Defining Hospitality

How do you scale hospitality without losing quality, trust, or operational control? 

In this episode, Dan Ryan sits down with Ashley Ching, Founder & CEO of Inhaven, for a deep dive into the hidden limits of scale in hospitality and vacation rentals. They explore why service-based businesses often face diseconomies of scale, what leaders can learn from the rapid rise and fall of business, and how complexity, not competition, is often the true threat to growth. Ashley also shares how Inhaven is redefining standardization, elevating local expertise, and rebuilding trust in vacation rentals through consistent bed, bath, and kitchen experiences.

Takeaways:
  • Know when scale becomes a liability. Not every business benefits from getting bigger, evaluate whether growth will increase cost and complexity instead of efficiency.
  • Reduce complexity early and often. Streamlined markets, clear standards, and simple operations make it easier to maintain quality and respond to change.
  • Invest in strong local operations. Empower teams with on-the-ground knowledge to solve problems quickly and uphold service standards.
  • Standardize what matters most. Consistent bed, bath, and kitchen experiences, or their equivalents in your industry, build trust and reduce operational waste.
  • Grow with discipline, not impulse. Resist “growth for growth’s sake” and prioritize sustainable expansion rooted in quality, clarity, and long-term value.

Quote of the Show:
“Hospitality is really an expression of honor. It's how you honor yourself, your team, your guests, and your ancestors.” - Ashley Ching

Links:

Shout Outs:

🏨✨ Defining Hospitality is Sponsored by Berman Falk https://www.bermanfalk.com/ - Check out their impact page! 🌍🌱 https://www.bermanfalk.com/impact/ 

Ways to Tune In: 

Creators and Guests

Host
Dan Ryan
Host of Defining Hospitality
Producer
Gabby Aloisi

What is Defining Hospitality?

Welcome to Defining Hospitality, the podcast focused on highlighting the most influential figures in the hospitality industry. In each episode we provide 1 on 1, in depth interviews with experts in the industry to learn what hospitality means to them. We feature expert advice on working in the industry, behind the scenes looks at some of your favorite brands, and in depth explorations of unique hospitality projects.

Defining Hospitality is hosted by Founder and CEO of Agency 967, Dan Ryan. With over 30 years of experience in hospitality, Dan brings his expertise and passion to each episode as he delves into the latest trends and challenges facing the industry.

Episodes are released every week on Wednesday mornings.

To listen to episodes, visit https://www.defininghospitality.live/ or subscribe to Defining Hospitality wherever you get your podcasts.

DH - Ashley Ching
===

Ashley Ching: [00:00:00] standards in the vacation rental industry

is different than hotels. First of all, you

can wake up in a Hyatt in

Tokyo or

Cincinnati and not know

where you

are,

right? It's very cookie cutter. Guests choose vacation rentals because they wanna feel like a local, right? They wanna go to a beach house and feel like they're on the beach or a mountain home and feel like they're in the mountains, but they

don't

want uniqueness when it comes to sleeping, bathing, and eating.

They don't want a round bed or

a watered,

they want comfortable

beds. And

so I think.

multigenerational travelers,

the.

Intro: What I do is inconsequential. Why I do what I do is I get to shorten people's journeys every day. What I love about our hospitality industry is that it's our mission to make people feel cared for while on their journeys. Together we'll explore what hospitality means in the built environment, in business, and in our daily lives.

I'm Dan Ryan, and this is Defining Hospitality.

Sponsor: This [00:01:00] podcast is sponsored by Berman Fall Hospitality Group, a design-driven furniture manufacturer who specializes in custom case goods and seating for hotel guest rooms.

Dan Ryan: Today's guest is an entrepreneur, founder, speaker, strategy expert, and merchandising executive. She has over 13 years of merchandising and e-commerce experience at major brands like Tiffany and Co and the company store. She brings a deep expertise in guest experience with a special focus on the vacation rental industry.

She's been a featured speaker at leading industry events, including the Vacation Rental Women's Summit and the Vacation Rental Management Association Executive Summit. She's the founder and CEO of inh. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome Ashley Ching. Welcome, Ashley.

Ashley Ching: Hi, Dan. Glad to be here.

Dan Ryan: I'm so glad to have you here, and I just want our listeners to know how we came to be at this moment, so.

A few weeks ago, I interviewed Sebastian from Spain, who's in [00:02:00] the vacation rental space. And I haven't really paid attention to that space so much because it's, um, I would say hospitality. It is hospitality, but it's not like it's hospitality adjacent as far as hotels go. Right. And what really struck me was how he.

Is kind of confined geographically because he wants to deliver the best service that he can. Right? And so I think they have 400 and something units in and around Barcelona, Spain, and that's what they do. And if they grow, they're gonna grow. They need to build a whole new beachhead somewhere else and then get to a certain level of scale.

So that got me thinking about the short term vacation rental market. And then. I came across a case study that had to do with, well, what my big takeaway, and I don't wanna ruin it 'cause there's so much work that went in, but my big takeaway was [00:03:00] within, there's these ideas of an economy of scale and a diseconomy of scale.

And I never heard the words diseconomy of scale before, but an economy of scale for the listeners is when you're. Cost and overhead kind of stay the same, but your revenue increases, right? So you have scale, more money drops to the bottom line. You become way more efficient. And the example that you used in there, I think was ball, ball jar.

Well they used to be jars. Now it's just packaging Ball Corp. So in Indiana they'll create a a production line to make a new kind of packaging that. It's a tremendous upfront investment, but when that thing gets humming and it's fully efficient, it costs almost nothing to make each widget that comes out of it.

And I remember seeing Elon Musk speak about it once, when he was talking about SpaceX and he, he was talking about manufacturing, especially whether it's Tesla or spaceships, that if you make enough of [00:04:00] something through a manufacturing process. The cost to produce can almost get to zero. And that is a true economy of scale, right?

So then you have revenue and then just pure profit after that. But what was interesting, and you in this case study, you showed how in hospitality, because there's so complicated, there's different levels of service, there's a tremendous amount of people, there's a, there can be a diseconomy of scale, which can rear up and bite you.

Um, and oftentimes people. People and companies follow this path of scale for the sake of scale. And then they wind up having to go chapter 11, close their doors. And that actually just happened last week as well, although that wasn't in your case study because then you'd be a, a, like a fortune teller. Um, but I wanna describe this because it's been super fascinating to me about how to grow and deliver service.

You kind of have to have, stay within your lane. [00:05:00] To do the best that you can and then grow from there organically. Um, but before we get into all that, Ashley, 'cause I feel like I've been talking way too much, but I'm very excited about this conversation because of that case study and recent events

Ashley Ching: Right,

Dan Ryan: happened in this space.

Um, what does hospitality mean to you and how do you define it?

Ashley Ching: You know, hospitality to me is really an expression of honor. It's how you honor yourself, your team, your guests, um, and your ancestors. Um, so really it's all about, you know, the details, how you show up. How, um, in, in in vacation rental space, you know, you can, you can show your hospitality through how the bed is made through, um, how the home is stocked. Um, you know, how you show up when really no one is watching. That is, that is, to me, that defines hospitality.

Dan Ryan: Okay. So thank you for sharing that. And then if I will go back to one of the slides in your case study, and [00:06:00] maybe if you're watching this on your, if you're listening, maybe watch on YouTube, but 'cause We'll, I'll, we'll do our best to drop the slides in there. But there's this one, it's your typical.

Kind of x and y axis with a 45 degree line that on one, one end of the line, if I remember correctly, it's been a month or so, but like all the way to the left, there is like four seasons, let's say. And all the way to the right, once you get to that scale, and on the, the, the x axis might have been number of units and the Y axis was level of service maybe.

Um, but you get all the way out to the end of that. I forget what it was. It was a, a house rental company, which basically there were so many, but they did nothing. Like if your boiler breaks, they'll come fix it.

Ashley Ching: There's zero service practically.

Dan Ryan: Right. And if I remember in the case study there were like little bar graphs that went along the uh. The Y axis that showed [00:07:00] how many um, units there might have been by and geo and how geographically spread they were. And somehow Four Seasons was like the best example. There were other really great examples, but then as you got bigger, your service has to decrease.

So walk us through that slide and we'll, we'll, we'll get it up here on the YouTube, but walk us through that and what was your finding, and then how does that relate to. Companies who are like, you know what? We're scaling. We're gonna have thousands of units and we're gonna do everything that we can. But you tell your story.

Ashley Ching: I think there's this whole narrative right now that bigger is better and in hospitality it actually cannot be. Um, and which, you know, is why the case study came to fruition was really these near concurrent events of the largest property management companies in both the hotel and the vacation rental space failing at the same time. Uh, we had Ambridge hospitality on the hotel side and Picasa on the, on the vacation rental side.

Dan Ryan: And at the same time.

Okay.

Ashley Ching: Time, [00:08:00] so within

Dan Ryan: So just give, give us a timestamp of when that was, um, so that we can get our heads around that. And then also if you can just give us an idea of when they decided to switch the button or flip the switch to scale for the sake of scaling. Like how long? 'cause that was another slide in there.

It showed that when VE Casa and Abridge decided to grow. It was the same. I don't remember if it was the same time. It must've been the same time,

Ashley Ching: Very similar time periods.

Yeah.

Dan Ryan: but it was, uh, they followed the same trajectory to close down. It was crazy.

Ashley Ching: So essentially, um, at the end of last year, so the end of December, vac Casa announced its distress sale to the Casa Go Consortium. Vac Casa is the largest property manager on the vacation rental side. At the time, they were at the, at their peak they were managing about 44,000 properties. Um,

what was really interesting is just three weeks later. Abridge announced its out of court bankruptcy restructuring, and Abridge being the [00:09:00] largest hotel property manager, at their peak, they're managing about 1500 properties. And so, you know, we started to look into this to say, are these, is it just a coincidence, these near concurrent events, or is there a story here?

And so as we look. Back, we look back at their history of the, of their, their journeys, their corporate journeys. um, they went through these same five key distinct phases at relatively the same time, which was really fascinating. So, to your point earlier, you know, they, they started, you know, um, in the early two thousands with organic growth.

You know, vac Casa started with just one unit in Portland, Oregon. Um, and they grew really organically for their first, you know, five, 10 years of, of being in business. Um, and then they started to raise money and do private equity backed m and a deals, um, that, that really helped them grow significantly.

Dan Ryan: And when was that?

Ashley Ching: Um, that

was for, um, Ambridge.

It was around 2013 they

Dan Ryan: Mm-hmm.

Ashley Ching: deal and for, um, vac Casa, it was around 2016.

Dan Ryan: Wow. Okay. [00:10:00] So that was like also the dangers of inexpensive leverage, right? It's like

Ashley Ching: Yes.

Dan Ryan: that's like it. Wow. It's like, uh, I don't know what that was. It's like cocaine is a hell of a drug from some movie, but it's like low interest rates are a hell of a drug.

Ashley Ching: yes. So they went out and they started to grow through acquisition and there's a lot of lessons learned about the negatives of growing through acquisition. both, so they grew sort of quickly,

um, both of them.

Dan Ryan: That was from a Dave Chappelle sketch by the sketch, by the way, with uh, when he played, I can't remember who. That was really funny. I just had a Dave Chappelle moment there.

He played Rick James. Oh my God, that was hilarious.

Keep going.

Ashley Ching: yeah, so, and then in 2019, um, that's when they both went elephant hunting. So they raised some pretty significant money, um, and Vac Casa acquired, um, Windham Vacation Rentals and Turnkey, [00:11:00] which took them from about 9,000 or a little over, sorry, a little under 11,000 units to about 44,000 at their peak.

Dan Ryan: Wow.

Ashley Ching: in

just a three year period of time. And then, um, ambridge at the same time in 2019, they, um, were actually, they raised, um, capital to buy the number two property manager interstate hotels. Um, and so they went from about 800 units to 1500. And so during the same, you know, 2019 to 21, 20 21 time period, they grew very significantly. And that's when then churn started to happen and the business model just became too complex. They started to lose and run out of money. and so that's really, you know, they, they entered their phase of churn and then they both kind of entered their distressed sale, um, or distressed financial phase at the same time. Um, in, you know, 2024.

Dan Ryan: Do you think like if they, in 2019 when they were raising this, all this capital and debt and leverage, um, and equity to, to go on this kind of hockey stick growth path, [00:12:00] if they knew that COVID was coming and all the support that CO brought to hotel owners, because a lot of hotel owners as dyer as it got, they were, they were able to shift the goalposts.

I think a lot of people going into that didn't know, do you think. If going into COVID, if they knew all the, if COVID happened and they knew all that support, do you think that they still would've gone on with that path?

Ashley Ching: You know, good question. I don't know. Um, you know, if they would've. Changed, um, trajectories, but, you know, COVID, um, was actually a, a pretty good thing for the vacation rental

space. Suddenly

Dan Ryan: Totally.

Ashley Ching: So, you know, companies flourished in the vacation rental

space during COVID.

Dan Ryan: But not necessarily hotels, but hotels were, were able to like renegotiate things with their banks and move goalposts and, and just, you know, tack on time to the end of their, of their debt service agreements. So I'm just curious, uh, yeah, it's just a interesting hypothetical that we'd never know.

Ashley Ching: Well, you know.

and. [00:13:00] one of the things that, you know, when you, when you look at the media narrative of why these failures happened, you know, one of the reasons that the media will say is it's the leadership teams or the CEOs, but we know that 15 different CEO and leadership teams have tried to solve for scaling property management nationally and have all failed. Um, you know, they talk about it was private equity money or the money, but we, we, we see failures on both the public and the private space. and then they talk about exogenous events like COVID, but lots of companies were successful and were able to weather through events like COVID and nine 11. So we knew that there was something deeper here, something more structural. And so what we did was we set out and we interviewed. Um, hundreds of executives across, um, the restaurant, hotel and vacation rental space to understand, you know, what makes for successful property management why do failures occur? we were able to gleam all of these insights, but one of our favorite insights was around dis economies

of

Dan Ryan: Now.

Ashley Ching: Um, and why,

yeah, go [00:14:00] ahead.

Dan Ryan: I've never heard of this economy of scale. Did you make that up or did that come from the, these conversations like, I've never heard of that. I've never heard that term, but I could also just. Be dumb,

like it just,

Ashley Ching: we made it up, but I think it was a new concept. I don't think we talk about it

at

all in the hospitality

space.

Dan Ryan: I think we should talk about it, not just in hospitality, but all businesses. One of the stories that I share

is, you know, I've been an entrepreneur since two weeks before September 11th

and maybe even before in college, but I found at some point I got hooked into, like we were talking about traction and we'll talk about, we can talk about that in a little bit, but there's all this, I call it business porn.

Literature where it's like scale, scale, scale, grow, grow, grow. And you get surrounded by these peers in entrepreneurs organizations or YPO and it becomes like this, keeping up with the Joneses to grow for the sake of growth. And then it doesn't work out as well, at least in my experience. Um, and then, you know, [00:15:00] you're forced to pivot, shit happens.

Um, and then I read a book by this guy, Bo Burlingame. It's called. Um, small giants. I talk about it a lot on this because I wish I read that book early in my career because it said, you don't have to grow for the sake of growth. And he, he gave eight or 10 case studies of, of companies that just stayed small and did the best that they could do.

And they thrived, and whether it was geographically, um, whether it was like what in the product or widget that they were making or some super torqued down niche. But being great and small is really awesome too. So I wa I just wanted to like editorialize that there, as you get into, continue your story.

Ashley Ching: Yeah. So, you know, as we started to study these hospitality companies, we looked at a comp, um, so, and you mentioned Ball Corp. So Ball Corp is the largest manufacturer of aluminum cans in the world. Um, you know, you can set up one line, which is a very expensive, to [00:16:00] your point earlier, to set up. But this one, uh, production line, um, which requires only 18 people can produce up to a billion cans a year. whether you're producing a hundred thousand cans a year or a billion, you only require 18 people. So the more cans you make, the unit economics

gets better,

right? There's

no additional cost to that.

Dan Ryan: And that's the true definition of scale.

Ashley Ching: of

Dan Ryan: That's what scale is.

Ashley Ching: Yes. And then we, on the, on the flip side, when we were thinking about the service or hospitality industry, we, um, at a, uh, a school district outside of Dallas.

Uh, it's the Forney, uh, in the Forney School District. And they were one of the fastest growing school districts in the country. they went from about, um, 8,500 students in 2013 to over 18,000 students

this

year.

Dan Ryan: Wow.

Ashley Ching: And so, you know, they needed to maintain that student to teacher ratio. Right? That's really important of like, you know, [00:17:00] one student to every 20, uh, sorry, one teacher to every 20 students. so as they grew their stu their, their student count. Their staffing count actually grew at a faster rate you needed to maintain the same student to teacher ratios. You then need to hire as you hire more teachers, You

need more

Dan Ryan: Oh, administrative. Yeah.

Ashley Ching: different programs. You need to invest in programs like special ed and art and music.

You just need more, um, you know, more, more things for the school district. And so it's, and we see this similar

trajectory in

Dan Ryan: Uh, on the school district side. So ball,

that's, it's a business, right? It's pr, it's profitable. They invest and they, they dial it out and they'll squeeze every ounce of juice out of that lemon on that line to make it supremely efficient. With schools, it's not a business. So the schools don't go bankrupt.

Right. So they have to keep going and they have the mechanism, I guess, to raise taxes or [00:18:00]

whether it be,

well, I guess in Texas there's no income, but maybe just property taxes just go up and up and up to support it. But they, but that model works.

Ashley Ching: Yep.

Dan Ryan: you consider that Forney School District is by whatever metrics, is that a a successful school district?

Ashley Ching: I mean, I think it's just your typical finding in schools

in

general. I think that

that's just as

Dan Ryan: Okay.

Ashley Ching: grow your student base, you need to maintain those same student to teacher ratios. You need to invest in more programs for the students, and that's very similar to what we see in hospitality as you grow the number of properties under management. Um. You need more people to support that, to be able to deliver

on

the

service

level so

Dan Ryan: But unlike, but unlike a school, you have equity and debt partners that require returns, and if that doesn't happen, then people are getting kicked out of their Saunders like they were last week.

Ashley Ching: Yes, exactly. Yep. So, and then we looked at it also from a dis economies of scale on

just

the cost, right? So as

you

Dan Ryan: I.

Ashley Ching: Economies of

scale, the

whole [00:19:00] idea of it as, as you, um, get bigger, you can negotiate. You, you, You,

get better purchasing agreements, right? And so that works with ball when 55% of their costs are in materials. So when you were, you know, when you are, um, you know, negotiating your cost of materials and aluminum goes down, that can have a very significant impact to your bottom line. on the hospitality side, 55% of your costs are in labor. So labor is your biggest cost driver. as you get bigger. expect better salaries, better benefits.

You now are, um, you know, you've got, um, you, you're subject to organized labor, all these things, so it actually becomes more expensive. From a labor

perspective as you grow and get

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

Ashley Ching: because the expectations become higher. so, you know, by negotiating, being able to negotiate, you know, um, better software costs or whatnot, the impact on the bottom line [00:20:00] isn't as big as your labor. And so we don't see the economies of scale in cost, the cost structure like we do

on

the, um,

manufacturing side of things.

Dan Ryan: And then that's probably further compounded in certain cities like. Maybe New York and la Just to give an example where you have unions and mandated minimum wages and contract renewals for said unions that, you know, they're, they're pretty smart and they time them at a place where they have ultimate leverage for those contract renegotiations.

Ashley Ching: right. Exactly.

Dan Ryan: Ball Corp is a perfect example of an economy of scale. The school system, the Forney School District is exhibit A of a diseconomy of scale, but there's not really a danger zone so much to speak unless people start fleeing Texas or their, their, their school district.

But with hospitality, you're, you have requirements to meet [00:21:00] debt service and give a return to.

Investors. So that is where it could implode badly.

Ashley Ching: Right.

Dan Ryan: So, and in the case of Vac Casa and also abridge you, that's clear as day. Are there other examples in hospitality where that happened? I know I just made a reference to one, but maybe you could.

Yeah,

Ashley Ching: so

Sonder

Dan Ryan: that's fresh.

Ashley Ching: you know, that's very fresh. They just went straight to chapter, um, uh, 11 bankruptcy and liquidation and, um, that just happened, you know, last week when they announced that straight to chapter seven. Um, and they managed about 9,700 units, um, across. Um, 40 different markets. Um, again, and so when we look at, you know, scale, we think about you can scale if your business model isn't as complex, but the more complex your business model is, the harder it's to scale. And so we found that Vac Casa and places people like Sonder and Abridge incredibly complex. [00:22:00] Um, business models.

So we can pull, put up a slide here on just a, a, a rubric that we, um, that we created for this case study, the complexity rubric. But there's different, um, there's different metrics that go into that complexity score. And so, you know, one of them is elevated guest services. So if you're trying to, to deliver on guest guest services like Ambridge, like Sonder, like Vac Casa. You're trying to deliver an elevated guest service that that makes it complex, right? That's already one layer of complexity. Um, then you layer that in. The next metric is varying guest demand drivers. Well, when you're in so many different countries or so many different cities and types of markets, you're gonna have different types of guests and to try to. Attract all these different guests. From a marketing perspective, um, from an experience perspective, it's very difficult. And so the, the more varying demand drivers you have, the more complex your business model [00:23:00] is. Um, you know, another example is just distance between locations. So I know that you spoke to a. vacation rental company

that's

very focused

on

Barcelona.

Dan Ryan: Yeah.

Ashley Ching: You know, that's really one location. You can, you can scale a location,

you know, because you've

got the

density

Dan Ryan: Yeah, you can go deep.

Ashley Ching: companies are all over the place, right? And so, um, you know, that, that adds to complexity. And then, you know, you look at the number of owners and, and va in Va CASA's case, you know, they had potentially

over

40,000

different owners

Dan Ryan: my God.

Ashley Ching: appease. That that was actually our most, one of my most interesting findings from the case study is

that

I

think no one

talks about

that

we heard.

Dan Ryan: That's, you know what, as you're saying that, you know what, it pops in my brain.

It's um,

a Seinfeld episode. I'm so TV oriented. I haven't watched Seinfeld in forever, but it was when Jerry's dad was like flipping out 'cause he had to deal with the Boca Vista condo or HOA or condo. Condominium board. But I can imagine for Vac Casa that's, it's the same thing, but you're dealing with [00:24:00] 40,000 homeowners.

Like, I can't even imagine how to get everyone aligned on what would constitute alignment or a, a good job or where everyone's feeling

like they, yeah, that's crazy.

Ashley Ching: Totally.

You know, we, we we.

we use this example a lot 'cause we, this is just a great example to contrast, you know, the Picasa story. But, you know, we spoke to a company called the Poppas Group, the Poppas Restaurant Group. They own a bunch of restaurants in the Texas and Midwest markets. Papa's, papa's, dunno if you've ever dined at one of their locations, but. you know, they talked about, they had gotten feedback that, um, in their Dallas market, the bathrooms were substandard, so the executive team traveled to Dallas and visited all of the locations and confirmed yes, their standards and their bathrooms were substandard and they needed to make a change.

And so over the weekend, they decided to replace the, all the general managers with the assistant general managers, [00:25:00] sending a clear message to the entire

organization that if you do not meet our standards, we will replace you and we'll make sure that you know

everyone.

Dan Ryan: Oh, and it wasn't from an architectural perspective, like they wanted a nicer tile. It just wasn't clean.

Ashley Ching: No, it was, it was just, it wasn't as clean as

they expected. And so they were able to make this very swift decisive change because they own and they manage all of their restaurants. Now, if you have a problem, vac Casa, which picasa lots of problems and you need

to

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

Ashley Ching: your

make changes to your organization, but you've gotta get over

40,000 owners on board. I mean, you're

barely

gonna

be able to.

Deliver that

change

in a, you know, and it's gonna take forever to do that. And so one of the, the most interesting findings I think people don't talk about is this whole idea of limiting the number of owners that you take on, because you're going to need to make changes in your company to move forward. And so you need to make sure that you can get all of your owners aligned and

moving in

that direction quickly so you can make quick and efficient changes that are necessary to

improve your [00:26:00] business.

Dan Ryan: Wow. And then how did you find the prop group? Was that just from all those interviews you conducted?

Ashley Ching: Yeah, so through our network, we have a network of just,

you know, various individuals across, you know, each of the industries. And so to be able to speak to, people in the restaurant industry, how do they manage their restaurants? What, what, you know, what are, how, what were their success drivers? You know, where are their, where

Dan Ryan: Wow. Okay, so

Ashley Ching: to learn,

um, from different groups across the hospitality industry and to share best practices.

Dan Ryan: going back to that

kind of XY.

45 degree angle as you go up and the successful, the last one was that home rental company that had very little service, so it was super, not complicated, but they were able to scale to over 4,000 homes, or I think 4,000 or 40,000.

Okay, there we go. 66,000.

Ashley Ching: 66,000.

Yeah, they do more long, midterm and long

term

rentals.

Um.

Dan Ryan: I guess you could, you could, oh, in the case study you also said like Extended Stay [00:27:00] America was also on the road towards that scale.

It's limited service, wide geographic kind of simple, not as complicated.

Ashley Ching: Well, they, they own and manage all their, so their, again, their management structure is very different. They own and manage every, uh, all of their, um. hotels and they are, you know, and talk about similar demand drivers, right? These are, um, they are really targeting the same customer regardless of the location.

Another great, great example is, um, um, right? They're all over the US but they are, you

know,

in high traffic areas of malls and off the highway.

They're, they're servicing someone who wants a

quick fast

food meal. The menu doesn't

change.

Dan Ryan: But they're franchise owned. But it's so hard they,

I only know anecdotally, but from what I hear, the way that they select for those

owner franchisees, like you have to be.

Drinking that Kool-Aid and [00:28:00] believing hook, line and sinker that this is the way and there's no deviation. And it's really interesting how they, they can recruit and then maintain that because, I don't know, Chick-fil-A is new to me up in the northeast, but it's it's the same everywhere and it's good everywhere.

And everyone seems really happy working there too. It's crazy.

Ashley Ching: Yeah. And they have to, they're, they're, um. Their franchisees have to work. It's their full-time job. They have to be in the store or in the, in the, in the restaurant space, um, full-time. So yeah, it's a very strict, um, model of, of bringing on new franchisees. Um, but yeah, so, and, and again, their menu doesn't change and they're servicing basically the same customer across the country.

So there's really not this,

these

varying demand drivers. Um, and so, you know, those

are successful models that

we have

seen

be

able to scale.

Sponsor: Hey, everybody. We've been doing this podcast for over three years now, and one of the themes that consistently comes up is sustainability, and I'm just really proud to announce that our sponsor, Berman Fall Hospitality Group is the first within our [00:29:00] hospitality industry to switch to sustainable and recyclable packaging, eliminating the use of styrofoam.

Please check out their impact page in the show notes for more info.

Dan Ryan: okay, so you created Inhaven first as a founder entrepreneur, and you were operating the business and then you did this case study.

Was it confirmation bias? were you like, okay, we're on the right path? Or did it change? Drastically how you were looking at growth and scale or lack of scale. Like how did walk us through that.

Ashley Ching: Yeah, no, from the moment that I started Inhaven I've had the thesis that property management is a local business. It doesn't scale nationally. And so, you know, the writing was on the wall for Vac Casa, even for Sonder talked about this for years, that that business model was going to fail because property management is a local [00:30:00] business, right?

It's the local boots on the ground. It's those teams that, take care of these properties that, um. Are able

to, they

know the, local area, you know, they're

able

to make the best guest

recommendations. They're able to

find the

plumber

if there's an issue. Right.

They are, they are the local boots on the

ground.

Dan Ryan: That's the most important thing really,

Ashley Ching: Exactly. Yeah, Yeah, yeah,

You need running water. You need flushable toilets. That's really important. So, you know, those are the people that deliver the hospitality locally. And, and I think what people don't know, at least on the vacation rental side, and maybe it's different on the hotel side, is that when you show up at a Marriott or a Hilton hotel, you are most likely not talking to a Marriott employee.

Right? You are talking to an employee of that local property manager that's there to deliver hospitality. Um, and so. You know, that is the same on the vacation rental side. And so that is really that those local teams that deliver it best. And so it has always been a thesis of mine that you can't scale property [00:31:00] management nationally because it's a local business. Um, and, and it will fail. And so this, the, this case study sort of substantiates the whole thesis that I have around inh. And so with the hotel industry, you've got four key stakeholders. Um, you've got the owners of the hotel, you have the property managers, you have the brands, so the Marriotts, Hilton, Hyatts, and then you have the distribution like hotels.com and Expedia. In the vacation rental side of things, you are missing the brand. You've got the

owners,

you have the

property managers, you have the distribution

like Airbnb and vrbo, but you don't have

any of these

Dan Ryan: Mm.

Ashley Ching: brand concepts,

so you've got

20 plus thousand different property managers trying to communicate to guests. Stay with me. And so what we're developing at Inhaven is that national hospitality concept where we work with these property [00:32:00] managers to set standards for their bed, bath, and kitchen. So the sleep, bathing and eating experience. And so if a customer is traveling from, um, had a great experience in Steamboat Springs, Colorado, one winter, and wants to, uh, with Movie Mountains, which is one of our property management partners, and wants to go to Park City the next year for a ski, you know, another ski destination, well, of course they've gotta stay at a boat, right?

They're gonna have the same level of comfort. Because they, they, they achieved this luxury level of comfort and they're gonna have the same service levels. And so what we're doing is creating that network of property managers that

are committed

to these standards around the us so that

guests can find these homes and, book with more

certainty and

confidence.

Dan Ryan: So it's interesting you bring up the bed, bath and kitchen, because

I had some friends,

and, they're still my friends, but they went to go work from hotels to Airbnb. Right. Which is, it's like, [00:33:00] I don't know, I bring up Elon again, but Tesla is a car company, right? But their Val, their val, their PE ratio or their, how they're valued is like it in the hundreds.

On their earnings versus Ford, which is like six or seven, or Toyota, which is seven or eight. Toyota's like the biggest car company, right? So their earnings multiple is like

eight, right? Airbnb, they come out of the gate with so many things they blow out. I think if you were to add up the valuations of all of the different hotel companies, the brands, air Airbnb is still valued higher than them, but it's so.

Distributed and they want to have these like unique individual experiences. But as a furniture guy, I talked to the, my friends, I was like, Hey, do you wanna like standardize anything? Like, can I make a tray that you put a newspaper in or a tea service or like a, a bookcase in every single Airbnb? And they're like, no, we want everything to [00:34:00] be different.

We want, it's all about the owner We, it's the owner is the host. Right. Which I think is kind of cool, but it makes for. I don't know, a very lumpy or volatile guest experience, right? You don't really know what you're gonna get into. Um, and it has a place, a time and a place for who you're traveling with, like budget, whatever, whatever, whatever.

But how do you maintain that in Bed, bath and sleeping? And how do you get these management companies and owners to buy into that? And then is it like you have to have so many. Red wine glasses and this much cutlery or this kind of sheet, like how, what are the big ticket or like the big needle movers in there

Ashley Ching: Mm-hmm.

Dan Ryan: they have to commit to.

Ashley Ching: So standards in the vacation rental industry

is different than hotels. First of all, um, you

can wake up in a Hyatt in

Tokyo or

Cincinnati and not know

where you

are,

right? It's very cookie cutter. Guests choose vacation rentals because they wanna feel like a local, right? They wanna go to a beach house and feel like they're on the beach [00:35:00] or a mountain home and feel like they're in the mountains, but they

don't

want uniqueness when it comes to sleeping, bathing, and eating.

They don't want a round bed or

a watered,

they want comfortable

beds. And

so I think.

Dan Ryan: Well, Some

do.

Ashley Ching: Some

Dan Ryan: on, some

Ashley Ching: people,

Dan Ryan: Mm-hmm.

Ashley Ching: right? The multigenerational travelers,

the.

Dan Ryan: So that's a very important point because you're.

Much in the same way when I was talking about that, um, small giants book, it's you, you can either niche down geographically or by that psychographic, I think they call it a psychographic. It's who that customer is. So you just said multi-generational, whatever, like continue.

But you have, in order for this to be successful, you're not going after every traveler. You're going after.

Ashley Ching: Yeah.

Dan Ryan: So how do you, how do you define

Ashley Ching: attractive

to my 20-year-old cousin.

Right. Looking

Dan Ryan: Yeah.

Ashley Ching: have an Instagram wall in Nashville.

So we are

focused on.

Dan Ryan: Unless his grandparents are paying for it.

Ashley Ching: Unless his [00:36:00] grandparents are paying for it. That's correct. Yes. But you know, I think that it is, we are very much focused on professional property managers, so people that are, um, that this is their full-time job.

They have local offices and these destinations, we're very much focused on vacation rental destinations. So we're not focused on. Fremont, California, a random suburb in the East Bay, right? These are destinations that people go to for the nature, for the mountains, for the local town. Very cute. Local festival. Um, so these are destinations people travel to, and we're, we're focused on whole homes, so we're not looking at shared bedrooms or, you know, um. Uh, you know, a, a garage. Um, and we're focused on these, these property managers, so these people that have local offices, local teams on the ground that are really committed to standards.

And it was funny because I came at this from a guest perspective because I've got four young kids. And so when we travel, we stay in vacation rentals, we need multiple bedrooms, a kitchen, et cetera. I was sick of showing up at vacation rentals [00:37:00] where the pictures look great, but the beds were crappy. You pull out the drawer and you'd find like two knives and a fork for, you know, a, a house that slept six. Um, and so I wanted to address this and so, um, you know, we're, we're, we are delivering more certainty to that. That guest that looks for, they need comfort. They need to, they, they can enjoy the gathering spaces without getting a good night's sleep. we are very focused on who we're working with from a professional property management, property manager perspective, where we're focused.

So in terms of

these, really, these destinations that.

Uniqueness is not

part

of ever part of their

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

Ashley Ching: Right. People go to Hilton Head

for the beach, and the golf go to Steamboat to ski and to hike.

don't need to, they don't need to

make a home unique to

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

Ashley Ching: Um, so that, that,

you know, those are some of the choices that we've made to really go after this audience

that

we think is looking for, for

more

certainty when they're booking their

stays.

Dan Ryan: [00:38:00] So you've niched down your geography. You've niched down your manager management partners. You've niched, niched down your guests, right? And then.

As you,

as you've been growing, what, what's your biggest hurdle right now to continue to scale, but within those tight guardrails?

Ashley Ching: Yeah, I mean, I think

it's just, it's funny because when I

started this,

I came at it from

a guest

perspective,

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

Ashley Ching: the people that

have

benefited

most from this are actually the property managers because they can't have different sheet, you know, once you get past 20 properties, you can't have different sheets in every property, different coffee makers, right?

They need to standardize, and so it's really getting them to understand the value of that, because once they see the value. They wish they did this, you know, years ago they wish they had a linen program in place for their owners and all these different things. So I think it's just getting them a hurdle over the hurdle of like, what are you doing today? You're running around with your head cut off. You've got all [00:39:00] these different things to remember about all these different properties. Let's, let's standardize these areas of the home. But quite frankly. Plates break, right sheets need to be replaced. There's a lifetime on those sheets. And so this isn't,

you know, we're,

we're really standardizing the things

that are the most replaced things in the

home.

And so.

it's really getting them

that over them, over that

hurdle.

Go I'm sorry. So aside from

Dan Ryan: finding the best managers with the best properties in those geo geographies that mean the most to you,

and then marketing to those multi-generational families that ex have a certain

threshold of expectation. And then for, I guess the service offering, which could be, like you said, the sheets, the towels, the stemware.

Plates, napkins for that part of it. Do you become like A-G-A-G-P-O? I think it's called like a group purchasing organization, where you can then help get scale by negotiating better pricing for all those other properties, like what's your value prop?

Ashley Ching: All of, so [00:40:00] people use in Haven to one, set their standards and then shop those standards. So we, my background's in merchandising, um, so I've got relationships with the manufacturers around the world, um, and have been able to negotiate. You know, great rates, great pricing on hospitality grade supplies. And so they come to us to replenish those homes.

We've got a whole suite of inventory management tools, owner quoting tools that make their businesses more efficient. We alert them when they're running low in supplies that they wanna keep in stock and their warehouses of their offices. And so they use us to procure and then replenish those homes. And then the next phase of INH is, um, introducing a guest facing. where guests can come and learn about these homes. You know, we're working on various partnerships with credit card companies as an example. We know that. Um, credit card points are 30% of the points are used against stays, but um, and mostly it's hotels. Less than 1% of credit card points [00:41:00] goes to vacation rentals.

And that's because these credit card companies don't trust the inventory. Right? They're not gonna have their customers spend a million points to have a really crappy stay somewhere. So we're working with them to bring the inh that curated inventory onto their sites so that they can have the vacation rental offering because it's over 20% now of lodging spend.

It goes to vacation rentals. So people want to stay in vacation rentals. They just can't trust the inventory out there. And so the fact that we know. Who these property managers are, what their service levels are, which we haven't really gotten into. But we do know what type of service. You know, we have luxury service where you would see, you know, one, one service, one team member to every five homes versus more of a economy level, which is like one team member to every 15 to 20 homes. Um, so we can, we can engage their service levels and then we see what they're buying and putting in these homes so we know what kind of quality goes into.

The bath, the kitchen. And so we can guarantee these types of

experiences to these, you know,

various [00:42:00] partners out there.

Dan Ryan: And then

you are then

bringing value

by Mar, like you're marketing direct to all these multi-generational families that have a certain level of service and quality.

And then you're also adding value by

finding value aligned

management. Management companies and teams, right? And properties.

Ashley Ching: Exactly. Yep. Mm-hmm.

Dan Ryan: Let's say,

and I heard you say Mountain Beach.

Give me a, like, what's a market

that you want to get into, but that, but you haven't been into yet.

Ashley Ching: you know, we're

looking

at places like Gatlinburg,

um,

yeah.

Dan Ryan: Okay, cool. Okay, so now Gatlinburg super awesome, very specific,

draws a lot of people.

Let's say you're going to look there.

What is the, like, what's the big win for you while you survey properties and management companies, like if there's a management company out there that's [00:43:00] intrigued by what your value prop is, who, like what's the psychographic of them?

What and, and how many units do they have? Like who's your ideal management company in, in and around Gatlinburg, let's say.

Ashley Ching: Yeah, so it's anyone that manages anywhere between 20 to about a thousand properties max, um, as like our ideal sweet spot. Um, and so these have, it's a management team that have a local team there that their full-time job is to care for these properties. So we're looking for that local office, local team, boots on the ground.

Um, this isn't a co-host or, um, a host that lives 300 miles away. you know, this is a, this is a full-time profession for them. And they've got full operations in that market. Um, and then what we do is we work

with them

to

sort of understand, you know,

what are they purchasing today? What are the standards they set there for their

homes today? Because most of these companies have

some, some level of

standards

in

their homes.

Dan Ryan: Mm-hmm.

Ashley Ching: then we look

at, okay, well,

you know, this is where we would. Make changes. Changes, or this is where we would make improvements. [00:44:00] And so we then, um, and we tour their homes, we tour their warehouses, we understand their operations, and then they purchase

for, from

us for about six to 12 months before we would consider them.

So we can see their purchase patterns, what they're

putting in their homes, what they're

allocating to

their

homes.

Dan Ryan: Oh, interesting. So you're actually, you're, you're starting off with them saying, Hey,

we have this menu of.

Sleep, eat, bathe,

uh, tr try it out. And then you get to kind of see they, they kind of commit to you by purchasing from you, but then you get to see how much they're doing. And then also, I'm sure you're looking at guest feedback and all that other stuff, correct.

Ashley Ching: Yeah, and you know, sort of like, I think what this industry is missing is you don't. The trust is completely the, from the vacation rental industry. So you can't just buy a big box and put a Marriott sign on and call it a Marriott, right? There are standards that you need to adhere to, and so we're, we're helping them understand, okay, here, if you wanna call yourself luxury, here are the types of standards that are in luxury homes from the [00:45:00] bedding to the number of dinner plates or number of wine glasses in the home.

So the power levels, you know, we're, we're helping them. Get to that level if they're not already, or just standardizing across their homes if they've got, you know, you know, all these different products in all their homes. And then we sort of watch them and work with them and we come, become an extension of their team. And then we can say, okay, you're ready to have this sort of badge at

INH

stay. Or we

would feel comfortable marketing you to guests

or to our,

um, you know,

credit card partners.

Dan Ryan: So

in a way, you're not

signing them on fully at the beginning, right? So there's a way to kind of test how you deliver to them.

Um.

Ashley Ching: Yep.

Dan Ryan: But as you're, let's say, I like the idea of Gatlinburg. Like you're, you find someone who has 20 to 4,000 units,

um, you like, what's the biggest kind of pushback you get from them?

It's like, oh, if I were them, I'd be like, oh, I don't wanna like, change my [00:46:00] supply chain again. Like, uh, like what are the things that you hear? Like as resistance, and then once you do establish that beachhead, what are the testimonials You'll hear like what's the before and what's the after?

Ashley Ching: Yeah, I mean, I think the property management is one of the hardest jobs, right? It's a 24 7 thing. They've got lean teams, they're running around with their heads cut off, right? And they've got guests

calling,

owners calling. They're, they're

trying to appease all these different groups. So it's really just

having them set time

to

change their

processes.

Dan Ryan: Mm-hmm.

Ashley Ching: Um,

we will most

likely guarantee a significant savings, right? Because. Distribution of wholesale, and then they're buying better products that are just more durable. Um, so once, so they typically start with us, with like one room. They might say, okay, we'll do kitchen with you. And then they see how much efficiencies they gain by using our inventory management tool, by working with our team that then they kind of say, all right, we'll move on to bedrooms or bathrooms. Um, and so really it's this. They start out with

one area

sort of testing [00:47:00] us, and

then we

expand and, um, you know, to cover

all three areas. We also do cleaning as

well, so all the cleaning

supplies,

Dan Ryan: Oh wow.

Ashley Ching: to make sure they're, they're maintaining

those standards as well. Um, and so it's really just, usually it's a testing one area of the poem and standardizing across that area, and then we move on to, to the other areas.

And that's really, I mean. That's a lot of our customers have started and, and that's, you know, we get so much feedback that they just wish that they had gone in, you know, to do it all from the

start,

um, with us once they, you know, trust our team and see, see the type of value that we add and the

type

of processes we can help

improve.

Dan Ryan: So when you're kind of evaluating

management slash operators

in like, let's just say Gatlinburg again, are you, you set up meetings, are you sharing with them the case study that's, I find so fascinating or like how do you do it like. How are you walking through those initial meetings and, 'cause [00:48:00] where I wanna go with this question is, um, we can use Gatlinburg or the entire United States or world if every operator or property management company read this case study or had you walked them through it.

What do you think would change immediately?

Ashley Ching: Um, you know, I think they would think differently about scaling the whole idea of scaling. And I think, you know, a lot of people that we've spoken to, a lot of these local property managers, you know, that are. One woman we talked to in in, in Hilton Head Island, who was a great business there, managed about 70 properties in Hilton Head. You know, they were like, well, why don't you expand to another beach town nearby Myrtle Beach or whatever. And she was like, you know, some people are pushing me to expand, expand my business there, but I don't know anyone there locally. I mean, it's not that far away, but. I would have to build out my whole team.

And so it's almost like it's validating to these local property managers that like, yes, I'm gonna introduce more complexity to my business. And I have a very profitable and a very successful [00:49:00] business locally. And so a lot of people have said, this just validates

me

not, um, jumping on this bandwagon of bigger is better and I need

to scale and, and grow at

all.

Dan Ryan: I would say that that owner

of

that management company

is unique.

I'm sure that there are many others like her. It was a her. Yeah.

In the sense that

many people, when they start, when they get going, they're like, oh, I have to grow. I have to grow. And then it introduces all this other complexity. I talked to a another group who invest in restaurants as they want to scale, and so if they have five or 10 locations, I was like, how do you start that conversation?

Well, he is like, first we know that. We hear that they wanna scale, so they come for us if we can help them. Raise equity and debt so that we can get them on this path to scale, but

in like, I forgot how long, but in those first few months while we're getting to know them, we're talking to the owner and trying to talk them out of scaling.

Like, why do you really like, your life [00:50:00] is going to change.

Are you sure you really want to do this? And they wind up talking out. A lot of people do you have to, I guess you're doing the opposite. Well, I guess you're doing what they're doing, but.

They want people, they wanna find restaurateurs who wanna grow, and they're like, no, no, no, but you're actually looking for people who are like, no, I have a good thing going. I wanna make it better.

Ashley Ching: Exactly.

Dan Ryan: Okay.

Ashley Ching: wanna improve and

and you know, maybe they're

investing local,

they're just building the number of properties they have locally. But again, as long as they're following that rubric of. Similar guest demand drivers. You know, we see problems even locally. Like if you're on Hilton heading, you're trying to service luxury homes and economy homes, right?

You have two different guests that you're trying to target requires different marketing strategies and whatnot, and becomes, it adds more complexity of your team. So, I think a lot of our successful property managers have grown grown from 50 units to 200, but they've been very focused on the type of unit they bring on.

they've been very curated, and they've really.

pick with the

type of owners they're [00:51:00] bringing. they're

bringing onto their

platform.

Dan Ryan: Wow. Okay, so.

Stepping outside of Gatlinburg and just looking at the, the map or the globe,

um, what's next for, for INH and

how are you planning to scale and not wind up into that diseconomy of scale trap?

Um.

Ashley Ching: so it's really on, we're now, you

know, we've, we've got these homes we that are fully standardized and now we want to get more distribution, more eyeballs on these homes. And so we are, um, moving into more of the B2C business as well, going direct to guests, through various partnerships with credit card, with hotel companies to bring this. Um, set of inventory that is extremely curated, extremely trustworthy, um, to

these various

companies so that they

can,

um, you know, be able to provide

more vacation rental options to their,

to their customers.

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

Ashley Ching: So, um, it's

really moving into the

B2C [00:52:00] world and we couldn't have started there because we needed to first vet and verify, um,

that these

property management companies

were committed to these standards, um, and

delivering on the service levels

that they say.

Dan Ryan: I love the

story. I love the case study. I love your path, and I love. How you've, you're kind of, everything is about creating these hard, um, boundaries about not going outside. 'cause you want to deliver

on what your promise is.

Um,

and so many people lose that. And then coming back to the, the Sonder story, it's, it's, we, we scheduled this before last week or a couple weeks ago, but just last week.

Paolo Ferrari and his team, they won Designer of the Year at the Gold Key Awards, I believe. And the morning that they were getting their award for hospitality, like hospitality designer of the year, many of them were staying at the Sonder, I forget which one in [00:53:00] Manhattan. And they were told that morning they had to vacate the premises on this great joyous day celebrating their excellence in hospitality. I'm sorry to laugh guys, but they got kicked out.

Ashley Ching: Right.

Dan Ryan: And, And, they were supposed to be there for another couple days. And, uh, when I heard that story that night, we had a par, uh, a party after to celebrate all the winners and finalists. I just, I couldn't believe that that actually happened so much in the same way that I wish every budding entrepreneur would read the book.

Small Giants. What is your advice to every budding op entrepreneur that wants to grow, grow?

grow?

Ashley Ching: Read the case study

Dan Ryan: Learn the words diseconomy of scale.

Ashley Ching: Learn the word, just economies of scale.

Read the case study. I mean, this is, this is a culmination of hundreds of interviews with top executives across these industries and their lessons learned. And I feel like it is just a gift to anyone that is looking to scale in property management, [00:54:00] read,

you know,

learn from these people, learn from their successes and their

failures, and to make better decisions,

uh,

for the future of your business.

So,

Dan Ryan: I would even say don't limit that, reading that case study, case study to

just the, the entrepreneurial property managers. I'm saying any entrepreneur

should read that and get, and, and

and understand that. I mean, it's pretty awesome. So based on that. If people wanted to learn more about you or inh or get a copy of that, um, case study and we'll, I'll, we'll do our best to drop the slides in here that we were referring to. Um, what's a good way for them to learn more about you and inh

and the case study?

Ashley Ching: can always, um, reach out. Email me@ashleyatinh.com. um, I'm on LinkedIn as well. Um, would love to hear from you and just talk further. Um, it's

it's a

fascinating case study, but it's, it's something that we continue to evolve and learn from, from more

people that are in the industry. So I'd, I'd

love to talk to

anyone who's interested.

Dan Ryan: Yeah, and I was so taken by [00:55:00] it. I was even at the, uh,

I MCed this radical, it's called Radical Innovation Ceremony in New York City.

And there was a professor from UNLV Glenn who I'd met in on calls, and I think I, I know I've met him in the past as well, and I was telling him about this diseconomy of scale.

He's like, that's fascinating. And he's a teacher of hospitality. And so I connected,

I think I connected him with you somehow, so I'm sure a meeting is happening.

Um, but

it's just, it's really fascinating and I think

growth for the sake of growth,

having learned the hard way me, um. There's a better way.

There is a better way. So, um, Ashley, I appreciate you so much in sharing the story and letting us geek out on this. And, uh, thank you.

Ashley Ching: Thank you,

Dan, for having me on. I appreciate your time too.

Dan Ryan: And also to all of our listeners, the.

One of the things that excites me so much about doing this every week is I'm always learning this quenches my curiosity. And I, I feel like I always walk away from every [00:56:00] conversation better. Um, there's so much in this one and in this case study, so I definitely suggest downloading it, check it out.

Um, and this is why I do this. So if this change your idea of hospitality or scale or not scaling hospitality, um, please. Like it, subscribe. And don't forget, we've grown a lot by word of mouth. So Pat, if you know someone who could benefit from this, a property manager, a management company, other budding entrepreneur, please send it to them.

I think that it, it's something that I wish I knew 20 something years ago. So thank you all, like, subscribe, pass it on and we'll catch you next time.