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Creativity isn’t tidy—it’s risky, chaotic, and full of surprises. It’s full of breakthroughs and breakdowns, moments of flow and moments of doubt. Join Mishu Hilmy for unfiltered conversations with artists, filmmakers, musicians, and fearless makers who thrive in the unknown, embrace imperfection, and create at the edge of possibility.
This is your front row seat to the self-doubt, unexpected wins, and messy emotional work of making something real. But craft isn’t just about feeling—it’s about problem-solving, process, and the devotion behind mastery.
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Email anytime at podcast@ohhmaybe.com and follow us @mischiefpod
Welcome to Mischief and Mastery, where we embrace the ups, downs, and all around uncertainty of a creative life and that steady and sometimes not so steady journey toward expertise. Each episode, we talk candidly with people I know, people I don't know, folks who produce, direct, write, act, do comedy, make art, make messes, and make meaning out of their lives. You will hear guests lay out how they work, what they're thinking about, where they get stuck, and why they snap out of their comfort zones, led to big, bold, risky moves. So if you're hungry for honest insights, deep dives into process philosophies, and practical tips, plus maybe a little mischief along the
Mishu:way, you're in the right place.
Mishu:For more, visit mischiefpod.com.
Mishu:Hello, everyone. This is me, Shuhilmi. Welcome to Mischief and Mastery. This is the first episode, and also this was the first conversation I had trying this experiment of talking with friends and people who inspire me. So, yeah, this is a conversation with me and Imani Davis.
Mishu:We know each other from Chicago before she moved out to Los Angeles. Imani is a film programmer at the American Cinematheque as well as a producer and writer dedicated to reworking the modern Western film canon with diversity and quality at the forefront. She's produced short films, web series, and indie features while curating repertory screenings and digital platforms for filmmakers. As the founder and lead programmer of the American Cinematheque's Proof Short Film Festival, she continues to champion emerging voices all while fostering community through initiatives like Room nineteen Productions and Film Girls Brunch. What do we talk about in this episode?
Mishu:We get into the landscape of film distribution, challenges of indie marketing, as well as why filmmakers today really need to have more of a hands on approach to get their work seen. We also chat about just the kind of goals of demystifying the industry and what it's like to, you know, produce a film. You can follow her on Instagram and TikTok at Imani m Davis. I'll drop those in the show notes. Also, be sure to check out her podcast, Players.
Mishu:Players is a film industry podcast hosted by her and Dema Straussbaugh, offering candid conversations about the business of filmmaking, covering things like financing all the way to storytelling while also giving listeners insider insights on navigating the industry. So here it is. Alrighty. Let's get into it. The first episode.
Mishu:Hope you enjoy me and Imani .
Imani:I feel like we're starting to even get more into a groove of it, and we're hitting, like, 20 episodes, something like that soon. And so we really want to demystify topics that are mystified in the film industry, which is a lot of them. Right. And there's just like a lot of gatekeeping and intentional, like, information keeping
Mishu:Right.
Imani:In the industry. A lot of it, I guess, has to do with, I don't know, some people's job security, some egos and stuff. And so we're all about, like, real talk and what are the things that we can put out there that people really have, like, questions about and our barriers to access in the industry, especially during this time when things are really turbulent and it's especially hard for like upcoming filmmakers to kind of compete in that environment when people with a ton of experience are also looking for work and are like, what's going on? So yeah, that guides a lot of our ethos with like, oh, this could be like a great guest or like, oh, this could be like a great topic, especially just paying attention to the trades and what's going on.
Mishu:Mhmm.
Imani:Yeah. It's all around demystification.
Mishu:I think it's, like, probably, like, helpful to have, like, within your partnership, like, clear clear expectations versus, like, you wanted it to be one thing and Demo wanted it to be another. So like, were you pretty quick to align on it, did it take a couple conversations?
Imani:Yeah. We were on the same page. We both listened to The Town from Matt Bellany, which is another industry podcast. And he's a reporter, and he's just like, he's very good at just asking really upfront questions, getting to the heart of like information that people don't talk about. Like he's a great reporter and he's been doing it for years.
Imani:And so we love what he is able to kind of dispel and manner that he does it. Where like, if you're coming on the town, like, know what you're getting into. Like, he's gonna grill you. He's gonna ask you questions. Nice.
Imani:We were on the same page, I think, with, like, thinking about that podcast of, like, not trying to be exactly like the town, but being on the same page of, like, let's really, like, talk about things information out there.
Mishu:Is it predominantly like you'll have an industry expert or I know, or is it, you know, more balanced out where sometimes you'll just have an interesting figure you can talk to about a niche subject and other episodes are just you and Dema, like musing and looking at the trades and kind of forecasting?
Imani:We definitely wanted to have like that flexibility. One, to like switch things up, but also to like, oh, it's less pressure to like have to get like a guest for everything. Right. So sometimes it is just us, is great. And we can just like talk about something timely or we can get like a group of people together and those are like our panel pods where we're like talking about different things with like kind of a group of people.
Imani:I wish those are fun too. So we did that to increase variety, but also just to have like flexibility. I
Mishu:hope you don't mind me just asking a lot of informational questions and maybe we'll get to like I mean, it's all process, right, pre process? Yeah. For the more conversations between just you and Demo, like, do you have like a couple bullet points or an outline? You know, do you look up some information, or is it really just like, yeah, it's trusting on your insider knowledge and hot takes?
Imani:We plan out the kind of conversation flow like we outlined and we kind of just start with a base of like maybe four or five like meaty questions that 'll kind of like guide the flow of the conversation. Knowing that there's probably gonna be like follow-up questions or like little sidetracks within that, but that's always kind of like our outline is like those foundational questions.
Mishu:It's like what level of preparedness do you wanna sort of offer up? And I think for your podcast, it's really a few episodes, it really sort of expertly thought out. When it came to it, or your approach, did you decide just like audio only? Unless you have a video component, I'm not familiar with it, but what's sort of the kind of approach you took or decisions you made? Like, we just want this to start out as audio only, maybe build to video.
Mishu:I know there's a barrier of entry. I get hung up like, oh, fuck. I don't wanna buy three cameras or rent three cameras. So are you currently audio only? Is that the goal for the short term?
Imani:We are audio only. I think that's what we'll keep doing unless it like got so big to the point where we have like managers or agents or something and they're
Mishu:like, me
Imani:too. We're on the call her daddy like level.
Mishu:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Imani:But people always do like audio because it's just easier to edit. And like we don't have it's all like a Bandwidth thing. Like we don't have right now social media dedicated specifically to the moment because that's a lot of work. And we were both like, we can't do that yet. And we're okay with that.
Mishu:Yeah.
Imani:So that's why we do our And it's less pressure from the guests too, because I feel
Mishu:like they'll always ask,
Imani:Oh, is imaging recording? And we're like, No, like, come in your sweatpants, like, no makeup, no pressure. I've been on video, have podcasts too, I'm like, oh, it just adds another level.
Mishu:Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think of the Degree Performance, partly on the form that I had folks fill out, just like, yeah, do you prefer audio only, video, or in person? I think 70% were like, yeah, video conference is fine, and then the other 30% were like, can we do this in person? And none of them were like, I just wanna do audio, which is fine, but small sampling of the 25 people that took up the call for this invite, people didn't have a preference. But I think at the producing level, it's such a much lower barrier of entry, and I think even maybe an easier selling point when it comes to guests, because you might have someone who's at the agent level or even distributor or kind of b to b level who don't wanna they just don't want their face out on YouTube or the Internet, they don't, you know, even identify as someone who creates work or performs, but a recorded conversation is no different than radio.
Mishu:So do you find that that's been, like, an easier selling point for maybe guests that are a little bit more entrenched or at higher runs of the industry?
Imani:I think so. Oh, because yes. Actually, it helps too because there there happens some guests who are like busy on the go, and they're like, actually, like, I'm doing it from my phone. Like Yeah. And it's like, oh, totally.
Imani:You know? And so I think the audio only, like, adds to the flexibility of that. Mhmm. I don't think anyone has been like, oh, I can't want these out there. But I think there have been some situations where they've just been, like, kind of on the go, and so
Mishu:Mhmm. Yeah.
Imani:Makes it a little easier, yeah.
Mishu:Do people come to your audio setup, or is it virtual, like you'll use Riverside and just, you know, have your interviews, or do you have like a setup in, you know, your apartment or some third space that offers you kind of free podcasting studio vibes.
Imani:That'd be great. Gemma and I are both in our apartment.
Mishu:Yeah, yeah.
Imani:And then yes, we are virtual with our guests, so they don't have to come into a studio or anything. Like, one day that would be great. Maybe when I convince them to move to LA, and then we'll just have the person once. That would be But, no, that'd be great. But we're both in our apartments and have, like, a little set.
Imani:Like, Dem and I both have mics. Guess we we don't have mics, but honestly, like, it doesn't really make a difference with the sound quality I've noticed. Like, everybody's really good, so I think with kind of, like, leveling things out and stuff. So, yeah, it's all very, like, ragtag in our apartment. Did
Mishu:you have any sort of, like, insecurity or, like, perfectionism where it's like, okay, me and Demo, have okay, good enough mics, but our guests might not have a mic. Does that make this less easy to listen to if they're kind of warbly or noisy? Was that something that was an inhibitor for you, or did you just of let that go?
Imani:I think at the beginning, like, I feel good about the sound quality of our stuff now. At the beginning, like, it was like, I edited it. It was my first time, like, editing it. And it sounded good when I was editing on Adobe Audition, like, through my headphones. But then I remember we launched and it was like the first episode.
Imani:And then I listened to it in my car and I was like, what happened? There was like all kinds of stuff going on. But then we kind of like tweaked that. Like, I went back and I was like, oh, like, I need to like make sure that these sounds are kind of like overlapping so there's not like this gap of silence, and then it like picks up again.
Mishu:Oh yeah, like the noise floor?
Imani:Yeah. Because you can hear that. Like I was listening to this podcast, which is a really good podcast, and they just launched. I think they'll get it together too. But I was like, oh, they're doing what I used to do.
Imani:Lear it.
Mishu:Right. Are you still, are you and Demba both the predominant editors post production sound engineers, or did you I know you mentioned earlier you were thinking about you were talking to editors, so are you still the both of you doing it, or did you find a friend who's like, no, I'll do this. It's it's pretty, you know, easy for me.
Imani:It is us. I had us like editing and making sure sound is good and stuff. We did a live episode once and like the sound got messed up with So we had to like find someone to like edit. And it was a friend who is in LA who was like, can someone like help us like clean up this sound, like, our live podcast? So a friend reached out.
Imani:He's like, yeah. Yeah. Totally. And then he's like, you know, like, why don't y'all need help, like, editing? And I'm like, yes.
Imani:That was, the one like, the one area where we would love to pass that off, like delegate. And so now we just all talked earlier about just, yeah, that arrangement of like, we don't have money. We don't have money right now, but, like, hopefully, one day we'll have, like, sponsors and stuff. But he's, like, totally cool with, like, doing some pro bono stuff. But just because of, like, the mission of the podcast of, like, demystifying and community, community building.
Imani:So, yeah, that is exciting.
Mishu:Like for you, did you find like the editing process, like creatively fulfilling? Did you get in a flow state? Or for you it was like, it's so technical and kind of Like, I'm curious, what sort of turns you on, at least in the podcasting process? Is it the interview? Is it the prep?
Mishu:Is it the talking? Is it the editing? The release?
Imani:Yeah, I like the interviews. I like the interview portion a lot, getting able to, like, talk shop and kind of bounce back and forth with, like, a guest, or demo. And I did, like, editing. Like, in the beginning I was editing a decent amount of, I'm just like slow. And Devin's gonna say they're both perfectionists about it.
Imani:So my friend, his name's Nate, shout out Nate. He's like, oh yeah, like my speed is kinda like 1.5, like if it's like a thirty minute. So it'll take me like forty five minutes. I'm like
Mishu:It's a nice file, Bill.
Imani:It is fast. It would just It takes me so much longer.
Mishu:I love editing, but it can get to that thing of like I don't like sound editing. Like, I just don't Like, my ear, I can't Like, I just Like, oh, it's not MIDI enough for it. You get the spectral noise, and it sounds like a ghost is just like warbling in the background, like I'm really, I don't think I could hear for mixing and all that, but I love the act of editing. So when it comes to at least your edit, and maybe compare it to Nate if he's done a couple episodes, how much editing did you do in terms of adjusting the pacing for maybe too long of sort of pauses, or was it more clean up? Would you restructure kind of thoughts, or were you pretty light on your edit?
Mishu:I'm curious.
Imani:You can really get in the weeds with it and like be a perfectionist and like be like, oh, I have to edit out like all of these breaths and stuff. Mhmm. And like completely cleaned it up. And it also just needed to be okay with, like, some imperfections, you know, like and some of that is good and and makes it
Mishu:Mhmm.
Imani:You know, even cozier. That was, a a learning moment too of, like, being okay with, you know, some of the mistakes. Because first of all, it takes too long to like literally get every single little thing. And second, like, not some people like notice, you know.
Mishu:Like, you're listening to the driving, you're on the highway, you're gonna get so much highway noise. I think it's like a, again, that perfectionist of like, let it be good enough, especially at the early entry or beginning phases. I mean, you're nearing your year, so yeah, I think that's great to just go, like, alright, we're just gonna do this, and let go and grow from, alright, we can let some long pauses with there. Yeah. I think I just have one more question on podcasts, and like, when it comes to your guests, is it mostly just, like, emails, or do you, like, have an agreement where you're, hey.
Mishu:You're the use of your likeness in the publishing, or you're pretty low key. Like, look. If the guest wants to pull the audio in x number of months or years, we'll we'll let it be.
Imani:Yeah. Like, we do have a little, like, form where we got, like, boilerplate language or something from probably another podcast. Sometimes, I guess, because we send it it's like a Google form, and, like, you fill it out with, like, your bio and, like, screenshot and stuff. And then it's like a checkbox of, like, oh, this is, like, the agreement.
Mishu:Right.
Imani:And some of our guests, you know, read their email and do it. Some of them don't. And we're just lucky to have them on the call.
Mishu:Yeah. Yeah.
Imani:So we're super casual about it. No one's been like, me
Mishu:too pissed out But
Imani:even if they did, like, and they signed the agreement, like, we'll be like, okay. Like, we'll take it down. Like
Mishu:Thanks for ask answering, like, to me, an excessive amount of informational questions about Of course. Podcasting. But I yeah. Not like so how are you, like because I know when we talked in LA and maybe briefly at your birthday, so this, like, Players is a great outlet, do you find that you're sort of, you know, what's, I don't wanna do a breakdown percentage wise, like what's sort of the passion level, but what would you love to be spending all of your time on currently? Because you know you're doing Route 19, you have players, you have your job, you have proof.
Mishu:So, like, what's, like, where's your kind of passion right now? What are you really excited about, or how do you feel about time?
Imani:That's a good question. I feel like I've been thinking about it even more recently of, like, love programming. I love my job and stuff. I just know that a lot of people get into film program positions and then they, like, that's, like, it. They like retire in these positions.
Imani:I know that I am not going to I don't know exactly how long stay. Like, we'll we'll see, especially with like proof and wanting to build that and and stuff. And it really is a fun job. Like, you get to, like, watch a lot of movies and stuff and watch stuff early. But, I remember with rolling out and kind of gearing up for the festival run and, like, looking for distribution for year one, which is the coming of a college coming of age feature that I produced two years ago in Chicago that we shot on Northwestern's campus and stuff.
Imani:It's like, oh, like, I have so many ideas about just, like, the distribution of that and, like, the rollout. Like, should we, like, take it to, like, college campuses and, like, screen it there and, have conversations about, like, mental health, especially during the first year of college and stuff. And then, like, also just, having more conversations with, like, distributors and reaching out there and, also reaching out to, like, more festivals and stuff. It's just, like, if I was doing all the stuff that I had ideas for and wanted to do with year one, like, it would have to be my full time job. Like, I'd have to quit my job.
Imani:And so that was kind of like a coming to term moment of like, oh, like, whenever I'm wanting to get back into producing or whatever, like, that has to be it. It's just, like, so much time, especially, like, with doing everything that you want to do with it. And especially with the way that, like, I think feature filmmaking is going, I think filmmakers are and, like, film teams are having to steer a lot of the stuff that comes with making a movie. And that's all of it.
Mishu:That's pre
Imani:production, production, and also being heavily involved in distribution and marketing and releasing stuff. Like, gone are the days where you, like, sell your movie and just hand it off to distributor and no. Like, you have to be involved. And I was reading too about something that some distribution experts said, like, years ago actually about having, like, a producer, like, a marketing producer, like, person, like, on the film team.
Mishu:I'm like,
Imani:that's really smart. And I think that is, like, going to be a thing because it's just it's such a troubled time in the industry right now with that specific piece of things of distribution. And I just see that being the direction things are headed, where film teams just have to
Mishu:be more and more. I think that's interesting. Mean, even the kind of the new job role on set sort of behind the scenes social media person, right? Like, I'm sure that's baked into the actor agreements that they're allowing themselves to be recorded behind the scenes, but I think that speaks to production teams need a marketing producer to not only think about that, but how can you preemptively have newsworthy publicity elements and make sure you're actually capturing a variety of production stills so your EPK is good. So do you think, like, right now, maybe because the feature that you produced is maybe nearing the tail end of a festival run, and it's coming to distribution conversations or cycles, like, is that where you're excited about?
Mishu:Like, I would love to one day, distribution would be my life. I I guess that's too big of a question. Like, are you just more excited about distribution right now? Like, you wish you had more time to really give your attention to it. Because I listened to your episode, think, was it Adrian with the public good?
Mishu:Drew Becker.
Imani:Yeah. Public. Forward?
Mishu:Yeah. Yeah. Oh, should I just get an incoming call? Oh, Hang up. What is this?
Mishu:Alright. But, yeah. So, like, I think that's a really interesting model, but when I finished listening to it, I'm like, distribution is a very labor intensive job. Like, you're you're connecting with different social groups and for a public good distribution, like different community groups. So I'm just curious, like, do you find yourself excited by the idea of distribution or currently just like, oh, yeah.
Mishu:This is interesting. I wish I could spend more time on it.
Imani:Very excited by industry. I think that's what got me into, like, producing, like, in the first place was, like, love story, love preproduction and stuff. Like and you'll hear my friends say this. Like, I'm not the biggest fan of being on set.
Mishu:Yeah, same.
Imani:I like visiting set and stuff. But the day to day grind is not for me. At least currently. But I'm really intrigued by, like, the marketing business side of things and think there's, like, a lot of innovation to meet. And I think that's why I'm such a big fan of eight twenty four and Neon and just, like, shaking things up and doing things differently
Mishu:Right.
Imani:And getting to audiences in new ways. Like, I think I've just become more attuned to it, working on, like, the programming side of things too, like, exhibition side of things where it's just, like, some of the materials that was just like come through with like a value, just sending someone the emails that are like marketing the films to like programmers. I'm like, this is dusty. This looks old. Like, So traditional.
Imani:Yeah, I think there's like a lot to be done there. I mean, we'll see what TikTok does and if we'll even have TikTok in The US in a
Mishu:couple months.
Imani:Yeah. Got
Mishu:like 30 left, forty days left.
Imani:We'll see what happens there. But I think there's like a lot to be done on social with what you're saying around like the behind the scenes stuff, you know, that stuff does- Right. On social media and things. I understand that like indie films like don't have, you know, a lot of budget or bandwidth to be doing that. Where these like roles, assigned roles, be helpful of a like marketing producer.
Imani:I have been saying this and thinking about this too, of marketing, I think, is going to play a big part a bigger part in, like, budgets too, in production budgets specifically. So when people are, like, raising my like, indie projects are, like, raising money for production and stuff, not only are they gonna be raising money for production, but I think they're also this is how I'd like to try to produce things whenever I get back into that is also raising money for marketing. It's just, very necessary with the way the distribution is today.
Mishu:Yeah. Because I wonder also if it's, like, at the indie super indie level Look, distribution's never guaranteed. So should we pad out our production budget to protect or even assume some form of self distribution? Because right now, you might get financiers that are like, yeah, here's the X amount, produce the thing, and they're praying for festival success, attention, and then it never happens, and now you just wasted, or not wasted, but you spent quarter of a million, half a million, a million dollars on this, and it's on someone's hard drive, and then someone like Ventris Capital or Veritas, whatever that scam kind of aggregator is, Look, yeah, here's $10,000 Can we distribute it? Like, I think, yeah, at the indie level.
Mishu:Also just pricing, like things need to be made, in my opinion, at like a lower budget level.
Imani:Totally. I think that can totally be possible with thinking about, yes, that longer that longer term strategy. Like, well, what if we don't, you know, get this, like, dream sale, like Sundance? But we don't get into Sundance. It wasn't like them because self distribution costs money.
Imani:You know? Right.
Mishu:Right. Yeah. And to me, like, if you had an investor class in your sort of film, then, like, you have, you know, whatever the amount is, this is for marketing and potential self distribution. Then it's already baked in. You can go, look.
Mishu:We have a hundred thousand dollars to spend on social ads, Google SEO, or whatever, and get a little bit more eyes going toward rentals or TVOD or AVOD or whatever versus we just all our money was for production, and now no one wants to distribute it.
Imani:It's like, you're
Mishu:s Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Imani:So, so SOL. Because like, and I see it, you know? I see folks come in our general American Civ and Tech, like, inbox of like, hey, like, we'll like, if you like play this, like, we're super, super indie. We have no money. Like, and I'm like, you know, if we if we do play this, even if I watch this and do like the the film, we play this, no one's gonna come, you know?
Imani:Yeah. Think that's really bliss.
Mishu:Yeah, and we might have talked about it too. It's like the art for art's sake, expression for expression's sake. And if you're doing it, I think, for expression's sake, then it's like, be aware of the the the risk reward and not go like, yeah, I'm gonna spend all of daddy and mommy's money and all this, and versus, yeah, if you're gonna do something that's a little bit experimental, smaller audience, then, I don't know, make it experimental and cheaper than what it needs to be.
Imani:Totally. I think it's gonna require, like, that level of self control too of Right. If there were if you need to take on that model. Because I could just see this too. And this is why I propose, like, oh, what if there are two different escrow escrow accounts and stuff?
Imani:Having, like, a production budget and a marketing budget, I could just see, like, you'll be like, oh, like, let's use some of that marketing money on some screenshot that actually we wanna do. And it's like, no.
Mishu:I also, I think that interview you had around the, I don't remember the name of the production company, but like equity, like it takes a lot of creativity and forethought to build out a series of kind of percentages for like, I think all production should be like, there should be a dedicated crew budget for any net points of like, yeah, this is a 5% crew pool or whatever it'd be. So I was really appreciative to hear someone's doing something that is, to me, what should be the future default of every company or every production, but it just takes a lot of work to do. You're essentially creating arbitrary valuations of like, well, who deserves what from what pool? Which is a hard conversation to have with every person on a production.
Imani:Totally. Yeah. And I love, you know, it's been going around about, like, what the production Sing Sing did with their setup and stuff. And I'd love to, like I think they're going to be publishing, like, more resources you know, what that how that breaks down numbers wise and stuff. Because it was, like, different formulas of like, we're spending more time on the production and that it gets factored into the points too.
Imani:So how that all breaks down because it's definitely like something that I wanna incorporate as well. Like, I think everyone is spending time, especially if they're working at like lower rates for this, like, cash module or something should be benefiting if things pop off.
Mishu:So distribution, is that where your heart's at right now that you're focusing on? Because I know we talked about directing and writing, but kind of where are you at? What's sort of the thing that you wanna be spending more time, like for the next three to six weeks?
Imani:Three to six weeks.
Mishu:Yeah, let's keep it tight. Let's keep it small.
Imani:What am gonna be working on in the next three to six weeks? Oh, yeah. Like, yeah, with with year one. So it's still going through the festivals, like, project specifically. And we'll have just had a the New York premiere at dancers with films New York, and then we're doing another New York screening with the Future of Film is Female that we are, excited about.
Imani:I think I'm going to go out for that one, actually be there, And then I need to put that on my calendar. And then, yeah, talking to some more distributors. Like, we are talking to gravitas about that. And we actually have been, like, you know, upfront with them of, like, okay. We would keep they don't do theatrical, so we, like, talked about that.
Imani:And they're are very open to it of, like, us keeping theatrical rights. So, like, we can do that if we want to, especially with me, like, working as a programmer and having different connections to a ton of different, like, other art houses
Mishu:Mhmm.
Imani:And stuff, it's just, like, we wanna do that. You know? So having potential conversations with, like, maybe other distributors too, like, we've been introed to some others, as we've been showing the film more. But, yeah, definitely focusing on on that. I wish I could, like, give more time to, like, think about, like, the impact side and, like, schools and
Mishu:stuff,
Imani:but also just working on proof as well. And we open up submissions for the third year of the festival, January 1, so thinking about that too, and how we'd have new films this year, which is wild. It feels like
Mishu:we just
Imani:got in the last round of films.
Mishu:How are your sort of, like, energy levels in terms of, like, balance? I'm probably projecting, I imagine you're still pretty ambitious in dipping your toes and your hands in a variety of things. So what's the self talk like, what kind of process do you have to like, navigate, like, do more versus rest?
Imani:It's so hard. Like, you I'm like I feel like in the same way, like, just very curious and wanting to learn, you know, about everything. There's so many things to learn in this industry too because so many things are, like, gate kept. And so once you do, like, learn, like, something new, you're like, oh, wait. Like and then this thing go down, like, rabbit hole.
Imani:Mhmm. So just with, like, being curious and stuff, I find myself having to say no to things, you know? Like, things have come up. Like, I've gotten and I I was intentional in doing this and having this talk to myself of, I moved to LA. I am not doing any producing stuff.
Imani:For a minute, taking a break, taking a little hiatus. And anything on the ground in, like, LA, I was like, I will not be able to, like, bounce up. And so I've, like, gotten requests. People are like, hey. Aren't you a producer?
Imani:I'm like, so's sorry. No. So I've gotten comfortable with like that now. But like, it is hard when like things come up that you are excited about and you're like, oh, I just, I would not have time for it. Or like, it's like looking at things that you are doing and it's like, okay, maybe this has to scale back and then I can do this thing.
Imani:But, like, I've had to be really, really honest with myself about what's on my plate and what I'm able to do and communicating that to other people too. Even things come up with, just balancing out with, like, my job too because, being, like, salary employee, like, I have to just be honest with, like, my workload and that and, like, trying to keep it balanced to around forty hours. We could see usually more like fifty. Right. Which is all of the screening and stuff that we do.
Imani:But, being honest with that too because, like, there's just so much stuff that can be done, like, in programming. But there's always something to research. There's always something to watch. There's always this is. Always that.
Imani:Yeah. So keeping boundaries with that as well. But I've definitely learned a lot about the art of sin now this year.
Mishu:Like, curiosity is such a a delightful intention or delightful kind of, like, perspective because the more I I sometimes I take it for granted how much I've learned about this industry, and that I just assume, like, people know it. And then they're like, oh, no. People like, distribution's very complex, and exhibition's very labyrinthine, and there's so many gatekeepers. Like, you know, even ten years ago, I used to have to read the Sony hack files just to learn, like, what does a distribution agreement, what do these agreements look like?
Imani:Because it was so agreements in the Sony files?
Mishu:Yeah. You can see how much, like, Bill Hader got paid for, I think, Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs or whatever he was in. It's like like So like 2014, '20 '15, I'm like, I wanna just know, how like, the easiest way to learn how the industry works is, like, literally reading contracts. Like, that's my that's my But, yeah, I think curiosity, the sort of the most positive aspect is this delight for just the process and learning, and then the other side is, the more dangerous side is there's just not enough time, a voracious appetite for learning or a voracious appetite for doing. I'm curious about podcasting.
Mishu:I made a bit of a mistake by scheduling fifteen, eighteen conversations for the next two weeks, but it will sate that curiosity. Also, like one of my goals for 2024. I'm like, oh shit, there's like one month left. I better just pilot this idea. I've been thinking about it sort of like, what is it?
Mishu:Meaning, insecurity, and validation? I imagine most high risk industries do have these kind of elements, but how do you set sort of honest conversations with yourself of like, why am I doing what I'm doing? Am I doing this to sort of attain some sort of special status by nature of proximity or by nature of success? I guess I'm just curious, what are your thoughts on the drive or the meaning behind sort of traditional success or growth in at least this industry?
Imani:I think everyone, you know, that comes into this industry wants their work to be seen, you know, by as many people possible. And I think that's totally fair and valid. Like, you want people to see and appreciate the thing that you have worked so hard on.
Mishu:Right.
Imani:And so I think there's like a drag towards that. And I think there's certain things that kind of, like, get wrapped up in that that then people kind of, like, latch onto. Like, I
Mishu:wanna go
Imani:my carpet. I wanna go look at mirrors and da da da da. And that outside thing of it and I'm sure, like, people would say this too, like, you know, with, like, acting. And, like, if you are only acting to, like, be on, like, the red carpet and stuff any of this, that is, like, one short fleeting piece of it that is so disconnected too from the actual making of the thing. That, which is so weird, it'll come like a year later.
Imani:It's like, oh yeah, like now we have to do the promotion for that thing that we did like a year ago. So that's like, that can't be the driver, you know? Also just we have to love the process and the work. Like, I really like thinking about like, different marketing strategies and different ways to reach people and, like, what's going on in the zeitgeist and what are people into now. I'm just, like, very curious about it.
Imani:I like going to a fancy event, but, like, I don't know. It's not my end all be all. And it really is just so fleeting.
Mishu:Yeah. And I think it's also, like, out of your control and all that. So do you find that you've at least settled in or have consistently held sort of an attitude where the effort is the reward, the process is it, or it's 90% of it, 10%, like, yeah, I want the boons of my labor, or are you pretty balanced at talking to yourself, like the labor is enough, being present, being engaged, being curious is enough? I think we're all human, we probably have dreams, but I'm just curious if that's you know, a solid thought process that you've been succeeding with.
Imani:I think I don't think I'm, you know, totally, like or for art's sake.
Mishu:I
Imani:think where, like, I think the film industry in particular is so it's really tough to do that, literally, unless you have, like, just a ton of money because it's
Mishu:A winery that you can sell.
Imani:Yeah. A winery that you can sell. And still be wealthy.
Mishu:Mhmm. Yeah.
Imani:Like, it's very, very tough to do that. And there is this balance of business, which I'm all I'm all for. You know, I I want my stuff to make money. Right.
Mishu:That
Imani:is like and it's a fun code for me to like crack and like come and hack and stuff of like, okay, what's gonna what's gonna hit? What's going to Mhmm. And that's the fun part of it too. It's like, oh, that is the result of people getting like, feeling the drive to get up and go see your film or go see your project or anything. Excites me.
Imani:I think the money stuff is like a reward that comes from that. But it's just like, what can we do to make people, like, get up and go see this thing that we made that we are really proud of? And that's a thing too. I am invested in like the craft of it all of like what makes a really great film? What makes a really great viewing experience?
Imani:And how can that keep getting better? I listened to this podcast episode, for this podcast called, like, Founders, and it does, like, deep dives into, like, back yeah. You probably, like, heard of it. And there's, like, this really great Christopher Nolan episode where he talks about, like, being an artisan and and going to, like, film with that mindset. And I really, really resonate with that of, like, this is a craft and something I wanna be good at and constantly thinking of, like, oh, how can that be better?
Mishu:Right.
Imani:So those two things of like, the thing being great and like working on that craft, and then also getting people to go see the thing.
Mishu:I think that's like great to own up to it because it's like, there is a process to trying to make something financially responsible and financially successful, and you are not opposed to it. You actually, you delight in it, and you're interested, while some people, just like, they just want write, they just want to try, they want to get a check and do that thing, and it's like, all that's out of their hands, but you're a little bit more enjoying and, one I can say, practical minded about that, but I think at the end of the day, it's still, you want to play a game, and in this instance, the game is like, I want to create something that people, consumers want to impart money with, and it becomes financially viable and successful, and some games you lose, some games you win, but you wanna play it, and whether it's right now in maybe the farm league or the minor leagues, and one day maybe the major leagues, but you don't want to be playing a game where folks are like, they think they should be at a major league championship match, but they're just, like, you know, playing with a stick and a ball.
Mishu:Like and it seems like you're more you're passionate about the process too. Like, you might not win, but you wanna play that game.
Imani:I wanna play. I wanna play the game.
Mishu:Nice.
Imani:Totally. Totally. I love the way they put that. Because, yeah, some people don't give a shit. They and that's so And they said, like, they they
Mishu:want Yeah. But the problem is is, like, when people don't give a shit about which, field they want to be playing in, but it almost comes as naive, like you want to be in the Met Museum, you want your art in this museum, but you're not thinking about the challenge is. Yeah, I think that's maybe just the producer's mindset, distribution is always a dilemma, and I know we could probably wrap up, but do you think that storytelling in the next five, ten, fifteen years is gonna continue to get more, it needs meaning driven, eventified, and that's all I think on marketing and publicity of you need to create, you need to know who wants to go to see what. And it's, I think, become harder and harder. I go on Netflix, like, look at all these options I can watch, but I'll go see Wicked and Gladiator, because people are talking about it.
Mishu:So I'm just curious if you think the future it's very hard for an indie to capture any attention unless there is some sort of cultural resonance or there's sort of an event vibe with it. Do you think that trend is gonna continue?
Imani:I think so. And I think that comes with, like, kind of this next era of, like, marketing because, yeah, it's very tough for an indie film to break through it at all. I think eventizing things is the future, and I think there are going to be interesting ways to do that. I don't think you need like I don't think you need like wicked level money to Right. Build some buzz.
Imani:Oops. Who's calling me from Cora? Yeah.
Mishu:Had a call from Yonkers.
Imani:Well, if they need me, they can leave a message. But, yeah. I don't think you need, like, wicked level money. Think And they've kind of, like, grown to a point. But going back to 08/24 of, like, what they were doing in, like, their early days was very
Mishu:Yeah.
Imani:Revolutionary.
Mishu:Yeah. Early social media, like meme y. Instagram posts.
Imani:Very gorilla. And it was fascinating. And they still do some of it. Yeah. They still do some of it.
Imani:I think that was really special. I think some new players are probably gonna come into the space, know, trying out some interesting things there too. But I think that going back to that excites me and eventizing
Mishu:me through Yeah. I love the idea of distribution, but I just don't know if I have the heart for the amount of work it takes to really put your ear to the ground and listen to what's gonna grab attention and get people excited, because I think fundamentally, has it's about the storyteller, I think, and, like, we wanna go to this campfire, but if you have, like, a a near neighboring community that's like, yeah, this hyping up the storyteller, which is the distributor, like, then you're gonna wanna sit around and listen to it. But just because there's a fire, ain't you know, Amy are gonna listen.
Imani:Yeah. It's something to it is a lot of work. And I think to going back to what we saying about, like, the specific, like, marketing producer.
Mishu:Right.
Imani:I think because some distributors do, like, a great job with some campaigns and stuff. I think there is a disconnect sometimes with, like, the marketing person who's, like, at the distribution company and then the, like, film team, you know, because they're working on Yeah. A bunch of stuff. They're working on a bunch of campaigns. Whereas, like, marketing producer person is just thinking about that film Right.
Imani:And the campaign of that film. So I think that gap can be of filled because I feel like you'll hear pushback from filmmakers and stuff of like, this wasn't what like, this isn't what they're doing isn't really like, you know, selling the mission of my film, you know? So having something on the background would be helpful.
Mishu:I think that'd an interesting dedicated role for sure, especially to humble the filmmaker and kind of put things in perspective, because it's like, yeah, these marketing experts at distribution companies, if I trust their expertise, they're aware of counter programming, what the slate is for the next fourteen months is gonna look like, maybe an April date with this sort of rom com y vibe, even though your thing might be a little bit more moody, it's gonna be a navigate. Like, what do we think is going to capture the attention?
Imani:Yeah. Yeah.
Mishu:Before sending you off with a little creative prompt, I just wanted to say thank you for listening to Mischief and Mastery. If you enjoyed the show, please rate it and leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support does mean a lot. Until next time, keep taking care of yourself, your lightness, curiosity, and sense of play. And now for a little mischief motivation.
Mishu:So that was the first conversation of mischief and mastery. A little rough around the edges from my side. Did not stick the landing. Just kind of ended the recording. So thank you for putting up with that.
Mishu:We're gonna end with a little bit of, creative prompt, and here you go inspired by some of the conversations around distribution. So for this, think about events, and the prompt is imagine a single night screening, a one night only screening that would prompt people to just drop everything and attend. What's the q and a about? What's the lighting? Who are the special guests?
Mishu:And just spend a few minutes sketching out what kind of experience you want the audience to have, after seeing the screening you created, whether it's a short film, a feature, a series of shorts. This is just a prompt to get you to think about the audience you're serving. So that's that. Spend a few minutes, jot down what the vibe of the evening is, how do you want the audience to feel when they exit, and feel free to loop in some of the things you're working on and how that could fit in. So that's the prompt.
Mishu:I'll keep playing around with some of these at the end of each episode, hopefully, to inspire you to just do that one little thing every day. Alright. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you at the next one. And I'll try and speak more and even better.