Men of Faith

What is Men of Faith?

Welcome to the Men of Faith podcast where we’re dedicated to calling men up, not out, to live a life dedicated to our God.

This is more than just a podcast, it’s a community and a brotherhood. In each episode, we'll explore topics that touch the core of our spiritual and daily lives—from the sacred bonds of marriage and the joys and trials of parenthood, to practical advice on health, fitness, and managing our finances wisely.

Our journey begins now and we want you with us, so please subscribe on your favorite listening platform.

Resources:
Learn more about Project Church: https://projectchurch.com/
Connect with Project Church on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/projectchurchsac

Shaun Gartman:

We as as fathers, there's times where our kids will ask us something, and and we're we're in that place. Like, do you think I don't? Yeah. You know? And so one of the bigger shifts comes from I think a lot of us struggle with the who am I question, you know?

Shaun Gartman:

And I I think who am I should be the derivative of understanding whose am I.

Caleb Cole:

You're listening to Men of Faith, the podcast dedicated to calling men up and not out. Join me as we live a life dedicated to our God. Welcome back to the Men of Faith podcast. I'm your host, Caleb Cole. I'm here with my cohost here in season two and season one.

Caleb Cole:

Brandon Miller is here.

Brandon Miller:

What's up, Brandon?

Caleb Cole:

Brandon, you're looking good. I actually just really love your blue pants today.

Brandon Miller:

I appreciate that.

Caleb Cole:

I wanna make sure those are on camera, though.

Brandon Miller:

Those are for you. Those are for you. I'm digging. Golf vibes.

Caleb Cole:

Yeah. You you definitely have it today. We have a guest with us today. This is Sean Gartman. Sean, I've actually known you.

Caleb Cole:

We go back a ways. Brandon and you, I know, go back a ways, but, talk to the men of faith about who you are, kinda what you do. Give some context for why you're even on here today.

Shaun Gartman:

Well, I, you know, I have business wise, I have been, in the computer industry, for thirty years. So I have a company called Cornerstone Technology. And, but, in 2014, I followed what the Lord was leading, and I, I went into the concessions and created a company called Pop It Forward. And, and we were teaching people to be sustainable, through concessions. And so we were coming alongside of nonprofits.

Shaun Gartman:

We started with YWAM, actually, and, we're teaching them how to be sustainable using concessions to do it. And now I have a food trailer called Carnival Food Trailer right here in Sacramento, and it's been nominated two years in a row as the best food truck in Sacramento.

Caleb Cole:

I didn't know this until you told me this morning, but

Shaun Gartman:

There it is.

Caleb Cole:

Congratulations. Thank you. So we wanna talk today about mental health. And so I would like, before we jump in there, obviously mental health is a great issue right now in our culture

Shaun Gartman:

Yeah.

Caleb Cole:

Among men, and it's something that we really haven't talked about, Brandon. Mean, we've alluded to it with Mhmm. Obviously hitting other topics that all tie into our mental health, but having one episode dedicated to it, I think, is important. And so I do wanna hear a little bit about ministry too, because Sean, obviously, that's what you do, like, business wise, probably how you make your money, but I know you've done a lot of ministry through the years. Yeah.

Caleb Cole:

And it's why we wanted to have you on for this topic.

Shaun Gartman:

Come

Caleb Cole:

on. Talk a little bit about ministry and what you've done and what you're doing now.

Shaun Gartman:

Yeah. So about six years ago, I came across a miner ministry called Encounter. And, at this moment, the NorCal Encounter portion is really just reaching into men. But when you reach the man, you reach the marriage, you reach the family, it's a it's a radical shift for them. And so we you know, one of the big things that we find, especially in encounter, is helping, men who are trying to figure out how they fit, who they are, to to land in their identity as a son.

Shaun Gartman:

Yeah. And so that is our core thing to help them settle in their identity for who they are in Christ. And it creates a radical transformation all the way through their family.

Caleb Cole:

And so this is a program that you do or how would you define it?

Shaun Gartman:

It's a parachurch ministry that invites it's incredibly ecumenical. Almost all of the encounters we have with sixty, seventy guys, represents a huge, portion of the body of Christ all the way from Catholics all the way to the the Charismatics, so it reaches across

Caleb Cole:

all of them. Yeah, all lines. So Brandon, I know that you and Sean go back and you wanted to have him on today. I mean, I knew Sean, but Brandon was like, hey, why don't we have Sean Gartman on my own? That'd be great.

Caleb Cole:

So talk to me about kinda why and and what your guys' connection has been.

Brandon Miller:

Yeah, Sean and I met in 2014, actually. We were in a business group together, and Sean being very outspoken about his faith and getting to to connect on that level together, we we would start having lunch. And when I would go to lunch with Sean, it was not a single lunch that went by as Sean didn't have some kind of encouraging words, some something from the scripture, something that God had put on his heart that I would walk away and tell people that I work with. Yet, I went to lunch with Sean today. They would just start knowing, like, Sean.

Brandon Miller:

Like, who's the guy Sean? And so I I I was invited to encounter the ministry he's talking about. And then another ministry, Sean's a part of, Sacramento Christian Healing Ministry Yeah. And invited to participate and to, engage with that. And so on both accounts, Sean, has been a a significant part of my own mental health spiritual health, I would say, before mental, but they they connect in all ways.

Brandon Miller:

Yeah. And so, I thought he would be someone that could speak both from the standpoint of the ministry to men in particular Yes. Because those encounters are very focused on guys and what's unique to our challenges. But I think broadly, because the ministry that he helps to lead and facilitate the the healing ministry does a lot of deep work, and you hear that word a lot now. Deep And and and solving trauma.

Brandon Miller:

And and I I I was part of a group of guys that talked a lot about different Ayahuasca and other interesting forms of deep work and therapy. And I was like, yeah. No. I'm gonna I'm not I'm all good with therapy, the other one, no. But with Sean, I he were in going down this path, learned a lot about just how we can really, support, sustain, and change things that are a part of what we carried into this life and what we carry forward and get hands on it through some very structured ministry experiences.

Brandon Miller:

And so I think he he has a wealth to bring us in some of those areas.

Shaun Gartman:

That's great.

Caleb Cole:

I love, you know, your guys' connection. Obviously, Sean and I met. I mean, it was probably thirteen, fourteen years ago now, at another church. We got connected. We had lunch.

Shaun Gartman:

Lot praying over you.

Caleb Cole:

Yeah. He prayed over us and was there in the early launch of Project Church. But we haven't kinda crossed paths in a while, so this is fun. But I'm curious what really hear from both of you guys. Like, why do you think, or what is the the issue or the culprit as to why so many men are struggling?

Caleb Cole:

Struggling with mental health, struggling with purpose, struggling with leading and leadership, struggling just being, like, men of God. This is the Men of Faith Podcast. Struggling being men of faith. You know, even struggling with with the dynamic of of masculinity in this culture. I mean, there's so many factors, but what do you think?

Caleb Cole:

If you were to narrow it down to a couple things, what do you think is really holding men back? And then then I know you you have something that helps them, and so what kind of solution is that is that bringing? And I wanna hear from from both of you actually on this.

Shaun Gartman:

Yeah. One of the things that we've added to the encounter is we've added something we call the father's blessing and, we started by just simply asking, you know, who here got to pick the family you were born into? And of I've never had anybody raise their hand.

Caleb Cole:

Not me.

Shaun Gartman:

But there's a lot of people who wouldn't pick the family they were born into. And that leads to the next question, and we end up at this place after a father's children talk of inviting the men up, who have never heard I love you from their father, never heard their father bless them. And Wow. Every time every time over half of them stand up. Wow.

Shaun Gartman:

And and we're talking 70 guys and so there's there's that is such a deep place to hear someone and and and it opens them to be able to begin to hear from the father, the heavenly father. Yeah. And so we come and so that's one of the things we do.

Caleb Cole:

So are you saying it's fatherlessness or the lack of love and understanding of what a son what sonship, which you addressed earlier, what sonship looks like, and really understanding that there is a father that loves them, because they didn't experience it earthly, it's hard for them to grasp it spiritually, and that the heavenly father

Shaun Gartman:

You bet. Yeah. Yeah. I Do

Caleb Cole:

you think that's the primary issue?

Shaun Gartman:

Yeah. I I know it was for me. Yeah. I I my my mother has gotten married multiple times, and, so I ended up with three different dads, and all of them came with their own messes and struggles. And, and so when I came to this place where I was trying to understand that I had a heavenly father, it was a deep fight for me.

Shaun Gartman:

And I know for me, when it really landed was, I began to take Ephesians one and, instead of reading it the way Paul wrote it to the Ephesians, I was reading it over myself. I made it something incredibly personal and, and to see that I am seated with Christ that the father has always had a plan for me and his plan was for good and it was for me to be in Christ has Ephesians more than any other book in the bible has completely transformed the way I see the father very specifically.

Caleb Cole:

I love that. Brandon, what do you think?

Brandon Miller:

Yeah. I would say in my own journey, and I'll I'll connect Sean to this part of the journey, I I think for those of us that want to serve God, we want to please him, but in the back of our heads, there's this voice, this antagonistic, I'm doing it wrong, I'm messing it up, I'm and and it's it's guilt laden, shame laden, it's filled with, I'm not measuring up, I'm not I'm not stacking up. And the amount of men out there that just kinda just feel a step back and whether we're we're pretending like we're ahead and it's all together, we're good, but it but the avoidance of drawing near, hearing the father's voice and being willing to walk in step was something that I personally had to to wrestle with. Why is it that my version of God's voice was so harsh? Why was it why was it so Yeah.

Brandon Miller:

Why did it feel so condemning? Why did I why did I believe that that's how I would be spoken to in Christ? And so I feel like what what Sean and others through the ministries that they do help guys connect to is back to what is that authentic voice to us in Christ, and how how does it sound? And you mentioned Ephesians because Sean asked me to read a book at one point. It's called Sit Walk Stand by Watchman Knee.

Brandon Miller:

And he said, just listen to the first chapter. Put it on repeat and listen to it. And so it's this idea of sitting. And and the whole point was Mhmm. Before you go and do anything, you have to know who you are.

Brandon Miller:

You're seated with Christ in the heavenlies if you're

Shaun Gartman:

a Christian.

Brandon Miller:

And if you don't get that part, then when it's time to go do the stuff, the walking and the, you know, the standing and going, and now you gotta battle and you gotta get out there, if that isn't firm, if your identity is not firm, you're getting crushed out there. Yeah. You're gonna you're gonna you're gonna come back bloody, beaten, bruised, and you're gonna think it's God doing it to you. Yeah. But in reality, this world and the the the forces of darkness, they're gonna beat the snot out of you if you can't Yeah.

Brandon Miller:

Come back to, no. Who who am I? So that was one. But then I have to say number two, and this, I think, comes back to just how do you take what you've learned and understand if it doesn't go towards something, if you're not moving toward a mission, if there if you haven't joined in this great mission, then you're gonna get stagnant and stale. You're gonna you're gonna find yourself floundering.

Brandon Miller:

And I think that was a big part of what I had to come to terms with in my own journey is I had reversed those two in my own walk. I was trying to to perform my way into God's Right. You know, favor. I was trying to do all the stuff Yeah. Without first going, no.

Brandon Miller:

I gotta I gotta sit here, be who he said, and then then watch it go. Because now now mission precedes relationship. It it follows relationship.

Caleb Cole:

Yeah. I think being a father, you know, I've learned just the power of what you both are talking about right now. Yeah. Because we see it in our children, just the longing for affirmation and acceptance Yeah. And love.

Caleb Cole:

My oldest one is the the most clear indicator for me. You know, he he just wants my approval so much and longs to be affirmed. I mean, literally yesterday, we're driving in the car, and he's talking about he's on the golf team now. He's talking about golf and how he's hitting the ball while he's like, I'm pretty good at golf. Am I, dad?

Caleb Cole:

And, like, it was such a weird thing for him to he, like, made a declaration about himself, and then said, Am I dad? Like, am I good? And I'm like, Yeah, you're good, bro. But I'm like, Why are you asking me? You just said you were.

Caleb Cole:

He's like, well, I just wanted to see if you thought I was. Mhmm. You know? And I and I I felt that, like, deep in my heart in the moment of, like, man, he just wants to be accepted, affirmed, loved, approved of. And how many men never got that from a father.

Caleb Cole:

Never. And then they they don't know how to receive that from a heavenly father because it is all, like you said, Brandon, it's about achieving, and then God approves of us. And when we fail, it's Him that did it to us. So He actually doesn't just disapprove of us, He crushed us because of how much we don't measure up. Right.

Caleb Cole:

So he caused the failure. And, you know, being a father, I'm just reminded how much more sons need to understand how loved they are, how approved they are

Shaun Gartman:

Yeah.

Caleb Cole:

How accepted they are, affirmed they are. And so, I mean, this will be my call up at the end, I guess, but those of us that are fathers and have the opportunity still to parent young men, but also girls, right, that we would give them what they not only need but deserve, should receive. As sons, we deserve that. We should receive that. But we suck as fathers, so we don't know how to give it because we didn't get it ourselves.

Shaun Gartman:

Yeah.

Caleb Cole:

But ultimately, I think we're a generation that is fatherless or didn't receive the love affirmation, encouragement that we should have growing up, So that's why half the room stands up and says, My dad never told me he loved me. Yeah. My dad never told me he was proud of me, you know? Or, I didn't even have a father to do that. Yeah.

Caleb Cole:

And then we wonder why they can't connect with the heavenly father. And how much of this is tied to mental health, actually?

Shaun Gartman:

Well, I'll tag off of, one of the words that you just said, which is deserve. And, you know, I mean, during my what I call my performance years where I'm doing this for God. I'm doing it for my dad. I'm doing it to show that I'm worthy and and then you'd land in this place where something bad would happen and you would immediately think, well, because I did this or Yeah. At this this failure means I deserve this and you have something miss, you know, killing you

Caleb Cole:

Yeah.

Shaun Gartman:

And you think that you earned every bit of it. And, you know, going back to Ephesians right there in Ephesians one, there's this one I remember the first time I just started to beef jerky chew on this one thing. It says that the father sees me as perfect and holy. And, every once in a while you'll you'll land on a piece of scripture and you're like, well, how does that work?

Caleb Cole:

Yeah.

Shaun Gartman:

And, because I have so much demands on myself, I have so much perfection in perfectionism and I've got to do this perfect. And, I just remember when the father said, the reason I see you, Sean, as perfect and holy is because I see you through my son. I see you through the blood of my son and and it it just transformed and changed and it it wasn't an overnight transformation but, it's, it's beautiful watching, men step from that I gotta do this for you God to I get to do this with you.

Caleb Cole:

Yeah.

Shaun Gartman:

And it's it's a big transition.

Caleb Cole:

Oh, love that. That's powerful.

Shaun Gartman:

Come on.

Caleb Cole:

Just just how God sees us.

Shaun Gartman:

Yeah.

Caleb Cole:

And it's much better than we see ourselves.

Shaun Gartman:

Come on. Well, and I love I love what you just said about your son because it we as as fathers, there's times where our kids will ask us something and and we're we're in that place like, do you think I don't? Yeah. You know? And so one of the bigger shifts comes from I think a lot of us struggle with the who am I question, you know?

Shaun Gartman:

And I I think who am I should be the derivative of understanding whose am I. Mhmm. And when you fully grasp that that you belong, you belong, the father has fully accepted you because of Christ.

Caleb Cole:

Yeah. We're changing the topic of this episode to sonship. What does it mean to be a son and a father? And a spiritual father or an earthly father, if we are that? Yeah.

Caleb Cole:

But also understanding our heavenly father. You know? Like, that's essentially where this has gone. And probably if we got this right, we would have a lot less mental health issues.

Brandon Miller:

Well, think about it. You know, in in the work that my company does, the the topic of psychological safety comes up a lot.

Shaun Gartman:

Yeah.

Brandon Miller:

And when you think about where are we most safe in Christ Yeah. And where do we feel secure, and where do we feel

Shaun Gartman:

Yeah.

Brandon Miller:

That we're in a place of health and strength? So when we are anxious, when we have fear, when we have doubts, when we're feeling out of sorts, it's it's the fallback position of, no, but I know I know these truths and I rely on these truths because that's that's how I see my way through. And so I I would agree with you that there's a very strong link between our mental health space and our sonship and our security and and our recognition of what he has done and who we are in him.

Caleb Cole:

Yeah. Yeah. I don't think identity is something we've talked a lot about in our podcast, the men of faith. But essentially, that's what we're addressing right now.

Shaun Gartman:

Yeah.

Caleb Cole:

Is identity, sonship Yeah. Being your identity as men, and yet how many men wouldn't even identify that, nor would they probably want to embrace that. I think there's a lot of of Christians, men of faith, who are like, Sonship, I'm grown. You know? Like, I'm a grown man.

Caleb Cole:

I I don't need to be a, like, Don't sun me. Like, you'll hear that. Like, that's actually a saying now, like, Oh, he's Don't sun me. He sunned him. Like, Listen here, son.

Caleb Cole:

Right. But it's like, No, that's our identity with a heavenly father.

Brandon Miller:

You've done this to me a lot. You when

Caleb Cole:

we just Did you?

Brandon Miller:

No. What he would do is, on multiple times when we'd be together, he would say, rank in order your identity. Right? Yeah. And he would and he would just hit me, like, Rank in order.

Brandon Miller:

All the things you are right now from the most important down

Shaun Gartman:

Yeah.

Brandon Miller:

What are they?

Caleb Cole:

Okay. And where would you changed. Tell me the wrong rankings. Tell me the wrong rankings and tell me the right ranking.

Brandon Miller:

Husband, father, son, you know, son Provider. Yeah. Provider, protector. Yes. And I meant son to my parents, you know, brother, you know, this, uncle, there.

Brandon Miller:

And and then through conversations, it would be, well, wait a minute. If I don't start with son to my father in heaven, then all of these other roles will suffer the consequence of me being out of order. Yeah. Yeah. Because I won't be able to stain sustain any one of these in a powerful positive way if I don't have first first things first.

Shaun Gartman:

Yeah. If your identity isn't something that's settled Yeah. It's the root of most mental health problems. Mean, we're in a society and in a culture that is you could be whoever you want, you can be whatever you want, you can and and Yeah. We're there's a lot of mental health crisis and if I was looking for what is the root of mental health crisis in a in a in our current day, honestly, I believe it would come down to identity.

Caleb Cole:

Identity.

Shaun Gartman:

How do I think God sees me? How do I think people see me? How do I see myself?

Caleb Cole:

Wow. I I think that there are probably men listening to this right now that this is revelatory. I think this is there's revelation being dropped in the hearts and minds of men right now. And I think there's probably, as you're on the verge of tears and were earlier, I just sense that there's men crying right now because they, while they're listening to this, and I'm talking to you men who are listening to this right now, watching this, because you've wrestled with who you are, whose you are, and you've wondered why mentally I'm unhealthy, and, you know, I struggle with worry and anxiety, and where do I belong, and what's really my purpose here? And ultimately, it does come down to this idea of sonship.

Caleb Cole:

And I think if we all would just embrace the reality of, like, that is what's most important. Yeah. I love that you guys are ranked that. I've never heard that. I'm gonna start doing that for myself, because I need to probably have a rank check.

Caleb Cole:

That's real. I'm a son first.

Brandon Miller:

Yeah. Yeah. Ranked check. That's good.

Caleb Cole:

I'm a son first.

Shaun Gartman:

Yeah.

Caleb Cole:

And from that, everything else will flow You bet. Naturally. And I think, not perfectly, but more perfectly. Yeah. But when I'm out of order, and I'm trying to be, what, protector first

Shaun Gartman:

Yeah.

Caleb Cole:

Provider first, and then I feel like I'm never enough, I'm never measuring up. Well, that's because I'm not The number one is sonship, and I'll always be enough. I'll always measure up I know that there's a Father that approves of me, loves me, accepts me, just as I am.

Shaun Gartman:

Sees you perfect and holy.

Caleb Cole:

Yes, like my son. Am I dad? But you know what's crazy is part of me didn't want to say it.

Shaun Gartman:

And

Caleb Cole:

I think that was the broken part of me that was like, didn't hear it enough myself, and if I say it, he'll get weak or soft. And there was a part of me that didn't want to say it. Yeah. And I fought myself in a and it's, you know, this this is all processing in my head in, three seconds. Yeah.

Caleb Cole:

And I responded with a question because I was like, why am I I was still processing, why do I not want to say it? And I said, well, do you think you are? Yeah, I do. And I was like, I agree. Are.

Caleb Cole:

You're good. You could be great, but it takes work. That's why I said to them, like, you could be great, but it takes work. Right? There's But you're good just how you are.

Caleb Cole:

Yeah. You're natur That's what I was like, you're naturally gifted.

Shaun Gartman:

Come on.

Caleb Cole:

And I think that, you know, this is a whole other, maybe part of this topic of sonship, but, you know, even those of us who had good fathers, which I did, good earthly father, and yet, knowing that, like, I grew up in a family that wasn't that affectionate, that I love you wasn't said as regularly. It was said, but it wasn't like, we weren't an affectionate family. There wasn't I love yous all over the place and affection being thrown out, which is like how my wife is now. And even from her, when she's overly affectionate towards me, telling me how great I am and how uncomfortable it makes me. Like, she affirms me all the time and it always makes me uncomfortable.

Caleb Cole:

Like, you don't got to say all that. Like, I'm not that great. But I've learned more from her, the heart of what I think the Father is. Yeah. Because he wants to pour out his love on us all the time, and I'm just wrestling, even myself, with this idea of sonship, and am I deserving?

Caleb Cole:

So would you say, because I said, we talked about earlier, deserve, deserve, like, that fine line of how we've all been parented, like tough love, and you gotta work through it yourself, and you know, you gotta earn it, and you gotta work hard, and that's all true. But, do we deserve to be encouraged and built up and love poured out on us every day? Does that make us soft? I don't know because I Yeah. Didn't grow up in that environment, you know?

Shaun Gartman:

Yeah. For me, sonship is about abiding. I know you talked about this yesterday and I know this because we you also were talking about fruit of the spirit and I I just know that in my own performance mentality for at least the first twenty five years of my, belief in Jesus and my walk and and trying to be a good husband and that it was it was always I'm trying I I I need to be more loving in this situation. I need to be more patient in this situation and I I finally felt the Lord say, would you give me your love and trade me for mine? And I call it the tap out moment.

Brandon Miller:

Mhmm.

Shaun Gartman:

Because I have a if if I'm the source of love, it it's it's a shallow pool.

Brandon Miller:

Mhmm. For sure.

Shaun Gartman:

And when I when I tapped out of trying to be loving toward my wife, toward myself, toward others and I tapped in to the love of God and the fruit of his nature Mhmm. Everything changed. Everything changed. And, I I I nicknamed it the great love inversion, and it's where I just stopped trying to be, including the good things, the patient, joyful, gentle, compassionate, long suffering. And, I I gave up trying, tapped out, and tapped in, and it's been the most transformational thing that's ever happened in my life.

Caleb Cole:

I love that. The, shameless plug for my sermon yesterday, you guys can listen to it on the podcast.

Shaun Gartman:

It's awesome.

Caleb Cole:

It it was, in our decrease series from because I don't know when this episode's gonna air, but it was April 6, and, I talked about just knowing his way, which is the abiding way, and the word abide, which he uses 10 times in John 15 Yeah. In this 11 verse section of Scripture where he's talking about the vine, and him being the vine, and we're the branches, and apart from him, we can do nothing, right? If we're not plugged into the vine, what can we accomplish? That's what Jesus is saying, but he uses the term abide 10 times in these 11 verses. And the word, like when we translate in the Greek, actually means to make your home in.

Shaun Gartman:

Come

Caleb Cole:

on. So when you make your home in him, and that topic, or what you just said, reminds me of the quote that I read yesterday to our church. David Benner, who's a psychologist

Shaun Gartman:

Okay.

Caleb Cole:

And a spiritual director, he said, Meditation on God's love has done more to increase my love than decades of effort to try to be more loving. And that quote is exactly what you just said.

Shaun Gartman:

It's source shift.

Caleb Cole:

Yeah, the source, right? I'm trying to be more loving. We try so hard. But he said, it's just meditating on God's love that did way more from me learning to be more loving. And so it's that abiding.

Caleb Cole:

I'm making my home in the vine, Jesus. And his love then shows me how to love. It teaches me how love, and I'm plugged into that love.

Shaun Gartman:

Come on. So good. So good. So I can't wait to hear Chrissy's version of that, same sermon, by

Caleb Cole:

the Right. It would be better. There'd be a lot more tears. Aw. So within, you know, this this topic of sonship, Brandon, you've you've earthly fathered, how many sons now?

Caleb Cole:

Four or five?

Brandon Miller:

I have three sons.

Caleb Cole:

Three sons. Okay. You have so many kids. I can't keep it straight. You have grandsons now too, though, I think.

Brandon Miller:

Yeah.

Caleb Cole:

So three sons. What has been maybe the the biggest need you've seen in maybe young men today? And I think that we talked a little bit about this with Sam in his podcast where we talked about the next generation, but we didn't talk about men or boys specifically. I know you have a son that's older, but you also have two younger sons who are still in high school. So what have you seen, like, as the need for this generation that's maybe even different than our generation or, you know, generations a little bit after us?

Brandon Miller:

It's very natural as a as a dad who performs for a living, you know, being a business person, being you know, growing up an athlete, growing up with a mindset of perform or, you know, lose. It's it's a zero sum game And life is hard and, you know, wear a helmet because it's gonna you're gonna you're gonna fall, you're gonna hurt. And so with boys, I found with my older one that I had to learn how to instill in Lance that I loved him regardless of how he performed. That that that was that was something that was nonnegotiable. It wouldn't change.

Brandon Miller:

I would always love him. Performance was next, and I wanted him to do well. I wanted him to succeed. I wanted him to find purpose, find joy, all those great things. But if I reverse that, then Lance would would constantly be striving for something that would always be out of reach.

Brandon Miller:

Because if you're performing for love, you'll never, you don't get it. Yes. Because what you both just said about Abide and so as a dad, I felt like it was a big part of my job of rooting him in that his father loves him, father, and then his father loves him. And that was a I think I think in a kid's life, the the messages they remember are the ones you repeat the most. Yeah.

Brandon Miller:

And so Yeah. Taking the time to do it, you know, God says in the old testament, when you're walking along the roads, when you're in the car, when you're in your house, when you're at your table, just reminding of of that you're loved. So my son, Lance, you could quiz him on this. It was, you know, what does your dad want you to be more than anything else in this world? And he would say, a man of God.

Caleb Cole:

And it

Brandon Miller:

was, you know, be be rooted in that. Be rooted in God's love because that's that's gonna matter more than anything.

Caleb Cole:

Yeah. I love that. Sean, you're you've worked with a lot of men through the years. Yeah. I know you operate as a spiritual father Yeah.

Caleb Cole:

For a lot of men. And so what would you say to, you know, some of these men that are listening right now? I think there's a lot of men out here that are listening, and this episode is resonating with their heart. But I don't know that they, probably a lot of them, don't have spiritual fathers in their life, or they haven't had an earthly father that's spoken to So what would you encourage them with in terms of, like, how they can move to a place of sonship? Like, it's easy for us to say, be a son.

Caleb Cole:

Prioritize sonship. That's number one. But how do you do that? Because I don't think we even know how to. Yeah.

Caleb Cole:

We don't know how to make the what do we call it? The the the change? The ranking change? I don't

Shaun Gartman:

know what you guys said. Yeah. Well, I for me, I think the biggest thing that happened because because of the three fathers that were in my life, my, my biological dad, my stepdad, and my adopted father, it was always about how they see me. How do how do they see me? How do they perceive me?

Shaun Gartman:

And am I doing enough for them to see me the way I'm wanting? And so my my my word for you is take off your glasses of the way you see the guy in the mirror. Take off your glasses of the way you believe the father sees you, even your own earthly father, and hand them to the Lord and let him clean off some of the things that that have been smeared on there from the way you were treated, mistreated, hurt, ignored from your own father, and let him clean those lenses to show you how he truly sees you. And again, I I I just invite every one of you just get in Ephesians one and read it in first person and and listen to what the father is saying over you and how he sees you. Because for me, having that vision change, the way I see myself and the way I believe others see me, was seriously, without question, the most transformational Yeah.

Shaun Gartman:

Moment in my own life.

Caleb Cole:

That's powerful. I think that we don't often take the time to shift the perspective of even how we see ourselves. And we don't think about how negative or critical or judgmental we see our own lives, how we're leading, how we're loving, how we're performing, how we're parenting. Yeah. And it is a critical, negative, probably mental space that a lot of us live in, in how we are essentially leading ourselves, but it's all rooted in how we see ourselves Yeah.

Caleb Cole:

And how we think our earthly father saw us, other people see us, and ultimately our heavenly father sees us. Yeah. And that shift is hard.

Shaun Gartman:

If you're cursing the guy in the mirror or you're hating the guy in the mirror, it's it's it's a lens you're looking through that the father wants to just say, here, let me change this. Let me clean this lens up to show you one how I see you, as perfect and holy. Why?

Caleb Cole:

My you're

Shaun Gartman:

in Christ and I call you my son. I call you in. You're adopted into my into my life. And Yeah. You you you talked a little bit about it yesterday, John 15.

Shaun Gartman:

John fifteen nine says, abide in my love. This is Jesus saying

Caleb Cole:

Yeah.

Shaun Gartman:

Abide in my love as I abide in the father's love. To me, that's that's the whole reason why I get to boldly approach the throne. Yeah. Because the father sees me in his son and loves me in his son, which is why he sees me as perfect and holy.

Caleb Cole:

Yeah. I love that. Well, one thing we do here, Sean, is we give a call up at the end of every episode. So we don't call men out. We call them up.

Shaun Gartman:

I love it.

Caleb Cole:

And and we believe that calling men up, you know, to higher places, greater things, know, God's been doing a lot through this podcast and in men's lives, so I'm thankful for it. So I'll give you a minute. Each of you think about a call up. I'll kick us off, though, but I do wanna, I think, call up the men, just all the men that are parents, our fathers, earthly fathers, because ultimately, there's a lot that listen to this podcast that are in our stage of life, or my stage of life and even younger, and they're fathering young men, they're fathering girls. And I would just encourage you, that you would give them the love, give your children the love that ultimately they deserve, they need, and love them the way the Father in Heaven loves you, which is unmerited.

Caleb Cole:

Right? It's not because of what we do. It's undeserving.

Shaun Gartman:

Yeah.

Caleb Cole:

And yet, he pours it out. And so I would just encourage you to love your children that way. And so I've I've been telling men a lot this lately because God's been convicting me on it. And so my call up for you is men with boys, that you would hug them, that you would kiss them, that you would tell them you love them. Even if it's uncomfortable for you, you're getting out of your comfort zone.

Shaun Gartman:

Yeah.

Caleb Cole:

And you would speak words of life over them, even if it's not what comes natural for you. So good. Because you're gonna have the voice like I did, saying, Don't don't give it to them. But I believe that's an unhealthy, like, oh, I gotta motivate them to earn something that they need to hear from us. And we can still motivate, right?

Caleb Cole:

I still have my moments with my son where I'm like, you're better than this. Like, do more. You know? I need you I need more effort, more energy. You gotta give your best.

Caleb Cole:

Was that your best? That wasn't your best. You know, I'm like, I'm still a coach. I'm gonna call it out when I see it. But I also, in those moments, I'm like, Hey, this isn't about performance.

Caleb Cole:

This is about your father, and he loves you. And he sees you, and I love you so much, I'm gonna hug you, I'm gonna give you a kiss even if you don't like it, but deep down, they do. And they long for it, they need it, and they want it. So that's my call up.

Shaun Gartman:

So good. Sean or Brandon? Yeah, I My call up up is to is to tap out. And what is what am I tapping out of? I I know for me, my first twenty five years of of being a believer, I, with all my heart, believed the greatest commands.

Shaun Gartman:

To love the Lord of God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself, man. But during that season of my life, if you would have packaged up how I loved myself and put it in a nice little bow and a and wrapping and tried to give it to somebody, they wouldn't have opened something that they would have liked. And and I just remember, the day when, the love inversion happened, and I tapped out of trying to love God with everything I have and trying to love others around me like I love me. And I just allowed God's love to overwhelm me and overtake me. And my call up is to tap out of trying to be loving.

Shaun Gartman:

Mhmm. Tap out. Every single thing that's in his nature that you're trying to do, tap out. And tap into the source, the infinite eternal source of who he is and ask him to pour so much of his love into you that it begins to just pour out of you. Yeah.

Shaun Gartman:

And it will transform and change not just you as a son but, for the sons and daughters that he's entrusted to you.

Caleb Cole:

So good.

Brandon Miller:

So mine's really simple, fellas. Just reset your rank. Take out a piece of paper and, you know, I am, you know, with I am and just think about your rank. And I would encourage you to put number one on that list, I am a son to my father in heaven. And as many times as that has to be reset until it is firmly rooted that that's number one, all the other all the other things will flow under there, and they may even shift change as your life goes.

Brandon Miller:

But reset your rank and lock in number one, and then build from there.

Caleb Cole:

So good. Well, hey, Sean. Thanks for being with us. Those are some amazing call ups, guys. I love this conversation, and, I would encourage you guys to if you didn't soak all this in, go back and listen again.

Caleb Cole:

But but, ultimately, we thank you for being a part of the Men of Faith Podcast. Sean, was a pleasure. Brandon, always an honor and pleasure. But, hey, man. Onward upward.

Caleb Cole:

Keep fighting the good fight. Grace and peace. We'll see you next time.