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This show is made for B2B marketers who are tired of the same old advice. Ugi Djuric, CEO of ContentMonk and B2B Vault, sits down with some of the best minds in B2B to talk about what’s really working, what’s broken, and what nobody tells you about growing a company. This is the show where people share their deepest insights and secret knowledge they wouldn't otherwise share on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1: 00:00
When you say it and you put it on your page, then if I'm an accountant at a $10 million company, I'm like, yes. Positioning starts with, like, strategy. And like, what kind of category are we in? Who are we competing against? The people who can tell their story in the most clear and compelling way are gonna get the win. Build a messaging blueprint so that every time you make a video, every time you do a social post, every time you write a blog, all the stuff you're grounding yourself in, the same story over and over again, all that AI commoditization of actual software is gonna do is just to make the words even more important. If a coffee shop had a SaaS website or something and you're trying to buy like a mocha something, the primer would be espresso, milk and chocolate. If you can copy the image from your website and paste it on your competitors and it, like, would still kind of make sense, that's like a big problem. The pages a lot of people talk about, sometimes they're like, really beautiful and awesome, but they don't convert. If it's designed well, I trust it more.
Speaker 2: 01:16
Hey, guys.
Speaker 3: 01:16
Welcome to another episode of the B2B Show. I'm your host, Oogie, founder of Content Monk, and today you're going to listen to Logan Hendrickson, one of the biggest messaging and product marketing experts that I know. We had such a fun recording this episode and we talked about many different things, among which ones are why is messaging so important? How to create messaging for B2B software companies, why features are no longer differentiators in B2B SaaS, how to create winning landing pages that convert, and many, many.
Speaker 2: 01:56
Other topics that we covered.
Speaker 3: 01:59
So sit tight and enjoy this is.
Speaker 2: 02:02
Episode with a lot of unique and.
Speaker 3: 02:04
Actionable insights on your messaging, copywriting, positioning, and landing pages.
Speaker 2: 02:09
See you there. Right now, because of AI, you know, technology, you know everything. Like every company out there, basically every product out there is, can be, you know, a commodity.
Speaker 3: 02:22
Let's.
Speaker 2: 02:23
Let's call it like that, right? You know, you have a lot of products out there emerging, launching in existing categories that all of them are doing similar job. Features are not the unique selling proposition anymore. So looking at that from the positioning, messaging, copy, website standpoint, how do you make these products stand out? What's your hot take on that?
Speaker 1: 02:55
I think it's kind of always been true that you need to differentiate on your messaging, like, and now it's just becoming even more and more true. Like, yes, there's a competitive landscape for every product category out there and if the only, the only differences were truly features, then they'd all split market share evenly, I feel, you know, like it would just be a random draw of the hat and you're like, okay, they're all the same. Let's just like pick one. And so I think the brands that win are the ones that have like a strong voice, you know, you with content. They're the ones that like people know about that. The ones that have mind share. And when it comes to messaging and like stuff on the website, I feel like it's just being the one. The people who can tell their story in the most clear and compelling way are gonna get the win, you know. Um, and so I think all, all that this AI commoditization of actual software is going to do is just to make the words even more important that you use to talk about your. Your stuff.
Speaker 2: 04:05
Yeah, but, but we, but we also have another paradox over there and that is that, that, that AI made it easy for all the other companies, you know, to get in the content game, to start writing, to start publishing, to, you know, to start, to start shar their voice right now, unfortunately, from what I could see, it's all crap and it's just recycling the same information and insights that you can find all over the web. But how do you said that the brands that have the best clarity and that spread that messaging in the easiest way, how does that clarity look like for you?
Speaker 1: 04:49
So in my world of like product messaging and I'm working a lot on like product pages, that looks like very clear, straightforward, not fluffy language. Like this is literally what our product does and this is who it does it for. And it's like, it's just a lot more straightforward. I feel like it's less value, sort of like outcome, sort of like, you know, fluff. I don't know how else to say it, but the, the pages that seem to work really well. I mean, I have, I. There's like some components that really matter, like the things in the hero that really matter. Being able to articulate the problem that the people have more clearly than other competitors. Like if, if we're just talking features and we just list out the features, like we can all do that, but who's going to be able to talk to the actual pain I have or like the problems that I have the best? Those are the people I'm like, okay, they probably get it. Like they can help me more than just the product can help me, but they actually understand me. And so I think empathy and messaging with like, the customers, like, voice, like, those are the things that AI can't just automatically replicate. Those are the things that are like, oh, it's very clear that you know exactly. Accountants who work at $10 million companies, you know exactly the problems that they have. And so when you say it and you put it on your page, then if I'm an accountant at a $10 million company, I'm like, yes, I get it. You get it. I get what you do.
Speaker 2: 06:35
So I'm not the messaging expert here, but I would say that it's not just enough to have a good positioning and good messaging on your website. How do you communicate that with the world? And how do you connect that kind of positioning and messaging with every other marketing, sales or the product activity that, that you do to make that message, you know, even more stronger, even more compelling, to have more reach? You get what I'm trying to say?
Speaker 1: 07:09
Totally. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of just like.
Speaker 3: 07:12
Hey guys, just a real quick. Sorry for interrupting the episode. Did you ever feel overwhelmed with the amount of low quality and crappy content that you find on Google and LinkedIn? Well, B2B Walled, the producers of this episode, solve that problem. B2B Vault is a database of hundreds and hundreds of expert level insights and articles written by 300 B2B marketing experts. And B2B Vault monitors hundreds of websites every single week to uncover new trends and new articles. So you are the first to learn the new trends, insights and playbooks from the best B2B marketing minds. And every Monday morning, we send out a newsletter with a few most important reads every B2B marketeer should read at the start of their week to make sure that you hit your quota and get more deals in the pipeline. So just very quickly, if you're interested in this, go to the B2B vwault.com newsletter and join thousands of other B2B marketeers in our Monday newsletter. See you there.
Speaker 1: 08:21
The pro that's, that's just marketing. I think that's just like all of marketing. So it's not an easy problem to, to fix. And it's like what every business needs to do to exist. And so I think me, I think positioning starts with like strategy and like, what kind of category are we in? Who are we competing against? Who do we want to sell to? What are the things that they care about? Like, all that stuff is strategic, that needs to be in place. And then the messaging part needs to also be just like rock solid where, you know, this is exactly the story we're trying to tell, and you don't want it being too varied. Like, these are the. The main points of the plot that we are definitely trying to tell over and over again. And so if you are, like, in the companies that I've worked in or that, like, clients I've had, like, the, the places where you can retell the story and maybe it's not the exact same words every time, but, like, I could talk to five different people and they can kind of tell, like, the main story of the business and why they exist and who they serve and all that stuff. Like, those are the ones that all the content is, like, working because they are. They're building content from a foundation of messaging that is really solid. And when I work with clients, I call it a blueprint because we're like, we need to build a messaging blueprint so that every time you make a video, every time you do a social post, every time you write a blog, all the stuff, like, you're. You're grounding yourself in the same story over and over again. And like, that is. That's how positioning and copy and missing all kind of interplay. And I think, yeah, AI can kind of like smile, spit out a bunch of stuff, but if it's not really, like, consistently telling a good, compelling, emotional story over and over again, then it's just like you said, it's just. You're going to read it, it's going to be, like, overwhelming, and it's not going to really capture you. Not even getting to the point of, like, specific ways of telling that story, like in video or whatever.
Speaker 2: 10:28
Yeah.
Speaker 1: 10:28
How.
Speaker 2: 10:29
How does that blueprint look? Like?
Speaker 1: 10:31
I can, I can pull it up if you want to look at it.
Speaker 2: 10:34
Yep, that's really great.
Speaker 1: 10:35
Okay. This is a blueprint. It's probably not that different from a lot of other positioning and, like, messaging blueprints out there. But the way that I like to do this is I. For every product. So if you're in, like, a company that has a platform, like, for every product, we're going to build one of these. Or if you're a service company, for every, like, offering you have, we're going to build one of these. This ICP background kind of bucket is typically not going to change that much unless you do sell different products, a different sort of Personas. But the idea is just to do, like, a lightweight version of what you would do on a very deep level. If you're kind of like thinking about starting a company or repositioning a company, it's like you really just think about, okay, who do we, who are our target companies and who are the people in those companies? What's the category that they shop for? And then what's the main job that they have? And I do like a very light weight version of jobs to be done. And so the focus, just like CEOs at these types of companies, like, what are, what's actually on their job description? What are the things that they are measured against? Because ideally your product should be doing those jobs in a way. And then you just like, you kind of start broad and you get more specific and more specific and more specific the farther down you go. And so then you're like, okay, what's the problem that we are solving for this person? Why does that problem a bad problem to have? Okay, once you nail that, then what other ways can people solve that problem? Not just direct competitors, like, how, how could anyone who's this person solve this problem? And then you're like, how are we different? How are we better? I like to get into what is each feature we have and kind of like, what does that unlock for people? And then at the end of the day, cool, let's sum all this up and say, how do we actually want to say who we are, what we talk about, or how we talk about what we do? And this is where you get different. You know, it's like I, I still think there is differentiation even if you have all the same features. Like eventually you're going to be able to say, like, we take a different angle, you know, like we approach it a different way. And so then you get into some of the details of your message messaging. So this is like in an ideal world, you kind of lock this in and you're like, this is not changing for a quarter. And so we can just hit the content hard. We can make sure the website reflects this. I think the website should be your best asset. So you want to make sure, like that is very clearly expressing this, but this is the story and like the foundations of the story you want to tell. And then when you get into the copywriting stage is when you can kind of figure out how exactly you want that story to tell it.
Speaker 2: 13:30
That's amazing. Let's talk about the categories for a moment. Right. So I would say that a lot of companies right now, both like service companies and software companies, that they have this problem. I know that we do, right? So the market, everything is changing super fast. And you know, some things that we used to do like one year ago, they just don't make sense anymore. Right. So I would say that you're like entering that era of, you know, where we are changing the definitions of certain categories. So my question now is for the companies that want to stand out, is there, what will you say is the best, you know, course of action? Like, is it to emerge from the existing category and with their, know, point of views, angles, messaging, positioning, whatever, kind of try to create a new category, you know, so they can be, you know, the category of one or however it's called, or to, you know, continue the, continue the path they use to walk right now to add you a bit more context if it, if it makes sense. We, right now we do not want to be considered a content marketing agency anymore because I don't think it makes sense. And, you know, it's not the same. We are not doing the same things as we used to do, you know, five years ago, 10 years ago. Right now you have much more things to do to incorporate content into sales, you know, to, to create more out of the box forms of content, video, to turn companies into media brands, help them stand out, you know, all that kind of stuff. So for me, it doesn't look like a content agency anymore. It looks more like something like content LED GTM agency or whatever it is. So what are your thoughts on this?
Speaker 1: 15:30
I mean, it's a, it's a complicated conversation. I think if I was giving broad advice, if you're a startup, you should be, you should find the category that the, that your audience is gonna put you in and just try to own that first. Because I feel like a lot of people are like, we want to be unique and different. We want to stand out. But if you need customers like people like, basically you need, it all comes down to really understanding your customers. And are they still seeking out content marketing agencies? Is that what they're searching for? It's not really an SEO play, but it's like, you think about it through the lens of SEO. It's almost like, what do people think they want? What are people asking for referrals for? And like, you know, what are people referring to you as if you get referrals. I often like to think like, when, when people come to me and they're like, oh, yeah, so and so said I should talk to you. I'm like, what did they say I did? Like, what, what, what am I to them? Because if I'm a marketing consultant, then 10, 10 out of 20 times, I'm like, okay, maybe I should just like lean into being a marketing consultant. Even though to me I do it a little bit differently. I have a very narrow thing. So like that's the broad advice I would say. But I, I think if you're like, you have an established sort of brand, I think you have more leeway to sort of try to create a new category or at least like a sliver of a category where you're still like we're content marketing, but we do, but we're like XYZ kind of content marketing or like, like the new. It's sort of like the V2, like where, where what content marketing is becoming kind of thing. But I think you need brand like you even need a lot of money. You know, that's what a lot of people say with category creation. You gotta like spend a ton of money on ads and stuff in PR and all this stuff. Or you just need a really strong brand to be able already in customers to, to be able to like validate your, your move.
Speaker 2: 17:40
I remember seeing once that you're also the advocate that even the service companies should have the product pages. How from your experience how the most the best performing product pages for services look like, like how do you create a product page of something that's not productized in terms of this is the same service over and over again that you're going to do, right? So concretely for the services that are not exactly 100% the same from client.
Speaker 1: 18:16
To client, I think if you're not actually productized, I still think that you can have essentially a menu. Like that's the goal is if I go to your website, the homepage to me is am I where I think I am? Is this, you know, it's all the category stuff. It's like, is this for me, is this the kind of category I think it is? Somebody told me about this website, I land there. I'm like, oh yeah, I'm here. This is where I am usually if I'm actually shopping. The first place you go is that like first dropdown, that's like solutions or products or overview or whatever to see what's actually on the menu. Like what are the things I can buy? And I think that's also why pricing gets a ton of traffic if you have a pricing page. Because yes, they care about pricing, but they're mostly like what can they actually get from you? And I feel like a lot of service orgs don't have that. It's kind of like every page sort of tells the same story of like this is what we do for clients and blah, blah, blah. And how awesome we are. And so that's my. That's why I advocate, like, have a page that is at least like, you can have. Like, this is our offering. And if it's not exactly the same every time, like, spell out at least what generally the process is. Like, first we do this, then we do this. These are some examples. And basically try to think of your company like a SaaS company in some ways where you're like, this is the company we have. These are the products we sell. These are the features of those products. And so if you can have a page that is sort of like, these are the distinct. If it's not an actual offer that you sell specifically, but at least like, these are the types of companies we have. Like, alternatively, if you're like industry pages, Persona pages, stuff like that, where it's like people can just get a. People who are actually interested can walk down the aisle and really, like, read the back of the box or whatever.
Speaker 2: 20:17
You know, and tell me from your experience, what would you say? What are the most winning, let's say, frameworks or, you know, formats of the most converting product and homepages.
Speaker 1: 20:32
I've got another, like, asset. I've got a checklist that I think is. Has some good stuff. But basically some of the main things are in the hero section. Clarity over every, like, boring and confusing over clever and. Or boring and clear over clever and confusing. I think for the hero is really important. And like, Eddie Schlanger has a thing he calls primers. I don't know if other people call it a primer or not, but it's basically like, what exactly is this thing that I'm getting and trying to put that right, right above the headline, I think is really important. So like, if it is content marketing, if it is video editing, if it's some, you know, if it's like you want to position yourself as some big thing, but really you want to also have like, this is exactly what you get. The example I have is like, if you go to a coffee shop, if, like, if a coffee shop had a SaaS website or something and you're trying to buy like a mocha something, the primer would be like espresso milk and chocolate or something. You know, it's like, yeah, literally what you get. And then I really think images matter a lot. You know, when you see pro on product pages, the ones that convert the best and in heroes and headlines. Like, basically, if you can copy the image from your website and paste it on your competitors and it, like, would still Kind of make sense. That's like a big problem. And I see that a lot where I'm like, I could probably erase the logos on all this and then plop this somewhere else and like, this would look fine. So I think you need it to be very. It's harder with service orgs, but I think you need to be very unique. And like, clearly you and all the images really matter. And I've been thinking about this lately that like, sometimes I see design sort of distracting from the, from good copy. And so I think the pages that end up being, being really like the. The pages a lot of people talk about, sometimes they're like really beautiful and awesome, but they don't convert. And I'm like, pe. That's because they are scrolling on it because they want to see what it looks like. But the pages that convert are pretty simple. And they've just like, there's a hero. There's a problem section that's like, this is. Are you facing these problems? In basically every scroll there's like a question like, okay, am I. Am I curious enough to keep going? And do I feel like I'm still in the right, like, aisle of the store? So like, okay, I'm interested. Let's scroll down, let's scroll down, let's scroll down so we can get really deep on all that stuff. But I feel like there's a hero section, a problem section. You obviously got to talk about features. When you talk about like, features of your thing, I think leading with either the thing your customers like the most or even if it's not the thing you like the most, it's like the thing your customers talk about the most or talking about the thing that like, is the most different about you helps and, and then as much as you can actually showing if it's a product, showing your product, if it's a service, showing the like, timeline of what you do, showing like an example of how of like an asset they get or an example of like the outcome they, they receive. Like, basically going back to the commoditized conversation. It's like everyone can find everything anywhere. So if your website's not actually showing your real stuff, then you're just like, you're. You're missing out.
Speaker 2: 24:07
Tell me what, what, what, what? What's your experience with interactive demos on the home pages, on the product pages?
Speaker 1: 24:14
Sorry, I have a lot of experience with them. I think that they can work. I don't think they're great, like, in kind of like the hero of the product page because you Kind of have to earn some trust before you start messing with them. But I've seen a lot of success with like four to five step demos. Kind of one or two scrolls down where it's very much like, check, check this thing out. And you click, click, click, click. You're not trying to do your whole sales pitch in a sales. In like a interactive demo. I've seen that happen where you start and then it's like, so first we do onboarding and then. And it's like so long. And it's so trying to like value message. Sell me. I like, start with your very flashy, cool features, do those right away and just make it four or five steps. And those usually do pretty well.
Speaker 2: 25:14
I would say, like right now we, you know, people, consumers, like, we demand everything, like right now and from like, what I could say is that it's all about just reducing that, you know, kind of a friction, reducing that time to value. And what I personally, like, advocate other people is like, try to, you know, move that kind of aha product, aha moment from the product to the, you know, to the website, you know, as quickly as possible to your socials, you know, because that's, you know, that, that's something like that which, you know, attracts new customers and converts. Right. So, so yeah, and tell me, what about, what about the, about the fold sections of the website? Like, how do you, how do we optimize them? What are the things like that should be visible there? Should I clutter down with, I don't know, like testimonials, logos, ratings, you know, badges, like whatever it is, or to keep like the above, above the fold section, like super simple. Like, this is the headline, sub headline, call to action. And that's it.
Speaker 1: 26:29
I think I like having social proof kind of like peeking out from right on the fold, basically, so you can tell it's there. It gets you to scroll to see. And that first level of social proof should be mostly like your most impressive stuff. Like just that that level is kind of like, okay, cool. They work with real companies, you know, like, they've got some logos, then you want to get some deeper, like quotes that are like bolded and highlighted that kind of pop a little lower. But yeah, I think straightforward, simple is better. Like almost all the time. Like most of the pages I work on, it's like we're, we're cutting stuff rather than adding stuff because attention spans are down. You know, like time on site is so low and like where you're fighting for like seconds of time, not minutes, and so it's kind of crazy to try to jam too much stuff. So you really want to just like, make it very clear, make it really fast for me to skim. Okay. I see the headline, I see the image. I kind of get it and make it make me want to kind of do that first scroll instead of put so much stuff. I get, I get the appeal. People are like, nobody's going to scroll. We want to like, put it all up there. But if it's good enough, they'll at least do one scroll. Is my, is my kind of thought.
Speaker 2: 27:53
Yeah. Yeah. And tell me, what about trust on the website? So, like, I'm assuming that soon, you know, in a couple of months or a year or two years, like, we would rarely get any, you know, visitors on the websites who don't. Who know nothing about the company. Right? Yeah, I guess that's, you know, a little trend that's going to emerge in like a year or two years, but we are not there yet. Right. So what about trust? How do you make that, you know, website more trustworthy if I already don't know who you are? Because, like, testimonials, like, they, they can be faked.
Speaker 1: 28:36
I do think that we're closer to that than already. Like, you know, you see the studies by big companies out there. Like 70% of a buying decision happens before they ever get a demo. That doesn't mean that they're not on the site. But I think what I was talking about before, like, I think that's why already homepages are kind of less and less important because really you land on the homepage to see, okay, yes, I'm here. Like, I'm familiar with these guys. I'm probably coming from somewhere else where I'm familiar with them. So that's why I think product pages are actually more important, because they're looking for deeper dives on, like, they're kind of looking for a sales pitch and a product demo all before they actually have to get a sales pitch and a product demo. They want that on the website. One thing that I think just as a user, like, consumer of stuff like, is high trust is going back to design. Like, if it's designed well, I trust it more, you know, and like, that is an interesting psychological thing for me. But I agree, like, the testimonials important, but table stakes, like, they, they are important, but it's kind of like, okay, at least you have some customers. Like, you're, you're legit. And then I really think it's like, if you don't have anything else. It's understanding, it's, it's figuring out how to communicate. I understand you visitor on the page. Like, I know what you're looking for. I know the problems you have. Like the pages that if I've never heard of a company and I go there and they. There's like a line that really actually resonates with like what I struggle with at work, then I'm like, I trust you a little bit. Like, you've clearly done some research, you know your audience. So I'm, I'm, I'm at least going to read, read this.
Speaker 2: 30:36
You know, tell me what is the work that you've done with other. For other, you know, B2B software companies that you're most proud of in terms of, you know, how it looks like, the results they bring. Like, what are those pages?
Speaker 1: 30:52
I mean, the most, the, the best stuff is always if they just like conversion rate rates go up. So like when conversion rates go up, that's great. I had a client just recently share their website with pretty much all their customer base and just ask for feedback on the messaging, which is pretty cool to do. Like, I don't know, people don't do that that much after we've worked on it.
Speaker 2: 31:18
It's like a do it yourself winter.
Speaker 1: 31:21
Exactly. Yeah. But with your actual customers. So it's like a little bit, I don't know you. They already like you, hopefully. And so you gotta take it with a grain of salt. But that's also very gratifying. I saw that a lot of them were just like, yeah, this makes sense. Back to your aha. Moment. They were like, once we got started, this is a company that does has software and services. Once we got started, I, I never even realized how much support we got or like, I never realized how many hours we were going to get with these people. And like, we brought that into the website a lot more and so they were able to validate. Like, yeah, this makes sense. Like, this is one of the best parts of working with you. And we kind of didn't even know that before we got started. So some of that feedback is, I'm proud of, you know, it's like, it's good to, it's nice to see. And really like, at the end of the day, if people can read the site and be like, cool, I get it, like, I understand what you're doing. And usually that means they click a button to get a demo or something, then that means I did my job. So that's, that's Always good.
Speaker 2: 32:32
The last question that I have for you is what is the one book or a resource that you would recommend to someone to get better at B2B marketing?
Speaker 1: 32:42
This is probably the book that like a million people say, but the very good copy by Eddie Schlayner is like such a great. It's. I think like I said, words are going to become more and more important. AI is helpful in shaping words and helping with writing and stuff, but it's not, it's. It's just going to mean that human beings to stand out, need to be much more creative and like become good writers. And he writes in a way that is very human, you know, and so he, he's awesome. And that book, I think no matter what you do in marketing will help you in terms of how to think, how to communicate, how to write in a more human way, which I think is going to be more and more important as. As time goes on.
Speaker 2: 33:33
Love it. Love it. Logan, we had a really big blast. Thank you very much for coming to the show.
Speaker 1: 33:39
Yeah, thanks for having me. This is awesome.
Speaker 2: 33:41
Okay guys, thank you.
Speaker 3: 33:42
That's a wrap. What an amazing episode that was. Before you go, just let me ask.
Speaker 2: 33:48
You a very quick question.
Speaker 3: 33:49
Do you know that your B2B company might be in a great danger of AI commoditization? And if your company out there is not standing out, if you're not fighting for the attention which is the most important currency right now, then you are slowly becoming a commodity. And when you're a commodity, no one is going to buy from you organically on their own. So Content Monk, the agency that I run is a full funnel content marketing agency that works with fast growing B2B software companies and helps them become category leaders, the main winners in the field with original content that stands out. So reports lead magnets, articles, AI content optimization for LLMs, massive content distribution and the another thing that you're doing is we are monitoring different intent social signals across social networks to see what people are engaging with your content all the time and who online is a sales ready lead for you. But they just didn't subscribe yet. So that's how we help fast growing B2B software companies grow. We offer a free consultation for for everyone. So don't hesitate to go to ContentMonk io and book a free strategy session.
Speaker 2: 35:09
With us where you will get a.
Speaker 3: 35:11
Free strategy and a battle plan without hard strings attached. See you there and see you in the next episode as well. Have the great rest of the day.