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Agency Forward explores the future of agencies as tech and AI drive down the cost of tactical deliverables. Topics include building competent teams, developing strategic offers, systemizing your business, and more.
New episodes delivered every Tuesday.
Chris DuBois 0:00
Hey everyone. Today I'm joined by Corey Quinn. I have been a longtime follower of Corys. And with the publishing of his book anyone, not everyone, I knew we needed to get him on the show. Cora is an agency coach and helps founders get out of founder led sales so they can spend more time doing what they want, rather than being tied to every prospect in their business. In this episode, we discuss why agencies need to specialize in a vertical market. By building your positioning around a platform or tool is a risky bet, a strategy for breaking free of founder led sales and more. Today's episode is brought to you by Zen pilot. There are lots of tools out there for agencies to manage projects, but any project issues aren't usually caused by the tool. They're from your own processes. Zen pilot helps agencies implement their project management tools while streamlining operations. So your team can move from chaos to clarity, you can see for yourself at Zen pilot.com/forward. And now Corey coin, it's easier than ever to start an agency. But it's only getting harder to stand out and keep it alive. Join me as we explore the strategies agencies are using today to secure a better tomorrow. This is agency forward.
Why specialize your agency? The
Speaker 1 1:22
Great question, Chris. And I think that it comes out of a very practical problem that a lot of agency founders find themselves in eventually, which is they typically get into the agency space by saying yes, they build a business by saying yes. And eventually saying yes begins to work against them. And so one of the ways to get through that trap is by specializing in specifically, the type of specializing that I've spent many years of my career understanding and learning about is specializing an agency in a specific vertical market. And the benefits are amazing. And the benefits are amazing. When you when you specialize in a vertical market, you automatically know who you're targeting, which lists to buy, which conferences to go to associations to join, which keywords to rank for which articles to write which podcast to start, and on and on and on and on. Another great benefit of being a specialist as an agency is that effectively, you get to charge more because by specializing you become the best in the world at solving a very specific problem for a specific audience. And who wouldn't want to charge more for their services? So there's a lot of benefits there.
Chris DuBois 2:35
Yeah, that was actually one of the parts I liked. And in reading your book, the habit, generalists are generally viewed as being cheaper. Right, and a lower cost. And it makes complete sense, but I just never thought about it that way. Like that people are actually gonna be like, oh, like, I know, I don't have to spend a lot on you. Because you say you do everything. Right.
Speaker 1 2:57
Exactly. Yeah. So just just just to build on that, you know, I mean, look at the sort of the medical model where you have a general practitioner, you know, typically, they're not going to make the same amount of money as the neurosurgeon who is a, you know, a specialist, a highly sought after specialist. And a part of that is, I think, a positioning problem, which is that agencies who say they do everything, it's really hard to differentiate from their competitors who also do everything. I mean, in many cases, when it comes to agencies, you're selling to buyers who are not technical buyers, they don't have the understanding of the experience to under to tease out the nuances between one generalist agency and another. And so as a result of that they struggle from an ability to tell tell the market or teach the market, what makes them truly unique, they end up competing on price and losing deals to lesser firms.
Chris DuBois 3:55
So I guess, what's the process that you would take someone through in order to get them, you know, more, I guess, individualized within the market? So they're differentiated from? sure everybody else? Absolutely.
Speaker 1 4:07
So it's a three step formula. I break it into actually five steps in the book. But for our purposes, Today, I'll talk about the three steps, the first step is really focusing in on a vertical market. And one of the one of the ways that agency founders will stumble in this area of focus is that they may do what many others do, which is pull out a big spreadsheet of all the different vertical markets or niches that you can go into and say, Well, you know, what's the biggest one with the most spend, like, I want to go into that direction. And I think there's logic and there's, you know, there's value in doing that, but there's one ingredient that's really important today, more than ever, which is really lacking an empathy for the buyer or the industry. And the reason why that's important today, Chris is my experience and I have a 17 years experience in the agency space. And what I've seen In through my own experiences growing an agency from 20 million to 150 million, as well as interviewing dozens of successful agency founders is that they're missing that most agency founders are missing empathy. And those who are successful really have found that they need to care about the industry about the people that are serving in order to not only differentiate, but also to endure the ups and downs that every market goes through. And that which ultimately leads them to a greater success.
Chris DuBois 5:34
Yeah, I think Alex or Mozi, has a quote that says, like, solve rich people problems, because obviously, the rich people are gonna pay more, but I've always said like, what if you don't like those rich people? Right? That's right. Yeah. And then yeah, there's no desire to actually go deeper and working with them building that relationship, that's gonna lead to other opportunities, and, and everything else.
Speaker 1 5:55
And I'll just build on that. Like, one of the questions I asked my clients is, you end this process of specializing and finding a focus, let's say, a year or three years down the road, you filled your business with, let's say, med spa owners, or attorneys or metal manufacturing companies, whatever that focus is, how do you feel waking up every day and going to work? Like, how do you feel about really dedicating your life to solving this industry's problems? Right? Does that fire you up every morning? Or is that a drag? Right? And that's, that's really important as the founder, the rest of the company is going to drift off of your energy. So you need to be fired up every day. Right?
Chris DuBois 6:36
When at that point, like, if you have filled your client base with a certain industry, it's really hard to shift to something else, right? Entirely. It's like you almost have to move like adjacent industries, slowly until you find that pond that you actually want to be fishing in. Yeah,
Speaker 1 6:52
absolutely. And it is a process to get really to build your business around a vertical market. And so it's kind of like, I think what my mom once told me, which is that you want to, if you're going to climb the ladder of success, you want to make sure it's against the right building. No. Yeah,
Chris DuBois 7:08
good point. I like to actually in the, in the book when figuring out like the target market, and everything you had, like the decrescendos, from like generalist to specialist for figuring out who you want to target, but then also doing the same thing with what you want to do. And then kind of blending those together. That's right, great. For everyone, just go grab a copy of the book, for Kindle purchase one, so that you can actually like look at the graphics that are inside it very helpful for understanding the ideas. And an entertaining read at the same time while learning stuff. So like extra pitch in there. But I love how do you as far as like figuring out the crescendo, like what, like I'm sure, sitting down with an agency, right? They might think, Hey, this is specialized enough, I guess for what I'm doing or who I'm targeting. But usually there's like another step that they can go check out to go deeper is Are there exercises or things you recommend?
Speaker 1 8:06
Yeah, so really, I mean, this is a important strategic decision for any agency founder. So really going through a couple of steps, and being intentional about getting this decision, right is is really worthwhile. It's worth the time you spend doing that. And so I'd say that there's two types of ways to look at this one is a qualitative way, which we've partially talked about this already, which is do you want to go to work every day? If you have only attorneys as clients? You also want to look at things like, Well, what is our client success team? Like, who do they like working with? Because they're the ones that actually ultimately retain the clients there, they're going to know who you know, who are getting the best results with. You want to also ask your sales team, in some cases, agency founders may have a sales team, like who do we like selling to? So you have you want to take a qualitative pass at this, you also want to look at, you know, if we're going to make this decision, where do we already have a competitive advantage? Where do we have maybe a brand name or a positioning in the market where people in this industry already know like, and trust us? Right, we'll use that to our advantage. Right. But then there's also the quantitative aspect of making this decision. So I remember taking one of my agency clients through this. And they had already been working with the a lot of the professional teams like the Chicago Bulls and whatnot. And they were trying to make a decision. Was it going to be professional sports teams and sports arenas? Or was it going to be something else? And part of the analysis was looking at, well, what's the total addressable market for sports teams? In other words, if we're going to completely position our agency and along the lines of hey, we're a performance marketing agency for sports teams and arenas, if they were successful in penetrating that market and really being a dominant player, what is the actual revenue that they should expect to do? generate? And does that revenue number actually excite you, as a founder is in alignment with the kind of business you want to build and the freedom that you want to have and the profits and all that. And in the case of this specific client, we went through this process, we looked at, well, how many businesses there are there, and what's the revenue and did all the math, and it wasn't exciting for them, they realized that, you know, if and when we're successful here, that's not going to be enough. And so they had to make a decision, do we want to continue pursuing this road? Or is there a better a better vertical market, that when we are successful in pursuing that vertical, that we will be able to achieve through the revenue goals that we want to achieve as a founder. And what's interesting is, so they abandoned the sports arena, and the sports teams approach. And they still have those clients, but they are focusing Now, interestingly, on digital health, it's something that they are passionate about as a brand. It's a growing segment. And as a result of that, they've now they're now in the process of completely repositioning and rebranding their whole agency in this new direction.
Chris DuBois 11:03
Right. And, yeah, by having that growing segment, it's like you're, you're not capping yourself. There's only so many professional sports teams that are going to be added within the next 10 years. Right.
Speaker 1 11:16
Exactly, exactly. And so the other dimension of this is that you mentioned is when you choose, or when you're in a vertical market, that is in a declining state. You know, there's the saying like that all all boats rise with the tide, the opposite is true, when, when the industry is shrinking, the dollars are shrinking faster for marketing, right, and so it becomes much more difficult. So it's definitely one of the aspects of this process is, you know, while I may have a great, great brand name in, let's say, higher education, is this truly something that makes sense for our agency over the long run? So these are all really important questions to consider. Because once you make that decision, there's a lot of work to be done with regard to positioning and messaging and, and go to market that that fall on the on the heels of this. So yeah, getting this, this, this question, right of where do we want to focus is extremely important. Right. And
Chris DuBois 12:17
just talking about, I guess, shrinking segments is probably a good segue into talking about the status quo competitor, where I'm sure, if the market is growing, then like we have, there's more opportunity, right, there's a better chance, you're gonna be able to kind of figure this out, if it's shrinking. Now that status quo is probably getting tighter, like more people are not hiring out because money is tighter. And so the status quo for them is to figure it out in house as they're struggling to kind of make it work, when really that industry is probably failing. But are you seeing any change with like, the adoption of so much tech now, right? And in AI, and all these things with that status quo competitor, kind of being a more difficult competitor to overcome as an agency?
Speaker 1 13:09
Yeah, well, I think when it comes to AI, I believe that most companies just like they don't have a marketing department. That's why they hire an agency, they don't have an AI department. And as a result of that, they're dependent on external specialists to help them to figure out what how do we apply AI to our world, I'll give you an example. My wife is a psychiatrist. And like any other industry, it's being impacted by AI, right. And she's not in there watching YouTube videos about how to use Chechi PT for psychiatrists. She's working with a specialist who, who's a thought leader in AI in in psychiatry to learn exactly what to go and do and how to execute much more tactical. And so the reason why I bring this up is that I think that agencies today are very well positioned to become that advisor for AI and how to apply AI to a specific vertical market. Now, those agencies that are already specialized in let's say, med spas are going to already understand how a med spa business grows and all about marketing that Med Spa, so they're in a much better position to be able to apply AI to be able to be that thought leader, that trusted advisor in that domain as well. So kind of a roundabout way of saying is I think that AI specifically presents an opportunity for agencies to offer more value than they are today.
Chris DuBois 14:34
Yeah, that's a good a optimistic look. Yeah. Yeah, like, but it really does come down to like under seeing the patterns within a space to be able to know how to like deploy that AI. Right. If you're not, like, really specific on your target audience, then you're, you're not necessarily going to know how to solve all those problems. To separate from the marketing, all
Speaker 1 15:02
speak to that, kind of underline that and highlight that in the in the regard of those businesses that have specialized not in a vertical market but on a platform or a tool. Like for instance, the the classic one that I talked about is, is vine. Also vine was like Tik Tok, but like 10 years ago, right for those those who weren't around, and those agencies who became like a vine agency, Vine specialists that was all about doing short form video, the challenge that they face as well, Vine got shut down by Twitter. No more vine. So what do they do with their agency, they've already invested all this capital and time resources into building that positioning. Versus if you build your positioning around med spas, Vine may come and go tick tock may come and go these all these different tools may come and go. But the the challenges of the medspa industry, they'll always be a demand for our specialist to be able to solve the challenges regardless of the tool. And that's why I think it's a superior way to to position your agency versus on the platform. Now. I understand Christian you came from a HubSpot focus agency, one that built our positioning on on HubSpot. How do you think about this? What's your perspective on that? Yeah,
Chris DuBois 16:18
so a lot of lot of our leads and everything came from HubSpot within the partner ecosystem. In a lot of the relationships. We're doing everything. And so we solely made websites on HubSpot, and we turned down a lot of WordPress sites. However, we had the ability to do websites anywhere, our team was still knowledgeable and WordPress, all the you know, Webflow, all the other spots. But it was a it gave us the ability to kind of just narrow the tools we're learning. I think we were a little different. So we also created software called Sprocket Rocket to rapidly create websites on on HubSpot. And so people can purchase a license as well. But we'd really made it for us to be able to not have to keep like building from scratch everything. It's like no, we have this series of templates and modules that we can deploy. And so we kind of further anchored ourselves on HubSpot. But yeah, at HubSpot. I mean, I don't know if this will ever be the case. But if I'm so I just went bankrupt, right. Gone Tomorrow. Yeah, yeah, we got to completely shift everything the agency is doing. Right. Right. And so yeah, we had some like risk mitigation with like some redundancies for other platforms. But we didn't really like need to use them. And so even, we're not going to be as I say we as if I'm still working there. But like the agency wouldn't be as specialized and differentiated if it had to go into another market. Right. There's another word for US agency has been doing it now for 10 years and has nailed down their piece of the market. And if we had to go compete with him after being a HubSpot agency, we're not going to be able to win that fight as easily as we hope. Yeah.
Speaker 1 17:52
And I think the reality is, is that that's true for even even verticals or industries themselves, right? They they go through different cycles, but I remember interviewing a HubSpot premier agency and the challenge they face was that they were early in the HubSpot world. But then a lot of other agencies caught wind of this amazing positioning right HubSpot agency. And as a result of that they were not so special anymore. So they had to continue to figure out like how do we further refine our positioning to be not only a HubSpot premier partner, but also something else. And their specific case they went into manufacturing, so HubSpot for manufacturing.
Chris DuBois 18:34
I think if you actually I can check it right now HubSpot partners ecosystem. Yeah, it was last time I looked at said like it was the best 3000 agencies. Yeah, there you go. And it was just like, really? Can we can we all be the best here? Yeah, so this this link is, you know, 1049 best agencies? Yeah, that's 2024. That's like, that's a lot of agencies to sort through to look yeah.
Speaker 1 19:04
And as a buyer, like, how do you sort? How do you sort through that? Like, how do you like, where do you start? Right. So it's great. That's, yeah, that's, that's a it's a great question. Especially if you have an agency that's dependent on these type of leads to come in to grow.
Chris DuBois 19:20
Right? There was something I was talking to pika Buddha, about, where we, if someone comes to you and says, like, Hey, do you know an agency that can like can help me? It's like, you need more information, right? Like, Well, Tom, like what? What's your industry like, you want someone who can do your website, you want someone who can do your ads, and the more specific they can get on what they need, then the easier it is to like, pair up one of these agencies and send the referrals over. But usually people aren't like they're just say, Hey, can you help me and you're like, Oh, I'll go check out the HubSpot ecosystem. It's like now that agencies and competition, but so if an agency was able to come to me and say like, Hey, I specifically help people, I think there's an agency and you HubSpot that just says roofing companies. It's like so, and I don't know them personally, but someone's told me the story before, but like, even now, like, I don't know the company, but I'm thinking there's one roofing company in there, like guarantee they have specialization that no one else asked for marketing. Yeah, within that ecosystem. And so like from first of mine, I'm gonna refer you. And so yeah, absolutely. I
Speaker 1 20:21
love that. It's like the Rolodex moment. The other thing I love about it that you just reminded me of was that, as a buyer, let's say you're a roofer. You don't have to train a an agency on your business, if they're already specializing in roofers. Right, right. They don't have to learn like the agency wouldn't have to learn, like, you know, what a good job is and what the costs of the typical roofing jobs are. And all those things make make it so much more attractive from a buying perspective,
Chris DuBois 20:46
when you're when you're specialized, I think, right? Yeah, cuz even some of my previous agency we had were, we're working in tech and SAS primarily, which is fine. Like we got a general approach for, you know, how to do all this, how to learn about the clients and stuff. But even within SAS, it's not a very specific space. Like we had a payroll service company, we had a tendency verification company for renters and landlords, IT services, right? Like they're completely different spaces that you have to learn your team has to figure out each time versus, like, roofing. I know roofing. Yeah,
Speaker 1 21:23
exactly. Exactly. And you get the benefit. Also, the repeatability. You mentioned, you developed some software to help you to streamline operations to kind of help you to jumpstart the product development, the websites, but you also get those opportunities to operationalize your agency if you're, let's say, if you're doing roofing and you're doing websites, like the formula is pretty straightforward, right? You know exactly what to do the content to write and you can get a lot of efficiencies out of that to help you. Ultimately, what I love talking about, I love your perspective on this, Chris, which is helping the founder to be not not? Well, they call it being able to escape founder led sales, because sales is usually the last thing that they escape, but being able to not be dependent, because there's no variabilities in the business. It's all very process driven, therefore the founder isn't required.
Chris DuBois 22:20
Right. I think one other, I guess, perk, I think for the specialization that I just thought of, were so like, whenever, and I still do some, like website projects with with people because I've heard my name. And so they come to me and it's, it's great, I'll take your money, it's fine. But the when someone brings a like a website, I always kind of preface it with like, look, we're taking our best guess, with the marketing, right? Like, I'm gonna ask you all these questions based on what I know what I need to know what I think the market wants, but like, once that site goes live, the market could say, No, we don't like this. But if you do have that specialized knowledge, and you've just been doing this over and over, you know, the patterns for what the market actually approves of. And so now, it's not a big guess. It's like, No, we know this type of messaging works, because we've seen it work over and over.
Speaker 1 23:08
That's right, that's right, you get the benefit, the benefit of pattern matching. If you're if you're if you're serving the same client over and over and over for years, you're gonna learn a lot about this business businesses and the unit probably know a lot more about how to grow one of their businesses than the typical business in the actual category. I'll give you an example. At Scorpion, we used to target home service businesses, and we became experts in not only marketing, but like really how to grow a home service business. And one of my partners on the executive team, Jamie Adams, he said something that actually came true, which was that he said that our salespeople know so much about how to grow a home service business than say, a roofer or plumber, that they could probably be a really good general manager. And I just saw I just saw online a note on on Facebook a post by a scorpion salesperson who is focusing on Home Services, guess what he did, he left Scorpion sales and he actually became a general manager at a home service business because he knew the marketing and sales be so well that it was just an obvious thing for him to do.
Chris DuBois 24:17
Yeah, it's crazy. I know. And the there's almost like learning on the job that way by just like working with the industry and figuring things out that way. It's I would almost give more credit to that than just going to school like going back to university right and learning whatever is getting your MBA stuff like that. And so, so awesome way to be able to shift industry as well. Still getting paid in the process to to learn. Yeah,
Speaker 1 24:44
absolutely. And you get like being able to come into a business and solve hard nuanced problems. There's a tremendous amount of value for that. But that comes with time and repetition, right.
Chris DuBois 24:58
So if If we're going to break down, like an 8020, Pareto Principle style for what agencies should be focused on right now, so that future is a little easier for them, what would you recommend?
Speaker 1 25:13
Well, so I'm gonna go back to the drum that I'm always beating, which is focus on a vertical market, positioning yourself around the vertical market, and then go to market with attracting more more clients. That is, to me the far superior way to build an agency today, it's what acquires care about. So if you want to get if you want to sell your agency to someone, eventually and have a, you know, cash out maybe a little bit, they're looking for vertical specialists, companies, typically, because they have better retention, and they have better profit margins, as proven by data. It's very empirical evidence points to that. And so it's a superior way to grow an agency. I'm biased, but that is, that's, that's what I believe. And so they need to be agency founders should be working to specialize like that is a it's it creates a competitive advantage creates a moat around your your agency. And it gives you a better shot at having a sort of a durable business over the the highs and lows, so that that is what they should be doing. Besides all the the AI advice, which is I'm sure, very frequent, certainly pay attention to AI and figure out ways to leverage AI to streamline operations while adding, you know, the same as or more value. All those things are very straightforward. I think the hard thing is a specialization.
Chris DuBois 26:36
Right? So I guess, on the flip side, are you seeing specific challenges that get in the way of agencies being able to specialize?
Speaker 1 26:48
Yeah, it's simply the founder is the one that's getting in the way of specializing, typically, because I think it's us as humans, especially founders of businesses, who've been trained to say, Yes, I think the challenge is saying starting to say no to good business, people wanting to come and hire agency money. And and being able to say that say no to that business, as a founder is really difficult. Typically, they'll continue to say yes, until they've tried everything else. And what I mean by that is, they've said yes to too many people, they're losing employees. They're losing clients, because there's just too much chaos, too much variability in the business. Maybe they've hired third party lead gen companies and sales, sales leaders, maybe they've hired a sales team and fired a sales team. All of these things are typically what an agency founder will do. Before they throw up their arms, they say, All right, that's it. I've known I need to specialize. I'm ready. And that's usually when I have a conversation with them. Right?
Chris DuBois 27:52
There, there has to be some sort of way to expedite that lesson without them needing to feel the pain. Where do you think it's okay? You just got to go through the paces and learn this one for yourself.
Speaker 1 28:04
You got to go through it. I mean, the only shortcut is, and this is definitely the exception, not the rule. But the exception. The exception is a founder, an agency founder who is coming from an environment where they already understand that vertical market. So as an example, a child of a family, mother and father, who were dentists, right, they came up and grew up in a family of dentists, they understand the business and they like marketing. And so they're going to get to dental marketing. Or maybe I interviewed a gentleman who used to work in pharmaceutical sales, for Merck, and Pfizer and all these things. And so he understood that business, he worked in that business for 15 years. And so it was, it was an obvious thing for him to step out and start an agency focusing directly on the pharmaceutical industry, he had his relationship as is as experience. But most guys, I think most people, guys and gals will start by just putting out a shingle saying going on Facebook and saying, Hey, I'm sorry, an agency who needs help with lead gen or whatnot. And they they get some level of success by saying yes.
Chris DuBois 29:09
So what would you say causes founders to stay stuck in founder led sales?
Speaker 1 29:16
I believe it's a combination of three things. Number one is just not having a clear focus on who specifically they're selling to and when that happens. So number one is focus. So the challenge with focus is that when you don't have a focus when you're a generalist, typically the sale is very bespoke, right? The founder will come in and they'll put together some fancy offering because they're doing it on the fly. It's made basically impossible for a salesperson to come in and replicate that they're not the founder, right? So the focus drives a lot of repeat but repeatability and sales. Number two is having this watery, watered down positioning. We talked earlier about some of the struggles with being a generalist and that you have a hard time differentiating yourself from all the other options right? You end up competing on price losing deals to lesser firms. That's number two. And then number three is not having a very clear way to build pipeline when the founder is not out, pounding the pavement, doing the networking going out and tapping into their resources. So when you have all three lack of focus, watery positioning and a lack of a sales plan, that's founder independent, guess what happens every single time the founder could suck right in the middle of sales, and they just, they just cannot break free. And so the typically what the founder will do is, they'll try to do some different type of lead gen campaign or marketing campaign go to a conference and all these things. And the challenge is that it's kind of like the tip of the iceberg. That's what you're seeing all these other agencies doing, they're doing webinars are doing all these different tactics, where underneath the surface of the water, where the majority of the value is created from, from a go to market perspective, for an agency, that work is not the digital marketing. And without the all of the acquisition stuff, it is the the focus and the positioning, when you get those two things, right. The last step, which is going out and acquiring more prospects, through marketing and sales, that actually becomes the easiest thing
Chris DuBois 31:18
to do. So you would recommend like don't bother bringing on a sales team, until you have those three pieces identified, like work through so that you can actually hand things off work
Speaker 1 31:28
through it. Right, exactly. Because the challenge becomes, if you don't have the razor sharp positioning and the focus on a specific vertical, where you have that client intimacy, you're able to demonstrate that you're an insider, when you're missing all of that, the marketing becomes very limp and lame and not not effective. And so yeah, I believe in based on my experience, and what I've seen others do really well is you start with a positioning
Chris DuBois 31:57
makes sense. Of course, this has been a great conversation, I want to hit you with two final questions, with the first being go besides your own book, because we're going to do another shout out for that second, what book do you recommend every agency leader should read?
Speaker 1 32:13
One of the book, it's a great question in whenever I'm asked this, I immediately think of Jhansi Maxwell's book 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership. And I love it because I actually have a fond memory back when I was at Scorpion, we had a nine person executive team, we all read the book together. And we would, the book is basically made up of these Irrefutable Laws. And we would name the laws when we were violating one of these leadership laws. After we read the book, we would name it, it's like, oh, this is the law of the lid. And, and so it became a really good way for us to see our blind spots and really grow as an organization just by applying the 21 Irrefutable Laws in this area. So I highly recommend it's an awesome
Chris DuBois 32:58
approach to with like, essentially, don't buckle up style, but then pointing it out. So like, if you want to ingrain that, yeah, in the entire team. Like, that's gonna happen much faster.
Speaker 1 33:09
Yeah, we had to call each other out to it's like, ah, you know, Hey, Chris, you know, you're violating the third law.
Chris DuBois 33:15
Right? Talk about this. Yeah, that's awesome. And then last question, Where can people hear more?
Speaker 1 33:21
Thank you so much. So my book, as you mentioned, is anyone not everyone and for your listeners, you can go right now to the my website, anyone not everyone.com and get access to the audio book for free. You listen to the entire audio book, don't have to pay any money. You just have to go to the site. And you can start learning and applying the five steps that I teach in the book to escaping founder led sales by going from a generalist to a vertical specialist
Chris DuBois 33:47
today. Awesome. Great. Thanks for joining us. It's been an awesome conversation.
Unknown Speaker 33:51
Absolutely. Great. Thanks for having me.
Chris DuBois 33:58
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai