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Get a seat at the table and build the design career you want. This podcast is for designers looking to break in, level up, and take control of their careers—whether you're freelancing, climbing the corporate ladder, or just trying to get noticed. Every two weeks, we dive into career fundamentals, design best practices, and the hottest topics in the design community.
I mean, you know me. Some of the people listening now, might be new, but I am very minimalistic. Like, I use Figma and I have Cloth, and I'm not switching tools at all because I just think it's a distraction. Until I until I see a clear winner. Like, if if everyone's talking about this new tool and everyone's using it and all my clients want me to use it, that's a signal for me to switch.
Nick:We're officially live. We're officially live exactly. I mean, this is just an experiment.
Tyler:The first ever Design Table Podcast live on air on the interwebs. How are doing, man? How are feeling? I'm good. I'm good.
Tyler:I'm not nervous. How are you? Say I'm not nervous a lot in front of people, so well, regardless. I'm doing good. Yeah.
Tyler:I'm excited to have this conversation live, interact with some of our people who are listening, and answer any questions. But by the end of this stream, I guess, what do you what do you want people to learn?
Nick:I want people to learn the, you know, a a modern way of designing and the actual difference, you know, for them to be able to find a way through all the the nonsense you see on social media and also people to hopefully regain some confidence that they're in the right profession and that it's still fun to design. You know, we always call this therapy sessions, or maybe that's a bit of that mixed in as well.
Tyler:I think we're gonna have some pretty good perspectives, like you freelance me in house. Ways of working, how this changed over the last kind of little bit or short little bit. It feels like it's changing every week to every minute. Would love to dive into what are some of the new things that or or tools that you're leveraging in your workflow. I think yeah.
Tyler:I'll let you go ahead, actually.
Nick:Yeah. And I I also think I want to find out the difference between freelancing and in house because, you know, I see a lot of posts of, you know, people being concerned and in doubt about design, but it feels like many of them have, you know, CEOs, stakeholders, managers shoving AI AI down their face like, hey. You have to use this even though they don't want to. Something I don't really notice myself as a, you know, small individual freelancer. Yeah.
Nick:So that that's something I have on my mind as well. And then also, I want to compare today's design to design role to, let's say, five years ago, maybe even ten years ago, and see if there's actually a difference and how much of difference there is. Yeah. Maybe that's a good place
Tyler:to start. Like, what is what has been, like, the typical over the last, like, decade? What has been, like, the typical design process? Let's start there. And then I would love to kind of dive into, like, what that looks for you today.
Nick:Yeah. Well, I remember the design thinking days, you know, where you had, like, the five steps of getting familiar with the situation, the users, that kind of stuff, also of testing, prototyping, exploring, figuring things out. And then once you feel like you had something, you would go and validate slash build or a mixture of both, and then that's a circle that repeats. But I've always felt like that was something you do in a science lab, but then in real life, things are way messier and uglier than that. And my gut feeling says that it's the same today still, you know?
Nick:But there's a big layer of we don't know where this AI thing is going on top of it, and that's really clouding the way we actually should design and have been designing for a long time. But I I don't have that like, it's it's in the back of my mind, but I haven't been able to clearly write it down or speak about it. So my answer is a bit messy also. That's fair.
Tyler:I guess, yeah, I could probably speak to you had mentioned there, like, probably you're not feeling the same AI kind of, like, we need to change. We need to change. I think that you feel it more in house, and I think it is, like, across my ears to the ground across different companies. Like, they are incentivized to essentially burn credits, which is part of, like, the experimental phase. Yeah.
Tyler:So the sucking cost of getting AI adoption and then figuring out what the guardrails or the rules are. What does that look like for you, like, today? Like, what is, like, what is what does your process look like? Are you still going discovery wireframes, high fidelity on OAWR? I know you have a bit of web development in your back pocket as well.
Nick:Yeah, true. Now I haven't wireframed for a very long time, and I'm not sure why. You know, the reasons I can think of is, you know, first of all maybe the reasons why you would wireframe aren't really there anymore as much as they were before. You know, it's much easier to well, no. Let's let's take a step back first.
Nick:Like, a few years ago, making something high fidelity and building it would take way more time, energy, people, money. Yep. So, you know, wireframing is, you know, the quick and dirty way to first check, like, is this direction something we should explore? Does it have potential? Yes or no?
Nick:If yes, nice. Let's spend the effort to make it high fidelity. If not, well, we dodged the bullet there. You know, we didn't spend all this money just to figure out that it wasn't the right direction. You know?
Nick:Today, it's just way quicker to, you know, you know, generate something or design something in in Figma using, you know, templates or or component libraries. So that's the reason, and maybe we're just more in a hurry today. You know? Let's just ship it, that kind of mentality. So maybe clients have less patience, I think, is the right way to put it to, know, to give a designer the time to wireframe.
Nick:So I'm not really wireframing anymore.
Tyler:Yeah. That's fair. And also, like, on top of that, like, clients don't understand what a wireframe is, so it's it's always about prefacing or setting the table. What is a wireframe? This is what it is.
Tyler:It's not real. It's a sketch. They're all that hurdle. Yeah. Also, internal teams as well.
Tyler:Like, what is a wireframe? But I I agree with you. It is so quick now where, like, velocity has increased because competition is higher. We need to get to, like, a thing faster. And and skipping that step, like, I've done as well.
Tyler:I've I've completely wiped that out, especially last year. Wireframing was was kind of dead in my eyes
Nick:there. Yeah. Is that still the case?
Tyler:Yeah. I haven't touched a wireframe in in and who knows? I made a bold statement yesterday that last year that I wasn't gonna I wasn't gonna delve into wireframes. I just find drawing rectangles is not a way to validate a concept. Maybe it's a maybe it's good to have something to present while you're kind of talking through an idea, but, like, how quickly you can kind of create, like, a prototype to communicate an idea now is, like, I'd rather go that direction.
Tyler:A quick prompt. Here's here's my clickable thing. Now I can either come to the discussion with the PM's engineering team, and then it's it's really become a communication piece rather than or a better communication piece versus a wireframe or to a traditional wireframe.
Nick:Yeah. I I have a lot of questions there, but I also see a few people in the, you know, in our live little chat thingy. Like, should we, you know, read a few of those or should we
Tyler:Yeah. Let's do it. Yeah. If you're in the chat, please shoot all your questions. We'll read them live.
Nick:I I know I feel like I'm in some sort of rocket ship. I have my view looking at you and then I have my second screen split with Twitter and then LinkedIn, so I feel like a really smart person at this moment. Jarvis Ativan. Yeah. Exactly.
Nick:You know, so what I'm seeing, for example, is Imam. I hope I'm saying that right. Hello. I feel like today people are less able to express their mood in design because AI is setting a specific form slash aesthetic. Whereas five years ago, we are okay to make mistakes and even love our mistakes to fluctuate them.
Nick:AI can also be a key to fluctuate our designs. It's just a tool we need to adapt. And Okay. What do you think? Mean, it's output driven in a way.
Nick:Right? Like, so it it says do on a path, I think. Yeah. I think for
Tyler:me yeah. I think for me, the AI thing is just, like, to get it has removed the cold start, so the empty page, the twiddling of the thumbs of, like, okay. I have to start on a project. Let me just get it to my LLM, and then I get a thing. The consequence of that and I've talked I've been talking about this with designers at other companies as well, is, like, we are the cognitive load that we have to kind of hold as designers is pretty high.
Tyler:Like, there is no break. I am creating I am creating more than I could remember. But regardless, like, the the usefulness is just creating a thing. Our our job as designers is still for the quality check. So, like, to her point, like, there's a certain aesthetic.
Tyler:I think that's the the is the consequence of the limitation in terms of design quality that, like, a Claude or a Chachapi can kind of output us in terms of, like, creating a prototype or or design a website product, etcetera. It doesn't it's limited. It's it's base it might be learning off of one design that's like a purple gradient website. Oh, yeah. It's it's very clear when something is AI generated, but I I think that's just a first step.
Tyler:It's, like, our job to push it a bit further and then add a bit of our kind of magical touch, like, to make to create a a a perfect brand.
Nick:Mhmm. Yeah. I mean, that that does speak in favor of wireframing. That's one of the old school UX reasons to do wireframes is to prevent people from going, why is this purple? You know?
Nick:Shouldn't it be green? And that's not the discussion we want to have because I think still today, the prototypes you generate are not about the way it looks but more about, you know, does it feel right when you click through it from, you know, start to finish? Like, the interreming is more important. Right?
Tyler:Yeah. Fair. I do I show something there's there's value in it. So, like, for example, we have PMs now vibe coding things. So, like, they're not doing wireframes because I don't think they would want to.
Tyler:And second, hark back to my earlier point. It's again, it's just a a way to communicate an idea. Traditionally, like, what PS would do to present a concept, they would do their kind of desk research discovery. From a business lens, there's a gap in the market for the x feature, thing, and then they would print us present us a, like, a PRD document, which is what a better way to put someone to sleep than to present them a wall of text on a document. Now they're now they're able to kind of vibe, put it, create a concept that they can either show show you run user reviews, valet an idea, and then once that's done, pass off to the designers to kind of do their exploration.
Tyler:There's a New Orleans is a benefit because it now they can properly articulate their idea or concept. The consequence or the version point that it's currently enabling is that if they do that validation step, we still they're only validating the concept. They're not validating the experience or the UX. So, like, when they're creating this prototype and handing over to design, it's the designer's job to do the proper process, make sure that we're translating the idea, whether it's high fidelity or not, into a experience that represents the brand or the product that you're building it. So that's what I've kind of seen.
Tyler:Like, there's there's benefits in the speed and early validation, but we still have to do our job. That's where that's what I'm seeing, I guess, internally is that, like, everyone is vibe coding the rule the the roles are flattening, but it's still like, the different verticals or the different team collaborators, like, they need to do their job. And from engineering design to product as well. When you say concept
Nick:and not the the UX and the design part, What's part of that concept? Like, what does it look like?
Tyler:It looks like a full high fidelity like like, I've we've enabled I've I've kind of trained people internally to kind of learn how to vibe code, meaning they have access to Figma. I've taught I taught them the workflow of here's here's our existing database of Figma designs. You can take one of these Figma boards, inject it into either Figma make, Chris, or Claude. It'll spin up. I'll I'll show everyone how to kinda spin up a prototype so that they have something tangible to communicate to to stakeholders or run user interviews with.
Tyler:Like, it looks pretty darn decent. Okay. The gaps obviously are with the things that designers would do, which is, like, poke into the edge cases. Does this make sense? Does this component exist in the design system?
Tyler:That part is missing, obviously, but it can hallucinate or make it seem like it's it's done. But obviously it doesn't.
Nick:Yeah. You know, it it it does makes make me itchy in a in a way, I have to admit, because, you know, like the the the the remark from Iman that we just mentioned in the beginning. Like, if a PM comes to you with a concept or some sort of prototype, it does you know, they I think you have multiple problems there. They expect you to just clean it up and do it. Some of, you know, a more, you know, balanced down towards PM might understand, like, no.
Nick:No. This is just a, you know, a suggestion. A designer is a pro, so let's just a designer do with this concept what they will or maybe anything. But some of them will be like, why didn't they just clean this thing up? And then as a designer, you're on this path of just thinking about, okay, I have this concept.
Nick:What if we tweak it slightly to the left or slightly to the right? It's very challenging to then zoom out again and be like, let's try a completely new concept. But I also feel like it reduces the designer's role, at least the junior or media level designer's role. Like, here's the concept. We already thought about everything.
Nick:It's validated. You know, they claim it's validated. We don't know. We just have to believe them. And then it's just like, hey.
Nick:Just, you know, rearrange a few pixels and you're done. You had to be very strong politically, you know, business politics wise to stand above that and and, you know, fight the the higher level battle, I think. You know, that's what I'm Yeah. I'm getting from what you're saying and and connected to what I see on on Reddit, for example. You know, lots of designers are just depressed.
Nick:They don't want to do this. And I I can understand a little bit more why, you know, for you and I, you know, super senior designers, ten years years plus on the job, like, we're we're doing all the PM talking, I think, all the strategy stuff. So we're not hit by it by it as much. Yeah. I think junior level designer is,
Tyler:you know, frustrated at this at this stage, I think. I mean, that's a fair point. Like, I'll if anything like that came to me, like, I like no bullshit. I'll push I'll push back. Like, congrats.
Tyler:You've created a Vibe Critney thing, and I think it's great, but, like, I need to do my part of the job. I would need to you've kind of narrowed in on on one piece of the puzzle. Like, we've got to we've got to kind of explore different directions. It's like, we create you validated an idea, but, like, as a designer, you should just whatever the the PM in this example has you, you can essentially throw into the into the garbage because you gotta do your exploration, make sure that you're you're doing your job. I I understand that, like, a junior would have a harder time, but, like, this is I think a backbone is definitely needed
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:Now when these workflows are changing.
Nick:I think so. I think and I think that's been the challenge for anyone fresh out of school. Like, learn to do things a certain way, and then you get pushback for the first time in the real world from someone who's not there to help you get better, you know? Teacher, like in school. I mean, that's tough for anyone.
Nick:You know, when I I remember when I did my very first project ten, eleven years ago of my first job, I got pushed back and I was like, yes, of course, you're right. Let's you you're completely right. Let's just change it. Let's do it your way. It took me many years to learn, like, wait a minute.
Nick:I can say no, not because I'm stubborn, but no because of these reasons we thought about very clearly, you know. So I think that's that's, you know, that's challenging for anyone. What I'm seeing, by the way, on my second screen is that we are getting a bit of pushback on our I don't wireframe anymore. So I think we should, you know, should talk about it a little bit more. Yep.
Nick:Plus, yes, full of people blocking each other when you have a different opinion. I don't want to be that way. So looking over to the second screen, Keely, I hope I say it right, says, saying there's no reason to wireframe now is like saying there's no reason to make an architectural blueprint. Just skip straight into interior design mock ups. Not say not saying that they make sense on every project, but they certainly have a place as any early tool for thinking through layouts without getting stuck on specific design details.
Tyler:I'm double I'm doubling down. I've I've I've killed the wireframes in in like, I respectfully, I I disagree. I think wireframe has their had their place. I'm an efficiency guy, so, I won't even I I won't even draw something on, a piece of paper on my desk unless unless it can be easily translated to a thing. I think you can still do the same validation steps that a wireframe was useful for when you're prototype or line coding a thing.
Tyler:It's just about being strict in your exploration. Like I said before, like, creating a vibe, putting thing, it's very happy path, and you can be very because it gets to high fidelity rather quickly, you can be consumed or kind of married or in fall in love with that direction where you should be going double diamond. You should wing wide until you narrow in on on on experience. Like, the the ability to replicate, like, a a product and they click around and experience it is the validation set. The wireframe piece, it's just about, here's a box there.
Tyler:Here here's how this might go together. There's a lot of, like, imagination that has to happen to interpret the app, like, the the idea of the concept that, like, that a prototype just does, like, immediately. Yeah. What are your thoughts there?
Nick:I I I think it's really hits the that that that feeling I had for a while that I wasn't able to put into words as much. But I I think I'm getting closer now. So I think that question in the chat was just now was very useful and your comments also. Because if you zoom out and leave out tools, you know, we're talking about should it be Figma or Figma make or wireframes or high fidelity, Like, if you really zoom out, we should explore first. Right?
Nick:Like, we have a certain problem to solve. And I think the reason to wireframe is to, you know, to prevent ourselves from going too much into solution mode right away. You know? Because when it's high fidelity, it's like, okay. Well, you know, like I said before, why should this be purple?
Nick:Why should this be green? Hey. That's rounded. Hey. That doesn't work that way.
Nick:Why shadow? You know, and then if it's a wireframe, in my experience, many people say like, well, you know, it doesn't really speak to me. It doesn't feel alive. And then they want something high fidelity anyway, but that's, you know, that's a side note. I think you should go wide in the beginning.
Nick:Yeah. Conceptual width, I think is what you should say should say. Mhmm. Explore many different ideas. And I don't really care if it's, you know, a five coded prototype, five of them or six or six different wireframes.
Nick:Regardless of the tools you use, it requires training and a lot of skill to be able to work on one concept, completely move to the side, and explore something new and be really critical about your own work. I think that's a design skill that no five coding product manager can take away from you until unless they do it full time, the whole time. Yeah. So I I think we are fighting each other over tools we use. You know why Yeah.
Nick:For just not wireframe vibe versus no vibe. It doesn't matter as a designer for the past forty years, fifty years maybe. Yeah. Or first step is to go wide. Try different things based on the understanding that you have at that moment from users, clients, data, whatever.
Nick:Agreed.
Tyler:I think it's tying into a comment by here. I like correct in understanding that if wireframes are losing ground, I need to put my time into getting skills in vibe coding slash prompting? Well,
Nick:I mean, that's a tough question. I think many, you know, stakeholders, your managers, they want you to. Many people on social media want you to, but what I would recommend you is to just to learn how to explore. For me, like, I'm I feel pretty quick in Figma, myself. Mhmm.
Nick:But I also have my, you know, pen and paper lying around here, you know, for just a quick literal sketch. The tools you use are just a way to get help you get hired, I think. You know, if you look at job opening requirements, be proficient with FigmaMake, well, yeah, then, of course, you should be able to have some skill there, but I think really zoomed out, you should be skilled in exploration regardless of the the how. Yeah. I agree.
Nick:And I think I think all these tools in five coding, yes, no.
Tyler:I think what what I'm noticing, and I think we've talked about this before, is that it's putting more weight into not the creation part. So, like, say, creating whether you create a wire a wireframe, create a prototype, etcetera, etcetera, Whatever debts you need to do to get to the end of a ship a ship thing or or PR, I don't think it really matters. I think that is became that is becoming commoditized. What has not is the discovery part. It's the validation of ideas.
Tyler:It's the conversations between stakeholders, the alignment of teams. I think that is that is like I've always said, is the input that is required. Like, the quality of that input dictates the quality of the output on the other end. So I think that is becoming more that that is where I am spending more time. So, like, historically, I've said I was seventy thirty discovery to design.
Tyler:I'm probably 90 discovery now just because it is we've freed up time to focus on the discovery part, which is more and more important.
Nick:Yeah. That's true. That's true. Keep those questions coming, by the way. I think this is a lot of fun.
Nick:Maybe maybe it's fun to, you know, to talk zoomed out about you know, one one of my my favorite projects ongoing still about how we go from figuring out, like, we should change something to it being live and then all the steps that I take to get there and where AI lives, you know, in that flow. Please walk me through it. Yeah. Because it's it's very it's very modern, if I'm allowed to say so, because all these guys, all the desks, very they are they they are very AI interested, AI I won't say AI AI native because it's such a buzzword. You know, it doesn't mean anything.
Nick:But they use AI a lot. The quality is high, so it's it's they give me a lot of comments about their vibe code stuff that I send over. You know? So they they have a high bar. Anyway, I have a list of things to do.
Nick:I'm in control of that list. Mostly, like, whenever I run into something that I say, like, hey. That that's not right. I should change this. Could be a comment from a user or just something I figure out or run into while, you know, opening or going through the the product, I put on that list because, you know, you you cannot just do anything right away.
Nick:Right? You're working on something. You discover something new. It goes on the dreaded backlog. Once a week, you know, we start we look at we talk about in progress stuff, things that are coming up.
Nick:I pick a thing that I think is important and that we all think is important. We either know what we want or it needs exploration. That's something we have to agree on. You know, we being the developers on my team and myself and, you know, stakeholder, that's it's relevant for that that moment. Yeah.
Nick:If we know what we want to do, for example, it's just we saw that a drop down menu, it's inconsistent in one place compared to another place, it requires us figuring out, like, hey. Why is that in code? Like, aren't they used to share aren't they using a shared component? Like, we know we should fix that. And it's a quick fix.
Nick:I go into code. I have, as you know, a bit of coding background plus clause code together. You know, I can figure that out. I can fix that. What was the most challenging bit for me was to get the developer's mindset, you know, not reusing code.
Nick:Do not repeat your self, reuse certain things, keep coding files nice and small, have components, that kind of stuff. That's the whole learning process if you are a designer going into code, something I wanted to say. I make the changes, I create a PR, I have a Loom recording where I show, like, this is before, this is after, This is why I did it. Please review. And then I go through the comments or it's agreed and it moves in.
Nick:So that's the easy quick route. You know, if that's the Yep. We know what we want, we're just going to do it. AI plays a role there, and it's changed because of AI. You know?
Nick:The when you see something on social media where, like, designers can code now, this is an example of that. This is something I'm doing now that I didn't do three or four years ago. Just spotting something that's wrong. You know, five years ago, would, you know, go to a developer, tell them, like, hey. That's not right.
Nick:And you show them a Figma design, and hopefully, can figure it out half the time and the energy for you to fix that. But now I go in and I do it myself. Right? Second path is we don't know what to do. At that point, you go exploring wireframing, vibe coding, figma ing.
Nick:That's a a verb. Just a few things. I go very yeah. Well, that's something we coined just now. I go very wide.
Nick:I try different things. And then later on in the week when I think I have enough, could be the next day or two days depending on the complexity, I arrange a meeting with all the people from that first moment in the week. Like, hey, let's sit down together. This is what I have. These are these are the three, I think, for these reasons.
Nick:Here are the pros and cons. What do you think? And then we have a discussion for an hour. You know, it's the narrowing it down of the the broad starting point. You know?
Nick:The fun thing is lots of developers are there, so they say, well, did you think about this edge case? Like, what if the user input is very long? You know? Like, oh, I didn't think about it. Let me go and fix that on the spot, you know, live work shopping, or I think it's more complex.
Nick:Let me get back to you. And then there's also like a business person there who's like, well, you know, let's just ship it and improve it later, you know, and that's that's something that makes a designer go a bit sick, you know, let's just ship it. That's something we can talk about later. You know, for you as a designer at that moment, it's important to make sure you write down the follow-up and then get the second version out later. We continue, if you're feeling stuck in your design career or if you feel like you're doing solid work while no one really notices, we've got a bunch of extra stuff on our website.
Tyler:We're building a community for product designers to actually learn, grow,
Tyler:and get hired, not just scroll and collect more inspiration.
Nick:There's also articles, checklists, and courses.
Tyler:All based on real world experience from both
Nick:of us.
Tyler:No fluff, just what actually works.
Nick:Check out designtablepodcast.com. The link is in the description. I I go a bit sideways now with, you know, design, bring it back together, fine tune if we have the direction, then we go into the the building part. So that's what I just said. And but then depending on the complexity, a quote unquote real developer builds it, or if it's simple enough, I go and build it, and then you have the whole PR stuff again.
Tyler:How do you know so question that, how do you know Yeah. What's how do you know who should build it, whether you have the capability of building it? Is it like during those discovery sessions? Like how do you determine who's gonna actually build it, you or the or or more senior developer?
Nick:That usually happens at the end of the of the session. You know? We have a dedicated design session, and when I say design session, it means I am in the driver's seat, and I I make up the the agenda of the day. Like, I have topics that I want to discuss. And the outcome of the topic should be a clear next step.
Nick:Either we don't still don't know, Nick, go design something better, or this is good. Let's fine tune and build it. And part of it is discovering or figuring out who should do it. For example, there is you you have just your dashboard. We wanted to display a client logo at the top.
Nick:Yeah. That's something I'm doing. It's not that complex. We already have logo upload somewhere else. It's just picking the logo and displaying it somewhere else.
Nick:But then there's also we found out that you have when you have two social media login buttons, you know, Google, Facebook. When you log in with Google, you can have an error. You know, something goes wrong Right. Puts the error underneath the button, but not across the full width. And that's because the component was set up to have two containers, a Google container and a Facebook container.
Nick:It puts the error in the container of the button, you know, clear anyway, any designer will tell you it should be the full width across both buttons. It looks Yeah. That means refactoring the entire social login component with all edge cases, all warnings, everything that can go wrong. It's a lot of work. It's not as simple as let's make the container wider.
Nick:Let's just take out the error message and just put it there. You know? So that's something where I already know, like, okay. I don't have the confidence to do it because I know I don't have the skill to do it. It's better for the super senior back end developer to take a look at it.
Nick:You know? So it's a bit of gut feeling, but also more experienced developers telling you, like, I think this is really complex. The other guy should do it. Fair.
Tyler:It's like teamwork, like you're collaborating. So
Nick:yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So really summarized, it's really, you know, together with people, we build a list of things to do. We sort it based on what to do first in any given week.
Nick:We go wide, we review, and then we decide if we need another run or it's ready to be built. And then when it's live, you know, we have constant customer feedback loops and data and AB testing and all that kind of stuff going on. Thanks for listening to my TED Talk.
Tyler:Your validation check is a combination of, like, analytics, user, maybe emails, or in app notifications, surveys, etcetera, etcetera, to make sure that you've you've nailed it.
Nick:What Everyone should go to a demo call once a month. It doesn't matter if you are a product manager or designer or developer. It's good for you to be on a call with someone who's paying for your products, and they are angry and frustrated and telling you why why can we just do this thing? You know? It's it's good to see their frustration or their happiness when they're when they're very happy and just want to do more.
Nick:You know? So we all have because we've been there for a while, we all have that context, and we all have enough of a gut feeling to see that that we you never know for sure. And I'm and I know I'm going against what we learn in school and what we designers really want to do, but we have enough context that the the odds of us being right are higher compared to just randomly doing something. So we know like, spoke we to so many users. We know they are a bit older.
Nick:They're not as tech savvy. Look at at this super cool hover interaction that we have. They're not going to get it. That's just not gonna try. Yeah.
Nick:You know? Why spend all this time building it while we already know that they are not tech savvy enough to get this? You know? That kind of stuff happens a lot. And then we also do stuff like Maze where we have, you know, panel.
Nick:Unmoderated.
Tyler:The unmoderated. Yeah. And then
Nick:we mix the recording sessions, and we have mix panel for AB testing where you can see, like, oh, this was a 2% increase. Oh, that's nice, you know, that kind of stuff. So it's gut feeling plus experience plus data plus opinions.
Tyler:You are I think the, like, the session recordings are, like, the most valuable nuggets that you can have. Like, it's what users say they want and what they actually do are two different things. And I think the session recordings, even though you'll you'll get to speak to them, I feel like I love watching those sessions because I can kinda feel sometimes frustrations by, like, how they're moving their cursor or navigating the app. Like, those are really good to kinda take a look at. Like, how are people interacting with the the feature that you just launched, and are they because you can kind of depending on what tool you're using, like, was it Datadog or or whatever it is, you can just watch them navigate.
Tyler:Like, I'll filter down people who've used this feature and they get to see them navigate past it. Like, I didn't know that that's what they were that's what their goal was, etcetera, etcetera. Those are like those are just my favorite feedback loops to look at.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I I mean, that's it's yeah. I don't I have no comments.
Nick:I have no comments there. Yeah. So, I mean, may maybe you should should bring it back to the to the main topic, know, the modern designers workflow is what I think we call this. Know? Yep.
Nick:I think the the exploration plus feedback plus comments plus, you know, that circle, I think that's been the way we should design forever. You know, I remember the days where, like, as long as I've been a designer, we've been struggling to sell our way of working to the world. And at first it was, no, we are not web designers. We are UX designers. And now it's and then it became, no, we are product designers.
Nick:No, we are service designers. And now it's, no, no, no. You still need a human in the loop. AI, you know, it's nice, but no. You know, that kind we always have the no but, that that battle to to sell our worth.
Nick:This feels like just another instance for me of the same battle.
Tyler:Yeah. I think, yeah, I think the way we're working changes, what we have to do is the same, like, the human in the loop. I think we're more like, I think we're moving back I think what we're doing is moving back to the generalist concept, but, like, across the board. I think what we're doing now is regardless of, like, what pod or, like, vertical you sit in, I think what we're trying to do, what everyone should be doing is helping the business move forward. And by consequence, helping the the users, I don't think who uses what tool, who comes with my idea, who validates it matters, really.
Tyler:I mean, we all do our, like, our our schooling or, like, our certification. So, like, we're good at this one thing, but I think the the breadth of what we what we do is has just been enhanced, I guess, with the tools that we have.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. True. I mean, I mean, that's perhaps the the the big thing. You know, AI makes us way quicker, but I also think it makes us sloppier.
Nick:You know, it's it's not a pun for AI slop, but, you know, if you can just generate anything, you know, it
Tyler:Yeah. It gets messy. I was talking with my CTO about like now like now that everyone is cloud enabled, like what is the consequence? And then one of those consequences is obviously the error rate has increased because the velocity has increased. We're creating so much more code.
Tyler:It's hard
Nick:to quality check it. Yeah.
Tyler:And then I think I think it's the human in the loop is the important piece. I think it's important. Like, if it's if a task used to take you four hours and that you can do it in twenty minutes, just be aware that it could have taken that four hours. So, like, if it takes you twenty minutes, take another half an hour to an hour to validate that it did its job and that it's perfect instead of, like, okay. I did it's finished in twenty minutes.
Tyler:Let me just, like, slack off and do something else. Like Yeah. Be aware that you have a buffer. Like, it used to take you this long. Now it takes you shorter, but then increase the the quality assurance check-in in the stuff that you're creating so that you're increasing the velocity with quality at the same time.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I I I think that's you know, I I enjoyed crafting. You know, I'm I'm not going to use the craft and taste buzzword here in that way, but in and around the house as well. You know, I, like, I I put in floors and paint and and and build stuff.
Nick:I I really enjoy it. And so what's really struggling for me, what I struggle with myself is you're giving things away while I enjoy really zooming in and making sure that things align well, you know, so that the profession, like the the craftsman, the designer, like, I want that to stay. Yep. Yeah. So Sticking well.
Nick:Yeah. When when you talk about quality, like, I think that's really important. I'm I'm doing a course now where it's really all about you know, it's it's for people who really care. I think that's the the tagline. And they talk a lot about, you know, being having this perception of where you're looking at.
Nick:Let's say you go to a flow and you're like, hey. This doesn't feel right. Why doesn't it feel right? Having the skill to really look back and see, like, oh, that's probably this thing over here and really caring about it and making sure it's better. Like, I think that's the best part of design.
Nick:And I really wish I really hope that's going to stay. I'm at least going to find clients who care as much as I do, I and think that's perhaps the fun part of being a freelancer, you know, because I really feel for people in jobs who are forced to use AI in a way that they don't want to. You know? I mean, that's really sad, I think.
Tyler:Yeah. I think designers are safe in that aspect. I think there is, like, to your to your point, zooming in on the details. I think that is still that can't be automated away. I haven't figured out I've I've talked about this before.
Tyler:I haven't figured out a way to automate creating a high fidelity design that's kind of has taste, has the right spacing, etcetera. You can recreate, you can reuse components, and stitch stuff together, but actually create something new that's experiential. You you you need to kind of whether it's, whatever, Figma or or whatever the new Figma is gonna be eventually. Whatever tool that is, that's still required. There's no AI tool that automate that piece, I don't think.
Tyler:No. Conversely to, like, maybe engineering where maybe the there's a like, that piece can be automated and you're more like the arc the architect or the orchestrator. What's being lost there, I'm saying, is the the challenge is being removed. It is no longer hard to create a thing. The challenge was and I'm going back to my days when I used to be more developer heavy, like, in the actual code hand coding things.
Tyler:It's it's the challenge of figuring out this problem of how to implement this thing where now you can solve anything. It's just about now it's now it's a volume game versus a well, versus, like, a problem solving game. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense.
Tyler:Problem solving is a lot of fun.
Nick:Yeah. I you know, looking at a few more comments, just seeing that, know, we got a lot of pushback on the wireframing, and then we talked about it some more. And then we got a completely agree comment back. So I I think, you know, we we're finding a middle ground there. Keely also mentioned that if you are an experienced designer with a strong design system, slapping the styles on top of that wireframe is the easy part.
Nick:I think that makes sense. You know?
Tyler:Yes. Well, is it the idea that, like, once you have a wireframe just applying, like, the aesthetic or the UI UI stream on top is the easy part?
Nick:I I I think so. Yeah. I mean, it it it makes us go a little bit in circles, think, where you have to first figure out, like, what's a wireframe, you know, because a wireframe can be just blocks with placeholder text, but it can also be a black and white version of a iFidelity thing. You know? So I think that's a whole new rabbit hole to fall into.
Nick:Let's see what else because I saw a few more things. Yes. Say something more. Okay. No.
Nick:Let's go for it. You know, if if anyone has any extra questions, just keep putting them in. I'm looking at LinkedIn now, and I see 20 plus comments. So, I mean, that's a good experiment that we're having here. I think I saw Iman saying that she is learning to or going to school to become a design engineer, and I think that's really cool.
Nick:It's a safer yeah. Advice that I can give as someone who's trying to be one as well is that having a developer's mindset plus a designer's skill makes a lot of sense. Developers really think in a way of I'm changing this thing here, but does it also break things somewhere else? Like, you can change a button in one place, but if it means it's a shared component used in so many more different places, You really have to think all of that through and also become proficient in things like GitHub commits, playwright testing, PRs. Yeah.
Nick:I'm It would give you codes, the kind of stuff like we often forget it because we're like, well, well, we can design things. We can now vibe code it together. Yeah. But there's a big workflow that happens after building the thing, you know, the whole GitHub stuff. So learn that too.
Nick:I think it will really increase your odds of becoming a design engineer and getting a job as a design engineer.
Tyler:Yeah. I agree. I'm I'm learning that lesson now. So I'm I'm trying to enable all the designers on my team to use GitHub. So we've we've essentially been pushing our prototyping.
Tyler:So, basically, what we've been doing so far is basically creating things in Figuremake or downloading creating them locally and then hosting them on, like, a company URL. But we are pushing them to a level where it's basically recreating the app. Now what's happening is that what we're creating is is if the idea is valid, we're basically throwing away that code because it's useless. It's not anchored until, like, anything real. Yeah.
Tyler:So I'm doing a POC this week to see how, like, what might the workflow be for a designer to kind of launch something in a sandbox environment. So, basically, in GitHub, but, like, behind maybe, like, a user or, like, a feature flag
Nick:Okay.
Tyler:To create these POCs there. And what I've noticed is that, like, I'd had to I had to lean heavily into the engineering team to, like, figure out how to do this properly because if I would vibe code traditionally, the output is it's trying to it recreates a thing versus reusing a component here, reusing the same shell. It it really tries to, like, get stuff done versus doing stuff properly, which is, like, using the right button, using the right table. That I'm I'm coming that I'm coming to a bit of friction. So there's, like, the creation of, like, workflow MD files, etcetera, etcetera to make through and these rules.
Tyler:And then I'm glad also that it's everything is behind APR because the engineering team needs to really validate that what we're shipping is good, which is a good kind of line in the sand because, like, we have to learn all those things on our route to become more proficient design engineers.
Nick:Yeah. True. Yeah. I think that's the the reality slapping you in the face. Like, you know, it's it has to connect to something, and that's way harder than what social media tells you.
Nick:So it's not to to to say that you shouldn't try because it's a lot of fun and very future proof, but that's just a bit of advice that will hopefully save you a few moments of falling on your face. I also saw Melanie. She looks like she's in The Netherlands just like me. She mentions or she links to one of her posts where she says that she also gets a lot of her yeah. It looks like she's freelancing.
Nick:A lot of her clients are also sending over generated things. Like, hey. This is what I want. And then she says that you still need the person there to make it better, and she says cloth thinks so too, which I think is a fun comment about, you know, these AI tools always agreeing with you.
Tyler:Yeah. I agree. Like, there's still this like, we're gonna like, to my earlier point, our backbone, especially junior designers, like, the backbone has to get a bit stronger because at the end, like, this has become, in my point of view, like, a great communication technique from, like, client to product person, whether it's design, etcetera, but we still need to do our job. Like Mhmm. It's very it's very easy to get, like, your blinder on.
Tyler:It's like, okay. This is what I'm gonna implement. Let's implement it. But, like, you are you are not implementing the correct thing because you still need to map out the edge cases, see if this is the right thing. And, like, end end of the day, like, a thing that's being shipped over to you, we could kill it.
Tyler:There's value in not shipping a thing because it's gonna create some tech debt, and it's not the right thing. It's adding bloat or adding to a terrible experience within your app.
Nick:Yeah. Oh, yeah. For sure. And things break. And it's all fun and games until you realize that you have a thousand plus paying customers, and if something breaks, they leave, they sue, they Yeah.
Nick:Talk bad about you, your you you might just lose your job and or more. Thiepul is asking a question. What I'm not really sure I understand, so if you're still listening, please, you know, please tell us more. But what I'm reading here is do you think developers are saying or staying in their corner? Let's think like designer.
Nick:I'm afraid I will crash and burn. Maybe that's about jobs getting job jobs are getting blurry?
Tyler:Yeah. I'm seeing that. Like, the the the product engineer is becoming a thing as well. So, like, they're not necessarily that they're doing design. They could.
Tyler:It's probably actually just a design engineer. But I think, like, that business or product lens is is where I'm seeing things go as well. But again, I don't think it matters.
Nick:Yeah. That's true. I think I I I I think just like I just said, like, designers need to learn the developer's mindset. I think the other way around that works too, and that's why designers are safe and developers are safe. I think you will always be you know, a design engineer is a designer with a bit of development skill while it and then the other way around, you're a developer with a bit of design skill unless you decide to fully go into it, you know, because I have I worked together with so many developers and they always get stuck at a point where they're like, I made this thing.
Nick:It's better, but it looks terrible. I don't know what to do. A designer should look at this. You know, they always get stuck The same way I get stuck, like, this looks like Spaghetti Coat to me. It works, but I feel it should be more efficient.
Nick:But I don't know how. Let's get a developer. You know, it can only get so blurry until you need an actual designer or developer. You know, if people is is afraid of crashing and burning, like I recommended to one of my mentees, someone I'm coaching just, I think, two weeks ago, take a break. You know?
Nick:Go do something fun for a week because it's not so your career is supposed to be fun. It's not something you should crash and burn over. You know? If you feel like that's happening, it's an early warning sign and reset and recover before it's too late. That's just something I want to say without knowing your exact background because that's important.
Tyler:Yeah. I think it's happening more and more now. Like, we are in velocity mode. There is no breaks. There's only go.
Tyler:Yeah. I think True. One I think one more comment, I think we can wrap up. Yeah. There, I have a comment here from Iman.
Tyler:I recently completed a project with Arduino and GitHub. Feels like the reality that product design connects to everything, and we need to converse and diverse the amount of tools to progress.
Nick:Mhmm. Yeah. I think yeah. Makes sense. I mean, you you know, Photoshop you almost had Photoshop.
Nick:Like, everyone's in Photoshop, and then you had Sketch. Everyone was in Sketch. Everyone on the Mac was in Sketch, and then everyone was in Figma. You know? And now it feels like everyone's, well, everyone, there there's no clear next Figma yet.
Nick:Mhmm. And I see a lot of people switching models. Like, oh, this new Codex version is way better than Cloud. Let's switch. And then the week after, you have Cloud Opus four point x, and then they're all back.
Nick:You know, it's we have to wait and see what becomes the next the next Figma. Yeah. But I I still use Figma a lot, you know, for Canvas stuff and, you know, exploring. Same. And I'm I mean, you know me.
Nick:Some of the people listening now, they might be new, but I am very minimalistic. Like, I use Figma and I have Cloth, and I'm not switching tools at all because I just think it's a distraction Yeah. Until I until I see a clear winner. Like, if if everyone's talking about this new tool and everyone's using it and all my clients want me to use it, that's a signal for me to switch. But my doc on my Mac is very empty.
Nick:You know, it's it gives me focus and peace of mind.
Tyler:There you should see my workflow. It is not it is not the same. I go for I have my workflow is Chativaji to Claude to Cursor to push to GitHub. It is very convoluted just because I think Chativaji is good at creating prompts or doing research. Claude is better at at strategizing design, and then Cursor is better at implementation of a cursor of a Claude's suggestion.
Tyler:Something I discovered this week.
Nick:Yeah. Well, I mean, we're learning all the time, and that that makes it fun still. So, you know, there's a downside to sticking to your tools also. The very little bit of pushback that I can give there is when people say, when you say, well, it's better doing this thing. I'm going to put my gamer hat back know, like, when you play a a video game, you know, you have skill levels, let's say, one to 10.
Nick:And let's say I think you said, like, prompting. Like, it's better in prompting. Right? So let's say Chad GPT is an eight out of 10 and Claud is a seven out of 10, you know, then Chad GPT is better. But do you do you need the eight out of 10?
Nick:Like, are you working on something so complex that only an eight plus will do? Like, you probably need a six plus, and then Claude is fine too. Yeah. You know? So that's something you have to ask yourself, like, critical is the thing I'm doing?
Nick:How much effort and detail do I need to put in? And that efficiency battle is something you have to consider as well because it might save you a bit of switching and a bit of I have so many tools overwhelmedness.
Tyler:That's Yeah. New effort I just invented. That's fair. Like, if you're reducing your tools, I think better. I think just it's about like going wide, experimenting, see what works best.
Tyler:Yeah. And then you can narrow on your on your very few. Yeah. I mean,
Nick:I use Cloth also to search stuff online. You know? So my Cloth exists partially of work stuff. And then about, oh, I saw this old building down the street, like, who made it? That kind of stuff.
Nick:You know? So it's work and private all in one, because I just don't want to have all the apps.
Tyler:Yeah. I'm with you. Yeah. It's getting a bit a bit glorious.
Nick:It's it's my my my stubborn, down to earth Dutchness, I think. You know? That's just too normal. With you. Yeah.
Nick:So for our remaining listeners, I think you have
Tyler:a gift for them. I figured I'd pass the baton to you, but I just wanna yeah. But I I just wanna thank everyone for kinda joining our first experiment live for the seven remaining listeners that are that are that are still watching. I haven't checked Yeah. X or or Twitter yet.
Tyler:But if we if you guys love this kind of thing,
Nick:I think we might do this a bit more, maybe once a month, every other month just to connect to people. Yeah. I mean, we have 30 comments, four reposts, you know, and a lot of questions answered, hopefully. You know? So I think this is for a small new little podcast show that we have.
Nick:I think this is, you know, quite good. Right? I mean, we're not we are not big influencers with 100 k plus followers that get, you know, four digits of listeners right
Tyler:away from the first episode. Humble but nimble.
Nick:Yeah. True. You know? I mean, talking about the gift that you're having, like, we we run community where we have moments like this every month. Right?
Nick:They sync also. You know, ask your question. We share our view. We help. We share what we see in the trenches.
Nick:And we are designing every day for clients across the world. You know? So come join us. We have a discount code, life 20% off. That's forever, not just the first bid.
Nick:That's just forever. And we also do a design career audit, you know, so that's for people who are stuck in their career, you know, like we saw in the comments. I'm crashing. I'm burning. Help.
Nick:Should I do this? How do I become a design engineer? You get more of this from Tyler and myself. Also, live 20 for the discount. I think we will put a comment somewhere with a link.
Nick:Come join us because we really enjoy helping people and giving back. So that's our little gift gift to you guys. And Yeah. That's it. Right?
Nick:Did I ever forget anything? I don't think so.
Tyler:Yeah. So, like, all those products and, like like, those offers are on designtablepodcast.com.
Nick:We'll probably link to this I think
Tyler:it is. /learn. Perfect.
Nick:Let me just put it in in the comments.
Tyler:You know, I mean, that's It's in the chat.
Nick:I think yeah. I mean, I think that's part of the charm of our show is that we have, you know, we are very real and behind the scenes, you know, we are just like, hey, let's just put it in. Okay, you know, we're not cutting that out, you know, so I think that's fun. And love these live interactions. Come on.
Nick:Sorry, one more time? I said I love this interaction. It's great. Yeah. I think so.
Nick:Yeah. It sounds like it's
Tyler:a good dive into, like, the way we work, different perspectives in house freelance. I think it was a great discussion and a great kind of pivot to a live variation of our podcast. So I'm excited to have this one. The perception that we've gotten so far, and also when we launch this on our on our YouTube channel as well.
Nick:Yeah. I I want to do this more often. I think this is a lot of fun with having people, you know, just there and being able to call us out on our wireframe nonsense and our strange views.
Tyler:Yeah. And then if you wanna keep up with anything Design Table related, you can sign up to our newsletter as well on our website as well.
Nick:Yep. Yep. Alright. See you next time. See you next time.
Tyler:Alright. That's another episode in the bag.
Nick:Yeah. Great episode. By the way, if you're stuck second guessing your work or trying to figure out your next move, drop a question in the comments or leave a review. We might actually feature you in one of our future episodes.
Tyler:And if you got any value from this episode, hit subscribe wherever you're listening. It helps more than you think.
Nick:You can can find everything else, resources, articles, and more at designtablepodcast.com.
Tyler:Thanks for being here.
Nick:See you next time.