. So the military there and having people in your organization that are veterans will give you this element of, will work with what I have. like, I'll take them, I'll mold them.

Steve-o (20:17.688)
Correct. Yeah, and that's my point. Yeah.

Derik Clark (20:42.334)
I'm not going to ask for the dream team, but if I don't get it, then I got something here and this is what I'm going build with what I got.

Steve-o (20:42.414)
That's so cool.

Tony Benjamin (20:56.081)
This is, that's, that's awesome. And I, yeah, yeah.

Steve-o (20:57.326)
And they're OK with it. That's the beauty of it. It's like, OK, I'm just going to go with what we got. Here we go. So. Right?

Derik Clark (20:58.556)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (21:03.311)
I wish more managers were like that. I'll take what I got. Matter of fact, it's usually what they hired.

Derik Clark (21:09.063)
Hahaha.

Steve-o (21:09.85)
But think of the level of intelligence that requires though. If your team does not have an overall picture of everything and if you yourself don't have that overall picture, it is extremely difficult to just simply work with what you've got because sometimes you don't know what you've got. And I see that in the business world where not everybody is on the same page, which is why you don't even know what you're working with. And so to me, there's value here in actually learning these concepts in normal American business in my mind.

Derik Clark (21:38.91)
And I think one of the biggest disconnects there is that, and something I realized after I got out of the military was most organizations, they see these individual contributors that are just top performers. There's amazing, these guys are great. We don't wanna lose them, so let's just promote them.

Tony Benjamin (21:39.005)
Yeah, no.

Derik Clark (22:06.686)
But then we like, like, so, and they're happy to do it because they're like, yeah, like I want, I want to get involved, but they don't realize that not everyone works like they do. Not everyone is, and they don't get any leadership development training. Like a lot of our, our, the succession plan is like, we like this guy and that's it. That's where it stops. It's not like we like this, you know, we like this woman here and we think she's going to be great at, as a director, but we don't, we don't stop and say, all right,

Steve-o (22:15.736)
Mm-hmm.

Tony Benjamin (22:18.609)
Mm-hmm.

Tony Benjamin (22:22.587)
Yes.

Derik Clark (22:35.806)
Here's how we develop you into.

Steve-o (22:38.306)
Yeah, and mold you into something greater,

Derik Clark (22:40.51)
Like, it's usually just, they're pretty smart, so they'll figure it out. And then, so then there's that, there's some lag time, there's some stress that's not necessary. They don't know how to have those hard conversations. And I think that...

Steve-o (22:57.742)
Yeah, I think companies do a great disservice to their own leaders within their own organization when they truly don't provide the training and development in that sense because I don't even care how good you are. You still need training. You still need development in those areas. It's always going to be a necessity because we're just ever learning,

Derik Clark (23:20.444)
And you said necessity, the thing is that like the big thing is we just don't have time. there's always 15 minutes. Like that development isn't we're going to take you now that we've promoted you and give you the two weeks training that you need. It's 15 minutes here. It's 15 minutes there. While we're trying to empower everyone to be a leader.

Steve-o (23:26.509)
Mm-hmm.

Derik Clark (23:49.246)
even before you get to that role.

Tony Benjamin (23:49.628)
That's no, that's that's really good. Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna get to our read here. Running a business is hard. HR shouldn't be. Megastar HR is here to save you from bad HR. With expert support and everything from hiring to handbooks, compliance to culture, need payroll help or recruiting power. We do that too. Fractionally and flexibly no overhead just results.

Steve-o (23:51.158)
I love that,

Tony Benjamin (24:16.187)
Visit MegastarHR.com and let's grow your business together. Shout out to Becca. Sorry Steve's mocking me there as I give that. He's mouthing it at the same rate I give it. So Derek I want to talk about this. So let me me clarify a couple of things here. You've told us a little bit of this. You're in the military. You grew up in Chicago. You joined the military. So what was your primary job? I think you mentioned it slightly there but let's talk about that really quick.

Steve-o (24:26.414)
I always mock you.

Steve-o (24:44.78)
Yeah, especially how this leads into some of your presentations.

Tony Benjamin (24:44.807)
your primary job in the military? Right, right.

Derik Clark (24:45.17)
Yes, so I've worked for...

Yeah. So I was in counterintelligence. I think, and I explained a little bit what that meant, but the most fascinating part for me was learning about people's nonverbals and how, know, like what that means, what it means when I see certain, you know, people doing certain things or where they say things a certain way or

how can I use that to influence? Which was like a big factor in either both the investigative piece and the actual collection with other human informants.

Steve-o (25:35.214)
So Derek, I went to a presentation several years ago and the title of the presentation is, come learn how to tell when they're lying. And we all know that that's not true. You can never tell when somebody is absolutely lying. And so I wanna hear your take on this because this is what really drew me to you because for the first time, because I've seen multiple presentations on this, like, you can always tell when somebody.

Derik Clark (25:43.582)
Yeah.

Steve-o (26:02.346)
And you basically got up and said, no, you can't. and then you went, so talk about that a little bit. Because this is what I loved about your presentation when I first met you.

Derik Clark (26:09.01)
Yeah, so.

Yeah, there's no surefire, gotcha element that says that someone is lying. But what you can see is people are either going to be comfortable or uncomfortable. So I'm going use the word binary in a different context that usually gets used like today. But yeah, so people are to varying degrees comfortable or uncomfortable. It's one or the other.

Tony Benjamin (26:30.109)
Good. Thank you. This is a family podcast.

Steve-o (26:33.901)
Right.

Derik Clark (26:41.722)
And this happens because your limbic system is telling you that you either need to protect yourself from something or you can trust that whatever is happening around you is not going to hurt you. So then our body reacts to that in a certain way. I usually... So what you're seeing is stress to something. It can be stressed because they're being deceptive.

But that stress can come because it's cold in the room. That stress can come because you're asking them a question that lately you're asking them a applicant interview question. They're a candidate and maybe they don't know how to explain how they've used AI in their work in the past. So that's going to make them a little bit more stressed and their body is going to

physiologically.

demonstrate that they're uncomfortable. If they try and hide one thing, then by overcompensating, that stress in their body has to go somewhere. And so you'll see it somewhere else.

Tony Benjamin (27:56.338)
So, and what you're saying is that there's notable differences in their behavior based upon if they're comfortable or what I've been told is like baseline them, right? They're comfortable. And then, and then they have different physiological and physical movements or actions if they're not comfortable.

Derik Clark (28:04.562)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Derik Clark (28:13.82)
Right. Right. then, so if you see, doesn't mean they're

Steve-o (28:16.776)
doesn't mean they're lying, it just means they're uncomfortable. There's stress. It's an acute stress response.

Tony Benjamin (28:19.901)
means they're not comfortable.

Derik Clark (28:23.494)
Right, and usually people will, you can subconsciously tell. Like you know that someone is uncomfortable most of the time. And so that, what normally happens though with people is that they'll see that someone else is uncomfortable and then their limbic system reacts to that, making them slightly uncomfortable. It's like, they're, you know, they don't like what I'm saying. They disagree with what I'm saying and now I want to,

protect myself from that discomfort. And so now you have two people that are demonstrating like some discomfort behaviors because of their language system.

Tony Benjamin (29:02.685)
This is what I call is something hanging out of my nose. right? You go like, you're worried that something's hanging out of your nose, so you start doing it, you start rubbing your nose, and then the person across from you thinks you're hinting to them, and so they start doing it. Yeah, right.

Derik Clark (29:07.068)
Yeah, actually.

Derik Clark (29:13.566)
And then the other person was like, my gosh. Do I have? Yeah.

Steve-o (29:19.106)
mean, in baseball, that's just the sign to go steal the base. mean, I'm just saying. On any given day, anyway. No, I love this though. Yeah.

Derik Clark (29:21.342)
Still the base.

Tony Benjamin (29:22.461)
you

Derik Clark (29:28.612)
So what I think. Yeah, and then then the thing is that when you see that when you see those and I call them heat indicators, it's like a framework that I use because you can usually categorize it. I tell people that you don't have to know what every single signal means. You just have to be able to like if you can categorize it into a very general terms, then.

all of sudden you're consciously instead of subconsciously identifying that someone is a little uncomfortable. so I use a framework I call HEED basically. People will either, when they're uncomfortable, they will either hide somehow, like they'll make their voice quieter or they'll shrink their body or things like that. Or they will escape.

They try and lean away from whatever was just said or they look off or maybe their torso is facing you but they turn their feet towards the door because that's where they want to go eventually.

Steve-o (30:26.316)
look off. Yeah, yeah.

Steve-o (30:37.144)
That's like when I talk to Tony after about 10 minutes he starts turning and I have to like, yeah.

Tony Benjamin (30:40.231)
Yeah.

Derik Clark (30:41.244)
Yeah, yeah, you're not very exciting anymore and we should do a conversation.

Tony Benjamin (30:44.285)
It's usually not Steve, it's the gaggle of people around him that want to talk to him that I'm usually trying to get away from.

Derik Clark (30:53.022)
Then the other one is escape. No, I said escape. The other one is ease. So they ease tension somehow. They'll rub their hands or their neck or touch their face. They're trying to relieve stress and then defend for the final part of So if you're taking heed, will see how they'll maybe put barriers up or sometimes people will say that if you cross your arms, then you're closed off and maybe.

Tony Benjamin (31:01.057)
interesting.

Steve-o (31:02.03)
Yeah, because they're trying to relieve the stress, if you will. Yep. Yep.

Derik Clark (31:21.286)
If you cross your arms, it can be a self-hug, maybe you're cold, maybe, you know, like, but it is a way to be defensive and protective. So when you see those indicators, then a lot of times people will automatically think, this person is lying. You know, like they just do a subconscious. My suggestion is that instead of thinking that, just say, this person is uncomfortable. And now,

Steve-o (31:31.363)
Mm-hmm.

Tony Benjamin (31:42.822)
Right, right.

Derik Clark (31:50.748)
let's find out why. And it could be maybe they didn't explain something very well. You asked them an interview question about the last time that they were let go at their previous work. And they run through it really fast. They just say, well, there was a restructure.

they really want to get through it as fast as possible, then they're escaping that question. And you may or may not want to ask like a follow-up and say, you know, hey, well, tell me a little bit more about that. And so, and it may be nothing, you know, sometimes a nose scratch is just a nose scratch. Like your nose actually, it's...

Steve-o (32:20.076)
No context, no additional detail, just very vague. Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (32:43.985)
That's good because as you were saying that I was fiddling with my face and I was nervous after I did it. there. But yeah.

Derik Clark (32:46.908)
Hahaha

Yes, but when you do see those things, that's a red flag. And if you see several of them, that's called a cluster. So you see someone fidgeting in their chair and clearing their throat and then shrinking their body all after one question, then you have a higher indicator that they're really, really uncomfortable with the question that I just asked.

Steve-o (32:51.822)
Tony makes himself nervous when he notices.

Steve-o (33:06.35)
turning and...

Steve-o (33:19.66)
I just like how you describe it this way because I have seen way too much that a manager just automatically assumes, they were lying in the interview. And they go right to the lying idea as if somehow they have this magical way to tell that somebody is lying when it's just simply not true. And I think that's what I appreciate about what you've been saying.

Derik Clark (33:41.822)
trained professionals, like law enforcement and people that really study body language, if they're just asked to identify deception, then they're usually just a little over 50 % accurate. And that's like trained professionals. But if you ask them, are they uncomfortable about something, then that number jumps up.

exponentially. People can accurately tell that someone is not comfortable. They can't accurately tell that someone is being deceptive.

Steve-o (34:15.202)
So when you realize they're uncomfortable, yeah, so when you realize they're uncomfortable, that's the trigger that, okay, this is probably a moment where we need to either go deeper, let it alone, or have them talk about it more to a point of not being uncomfortable anymore. I know you talk a little bit about this in your presentation as well.

Tony Benjamin (34:15.227)
Okay, so go ahead, Steve.

Derik Clark (34:36.302)
Yeah, those three things, but also what am I doing? Like what am I doing that's making them uncomfortable? What's the trigger? Was it what I just said or was it, you the fact that I'm leaning over, you know, over the desk and I got like this, fingers pointed like knife hand style or like, is my tone getting too high? Am I being aggressive? Have they, you know, have they suffered some recent family losses or something like that?

You have to think about the context in full and what am I doing? Like to, yeah.

Steve-o (35:09.89)
I love that self-reflection.

Tony Benjamin (35:12.061)
So, so let me ask you something. And we can put this in a military thing that, you know, you're ferreting out some sort of leak of information or in an HR setting where you're doing some sort of investigation and you're looking at stuff. And, and, and Grant, I, I, I did take a class on, some stuff similar to this long time ago when it was the Crossroads Conference, which is one of my favorite classes I've ever taken. Most useful. Do you?

or maybe it depends, which is the right answer, supposedly, if you're in HR. But if you're, if you go into a situation like that, are you making them comfortable first to see the baseline? Are you trying to get them to base calm, or are you ratcheting it up immediately and then releasing the tension to see the difference?

Derik Clark (35:59.05)
Ideally, yes, you want to see their... And in an HR setting, outside of like a candidate interview, then usually you have that time to just talk about, tell me about what's going on in your life. Let's... Yeah. And you do that just to get them to talk about the things that they're really interested in or they like doing. When I go networking,

Tony Benjamin (36:17.821)
So get baseline calm first.

Derik Clark (36:28.252)
I almost never say, what do you do? Because then they they kind of monotonously go through what it is that their job description is. And so I say, what's exciting for you? And then they really, they shift in their seat, they posture up and they get a little bit bigger. And then they, I can see their tone and I can see their pitch, or I can hear their pitch.

I can see how they hold themselves when they're talking about something that they really enjoy. And then, later on when I say something like in an HR perspective, so I brought you in here today because there's been some reporting that you've been telling off-color jokes in the break room.

Like, can you tell me about that? But then I'm immediately, as soon as I say that, I wanna see if their posture changes from what it was when they were really excited. And that doesn't, again, doesn't mean that they're gonna be deceptive. It means that whatever I just said made them uncomfortable. And so now, I wanna dive in a little bit more, but I can see that discomfort. And now if I see,

Steve-o (37:35.009)
Yeah.

Derik Clark (37:47.71)
If I'm talking about other things and they go back to their baseline to answer the question, then I know that they feel a little bit more confident about that question. But then when I go back to harping on, me about that off-color joke, and they're always uncomfortable, then chances are they really did make that off-color joke and they knew that it was wrong. Or they knew it was at least kind of sketchy.

and they realize that they're in a situation that's difficult for them.

Tony Benjamin (38:22.075)
So what assumption do you make then if they go straight to defense? So like, what's wrong with that kind of a joke? I mean, they just go straight to that. I'm just curious what your reaction to that is.

Steve-o (38:28.802)
Yeah, sometimes that happens in investigations,

Derik Clark (38:35.942)
Usually when so when I've done investigations before a lot of it was wasn't You realize that if people are thinking about consequences, then you'll see a lot more of that defense and so So a lot of times I would always say listen listen Like I'm not saying that you did anything. I'm like like this is just this is just what I have here and I I'm gathering up some information I'm giving you this opportunity to tell me what happened in your like your words your story

Tony Benjamin (38:47.899)
Okay

Derik Clark (39:06.076)
Like, and I always make sure that I try and tell them, like, I'm not judging you. Like, don't, I'm not gonna tell you what's going on right or wrong. I just wanna know, like, what happened so that I get a big picture. And this is your chance to tell me your side of the story. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like, I'll tell them, listen, right now you're not in trouble.

Steve-o (39:24.556)
take some immediately out of defensive mode so that you can be more authentic in what they tell you.

Derik Clark (39:32.508)
They might be as soon as they disclose more information, like right now, right now you are not in trouble. So like I want them not thinking about consequences.

Tony Benjamin (39:35.293)
Shocking.

Tony Benjamin (39:42.78)
No, that's really, that's important. And matter of fact, one of the things that I try very hard to do when I do written, you know, because that is the consequence, is try to always keep it at baseline. And it's very easy to let the get it. When you give somebody a written warning, you're threatening their livelihood. That's a shot across the bow of their livelihood. Their ability to pay their bills. Maybe they just bought a new truck or,

like me, they just bought a new couch, right? It's a really nice couch. That's right, but you just buy a new couch and it was not red. No, no, no.

Steve-o (40:16.046)
That's right. And it wasn't red guys. I know. I know everybody's like disappointed, but yeah.

Derik Clark (40:16.902)
Hahaha

Tony Benjamin (40:24.573)
But anyways, it you you you

Where am I trying to go with this? I guess what I'm trying to say is I try to set them up so that they know that the consequences, these are the consequences, but the consequences is not life threatening. Like I try very hard to get in there and say, look, we do this because we want to document what we're telling you, not because it's it. Everyone's like, it's in writing. It's more serious. sure. Yes. But

The reason we write it down isn't because what you did is super bad. What we write down is so that no one forgets what we said.

Derik Clark (41:03.868)
And it protects you. I always make sure to tell them, I want to protect you, I want to help. We have these issues that we have to talk about, but this is not the end all be all. This is me saying we have some things that we need to address. if you're willing to work with me, then let's do it. And I'm writing this down, I'm recording this right now, so that later on, nobody can come back and say, we said something, and you disagree.

Like I want you to feel like your story that I'm asking you about right now is accurate and it is your story and it's the way that you want it told so that you're protected.

Tony Benjamin (41:54.012)
Right? No, that's an excellent point. know, so I do a little work with a law firm. Everyone's heard the podcast. They already know this, but maybe Derek doesn't. I do a work with some plaintiff work with a law firm over at Pearson Butler. And I always tell my clients when they call me and they're in the middle of something like, hey, I think this is going bad. How do I handle this? And my answer to them is the more that's written down, the better off you are if you're in the right.

Now if you're in the wrong and you really are stealing whatever or you're doing something wrong, well then maybe documenting it all doesn't help you. But if you're in the right, the documentation always helps you, right? It always helps you. So you get down with a meeting, you have some sort of conversation about what's gone wrong and you send it, what you should do is send an email back to your boss, say, okay, we talked about the following things today. This is what you said.

this, this and this. have concerns about this, but I'm going to try and do why. And to me, that's just how you protect yourself. To your point, it is not always just HR. There's this theory out there that we in HR have secret stenographers somehow that follow people around and document everything. And the reality is no, no, we just write down

Derik Clark (43:11.326)
you

Tony Benjamin (43:16.653)
afterwards what we thought happened and usually in a pretty short concise form. And if you're doing the same thing, and then you're verifying it with me later, we can't say no, that person's lying about what's there because you've got an email from say, from me saying, Yep, that looks right.

Derik Clark (43:32.774)
Right. And then, of course, if they are in the wrong and they are stealing from the company, then you can always kind of remove the defensiveness by exacerbating the worst case scenario. you'd be like, it's not like you've sold all of the company data to in the black market. That's crazy. All you did was

Tony Benjamin (43:34.225)
So anyway.

Tony Benjamin (43:58.215)
bright.

Derik Clark (44:02.75)
you were in a bad situation and you're just trying to find a way out. You kind of mitigate that. Now later, after the calm down, we can talk about each one of those points. yeah, you are stealing thousands of dollars from the company. And I can understand why you did that based on what's going on in your life right now. the fact is that you did it. You can address that later. But if they're so defensive and they're...

in denial the whole time because they're thinking about those consequences then. you're like, it's not like you sold all the data. It's not like you gave away trade secrets. It's not like you sold, we talk about Coke. It's not like you sold the Coke formula. Like this is just, all you did was this. You gotta get them to calm down. gotta get them to like not be...

Tony Benjamin (44:42.019)
Right, right, right. Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (44:49.991)
formula. Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (44:56.411)
Now that's...

Derik Clark (45:01.374)
Demonstrating those heat indicators. They need to be able to open the be able to open up and then kind of kind of talk to you so that you can get to the bottom of everything

Steve-o (45:09.998)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (45:11.665)
So, Derek, let me ask you this. your diving into this with people and that what I have found, you tell me first of all, if you've had the same experience and if so, maybe you can elaborate on why. But for me, it seems like when I do investigations and I get through it and I've got two people, right, maybe someone pushed somebody or somebody yelled or whatever, there was a fight, I don't know. But you get into it and what I have found is I get about what I find is that

Steve-o (45:35.118)
Thank

Tony Benjamin (45:38.94)
I start talking to people and 80 % of what they say actually agrees. And then the other 20 % is only nuanced difference. And I really don't usually need to know the nuanced difference, right? Like I don't really care who said the F word first. Like, I mean, okay, because the bit, yeah, because if you said the F word to, if he said the F word to you, that doesn't clear you in punching the guy.

Derik Clark (45:43.23)
Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (45:57.186)
Probably irrelevant, right?

Tony Benjamin (46:06.779)
Right? But do you experience that? And maybe you can talk to me about why people do that, why they're so hung up on the tiny details that maybe are insignificant.

Derik Clark (46:18.098)
I think that, the tiny details are the justification, I think. You know, it's like the, wouldn't normally do this, but in this case, you know, this thing happened and I can't, know, like, I have to step in at some point and draw the line. And this was the line. I actually like to kind of go backwards, to have them tell the story backwards a little bit.

Tony Benjamin (46:21.968)
Okay.

Derik Clark (46:45.852)
Because what that does is, like you're like, so what happened right before that? You know, so, you know, he was using the F word with us. Okay, all right, great. What happened right before that? You know, what happened right before that? What happened right before that? And go back a little ways to where it's, you know, where it's more innocuous. Like there's not much of a, like nobody's angry yet, nobody's upset yet. somewhere in there, that's when you can see where a trigger was pulled.

Steve-o (47:15.374)
where it escalated and yeah.

Derik Clark (47:16.958)
You can see where it actually escalated, but then you can see the buildup to right before it escalated. And then for me, and you're absolutely right, it's not so important on like who did the thing that put everyone over the top. It's recognizing when you're about to get there. So if we take them backwards, then hopefully the people involved are seeing

Tony Benjamin (47:36.581)
Right, yep.

Derik Clark (47:47.09)
the pattern. Every time this person yells at us, these things happen right before. So now we can talk to the person like, before you get to this point, realize that this is an early warning sign for you. And if you are on the receiving end, then realize this is an early warning signal. So this is where it is time for you to step back so that you don't get to that point. Because everyone has a little bit of

of copability in whatever escalation story. But I think going backwards to way before that, the escalating event, you can see how it builds to get there. And if you have to, say, okay, in the other times that he, if he always uses the F word with you, then.

Steve-o (48:20.502)
Yeah, whatever happened.

Tony Benjamin (48:22.597)
Right, right.

Derik Clark (48:45.02)
The other, tell me about the last time that it happened and the time before that. So we can kind of collectively see what the patterns are before.

Tony Benjamin (48:54.255)
I love that idea of going backwards. It's like watching the movie Memento. That's right.

Derik Clark (48:58.406)
Yes. And the tricky part is that generally people work out their story linear, like linearly, but to tell it backwards and to have it make... Yeah, it's much harder to make up the story because it has to, like, because when you tell it forward, it doesn't make as much sense.

Steve-o (49:09.72)
You can't really lie when you do it that way.

Makeup stuff, yep.

Tony Benjamin (49:22.653)
Right, right. That's well boys and girls, you just heard a key technique right there. And of course you're going to have to as you do that, you're going to have to jot down your notes. They're going to be in reverse order because you're getting what happened before that.

Derik Clark (49:28.914)
Yeah

Derik Clark (49:35.358)
Right. Now you don't initially start like you'll get their story and then you'll say, right, well, tell me what happened right before that. Tell me what happened right before that. Starting with the last thing. then, you have your notes there and you're like, no, wait, wait, was this book, when he threw the books off the table, was this before or after you saying that you weren't going to come into work the next day?

Because when you're telling it backwards, it might be in a different order. And so then you clarify that, but then, yeah.

Tony Benjamin (50:09.297)
Right, right, right.

Steve-o (50:12.024)
Yeah, you start catching stuff if needed, right?

Tony Benjamin (50:16.977)
Yeah, yeah, because it's and OK, so you'll you'll appreciate this, Derek, in that class I took on on how to, you know, go through this process with people. He gave this whole thing. And then there's the practiced lie. Right. And the practiced lie. And you can correct me any time, but the practice lie is when I have told myself the lie over and over and over enough to where I believe it. And so now I'm comfortable with the lie. And.

And he got through the end of this whole class and then he showed us of a video of a guy who claimed to be the second shooter at JFK, the guy on the the knoll. Yeah. And what he's trying to show you is that here's somebody he's taught you this whole time about how to know when people are, you know, uncomfortable and they're whatever. And then he takes you to this guy who's completely calm and telling you about how he shot JFK in the head. And it was really him, not whatever.

Derik Clark (50:55.54)
Agressional

Tony Benjamin (51:14.001)
It was the cool, it gave me the creeps. Like it just made your blood turn cold.

Derik Clark (51:19.058)
Yeah. Well, that's and you're not going to see the those heat indicators at that point. I actually had a guy that was that that was like this one time in Iraq. He he came to a team that I was that I was supporting, that I was I was managing. But so I met with him one time, but he kept telling us he gave us so much information about how people were smuggling weapons from Syria into Iraq. He talked about routes and he talked about weapons and he talked about people.

like, like, like he knew stuff and his story was like, listen, I live in this neighborhood and I want it to be safe. And I don't, I don't believe it's safe. And he, but he also wanted to get paid for this information. He's like, listen, I'm, I'm, I'm giving you good stuff. And I know you've, you've followed up and you found out that it's, that it's real. I just want this to be a better place, but I haven't worked in like six months. I haven't had, he said, I haven't had a job in six months.

And but his stories were so good and his body language was so good. so like, like, like he's got really good information. And that was like the case, a good case for him to, us to pay for us to pay him. Cause we do pay for legitimate information, but he was really rushing the issue. Something felt off. Like, just, like everything looked right. But it felt off. so, but occasionally you have to like look at things in a bigger picture.

Tony Benjamin (52:36.964)
Right,

Derik Clark (52:49.308)
Like you have to look at everything in full context. So in this particular case, I was like, I'm not gonna listen to the story for a second, because everything sounds good. And so I closed my eyes and I thought, when I open up my eyes, I'm just gonna observe, I'm just gonna look. What do I see? Now what do I hear? What do I see? And when I opened up my eyes, then the first thing I saw was like a string.

hanging off the, you know, like the seam of the pants on the side, there was like a little string hanging off, but it was one of those strings that, know, where you just pull because they're the loose string, like a brand new pair of pants. And I was like, that's really interesting. And then I saw shoes that had like no tread wear, zeroed, like they were brand new shoes. Yeah. And then I was like, all right. I'm still not, I'm not like.

Tony Benjamin (53:27.652)
bright.

Steve-o (53:37.868)
Like brand new, yeah.

Derik Clark (53:44.676)
analyzing anything I'm just I'm observing. That's it. And then he's got like this blingy watch and and like fresh haircut that was like maybe two days, two days old. And like he looked like like he was he could have been a member of NSYNC because his beard was like all chiseled super thin. I was like, you know, he just got that professionally done. And then I was like, wait. All right now I'm seeing all of this stuff. He's got all this new stuff.

But he's telling me that he hasn't had a job in six months and so that's why he needs money. So, I started asking, we started asking him about like, why? Where are you getting money? If you haven't worked for six months, where are you getting money? He was really reluctant. That was when he became, that was when I saw like a lot of heat indicators. And that was when he was really uncomfortable with the story. Him seeing people across the border,

tight. He'd practiced that. He knew exactly what to say. But where are you getting money? He was not so comfortable.

Tony Benjamin (54:52.988)
It's because you hit a part of a story that was not practiced,

Derik Clark (54:55.838)
was not practiced. And it was something that he was trying to avoid because it turns out after talking with him for a while, after doing some of the things we talked about, like talking backwards and removing any consequence, then he was able to say, listen, I am also smuggling weapons. Like, I gotta make money.

and there's no other way for me to do it. I smuggle weapons as well. He wasn't lying when he said that he didn't have a job. He was an entrepreneur. He had a business, right? He was 1099.

Steve-o (55:26.114)
Wow.

Tony Benjamin (55:36.892)
He wasn't W2.

That's a great example.

Derik Clark (55:43.901)
So yeah, that, but yeah, so like sometimes when you're looking at a bigger picture, then you can approach something from a different angle. And that was when I started seeing the heat indicators.

Tony Benjamin (56:00.264)
Wow, I like that. That's saying something. That's saying something about those interrogation or interview techniques. I really like that. You've certainly added a lot of depth to the previous training I've got. Derek, before we switch too much, and hopefully everyone got a lot out of that, I certainly picked up some really cool techniques. I want to ask you, because Steve and I asked this of everybody,

Steve-o (56:02.851)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (56:29.851)
What do you think the state of HR is right now?

Derik Clark (56:34.056)
I think, well, so I think you'll have to consider the AI integration. probably the biggest thing is where everyone wants to automate stuff. You really have to understand that there are some elements of HR. This is human resources. So there are some elements that can't be automated. And that is when you are sitting in front of someone,

and you can be recording, can have your chat GP tell you, hey, you should probably answer the question this way. If you're reading the screen, there's no personal connection. So use your AI to automate some processes and help you analyze engagement survey results. That's all great, but don't lose the person-to-person skillset.

which I think is happening more and more as people rely completely on AI. they'll get their prompt, they'll get an output, and then the output becomes whatever it is that they turn in without reviewing it, without putting the actual human emotion element into HR. It is not, yeah, like, and you'll see a lack of authenticity.

Tony Benjamin (57:48.871)
So it's not authentic, right?

Steve-o (57:50.786)
Yeah.

Derik Clark (57:56.69)
You know, as people are using, you're doing interviews and people are using AI to like, you know, answer the questions for them and then they just start reading it. You might see them like their eyes moving back and forth or they're looking at another screen, which may be indicators that they're not being authentic. Or as you sit in your, you know, your leadership meeting with someone and you tell that they're

They're disagreeing with the stuff that you're saying or whatever, but you're not gonna be able to recognize that if you're only relying on AI. You still have, like we have to, because people use their phone so much and the AI, those person to person skills really need to get put back on the wet stone.

Tony Benjamin (58:49.593)
Oh, okay. okay, that was what I was going to follow up with you on that. So you think that's happening? You think we're becoming in HR less and less authentic?

Derik Clark (58:55.306)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. think and it's people are are and where people are being less authentic, not just the HR professional, but but the people that they work with and they support. We're losing the ability to recognize that authenticity or lack of authenticity because we're looking so much at the phone. We're looking for like the black and white.

Steve-o (59:22.636)
Yeah, you don't catch everything. Yeah. And when you don't catch it all. Yeah.

Derik Clark (59:24.122)
You don't catch it.

Derik Clark (59:28.636)
And it's a perishable skill. The synapses in your brain are going to shut down and your plasticity is going to go into what prompt is going to work the best instead of, do I need to say to this person right now that will be most influential for them?

Tony Benjamin (59:47.421)
See, there you go. And yeah.

Steve-o (59:47.862)
I really like this because like when I'm doing interviews or even just talking with people, I always tell people I like to go deeper, right? I like to go a little bit deeper. My daughter was having an issue with with somebody that she is currently living with who keeps saying things or doing things that that just seem off. Like they were so strange to her. It's like, wait a minute, what? And it turns out there was no authenticity there whatsoever. They were either making up stuff

or they really weren't listening. And when they weren't listening, some of the things they said, the reason it didn't make sense is because they didn't hear the whole story or they didn't hear the whole of the situation in the moment. And so there was complete lack of authenticity. That's why I think in interviews, and especially interviews when you're interviewing applicants, repeat back some of the things that they say to show that you're actually listening to them. And not only is that helpful to show them they're listening,

But it helps you focus on actually listening as well because I'm trying to truly understand what you just told me as opposed to just making these assumptions.

Derik Clark (01:00:53.244)
Right, yeah, and then they can correct you if they need to, they realize that what they said isn't making sense, and so they can read it.

Steve-o (01:00:56.139)
Exactly. Yeah.

Steve-o (01:01:04.098)
that can reformulate it, resay it, like yeah, retry. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Derik Clark (01:01:08.54)
Yeah, because in a lot of situations that may be the right answer, but then like in a broader sense, maybe it doesn't always work. And they realize that they want to caveat things. But just that repeating back. But it also, that's a mirroring technique as well. You build rapport that way. You help them to show you their baseline by using their work.

Steve-o (01:01:19.278)
Mm-hmm.

Tony Benjamin (01:01:33.009)
Well, they know they're being heard, so they relax. They're not as defensive or pushy about it. Now, I, and there for a minute, Steve, I kind of laughed because I had that, I had a flashback to Seinfeld in my head. Not that there's anything wrong with that. see, see, see, Steve hasn't seen that episode, have you? No, geez. geez.

Derik Clark (01:01:47.142)
No.

Steve-o (01:01:53.272)
I've never seen Seinfeld, so there you go. I have to laugh at moments like this because Tony, I just don't watch TV as much or movies as much as Tony does. I have decided.

Derik Clark (01:01:55.902)
man, we're-

Derik Clark (01:02:04.52)
We're leaving you out a couple times. Like with The Beatles, with Seinfeld, you're just not on the same pop culture page.

Steve-o (01:02:08.952)
telling you, just start bringing up stuff about the office and all that and you really got me lost.

Tony Benjamin (01:02:09.127)
That's right.

Tony Benjamin (01:02:12.733)
Not that there's anything wrong with that. My favorite part about the office is that's what she said jokes. a couple of years ago, my wife gave me a pair of socks. I still have them that says that's what she said. And it's got a picture of Michael Scott above them.

Derik Clark (01:02:14.91)
Ha

Derik Clark (01:02:33.886)
I think the best part about that is that he tries to not say it and he still can't.

Tony Benjamin (01:02:40.197)
Yeah, he can't help himself. That's right. Okay. All right. Well, let's let's leave that here because that was insightful. Let's let's run into the HR in life segment comes the good music right here.

Steve-o (01:02:52.086)
Yeah, here we go.

Tony Benjamin (01:03:11.887)
All right, all right. I love that. There you go. Now, Steve described that music to somebody the other day as then it turns into twangy country. I was like, no, that's not. He does say it sounds like a little yellowstone.

Steve-o (01:03:20.942)
It's not twangy. It's just, yeah, it's just where country is gone. Alabama, I always feel like Alabama was the country group that redefined country music of our day. They are the ones that truly redefined it.

Tony Benjamin (01:03:37.638)
them and the Eagles. Yep. They them and the Eagles. Yes. The Eagles started that process and then Alabama made it popular. I agree. OK. So here is it. So for those of you who are sports fans you will know that the NFL draft just happened recently and I know. Well stick with this stick with this. Anyways I find this fascinating and I find it

Steve-o (01:03:56.126)
You just lost half our listeners.

Tony Benjamin (01:04:04.733)
I find it fascinating every single year and it's more fascinating this year to me because of course the Steelers got a new head coach. And so everything they do is new like it's the first time in I don't know 30 years that they've revamped the entire coaching staff like from the ground up and it's I don't know it's I really find it fascinating. But one of the things that I really like about this is it's a window into organizational development.

So you go out, you hire, and they're all standing there waiting to be picked, but you go out and you hire, and in this case, this year they drafted 10 new people, and they bring them in, and they have to inculcate those people in their culture and get them up to speed. And not only that, but they're going to teach them specific skills to do it. if you don't know this, when you get drafted,

you had your college season or whatever, then you immediately start preparing for the draft. If you're really good, you get to go to the combine and you show off what you can do. And then a few weeks later you get the draft and the draft happens. And then you immediately go to the town where they drafted you and you have no idea where that's going to be. You show up and then they do OTAs, organized team activities. Yeah, organized team activity. Yeah, you bet. I'm here. But anyways,

Steve-o (01:05:21.708)
I was going to say, what's an OTA? Thanks for defining.

Tony Benjamin (01:05:31.708)
The you go and you show up and the first thing they do is introduce you to the public and they put a jersey on you and they give you a number and all that sort of stuff. But then it's mostly just the rookies. It's just the rookies there. And so then they teach them how to do this. And some of the steps that the Steelers do is number one they take their positional coaches and they spend lots of time with the individual. Number two they take a day away during this precious time because it's only a limited number of days.

and they go off to the Hall of Fame in Ohio and they show them in Ohio, are all the players that are in the Hall of Fame that have played for us and this is the legacy you're carrying. And if you don't take this seriously, it's like not only are you letting us down and your teammates down and you down, but you're letting like this long history of grades, tradition, everything down.

Steve-o (01:06:24.206)
tradition.

Tony Benjamin (01:06:28.061)
And there's some pressure there, but then they say, but we drafted you because we have the opinion that you have the ability to be here too. This is who and what we are and that sort of stuff. I love it. I love the idea that when someone comes on board, you say to them, you were hired or you were brought in to play this specific role, not just the job you're in, but the specific role within that.

Maybe that team's a little too hot headed, right? They run off and make quick decisions without thinking. You're the thoughtful guy. You have as much skill as they do, but you're the thoughtful guy. And we want you to slow that team down just a little, not a ton, but just a little. Here's your mission go. Anyways, I love it. There you go. Comments, please.

Derik Clark (01:07:14.462)
You know, I love, we've been talking a lot about the military. This is like something the military does as well, where like they always talk about from day one, hey, there's some time on our traditions that the army has, that the military has, that, you know, you know, we do things a certain way because we, yes, and we do make fun of the Air Force, the chair force, the chair-borne Rangers.

Tony Benjamin (01:07:32.327)
like we all make fun of the Air Force, right?

Steve-o (01:07:35.775)
the chair for us.

Steve-o (01:07:42.584)
haha

Tony Benjamin (01:07:43.847)
Keep going, sorry Derek, I just...

Derik Clark (01:07:44.286)
A lot of it might just be because they get better stuff than us and they're like the, we're like the stepchildren and they're the favorite child.

Tony Benjamin (01:07:56.178)
Yeah, but no, your purpose, the military does that too. They do that too. people, anybody who gets any sort of specialized training, they tell them they're elite in that.

Derik Clark (01:08:05.308)
Yeah. Yeah. Or like, like just everywhere you are, even in basic training, they're like you, you know, they tell you, you represent a small, small, small percentage of all of the American people and you're defending all of them. like, like, like, like there's, there's some things that set you apart. Yeah. And, and because of that, even in the moments that are absolutely, you know, just difficult.

Steve-o (01:08:24.224)
Yeah, very specific. Yeah.

Derik Clark (01:08:33.182)
Because of that, you know that you're a part of something bigger than you.

Steve-o (01:08:39.57)
I love that. I mean, I remember when we would talk at Applicant Pro, right? When we would interview people and take them on tours and things like that. Just, I love telling the story of here's how we created it. Here's how we built it. Here's what our, here's why we did it. You know, when I first met Ryan and we were going through that process of developing the software, I had just come from the recruiting world and I had gone through some of the headaches and pains that happened in that arena.

Tony Benjamin (01:08:39.771)
Yeah.

Steve-o (01:09:07.81)
And so this is why we did this. This was the purpose behind it. And I just, I always wanted to share that story because I wanted people to understand where it was coming from. And this is why you should care. Because when you get on the phone with the client and you're now helping them through their situation or whatever it is they're going through, I want you to think about this experience and think about the history so that that care comes out in your voice and comes out in the

things you offer or the recommendations that you make. All of those things I think are just always so, so critical. That's why I always, I love that aspect of going back to the history there and say, this is what we want you to be here too, right? We want to someday be able to see you here for future recruits and your pictures on this wall and your story is sitting here. Like those are kind of things you're trying to put in their minds if you will, that, hey, this could be you too. And we want it to be you.

I think it's more than just saying this could be you, but we want this to be you, that's why we picked you. And reminding people that this is what we picked you for, I just, feel like that's really powerful for the onboarding process.

Derik Clark (01:10:19.91)
I think that's when it's more than just a paycheck. When the moments when things get really hard, when you have those hard conversations, when you're not in agreement about something, it's the legacy. It's the culture. if it's just words on a wall, then it's not going to carry you through. But if it's actually embedded and ingrained in every decision that gets made, then it...

Steve-o (01:10:23.15)
Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (01:10:31.139)
Mm-hmm.

Derik Clark (01:10:48.892)
really has an impact to drive people through the difficult times.

Steve-o (01:10:53.73)
You're right, that carries the weight that's needed to push you through.

Tony Benjamin (01:10:58.311)
That's right. That's right. When you're when you're for lack of a better phrase in a foxhole and it's all muddy and gross and no one is around you and you're going to have to get yourself out of it. You know that you come embrace the suck. That's right.

Steve-o (01:11:07.47)
you

Derik Clark (01:11:09.458)
then you embrace the soul. But embrace the soul, but we embrace it together and then later, like you will always hear people, like veterans, you'll always hear them when they talk to each other, there's a special bond. And it's because, because not only did they go through the hard times, but they went through them understanding that culture and understanding that, yeah, yeah, and there's the...

Steve-o (01:11:32.45)
Yeah. And embracing that culture and subscribing to it.

Derik Clark (01:11:38.046)
There's a legacy that what you're doing actually means something. And that could be for any, you know, if you're in fintech, then it means that you're helping people make money to support their families. means, whatever, you know, if you're in hospital care, if you're in manufacturing, all those things mean that something can happen. And when...

Steve-o (01:11:39.64)
Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (01:11:43.758)
Mm-hmm.

Derik Clark (01:12:06.878)
you know when people understand where they fit in in a legacy project then that it makes a bigger difference

Tony Benjamin (01:12:15.579)
And you have your own vocabulary that comes with it and your own driving force. that's like, you know, the Steelers colors, right? We Steelers fans say black and gold. And a lot of the times people are, they're like, isn't that black and yellow? No, no, it's black and gold. It's black and gold, right?

Steve-o (01:12:19.32)
Yeah.

Derik Clark (01:12:31.43)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (01:12:34.871)
And in its beat you have your own vocabulary to it. You're you're internal to the team. You you all see it the same way. You all refer to it the same way. And it isn't because someone snickering over there in the corner and trying to catch you on on a particular vocabulary you used or something. It's because we have this internally and we refer to it this way. And I to me it's it's it's great. So well thanks guys. I appreciate this very much. You know Derek before we do this what have you got coming up.

What can we promote for you?

Derik Clark (01:13:06.046)
Well right now I am I'm actually looking for a new role as an HR business partner Or like senior HR business partner, maybe even a HR director So if if anyone is aware then you know you can have something then you can get a hold of me through through LinkedIn Just said D E R I K C L A R K I think I'm the only one that spells it like that but

Otherwise, yeah, my mom, was, it So yeah, so like I'm just looking for new opportunities. And, but also if, if anyone is, you know, wants to do a lunch and learn about, about some, just how body language can, can be used as, as leaders or in an organization, non-verbals, lunch and learns or.

Steve-o (01:13:36.972)
Yeah, it is a unique spelling.

Tony Benjamin (01:13:37.351)
Or your mom spelled it like that, yeah.

Derik Clark (01:14:04.638)
Just workshops or anything like that then I'm open to Open a sharing

Tony Benjamin (01:14:12.529)
Wonderful. Thank you.

Steve-o (01:14:12.546)
Yeah, and they're they're solid too. I've been to a few now and yeah, if your organization really wants your managers to understand that not everybody is lying to them all the time, because I hear that way too much. This is a good opportunity to have a professional come in and actually help them understand that. Yeah, they're probably not lying, but they're definitely uncomfortable. And what does that mean? What does that look like in your organization? And how do we how do we recognize that so that we're not?

Derik Clark (01:14:37.51)
How do you address it?

Steve-o (01:14:40.032)
automatically assuming something about the applicant that sometimes leads to poor decisions. So.

Tony Benjamin (01:14:47.325)
Yeah, well that's cool. I know that Derek is going to come up here and present to Basin HR and unfortunately I won't be there that day. That sucks for me, but I'm going to make them record it.

Steve-o (01:14:51.726)
Yep. Yep.

Steve-o (01:14:55.822)
It does. I was going to say you better record it.

Derik Clark (01:14:58.526)
So if anyone in the area, in the Vernal area, please...

Steve-o (01:15:04.792)
Vernal, Roosevelt, Uintah Basin, the whole area, yeah, they should definitely come up and see it. Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (01:15:07.057)
Yeah, yeah, up here. Yeah, it'll be in three days. So the sad part is this, this will come out after that. But, but having said that, you're exactly right. And anyways, Derek is everyone I know is excited to see him up here. And if you want him to speak at your conference or whatever, we'll put a link in the in the show notes, you can get ahold of him or you can, or you can send a message to Steve and I at the HR life podcast or the HR life podcast at gmail.com. That way you don't

Derik Clark (01:15:14.173)
Yeah.

Steve-o (01:15:15.992)
Ha

Tony Benjamin (01:15:36.112)
two E's in it. But anyways, yeah, yeah, and we'll put you in touch with Derek and Derek will help you out. Derek, I've learned a ton from you today. And I've, I've learned that I had general ideas about stuff, right. And you talking about this and your heed method is added a whole new dimension to the sorts of stuff I've been doing. And I'm super appreciative of that. Thank you. This is, this is good information.

Steve-o (01:15:36.376)
Yeah, we'll get you in touch.

Derik Clark (01:16:03.464)
Thanks for having me. It's really good to talk to you. It's just real easy to interact with both of you. I just really dig on the conversation, so thanks.

Tony Benjamin (01:16:15.431)
Well cool and it helps that Steve is so cute, so right?

Derik Clark (01:16:18.204)
Yeah. Cute as a button.

Tony Benjamin (01:16:21.371)
That's right. Cute Steve.

Steve-o (01:16:21.666)
Wow, it's like my mom says, right?

Derik Clark (01:16:25.053)
Hahaha

Tony Benjamin (01:16:26.461)
All right. Pucks for autism proves that when communities rally families win their hockey tournaments raise local funds that support autism programming inclusion and connection for kids and adults everywhere. Join the team that plays with purpose visit pucks for autism.com that's pucks for autism.com and get involved today. Yep.

Another great opportunity and a shout out there and Claire and we miss seeing you or talking to you Claire. We're gonna have to get her back on. I say that all the time but dang it I miss Claire. There you go. She is she is. So anyways there you go. Derek again thanks for being here with us.

Steve-o (01:17:04.91)
She's a good conversation for sure.

Tony Benjamin (01:17:13.607)
For everybody, Steve and I were about to see you in just a couple of days at the Fuel HR Conference. We're excited about that. And that will be in the past when you hear this, but if you didn't see us there, you missed out. Just saying. So, I'm Steve.

Steve-o (01:17:17.806)
Yeah, at the FuelHR conference, yep.

Steve-o (01:17:25.454)
Yeah, yeah. Aren't we gonna do our HR life segment, right? That's how we're gonna do it there, so.

Tony Benjamin (01:17:32.669)
Yeah, we're going to. Yeah, that's right. At the conference, we're going to do the HR light and life segment. And and you'll get to you get to interact a little bit with that. I don't know. I'm thinking about something like you throw tomatoes and when Steve says something incorrect. So that might be that's I might. I might. It's not hard. You just go to the grocery store, get the rotten ones. The little cherry tomatoes. Yeah, they could throw those. That's right.

Steve-o (01:17:47.244)
Are you going to provide the tomatoes?

Actually, there might be tomatoes on the little salads, you the little tiny ones, the little tomatillos or whatever. They could totally throw those. That'd be fun.

Derik Clark (01:18:02.878)
We might bounce off.

Tony Benjamin (01:18:03.099)
That's right. Usually. Yeah, usually. All right.

Steve-o (01:18:04.558)
Right?

Steve-o (01:18:08.545)
That's right, because when people try to bring me down, I just let it bounce right off. There you go. My optimism's shining through.

Derik Clark (01:18:12.409)
Hahaha!

Tony Benjamin (01:18:12.765)
Oh, that's so sweet. What lemonade? What lemonade you're making there for Steve. I really appreciate that. All right, guys, I think we're going to head out the same way that we came in.

Steve-o (01:18:19.214)
That's right. That's right.

Tony Benjamin (01:18:28.913)
Thank you for listening to today's podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a five star review. That's a five star review on your favorite podcast app. Comments or questions for us? Email the podcast at thehrlifepodcast.gmail.com and we'll talk again soon.