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Tales from the PROS is hosted by Michael Georgiou, Co-Founder, and Eric Lawrence, Director of Growth at Imaginovation, an award-winning app and software development company. Each episode dives into honest, unscripted conversations, hard-earned lessons, and educational insight into how to help bridge the gap between technology and people.
If youβre a founder, exec, or innovator trying to navigate the tech world without getting burned, this podcast is your no-BS roadmap. Through real talk, personal stories, and insights from the front lines, youβll pick up smarter ways to build software, steer clear of common mistakes, and choose the right partners in a crowded, often confusing space.
Whether youβre scaling a startup, driving digital change at a larger company, or just love keeping up with tech innovation, Tales from the PROS brings you straight-shooting advice and inspiration without the fluff.
Michael Georgiou (00:01)
Hey everyone, welcome back to Tales from the Pros podcast. I'm Michael Georgiou the co-founder at Imaginovation and your host, joined by my co-host and our director of growth, Eric Lawrence. Today's episode gets personal, a little personal, because we're talking about something many high performers feel, but rarely say out loud. It's that constant pressure to do more, be more, improve everything all at the same time.
We believe in something called Kaizen. In fact, it's been one of our core values at Imagine Ovation since day one. But what we've also learned is that even a mindset as powerful as continuous improvement can become a trap. If we never give ourselves permission to pause and reflect, sometimes it can be very dangerous. This episode is about ambition, growth, and the importance of making space for clarity and wellbeing in the midst of the hustle.
when it comes to building and growing a technology business. So we'll kind of get started. Hey, Eric, how you doing, man?
Eric Lawrence (01:06)
Doing great. Always a good way to get real and raw on a Friday.
Michael Georgiou (01:11)
Let's do it, man. Let's get real and raw. man. Yeah, no, this β is a cool topic, you know, I think for this podcast where, you know, our audience can β relate not just with when it comes to like software development or tech or agencies, you know, and making money through apps and strategy and all that good stuff, but
Eric Lawrence (01:14)
Hahaha
Michael Georgiou (01:41)
kind of gets into, β I think, a little bit more of a deeper level β that we're human beings, right? And we can all get overwhelmed when we're going too fast, we're running too fast. And sometimes it's just very vital to take a step back or even just pause and reflect and make sure that you have your stuff together, mentally, emotionally, physically, all those things are important.
Eric Lawrence (02:07)
Yeah. And I think it's, it's a little hardwired in us. β everybody started at some point. I remember all the way back to when I first started in 2013, into the kind of the real professional life. One of the very first books that I was assigned at the new company I went to was good to great. And the whole point of good to great is that good is the enemy of great.
So the mindset of what are you doing to constantly improve, constantly progress yourself forward so that you don't, you don't become complacent. And I think we want to emphasize that complacency is, is not a good thing by any means, but there can be that trap of when you're always pursuing improvement, improvement, improvement, there's a toll that it can take. So how can you navigate that with delicacy and approach it in the right mentality?
Michael Georgiou (03:00)
Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah, man. mean, I remember there was a time back in 2017 through 2019 where we were growing exponentially fast here at Imagine Ovation. in 2018 and 2019, I mean, I think we hired and combined with US people and even
our offshore team, think it was like over 40 people, something like that. Maybe even more, but let's just say 40 to 50 people. And that was in the midst of about 12 to 18 months. And I'll tell you, at least me personally, it was incredibly difficult, right? Because we were trying to innovate, we had all these...
systems and tools right to be followed, process documentation and β you know every person that we hired of course had a role like head of sales or you know director of marketing, director of engineering, β business development rep, all that right, developers, software developers and it was just so much in such a small time frame that it was very overwhelming for me and I think even Pete my partner
But at least for me, could speak for myself. It was difficult. It was probably one of the hardest times. β Those two years, I would say, two, maybe even call it three years, β were, I mean, man, it was so difficult. Sometimes I felt lost because it was so hard to just scale that quickly β along with just me being head of
kind of our marketing efforts and sales at that time, know, our expenses were rising so quickly just with the human overhead, right, salaries and tools and everything like that and offices that we opened. We had a couple offices that we opened and it was just skyrocketing, right? And which was exciting. We were all really exciting, really excited and just loved kind of that.
opportunity to thrive and say like, man, we're making it, we're successful, we're growing, and that was all awesome. And I think we had to go through that, but at the same time, it was just very difficult for me. I felt lost. I didn't know sometimes how to cope because I was really trying to β figure out how could I manage all these people and their roles. that's the thing, right? When you're kind of leading a tech company,
β you know, tech is moving so fast, so rapidly. So we had to continuously hire because of the projects that we were getting in and all that stuff. Right. But at the same time, think, I think we kind of, we, we over hired in my opinion. and we were just scaling way too quickly. β and sometimes I was even wondering, like, man, like, I, I know we have to, we have to, do the work and all these things. Right. But I, I, in my opinion, what I would have done differently is kind of like.
take a step back and just pause and just be like, okay, do we really need all these people, all these tools? Let's really assess and be self-aware, be aware of the business operationally, financially, and just make sure that we're able to cope with this type of growth. And growth is great, but like I said, it shouldn't be at the cost of your mental health.
Eric Lawrence (06:44)
That's well thought.
Michael Georgiou (06:45)
And yeah, that's what I'll say about that. But at the same time, I'm better for it. So is my partner, we're all better for it. think even Zach was there at that time. I mean, it was fun, but it was also very, very stressful. And it's not a way that I would like to work. And now, you know, the way we operate our business, as you know, β we're a lot more intentional, we're purpose driven, we really think and strategize before we do things.
The last thing you ever want to do is be impulsive because you're growing. That's where you make a lot of mistakes. So you've got to just sometimes take your time, even if you think, I need to hire, I need to purchase this, I need to invest. It's not going anywhere. It's going to stay there. And if you have to miss out on some business for you to keep your business stable and scalable β and to keep yourself stable and scalable.
Eric Lawrence (07:29)
Yeah.
Michael Georgiou (07:41)
and balanced as much as you can, it's worth doing.
Eric Lawrence (07:46)
Yeah. And I think a lot of other businesses are, especially in technology have reached that point where they've been scaling so much. They stop and they look around and they realize, well, do we need all of the talent that we have here? β are we just being wasteful and how we're allocating our resources? So you've seen it happen at, β
X once it got acquired, it massively downsized. You see it a lot of other companies. So I think it's just a reality in the tech space that sometimes the focus can be so much growth that when you take a step back and you realize what do we actually need, you can be a much, much leaner than what you actually are.
And Michael, will say like from as far as stories go, would, one of the previous companies that I was at, β I think a good example of the over pursuit of improvement was, β probably the best example was when, you know, our core service that was really doing well for us, that built the backbone of the company over the past 10 plus years. β there was an opportunity to diversify and go after new
potential channels at that company. And the organization went for it. They were excited. said, Hey, let's, let's expand what we're doing. We can cross sell our clients. can do, you know, go after this, this area of opportunity. And what ended up happening was they had to hire new people and, β they had to put a lot of their marketing and their sales efforts to start driving new clients in these areas. And they even shifted some of the best talent that was in the core service over to these new ones, to
Michael Georgiou (09:02)
Thank
Eric Lawrence (09:26)
to kind of get the best and the brightest, so to speak. And what ended up happening was that, some of the biggest clients became unhappy with the service that they were receiving in the core area and they left. And then, β what ends up happening is you get a year down the road. This opportunity is not as great as you originally thought it was. And your main business took a hit because of it. And that was a big learning lesson for all of us at that time. So
It's one of those things where, sometimes the shiny object, β that you're looking to go after and improve doesn't always work out.
Michael Georgiou (10:02)
Yeah. Yeah. And that was that that was one of your previous previous jobs before. Yeah. Yeah. It seems like a lot of companies, not just, you know, agencies like us, but I mean, millions of companies around around the world. They they go through that. Right. And it's a good problem to have. Right. And it goes back to, you know, your values as a company as well, you because some people, right, they don't
Eric Lawrence (10:09)
Correct. Yeah.
Michael Georgiou (10:32)
they don't have this mindset where they're always trying to improve. I know a lot of people that are, they do have that mindset that we have, β at least, you know, that me and Pete had when we started this company in 2011, like our founder's mindset. And one of the values that we had was Kazan, which is continuous improvement. And it's connected to that story I shared a couple of minutes ago and same with your story, right? Where we were always,
obsessed with trying to look at ourselves and our business, ourselves, because we were the business, right? At that time, at least being founders, this was 13, 14 years ago, where we're like, you know what? Let's try to improve 1 % every day or a little bit every day, every week. And over time that compounds and you're just going to get better and better and better. And listen, it was working, right? And for many companies out there that have that mentality,
It's always improvement, always progression, progression. Like Tony Robbins talks about this. says, β if you're not progressing, you're dying. He might say in some different words, and no one get mad at me if that's not the right word, but the right quote. But in essence, it's the same. β And that's what we had, right? And I think, you know, when you're really like trying to focus on improvement, sometimes you're gonna get to a place where you
just can crash. mean, bro, we're human beings. You know what I mean? So we're gonna crash sometimes and we're gonna make big mistakes and that causes burnout, whatever it might be. It could be from financial, it could be operational, it could be all those things connected and that influences, right? That's connected to your personal life, to your own life after 5 p.m. or whatever.
But being an entrepreneur, your business, your day does not end at five, and neither did ours. So, you know, that's the thing, right? With having this mindset of continuous improvement, β you know, it helped us to grow, but at the same time, it's almost like we had to go through that struggle, or at least me, β where I had to be more intentional with everything that I was doing. I had to organize my day better.
be more efficient with how I worked, that got passed along to our people. And Pete did the same thing. Pete was amazing at organizing and delegating it and, you know, β kind of β trying to balance things within the company. But like I said, sometimes you have to go through those struggles and obstacles with having that progress, continuous mindset, β you know, kind of value. And I think that helps us to become better leaders.
β you know, so I don't regret it. Absolutely not. I, it's something that sometimes you have to go through those, those highs and lows, man. That's, that's how you learn. That's how you become who you are. You know,
Eric Lawrence (13:40)
Yeah. Was there
ever a moment for you where it was kind of like a wake up call where you said, I'm just completely burnt out because I know it's so easy to get tunnel visioned and you're in it. And it's just, kind of forget that you're just grinding away every day until there's just kind of that, that aha moment.
Michael Georgiou (13:53)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
There were several of them. β You know, the thing is with me at least, it's a little unique because it depends on who's listening to this in a sense. It's like everyone's in a different situation. Someone could be at a small company, let's just say, who has a lot of responsibilities and they're working so hard, they're growing so quickly within their career or within the business.
that they end up getting burnt out, right? Because they're trying to grow and scale and thrive and succeed and do so many things, you know, and that's the thing. So it can kind of depend, β at least for me, being an entrepreneur and a founder of this company, β there were a lot of those moments where I literally would be, you know, working.
from home or from the office, I'm trying to remember, there were a couple of times where, bro, I literally got down on my knees and I started praying, because I was so exhausted β and just so mentally burnt out because I wasn't taking care of myself. I didn't take time to go on walks or I didn't take time to just...
do things that made me happy. And obviously the business makes me happy, but there's always a goal with that, right? There's an expectation. There are outcomes that need to be achieved with that, right? Because people are depending on you, your customers, your employees, right? Your community. So yeah, I mean, there were several moments that it really dropped me to my knees within those years. And it just kind of gave, it was a sign for me saying like, Mike, you need to
You need to β do things to really improve your life and make you happy. β That will take away that stress, create more balance in your life. People say, hey, there's no such thing as balance when it comes to work life. I mean, it's all subjective, but at least from my story, that's all I can speak to. Yeah, that's what happened. β Sometimes you get dropped to your knees and you're like, you need to make a change, man.
Eric Lawrence (16:20)
Yeah.
Michael Georgiou (16:25)
You need to try to do things differently and do things that make you happy. And if that means, you know, β working out more or doing things, know, meditation, prayer, or doing things that are gonna help balance you out, β you know, talking to support your family or whoever's there for you. All those things are very important and sometimes more important, I mean, more important than work and then making money. Because without this and without this, without your health, you can't work.
You what mean? You
Eric Lawrence (16:55)
Yeah.
Michael Georgiou (16:55)
can't be effective. So.
Eric Lawrence (16:58)
And I do feel fortunate for when I got started towards the end of 2022, uh, that had been really the point where you and Pete started growing the business sustainably, where you would learn your lesson. You'd say, okay, we know how to grow this the right way. We're being very intentional. We're building this, uh, in a mindful way where we're not going to over hire. Uh, and we know exactly the, the team members that we need to succeed as we continue to grow as an organization. So.
I mean, I'm grateful for having come here at the right time and be a part of that phase.
Michael Georgiou (17:34)
Yeah. I mean, for you, Eric, you like you being involved at multiple growing companies, not just here and now with us, just even, I mean, even in your past, because you have a lot of experience in leadership and sales and even marketing, right? And different departments, were there any sort of kind of pinnacle moments where you're like, man, like I need to start really thinking about
β Not necessarily quitting or leaving, right? And if that's right for you or whatever, that's your journey, right? That's your story. But anything that you can kind of relate to that got you on your knees in a sense, where it allowed you to make certain positive changes to give you that sense of balance.
Eric Lawrence (18:23)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I definitely think so. There, there've been, I think one of the more challenging situations that I've run into at other organizations is that there can be β a tendency, especially on the sales side, because sales, sales and marketing need to be in lockstep and yeah.
Michael Georgiou (18:38)
me
Yep, we to be aligned for sure. yeah.
Eric Lawrence (18:45)
And there have been situations in client services needs to be in lockstep at any B2B organization β or service organization. They need to be in lockstep with marketing and sales as well. β where we would get in these situations where, β marketing is running all of their kind of their promotion towards services that sales can't be able to sell, β because there's a lack of, of resources and bandwidth there.
So we're getting all these leads that, don't correlate and the sides don't talk to each other. And then what ends up happening is, β specifically in the areas that I am and for sales is that when you start seeing that there's poor performance, there's this tendency to panic and change everything and kind of divert course and start, start fresh and start something entirely new. then
you really need to give yourself time to ramp up. And when that struggles, you panic again, you start over and you start over. So I think when it comes to like improvement, consistency, it's gotta be consistency. And when you say Kaizen that rings true so much because Kaizen is all about small changes that make things better. Yeah. And that like for me, I
Michael Georgiou (20:00)
That's right, small changes over time. That's exactly right.
Eric Lawrence (20:08)
When I was first starting out, because you asked me like, what were the moments? It really like, it had to be kind of like a buildup of moments, you have to become more seasoned because when you first get started, you're mostly taking orders and β you kind of have to learn the ropes of the business and know what works and just get better at sales, get better at marketing to the point where you realize, why are we doing this? Why are we banging our heads against the wall?
Michael Georgiou (20:35)
So true, Yeah. Yeah. I think he definitely had a good point. I we've been through that, you know that, like, and I know a lot of businesses can relate to this. Sometimes when you're trying to always run, you're trying to go so fast. And sometimes it could be even, you know, the, I mean, the market that we're in, at least for us being in tech, you know, there's a very oversaturated level of competition.
β And that's great. That pushes us to improve and to β try to be the best that we can in this space. β But at the same time, when you're running so fast and let's just say you set a process for your business, for your people, let's call it a sales process, something that you and I can relate to with the sales department.
If you have the sales process that you launched maybe six months ago, eight months ago, but then due to the struggles that the market gives you or even the struggles that are happening internally in your organization, it doesn't mean that you always have to pivot that entire process. least this is like, I want to be careful with this because this is what we've experienced. It doesn't mean this is the same for everybody, but hopefully some people can resonate and relate to this.
basically goes back to what you saying about consistency and kind of waiting for, not waiting, but letting things β tell you whether they're going to succeed or not succeed. So with sales processes, for example, if you're launching it six or eight months, and let's just say there's these struggles that are coming at you, you don't want to be impulsive and just have to change all of it, right? And then that creates more stress, having to learn that new process and
and then adapt and then try to let that succeed. And you know what I mean? Sometimes you just gotta give it enough time, right, to actually work instead of just going and changing everything. And sometimes, yes, you do have to change things. Of course you do. That's part of, that's the nature of life and businesses change, right? But you don't wanna do it based on factors that, you know,
might be outside factors all the time. Like you want to do it with intention and just being careful with it, doing it strategically, knowing what are the costs to it, what are the repercussions and what are the benefits, you know? And just doing it carefully instead of just going and switching it over β or completely changing it, shifting it. So, you know.
Eric Lawrence (23:22)
Yeah, exactly. And if you
think about it, as it relates back to a lot of technology companies, or, SAS companies, that can happen too, where they, a company wants to completely change the vision or the purpose of what their, their product does. β because they make us, you know, they say, Hey, we have to improve. have to change this entirely. And then, you know, they go through all of this cost and time, β to
Michael Georgiou (23:29)
Yeah.
Eric Lawrence (23:50)
make the product the way that they want it to. and then they, they release it and realize there actually was no demand for, for the change that they built it towards. So I think it rings true for a lot of people within, β know, SAS.
Michael Georgiou (23:59)
Right. Yep.
Yeah, Yeah, man. mean, it's a very, very common problem, you know, with progression. When it comes to progression, it comes to just continuous improvement. I love it. And it's always going to be a part of our values. That's what makes our company great, right? And that's what I think makes each one of us great. β You know, I love each and every β person that's in our company because everyone's really
trying to improve themselves and improve the business. And that's amazing. β But at the same time, I think it's important to β make sure that you're happy with yourself, with how you're doing things, and making sure that you're mentally all there and that you're taking care of yourself and taking care of your people. And that goes back to kind of like culture, right?
is instilling this kind of continuous improvement within your culture, but at the same time, knowing that, we're human beings, Shit happens. Stuff happens, right? β Life happens. And there's always gonna be struggles and obstacles that come, and you have to be empathetic as a leader and be compassionate β to your people. And I believe that...
We definitely are. mean, you're managing a couple of people now, Eric, and I'm obviously managing different people. It's just something that I try to make sure that I instill, and I know Pete instills it as well, and so does Zach. It's, I think, a critical component to happiness in what you're doing with work and being happy with yourself. Because if you're not happy with yourself,
and you're going always way too fast, you're just going to burn out, You're going to burn out. β I've heard stories of, I have actually a friend that almost didn't make it. He almost passed away actually. This was a long time ago, but he was running multiple businesses and some small, kind of a bunch of small businesses.
It was, I had a talk with him and I remember and I'm like, I'm like, man, like you need to really slow down because you know, trying to do way too much, you're going to end up in the hospital. And he was, he ended up in the hospital and that ended up reshaping his entire life. And I hope, I hope he's, I hope he's doing much better now. And I think, I think he is, you know, she got to, you got to take care of yourselves, you know, while you're growing and evolving and, and you know.
just kind of going through work and business and all that good stuff. Yeah, no, I mean, Eric, with you, how do you think people should handle themselves when it comes to kind of β their ambition, whether they are starting a business up,
Eric Lawrence (27:02)
Exactly. Yeah, everything's a balance.
Michael Georgiou (27:27)
or they're working within a company or even if it's just a founder or something like that, what would you say are some tips for people to try to just kind of slow down a little bit, at least in the work environment?
Eric Lawrence (27:46)
Yeah, I think the key word to all this is intentional. You have to be intentional about it and ideally not obsessive either. And what I mean by that is, β when you start to burn out on improvement, it's, it's usually it's, it's one of two things either you become obsessive about it. And I, this can relate to anything. This could be professionally. This could be if you are, β let's say it's January 1st and you start a new diet and your diet,
Michael Georgiou (27:56)
Yeah.
Eric Lawrence (28:17)
limits 99 % of what you love to eat. That's never going to be sustainable. And the same goes towards what you're doing at work. If, if what you start doing is something that you absolutely hate, it's just not going to be sustainable for you. β but intentional, I say that in that, β when you're trying to improve things, I think it's, it's fair to look at it and say, what can I be doing to improve what
whatever we're doing within our organization or department or me personally on a quarterly basis, because you can put your mind to it. You can write down your goal, keep track of it, put together some measurable sort of β kind of the metrics as to determine, have I been successful at improving in these areas? And then stick to it and keep track of it as you go through it.
Thankfully we, we have magic tests that helps us keep track of that as well. But that's the idea is that, β being intentional helps prevent you from waking up in the middle of the night and saying, Hey, I need to avert course and try this new thing. And then you're just forever like a dog chasing cars on the highway. You never really get better at anything. Cause you, just keep trying to chase all these different things. So being intentional, setting what it is that you want to do for the quarter.
Michael Georgiou (29:31)
You
Yeah.
Eric Lawrence (29:43)
going through it saying, did I hit the marks that I want to, should I continue on this path or should I consider changing and pursuing something that I think is going to be the new priority.
Michael Georgiou (29:54)
β Actually, man, you make a great point, but kind of before we close out, but I love what you said just on a kind of more on a really professional level about kind of testing and validating different things that you're doing at work, right? Whether it's how you operate yourself, how you manage your schedule, how you're managing your calendar, how productive you are, and then also how
how things are working within the company, right? In your department, sales, marketing, tech, operations, whatever it is, β before kind of panicking, right? Like you said, if things aren't going well, right? And you losing your head, it's always good to test and validate and just try to go slowly, right? And have that patience, do it with patience and just know that things can always be fixed, right? But it's very important to...
maintain our mental well-being, our physical well-being, taking care of ourselves, our people, β instilling that in the culture of whatever it is that you're building. β yeah, being purpose-driven and intentional and just sometimes pausing and taking a step back β and thinking about why am I implementing this new strategy that's β making me lose my mind? And I think that
that can reframe the whole picture. And I know that we've done it and that's allowed us to grow more than ever these last couple of years and it's really helped. And I think this is a very, it's a very powerful story, powerful testimony to β anyone that's kind of gone through this and going through the craziness of work and trying to hit goals and trying to make money and hire and all that good stuff. So I think it's very, very, very good.
Eric Lawrence (31:23)
Yeah, absolutely.
Yep. And really I think
that's what's to your point enabled the success to happen is that we've been doing improve micro improvements as we go piece by piece, stacking the winds up. And that's what matters because we're not abandoning what works because I know that can be the urge. Sometimes you see, say, well, what if we could do it this way? Couldn't that change everything? And then sometimes I know we've had to do this in, β
Michael Georgiou (31:59)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, true.
Eric Lawrence (32:16)
you know, executive level meetings where we take a step back and say, guys, was this ever really a problem? And most of the time we're like, well, no, actually it's, one of our greatest assets.
Michael Georgiou (32:27)
Why are we this meeting? Like guys, like
what's going, like, yeah, even sometimes we've had that with our, with our, you know, our people were like, wait a minute. Yeah, that's, no, it's not really a problem. Like, why the hell are we doing this? But yeah, we have.
Eric Lawrence (32:44)
But we, we've, we've learned to catch that trap and what we've been
doing is, β doing these, these micro improvements, these Kaizans over time that just makes our process and our deliverables and how we operate better and better and better. And, and I think that's, that's what it's all about. β and, and actually I do want to, β give a shout out to today's sponsor magic task, because it's one of the tools that we use when we're talking about.
keeping track of what our day-to-days are, whether it's just your normal tasks or maybe it's the goals that you're going for. That's what we use magic task for. It's a simplified and gamified task management system. And it's really meant to be there to get away from a lot of the other task management systems that are big clunky do about 2000 % more than you need them to. If you want something that's simplified and fun to use because it's gamified, that is what
Magic task is. And speaking of Kaizans, we are looking to do a new phase of development to make it even more gamified to really add a lot of extra fun to it and make the mobile version even better. So be sure to check it out. You can see it at magictask.io.
Michael Georgiou (33:56)
And I Magic Task is definitely a tool and a of a system that's allowed us to align within each person in the company and increase transparency and just manage our day to day much better and kind of β have fun while doing it. So what's the point of always working and doing things if you can't enjoy it? So you got to do that right. β No, this is awesome, Eric. I really appreciate kind of the stories and yeah, I think
I think a lot of people can really learn from this. There's a lot of, I think people, entrepreneurs and just employees and companies that are going through that right now and hopefully this can serve them. So, β but yeah, I really appreciate everyone. Thank you so much for listening. Michael Giorgio, your host and co-founder here at Imagine Ovation, along with Eric Lawrence, my co-host. And until next time, thank you guys. Thank you everyone.
Eric Lawrence (34:51)
All right, bye.