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The Still Human Podcast is for teachers, leaders and school staff navigating the realities of working in education today.
Hosted by Julie Liddell and part of Edwin People's wellbeing and culture offering, this podcast features thoughtful conversations with teachers, principals, psychologists, authors and education leaders exploring what matters most: leadership in schools, staff culture, workload, burnout and sustainability.
Each episode focuses on supporting the people behind the roles, because thriving educational communities start with looking after the humans within them.
Still Human delivers training, workshops and strategic support for staff wellbeing and thriving cultures. Edwin People provide strategic leadership and HR services that help schools and multi-academy trusts grow confidently with people-centred solutions. Both part of the Edwin group, we work together to positively impact the lives of young people.
Learn more at www.stillhuman.co.uk and www.edwinpeople.co.uk
[00:00:00] Julie: Welcome to the Still Human Podcast, where we dive deep into the heart of staff wellbeing within the education sector. In each episode, we bring to the table a diverse array of guests, including experienced teachers and leaders, experts in psychology, health and wellbeing, as well as thought leaders in the sector.
[00:00:17] Whether you are looking for practical tips, inspirational stories, or innovative approaches to wellbeing, our podcast aims to [00:00:25] support, inspire, and empower those dedicated to nurturing the next generation. I'm your. Host Julie Liddell, and today I'm chatting to Helena Marsh. Helena is an experienced school and trust leader.
[00:00:37] She's in her 10th year of secondary headship at Linton Village College. Helena has also been a mat. CEO is a member of the Head Teacher's Roundtable and a co-founder of Women. Ed Helena has an interest in teacher [00:00:50] collaboration, the focus of her ate. She was involved in the DFEs Workload Challenge, relational schools research, and is an advocate for flexible working.
[00:00:59] She's written books. About English teaching and book chapters and articles about leadership, teacher workload, and culture. She's also a huge supporter of the MTPT project, A among of three, Helena lives by her values and is a strong believer in compassionate and [00:01:15] empathetic leadership. It was really lovely to chat with the very grounded Helena about her views on leadership, the power of coaching, and the benefits of flexible work.
[00:01:25] As well as poetry, the joys of marking and being known in some quarters as Mrs. Fluffy enjoy.
[00:01:38] Hi Helena. Welcome [00:01:40] and thank you so much for joining me today.
[00:01:42] Helena: Okay. Nice to have the invite. Thank you.
[00:01:44] Julie: So Helena, you are principal at Linton Village College. You're a member of the Head Teachers round table. You are co-chair of Cambridgeshire Secondary Heads Association and co-founder of. Women Ed, I wonder if we could just start by asking you to tell us a little bit about your [00:02:05] journey to becoming principal, a little bit about your background.
[00:02:08] Helena: Sure. So I was originally born in Bosnia. I moved over to the UK when I was two and grew up in North Hampton. And I always had a bit of an inkling that had teaching in my bones, although none of my family were teachers or have been to university. So originally with. Teachers that I think they had that my best interest in mind.
[00:02:24] They were pushing me towards law and other subjects. I was gonna go after uni to study law. But from doing a bit of [00:02:30] work experience in my old middle school, I just kind of had that real bug and thirst for, for getting indication. So I changed my LA mind last minute, went into a degree in English literature and ended up doing teach training.
[00:02:42] At Cambridge Uni and have kind of stayed around the area ever since really? So I've been teaching 22 years now and still still teaching English to key stage four. I came through the fast track teaching route when that existed. So [00:02:55] from a very early stage in my career, had opportunities for leadership development and training and coaching, which I think was great.
[00:03:02] Um, sadly, that initiative no longer runs. And so quite early in my teaching career, I ended up picking up responsibility through, through curriculum route initially, um, became head of English, assistant head responsible for professional learning, CPD, then quality of education, assessment, et cetera. [00:03:20] And then my head, Caroline Dario, when I started this role as deputy, so very quickly decided she was was leaving and it was one of those, if not you, then who moments and a lot of tapping on the shoulder and soul searching and.
[00:03:31] S slightly prematurely perhaps, and maybe by surprise ended up, um, sitting in the chair and that was nearly 10 years ago now.
[00:03:39] Julie: So that's interesting that you're a teaching head.
[00:03:41] Helena: Yeah, I tried not doing it on two [00:03:45] occasions, but I like it too much. So I convinced myself that it's beneficial for the children, the school, but selfishly I think it keeps me grounded and I still have that real.
[00:03:54] I like marking. I'm still a GCC examiner. Um, I like teaching, so yeah,
[00:03:59] Julie: I'm, but I am now gonna say what is wrong with you? Like teaching you all day long? The teaching tall again, the [00:04:10] marking not so much. And is it English literature that you teach or is it English language?
[00:04:18] Helena: Yes. The way I teach, i, I do the poetry unit for our year 11 cohort.
[00:04:23] Which is my favorite. Okay.
[00:04:24] Julie: Yeah. Okay. I get that. I get that. But a, as a, a, a former teacher myself, and we had a study, um, by Milgram, you've probably heard of it, but like after 26 years, I was just [00:04:35] like, I'm not sure I can read another essay about Milgram. I just, I dunno whether I can do it. So fair play to you.
[00:04:41] But poetry I get. Port, I'm now gonna ask you about poetry very quickly. Name some of your favorite poets. Who do you love?
[00:04:48] Helena: I'm a bit of a mixed by. I love, I love all the contemporary stuff, and actually the thing I like teaching the most is unseen poetry because I find it really fascinating how children bring completely different [00:05:00] insights into a text and notice things that maybe the poet has never discovered.
[00:05:04] So. Yeah, there's lots of poets that I enjoy. I'm a bit of a super fan of the ones that have been on the syllabus, like Simon Armitage. But I think ultimately it's the, the connection that children have with it and the way that they relate it to their own lived experiences that I find. Really interesting.
[00:05:20] Julie: Yeah, I think it's that it's, it's another form of like expression, isn't it? And [00:05:25] um, a way of processing, um, thoughts and feelings that win maybe is not very good at articulating. I've always thought poetry was a brilliant vehicle for that. And now I could actually talk to you for the next 40 minutes about poetry, but yeah, I'm with you with Simon Armitage.
[00:05:41] Absolutely. Um, okay, so. Tell me a little bit about your leadership style. What does, what does your leadership style look like?
[00:05:49] Helena: [00:05:50] Um, very relational, definitely the sort of mantra of human first, professional. Second in that I really care about building relationships with people and very collaborative. I think when I did my masters, I ended up, I think that's what happens when you, when you do further study, I ended up doing, um, my big sort of thesis and piece of research about relationships.
[00:06:11] First of all, teach pupil relationships and then what are the [00:06:15] conditions needed for teachers to be able to collaborate effectively. And I think that's the areas that I feel. Most interested in and most passionate about as a leader? Leadership's for the long game. You know, you can, you can do things, you can be directive and command and control and quite red drive, and you can make things happen and turn things around.
[00:06:32] But ultimately education is not. A competitive sport, it's something that we invest in and we think about the [00:06:40] human beings involved. Um, so yeah, approachable, grounded. I think my staff, I hope my staff would say, um, Mrs. Fluffy, I've been called on occasion in the past.
[00:06:50] Julie: Oh, have you?
[00:06:52] Helena: I see that as an endearing.
[00:06:53] Epithet. So I'm okay with that.
[00:06:54] Julie: Yeah, absolutely. I know you spoke recently, didn't you, at the Festival of Education and, and you were speaking I think with some, um, some peers on emotional [00:07:05] intelligence. Do you think that emotional intelligence is a core part of how we should be preparing managers and leaders?
[00:07:14] Um, and do you think it's something that can be taught really? What are your thoughts around that?
[00:07:19] Helena: I think a lot of the leadership training traditionally has been around. You just gotta have a vision and it's very sort of leader centric rather than necessarily thinking about the wider dynamic. [00:07:30] There has been some changes I think I've led on, um, I think it was the teach first MPQH around emotion in leadership that, that, that particular program has as a module and I think it's kind of an unspoken about.
[00:07:41] Topic really like you've sort of hinted at it's that feeling, well some people get it, some people don't. It comes naturally or it doesn't, I don't think we can afford not to be emotionally intelligent as leaders, but I don't think it's necessarily given the [00:07:55] amount of airtime and focus either 'cause it's seen as fluffy or kind of subsidiary to other qualities, knowledge, skills, attributes as a leader or 'cause it makes people feel uncomfortable.
[00:08:05] It's a bit too touchy feely. They don't really wanna go there. But actually you often get promoted as a leader 'cause you're good at your stuff. Whether your stuff is pastoral, whether it's curriculum. But as you grow and develop in a managerial or a leadership role, it's [00:08:20] your ability to get the best out of the people that you lead.
[00:08:24] That makes the biggest difference. So if you're not taking into account what makes us human, which is our emotions, then I think kind of missing the point.
[00:08:32] Julie: Yeah, I think I very much agree and I, and I think there is maybes. Particularly at that middle management level, there's potentially that missing piece of the jigsaw, isn't it?
[00:08:42] As you rightly say, that people get promoted because they're [00:08:45] good at their job or they are, you know, they have certain skills, but not necessarily that people management. And actually when we think about. Staff in education and their wellbeing. It's the people that usually, you know, play a significant role, isn't it, in, in making that situation either better or worse.
[00:09:03] So, you know, I think, I think I'd very much agree with you that that emotional intelligence is a huge part, but [00:09:10] still not. Necessarily seen as important by all. It's still in that fluffy camp, as you say, but then you are Mrs. Fluffy. So, um, I know which side of the fence you sit on. You've also mentioned something there, uh, you mentioned about coaching and coaching programs, but as far as I understand it that you do have some sort of.
[00:09:30] Program at school, is that right? Do you run some sort of coaching?
[00:09:34] I think [00:09:35] coaching is a term that's used quite loosely at the moment
[00:09:38] Helena: and,
[00:09:38] and has become quite ubiquitous.
[00:09:40] Helena: Um,
[00:09:40] for us, we are trying to be quite intentional about upskilling leaders in how to be more coaching in their approach. We've particularly focused on how that looks in line management arrangements, and I think for us it's about shifting that culture from one of sort of top down leadership and problem solving.
[00:09:57] To enabling colleagues and empowering [00:10:00] colleagues. Schools are really fast-paced, busy, noisy environments, and I think sometimes we can fall into the trap of leaders of being the fixers, and then we can create this culture of sort of learned helplessness with our colleagues, approaching with a problem, wanting an answer, wanting a solution.
[00:10:16] And I think the pandemic probably didn't help with that because that was often what we were doing as leaders, right? We're restaffing the school, we're changing everything. Here's the directive for the [00:10:25] day.
[00:10:25] Helena: Um.
[00:10:25] And if you've been on a school improvement journey like we have, sometimes you can end up with staff that kind of always look up for reassurance or for someone else to make the final call.
[00:10:34] So for us, it's about shifting that culture to multiply the leadership within the organisation
[00:10:39] Helena: So myself and my deputy are doing a level five, um, coaching qualification to kind of upskill ourselves initially. And we've invested in training with the senior leadership team. To try to [00:10:50] just develop people's coaching skills and approaches as leaders.
[00:10:53] Julie: Yeah, and I think that that there's, um, you know, that kind of looking for that fixed approach in the leaders, there's an emotional load for the leaders there as well. And, you know, if we're thinking about protecting our leaders, as we know, kind of stress levels are significantly higher. For leaders in schools at the minute, you know, I suppose coaching is one tool [00:11:15] and one way that, that we can, can reduce that and kind of share the Lord as it were.
[00:11:19] Are staff responding well to that then know the, a kind of that coaching model?
[00:11:23] Helena: Yeah, it's been well received by the senior leadership team and it's sort of trickling through, I think I'm wary of it seeming like a new shiny thing right now we're coaching. Um, I think it's more about sort of turning the dial on that and nudging the way that people do it so that it becomes organic and it's not.
[00:11:39] A fad [00:11:40] that comes and goes. Um, so yeah, I think it is being well received and there's a kind of critical feeling amongst the team that, yeah, that's the next phase of really, particularly, like you say, middle leadership is so crucial within any organization. We don't want them being helpless or. Reliant on always kind of coming to their line management meeting with a list of things for someone else to help them solve.
[00:12:01] We want to, it goes deeper as well, I think, when you start to have proper coaching [00:12:05] conversations.
[00:12:05] Julie: Yeah, absolutely. So in terms of kind of, if we kind of broaden out to, to kind of staff wellbeing then, we've touched on a few of those things there. What does staff wellbeing look like in practice at your college?
[00:12:17] Is there a, a focus on it or is it a little bit more organic and embedded? What's kind of the approach or your approach to. To staff wellbeing.
[00:12:25] Helena: It's evolved over time. So since I started here as deputy 11 years [00:12:30] ago, we've been looking at it really intentionally, and I think in the early days there were some very specific systems led things around, right?
[00:12:37] We're getting rid of data drops and the way that we do reports because we can see that they are. In terms of input and output, not particularly efficient or fit for purpose in terms of the time it takes colleagues to do, and I think that's evolved over time through having feedback, surveying [00:12:55] staff, creating an open culture of communication.
[00:12:57] We've developed over the last three years, a workload and wellbeing charter, and that's morphed into a culture code as well.
[00:13:04] Helena: To go from, you know,
[00:13:05] some things really tangible, but make a big difference, like having free milk, tea, and coffee in the staff room, which most schools do despite budgetary pressures.
[00:13:12] It just eases the morning.
[00:13:14] Helena: People haven't gotta get territorial over a half pint of milk in the fridge.
[00:13:18] It's just common [00:13:20] sense. But there's more nuanced things about how we communicate with each other, how we look out for each other, what kind of language we use in emails. So I think. There are certain things in our charter that we started, which are very whole school.
[00:13:32] This is what we're doing at a whole school level, whether it's to do with meetings, emails, catering, whatever. And then over time we've introduced a layer of, and what do we do at department level? So it doesn't depend on, oh, actually I'm an [00:13:45] ECT in MFL and I'm an ECT in science. And my wellbeing feels very different because whoever my line manager is, or how admin works and my team, and then it's developed into.
[00:13:55] What responsibilities do we have as individuals, as employees for ourselves and each other? So for instance, on our charter it says, we're not gonna fearmonger, we're not gonna use the phrase because Ofsted or SLT have said, because that's something [00:14:10] that can affect people's wellbeing that everyone
[00:14:12] Helena: I
[00:14:12] owns.
[00:14:13] Helena: So it's, I think it's being a more. Obvious about wellbeing. So from the top, it's making sure that every year when we put the calendar together, we think really carefully about pinch points and when's the school production gonna be, and do we want two late Thursday nights with parents' evenings in a row?
[00:14:29] And it's that kind of conversation, but a very granular level. Sometimes it's conflict [00:14:35] resolution between two colleagues that have been a bit mean to each other, um, because actually that might weigh really heavily and that's not good for anybody's wellbeing. So it's a kind of all levels really.
[00:14:44] Julie: So that charter, um, sounds fantastic when you were creating that charter.
[00:14:48] I'm just thinking of anybody who might be listening in thinking they might wanna go through that process. How did you develop that charter? Was staff involved in that charter or was that from. The leadership team, how did that [00:15:00] evolve?
[00:15:00] Helena: So it started with a working party where we pulled together what makes a difference, what are we doing as a school, or what could we be doing as a school that makes a difference to workload and wellbeing.
[00:15:09] Then we revisited that at numerous training days to get feedback on it and say, okay, well is this happening? Does it make a difference? And it's something, we have a, a training day in June every year where we sort of look back on the year and look ahead to college improvement priorities. And it's become a standing [00:15:25] item of that where we have an input.
[00:15:27] Some sort of input. This year we had Kel come along to do actually a training item on workload and wellbeing, but it's an opportunity for us to revisit that, remind everybody of it, get input on it, and look for where we think we need to make improvements or developments. But I think it's, it's kind of shifted really to consider.
[00:15:45] As I said, not, not because it's a cop out, but what is everybody's role in this? [00:15:50] Because my wellbeing is not the same as your wellbeing necessarily. So we can't make assumptions that these 15 things are equally important to everyone, but it can, there can be microclimates within certain teams and pockets of the schools.
[00:16:02] So how do we make sure that everyone's on board with that and, and addressing anything that we feel has, has lapsed or been missed? At the same time knowing that our budget is non-existent in the same sector.
[00:16:14] Julie: Absolutely. And, [00:16:15] and sort of the training that we, we deliver is always that, making sure that everybody knows what their responsibility is within this whole sort of jigsaw.
[00:16:24] But obviously the more that staff feel involved, like it sounds like they, they kind of review and contribute and, and it grows and develops the more kind of buy-in. That you, you're obviously you are gonna have there.
[00:16:35] Helena: And some of it's about being transparent and saying, we can't change these things. You know, class [00:16:40] sizes are the size they are, or, you know, non-contact time is what it is, here are the choices we have and, and being open.
[00:16:45] And sometimes the feedback is actually, we know it's tough, but getting. A conversation started about it and being transparent about things like the budget has, has received, been received well,
[00:16:55] Julie: yeah. So I'm gonna just to kind of pivot a little bit off this way, um, and I wanna come back to women Ed. You are co-founder [00:17:05] of Women Ed.
[00:17:06] Can you tell me a little bit more about what Women Ed is and how and why it came about?
[00:17:13] Helena: Yeah, absolutely. So it came about by surprise really. Um, back in 2015, I attended a women in Leadership event in London with a, with a friend that I trained with. And having finished that day. It was at a private school, [00:17:30] Newton Prep School in London.
[00:17:31] I, I blogged about it. At the time, there was a platform called Staff Room for Teachers set up by Pep Andray, a colleague. Um, and I wrote a blog reflecting on how amazing the opportunity had been, but also a little bit disconcerting. It had really made me reflect on, is this still an issue? We've had the Qualities Act in 2010.
[00:17:49] There shouldn't be a problem anymore if you're a female leader. You know, ceilings are smashed, nobody's getting in [00:17:55] your way, et cetera. But, but there was something a bit strange about being entirely in a, a room full of ambitious women still having these conversations about imposter syndrome or glass ceilings, et cetera.
[00:18:06] So, and then it just kind of, that was a bit of a catalyst really. I wrote this blog and then it took off online in a way that I hadn't experienced before. Lots of people chipped in with comments. I guess my main point of the [00:18:20] blog is it, it is, there's still a glass ceiling and my reflections that. Having trained with four other really capable, amazing women.
[00:18:28] I was the only one who had a leadership role within a school. They'd all started then had a family or moved sideways or left the profession, and it was kind of reflecting on that. And then Jill Berry, Dr. Jill Berry, sort of wrote a response to my blog called Lost Leaders, where she kind of picked up [00:18:45] some of those themes and then it just kind of.
[00:18:47] Yeah, kinda exploded really into a really big online conversation where a few of us were saying, well, maybe we need to have a community. Maybe we need to have a little event where we could talk about these issues and bring women together. Then somebody from Microsoft on Twitter who's quite high up in Microsoft said, well, we can have our head office if you'd like, if you want to run a little event.
[00:19:06] Um, so it all kind of strangely happened, whereby me and six other [00:19:10] women in various parts of the UK. Met on a kind of blind date in a hotel somewhere south of London, um, for a cream tea, and made it happen and drew a logo on the back of a napkin and created a social media account. And there it was. So 10 years later, it's kind of grown to this international network in all parts of the world.
[00:19:31] Um, but I think the, the main philosophy is creating a safe space in [00:19:35] which. Women can connect, can talk and sort of recognize that in themselves and support each other. And the, the values of women ed originated from that initial meeting, but have grown and developed and regional, um, teams have popped up and yeah, it's just about a community of support really.
[00:19:52] Julie: Do you think much has changed in those 10 years? About the voices and the themes and the narrative. Are they all [00:20:00] still similar to, to when you started?
[00:20:02] Helena: I think there's more that's now being spoken about intersectionality, which is really important so that there's, there's more of a diverse conversation now about, um, the potential barriers.
[00:20:14] You know, it might not be a glass ceiling, it might actually be a concrete one or a glass cliff that certain colleagues are dealing with. I think achievements around making conversations about flexible working more. [00:20:25] Mainstream, gathering more momentum, having the ear of the Secretary of State around topics like that, raising awareness of the gender pay gap in education and why for a sector that should be so women friendly, you know, has been amongst the worst in terms of, um, the statistics there.
[00:20:41] So yeah, I think it's, it's created some leverage and it's cleared a path. For some main, more mainstream conversations about these things, but I think there's more [00:20:50] to be done.
[00:20:50] Julie: I, I agree. And that, that gender pay gap blows my mind. Given, as you say, we're a female dominated sector, and that, that is such an issue within the sector and
[00:21:00] Helena: with pay scales, you know, in a sector that predominantly has.
[00:21:04] Set salary scales for roles.
[00:21:06] Julie: Yeah. Big issue. So you co-authored, didn't you? A chapter called Flexing Your School. Just picking up on that, uh, flexible working, uh, in the book. 10% [00:21:15] braver. Can you speak to the benefits that you've seen or hoped to see around more sort of flexible working practices within schools?
[00:21:23] And is that something that you kind of. Practice within within your college?
[00:21:28] Helena: I think it's just fundamental for recruitment and retention in the profession. We know that we have real challenges, not only with attrition rates in the first five years of teaching, but more importantly I would say for [00:21:40] women in their thirties, once they start a family, they're the biggest sector of the profession that leave bigger than those that retire.
[00:21:46] So I think it's just. Crucial. And I think if you flip it on its head and say, well, what are we, then inflexible, is that okay that we, that's how we pitch ourselves. I just think it's good for business. So often conversations about flexible work come from a place of equity and equality, but I think if you ignore that, it's not just about is it fair and legally, [00:22:05] do I have to, I think there's a whole segment of the profession that you're ignoring.
[00:22:09] The person that wants to do part-time study or, you know, carry on and do a master's in their spare time or do another job or be free to go to festivals. It's not just people with caring responsibilities. Yeah, so at Linton, we've a significant proportion of our workforce have some sort of flexible working arrangement.
[00:22:29] We've got a [00:22:30] a lot of TLR holders. Who do work part-time or, or different kinds of arrangements. We've got a job share in a, in a middle leadership role. Um, lots of our admin staff work on contracts that we've kind of made bespoke to them because it fits around their life. And as a result of that, we've managed to recruit and retain some really exceptional people that if we've just gone, oh no, it's a receptionist post, it has to be full time and you have to start at this time and [00:22:55] finish at this time, we wouldn't have the same amazing team because it wouldn't fit what else is going on in their life.
[00:23:00] We've got an assistant head who is on a nought 0.8 contract. Um, she actually works a day a week for Cambridge University as a subject tutor and you know, professional tutor. So that's win-win for us. We've got that in with our ITT provider and a really capable assistant head who's got to appoint in her career here where she wants to do something a bit different.
[00:23:18] So I always think about, [00:23:20] can it work? How can we make this work rather than, oh no. And we deliberately, every year in November time, put out a survey. Are you thinking about any flexible working for next year? What could that look like? And some people are like, oh, you ask people, the flood gates will open.
[00:23:34] You'll never be able to accommodate everybody's request. But actually sometimes it's so marginal, like, oh, I've got a a free on a Thursday afternoon on week one. Could I possibly pick my child up from [00:23:45] school and come back if I've got a meeting? It's like, yeah, that's fine. So it's just creating that environment where you encourage it, you may, you normalize it, and schools can be very.
[00:23:56] Square peg, round hole institutions because of timetabling. Know everything that's rigid, but I think we just have to be a bit more creative than that.
[00:24:04] Julie: I had a interesting conversation with Deborah Ley, who's the CEO. I don't, I'm not sure whether you [00:24:10] know Deborah, but she's a flexible working ambassador for the DFE, and she does exactly the same as you just said, she, she offers.
[00:24:17] She puts the question out regularly, uh, and people have the same reaction, like, why would you do that? Why would she do that? And, and her response was very similar to you, that actually you'd be surprised. The requests aren't, she's not, suddenly, everybody doesn't want Monday and Friday off, you know? Uh, that's not what [00:24:35] happens.
[00:24:35] There's people and often, and often sometimes it's just a phase, isn't it? To go and do some extra study for maybe says a couple of years, or, you know, perhaps it is caring responsibilities or whatever it is. I think, you know, we've got to get better at recognizing that that can bring richness to the organization.
[00:24:53] Um, that I, I do think traditionally was lacking in the education sector and I still think [00:25:00] is, uh, broadly speaking. And, you know, I, for one, experienced the timetable says no on several occasions. Um, and I stepped down to, to part-time after working in, in a, I won't give too much detail anyway, working somewhere for a long time and wanted to go four days because I wanted to develop.
[00:25:19] You know, some things, uh, that I was doing outside of work and was told I could go for [00:25:25] four days, but I had to teach first lesson on a Friday, so I could have Monday to Thursday, but the only way the timetable could work is I couldn't have a full day off on Friday. I had to teach nine till 10. So every Friday my day off, I had to go and teach nine till 10.
[00:25:41] And that was how I got my four days, which looking back, it's just crazy. It's just crazy on every level [00:25:50] that no one thought that and myself included, to question that. I just took it. Right. Okay. This is what my four days looks like over five days with one hour on a morning.
[00:26:02] Helena: I think some people are scared of splitting classes or doing things differently where parents might not like that or students might, but you can do it in a strategic way.
[00:26:12] To say, well, we're deliberately doing it like this. Like me [00:26:15] teaching one hour of poetry to every year 11 class means that part-time English teachers, we can make the timetable work, but we're doing it in a way that kind of suits different reasons. And I think it's another way that in cash strap times, you can actually balance the budget rather than saying, oh, a full-time teacher's left, let's always replace them with a full-time replacement.
[00:26:31] Oh, actually we only need 23 hours of geography. Let's think a bit more creatively about how we could make that happen.
[00:26:37] Julie: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's where [00:26:40] you also then get the goodwill from the staff, isn't it? If you're able to kind of have that flexibility around it. Nobody just feels a bit happier, don't they?
[00:26:46] Which is ultimately what we want for our children and young people is staff who are, you know, on the whole happy, uh, and happy with their arrangements, you know? And I also think it's more beneficial for society as a whole if we can have that flexibility around kind of working hours. So if we just turn [00:27:05] to kind of leadership and, uh, yourself, I, I've had many conversations and the theme that comes up quite regularly is that many leaders describe headship as quite a lonely, isolated role.
[00:27:18] What's been your experience of that and is there anything that's helped you kind of stay connected and supported over the years?
[00:27:27] Helena: I always say I've never found it lonely. I [00:27:30] think there's a few reasons for that, but perhaps because of my interest in collaboration and relationships, I've always had networks that I can draw upon that I've kind of self-built.
[00:27:40] So externally being part of the head teachers round table, having peers as heads that. We meet up regularly and, and catch up and sort of build those relationships. I've got an amazing senior team and I would class them as friends. You know, some people would pull a face at that and [00:27:55] say, Ooh, you are not friends with your colleagues.
[00:27:57] 'cause you need to be able to hold 'em to account. But I think that's quite a strange way of. Looking at the world where you're from, a default position of, but what if you need to have a go at someone, you know, you can't be too close to them. Oh, is that how we're gonna lead our school? Um, so we've been through, you know, a pandemic, a really difficult offset inspection, critical incidents.
[00:28:15] But I think the fact that we have really strong relationships, I've never felt [00:28:20] lonely. I can be open, we can have honest conversations with each other. We've got each other's backs. So I think it comes down to relationships, having that support network around you. Sometimes when the going gets tough as a head, I think it's quite easy to just look in, crack on with the to-do list, get to the bottom of the inbox, write that report for governors and all those things are really important.
[00:28:40] But I think unless you make time to look outward, whether that's [00:28:45] attending an event, making time to go out for dinner with another head teacher going on a training course you can, you can end up feeling like, oh, if I'm not in the building. That's not right. I can feel a bit guilty, people need me, but that's not a good sign of leadership if you just become really operational and stuck.
[00:29:02] And I think there's a, there's a sweet spot to find where you can be energized and nourished and have that. That [00:29:10] energy as ahead by, by getting the balance right.
[00:29:12] Julie: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's that support, isn't it? I think it's that kind of reaching out and finding that support and recognizing that it's absolutely part of your role, uh, and making it a priority.
[00:29:24] In a recent article then, for Tes, you spoke, and I think this was the first article that I read of yours, you described that appointing and developing staff as one of the most [00:29:35] joyful aspects of being a head teacher. What makes that. Rewarding as part of your role and, and how do you approach nurturing your team?
[00:29:43] I
[00:29:43] Helena: think it's a massive privilege to be able to. Pick your team for want of a better phrase. You know, as a head you have the ultimate say about the people that you want to surround yourself with and, and the staff that young people are going to get. And you know, not to say that recruitment isn't challenging, but [00:30:00] I think once you start to build a bit of a reputation locally for the kind of culture that you stand for, in the way that you lead, I think that has helped us despite sort of ups and downs in our academic reputation as a school.
[00:30:10] We've become known for that kind of relational. Human scale approach, and I think that's been helpful. I think in the same way that what gets you into teaching is to make a difference. I think it's really gratifying when you feel like you're making a difference with staff. So when I've [00:30:25] got colleagues that I, I was a professional tutor for when they were A NQT back in the day and now they're on the extended leadership team, I'm really proud of them.
[00:30:32] You know, it's a really lovely feeling to have seen them grow and to provided them with opportunities and to encourage them. To develop in lots of ways, and I think Jill Barry talks a lot about the sphere influence. You know, as a leader quite a lot of the things are the same, but your sphere of influence when you are, when you're ahead and when your [00:30:50] leading organization grows.
[00:30:51] So it's actually, you know, the people below you for want of a better phrase that that spread that. So in. In building that culture, in helping staff to grow and develop. That's how you set it across the school. I don't believe in sort of hero headship where it's all about gravitas and charisma and walking down a corridor and people falling over you.
[00:31:10] I think it's how you. You create that through the people that your point [00:31:15] and the way that you lead and the way that you help them to grow. And like you said, there's a, the school's basically fueled on discretionary effort. If people actually work to rule in schools would be in a lot of trouble. So I think the way you treat people and how you look after them bears fruit in all sorts of different ways.
[00:31:29] And I, and I personally find that a real perk of the job.
[00:31:32] Julie: It was lovely. It's a lovely article. I would suggest that people read it. Just, um, yeah, it's uh, exactly what we kind of. [00:31:40] Need in the sector within our leaders to kind of talk about that process and that part of being developing staff and having them on board as, as being joyful.
[00:31:49] It was that expression of you, you finding it so joyful. So. I feel like we've touched on this a little bit already, and you obviously surround yourself with a good support network, but undoubtedly there's a lot of emotional labor working in education and, and [00:32:05] arguably a lot of emotional labor at, at, at your level, at kind of headship level.
[00:32:09] So how do you personally stay well and resilient, um, as a leader and, and how do you model it for your team?
[00:32:17] Helena: I really enjoy work and I'm quite open about that with colleagues. So when people say things like, oh, you've got to switch off and you've got to make sure you don't read any education books, I'm quite quick to say, well, depends, doesn't it?
[00:32:29] Because if I'm reading [00:32:30] something out of my own choice and I find that enjoyable and rewarding, I'm gonna do that. So I, I don't necessarily see worklife balance as a kind of, oh, it's this or it's that, and I'm either at home relaxing or I'm working. I think it's finding, finding the satisfaction in the, in the job that you do.
[00:32:45] And I think the only. Times where things become really difficult and stressful is where you feel like something's outside of your control or you're doing something where you feel that you are not [00:32:55] making a difference or you're not feeling that gratification or success. I've got a, a young family where I say young, a five or 12 and a, a 15-year-old, so.
[00:33:06] They keep me busy, um, when I'm not at school and help to give me perspective. Interestingly, two of them are at my school and going into years nine and 11, and I think some people would say, oh, that's terrible. You know, you can't ever take your [00:33:20] mum hat off and your head teach your hat off and it blurs the boundaries.
[00:33:23] But for me. It's created that balance because I don't have to feel the mum guilt. I see my children, they come and find me to ask me to put the money on their dinner cards, you know, so it's not that I feel like I'm working long hours and missing out on their childhood 'cause in a different way. We've got quite a special arrangement.
[00:33:38] We have interesting chats on the way into school and back in the car and they're moaning in my office going, come and go home. Yeah. So, [00:33:45] um, it creates a different kind. Yeah. Okay. Right. I'm done. One more email. Let's go. So I think for me it's. It's making time for that, but it's finding, whether it's through coaching, I haven't had supervision, but I, when I look back to coaching sessions, I've had, it's probably played a kind of supervisory advisory role in certain respects.
[00:34:02] I think you do need a way of processing at times. I've tried journaling, um, or I've used different coaches or [00:34:10] I've used kind of close frame and confidants. 'cause I just don't think you can, you can sponge it all up and expect to just hold everything for everybody else. There needs to be some way of.
[00:34:19] Making sense of your month, week, day, whatever, and, and doing something with that. So for me, it's been self found things as well. Like I, I joined a, a group coaching network and did some training, which, okay, that's more work in a sense, but [00:34:35] meeting with heads from different parts of the country and every month at seven o'clock on a Monday evening, you know, what have we learned this week?
[00:34:41] And it's things like that that I think help you to. Process and do that slow thinking.
[00:34:46] Julie: Yeah. I think, um, yeah, and I'd, I'd agree with you that whatever that tool is, whether it's supervision, whether it's coaching, whether it's, you know, journaling I think can be a really powerful tool that way of just kind of processing and, and [00:35:00] downloading is.
[00:35:01] Super important. Anything that you do for fun outside of that then outside of everything that you are already doing,
[00:35:08] Helena: marking no, um,
[00:35:10] Julie: marking drawn to even start.
[00:35:12] Helena: I like reading and I like going to the theater. I'm not someone that would say on my CV and I run marathons and I do rock climb, but those things just aren't me.
[00:35:20] So quite boring, really. That's okay.
[00:35:23] Julie: No, that's good. [00:35:25] That's good. Okay. So I always like to finish in, um, the same way, Helena. Um, and we ask, uh, the same question of all our guests. If you were to suggest one kind thing. That our listeners could do for themselves today, what would it be?
[00:35:42] Helena: It sounds a bit Barbie movie.
[00:35:44] Julie: It's not marking, is it?
[00:35:45] Helena: No, just that I am enough. I think as teachers we're [00:35:50] always about the even better if, and I think doing a bit more of the what went well. Go us. I think teachers need to do more of that for themselves to be kind.
[00:35:58] Julie: I absolutely agree. Recognizing, um, that good is good enough. No, that's gorgeous.
[00:36:03] That's a lovely way to end. Thank you so much, Helena, for sharing your world with us. Very much appreciated. Thank you. Lovely
[00:36:11] Helena: to talk to you. Thank you very [00:36:15] much.